01/07/2013 Newsnight


01/07/2013

Jeremy Paxman with the latest on the unrest in Egypt. Plus, payoffs to BBC staff, Gordon Brown on talking to the Taliban, the march of online courses and finding Edward Snowden.


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Transcript


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gives the President a deadline to listen to the people calling on him

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to go. The most powerful force in the country has chosen a side. How

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long can the President last? We will hear from both sides of a

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divided country. And welcome to Dudley in the

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Midlands, the equivalent of every single television license from here

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was spent on kiss-offs to unwanted managers.

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Perhaps this man can explain it to us? Could massive on-line learning

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make universities redundant? Giving stuff away from free, who can have

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a problem with that? Except what if this is the big disruptive

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technology that is about to rip through higher education in the way

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that MP3s did through musics or Amazon did through book selling.

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The NSA whistleblower, Edward Snowden, accused America of

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illegally persecuting him. Is he about to claim asylum from that

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nice Mr Putin. The two girls shot by the Taliban

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for seeking an education, one of them came to the UK today where she

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met the United Nations education envoy.

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We are not and must not negotiate away the right of girls to have

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education in the search for a settlement. This wasn't how the

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Arab Spring was supposed to turn out. The protestors have given two

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days to bend to the Government's will or what? President Morsi was

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the popular vote of the people and that was last year, now they are

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demanding all sorts of other things off him. It seems there there is

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general agreement the stakes are very high ind deed. Once again

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hundreds of thousands of protestors have taken to Egypt's streets, and

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the country appears so divided some are predicting civil war. Another

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uprising, to correct one they say didn't work. And now most likely

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another intervention by Egypt's military in the country's politics.

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Hundreds of thousands are on the streets of Cairo, as they were

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during the Arab Spring two-and-a- half years ago and again they have

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been backed by the Armed Forces, just as they were then.

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Today Egypt's military chief described the current protests as

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an unprecedented expression of the people's will. He gave the

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Government 48 hours to respond. For the crowd that was already a

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victory. I think people are very jubilant

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about what the military had just stated about their support to the

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people's demands. And people are celebrating already five minutes

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after that statement. But there is one big difference between today's

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events and those of February 2011. Then the crowd, and the army,

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brought down a dictator, Hosni Mubarak, now the target is a

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datdically elected leader, the first in -- democratically elected

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leader, the first in Egypt's history, the Muslim Brotherhood's

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Steven Morris. A year ago many of these protestors voted for him.

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Today the Brotherhood's headquarters were ransacked and set

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aloyalty. The people say President Morsi has failed to keep his

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promises. First of all he had a programme of 100 days in which he

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would restore security, change the scene economically, bring around

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$200 billion in US involvement. We have seen none, we have only seen a

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loans policy that would put my kids in debt for the next 20 years. The

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other thing he did not take the measures we asked him to take to

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cleanse and purge the judiciary and security that was always there

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fighting behind the scenes. Brotherhood is accused of acting

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only to advance its own people and its own Islamist agenda. It pushed

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through a new constitution that many secular or liberal Egyptians

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feel won't protect them. The Coptic Christian minority in particular

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worries that the society is already becoming more Islamised.

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Prosecutions for allegedly insulting Islam are on the rise.

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Egypt's battered tourist industry was horrified recently when the

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former member of a radical Islamist group, linked to a 1997 terrorist

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attack on holiday makers was nominated governor of the resort of

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Luxor. It is the demand for daily bread, one of the key drivers of

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the 2011 protests, that is the problem on the poverty line. Living

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standards have dropped massively, food costs more, petrol and cooking

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gas are running short. Since 2011 foreign investment has fallen by

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56%. Foreign exchanges reserves are down by more than 60%. Inflation

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has climbed to more than 8% this year, while unemployment has

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reached 13%. So what will the army do now? The

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Brotherhood's new constitution aimed to safeguard military

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interests, but that can't compensate for decades of Embley

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anyoneity between the -- imknitity between the forces and the

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Government. The military says if he doesn't respond in two days they

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will come up with their own Road Map of the They will have to

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compromise with the opposition, run for presidential elections or sit

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with them and compromise on some sort of solution. If the President

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refuses I think what will happen is the army will directly intervene

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and take over for another transition period.

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And if the Brotherhood resists what would in effect be a coup, they are

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the most organised disciplined political force in Egypt, and they

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believe they have got democratic legitimacy on their side.

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safeguards for this process to be successful, some negotiations have

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to happen or has to take place with the Muslim Brotherhood, some sort

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of settlement for a safe exit and safe and peaceful transition. Now

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that is very critical and important and I think the only party that is

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capable of doing so is the military, if they are not really interested

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in power. But the potential for violence is there. Some Morsi

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supporters have already come armed with sticks to their own rival

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demonstrations. You had Algeria in 1992, Sudan 1989,

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many of these experiences suggest if you remove the elected President,

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with his supporters on the ground or an elected institutions with the

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supporters on the ground ready to fight with him, then you are

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descending into a vie lent situation. -- Violent situation.

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Whatever happens this crisis is setting two of the revolutionary

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forces, liberals and Islamists against each other. Despite all the

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hopes that accompanied their joint victory in the Arab Spring two

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years ago, it is clear now neither of them have understood what

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democracy involves. We are joined now from Cairo by the

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Egyptian novelist, Adhaf Soueif, and here in the studio by Rabaa al-

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Adawiya, a political activist and supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood.

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You can't really be pleased that the army has intervened in politics

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again in your country can you? of course it would have been a lot

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better if President Morsi had lived up to the expectations that were

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placed on him. He made promises and he failed to keep them. He didn't

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even look like he was trying to put the country on the path that the

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country demanded. So really it was a continuation of Mubarak policies

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added to it was a level of inefficiency that was incredibly

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dangerous. Why what is happening is happening. I really wish it would

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have been otherwise. Welcome to democracy, politicians promise

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things they don't happen. That, I'm afraid is how democracy very often

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works. Do you accept that President Morsi has failed to deliver on many

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of his promises so far? I disagree with that. I think President Morsi

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is the first democratically elected civilian leader for Egypt, ever

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since the Pharaohs. We haven't had a democratically elected leader, we

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don't know democracy as you mentioned. I think we need time.

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Corruption has been rooted for decades, corruption has been in the

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Government. It took so long, President Morsi people have been

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wanting him out of office before he has even taken his place. There are

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20 one-million marches called against him. The first one is less

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than 40 days after he began in office. People wanted him to fail

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before beginning. Some people went out and said "down with the coming

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President", before the presidential elections. Some people wanted him

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down. Together, as revolutionaries, we actually should be wanting to

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build the country together. We need to come together, find a compromise

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and build the country. It is a worrying precedent dent, isn't it,

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when things -- precedent, isn't it, when things become difficult and

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people are glad that the military intervenes? Well you know I would

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like to make two points here, one is that President Morsi, yes, of

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course he was elected through the ballot box. But we really need to

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remember, as he didn't, that he came in on the back of a revolution.

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So the country is still in a state of revolution. It has made its

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wishes very clear that it wants to move towards human rights and it

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wants to move towards social justice. The fact that a President

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who comes on the back of a revolution and doesn't fulfil,

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doesn't even move towards either of these two aims is very serious.

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Let's also remember that there were five million who voted for

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President Morsi in the first round, he added eight million to those, on

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the basis of very, very clear promises. He knew that these eight

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million were not really his constituency, but they voted for

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him because of the promises and because of the very difficult

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circumstances that the country was in, so out of a wish to move

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forward. So basically to back out on those is really serious. The

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other thing is, we have inherited a lot of baggage from the Mubarak era,

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and the country can't afford four years of not moving forward at all.

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And there is a flaw, I think, in the democratic process where if

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things, I mean I think people need to think, legal minds need to think

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about how you can break a contract when it is clearly not working.

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Fine, so what do you want him to do, to step down? I think, I personally

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think that the best thing for him now would be to show some open-

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mindedness and inclusiveness which he has failed to show so far, I

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would really like him to stay as President. I think that would be

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better for the country and better for the unity of the country. But I

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would like to see the association of the Muslim Brotherhood disbanded

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it has served its function, it has no place in the political life of

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the country. A lot of his problems have been because he's being

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perceived to be listening to the supreme guide of the Muslim

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Brotherhood rather than his constituency, which is the Egyptian

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people. There is now the Freedom and Justice Party, born of the

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Muslim Brotherhood, he can be a card-carrying member of that, but

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the Muslim Brotherhood association should be disbanded. That is the

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first thing. I will interrupt you because our guest here in the

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studio is looking wry and distressed at your suggestion that

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the Muslim Brotherhood be disbanded, don't you think it has served its

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purpose? As a member of the Muslim Brotherhood personally, I think, I

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need the right to actually be a part of the Muslim Brotherhood if I

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wish so. I need to be what I think I want to be. This revolution, I

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first met you when you came to visit Cambridge, I met you straight

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after the revolution in 2011 and we were together wanting democracy and

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positive change. We wanted as you said, human rights, we wanted civil

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rights, we wanted everyone to do whatever they wanted to do within

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the boundaries of law. So I don't think anyone should say what the

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Muslim Brotherhood should or shouldn't do, as long as it should

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be within the boundaries of law, that Egyptian people should pass

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through the parliament. I think we need to go to the parliamentary

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elections and instead of taking everything to the street. Because

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what happened today, I got a phone call on the way to the studio today

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and millions of Muslim Brotherhood supporters are gathering now,

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initially they didn't want to gather yesterday because they

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didn't want confrontation, but I think the BBC report before the

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beginning of the show they failed to show the extent of the support

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the mother brotherhood still has on the streets. Thank you very much

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both of you. People who work at the BBC have

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been aware for years that at a senior level there was a gravy

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train running through the building, a board which most of the staff

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would never be able to -- aboard which most of the staff would never

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be be able to scramble. But the generosity of the license fee

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payers' money only became clear today after a public investigation

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into the pay-offs for senior figures. The BBC has been deep low

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shocked by the disclosures. Hardly any of the beneficiaries have

:14:40.:14:50.

lifted their snouts out of the trough to make any comment. We will

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be talking to one in a while. Steven Smith reports. It is not a

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BBC manager skipping all the way to the bank, I can see why you might

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think that, in fact this was the first live show from TV centre in

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west London. You may have shed a tear when the place closed earlier

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this year. The National Audit Office was weeping tears of

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incredulity today at the golden goodbyes the Beeb paid to some of

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the men and women behind the scenes. It handed �25 million to 150

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executives. Including �680,000 for Chief

:15:27.:15:33.

Operating Officer Caroline Thompson who spent 17 years at the

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corporation. �866,000 for a departmental director with 25 years

:15:38.:15:46.

service. And almost �950,000 for BBC lifer Tanya Byron, former

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deputy DG. The biggest ten payouts came to more than �5 million on

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their own. I think the BBC is totally out-of-touch with its

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viewers in terms of how it uses license fee payers' money. It has

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been out-of-touch for some time. You have to look at the series of

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scandals that have come about in the last couple of years. The

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biggest of which is probably the Digital Media Initiative, where

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over �100 million of license fee payers' money was simply wasted on

:16:16.:16:20.

a project that was really never going to work, according to the

:16:20.:16:25.

people who looked at it. This is an astonishing set of scandals that

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seem to go on and on. The National Audit Office said the BBC breached

:16:30.:16:34.

its on already generous severence terms. The Government said the

:16:34.:16:40.

report exposed a culture of pay- offs that was out of control. Some

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observers question the role of the BBC Trust. The problem is here on a

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succession of cases that all find their way back to the BBC Trust,

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who can say that the rules are constructed in such a way as to

:16:52.:16:55.

prevent them intervening directly in some of these things. That is

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true, but from the point of view of a license payer, if those rules

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prevent the Trust from holding management to account effectively,

:17:03.:17:07.

the argument for changing the rules becomes unavoidable. Whether you

:17:07.:17:12.

like it or not, and they will not like it. The argument, a discussion,

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another debate about BBC governance seems to me to be more or less

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inevitable. We do not run the BBC, as you know, we are specifically

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excluded on remuneration matters from handling anything other than

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Director Generals, however we have asked the Director General to

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report back to us and we want to make sure the new rules he has put

:17:33.:17:39.

in place are implemented correctly. The DG Lord Hall said the BBC had

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saved more by trimming its executive tiers than it spent on

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severence. And pay-offs are now capped at �150,000. Manager Roly

:17:47.:17:53.

Keating, who left last year for a job at the British Library

:17:53.:18:01.

collected �376,000 on his way out. That payment was called "seriously

:18:01.:18:06.

deficient", Mr Keating has returned the money. Those who specialise in

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finding executives for media companies are baffled by the BBC's

:18:09.:18:14.

generosity. We have been in a negotiation with a director leaving

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one media business to go to another, the thought of him being paid a

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goodbye exit to leave that company and go to another one is laughable

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really. And that, I think, is massive open goal and where the BBC

:18:29.:18:34.

and the BBC trustees really have shot themselves in the foot.

:18:34.:18:38.

Poles show viewers love their favourite shows. But -- polls show

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viewers love their favourite shows, but the clock is ticking on BBC

:18:42.:18:47.

large guess. We have the director of strategy

:18:47.:18:51.

and digital at the BBC with us, what has gone wrong? We lost our

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way on payments. It is a humbling report, there is some extremely

:18:57.:19:04.

embarrassing mistakes that were made. We need it learn lessons.

:19:04.:19:11.

you give us a guarantee that there will be nobody else leaving the BBC

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a pay-off of �150,000 or more? Hall said that on the first day in

:19:16.:19:22.

the job. I'm told it hasn't come into effect. In the report it makes

:19:22.:19:29.

clear there are up to 15 people who already had letters and we can't

:19:29.:19:33.

unpick that. There will be people leaving with more than �150,000?

:19:33.:19:37.

From the 1st of September people will be expected to leave with less

:19:37.:19:42.

than �150,000. On his second day in the job Tony Hall said the payments

:19:42.:19:45.

were too high and unacceptable and that is why he brought in a cap.

:19:45.:19:49.

That was months ago? That was on the second day of the job. He

:19:49.:19:53.

spotted it on his second day in the job. That was months ago, why not

:19:53.:19:56.

implement it immediately? Because you have to negotiate to get it

:19:56.:19:59.

brought in. So people can refuse can they? Some people had already

:19:59.:20:03.

had letters sent to them saying these were the terms, and we will

:20:03.:20:08.

not unpick them. Why not?Because it would be basically illegal to do

:20:08.:20:12.

so. Why not try?It is actually a tough decision he has taken. It

:20:12.:20:17.

would be easy to say it is for new joiners. He said it is for

:20:17.:20:24.

everybody at the BBC, no-one will leave for more than �150,000, most

:20:24.:20:28.

will get far less. Can you help us on the decision made that Roly

:20:28.:20:35.

Keating should get �375,000. Money which he has honourably now repaid?

:20:35.:20:40.

That decision was not taken by the Director General, it was apparently

:20:40.:20:45.

not taken by the head of human resources, who did take it? They

:20:45.:20:49.

got themselves into a muddle, people thought one thing was going

:20:49.:20:56.

on, and another other people think it was something else. That is why

:20:56.:21:00.

we have to apologise. Who took the decision? It was a collective

:21:00.:21:04.

decision. You can have a witch-hunt or say learn from our mistakes,

:21:05.:21:09.

that is what we will do. I thought we were in an era of transparency?

:21:09.:21:14.

You say three months ago is too far away, but today we say that

:21:14.:21:21.

everybody who leaves for the next few months it will be brought to a

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senior remuneration committee. you disclose who will sign this

:21:26.:21:31.

off? The NAO have all the information. There is no name?It

:21:31.:21:35.

was clear it was signed off by a combination of HR, finance and they

:21:35.:21:43.

got it wrong. The Director General didn't sign off on it and others

:21:43.:21:48.

didn't know anybody about it? Did the person who signed off on it

:21:48.:21:55.

still work at the BBC? It was a mess, but I can say this was about

:21:55.:21:59.

saving far more money than the cost of license fees in Dudley. We are

:21:59.:22:02.

saving just about �20 million every year going forward. Yes we could

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have done it for less money, certainly we could have done it in

:22:05.:22:10.

a much better way, but we are saving �20 million a year. We

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reduce the number of senior managers at the BBC by over 200.

:22:14.:22:19.

There was a very serious mistake made here, in the spirit of the new

:22:19.:22:22.

transparency, aren't people entitled to know who made the

:22:22.:22:27.

mistake and whether they still work for the about of BC? What happens

:22:27.:22:32.

with trans-- BBC?What was about transparency is you need to find

:22:32.:22:37.

out who makes the mistakes, and we don't need a witch-hunt but to

:22:37.:22:43.

learn from mistakes and show the license payers we are moving

:22:43.:22:47.

forward and the license fee has been frozep. Do you believe the BBC

:22:47.:22:51.

Trust last shown itself to be a responsible custodian of license-

:22:51.:22:55.

fee payers money? I think it is unfair to blame the Trust for this,

:22:55.:22:59.

this is clearly not their job. It is our job as the executive to set

:22:59.:23:02.

the pay for people, it is the non- executive's job as well. The Trust

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asked for this report. It was clearly something that was a

:23:07.:23:14.

collective responsibility of the managers and the BBC. In the spirit

:23:14.:23:18.

of transparency where was your job advertised? Tony Hall brought in

:23:18.:23:22.

people he thought were right for the job and others were advertised.

:23:22.:23:24.

When you are putting a team together you make some appointments

:23:24.:23:28.

that way. Is it fair?It was his decision. It is not transparent?

:23:28.:23:32.

There is a balance between getting the right people and running the

:23:32.:23:37.

process. Sometimes, in my case he went, it is always difficult to

:23:37.:23:41.

defend your own circumstances, in my case he wanted me.

:23:41.:23:46.

Is it a worthwhile responsible way to use public money? Obviously Tony

:23:46.:23:49.

thought so. The thing we are focused on is delivering a much

:23:49.:23:53.

better value BBC. That is what we will do. It is not transparent?The

:23:53.:23:56.

report today is extremely transparent. Your appointment

:23:56.:24:00.

isn't? We will make sure we learn the lessons of today and we have

:24:00.:24:04.

banned the use of payments in lieu of notice, that was one of the

:24:04.:24:09.

other things the report was worried about. We said no-one will get more

:24:09.:24:15.

than �150,000. We have said all the deals over �75,000 will go to a

:24:15.:24:18.

senior remuneration committee. were hand picked and not appointed

:24:18.:24:23.

as a result of an open and fair competition? No-one argues that,

:24:23.:24:26.

Tony made some appointments that he brought in and others were

:24:26.:24:30.

advertised. Anybody in business. is exact ly the same sort of

:24:30.:24:32.

culture that paid people vast amounts of money when they didn't

:24:32.:24:35.

need to be paid vast amounts of money? It is the opposite of that

:24:35.:24:40.

culture. In the second day he said there will be a cap and acted to

:24:40.:24:45.

improve processes. We got some things badly wrong and we have

:24:45.:24:49.

apologised for that and we have to move forward and learn the lessons.

:24:49.:24:52.

Do you think other people should have had a chance to compete for

:24:52.:24:55.

your job? It is Tony's decision. People in business do this all the

:24:55.:24:59.

time they decide who they want to get, they bring in some by

:24:59.:25:04.

approaching them in the way I was, and others go through the process.

:25:04.:25:08.

I'm happy working at the Beeb and happy to come on your programme any

:25:08.:25:12.

time. Supposing that instead of going to

:25:12.:25:18.

live in some crummy bedsit in Pot Noodle land so you can have the

:25:18.:25:22.

opportunity to listen to a burned out hack delivering the same

:25:22.:25:25.

lecture that he has been doing for 20 years, instead you could stay at

:25:25.:25:34.

home and hear some of the best lecturers in the world. The idea of

:25:34.:25:39.

MOOCs on-line courses seems to promise a future of higher

:25:39.:25:43.

education, an alternative to an expensive traditional one. We have

:25:43.:25:53.
:25:53.:25:56.

this report. Not to be confused with a Mog or a moog, it is MOOC.

:25:56.:26:00.

It stands for massive on-line open course, and it shows signs of being

:26:00.:26:06.

really big. Even bigger than that. I think MOOC has a huge potential.

:26:06.:26:12.

The technology that enables one professor to teach not just 100

:26:12.:26:16.

students but 100,000, that changes the economics of higher education.

:26:16.:26:21.

What is a MOOC? It is parceled up bit of education, enrolment is

:26:21.:26:25.

unlimited, massive. There are no entry requirements, it is open, on-

:26:25.:26:29.

line and it is a course. At the moment the big players in the MOOC

:26:29.:26:34.

world are in the United States, on the east coast there is Harvard and

:26:34.:26:39.

MIT, on the west coast Stanford, this isn't about going fee. Anyone

:26:39.:26:43.

anywhere in the world with a computer -- geography. Anyone

:26:43.:26:48.

anywhere in the world with a computer can have access to the

:26:48.:26:55.

best professors in the world. What about competitive strategy, Roman

:26:55.:26:59.

architecture, or different relation equations in action. Not a bad

:26:59.:27:06.

place to start is the machine learning MOOC from Stanford. The

:27:06.:27:09.

man who teaches that is the Godfather? About two years ago I

:27:09.:27:14.

put one of my classes on-line and it reached an audience of 100,000

:27:14.:27:20.

students. To put that in context I used to teach 400 students a year

:27:21.:27:25.

in Stanford. To reach a comparable audience I would have to teach at

:27:25.:27:29.

Stanford for 250 years. I got together with one of my friends and

:27:29.:27:35.

we started to take the technology that my team had developed and to

:27:35.:27:38.

partner with top universities so anyone can learn from the best

:27:38.:27:43.

professors and universities. MOOC isn't a one-way exercise,

:27:43.:27:52.

there are assessments, assignments and quizs on-line. It is a short

:27:52.:27:57.

step to go to real life qualifications gained entirely

:27:57.:28:03.

through MOOCs. We are told some employers are showing favour to

:28:03.:28:10.

shows who are "Mooked up". It is opening the door to more interviews.

:28:10.:28:15.

When employer yes, sir see you have taken advanced glass -- when an

:28:15.:28:21.

employer sees you have taken advanced classes from tan Ford or

:28:21.:28:25.

wherever it is -- Stanford or other universities it brings more

:28:25.:28:30.

interview. Given our glorious and proud tradition of distance

:28:30.:28:33.

learning as exsemplified by the Open university, if you fell in

:28:33.:28:38.

front of the TV in the 1970s, chances are you woke up at 2.00am

:28:38.:28:44.

to see this. The way we calculate rate of thing we get an idea...The

:28:44.:28:48.

People who brought you back are teeming up with 21 other

:28:48.:28:58.
:28:58.:28:59.

universities to launch future learn, a British MOOC initiative. They

:28:59.:29:04.

plan to go live in August, this is not about increasing education but

:29:04.:29:08.

widening access? This isn't a redistribution of education, this

:29:08.:29:11.

is about trying to use a connected environment of the web to deliver

:29:11.:29:19.

something different. To reinvent lenk in -- learning in some way.

:29:19.:29:23.

Using the on-line social networking tools available to do something

:29:23.:29:27.

different and fresh. Critically toe make sure that we're not just

:29:28.:29:33.

pumping out information but people are actually learning through what

:29:33.:29:36.

-- critically to make sure we are not just pumping out information

:29:36.:29:39.

but people are learning. In the United States where they are most

:29:39.:29:44.

advanced they are being led by the biggest names in higher education,

:29:44.:29:48.

places like Harvard and Yale. In Britain some of our biggest names

:29:48.:29:53.

are holding back. Here at Oxford they say MOOCs won't prompt them to

:29:53.:29:56.

change anything they do. Is this clever brand management or could

:29:56.:30:01.

they miss the boat? Oxford delivers degrees in way which really sets a

:30:01.:30:08.

premium on the tutoral experience and the teaching on a one-to-one or

:30:08.:30:11.

two-to-two basis. Other universities deliver a lot of their

:30:11.:30:14.

courses primarily through lectures. MOOCs are a further extension of

:30:14.:30:20.

that. You have to accept, I think, however exciting the concept of the

:30:20.:30:26.

MOOC is, that there is necessarily some loss when you are not in a

:30:26.:30:29.

person-to-person environment. The MOOC, from my perspective, can

:30:29.:30:32.

never really substitute for that. People are giving this stuff away

:30:33.:30:37.

for free, who could have a problem with that? Except what if this is

:30:37.:30:40.

the big disruptive technology that is about to rip through higher

:30:40.:30:46.

education in a way that MP3s did through music or the Amazon store

:30:46.:30:50.

did through book selling. There are big thinkers who believe the cost

:30:50.:30:54.

of higher education will have to come down and MOOCs are one way to

:30:54.:30:58.

achieve that. Recently Bill Clinton said "I think the only sustainable

:30:58.:31:05.

answer is to find a less expensive delivery system...we simply can't

:31:05.:31:08.

continue to have the cost of a university education to go up at

:31:08.:31:14.

twice the rate of inflation every decade". In the United States the

:31:14.:31:16.

California state universities are experimenting using MOOCs to

:31:17.:31:26.
:31:27.:31:29.

replace some courses. San Jose University was to offer a MOOC on

:31:29.:31:37.

Mikele Sandell's on social justice. But the faculty said no. They wrote

:31:37.:31:43.

an open letter to Professor Sandell and said" professors who care about

:31:43.:31:50.

public education should not produce products that will replace

:31:50.:31:55.

professors and dismantle education". If MOOCs take hold there are plenty

:31:55.:31:59.

of implications to consider. Will we need as many universities and

:31:59.:32:03.

academics in the future. Can people do their university degrees without

:32:03.:32:07.

ever leaving home? In Britain and other places, where the cost of

:32:07.:32:11.

higher education is a huge political issue, this could be the

:32:11.:32:18.

route to lower costs. If so at what cost? Generally when the Internet

:32:18.:32:23.

hits an industry, it tends to find basic inefficiencies in it and

:32:23.:32:29.

enable a better delivery of some of those aspects. I'm sure a

:32:29.:32:34.

combination of on-line delivery and campus delivery can deliver some

:32:34.:32:39.

aspects of education more cheaply than purely a campus-based

:32:39.:32:44.

experience. But I think the primary opportunity of MOOCs really is to

:32:44.:32:48.

just broaden access to a whole range of people who otherwise would

:32:48.:32:53.

never have had had access to these courses. Talk to people who are

:32:53.:32:57.

enthusiastic about MOOCs and they will say any institution not

:32:57.:33:00.

getting involved right now is suicidally short-sighted. In fact

:33:00.:33:05.

you don't have to talk to them for very long before various flightless

:33:05.:33:10.

birds get referenced. There is a real danger if we are doing animal

:33:10.:33:15.

metaphors there is a danger of a lemming-like rush, if I can do that,

:33:15.:33:19.

we must do MOOCs because everybody else is. Well if you are confident

:33:19.:33:22.

in the product you have, you don't rush to join everybody else. You

:33:22.:33:25.

keep an eye on what is happening, if you want to develop your own

:33:25.:33:31.

version you do so in your own time on your own terms. No-one can say

:33:31.:33:36.

why MOOCs will lead or where the money will come from. Most MOOC

:33:36.:33:39.

providers are commercial ventures, but what is the business plan. What

:33:39.:33:43.

we can safely say is their prospects depend on whether they

:33:43.:33:50.

improve the prospects of people who take MOOC, if you excuse me I will

:33:50.:33:54.

get to my machine learning MOOC at Stanford. One advantage of the way

:33:54.:34:01.

of learning, none of the restriks of the past apply. This is a

:34:01.:34:06.

restrictions of the past apply. Are you eating? I hope you have enough

:34:06.:34:15.

for everyone, because there is 100,000 of us here!

:34:15.:34:22.

Universities and Science Minister is with me now. Can you see MOOCs

:34:22.:34:25.

replacing traditional university? can't see them replacing them but

:34:25.:34:30.

they are a significant change in education. So what they some how

:34:30.:34:33.

augment the university experience or what? What we can see them doing

:34:33.:34:37.

is first of all in developing countries, that do not yet have a

:34:37.:34:41.

network of bricks and mortar universities, and have great

:34:41.:34:45.

ambitions for rapid growth, this might be how they help toe deliver

:34:45.:34:50.

an increased higher education. Second -- help to deliver an

:34:50.:34:52.

increased higher education. Secondly I think they will change

:34:53.:34:58.

how we learn. When you are on a MOOC, doing a maths MOOC, they will

:34:58.:35:01.

identify 30% of our students made this mistake at this stage of the

:35:01.:35:07.

maths course, they then had to retreat. The education an litics,

:35:07.:35:14.

how we learn, where you make -- an litics, and how we learn and how we

:35:14.:35:18.

make mistakes. You were at Christ Church at Oxford, one of the finest

:35:18.:35:22.

universities in the world, some of the most beautiful buildings, you

:35:22.:35:27.

wouldn't have rather been at home looking at a screen would you?

:35:27.:35:31.

And one of the things MOOCs will do, in the language of the arrival of

:35:31.:35:36.

the web into these services, they will disintermediate, Oxford and

:35:36.:35:40.

other leading universities will be able to recruit down the world by

:35:40.:35:45.

people who start by doing a MOOC. They will use the fact that someone

:35:45.:35:50.

in Mongolia does well in the physics MOOC spot talent out there.

:35:50.:35:55.

I think it is good news for our universities' recruitment. You are

:35:55.:36:00.

not worried about the lemming-like leap on to the bandwagon? I think

:36:00.:36:06.

MOOCs will be a very important part of the educational landscape. David

:36:06.:36:11.

gave the analogy with music. We all have Spotify and listening to music

:36:11.:36:16.

on-line. Last weekend hundreds of thousands of people went to

:36:16.:36:20.

Glastonbury. They didn't listen to it on their iPhone but the physical

:36:20.:36:24.

experience of listening to music. I think there will be a mixture of

:36:24.:36:28.

on-line learning and people wanting the physical experience of being in

:36:28.:36:33.

a seminar with fellow students. you think there is a danger that

:36:33.:36:37.

less affluent students will see it as a more economic way to get an

:36:37.:36:41.

education. In that sense you will have a divide between those who can

:36:41.:36:47.

afford to go to university and those who prefer the cheaper option

:36:47.:36:57.
:36:57.:36:58.

on-line. It could be a cheaper low cost option. Students that go to

:36:58.:37:01.

university they are not paying up front, it will be a choice of how

:37:01.:37:11.
:37:11.:37:30.

people wish to study. There may be mature stew dints. They may be able

:37:30.:37:34.

to recruit more widely because of MOOCs, they may have mature

:37:34.:37:38.

students who learn differently, it will be a mix. MOOCs, I think will

:37:38.:37:42.

be a big and important part of the landscape. Are you confident that

:37:42.:37:46.

British universities are wised up enough to the commercial importance

:37:46.:37:52.

of this? Two years ago when I first came across these on the west coast

:37:52.:37:57.

of the US, they were ahead of us. And I'm very pleased that Open

:37:57.:38:07.
:38:07.:38:07.

university is now trying to develop Fuerture -- Future Learn. If we

:38:07.:38:11.

have got, as I believe we have, a British education product. Then the

:38:11.:38:15.

arrival of the MOOCs an opportunity for people around the world to see

:38:15.:38:19.

the quality of British higher education. I think we can, I think

:38:19.:38:22.

British higher education will probably gain from this. We will

:38:22.:38:27.

have more people around the world who decide, having done the MOOC

:38:27.:38:37.
:38:37.:38:38.

for the University of Edinburgh, I want to study that. Edward Snowden,

:38:38.:38:41.

the man the National Security Agency would most like to talk to

:38:41.:38:49.

is said to have applied for politic kal asylum in Russia. President

:38:49.:38:53.

Putin says he's not welcome there unless he stops damaging American

:38:53.:38:57.

interests. Tonight a letter has appeared from Snowden attacking

:38:57.:39:07.
:39:07.:39:27.

America for persecuting him as he It has to be said it is his appeal

:39:27.:39:37.
:39:37.:39:37.

in Ecuador, the news emerged and predates the developments we have

:39:37.:39:47.
:39:47.:39:54.

heard today now. Wikileaks saying stand by for a statement from

:39:54.:39:57.

Edward Snowden but we haven't had that. There is an extraordinary

:39:57.:40:05.

chain of events, what is Putin's gain? I think we can say it is

:40:05.:40:10.

America's political discomfort. He wants to get the maximum political

:40:10.:40:14.

mileage from it. At the same time the fascinating thing is he sees a

:40:14.:40:19.

lot of res prosity with cases of people in the UK and the US who

:40:19.:40:25.

Russia wants to get hold of, businessmen, opposition people who

:40:25.:40:29.

he can't, therefore he wants to control, if indeed Edward Snowden

:40:29.:40:37.

is about to get asylum in Russia what he can say. This is what he

:40:37.:40:41.

said today. TRANSLATION: If he likes to stay here, there is one

:40:41.:40:47.

condition, he should see his work aimed at damaging our American

:40:47.:40:56.

partners. No matter how strange it will sound from me.

:40:56.:40:59.

Do you think Snowden has lot of secrets on him that the Russians

:41:00.:41:02.

would find useful? There are different versions of this, some

:41:02.:41:08.

suggested that he had left the key material in safe hands before he

:41:08.:41:12.

fled Hong Kong, and could, for example, through use of code words

:41:12.:41:15.

or friendly intermediaries allow this information to get out to

:41:15.:41:19.

third parties. Should he choose to do so. Others way he took

:41:19.:41:23.

everything with him, we know that the German news manage zeen has

:41:23.:41:29.

published a magazine since he has been -- magazine has published a

:41:29.:41:33.

letter. Clearly what he has with him is encrypted. It is an open

:41:33.:41:37.

question if he stays in Russia what becomes of that material. One thing

:41:37.:41:40.

is clear from what President Putin said today, they don't want him

:41:40.:41:44.

running a media service if they do give him asylum. Thank you very

:41:44.:41:48.

much. Now before the end of the programme we will have tomorrow's

:41:48.:41:56.

front pages. First, when 15-year-old Malala was

:41:56.:42:00.

shot by the Taliban simply for wanting an education for herself

:42:00.:42:05.

and other Pakistani girls, it sparked global outrage, Malala

:42:05.:42:09.

survived being shot in the head. She's studying in the UK. Today one

:42:09.:42:17.

of her friends injured in the attack also arrived here. Shazia

:42:17.:42:21.

Ramzan, whose story we featured in April, travelled with the support

:42:21.:42:28.

of Gordon Brown, who these days is Special Envoy for global education.

:42:28.:42:32.

Newsround reported the story for us and spoke to her and the former

:42:32.:42:36.

Prime Minister about what it is like for girls trying to study in

:42:36.:42:44.

Pakistan's Swat Valley. 15-year-old Shazia loves going to school and

:42:44.:42:49.

dreams of becoming a doctor. Last October as she sat on her school

:42:49.:42:55.

bus a gunman climbed on board, his intention was to kill her friend

:42:55.:42:58.

Malala. TRANSLATION: I can't tell you who they were, but my life

:42:58.:43:01.

completely changed after the incident. Before it we could freely

:43:01.:43:05.

go anywhere we liked on our own. Now we must be accompanied by

:43:05.:43:14.

guards who will tell us not to go out. That incident was a planned

:43:14.:43:19.

attack on Malala they planned to kill her for campaigning for girls'

:43:19.:43:23.

education. She was left in a critical condition and scenes of

:43:23.:43:27.

her bloodied body sent shockwaves around the world. She was taken to

:43:27.:43:34.

Birmingham for treatment but Shazara spent a month in hospital.

:43:34.:43:39.

Although not a target her life changed unimagineably after the

:43:39.:43:43.

shooting. Both girls became heroines throughout the world

:43:43.:43:48.

reveered for their bravery. Malala received a Nobel Peace Prize

:43:48.:43:52.

nomination. Things are different back in the Swat Valley, some

:43:52.:43:56.

friends and relatives feared being associated with him for fear of

:43:56.:43:59.

becoming the next target for the Taliban. TRANSLATION: Some girls

:43:59.:44:06.

are confident others are looking at how Malala sacrificed for her

:44:06.:44:09.

education and they become scared and no longer study. Some mothers

:44:09.:44:13.

tell their daughters what can happen to Malala can happen to them,

:44:13.:44:23.
:44:23.:44:26.

don't seek education and don't go to school any more. I met her and

:44:26.:44:29.

she was excited and optimistic about living in the Swat Valley.

:44:29.:44:34.

TRANSLATION: Our fight is for he hadcation, they say girls shouldn't

:44:34.:44:38.

get education and we say they will because it is our right. Since then

:44:38.:44:43.

life has taken its toll, she has come to the UK to continue her

:44:43.:44:47.

studies without the fear of Taliban attack. TRANSLATION: Even my

:44:47.:44:51.

parents will tell me my life is under threat. We want to go out and

:44:51.:44:54.

have fun but we were stopped, and we couldn't go from school to a

:44:54.:44:58.

friend's place because our guards would come looking for. So life has

:44:58.:45:02.

changed a lot. Of course it is important we are educated, it is

:45:02.:45:08.

really tough back there and now I have come here to be educated.

:45:08.:45:12.

Although it is good to see her again, I know she has a chance to

:45:12.:45:17.

become a school and maybe a doctor one day, the reason she fled

:45:17.:45:20.

Pakistan remain, the Swat Valley has been a long standing stronghold

:45:20.:45:26.

for the Taliban, it is only the Pakistani army enforcing the

:45:26.:45:30.

fragile peace. TRANSLATION: army has done a lot to control the

:45:30.:45:33.

situation. If the Taliban qum back nobody can stop them. If the army

:45:33.:45:37.

is not there, nobody can stop them and they will rule over us and we

:45:37.:45:39.

would have to do everything according to their wish. They

:45:39.:45:43.

should think of the parents who send their daughters to school only

:45:43.:45:48.

to know that the girls have been killed. Special education envoy to

:45:48.:45:54.

the UN, Gordon Brown, has been working to bring Shazia over to the

:45:54.:45:56.

UK. Does he think the west should be talking to the Taliban for

:45:56.:46:01.

lasting peace in the region if girls like Shazia are attacked for

:46:01.:46:04.

wanting to go to schools? I think we should make it clear human

:46:04.:46:07.

rights are an eye seings part of the negotiation, if we are talking

:46:07.:46:10.

to militants and extremists, they have to be prepared to say that

:46:10.:46:14.

they accept the right of every girl and boy to have education,

:46:14.:46:17.

particularly that girls should not be discriminated against in the

:46:17.:46:21.

future. We can't have a situation where we move from building schools

:46:21.:46:25.

and got lots of girls, particularly in Afghanistan to school and then

:46:25.:46:29.

the schools closed down. We must make it a central part of the

:46:29.:46:32.

negotiation that human rights are respected. She now has to make a

:46:32.:46:37.

new life for herself while she studies in the UK. For every girls

:46:37.:46:40.

like these girls there are millions of girls in Pakistan that go

:46:40.:46:43.

without an education. You can watch more about that story

:46:43.:46:50.

and the struggle for girls' education in Pakistan in Shot For

:46:50.:46:56.

Going To School on BBC Three on Wednesday at 9.00. Mark Urban has

:46:56.:46:59.

come back to join us. Edward Snowden has issued the promised

:46:59.:47:02.

statement, what has he said? He has essentially attacked President

:47:02.:47:07.

Obama. He said there would be no wheeling and dealing but he got

:47:07.:47:12.

Vice President Biden to ring people up, countries that Edward Snowden

:47:12.:47:16.

had asked to consider his asylum bid and asked them not to. He

:47:16.:47:21.

describes himself as a stateless person and hints he's more or less

:47:21.:47:26.

out of options. It doesn't say he's seeking asylum in Russia.

:47:26.:47:30.

That's about it for tonight, we will be back again tomorrow, do

:47:30.:47:40.
:47:40.:47:44.

will be back again tomorrow, do join us then if you can.

:47:44.:47:47.

A different weather day tomorrow, sunshine in eastern areas, giving

:47:47.:47:53.

way to cloud. A lot of cloud across the country and grey southern skies

:47:53.:48:03.
:48:03.:48:03.

Feel cool in the rain as well, temperatures around 12-14. Eastern

:48:03.:48:07.

Scotland, some breaks in the rain, afternoon damper than the morning.

:48:07.:48:11.

Same can be said for northern England. Rain coming and going, the

:48:11.:48:17.

odd heavier burst mixing amongst that. Damp through the east Midland.

:48:17.:48:20.

The south-east, can't rule out the threat of one or two showers in the

:48:20.:48:24.

afternoon. Close to Wimbledon, the main threat will be in the evening.

:48:24.:48:27.

Wetter afternoon than morning across parts of south-west England

:48:27.:48:30.

and Wales. There will be still some dry weather around, some of the

:48:30.:48:35.

bursts of rain could be on the heavy side and accompanied by a

:48:35.:48:39.

strong breeze, not the best start to a July day. Some slight changes

:48:39.:48:45.

into Wednesday. The City forecasts you will notice Manchester, Belfast,

:48:45.:48:50.

Inverness all looking dryer on Wednesday, brighter, warmer, same

:48:50.:48:53.

into London, Cardiff, Birmingham and Bristol. After a grey and damp

:48:53.:48:57.

Jeremy Paxman with the latest on the unrest in Egypt and the payoffs to BBC staff. Plus, Gordon Brown on talking to the Taliban, the march of online courses and tracking down Edward Snowden.


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