20/09/2013 Newsnight


The stories behind the headlines with Gavin Esler. A UKIP MEP wrecks his party conference with a gaffe rampage, vigilante paedophile hunters, and why Apple are on their way out.

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From Bongo Bongo Land to "sluts" the UKIP MEP who wrecked his own


party conference with foot-in-mouth disease. I said "you're all sluts"


and we all had a jolly good laugh. Why is that funny? I thought it was


funny and everyone in the room thought it was funny, why not ask


them why they lost. He lost the whip, has the party lost the plot


we will hear from one of Godfrey Bloom's UKIP colleagues. The


vigilantes hunting paedophiles. The children groomed for sex on the


Internet in their own homes. Is rough justice ever part of the


solution. We have the inside story. As BlackBerry tonight shed more


than 4,000 jobs one of the top business thinkers tells Newsnight


which smart companies will be next to fail. Nokia is essentially gone,


BlackBerry is essentially gone. And now Apple is next.


Good evening, so it is your big moment as a political leader toe


party conference. You promise a political earthquake and suggest


your ambitions are almost limitness. Then you find out one of your


closest political friends has described women who don't do proper


house cleaning "sluts" and hit someone on the head with a party


conference programme. Not a scene from a sitcom, but today at the


UKIP conference. We have been discussing sluts and other matters


with the man at the centre of it all, UKIP MEP, Godfrey Bloom.


Britain is going to make the great escape. Good morning. Please


welcome Nigel Farage. A hero's welcome for the man making UKIP


grow up. Nigel Farage even had the mandatory pumping music, so beloved


of our politicians. The day started so well for him. What I suggest we


do is we turn the European elections May 22nd and give our as


an opportunity to give our opinion on the European Union and open


borders. Here we are outside the UKIP conference boozer, moments


away from Downing Street and the corridors of power. What would


happen if Nigel Farage's party got lucky, very, very lucky, but lucky


enough to get anywhere near power in 2015. Is his team ready? The


events of today suggest not. Nigel Farage we have just found you in


the pub at 3.00, if you were PM you wouldn't be able to do that? Why


not. Are you ready for Government, personally? We are not going to be


forming a Government in 2015, of course we are not. That is a


ridiculous jump to even contemplate, however, if we get our ducks in a


row, and we target effectively and sensibly in 2015 we will get a good


representation of UKIP MPs over there in Westminster. Who knows,


may even hold the balance of power? Nigel Farage has been attempting to


clean up his party and equip them with sensible policies. Mere


moments later he would suffer a setback in this endeavour. As we


were speaks, down the road his economic spokesman was being


kippered, or U-kippered. What do you make of the front of the


conference brochure with no black comments on it. What a racist


comment, that is an appalling thing to say, you are picking people out


for the colour of their skin, you disgust me, get out of my way.


REPORTER: What is appalling about making that point? You, Sir, are a


racist. REPORTER: What is racist? You have taken this and picked out


the colour of people's faces, it is disgraceful! He then arrived to see


Newsnight, what about other he made at the lunchtime event. Jane


Collins the speaker said I don't clean behind the fridge and none of


the ladies said they didn't clean behind the fridge, and I said


you're all shrults, you are untidy you leave your kit hanging around,


has your mother never called you a slut. She has called me other


things, but not that. It was no malice, it was a joke, it was all


on camera. And if you listen to what was said you will know that


on camera. And if you listen to was a joke appreciated by everybody


there, men and women alike. A lot of people watching won't like that,


do you understand why? It depends, you are skewing this, why not ask


the ladies who were there. It you are skewing this, why not ask


fun, it was a joke, and most people in Britain have a sense of humour,


even if you don't. But there are two sides to UKIP,


Diane James stood in and very nearly won the Eastleigh by-


election, like Nigel Farage she was not happy with Bloom. Are you


election, like Nigel Farage she was saying that when you put a slate of


candidates forward in 2015 that they will of your ilk or of Godfrey


Bloom's ilk, they are probably listening to him today and being


worried. I would say they will be of my ilk, thank you for that


compliment. The process we have gone through to select our MEP


candidates, I'm sure you will trip me up with Godfrey got through that.


The point is over 300 people put their names forward, that was


whittled down to over 200, 60 have come through. It was meant to be an


upbeat conference, but Farrage accused bloom blom of destroying it,


and UKIP -- Bloom of destroying it and UKIP withdrew the whip from him.


David Cameron described UKIP once as "fruitcakes" he regrets that now,


but Nigel Farage seems to be picking the fruitier bits from the


cake, that is a long exercise and my mother could tell him that.


I am a joined by Roger Helmer from UKIP. How big a problem do you have


with fruitcakes from the party? We have a problem with the remarks


Godfrey made sod, I'm not here to defend them. The whole party is


saddened. We were having a great conference with some serious stuff,


and I quite understand that the whole media story now is Godfrey


Bloom. It is a disaster for you? In media presentation of our


conference it is not good news. You knew about him after Bongo Bongo


Land and other things, you knew and Nigel Farage knew he could be a


problem. Why not just get rid of him before, it is about Nigel


Farage's leadership? He's a colourful and outspoken character,


and we all can be and we have lots of those. Bongo Bongo Land, that is


colourful? I thought that was just about liveable with, today it was


not liveable with and the party is right to withdraw the whip. Isn't


it because it spoiled your conference, not because of the


"sluts" comment and the Bongo Bongo Land, that wouldn't have been


acceptable. Wouldn't it be acceptable as long as it didn't


upstage Nigel Farage, which it did? Godfrey tries to justify it by


saying it was a joke, if you listen to the tape everybody there laughed.


In the context of the meeting it was accepted as a light-hearted


remark. But it shows, in my view, a serious misjudgment, because any


politician would know that a light- hearted remark can be picked out


and shown on the television in a different situation and everybody


says quite rightly that was one wise and not the right thing to say.


Saying to somebody from the media "you are a racist" for pointing out


of the 200-pictures on your conference programme they are white


faces, and then whacking them on the head, that is not a joke? It is


not acceptable, and the first line he might have got away with, I


don't know, that piece of behaviour, it is the job of politicians to


communicate with the public. It is the job of politicians to


communicate with the media in an orderly and decent way. And frankly


I was shocked when I saw that. Were you also shocked when it was


pointed out that all these faces are white, or does that not matter?


What I would point out to you is we have a list of 60 candidates for


What I would point out to you is we our MEP election next year, and


there is a significant number, don't ask me how many, because I


haven't added it up, of ethnic minorities and incidentally women,


we have women likely to be elected, I'm delighted by that. You don't


have a problem the brochure, 200 pictures all of white people? I


wasn't aware of that until we saw it on the television. Would you


change it now? If we could go back we would do it differently. You can


see the image problem, Nigel Farage made a speech very well received in


the hall, he talked about wanting made a speech very well received in


the country back and people nodding, and people looking at this will say


the country you want back might be a country where it is OK to have


200 white people and no black a country where it is OK to have


people on the brochure and women cleaning behind the fridge? We want


a country where women can stand for the Westminster parliament and for


the European Parliament, where people of ethnic minorities can do


sow and are respected, that applies in our party. This is why we are


disappointed by these remarks, as you rightly say. It gives the wrong


impression of our party. Just a final thought, will the party be


much more disciplined now or if Mr Bloom, who is still a member,


continues as a member, people might think it is still OK to say these


things. You have to get rid of him, don't you? We are a party with a


constitution and rules. It was possible to withdrew the whip on


constitution and rules. It was the spur of the moment in an


emergency situation, the Party Chairman has the right to do that.


The National Executive Committee must consider the situation and


must make an appropriate decision. It is not for me to make that


decision, they will make that decision and we will see which way


it goes. decision and we will see which way


Phil Collins a columnist on the Times is here as is Isabel Hardman


of the Spectator. Does this matter very much in terms of UKIP's image?


I think it does. Godfrey Bloom is the gift that keeps on giving, he's


fabulous for us. But I think he does have implications for his best


fabulous for us. But I think he buddy Nigel Farage as well. If you


think that Mr Bloom is funny talking about fridge cleaning, you


should hear him on economics, he's hilarious, he's a nationalist,


protectionist, it is closed economy hilarious, he's a nationalist,


nonsense. What's happening here is that UKIP are being exposed as a


non-serious party. You say that, but this could be a grow-up moment,


it could be a moment where the speech which otherwise went down


well from the loader of the party ends up with him disciplining, d


the leader of the party ends up with him disciplining one of his


mates. It was inevitable they would withdrew the whip from Godfrey


today, he has greatest hits of odd comments he has been making over


the years. I have had a run in with him, he said I would be fine to


employ because I could work from home, close to the fridge I would


imagine! It was going today, Nigel Farage gave a good speech and Paul


Nuttall gave a good speech, he's a different story to Nigel Farage,


he's from Liverpool with a good back story, then it all became


about Godfrey hitting a journalist and using an offensive world. Ed


Miliband is saying something interesting tonight about what is


called at least some people call it the bedroom tax. Our conference is


all about how we tackle the cost of living crisis facing so many


families, we will be showing during the course of the week how we


families, we will be showing during going to do that. We are starting


by showing how we would abolish the bedroom tax, by ending boardroom


tax loopholes that this Government is allowing. That is a fair choice


that will help disabled people and is allowing. That is a fair choice


some of the people in the greatest hardship in our country. Phil, do


you think he's on the right side of this, do you think he has done the


right thing for the party conference coming up? I do actually.


I think this is a very bad policy, 70% of people who pay it are


disabled. It's very clear that the housing stock isn't there for


people to move out. People are housing stock isn't there for


already falling into arrears who have never been arrears before. The


already falling into arrears who danger for Ed Miliband is it is


then easy to portray him as soft on welfare. Which has been a worry for


the party for a while? It is a serious predicament for him. He


can't allow this particular policy to be the icon for welfare reform.


can't allow this particular policy Has to do other things. It is


perfectly reasonable to say this is an incompetent policy and the wrong


symbol of welfare reform and putting too great a burden on too


few people. I think he's right. You can understand when it comes to the


conference people like you will say that is a spending


conference people like you will say actually that you are going to make,


how about some other ones in terms actually that you are going to make,


of taxation or other things? Absolutely. I una that Ed Miliband


and Ed Balls had -- I understand that Ed Miliband and Ed Balls had a


row about scrapping this cut, because Ed Miliband doesn't want to


row about scrapping this cut, appear profligate. It is about


appearing tough on this. It is OK about the bedroom tax that is a bad


policy implemented badly. You have to look at other places in welfare


you can appear tough. Labour had a welfare week recently but


you can appear tough. Labour had a sure it cut through to voters. You


have to buy other things, it is not very expensive because it doesn't


raise much money, it is not a very profligate thing to do. It would be


tempting to say let's stick with everything and there is a risk


involved, it is the right thing everything and there is a risk


do, as long as it is accompanied by other things. Do you think this is


not just something that will appeal it the party's left, it might have


broader appeal, given the kind of campaign that has been waged about


this? It is an interesting way of Ed Miliband appealing to the


campaigning groups around the bedroom tax. There is a lot of them


campaigning outside the Lib Dem bedroom tax. There is a lot of them


conference, they are organised and vocal, for him to get them on side


is a good thing. It is not the most popular of the welfare cuts. If you


pledged to scrap the benefit cap, that is the most popular benefit


that pollsters have touched that would be a different thing. There


is a way to do it, we are in favour of welfare reform, the Government


are messing it up and this is an incompetent cut. You have to be


cred be on that. If you were a parent concerned that your child


was being targeted on-line by paedophiles where would you turn.


One young mother who was worried her 15-year-old daughter was being


groomed, chose to take her concerns to a vigilante group on-line,


rather than going to the police. Today the man was jailed for eight


years for offences against children. Our colleagues gained exclusive


access to the vigilante group. To some they are good Samaritans, to


others dang vus vigilante. Here a group of amateur paedophile hunters


chase a man they believe has been trying to meet an under-age girl


for sex. She's 14, you think it is OK to meet her for sex. Since


January, Letzgohunting have been monitoring people on-line they


believe are engaged in on-line grooming. We create a profile on


various internet websites of a young girl, then we just sit and


wait for people to message us. When they do we reply to reiterate our


age and let us see where the conversation goes. Before they


would speak to us the members of the group insisted on innim and


refused to reveal their idea -- anonymity, and refused to reveal


their identity. They claimed their first success. This is the moment


James Stone came face-to-face with Letzgohunting camera. The camera is


for our protection. We exchanged pictures and said would you like to


meet up. The group tracked him down to this bar after a teenager's


mother contacted them worried her daughter was being targeted by a


predatory man. It was the Letzgohunting team through the work


they do, they got the information, and when they told me the severity


of it, I mean I was a wreck. In an ideal world all I wanted to do was


go and find him myself, but I couldn't even walk let alone speak


to police. How much of your on-line


conversation is you encouraging them? If we do it is only to say


hello. We don't encourage them to talk dirty or talk about sexual


acts. We don't encourage them to meet us. We agree when they suggest


things. How quickly are you up front with the fact that you are a


13 or a 14-year-old girl? Instantly, front with the fact that you are a


there is no discrepancy in our age at all. They know straight away.


How quickly can the on-line conversation turn sexual from those


first few contacts to actually making it very obvious they want


more? Within minutes, and I mean minutes. People have done it within


five minutes. The national organisation which protects


children on-line says paedophile investigations should be left to


the experts. Confronting people is really bad practice. It risks loss


of evidence, it riskss people panicking and possibly harming


children as a result, possibly destroying evidence and denying us


a chance to investigate a whole web of activity they are involved. And


not many people will care about it, but it is a real risk we have to


anticipate, the risk of suicide from people whose activities of


this nature who are suddenly exposed goes up quickly. A man


confronted by Letz Go Hunting and arrested by Leicestershire police


and bailed committed suicide four days later. People say you are


responsible for Gary Cleary's death, how do you answer those criticisms?


The team can't be held responsible for his death. He took his own life,


which is unfortunate, our feelings go out to his family and friends


after such an unfortunate event. Jamie is convinced his group is


providing a service the police cannot match. If the police were


providing a service the police doing enough we wouldn't have to.


The fact that without even trying too hard caught 11 people trying to


meet children in one particular area sort of thing, one area of the


country, for sex, that says the police aren't doing enough.


You can see more on the Letz Go Hunting story on BBC One's Inside


You can see more on the Letz Go Out in the East Midlands on Monday


night and on the iPlayer shortly after that.


The latest film In Real Life investigates the secret lives of


teenagers and the Internet for watching porn and other things.


I was struck that many parents just watching that little clip would


actually think that the vigilantes are doing a good job? You could


understand why they would feel that. It is an emotional level, it is


hard not to if you are a parent worried about your children. But


vigilanteism is not the answer. We all know the police are having


difficulty hoping with the volume of these types of crimes. The


answer is to give them the resources they need and not to


reply on all sorts of people for resources they need and not to


all sorts of reasons. It could mess up investigations? How do we know


that the police weren't involved in a major investigation of one of


these individuals, it could be completely destroyed by this type


of activity. You met a lot of teenagers making this film, what


kind of people are we talking about? Are we talking about people


who are particularly vulnerable about? Are we talking about people


the kid next door? We have to be about? Are we talking about people


really careful about the way we look at this problem, it hits the


headlines and this is a grotesque story and we are all upset. What we


have to acknowledge is kids are going on the Internet to learn


about sex. If that's where they are going, then they are going to come


across some very difficult situations. And I think that the


failure is that we're not teaching them about how to manage the on-


line world properly. Some of the things you came up with are quite


shocking, there was a girl so attached to her BlackBerry she was


prepared to be sexually abused in order to get it back when boys took


it? Uch to be careful about "prepared to be". There is a lot of


addictive technology around the net. "prepared to be". There is a lot of


There is a lot of reward mechanism its, kids feel absolutely attached


to their phones in ways that are really inexplicable to us. Once


they get attached to the phone, if they don't have the resources to


replace that phone and they are in a vulnerable situation, they make


some very, very bad choices. Including trusting strangers that


they would never do if this was some stranger that tried to open a


car door to them? Absolutely, there is a culture of anonymity on the


net, that we are not looking at properly. How big a problem are we


actually talking about here. One of the things, people will be very


shocked by this, there is also a danger of some kind of moral panic,


is it a big panic or not? There was another story running today that


new figures that CEOP produced showing the number of cases where


kids were being black mailed on- line by paedophiles into performing


sexual acts, self-laerming, and I think the number -- self-harming,


and the numbers worldwide were 2500 cases they dealt with and 120 in


the UK. I found that a very, very striking number. Bearing in mind


that will only be a fraction of what is actually taking place.


Where does the buck stop, the police, the parents, everybody? I


Where does the buck stop, the don't know? This is a communal


problem, we need a communal solution, that is what's


problematic about a vigilante approach. I think that there is a


lot more social responsibility from these companies. They seem to know


that I want to buy a blue kettle with a whistle, but don't seem to


know where the predators are. In every other part of our life we


have to provide services with care. We have a duty of care to these


kids. I think that I would like to say about the numbers, that in my


filming, which has only been a year, and they don't all appear in the


film at all, I met five young women who had been groomed on-line. Five


and I didn't try that hard to meet them. And it really is very easy. I


mean are the police the right people to do this? You talkeded


about resource, but we're talking about a wider thing, which might


involve something which people don't like the idea of, some kind


of censorship within the Internet itself? Companies have to take more


responsibility about the environments that they are creating


and they are profiting from. Obviously they don't want these


things to happen on those spaces, but they are. They can't walk away


from the responsibility of the consequences of that. Yes the


industry must do more. I think to go back to your point, I think we


do have to start thinking about it go back to your point, I think we


this in a broader way, frame it as a societal question, rather like we


do with public health type issue, the police will not be by any means


the only answer, but they certainly have to be part of it when you come


to paedophile activity like this. Did you in the film, were parents


shock by what their own children were up to, or were they brought on


board? I took a particular decision, there is one set of parents in the


film, only, but mainly because their son died, he was bullied and


died. He committed suicide. But I tried to get the voices of


teenagers. And I think that's something that is really missing in


this moral panic. Is we're not hearing about the voices of


teenagers. A lot of what they do is unconscious and a lot of what they


do, they are not even aware of their engagment in dangerous places.


I think we have to put it in the context of the brilliant and


I think we have to put it in the wonderful things that the net


delivers our kids. We have got a real discussion to have, not just


this panic. Thank you very much both of you.


It was once one of the world's most successful companies, noted for the


innovations but tonight BlackBerry announced a cut of 4,500 jobs. Why


do successful companies fail, not because they do things wrong but


because they do things right. That is the theory of Harvard professor


Clayton Christensen. He's worried innovation itself is in serious


trouble. And some of the world's best known tech firms like Apple,


who launched this week another version of their iPhone had better


take note. We have lived through an age of


innovation, from the modem to broadband to Wi-Fi over a


cappuccino. From the duff car to the electric car, the unmanned


drone, the computer virus and of course the cat video. But is it all


the wrong kind of innovation, since the mid-1990s the Holy Grail has


been disruptive inknow vague. The new machines and techniques that


blow away old ones and create new economies, change the world. The


man who invented the term is -- innovation. The new machines and


techniques that blow away the old ones and create new economies and


change the world. The man who invented the term is Clayton


Christensen. Disruptive innovation transforms complicated and


expensive products into ones that are affordable and accessible that


many more people have access to them. Usually that is good


because......because Many more people have access, the companies


have to hire people to make and distribute them and service and


sell them. And yet our system impedes capital from being used to


start more and more of these empowering innovations.


Instead money is being hoarded inside corporations, or used to


create low-skilled jobs, or to defend monopoly positions that


boost profits in the short-term. So could that stop the economic


recovery from taking off? We need to describe what you have just said


in the present tense, not the future sense. It is here. In


America we are investing and launching only a third of the


disruptive innovations that we used to do in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s,


because of the way we measure things makes capital unwilling to


because of the way we measure invest in those things. In Britain


it is worse. I'm not aware of any truly disruptive innovations that


it is worse. I'm not aware of any have been launched here.


Instead he says the finance systems rewards market dominance, one after


the other, from IBM, to Microsoft, and now Google, Facebook, stock


markets love a big boast. It wasn't always like that. Before 1914 the


US President, Teddy Roosevelt attacked the power of monoplies and


price cartels and that moment is etched into American business


history. Does it not frustrate you that some of these big names in


history are monopoly players, don't you crave a Theodore Roosevelt to


come along and say enough competition? That is a great


observation, and I would say, no. That historically when there has


been a Monday NOP -- monopoly, it hasn't been that the Government


came in and cut them up, but it was disruption that cut them up. And so


IBM was being sued by the Government in America because they


thought it was a Monday NOPy, and what made them -- monopoly, and


what made them and cut them up wasn't that it was the computer.


Right now there is a death match in the smartphone market, between


Apple, with a cut price phone and android backed by Google. The


stakes are high. There is absolutely a they arey that


describes how a pro-primery architect -- pro-primery axe


tebgture. So like the iPod, this could all end in tears? Because


every one of those in the past has could all end in tears? Because


been disrupted by open architectures. Apple has always


been able to cup up with the next closed architecture that targets a


different set of customers in the market. I don't see that coming.


Instead they are taking their iPhone to the fifth generation,


still closed and those on the open...By That we mean looked down


into Apple's world and Apple's world only? That's correct. And


that is what kills companies. Nokia is essentially gone, BlackBerry is


essentially gone, and now Apple is next.


If he's right the most successful tech company in the world had had


better get the head around the idea of disruptive innovation.


That was Paul Mason and we will miss him and wish him well in his


own anyone know vaigs. We leave you with -- innovation. Next year you


will be finally be able to buy your very own jet pack, going to work on


Monday morning will never be the same again.


A UKIP MEP wrecks his party conference with a gaffe rampage, vigilante paedophile hunters, and the tech guru who says Apple are on their way out.

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