23/09/2013 Newsnight

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They hate him for it. I will be talking to Damian McBride in the

moment. First, here are his thoughts. I came to my first party

conference eight years ago. It was like a raucous wedding weekend.

Hundreds of friends gathered in the same place. A few memorable

speeches, the odd heated argument and far too much alcohol consumed.

Times have changed. In the Blair and Brown years, there was something

else. The battle for the leadership and control of the party. It will

sometimes brutal, and I played my own part in it. What lessons do they

need to learn? Our Ed Miliband and Ed Balls the right people to lead

them in that? They came to work for Labour in the wake of an election

defeat in 1992. Much of the blame was level that John Smith's shadow

budget. It made it too easy for the Tories to define who would lose out

if Labour came to power. But Ed Miliband and Ed Balls know they will

need to give the same level of detail in 2015 if their promises on

tax, spending and the deficit are going to have credibility. So, how

do they avoid the Smith mistake? As veterans of Gordon Brown's budgets,

they know the potential pitfalls. The fine detail could be crucial.

that Ed Balls and others need to learn lessons from previous

elections. I will not be calling an election, let me explain why. That

elections. I will not be calling an terrible day Gordon told us he had

decided to call off the election, it felt like a catastrophic loss of

never, his Premiership never recovered. Miliband and Balls face

the same test as the polls narrow and the economy turns. There is

pressure to change tack on issues like the economy and welfare. The

lesson of October 2007 is when political leaders wobble in the

wind it can do huge damage to their reputation, Miliband and Balls must

hold their nerve. Most of all they need to stay united, it is widely

accepted that the feuding of the Blair-Brown years, in which I

played a large part, was hugely distructive for the Labour

Government. Many think I'm a traitor because I published a book

lifting the lid on that feuding, especially at the party conference.

I think if Labour is going to stop repeegt its past, it needs to

exorsise its demons. Any repeat of the Blair-Brown feud will be fatal

for Labour's election chances, if anything I hope pwhie book will act

as a sobering -- my book will act as a sobering thought. It helped

Miliband and Balls had ring side seats for the Blair Brown hoplts,

and they can -- moments. Crucially they have something that Blair and

Brown lacked, clarity about who is in charge, Balls accepts he's the

junior partner. By the time they get to the next election Balls and

Miliband will have worked for 20 years at the heart of the

Government, they know enough about the past to avoid its mistake, if

anything can do it is them. Damian McBride is here, Ed Balls called

what you did today despicable, what do you think of that adjective? I

agree with him. The extracts that have appeared in the Daily Mail.

You describe those yourself? I describe myself in far worse terms

than anyone has in the conference so far in that book. This is a

confessional is it? It is me saying this is how I behaved, it is not

all of what I did in that job, but that was maybe five attempts and

skullduggery. You made it clear in that piece of tape that you would

like to see Labour return to Government, is that correct? I'm

still a Labour supporter. Can you tell us precisely how it helps the

Labour Party to serialise your memoirs in the Daily Mail on the

eve of conference? It doesn't help, Jeremy. But there is no good time

to publish a book like this. There is a bad time and you have chosen

it deliberately? I was offered a much more lucrative contract to

publish this book in April 2015, I was told whatever I was offered by

anyone else I could double it to publish in April 2015 to do maximum

damage to the Labour Party. I chose not to do it, I wanted to publish a

book at some stage and I thought better to do it now as long as

possible before the general election. How many pieces of silver

did you get for this one? I have been well paid for. Over £100,000?

Yes, and after the publisher and the tax man keep their's I will do

well out of this book. You say Gordon Brown wasn't in on the

intricacies of what you were doing when you were rubbishing the

members of the cabinet and the like. There was some sort of

understanding between the two of you. What did he think you were

doing? I don't think he knew what I was doing most of the time, I

operated in the shadows and in pubs with different journalists and

doing that kind of operation. What Gordon knew he got from me was

media intelligence that was unparalleled and access to

different bits of the media other politicians couldn't reach, and

frankly, he never asked the question how do you pull this off.

He just assumed this was based on my personal relationships with

journalists. Where did he think all the Tories in the newspapers came

from? Which ones? The Tories for example the Tories against, I don't

know John Reid and Charles Clarke, for example? Let's take the Charles

Clarke story, I have admitted in the book I orchestrated a briefing

war and his anti-social behave representative Louise Casey, they

had no idea that I was responsible for that, and Charles Clarke's

advisers would pour their hearts out to me about Louise Casey, if

they weren't knowing that, and they were close, how could Gordon Brown

work out they were coming from the special adviser. Not only was it a

man described by other insiders in Downing Street as psychologically

flawed, he was away with the fairies half the time was he? Not

at all. But he had bigger and better things to be getting on with

than worrying about where a particular story appeared on the

front of the Sunday Times from. It wasn't for Gordon Brown to think,

he didn't understand how I operated, that is the truth of it. I regarded

myself as being responsible for giving him an unparalleled

relationship with Sunday newspapers so that they didn't attack him. Did

Ed Balls and Ed Miliband know what you were up to? Even less than gord

Dan did, they didn't work with me on a day-to-day basis as I did with

gord Dan. I spent half my life going around to journalists with

him, I didn't do that Miliband or Balls. You have described in the

extracts we have seen how the then Prime Minister, Gordon Brown

exploded periodically, did you come to the conclusion he was

psychologically flawed? No, I thought he was a great man. A

piercesome temper? Like a lot of us. He was a hugely tender man, not out

in the extracts today. There was a tenderness and care about him and

concern for his staff that you don't really see in the memoirs,

hopefully people will see from the book I have written. The stuff you

were putting into the newspapers reflects on him doesn't it?

Ultimately it does, because I was employed by him. And...And He

protected you? He knew that in April 2009 when I was doing for

arguably far worse things than I have admitted to in this book, he

was deeply ashamed at that, and deeply ashamed that was done by

somebody in his employment. How do you think politics gets to the

state where people like you are able to do what you did? Because

people don't tell the truth. That is what I have tried to do in this

book. If people aren't honest about how politics really operates you

can't clean it up. The great thing about this week, as much as Labour

people will feel this has been disastrous for them as was said.

Every single member of the Shadow Cabinet has now made a commitment

and vow they will never do anonymous briefing, we never had

that before and didn't have it under the Conservative opposition

or previous Labour Government, hopefully that will be a good thing

and held to that standard. I wasn't trying to produce that effect, but

never the less that is the result. Can politics be done that way

nowadays? It should be. You concluded, inside Number Ten it

couldn't be done like that? But I was wrong. I shouldn't have

operated that way. From my point of view, I was, I don't want to blame

the system, but the longer stayed in that system, the worse my

behaviour became. Are you worried? Deeply. And ashamed. The people you

hurt, would you like to apologise to them? And I do in the book. I do

feel ashamed and sorry to those individuals whose careers I

affected. And even more sow to the sort of, you know, if you -- so, to

the sort of innocent bystanders that got in the by, they lost jobs

because people got shuffled out of Government. People were mentioned

in the context of sleazey stories who did nothing to deis serve to be

there and not members of a political party. I'm sorry for that.

Have you sought abs illusion? Those religious -- Be a sol illusion?

Those religious things are private. I admit the truth and I'm being

honest in the book. I I have friends of mine in the Labour Party

admit to me, if they tried to write a book was not honest about

everything I had done they would destroy my credibility. I took the

view I will take them at their word. You confessed to some things that

may be criminal offences, the misuse of computers act for

example? I'm sure Jeremy because I was always very careful about this

during the years that I wasn't committing any criminal offences. I

go at great lengths to explain how I would not leak classified

documents, you know, and I would take pains. You are not worried

about a police investigation? I'm happy to talk to the police if they

want an explanation. What about a suggestion from another

Conservative MP that you should be denied your Civil Service pension?

I was denied all sorts of things when forced to resign in April 2009

if they want to take my pension that is up to them. You are not

trying to illicit our sympathy? Not at all, I have been well paid for

writing this book, if that's what the Civil Service want to do and

think it is appropriate, that is up to them. I'm not going to sit and

plead. It raises the question whether we can believe a word in

the book? If people read the book they will see I haven't hidden or

taken anything out. I have been honest not only about what I did

and the impact it had on me and my personal life. I don't think many

people read this book and think they are reading someone that is

trying to obscure the truth or be dishonest. Is there anyone here to,

listening to this account of what life was like, at the heart of

power in this country, I mean what does it make you think about

politics? You in the second row, please? I think it is very

indicative of the way society has become and how challenging this

country is now. I don't feel there is a great left in Great Britain

because of the damage done by the last Government. The chap with his

hand up behind you. I feel that what you have done is part of you

said the "system", what Damien has done is part of the system, and I'm

wondering do you not concern yourself with actually causing the

downfall of the Labour Party? I don't think this will happen,

frankly I don't think this will make a single difference to how

people cast their vote for the next election. It might make a few

people look inside now, but I don't think it will make any difference

to the outcome of the next election. So I disagree with you. How you

behaved and what it has done to trust in politics, that must

trouble you, doesn't it? It does, but you know what would be more

damaging than that is to pretend these things don't happen and not

to be honest about that. Whenever you have had these kinds of periods,

to be honest about that. Whenever I compare it to the banking crisis,

when you think about the banking crisis, if all we heard was the

individuals are responsible for those kinds of catastrophic

failures in the banking crisis were swept under the carpet, we would

never clean up the system. You talked in the vt with an altruistic

gesture on your part, not only have you caused damage to the Labour

Party, but also the perception from the public who are really fatigued

and very cynical about politics in general. How do you feel about

that? I would hope when people would read the book as a whole they

would see both that this is a would read the book as a whole they

problem of the system that needs to be fixed so our politics can be

fixed, a bit like the expenses scandal. And when we had the

expenses scandal clearly there were people who were almost mild

offenders, but there were serious offenders, I would regard myself as

one of those in this context. That is the only way to clean up the

system is to get to the bottom of why it happened. Do you still talk

to the people at the top of the Labour Party and do they talk to

you? I haven't for several months precisely because I was writing

this book. When did you last talk to Ed Balls? I bumped him in the

arsenal match, he was meeting Robert Peston they have a closer

relationship. Ed Miliband? I haven't seen him since we bumped

into each other in the park three or four years ago. Your predecessor

Alastair Campbell seems to have come through similar actions and is

now a media darling, perhaps there is a chance for you to redeem

yourself. I'm really curious, if the police decide that you have

committed a criminal offence, will you then just say it was all a pack

of lies again, which would be actually of course more believable

than what you are actually sitting there and saying. No and I wouldn't

be able to, I have been clear in the book about exactly what stories

I was responsible for briefing, if the police wanted to say that story

was a breach of the law then, I would be banged to rights. That's

the honest truth. And then perhaps if you were in prison would you

write the sequel in April 2015? I'm not sure people would be as

interested in that. I think they might be. There is a gentleman over

here with his hand up. Damien if you are truly sorry about the

damage you have done to the Labour Party, how about donating your fee

to the Labour Party to redeem yourself and make amends. Well, the

fact is when I left Government, when I left the Labour Party I left

with nothing. I got no, I'm not saying I should have done, but I

did leave with nothing, I have a lot of debts from that period, the

majority of the money I make from writing that book will pay off

those debts. That is the reality. How do you rate the current spin

operation in the Labour Party, are they as good as you? It depends

what you think I was good at. There is certainly. You obviously thought

you were pretty good at the time? I think I was good at certain things.

There are things that haven't necessarily come out from the Daily

Mail articles, I think people in the Labour Party and the

Conservative Party will read from the book and would say they would

like to have someone doing that kind of job. The 24/7 monitoring of

the media and making shower that bad stories about the Government,

as much as possible didn't appear. Even the stories I talked about

leaking, I did those in positive ways. You know take the Charles

Clarke and Louise Casey stories, they were positive stories about

what the Government would do to tackle anti-social behaviour. Other

stories don't fall into that category? No, but the majority of

things I did over the years were, about positively promoting the

Government and a huge amount of stopping. Would you go back to

politics? I don't think they would have me, quite rightly. One last

question. You had a team that worked with you, you didn't do this

by yourself. And they all kept quiet, so hoi can you justify that

they kept quiet and why didn't they speak? The fact is I didn't have a

team, for the entire period when I was head of communications at the

Treasury I had a large Treasury press office but they weren't

involved in this, they were civil servants. When I was a special

adviser, a press adviser to Gordon Brown I was largely doing that on

my own. You did that all by yourself. Yeah, and you know I

describe exactly how. Thank you very much. I don't suppose they are

missing us much inside the conference hall tonight, it has

been an oddly passionless affair so far, the highlight of which was a

speech from Ed Balls today, the Shadow Chancellor, the Labour

leadership is desperate to establish credibility because the

electorate associates Labour with the meltdown which preceded their

ejection from power. So Ed Balls talked both about investment, and

about continuing cuts. Our political editor, watched it all.

Is this the key for Labour leaders? Not chilllaxing in the dangerously

cream leather sofa, but the whole perspex and plastic structure, the

conservatory test is a test Labour politicians set themselves. Any

politician who doesn't understand the desire to own one of these, so

the argument goes, is unfit to lead the Labour Party. This isn't a

living, breathing conservatory, it is a company that caters for people

who would like conservatories, that is the kind of business that Labour

strategists think the party needs to be in. Right now it is polling

at around 30-35% in a opinion polls. But to be up to that point where it

is really sure of a good grip on Government, it needs to be up above

40%. To get there it needs to reach out to new voters. Probably Middle

England voters, people who Labour strategists like to say in a

England voters, people who Labour shorthand have, or would like to

have a conservatory. It is for that reason that this evening Newsnight

is obsessed with glass houses. Tony Blair is held up as the king

of conservatories, he won three election victories, largely with

this man at his side. Alastair Campbell I said conservatory test,

and you said you like it, why? That is exactly the sort of person that

the Labour Party has to have in mind when thinking about policy.

And there is a real danger when you get to a Labour Party Conference

that people imagine this is the real world, and everybody is

talking about Damien McBride this, and all the small stuff, and for

the public they want to know about them and their lives and their

living standards, and the idea of the Labour Party, one of the things

that I think new Labour and Tony Blair was really good at was

understanding people's basic aspirations. A lot of people have a

basic aspiration to extend their house with a conservatory.

Newsnight asked polling company, YouGov, to survey the attitudes of

those with conservatories and those without. Fewer conservatory owners

believe Labour cares about people like them. That's compared with the

general public. There is more support for the coalition's benefit

general public. There is more cap among conservatory owners than

among the general public, just. All political parties are hoping to win

over the floating voters within that group called "the strivers" or

"hard working families", however you want to characterise it. And

aspiring conservatory owners are one such label for that group. The

Labour Party still has a lot of work to do and a lot of people to

win over, particular low on the issues of immigration and welfare,

-- particularly on the issues of immigration and welfare to win an

election. The MP Foris left-wingen to North, a critic of new Labour,

thinks a conservatory test is a wrong test. People are worried

about health, education, housing, jobs, particularly for young people.

In my constituency I get very few letters or e-mails of concern about

the provision of conservatories. You have actually got four children

sharing one bedroom in a two bedroom flat on the 15th floor, I'm

sure they would love a conservatory. This weekend many policy pot plants

have been brought out by Labour, a pledge to reverse the Bedroom Tax,

a re- requirement on companies that hire a foreign skilled worker to

train an apprentice. The details on this one wilted a little. Next dawn

to dusk daycare, sounded great, but questions about funding lingered.

Today another pledge to help parents pay for childcare. Again it

look good, but it may also be funded by an already earmarked pot

of money. One former aide to Miliband ban believes the

conservatory test needs updating. The insecurity means that people

areage husband is about their prospects, -- anxious about their

prospects, you might think next year I can have two hole day, the

year after that I will build a con- - holidays, the next year after I

will build a conservatory. And now it is I don't know if I will have a

job or afford the fees for university. That is affecting as

much Middle England? People are genuinely struggling in work. You

don't have to be in a council house, relying on social security to be

struggling right now. Middle England may be feeling the chill of

economic insecurity, but at Labour Party Conference today few thought

the conservatory principle should be completely demolished, just a

little renovation perhaps, nothing drastic. Of course keep the cream

leather sofa. Now the number two in drastic. Of course keep the cream

the Labour Treasury team, Rachel Reeves is here, have you got a

conservatory? I was thinking you might ask me that, I don't have one.

Do you aspire to have one? I don't think it would work on the house I

live in. But many of my friends have conservatories. How is it that

a party can be both the party of conservatory-owners and the party

that wants to abolish the bedroom tax, as you call it? Well, what

we're talking about this week at conference is the cost of living

cry is, that is affecting a huge range of families from those on the

minimum wage struggling, perhaps with the Bedroom Tax, up to

families on middle incomes who are feeling insecure right now, who is

perhaps a mum who wants to go back to work but doesn't think it adds

up because of childcare. A range of things to help with the cost of

living. Not just to help those at bottom but up the distribution. You

mentioned childcare there, there is to be greater, if you get into

office, there will be greater childcare providers. Two things,

three and four-year-olds where parents are in work will get 25

hours of free childcare, and wrap around childcare at school from 8-6

to help those who have to go out to work. Paid for by what? For the

three and four-year-olds we will increase the bank levy. The

Government introduced a bank levy to raise £2.5 million but it has

raised £800 million less than that. The increase in the bank levy have

been promised to the youth jobs guarantee? No that is being paid

for by the bank bonus tax. That is something Alastair Darling

introduced. What about the VAT increase, has it been promised for

that? We are not saying we will reduce VAT at the next election, we

have said we will provide the childcare. Our misunderstanding,

despite someone speaking for your party said so? What we will say on

VAT, over the last three years when the economy is flatlining, we

thought during that period of time to cut VAT would stimulate the

recovery and create jobs and growth. Now as we are hopefully moving into

recovery mode, VAT cut isn't the right thing to do. There are 1

things for which the increase in the bank levy? I have just said

what it will be used for, that is to pay for the childcare for three

and four-year-olds. If you had £50 billion to spend, what would you

spend it on? You are asking about HS2 and the north-south rail link.

That is one thing it could be spent on? We're in favour, my

constituency is in Leeds, the party are in favour of a new north-south

rail link, but we're not going to give a blank cheque to it. You

can't think of a better way of spending £50 billion than building

a railway to leads? That would go to Birmingham and Leeds and

Manchester and Nottingham and derby -- Derby, could really revitalise

areas and bring growth and jobs. You can't decide perhaps what might

be as good? The thing about infrastructure is it can realise

benefits over a number of years. We won't give a blank cheque to HS2

other any other infrastructure investment. When money is tight,

you have got to say that every pound has to be well spent. And you

have also got to say that no project can see its cost rise and

rise and rees, and the Government say it is fine. -- and rise. And

the Government say it is fine. They are not doing it in all other areas,

there is taxes and increase and prices going up. What would you

spend £50 billion on? There are lots of things. Better than a

railway? We have made the commitment to high-speed rail, but

if the costs go up we have to look at it again. It won't have a blank

cheque, we can't just see the costs spiral and underwrite a project at

any cost. That is not right. If the costs rise we will have to look

again at it. Let me ask you about Ed Miliband, why is it that he

doesn't look like a Prime Minister? That's your judgment. I think that

Ed Miliband will make...It Is a judgment of the polling evidence?

Ed Miliband will make a great Prime Minister because he uns the

challenges that ordinary families are facing with the cost of living

crisis. Ed of talking about issues like the squeezed middle, taking on

vested interests and the banks and Rupert Murdoch before other

politicians were brave enough to say that. This is not a statistic

kal representative sample here, people here, d statistical

representive sample here, some have conservatories and some don't, they

are fine citizens. Does Ed Miliband strike you as a Prime Minister, can

are fine citizens. Does Ed Miliband you imagine him in Downing Street?

I can. Two people can? Two of you can? What is it about him? I think

he's a man of virttu, he believes what he's saying -- virtue, he

believes what he's saying. I think he's genuine and speaks from the

heart, that is why I like him. Who can't imagine Ed Miliband in doubt?

You Can think of him as a devisive person, he's not a unifyer, you

need that in the top position. He's a well-meaning man isn't he? He may

well be that. But he's still not a, unifier. One remembers his

background with all the viciousness we have heard earlier on in the

meeting. About you how he got the job as leader? And during the

course of his career in politics. I think he's a possible future leader

because he's growing into the part. He is slowly trying to reach out

and he's trying to put a balance together by bringing in different

players together from the old progressive Labour to the Labour

that we have today. I think he has started reaching out, Emily Benn

has been moved down, we have a younger generation moving in and

that is a good move. When you hear someone like Rachel, I'm not being

personal here, do you feel politicians are talking to ordinary

people as ordinary people need to be spoken to? I think there has

been since Mrs Thatcher where she said there is no sense of community

any more. And the rupture of the social bond between politicians and

ordinary people. In the second row here? I think in terms of being

out-of-touch I think the sort of, the definition of Middle England

isn't around aspirations around to the definition of Middle England

have a conservatory or whether they have one or not. There is there is

plenty of Middle England people who want to get on the property ladder,

full stop. Because Labour was prosperous people are paying the

price now. Aspiration has shifted and people's aspirations are to

have enough disposable income for enjoyable things like holidays,

with £50 billion affordable housing would be good. You haveen gauged

her interest now you are not talking about HS2? It is a really

important point made there. It is also about spending time with your

family, people want to earn to be able to go on holiday or build a

conservatory or get on the housing ladder. They want to earn enough to

get to spend time with their families and not take two jobs. I

know so many people who are now working one job during the day but

have to take another job during the working one job during the day but

evening, because prices are working one job during the day but

and the waging aren't keeping pace. It is things like that, you know,

it sound base you can but for a lot of people that is the basic

aspiration to earn enough to do the things perhaps in the past people

have taken for granted. That is really worrying. And politicians

need to wake up to some of that. We have to join our diplomatic editor

who has been watching event in Kenya today.

The siege in Nairobi is now over. Or so the Kenyan Government said,

just before we came on air. The official death toll now stand

at 62 with six Britains among them. Britains among them. The seize of

the Westgate Mall created terror and international crisis, shoppers

were cut down by Al-Shabab militants, estimated up to be 15.

Some of the dead lay where they fell for hours. Compounding the

confusion about how many had been killed or were still being held

hostage. This morning columns of black smoke emerged, and there was

frequent gunfire as Kenyan troops started clearing the building. From

this satellite view you can see where that last shot was taken from,

pretty much from this angle, the car park here is behind the

building and the smoke was coming from behind the mall. Probably

produced by vehicles burning in that war park behind. Armed police

had tried to fight their way in yesterday, from the ground floor,

but fell back without success. Today, attacks were launched from

the top floor as well by the Kenyan army's Ranger Strike Force. This

special unit has been trained and supplied by the Americans. These

images show them arriving yesterday. In give away Humvees with special

rifles, they were involved in In give away Humvees with special

yesterday as aborted attempt to storm the ground floor. The wider

area of them all of secured, meanwhile, by the police, general

service unit, putting in a cordon around there, but that was only

partially successful, with many bystanders getting close to the

scene. Throughout the day the slow process of clearing the mall shop-

by-shop continued, with the Kenyan authorities announcing they had

killed two Al-Shabab gunmen and the army taking casualties. We have

really covered the building. We have taken control of the whole

building, and there are no indications that there are still

any hostages. We are still, however, very careful just in the event that

there is any that rerescue them. But going by the process of search

-- we res view them. But going by the process -- rescue them, by

going by the process and looking at the building it is unlikely there

are more hostages. The authorities were claiming to be in control of

the mall but many questions remain, not least whether all of the gunmen

who took the place were eliminated or some descape. The Government in

Nairobi says all of the hostages have now been accounted for. We

have been hearing many powerful stories over the past few days from

those inside the mall. Kamal Kaur, a mother of two injured children

was hosting a cookery competition when the shooting occurred, she

describes how sh she tried to protect over 30 -- she tried to

protect over 30 children she had with them? The animals were worse,

they were climbing on top of the, the adults, were trying to climb

over them, they were stepping on the children. I think somebody

carried my daughter out, she couldn't work she was hurt pretty

badly on her leg. She couldn't work, a Samaritan picked her up and ran

off to her. I said a prayer to look after her, and then...(cries) ...we

pushed the kids away, we ran towards each other, we heard more

firing, we thought they were back to fire at us, but it was the guys

who had come in and they were protecting us and firing to keep

them away. Harrowing stories there, Richard

Watson is with us now. Do you think this is the shape of things to come

in terms of Al-Shabab exporting this kind of violence from Somalia?

Looking beyond the awful attacks of the last cop of days, this attack

is de-- couple of days the attack shows that Al-Shabab are a force to

be reckoned with. They have had African Union troops take away

security over the years, and internal splits about whether it

should focus on Somalia or have a Jihad link to Al-Qaeda. One

question is whether it is about Somalia or Al-Qaeda. Today I spoke

to someone who claimed to be a commander in the field in Somalia.

This is what he had to say? Reports about possible UK or US

nationals being among those who went into the mall. What is your

assessment of that? There is no confirmation but it is very

possible. My understanding is that 50 British nationals have joined

the ranks of Al-Shabab in recent years, it is entirely possible,

there is no confirmation on this point at the moment. What is most

worrying for western security agencies is that the ideology of

Al-Qaeda is proving appealing for a tiny minority. This idea that laem

is -- Islam is at war with the west, and there is an Islamic duty to

create an Islamic state. It is worrying that some young men appear

to go going to Somalia and I think 100 people have gone to Syria to

fight. They go there to and they will eventually probably come back

with British passports. What has happened to them then? I asked the

Al-Shabab commander on the ground about British support?

Shabab's presence in East Africa, it is about soft targets in Europe

and the battle of ideas. Now back it is about soft targets in Europe

to Jeremy in the Newsnight conservatory.

In this rather cold conservatory now we are joined to discuss the

issues of the Labour conference and now we are joined to discuss the

how Ed Miliband is doing by Steve Richards author of The Brown Years,

and Jenny Russell, who writes for the Times and the Standard. What is

Ed Miliband's problem? I think his problem is that in opposition you

need to be a political artist, above all. That opposition is about

pretending almost to seize the agenda, always appear to be on the

offensive, to be mighty and powerful, even though you have no

power at all. And he's not brilliant at artistry, but to give

you one example of the problem that this gives, and almost a conundrum.

He's the most experienced leader of the opposition, for four decades, I

tell you why, the last leader of an opposition to win an election with

cabinet experience is 1979 and Margaret Thatcher. He has been in

the cabinet and the Treasury, yet people say he's so inexperienced

and he's not ready for power. I don't think Jenny agrees with you?

That is a fact! I agree with that, I think Ed is principled and

thoughtful and analytical, he's no good at conveying the ideas to

interviewers like you on air. He's not yet comfortable on skin, he

interviewers like you on air. He's gives the impression he has come on

air with preprepared phrases that he will stick to no matter what

questions he's asked. It is seems then as if he and other Labour

politicians haven't created a political landscape over which they

can range in comfort. Too often you listen and watch. It is as if they

are on a Little Rock on the sea and terrified of stepping off in case

they go in. That is fatal in the contemporary political Scotland

scape. Jo You reinforced my idea about artistry, interviewing with

people like yourself is part of about artistry, interviewing with

this. I think two things, first of all they will not be caught out as

the Conservatives hope on areas of tax and spend. Because they look so

young people forget, Ed Balls and Ed Miliband have fought four

elections avoiding the tax and spend traps. They won't fall into

them this time. That is not the issue, the issue is how they come

across. The Tories hope to win an election based on the spending

campaign. Do you think they are coherent on policies? They are

working out policies very slowly, and those are the prerequisites,

you will not get elected unless your policies look coherent. Labour

comes forward and suggests something that is very important,

like the squeezed middle or the need for responsible capitalism or

the need for a pause on Syria. Having made these statements it

retreats from them, there is a vacuum, you get the impression they

have thought up this part of the policy and the rest isn't woarked

out. When you posed the question are they coherent in policy. It is

difficult in opposition to go into policy detail. For a year now all

of us three in our different ways have been saying where are your

policies, they announce sum and us three say, qu how are you going to

pay for them? The moment you get into that you fall into all kinds

of difficulty, it is incredibly difficult to translate concepts

into detailed policy. That is common sense, if your son or

daughter said to you I want to buy a motorbike, you would say how are

you going to pay for it? That is absolutely right. Every now and

then you say I'm not selling a motorbike because it gets into that

difficulty. The problem any opposition has, and David Cameron

had it trying to translate big society into detailed policy is how

in advance, before you have, if you like broken through the electorate

and gotten into power, you use policy to develop an argument. And

it is very, very difficult, I completely agree with Jenny that is

the essence of what they have to do. Where I disagree is you imply it is

pretty easy and it is not. It is fundamentally, you have to work out

the policies and be able to talk easily fluently and confidently

about it. It is something that David Cameron does, Nigel Farage

can do and Margaret Hodge. We are all sophisticated media consumers,

we can take instantly if they are evasive or know what they are doing.

That is what the two Labour politicians can't do. One thing a

problem for this them. For the past two years the country has wanted to

know an austerity alternative. Just as they are coming up the idea it

looks a if the economy is proving and people may stop listening to

them. That's it from the Newsnight

conservatory on the south coast, miraculously it is still in one

piece. Has Labour passed the conservatory test. We will find out

in 18 months. We are back to our usual potting shed tomorrow night.

If you hadn't had enough from Brighton today, conference is

coming up, In Conference is coming up after this. It was announced

that production of the Volkswagen up after this. It was announced

camper vab will end for good at the end of the year. There have been

ten million made since the first one appeared in 1950. Now new

safety laws in Brazil still, the only country still manufacturing

the van have prompted Volkswagen to announce a final run of 600, they

will be the last ever made. Goodnight.

M # Peace and love # Riding around

# In a Volkswagen van # Thinking about the people upside

down in Japan # Staring at the stars

# And in a distant kal galaxy, wondering if there is someone out