01/08/2013 Newsnight


01/08/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Anita Anand.


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Transcript


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Once again the people whose job it is to started start once again the

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people whose job it is to pro-- -- protect the children have failed

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miserably. The man who is sent in tells us it has highlighted a

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crisis in social services. They are overwhelmed and there is nothing

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that I can see that suggests this will not be getting more of a

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difficulty. I'm really worried And he's here tonight to discuss

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what might be done to stop other children being murdered.

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Also tonight on the streets of Cairo protesters supporting the

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ousted Islamist Government refuse orders by the army to leave. The

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stand-off between Egypt's generals and supporters of the former

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President continues, can it really be resolved in such a way that

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leaves any hope for elections? A new set of peers announced today

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will join the already overstuffed House of Lords and it seems being

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on a certain nightly news programme might have swung it for a cop of

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them. People probably saw --A couple of them. People saw me maybe

:01:19.:01:23.

doing strategic thinking and maybe thought I would play a role in the

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House of Lords. It is not us just making a joke of it, do you think

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it had something to do with it? is mainly you making a joke of it.

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And the election in Iran was supposed to thau relations between

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the west, but the screws have been tightened further. We ask his

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right-hand man what we can expect of the new regime on the eve of the

:01:50.:02:00.
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President's swearing in. They turned Daniel from a bright-

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eyed little boy into a bag of bones, they basically broke him in so many

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ways. The words of a senior officer responsible for the investigation

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into the death of four-year-old Daniel Pelka. Today it was said the

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horrific catalogue of abuse should be on everyone's conscience. This

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was a little boy who went to school as he was being starved, force-fed

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salt, beaten, held under water in his bath, and looked in a cold

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empty room at night. Tonight Newsnight talks to a man about

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where the failures in the social care system lie, and the system

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that is supposed to protect children, and his prognosis is very

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worrying indeed. We have this report.

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He was starved and beaten on a regular basis, he was imprisoned in

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a box room, he was drowned to the point of unconsciousness on

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occasion, he was also poisoned with salt. So yes an absolutely wretched

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existence for this little boy. There is no shortage of

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horrorifying descriptions of Daniel Pelka's suffering, or disbelief

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that so many opportunities were missed to intervene. In the 14

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months before his death there were visits to his home by social

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workers, health workers and teachers. There was a police

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investigation and three weeks before he died he was examined by a

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paediatrician. I think testifies one-and-a-half stone. Today began a

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search for answers. And the inevitable finger-pointing. I think

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his death should be on all of our consciences. You are in a unique

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position, what should the Government be doing? What we have

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done already is get rid of a lot of complexity and bureaucracy that we

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worried might have meant that cases were not picked up earlier.

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Everybody knew but nobody did anybody about it. Nobody felt they

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were directly responsible for it and that it was their job that they

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were paid for to put it right to do something about it. That's what

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went wrong. Coventry's child services department is now subject

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to an official review for its handling of this case. But it is

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not alone in facing scrutiny. According to Ofsted one in four of

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the country's child protection units are failing. Ray Jones is the

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man Ofsted sends in to work with councils struggling to cope. He can

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see how social workers in Coventry might have missed things. This is

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my concern, that people don't have the time at the moment to find out

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what they need to find out. We don't get to know what we need to

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know. People are rushing from case- to-case, family-to-family, child-

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to-child, trying to close the ones down that we think maybe that is OK,

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but we're not sure but we can't stick with it because we have to

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make space for new referrals and notifications. So, yes, with what

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we know now people would have clearly done different things. But

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it is understandable for me in terms of the pressure the system is

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under why people don't necessarily know what they need to know. In the

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last five years the number of children in the child protection

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system has increased. Child protection orders have gone up by

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47%, while care proceedings, which is when social services apply to a

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court for a child to be taken into care have gone up 64%. And the

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number of children ending up in care has increased by 13%. Ray

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Jones reports regularly to the Children's Minister, and this is

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what he has been telling him. the council has put in some more

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resources, money, by taking money from elsewhere, finding it

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increasingly difficult to do that because the public sector

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expenditure cuts. But they are all doing it in a context where they

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are struggling to keep up with the demand coming through the front

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door. They can't recruit enough social workers to stay around to

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make sure they know the families who they need to know well. Is the

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Children's Minister listening? minister replies to me in terms of

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thanking me for my letters. I appreciate that he will have read

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the letter and civil servants will have read the letter, do I see it

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getting better on the ground? No, I see increasing poverty for families,

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I see increasing pressure and difficulty for coping with work

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loads for social workers and police officers and paediatricians. I see

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nothing at the moment which suggests to me that it is going to

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get better rather than worse. According to the NSPCC it is a

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recuring theme of child abuse cases that people notice something is

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wrong, but shy away from getting involved. Why do you think it is

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that people don't come forward? is a lack of confidence a kind of

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reticence about getting involved in someone else's business, I suppose.

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It is quite a big thing to comment on what another person's child

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might be experiencing, and yet if you have the courage to speak up

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you could be saving a child's life. Daniel Pelka will not be the only

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little boy to die as a result of abuse this year. More than 50

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children are likely to be killed by those meant to be caring for them.

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Watching that with me in the studio is ray Jones, who you saw in that

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film, also we have the chief executive of the children's charity

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Action for Children, and councillor David Simmonds, Chair of the Local

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Government Association Children and Young People Board. Ray if I may

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start with you, Victoria Climbe, Baby Peter Connelly, how many times

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do we have to have the same soul- destroying conversations? We have

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had them a lot for the last 40 years, we can go back to 1943 and

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the first story was about Maria Colewell in Brighton. Every year

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50-70 children are dying because of neglect by parents or carers. It is

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there every day for people doing child protection. It only hits the

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public attention from time to time. But I'm afraid it is the working

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experience of people trying to protect children that sometimes

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they are not able to do so. thing is we are promised so much

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when a high-profile case takes place, and post- Baby P and all the

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attention that was diverted, we were assured that problems had been

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fixed, we were assured that there would be early intervention, what

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happened with that? There are, it is not an unremittingly grim story,

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there have been some improvements across the system. But we have a

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real worry about what's happening on early intervention. Eileen Munro

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made a clear recommendation in her very good report that a duty should

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be introduced for local authorities on early intervention. That wasn't

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followed up by the Government. The recommendation of also supported by

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the Select Committee that reported last year, that was a huge missed

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opportunity. As was said, at a time when resores are incredibly tight

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and local authorities are having to cut back and need is going up,

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there needs to be something positive in place to help local

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authorities to commission services specifically for early intervention.

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Just under 40% of children, in different parts of the UK, will

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present and are first registered for child protection purposes

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because of neglect. We know we can make a huge difference in the lives

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of children if we can intervene early enough. You just mentioned

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funding there, but I'm just looking at the number of interventions that

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took place in this case, January 2011, Daniel has a broken arm,

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February 2011, fails to turn up for a follow-up appointment, March 2011

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police visit the home. June 2011 social services close the file.

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July 2011 a health worker visit, I'm not even half way through this

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list. There were plenty of people involved in this, there didn't seem

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to be a want of personnel. There was a want of action, David

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Simmonds? You are absolutely right. Mums and dads up and down the

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country will be looking at the coverage of this appalling case and

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thinking how can this go on in a family without it being noticed and

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stopped. You are absolutely right to highlight funding. It was

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noticed, they won't be asking that, it was noticed by a number of

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people? As well as the resources in the system to deal with a very

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large increase in the number of children needing help, we also need

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to make sure there is a real shared culture of responsibility among

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councils and among schools and the police working together to sort

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this out. I think everybody will accept that we all should be

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working together to stop children being killed by those who wish them

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harm. What people will want to know is why on these 11 interactions

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with police, with teachers, with healthcare professionals, did

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nobody yank that child out of that hell and save his life? In the

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areas of the country where this is working well somebody would have

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done, quite possibly the very first time that child came through the

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door of a children's centre or GPs' surgery, somebody would have said

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something is wrong here and I would deal with it. The issue we have is

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we are not as a country consistently as good as we need to

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be. There are some parts of the system where the it is creeking and

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it needs to be better. You look at where it is not better, why is it

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not working? I think, to be honest it is not working as well as we

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want anywhere. My reason for saying that is I'm not sure that what was

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known about Daniel at the time in a lot of places would have triggered

:11:41.:11:45.

an urgent response to take action on his behalf. What we now know we

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know through the criminal trial and through drilling down on what was

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happening for Daniel and his family as one case, when we know that a

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child had died. I'm not sure how Daniel stood up from other children

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within that school or whatever. That's a devastating thing to say

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about a boy who was picking refuse out of a dustbin because he was

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starving. You are telling me that there are other children doing that

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who are not going through abuse? I'm telling you within that school,

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I would suspect, although I don't know, there were other children

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coming to school who were hungry and who didn't have all the

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clothing they needed. Daniel wasn't coming through a family suffering

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severe deprivation and poverty. There would be other children who

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were. As a consequence of that two things, one is he may not have

:12:29.:12:34.

stood out as much as we now think he does when the story is told at

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this point in time. Secondly, even if the school did see that he was

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in a special situation that needed urgent action, getting that urgent

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action taken by social services and police officers, who are already up

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to their neck dealing with even more urgent actions for children in

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immediate danger, sometimes schools can't get the response they need.

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Let's talk about schools, we heard one of the teachers break down

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while giving evidence. It is an awful thing, you saw a child reduce

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and reduce and reduce and you now know that child is no longer with

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us. What is going on at the school level at the teacher level? Why

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isn't there a clearer shout that goes out from the classroom? It is

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really difficult talking about this particular case. Let's talk more

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general lean? I do -- generally? I do think there are huge issues for

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teachers in many of the ways ray says. We did some research a couple

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of years ago where we asked non- social care professionals about how

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confident they felt in intervening in case of neglect. What was really

:13:35.:13:39.

interesting is 40% were coming back and saying they didn't know quite

:13:39.:13:42.

what to do with it. They weren't quite sure it would be escalated up

:13:43.:13:46.

sufficiently, about 44% of the teachers, very is specifically said

:13:46.:13:49.

they didn't know what to do when they were finding resistance from

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parents. They didn't necessarily feel they had the skills or the

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authority or the links with other professionals to do something about

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it. That is a real concern because of the huge amount of pressure now

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being put on teachers because of the cutbacks we are talking about.

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That falls in your lap in that case? Very much so, from a council

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perspective the key things we are seeking to do is firstly to make

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sure we have a balance of staff with both the quality, but the

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experience to pick up these issues. Secondly, at the social services

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end that Ray has talked about, where matters are brought up we

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will deal with them quickly. I have spoken to head teachers with

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children who haven't had breakfast coming to school, once is a concern,

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but if it is happening every day it is triggering inquiries. You are

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saying it is a general feeling happening over time. It means there

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is a systemic failure, one which you look to David to sort out.

:14:39.:14:43.

the teachers we spoke to that was a very striking finding. Then deal

:14:43.:14:46.

with that, this is a general impression, this is not a few

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teachers who are saying we didn't know what to do, this is a pevasive

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feeling we are hearing from Clare? It is a consistent issue brought up

:14:55.:14:59.

in a number of child protection cases and the serious cases you

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described. Is it the training and confidence that you are not giving

:15:03.:15:07.

to your staff? It is a combination of factors, schools are autonomous,

:15:07.:15:10.

they are largely responsible for what goes on behind closed doors.

:15:10.:15:13.

The key thing to make sure is teachers when they are trained and

:15:13.:15:16.

first coming into the classroom through their careers are able to

:15:16.:15:19.

deal with these issues when they come forward. In this case the

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teacher did take it further. Let's deal with it very briefly the

:15:23.:15:26.

dealing with it further, because the teachers did make a noise about

:15:26.:15:31.

this, teachers are making a noise about it, it gets lost then in some

:15:31.:15:36.

kind of Labyrinth afterwards, what needs to be done to sort that out?

:15:36.:15:39.

Let's look at the system in context, we have one of the best child

:15:39.:15:42.

protection systems in the developed world. This keeps coming up as a

:15:42.:15:46.

problem. There are a couple of things we can do to fix it. We need

:15:46.:15:50.

to firstly understand the detail. The Serious Case Review will show

:15:50.:15:53.

what went wrong and at what point. From that we need to identify the

:15:53.:15:57.

actions. You have the ear of the minister, what do you want him to

:15:57.:16:01.

do, if he's listening now, what do you want him to do right now?

:16:01.:16:04.

not sure I have the ear to the minister, politics is a difficult

:16:04.:16:07.

job. I'm concerned about the increasing difficulty that some

:16:07.:16:11.

parents are having parenting well, not malicious parents like Daniel's

:16:11.:16:14.

parents, parents are becoming more poor and destitute and just can't

:16:14.:16:18.

do what they want to do for their children. I'm concerned about the

:16:18.:16:22.

blame culture. And we have heard to from the local MP in Coventry the

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demand that people lose their jobs. That is not helpful, these are

:16:26.:16:30.

dedicated people doing a difficult job in distressing circumstances,

:16:30.:16:34.

we need more not less of them. To take people off the pitch when they

:16:34.:16:36.

are very experienced is not a good idea actually.

:16:36.:16:40.

Thank you very much. The stand-off continues in Cairo tonight as

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supporters of deposed Mohamed Morsi defy the army's order to move out

:16:45.:16:50.

of their protest camps. Since the military ousted Mr Morsi on the 3rd

:16:50.:16:53.

July, police have been rounding up his fellow leaders from the Muslim

:16:53.:16:56.

Brotherhood, and charging them with incitement to violence. Despite

:16:56.:17:00.

being voted in as Egypt's first democratically elected Government,

:17:00.:17:05.

with its hierarchy in tatters is there any way back for Egypt's

:17:05.:17:14.

Islamist party. As the heat of the Ramadan days

:17:14.:17:20.

eases, the political temperature rises at Rabaa al-Adawiya.

:17:20.:17:23.

Thousands come to demonstrate their support for the Muslim Brotherhood,

:17:23.:17:27.

and to bolster those who remain here all the time, activists who

:17:28.:17:32.

are ready to sacrifice everything. We want to die really, we want to

:17:32.:17:41.

die for our freedom. That's history, we are writing history now.

:17:41.:17:46.

Dozens have already died here, it is the fallen who are extoled at

:17:46.:17:55.

evening demonstrations. Martyrs be happy, chants the boy, and wait for

:17:55.:18:00.

us at the gates of heaven. And this sacrifice makes it even harder for

:18:00.:18:04.

the party to stomach the humiliation of being turned out of

:18:05.:18:11.

power one month ago. The Muslim Brotherhood leadership

:18:11.:18:15.

still demands the clock be turned back. Mr Morsi now is our President

:18:15.:18:23.

for his term, four years, ending after three years. But he can go to

:18:23.:18:29.

another election in another term or not. It is a matter of democracy.

:18:29.:18:35.

Democracy means respect of the institution. You cannot go to Mr

:18:35.:18:42.

Hollande now in France who is having a low score of public

:18:42.:18:46.

opinion about 25, and generals saying we want you out because you

:18:46.:18:49.

are not popular. This is not democracy at all. The Brotherhood

:18:49.:18:54.

strove for power for decades once they got it they angered many

:18:54.:18:57.

Egyptians who felt they put part interests ahead of national unity.

:18:57.:19:02.

Now their enemies abuse them of provoking violence to keep the

:19:02.:19:08.

country tottering. I know for a fact that the

:19:08.:19:10.

Government and security organisations in Egypt doesn't want

:19:10.:19:15.

to deal with it the hard way, they want to deal with it the easy way.

:19:15.:19:20.

I'm not sure the other party wants the same thing or not. I believe

:19:20.:19:24.

they want to do it the hard way. I'm a talking about the Muslim

:19:24.:19:28.

Brotherhood, to do it the hard way. Because again they want, they are

:19:28.:19:32.

very good in that by the way, they are very good at talking to the

:19:32.:19:34.

international media and the international community. They want

:19:34.:19:39.

to look in front of them as the victims, and more blood, and they

:19:39.:19:42.

are killing us and all this kind of stuff. They will not accept the

:19:42.:19:46.

easy way. I'm sure they will provoke the police in order for

:19:46.:19:50.

them, they will shoot them first, kill someone and retaliate, and

:19:50.:19:54.

then you will see more blood. That is what they want.

:19:54.:19:59.

Yesterday's Government pledged to clear the camp wasn't the first.

:19:59.:20:04.

Mornings here are a time for quiet and reflection. The Ramadan fast

:20:04.:20:08.

prohibits eating and drinking during daylight. Many spend the

:20:08.:20:16.

night up and sleep during the morning. Not Hossein Mousavi, he's

:20:16.:20:22.

29, well educated -- Ali, he is 29, well educated and a father. He

:20:22.:20:27.

feels the stakes couldn't be higher. We will lose our life, we know that,

:20:27.:20:30.

we have no problem with that, what we are looking for is very

:20:30.:20:34.

expensive, you know, it is our freedom, our President, our country,

:20:34.:20:38.

our democracy. It is very, very expensive. Our life doesn't mean

:20:38.:20:42.

for that. We are looking for a good life for our children and our sons.

:20:42.:20:47.

But this isn't just about a battle of wills, it is also a contest of

:20:47.:20:52.

nerve and guile. There are limits on both sides. From a purely

:20:52.:20:57.

military point of view this area is pretty indefensible, you have got

:20:57.:21:01.

broad avenues of approach, from the west, and off to the north, where

:21:01.:21:05.

there are substantial military forces just waiting. There are also

:21:05.:21:09.

military installations inside this area controlled by the brotherhood

:21:09.:21:14.

that might allow them a pretext to come in. But of course coming in

:21:14.:21:19.

here in force could cause a huge loss of life, and the symbolic

:21:19.:21:23.

importance of doing something that would defile this mosque couldn't

:21:23.:21:28.

be underestimated too. So it is a thorny dilemma for the country's

:21:28.:21:34.

military rulers. And while the authorities ponder just how to end

:21:34.:21:38.

this stalemate soldiers stationed around the mosque keep watch on the

:21:38.:21:43.

Cummings and goings. Many local people would rather it

:21:44.:21:53.

was all over. Not far away this woman watched the Muslim

:21:53.:22:00.

Brotherhood protests with disgust. We heard that some of the Muslim

:22:00.:22:10.
:22:10.:22:10.

Brotherhood are coming with stuff to have violence. Like many

:22:10.:22:13.

liberal-minded Egyptians, she welcomed the overthrow of President

:22:13.:22:21.

Morsi, and wants the Brotherhood removed but without violence if

:22:21.:22:24.

possible. I hope that they will work it out and know that Morsi

:22:24.:22:29.

will never come back. And they are part of this society and this

:22:29.:22:36.

country and they have and we keep telling them one day after another

:22:36.:22:46.

for the young men, from the Muslim Brotherhood, to go home. There is

:22:46.:22:54.

also cold comfort for the Brotherhood away from urban Cairo.

:22:54.:22:59.

Manzura is a Nile delta town where Islamic parties have done well

:22:59.:23:03.

electorally. But even here many support the general who toppled the

:23:03.:23:12.

President, and the Brotherhood's rival the Salafist party stand to

:23:12.:23:16.

benefit in elections. We went to speak to their national spokesman

:23:16.:23:19.

who explained the party's position in terms of President Morsi's

:23:19.:23:24.

catalogue of errors. TRANSLATION: We realiseded if Morsi

:23:24.:23:29.

were to continue in power it would be a problem. How could he govern

:23:29.:23:34.

under these circumstances? So we advised the President ahead of June

:23:34.:23:40.

30th. We suggested some political solutions for the situation we had

:23:40.:23:44.

recognised the dangers of division. We suggested an initiative to

:23:44.:23:50.

change the Government and the head of the Supreme Court. But no-one

:23:50.:23:56.

took our initiative seriously. the Brotherhood finds itself

:23:56.:24:00.

asailed from both sides of the political spectrum. It is one thing

:24:00.:24:04.

for the protesters to promise a fight to the death, but the numbers

:24:04.:24:09.

turning up here are down. As the sun dipped and people ended their

:24:09.:24:15.

day's Ramadan fast, some told us off camera Morsi's fate is less

:24:15.:24:19.

important than political survival. Even their spokesman, while

:24:19.:24:23.

demanding the deposed President's return, wouldn't close the door on

:24:23.:24:28.

taking part in elections later this year. Nobody can go to the ballot

:24:28.:24:35.

under these circumstances. No security, the economy is destroyed,

:24:35.:24:42.

tourism is now no tourists and the people are not convinced at all by

:24:42.:24:48.

this civilian Government. That sound like a boycott? Not boycott,

:24:48.:24:54.

we are looking to restore democracy, that means respect of the choices

:24:55.:24:59.

of the people, not cancelling it by tanks. The military says it wants

:24:59.:25:04.

to see the Muslim Brotherhood running in elections, but that

:25:04.:25:08.

"will they won't they"? Is part of a bigger negotiation about

:25:08.:25:12.

restoring democracy. Whether these people are shifted from here by

:25:12.:25:17.

violence or apathy, the question will remain as to whether the

:25:17.:25:20.

Muslim Brotherhood's brand of politics can be reconciled with

:25:20.:25:24.

democracy on the terms that the Egyptian military will allow it.

:25:24.:25:31.

All sorts of issues from the future freedom of ex-President Morsi, to

:25:31.:25:35.

the possible boycott of elections by the Brotherhood, will be bar

:25:35.:25:39.

againing chips in trying to reconcile the apparently

:25:39.:25:44.

irreconcilable. Going in now might appeal to some

:25:44.:25:48.

hardline generals, but few think they can abolish the Muslim

:25:48.:25:53.

Brotherhood in what it stands for. And here too their fast ended, the

:25:53.:25:57.

party's supporters have a profound faith that their political struggle

:25:57.:26:03.

must go on. That will be a bit of a squeeze on

:26:03.:26:09.

the benches, as 30 new peers prepare to join the 755 active

:26:09.:26:14.

members already in the House of Lords. Among those elevated in

:26:14.:26:18.

today's announcement, Doreen Lawrence, mother of the murdered

:26:18.:26:24.

teenager, Stephen Lawrence, Anthony Bamford, hid of the JCB form. And

:26:24.:26:28.

Brian Paddick, former Chief Constable. There were a couple of

:26:28.:26:33.

names that viewers of Newsnight might be, common as muck David

:26:33.:26:38.

Grossman reports. They are all with us now, Olly Grender the woman who

:26:38.:26:41.

plugged Vince Cable into the grid, and the sage of Pinner, Danny

:26:41.:26:46.

Finkelstein. Now we know the quickest way to a seat in the Lords

:26:46.:26:51.

is via a seat on the no less prestigious Newsnight panel,

:26:51.:26:57.

delivering sage words to the British public since 2007. Olly

:26:57.:27:00.

Grender for the Liberal Democrats and Danny Finkelstein for the

:27:00.:27:03.

Conservatives created live peers today. I went to talk to them to

:27:03.:27:08.

talk about their new role. Unfortunately we had transfor the

:27:08.:27:13.

issues. I'm really sorry, I'm here now. Danny's cab went not to the

:27:13.:27:18.

House of Lords but Lord's. I can't see you, where are you? Stay where

:27:18.:27:23.

you are and I will come and find you. I will come and find you! When

:27:23.:27:27.

I did eventually find Danny it was in an unfamiliar position,

:27:27.:27:30.

somewhere to the right of the members' enclosure and a strange

:27:30.:27:35.

place for a political panellist sitting on the fence. The Newsnight

:27:35.:27:39.

panel is what won it, don't you think. Actually funnily enough the

:27:39.:27:43.

decision to go on to the Newsnight panel and to talk about having been

:27:43.:27:47.

an official for the Conservative Party and still be interested in

:27:47.:27:51.

that part of the work that I have done in the past did play a role

:27:51.:27:54.

funnily enough. Because people probably saw me doing some of that

:27:54.:27:58.

sort of strategic thinking, maybe thought I could play a role in the

:27:58.:28:01.

House of Lords as well, doing something up there. It is not just

:28:01.:28:05.

us making a joke of it. You think it might have actually had

:28:05.:28:09.

something to do with it? It is mainly you making a joke of it.

:28:09.:28:13.

is a less succinct world, a let cut and thrust world than perhaps the

:28:13.:28:16.

Newsnight panel? Although I think actually what we were trying to do

:28:16.:28:20.

on the Newsnight panel, what we always try to do is not to make

:28:20.:28:24.

partisan points but try to use our political experience to shed light

:28:24.:28:27.

on what is happening in politics. I never like to go on the Newsnight

:28:27.:28:32.

panel and make a pro-Tory point, it is very boring and you have a lot

:28:32.:28:35.

of politician on to do that. Exactly the same case as with the

:28:35.:28:38.

House of Lords. The approach we use on the Newsnight panel Olly also

:28:38.:28:44.

uses, I hope we will use that in the House of Lords. We come from a

:28:44.:28:47.

political background. I'm a centre right person, I want the

:28:47.:28:52.

Conservative programmes to be put into effect broadly, but I'm

:28:52.:28:56.

capable of a degree of independence, that is what the House of Lords

:28:56.:28:59.

should be about. It is still technically possible to become a

:28:59.:29:02.

peer without being on the Newsnight panel, as proved today by new

:29:02.:29:04.

Conservative Lords Sir Anthony Bamford, chairman and managing

:29:04.:29:09.

director of JCB, and Oliver Wendell Holmes, former Paralympic swimmer.

:29:09.:29:14.

For Labour by Doreen Lawrence, the mother of Stephen Lawrence, and

:29:14.:29:17.

Charles Allen of the Olympic organising committee. For the

:29:18.:29:20.

Liberal Democrats Brian Paddick, former Deputy Assistant

:29:20.:29:24.

Commissioner in the Met and candidate for London, and James

:29:24.:29:30.

Palumbo chairman of the Ministry of Sound group, and Jenny Jones,

:29:30.:29:35.

former mayoral candidate. What about the other half of the

:29:35.:29:41.

ennobled panel, we never found out where Olly's cab had taken her, but

:29:41.:29:46.

we did reach her on the phone. Most of this is because of your work on

:29:46.:29:52.

Newsnight? I put it all down to for six years occasionally sitting on a

:29:52.:29:56.

sofa on Newsnight being asked for my opinion on politics. I'm sure

:29:56.:30:00.

you would agree with that. Now you are both in the Lords will you

:30:00.:30:03.

still talk to Danny? I have never stopped talking to Danny

:30:03.:30:06.

Finkelstein. As you know we here at Newsnight thrive on political

:30:06.:30:13.

conflict, it is our job to mix it up a bit? I don't know, I have

:30:13.:30:17.

spoken to Olly, she says now she's in the House of Lords and you are,

:30:17.:30:24.

she can't really talk to you any more? As I said before I thought

:30:24.:30:27.

she mainly interrupted me with the silly points while I was making

:30:27.:30:31.

good ones, there will be no difference. Or he could do the

:30:31.:30:35.

reverse but there is a sense at the moment he's sitting on the fence.

:30:35.:30:39.

It is also a rough period. ultimately turned out...Meanwhile

:30:39.:30:42.

As word went around Westminster that two of our panel had gone on

:30:42.:30:47.

to the Other Place, our phone went mad with would-be replacements.

:30:47.:30:50.

Hello Newsnight? Afterall it is a far cheaper route to the Lords than

:30:50.:30:55.

a big political donation and the Newsnight Green Room as twiglets.

:30:55.:30:58.

We are not looking at anyone for the moment for the panel, we will

:30:58.:31:04.

let you know. Thanks for calling, goodbye. It has no twiglets, I

:31:04.:31:08.

checked. Let's discuss what the Newsnight and non-Newsnight peers

:31:08.:31:14.

will be getting up to. I'm joined from he had butter ra from one of

:31:15.:31:20.

the new Lib Dem peers, and the chief executive of the Electoral

:31:20.:31:25.

Reform Society. Shall we start with you Jeremy Purvis, 784 peers in the

:31:25.:31:30.

House. Can they cope without you? Without me, I'm sure they can. I

:31:30.:31:33.

don't claim that I'm going to be bringing anything particularly

:31:33.:31:37.

strong to it. I have not been on your Newsnight panel, I have been

:31:37.:31:41.

on Newsnight Scotland on many occasion, I'm not sure if that has

:31:41.:31:46.

been an addition to my CV that has helped. I hope to bring a little

:31:46.:31:49.

bit of perhaps more representation from the nations into the House of

:31:49.:31:54.

Lords, I can't claim that I'm bringing any more democrat ic

:31:54.:31:58.

legitimacy for any time I served as a member of the Scottish Parliament

:31:58.:32:02.

for two terms. I hope to make a contribution to make the House of

:32:02.:32:04.

Lords more representative for the nation, including those from

:32:05.:32:11.

Scotland. In all seriousness though, 784, nowhere to sit, according to

:32:11.:32:15.

David Steel. This place is just overstuffed, you are not going to

:32:15.:32:20.

be able to be heard, let alone anything else? My job is to make

:32:20.:32:23.

sure I am heard. I will be approaching this as a serious job.

:32:23.:32:27.

It will be my main job absolutely. I have no other independent source

:32:27.:32:31.

of income. What do you want to do there, I want to know what will you

:32:31.:32:35.

do when you get in there? One of the parts of discussions I had with

:32:35.:32:39.

Nick Clegg when he asked me to do this, and the leader of the

:32:39.:32:42.

Scottish Liberal Democrats, is to may a part in making sure that the

:32:43.:32:47.

-- play a part that the reform of the House of Lords and generally

:32:47.:32:53.

for the UK to play a part in the referendum in Scotland. Up until

:32:53.:32:59.

last year I led a cross-party group which was arguing for reform to the

:32:59.:33:02.

UK, strengthening the Scottish Parliament, making it more

:33:02.:33:05.

accountable and a positive alternative to independence. That

:33:05.:33:09.

is a platform in the Lords that I'm able to use, I think it might be

:33:09.:33:12.

slightly different than some of the other peers for the interests they

:33:12.:33:17.

have. I will be broadening that. have heard a few Lib Dem peers to

:33:17.:33:23.

say they are going in to reform the place, one sniff and they are

:33:23.:33:28.

forgetting all of that and it is a comfy place? I was keen on

:33:28.:33:31.

reforming Scottish Parliament. Being a member of the House of

:33:31.:33:36.

Lords was not part of any of my life game plan. I'm 30 years

:33:36.:33:40.

younger than the average age of the peers. I was born and brought up in

:33:40.:33:43.

a council house, my dad was an ambulance driver and my mum worked

:33:43.:33:48.

in a shop. I won't make myself comfortable, this is a proper job

:33:49.:33:54.

and I will do it to the best of my ability. It is a whiff of new blood,

:33:54.:33:58.

300 years younger than the people sitting in there. That is a God

:33:58.:34:02.

thing, right? The problem with the new appointments is they

:34:02.:34:05.

demonstrate the point with democraticing will get macy. The

:34:05.:34:09.

House of Lords is bursting at the scenes, you talked about having

:34:09.:34:14.

somewhere comfy to sit. There are 400 places to sit, there are 800

:34:14.:34:18.

peers. The electoral research shows there will be 1,000 peers to come

:34:18.:34:21.

and 2,000 peers after the next general election. What do you want

:34:22.:34:28.

to do? We are the second-largest chamber in the world after China.

:34:28.:34:32.

We have to put a stop to it t the party leaders have to get around a

:34:32.:34:35.

table and put their heads together. We need a smaller more efficient

:34:35.:34:38.

House of Lords. We strongly believe it should be elected by the people.

:34:38.:34:42.

That is a greyer version for the House of Commons, you are asking

:34:42.:34:45.

for people to get elevated to a higher house and it looks the same?

:34:45.:34:49.

It is a fantasy at the moment that we have independence and expertise

:34:49.:34:53.

in large quantities in the House of Lords. Most of the people in the

:34:54.:34:57.

House of Lords are either party political people, a lot of them are

:34:57.:35:01.

ex-politicians or party donor, we need to open up our politics from

:35:01.:35:04.

people of all walks of life and talent, the most important thing we

:35:04.:35:09.

have to do is sort out this super- sized second chamber which makes us

:35:09.:35:12.

a laughing stock around the world. The problem is when you ask people,

:35:12.:35:17.

I'm looking at the latest YouGov poll on reform from the House of

:35:17.:35:20.

Lords, from June, only 18% of people could be bothered about this.

:35:20.:35:25.

Most thought it is a bit of a smoke screen and diverts you from more

:35:25.:35:28.

important matters? You are absolutely right to say it is never

:35:28.:35:31.

going to be stop of voters' shopping lists, but over half and

:35:31.:35:35.

up to three quarter of people when asked say we want to be able to

:35:35.:35:39.

elect our law makers. Let's go back to you Jeremy. We have been doing a

:35:39.:35:43.

few sums. If the House of Lords of open 24 hours a day, and all the

:35:43.:35:47.

peers spoke one after the other, without any toilet break, no

:35:47.:35:54.

popping out for sandwiches, nothing. You would get two minutes to speak.

:35:54.:35:57.

This is ludicrous, if you want to reform something you don't become

:35:57.:36:04.

part of the establishment do you? As an MSPI I had timed stpeechs of

:36:04.:36:08.

three and four minutes, I don't think it is necessarily the case

:36:08.:36:11.

that very long speeches are always very good. Your point is a serious

:36:11.:36:14.

one, I think that certainly as far as reform, it can be in two stages

:36:14.:36:18.

of making sure it is a reduced chamber and it is more efficient as

:36:18.:36:21.

a chamber. That is part of the agenda where I think there is

:36:21.:36:25.

growing consensus of having effectively retirement for that.

:36:25.:36:29.

That would reduce the scale drammatically. I want it to be

:36:29.:36:35.

reformed, I don't want it to be a version of the House of Commons, I

:36:35.:36:40.

want it to be representative, democratically legitimate but

:36:40.:36:44.

representative of the nations and rojs across the UK. A more --

:36:44.:36:49.

regions across the UK. A more federal chamber. Do you have a time

:36:49.:36:52.

limit, you will say I'm going to be here for five years f I can't

:36:52.:36:58.

reform I'm out of here, I can't take the �300 day, that's it?

:36:58.:37:02.

is an interesting angle and what I would like to argue the case is the

:37:02.:37:05.

referendum in Scotland and the lively debate that is happening in

:37:05.:37:09.

Wales at the moment should be a way of bringing this debate back to the

:37:09.:37:13.

table. It not simply about electing a set of politicians in the second

:37:13.:37:19.

chamber of which the public, as you have right low said has very

:37:19.:37:23.

limited interest -- rightly said has very limited interest in it.

:37:23.:37:27.

But parts of England are hungry for a reformed Westminster and the

:37:27.:37:36.

institutions of the UK. It sound as if you are there for the long haul.

:37:36.:37:42.

Jeremy, Lord Purvis, thank you very much indeed. My thanks also to

:37:42.:37:49.

Katie Ghosh. Elated Iranians took to the streets shouting "bye bye

:37:50.:37:53.

Ahmed" after the news in the presidential election broke. It

:37:53.:37:57.

certainly didn't seem as if anyone was too bad to see Mahmoud

:37:57.:38:07.
:38:07.:38:07.

Ahmadinejad pass into retirement. With food inflation at 20% and

:38:07.:38:10.

sanctions on oil exports of the country costing the country more

:38:10.:38:15.

than half of its source of income. How will the new ruler keep the

:38:15.:38:19.

people's spirits up. We will hear from Tehran from one of the

:38:19.:38:23.

President's closest aides in a moment. Who is the man who is about

:38:23.:38:33.
:38:33.:38:36.

to take power? He is the face that people hope is the acceptable face

:38:36.:38:40.

of Iran. He will take office at the weekend, eight years of Mahmoud

:38:40.:38:48.

Ahmadinejad's rule is coming to a close. The jubilation when the

:38:48.:38:52.

streets when he won the elections last month was palpable for all to

:38:52.:39:02.
:39:02.:39:02.

see. A far cry from images of the last elections in 2009, when

:39:02.:39:05.

violence and bloodshed hit the country, after protestors clashed

:39:05.:39:09.

with Government forces over disputed results when Ahmadinejad

:39:09.:39:19.
:39:19.:39:21.

claimed to have won. But despite the reel operations he faces a

:39:21.:39:27.

herculean task ahead of him, solve the nuclear problem and sanctions.

:39:27.:39:37.

Plus there is the on going tensions with neighbours. There is

:39:37.:39:41.

expectations for a move away from the hardline stance from the past.

:39:41.:39:48.

That didn't stop him giving the west some advice. TRANSLATION:

:39:48.:39:52.

time of sanctions is passed, even the west knows that they are facing

:39:52.:39:55.

problems and the sanctions are not in their interest either.

:39:56.:40:01.

America and Israel are still wary of Iran's nuclear capablities. He

:40:01.:40:04.

might be reassuring the public about a transparent programme, but

:40:04.:40:09.

ultimately it is the country's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali

:40:09.:40:13.

Khamenei, a staunch conservative who decides on these matters. But

:40:13.:40:17.

he also presides over a crippled economy, inflation is soaring at

:40:17.:40:24.

over 40%, the highest in the region, with many ordinary Iranians

:40:24.:40:29.

suffering and hungry, not just for food but for reform. One of the

:40:29.:40:32.

President's closest allies will be Dr Mohammad Nahavandian, an

:40:32.:40:36.

economist who is currently in charge of the commerce chambers, he

:40:36.:40:41.

will be steering the President through the difficult months ahead.

:40:41.:40:45.

A little earlier I spoke to Mohammad Nahavandian, and I asked

:40:45.:40:51.

him what could be expected in this new President's Iran? Everybody is

:40:51.:41:01.
:41:01.:41:03.

hopeful that we will have a more harmonised economy, more harmonised

:41:03.:41:10.

Government and more participation by people in the state of the

:41:10.:41:17.

country in economic issues and political issues as well.

:41:17.:41:21.

people are asking for two very difficult things, they are asking

:41:21.:41:26.

him to fix a failing economy, they are asking him to make sure that

:41:26.:41:33.

sanctions are loosened. How is he going to start trying to do that?

:41:33.:41:41.

There are some problems with some countries which have accumulated

:41:41.:41:51.
:41:51.:41:53.

through time, but the direction for mutual trust and mutual confidence

:41:53.:42:00.

is accepted by people and in check issues we are seeing a lot of

:42:00.:42:09.

interest being expressed by private sector, domestic and foreign to r

:42:09.:42:15.

for having investments in -- and foreign for having investments in

:42:15.:42:19.

many parts of the Iranian economy. You talk about problems that have

:42:19.:42:22.

built up over time with certain countries. Let's talk about two of

:42:22.:42:27.

those countries, and when news reached Benjamin Netanyahu about

:42:28.:42:35.

the election of Mr Rouhani, and he said this is a man who called

:42:35.:42:39.

Ahmadinejad a wolf in wolf's clothe, he is a wolf in sheep's clothe, he

:42:39.:42:43.

smiles but builds a bomb. Does that mean relations with Israel will be

:42:43.:42:48.

as bad as they ever have been with your new leader? That kind of

:42:48.:42:58.
:42:58.:42:59.

wording is not going to help. To help solving any problems. This is

:42:59.:43:06.

a new opportunity for the world, for the west, for Iran as well to

:43:06.:43:16.
:43:16.:43:16.

put the issues that we have differences of opinion in a new

:43:17.:43:23.

perspective and find a kind of solution which is win-win. Iran is

:43:23.:43:29.

a country with a great deal of influence in the region, what do

:43:29.:43:36.

you see in President Assad of Syria that the rest of the world cannot?

:43:36.:43:46.
:43:46.:43:52.

When foreign interests come into play and allow extremist factors

:43:52.:44:01.

play a role, violence can prevent democracy from giving the people

:44:01.:44:08.

the right of self-rule. Will Iran row back from its nuclear ambition?

:44:08.:44:18.

Nuclear technology is a technology that every nation has to have its

:44:18.:44:25.

right for peaceful use. Iran has always plain taind that the

:44:25.:44:28.

intention here has -- maintained that the intention has been only

:44:28.:44:38.

for peaceful uses, not only taking care and following the

:44:38.:44:43.

international obligations, but also from religious points of view, Iran

:44:43.:44:52.

has been of the opinion that nuclear arms are not allowed

:44:52.:45:00.

according to Islamic law. I think those misunderstandings can go away

:45:00.:45:09.

if all sides take a new approach in negotiations. Thank you very much

:45:09.:45:19.
:45:19.:45:47.

for being with us. Morning papers:

:45:47.:45:51.

That is all that we have time for. I will be here to do it all over

:45:51.:46:01.
:46:01.:46:25.

again tomorrow night, until then good night. Whilst today was a day

:46:25.:46:28.

of contrast with rain in the north and heat in the south-east, things

:46:28.:46:31.

will be a little more straight forward tomorrow, it looks as

:46:31.:46:34.

though it will be sunny spells and scattered showers. Those showers

:46:34.:46:37.

perhaps thundery in the central and eastern areas first thing in the

:46:37.:46:41.

morning. By the middle of the afternoon it will be a better

:46:41.:46:43.

afternoon in Northern Ireland and Scotland, particularly in

:46:43.:46:46.

comparison to today. There will be a few showers, but inbetween some

:46:46.:46:50.

lovely sunny spells. It will feel quite pleasant. Perhaps sheltered

:46:50.:46:54.

and eastern areas staying dry all day. Highest values for 22 degrees.

:46:54.:46:57.

A few showers across northern England. There will be decent

:46:57.:47:01.

breaks in the cloud and a pleasant feel. A little fresher than today,

:47:01.:47:05.

that may well be welcome news. We will still got the heat into East

:47:05.:47:09.

Anglia and still humidity with a few showers here to come. A little

:47:09.:47:12.

more cloud with sharper showers into the south west and parts of

:47:12.:47:15.

Wales. But, as the nature of showers you may well escape them

:47:15.:47:19.

all together and keep the sunshine and with a fresher feel it will

:47:19.:47:22.

feel more pleasant. As we move towards Friday and into the weekend,

:47:23.:47:28.

the risk of showers increases and the fresher scenario stays with us.

:47:28.:47:32.

London may well stay dry, there will be more sunshine around on

:47:32.:47:38.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Anita Anand.


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