03/10/2013 Newsnight


03/10/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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Tonight, we examine the fall-out from the leak of thousands of top

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secret documents by Edward Snowden. Was it an act of vandalism against

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our national security? Not even the KGB in its day of fill bee and

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Burgess and Maclean could have dreamt of acquiring 58,000 highly

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classified intelligence documents. We have an exclusive interview with

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the journalist responsible for releasing the information leaked by

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Edward Snowden and we discuss the consequences. I may be freezing to

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death but you will never get rid of me. All the ice in the world cannot

:00:50.:00:57.

kill a true idea. Back on dry land, the thinker that some call an

:00:57.:01:02.

intellectual rock star, but other a left fascist, talks about his new

:01:02.:01:11.

film. The composer whose music has launched more than 100 films. It's

:01:11.:01:17.

all because I love doing it. I get excited. When somebody comes to show

:01:17.:01:22.

you some images and they've got an idea and they are excited.

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Good evening. For years we worried that the likes of Google Microsoft

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and Facebook knew too much. But when the American intelligence contractor

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Edward Snowden revealed a list of secret programmes the US and British

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intelligence services have been working on, it seemed the State had

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amassed a capability beyond everything. Intercepting and storing

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vast amounts of everyday traffic. The power and scale surprised many,

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concerned about the level of intrusion it represented, but should

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we be worried, given the amount of data generated on-line, is it any

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wonder they require the most powerful systems to find the pieces

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of information that might prevent a terrorist attack say? How much

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gathering are we prepared to accept? Piece by piece over the last few

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months we have got glimpses of something that was previously

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hidden. Top-secret documents leaked by former American intelligence

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analyst, Edward Snowden have revealed a huge web of intelligence

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gathering run by Britain's GCHQ and America's NSA. Even if you are not

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doing anything wrong, you are being watched and recorded. This is the

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truth and what is happening. You should decide whether we need to do

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this. You have a powerful capability to find a small amount that you are

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looking for, but it doesn't mean that the State is reading everyone's

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e-mails. The NSA's actions have more than undermined internet security.

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They've threaten to break it. In the same way that technology has

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transformed our daily lives, it's revolutionised the world of

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intelligence. The way in which modern communications flow is

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dizzyingly complex. I might send an e-mail from my phone using Microsoft

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or Google. The data will be broken up into tiny packets that might

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travel along an international fibre up into tiny packets that might

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optic cable. The message might also be encrypted by a company's

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software, designed to make sure no-one can read it until it reaches

:03:58.:04:02.

the person to whom it's addressed. What we have learnt from the Edward

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the person to whom it's addressed. Snowden revelations is that

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America's SNA and Britain's GCHQ are developing the capability to target

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communications at every point along the route. The NSA has a programmed

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communications at every point along called Prism which allows had to get

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hold of data from software companies like Microsoft and Google. GCHQ is

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tapping the international fibre optic cables through which vast

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amount of data and individual mess aBgs pass and the two intelligence

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agencies are working to crack the secret codes so they can read

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messages, which other people thought were secret. They also hoover up a

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huge amount of information about communications, so-called meta-data

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to go through and analyse looking for patterns and connections. The

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overall ambition is enormous - to be able to reach into the global stream

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of digital communication and pluck out a single message and then read

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it. So with so much of our lives on-line leaving a digital trail

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behind has the State without anyone knowing become Big Brother? I had a

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family and a home in paradise. That is what he believed. He's now in

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hiding in Russia. A hero to some, a villain to others. How you see him

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depends on how surprised and outraged you are by what he's

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revealed. Thanks to him, the Guardian has got hold of a massive

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trove of top-secret documents from the NSA, as well as 58,000 from

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Britain's GCHQ. So far, it's published just a few pieces. In the

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last week, I've been Griffin direct access to a small selection of

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original documents held outside the UK. These form the basis of some of

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the stories the Guardiola has already published. -- the guardian

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has already published. The capabilities they reveal and secrets

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they contain, make real the national security and public interest

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argument. Those who have worked inside the secret state though say

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that this power is vital for national security and is used only

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for national security. What the State needs and law enforcement

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needs is the possibility of accessing the communications of the

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terrorists, the criminals, the kidnappers and the proliferators,

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the paedophiles, but those communications are all mixed up with

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everyone else's communications. There are 204 million e-mails a

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minute buzzing around the globe. You have to have a powerful capability

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to find the small amount that you are looking for. It doesn't mean

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that the State is reading everyone's e-mails, nor would that conceivably

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be feasible. You say the State isn't reading everyone's e-mails, but

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people might fear they could be reading my e-mails? Would you really

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support a world in which it was possible for -- was not possible for

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the police and agencies to find the communications of the terrorists and

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the proliferators and the kidnappers and criminals? But can we trust the

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State? Technology allows it to do things it could never have done

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before. Collecting and going through billions of records to find a

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connection, or reconstructing a person's social interactions. The

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programmes are innovative and highly complex. While there is a system of

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oversight and accountability, every search has to be justified under the

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human rights acts, critics feel it's not strong enough. The controls at

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the moment frankly are far too small. They couldn't conceivably

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check all the sorts of the sort that Snowdon is talking about. It's not

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possible. Something which is justified in terms of national

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possible. Something which is security is expanded into all of our

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privacies? Yes, or the scope to do so, yes and the relatively

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unfettered scope to do so. Everyone will say we're responsible people. I

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know some of them, the people involved in this and they are

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decent, civilised people, but the State simply shouldn't have these

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powers. One day they will get used wrongly and by then it's too late.

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As well as processing vast amounts wrongly and by then it's too late.

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of data, the Snowden files point to the agencies deliberately

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undermining some of the security protocols on the internet. Like the

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process of encryption, with the goal of making it easier for them to gain

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access to data. For us, the revelations in early September that

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the NSA had had a major covert programme to compromise its security

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standards and products were a 9/11 moment. Some leading computer

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security experts have been left outraged. They've spent decades

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trying to make sure people can communicate securely and privately

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over the internet. The goal of the NSA and GCHQ is ensure this is not

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the case. That they can break anybody's privacy at any time and

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interfere with a transaction at any time. In order to do this they have

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compromised in various ways many of the protocols on which the internet

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relies. Now, when you introduce these vulnerabilities, they are not

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just available from the spies, but available for bad guys to use too.

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The files confirm the scale of what has been built, but they also

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contain page after page of top-secret information. For

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instance, GCHQ's work in supporting military operations overseas, so by

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making this material vulnerable to those who want to know Britain's

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secrets and in disclosing certain aspects of it, have Edward Snowden's

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actions compromised national security? Not even the KGB in its

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height of fill bee and Burgess and Maclean in the 1950s could have

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dreamt of acquiring 58,000 highly classified intelligence documents.

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My fear is that we are now going to witness a slow-motion car crash. In

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which gradually sources dry up, targets such as terrorists and cyber

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criminals will work out what are the kind of capabilities that we have

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and they will attempt their methods and it will be harder to track them

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down. The State has amassed enormous powers when it comes to interception

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and it's done so in secret. That concerns many, who believe there

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needs to be more public knowledge about the State's capability and

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more consent to its use of those powers. Secrecy is the antagonist of

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accountability and always is. Sometimes you can't go around it.

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You've got to have secret agencies and spies and you've got to have

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ways of dealing with the enemies. Nobody disputes that. But you also

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have to have in a free society a way of keeping it under control and

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making sure it doesn't runaway. They pushed it even further than we

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thought they would. The surprising thing to us was that there are

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occasional pockets of come p combatants win the two. Many of us

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had thought that the real secret like other large pub sector IT

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had thought that the real secret projects it didn't work and there

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was really nobody there. But to find they've built this machine and got

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was really nobody there. But to find it working is an eye opener. The

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balance between secrecy and accountability is being shifted as a

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direct result of Snowdon's disclosures. A senior US

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intelligence official acknowledged there would now have to be more

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transparency about the NSA's work. But as the public understands more

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about the powerful machine that has been built in secret, how far will

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it be confident that it's been used to keep us safe rather than to spy

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on us? Glenn Greenwald is the journalist responsible for releasing

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the information leaked by Edward Snowden and he joins us from Rio.

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Good evening. Firstly, why should you be the ash for of about what is

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in the public interest and what is vital to national security? I'm not

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the ash for of that. I work with a huge number of Guardian editors and

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some of the most experienced national security journalists in the

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world. And journalism, which is designed to serve as a check on

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those in power is about shining light on what the people in power

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are doing, that they try to hide from the public and those are the

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judgments that all journalism requires every single day. 58,000

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British documents we know. At least as many presumably from the NSA. You

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heard perhaps Sir David there saying you are not even Philby, Burgess and

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Maclean and this is a car crash coming. Well, this idea that there

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Maclean and this is a car crash is 58,000 documents just because the

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UK Government said it, I would hope we have learned after the Iraq war

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that Government claims are not tantamount to the truth, but I think

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the broader point is that it isn't how many documents the Guardian or

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other newspapers around the world possess, but the question is what is

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it that they are viewing with those documents and in every single

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article we publish, we have gone over every single line of every

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single document and not one line, not one comma of what we published

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could even possibly be said to damage national security. It's all

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about informing people if democracies about what their

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governments are doing. You have shown where there are

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connections. Those connections are used to track terrorists.

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Terrorists, would-be terrorists, change their tactics. It is possible

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Terrorists, would-be terrorists, that by your actions you make it

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easier for terrorists to understand how to evade the checks that are

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made on them online. That is completely ludicrous. First, the

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premise of your question is false. We have shown much more than just a

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collection of meta data. We have shown all sorts of invasions into

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the content of communications between innocent people, having

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conversations online through e-mail, online chat, collecting

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their browsing history. The idea that terrorists did not know that

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the United States and UK governments were trying to monitor their

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communications is laughable. Every terrorist is capable of tying their

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own issues, and have long known that governments are trying to monitor

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their communications. The only thing we have informed people of is that

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the spying system is aimed at them. How can you be sure that your

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actions have not made it easier for terrorists to operate? You cannot be

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sure of that. You cannot prove a negative of that, can you? I do not

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why you are asking me to prove a negative, if it cannot be proven. A

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way that human beings reason and journalists make decisions is that

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you weigh the competing evidence as rationally as you can. We know the

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evidence we are disclosing to the world is not about spying on

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terrorists that they do not know about, but spying on innocent human

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beings. I would like to find a human being who says, I would rather

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remain ignorant about what my government is doing in a democracy.

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That is not how healthy democracy functions. Do you think it would be

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a shock that spies actually do spy? Or do you think the majority of the

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population might find it reassuring, they might feel quite safe? I think

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it is a shock that government officials lied to the face of

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journalists, who do not seem to mind much. For example, in that segment

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you played, you had people defending GCHQ on the grounds that this is

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only about terrorism and paedophiles. But much of the

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reporting we have done proves that is a lie. We reported that GCHQ and

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NSA are spying on a large Brazilian oil company that funds social

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programmes in Brazil. Are there terrorists in that? They are spying

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on the organisation of American States when they are negotiating

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economic agreements. Are they paedophiles? The job of journalists

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is to present -- prevent those in power from lying to the people over

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whom they are ruling. While some of this may be devoted to terrorists is

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comic huge amounts are devoted to innocent people whose privacy is

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being eroded. I gather you have vast amounts of material that has not

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been revealed. Is it in your bedroom in Rio? I am not going to talk about

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what is in my bedroom, or about the security measures. It is possible

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that presumably you have... Let me... People want to know, I

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suppose, how can you guarantee that the material you have, you can keep

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it safe? Could it possibly be on a memory stick in your pocket? People

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want to know how you think you can keep things safe? I will be happy to

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answer that. That is what I was about to tell you when you

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interrupted. There is only one group of people who have lost control of

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huge amounts of what they claim are important documents. Those are GCHQ

:18:13.:18:19.

and the NSA. The GCHQ took documents they claim are so very sensitive and

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put them on a system at the NSA that tens of thousands of people have

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access to. At the Guardian, we have protected our data with extremely

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advanced methods of encryption. And our documents have remained

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completely secure. We have not lost control of any of our material. That

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remains entirely secure. The reason I asked is that when your partner

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and, I suppose, collaborator, David Miranda, was apprehended, in the

:18:47.:18:50.

evidence it said that actually he was carrying around password

:18:50.:18:55.

material, written on a piece of paper, beside encrypted files. To a

:18:56.:19:01.

lot of people, that is worrying about how careful you are about

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security. I guess I need to give you the reminder that, as a journalist,

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you should be aware that simply because the government makes a

:19:11.:19:13.

claim, especially when they are making that claim in the middle of a

:19:13.:19:17.

lawsuit while they are being sued for violating the law, one should

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not assume that claim is factually true. So you are denying it? It was

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a lie. The idea that he was carrying a password that allow people access

:19:31.:19:34.

to those documents is absolutely false. The only ones who have lost

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control of the documents through horrific operational security is the

:19:39.:19:43.

GCHQ and NSA. He did not have the password. I will show you the proof

:19:43.:19:47.

of that. The affidavit that they filed said, we have to keep this

:19:47.:19:51.

material because it is heavily encrypted and we have only been able

:19:51.:19:56.

to reconstruct 75 documents. They filed an affidavit proving that what

:19:56.:19:58.

they have convinced you of is actually a lie. After what happened

:19:58.:20:04.

to David Miranda, as his partner, that must have been very distressing

:20:04.:20:08.

for you, you then said, I will be far more aggressive in my reporting

:20:08.:20:12.

from now on. I will publish many more documents. I will publish

:20:12.:20:16.

things on England, too. I have documents on England's spy system. I

:20:16.:20:20.

think they will be sorry for what they did. Is there something coming

:20:21.:20:24.

down the pipeline? That is a number months ago now. Actually, I think it

:20:24.:20:32.

was four weeks ago. Since then, there has been a report about GCHQ

:20:32.:20:36.

spying on a Brazilian company, which caused a major diplomatic scandal,

:20:36.:20:43.

with Brazil. That interview that you reference is in Portuguese and the

:20:43.:20:46.

translation you are reading from is very poor. I was asked, how do you

:20:46.:20:50.

think the British government's behaviour, toward the Guardian and

:20:50.:20:54.

your partner, will be viewed? I said, it will be looked at in most

:20:54.:20:58.

democracies, where press freedoms are protected, unlike the UK, as a

:20:58.:21:02.

thuggish form of behaviour and an attack on journalism that will make

:21:02.:21:06.

them look ad. I think it is contrary to their interest and they will come

:21:06.:21:10.

to regret it. -- it will make them look bad. But we will continue

:21:10.:21:14.

aggressively reporting about the GCHQ and the NA -- NSA. However

:21:14.:21:21.

inappropriate the translation, do you see that it was seen very much

:21:21.:21:25.

as you acting as a campaigner and act to Vista? You talked about

:21:25.:21:28.

revenge journalism being the wrong way to describe it, but you can see

:21:28.:21:33.

how people think that. -- as an activist. My view of journalism is

:21:33.:21:40.

that the more people in power abuse that power, the more accountability

:21:40.:21:43.

and transparency they prove they need through journalism. When I see

:21:43.:21:46.

a government like the UK barging need through journalism. When I see

:21:46.:21:49.

into the newsroom of the newspaper with which I work and is demanding

:21:49.:21:52.

they destroy their computers, something you would expect to hear

:21:52.:21:56.

in Iran and Russia and China, or when they detain someone they think

:21:57.:22:01.

is working with a journalist under terrorism law for nine hours and

:22:01.:22:04.

that knowledge through the media that they are doing it to be

:22:04.:22:07.

intimidating, that is a government attack on press freedom, abusing

:22:07.:22:10.

their power and showing they need more transparency, and that is the

:22:10.:22:15.

role of journalism. Do you fear for your safety? No, I don't. That is

:22:15.:22:23.

not something I focus on. The Brazilian government has provided

:22:23.:22:27.

security and Diane perfectly content with the situation. Lots of

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journalists are in difficult positions all the time. -- I am

:22:29.:22:36.

perfectly content. Do you feel you could travel to the United States,

:22:36.:22:39.

and do you feel comfortable about travelling to Britain? Well, I am

:22:39.:22:46.

going to return to the United States as soon as it makes sense to do so.

:22:46.:22:51.

Unlike the UK, there is a constitutional guarantee of a free

:22:51.:22:57.

press. Even former Obama Justice officials have said it is on think

:22:57.:23:00.

above that the administration would prosecute the journalist in this

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case. The UK is a different story because that government has proven

:23:03.:23:07.

that they are willing to run roughshod over press freedoms. They

:23:07.:23:11.

are threatening criminal investigations, detaining my partner

:23:11.:23:15.

under terrorism law, forcing the Guardian to destroy laptops. So I am

:23:15.:23:18.

more cautious about travelling to the UK, although not being able to

:23:18.:23:23.

visit the UK is not something I regard as particularly great

:23:23.:23:28.

punishment. Are you still in touch with Edward Snowden? Sure. He is my

:23:28.:23:34.

source, somebody I care about and I speak with him regularly. And how do

:23:34.:23:39.

you know how he is being treated, and how do you know, more

:23:39.:23:42.

importantly, whether he has not had to give up secrets, if he is under

:23:42.:23:48.

Russian protection? Because, unlike the UK and US governments, his

:23:48.:23:52.

statements have proven completely true in every instance. I have never

:23:52.:23:56.

once seen him lie to me about anything. I know that he has

:23:56.:24:00.

protected the data that he has with extreme levels of encryption that

:24:00.:24:04.

not even the NSA, let alone the lesser Russian intelligence

:24:04.:24:08.

agencies, can crack. And he did not unravel his life to fight

:24:08.:24:11.

surveillance in order to go to the Russians and help them serve ale.

:24:11.:24:16.

But he has been through China, and Hong Kong, and you cannot be sure

:24:16.:24:19.

that he has not had to give up something. You pointed out very

:24:19.:24:26.

astutely a few minutes ago that nobody can prove a negative will

:24:26.:24:30.

stop if you are looking to prove mathematically that they do not have

:24:30.:24:33.

any data, I cannot do that. I can tell you that all of the evidence

:24:33.:24:36.

that we actually know makes it ludicrous to think that they have

:24:36.:24:41.

obtained any of that data. There is zero evidence that they have, and

:24:41.:24:44.

any responsible journalist would refrain from suggesting that

:24:44.:24:46.

happened when they have no evidence that it did. I wonder, with Edward

:24:46.:24:54.

Snowden, whether or not his position in Russia, if he tried to travel,

:24:55.:24:59.

look what the Americans did to the presidential plane, the Bolivian

:24:59.:25:02.

presidential plane over European territory. Does he feel safe? The

:25:02.:25:06.

Russians only said they would keep him for a year. Remember, he did not

:25:06.:25:12.

choose to be in Russia. He was trying to pass through, and the US

:25:12.:25:15.

government basically forced him to be there by revoking his passport

:25:16.:25:20.

and preventing other companies -- countries from letting him transit

:25:20.:25:24.

through. Given the alternative, a super max prison in the United

:25:24.:25:27.

States where he disappears for the next 40 years, I think he is content

:25:27.:25:33.

to be where he is. In some ways, these are elements from a spy film.

:25:33.:25:37.

When you first met, how did you identify him? Right, I had no idea

:25:37.:25:43.

how old he was, who he was, what he looked like. The plan was, he asked

:25:43.:25:46.

us to go to a part of the hotel he looked like. The plan was, he asked

:25:46.:25:52.

was staying in at a designated time and he said we would know him

:25:52.:25:55.

because he was carrying a Rubik 's cube. We went at the designated time

:25:55.:26:00.

and he was not there. We went at the second time he gave, and he showed

:26:00.:26:03.

up a couple of minutes later carrying a Rubik 's cube. Finally, I

:26:03.:26:07.

up a couple of minutes later want to ask you, because we have

:26:07.:26:11.

gone from that kind of extraordinary spy film thing to the idea that he

:26:11.:26:15.

actually might end up in an American super max prison. Do you think he

:26:15.:26:18.

might ultimately end up in an American prison? When we were in

:26:18.:26:24.

Hong Kong, he had assumed, we were all assuming that would be the

:26:24.:26:28.

likely outcome of the brave choice that he had made, which is what made

:26:28.:26:30.

likely outcome of the brave choice it so brave. Now, it is more

:26:30.:26:34.

difficult because his reporting is considered heroic by huge numbers

:26:34.:26:38.

around the world, which has made it more difficult for the US government

:26:38.:26:41.

to get their hands on him and disappear him and make it so that he

:26:41.:26:45.

has never heard from again. Let's discuss further now with

:26:45.:26:48.

Baroness Neville-Jones, former chair of the Joint Intelligence Committee,

:26:48.:26:51.

and Anthony Barnett, the founder of Open Democracy.

:26:51.:26:58.

Should we not have been told about all of this anyway? I think the

:26:58.:27:04.

government does have to have powers to protect us. Extraordinary things

:27:04.:27:10.

that were being said by Glenn Greenwald. In particular, the most

:27:10.:27:14.

astounding thing, which I simply do not credit that he believes, that

:27:14.:27:18.

the Russians and Chinese are not in full possession now of both

:27:19.:27:23.

techniques and information. So you actually believe... Wider you

:27:23.:27:31.

believe that to be the case? He has absolutely no defences against

:27:31.:27:33.

them. They will have taken possession of his computers and gone

:27:34.:27:37.

into them. I do not think there is any doubt at all that they now have

:27:37.:27:41.

a great deal of information which is damaging to our security, and which

:27:41.:27:49.

is the result of betrayal on the part of a trusted employee. Did you

:27:49.:27:55.

is the result of betrayal on the know all this was going on? The

:27:55.:28:00.

world has changed with the internet. We talk about, people who are

:28:00.:28:04.

worried about this, talk about this explosion in surveillance. It is a

:28:04.:28:08.

function of the massive increase in the transmission of communications.

:28:08.:28:15.

So you knew it was happening? Interception has always taken place.

:28:15.:28:18.

You can intercept the mail, telephone calls. Do people believe

:28:18.:28:22.

that is happening? No. Why should they think that in a situation where

:28:22.:28:25.

you have enormous expansion of communications, which requires, for

:28:25.:28:30.

purposes of protection, to have comparable powers of collection, in

:28:30.:28:36.

order to intercept and find the tiny bits that matter, that all the rest

:28:36.:28:41.

of it is being read. It is not. It is only there to catch the few. It

:28:42.:28:48.

is not about tiny bits. I spent a political lifetime telling people,

:28:48.:28:51.

mainly on the left, not to be paranoid. Thatcher was not

:28:51.:28:55.

introducing fascism, Tony Blair was not creating dictatorship. We now

:28:55.:28:57.

introducing fascism, Tony Blair was face the greatest threat to our

:28:57.:29:00.

liberties since the Second World War. Because of the amount of

:29:00.:29:08.

material that is being collected. Because these databases, which are

:29:08.:29:10.

not about tiny items of Because these databases, which are

:29:10.:29:14.

information, will be used, and not just by governments. Snowden was

:29:14.:29:17.

working for a corporation. They will be accessed by others in

:29:18.:29:22.

government. And because, most important, people will start to self

:29:22.:29:27.

censor. We will find that the very fact of the total surveillance of

:29:27.:29:32.

our activities means that we bash it is not a question, as the Foreign

:29:32.:29:35.

Minister said, of if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to

:29:35.:29:38.

fear, but the structure of events will stop us doing things which we

:29:38.:29:44.

think are right. You think we are sleepwalking into this. Do you think

:29:44.:29:48.

people actually understand the nature of the meta data and how it

:29:48.:29:51.

operates, and the connections that are made? No, and that is partly the

:29:51.:29:58.

fault of the BBC reporting. Meta data, we do not talk about meta data

:29:58.:30:04.

because everyone will fall asleep. It is very important. There is a

:30:04.:30:10.

pattern. We have an electronic life, from the GPS in our telephone to our

:30:10.:30:14.

text messages, to the web wages we access. And what the intelligence

:30:14.:30:22.

services are doing, they are gathering 20 billion items of

:30:22.:30:27.

information, and they are creating a pattern of how we live. It is not

:30:27.:30:32.

about reading the content of the e-mail. It is not about getting the

:30:32.:30:37.

content, it is about mapping of who we are. But Glenn Greenwald is

:30:37.:30:42.

right, terrorists are smart. They have known this has been happening.

:30:42.:30:52.

RCEDCYAN Of course. They take risks. They are listening to the

:30:52.:30:58.

communication of terrorists. You have to find them in the first

:30:58.:31:04.

place. You have to go through the data in order to get the clues that

:31:04.:31:08.

enable you to get the information. What does it matter what the

:31:08.:31:13.

Brazilians are doing? What does it matter? The problem is, isn't it,

:31:13.:31:17.

that you might be going after terrorists, but there are lots of

:31:17.:31:25.

other interesting things. It's out of control. I entirely accept and I

:31:25.:31:29.

agree that there needs to be control over the system and there needs to

:31:29.:31:33.

be accountability. Do you think there's enough control? What I do

:31:33.:31:37.

believe is they're acting according to law and I do believe that given

:31:37.:31:41.

the public anxiety that's been aroused by this, that we need to

:31:41.:31:46.

have actually a body like the information and security committee

:31:46.:31:55.

doing a review. Is that a good thing? Metadata is not under the

:31:55.:32:00.

law. It is acting beyond the law at the moment. This is a crucial point

:32:00.:32:04.

and the idea that the intelligence services are saying, "Give us all

:32:04.:32:15.

the raw data, we need a clue." It's absurd. Can I put you something from

:32:15.:32:20.

the film, that there has been a deliberate undermining by the

:32:20.:32:24.

security services of encryption. There has always been a tension,

:32:25.:32:31.

which is not new, between the need for security and the ability also to

:32:31.:32:37.

intercept communications. This is not a new tension. Could you say

:32:37.:32:42.

hand on heart, in a way, because you think there should be a review, that

:32:42.:32:47.

Glenn Greenwald was right? No, absolutely not. No. There's no

:32:47.:32:52.

question that he has done a huge public service. What the ISC needed

:32:52.:32:59.

to do is actually - In the House of Commons? It's a joint committee of

:32:59.:33:02.

both Houses of senior MPs. There is to reason to suppose - If you were

:33:02.:33:11.

to - Any more than the judges who act who are hand maidens for the

:33:12.:33:20.

executive. What would you have said to Glenn Greenwald? There is no way

:33:20.:33:23.

that that young man will have been able to resist. Can I put that to

:33:23.:33:28.

you, that here is a senior intelligence expert in this country

:33:28.:33:33.

saying there is no way on Earth that Edward Snowden has not had to give

:33:33.:33:37.

us something in Russia or before that in China? The innor rans of

:33:37.:33:42.

those comments is truly astounding to me. First, you would think that a

:33:42.:33:51.

racial person -- a rational person, would have at least a little bit of

:33:51.:33:56.

evidence before saying that. There is none. What is the basis for this?

:33:56.:34:03.

But please let me make the point. I listened for a long time. She said

:34:03.:34:11.

they got the data on his laptop. That isn't how data works. It's not

:34:11.:34:15.

1998. It's stored on thumb drives and on those drives are very

:34:15.:34:20.

sophisticated means of encryption shells that as I said before and I

:34:20.:34:23.

know this because I've read the documents that I have, not even the

:34:23.:34:28.

NSA can break the encryption codes of 4,000 characters long. He doesn't

:34:28.:34:32.

even have them. Let me just put that to her. That is a clarification. He

:34:32.:34:41.

doesn't even have them? I don't believe any of that. The Russians

:34:41.:34:46.

have got sophisticated capability. Thank you all of you.

:34:46.:34:52.

Today, the Gambia announced it was leaving the Commonwealth much to the

:34:52.:34:57.

surprise of the Foreign Office and Commonwealth. The Gambian Government

:34:57.:35:04.

says it doesn't want to be part of a Ne-yo colonial establishment. If the

:35:04.:35:09.

Commonwealth is a club what are the rules and why would anyone want to

:35:09.:35:14.

be a member? There is some flash photography in this report. We hold

:35:14.:35:19.

our breath here in the islands of Figi, as Her Majesty steps ashore.

:35:19.:35:26.

When the Queen arrived here in 1953 she may have been struck by cultural

:35:26.:35:31.

differences. She was met with respectful silence. It was her very

:35:31.:35:37.

first tour and a beginning of a role she is said to love. Because our

:35:37.:35:41.

sovereign is a woman she is to be honoured first by women. Especially

:35:41.:35:49.

in this old and treasured custom of ours, the placing of a whale tooth

:35:49.:35:56.

upon our sacred canoe. For decades the Commonwealth has been trying to

:35:56.:35:59.

show it's more than a collection of former colonial powers. In March,

:35:59.:36:04.

the Queen signed the charter, which has respect for human rights and

:36:04.:36:10.

democracy at its core. I hope the carefully chosen words of the

:36:10.:36:15.

charter will reinvigorate efforts already begun to make the

:36:15.:36:22.

Commonwealth fit and agile for the years ahead. Gambia's President says

:36:22.:36:30.

he left the Commonwealth because he doesn't want to be lectured about

:36:30.:36:34.

human rights by the Ne-yo colonial west. It's not obvious they'll miss

:36:34.:36:38.

him very much. He thinks homosexuality is one of the three

:36:38.:36:43.

biggest threats to human existence and prayer beads and centre in hand

:36:43.:36:48.

he has offered to cure AIDS by boiling herbs. The Gambia was one of

:36:49.:36:54.

the 54 states. The exit means there are 18 countries from Africa.

:36:54.:36:58.

Roughly one in three people in the world belong to the Commonwealth, so

:36:58.:37:02.

it's a club with two billion people, with the Queen at the head and the

:37:03.:37:07.

monarch of 16 realms. Five members have their own monarchs, the

:37:07.:37:11.

remaining 32 are republics. Every member has equal status, so the

:37:11.:37:16.

little guy country get to rub shoulders with the big nations.

:37:16.:37:22.

Robert Mugabe took Zimbabwe out of the club ten years ago. Critics said

:37:22.:37:28.

he should have been ex-spelled years before. To them, the Commonwealth

:37:28.:37:32.

talks the talk on human rights, but does little to uphold them. Why,

:37:32.:37:38.

they ask, is the Commonwealth meeting in Sri Lanka in six weeks'

:37:38.:37:42.

time, where the Government is accused of killing thousands of

:37:42.:37:47.

civilians during its civil war? So what will Gambia lose? Well, not

:37:47.:37:51.

much. You don't get any trade privileges or any influence on

:37:51.:37:55.

economic and defence policy and there's no aid budget. You would be

:37:55.:38:00.

better off trying all the other clubs out there, like the G20. The

:38:00.:38:02.

Commonwealth club is a talking shop clubs out there, like the G20. The

:38:02.:38:05.

then, but look at who you get to talk to and you do get to play games

:38:05.:38:12.

all over the world. If you're still not convinced then think about who

:38:12.:38:17.

you could get to visit. The Windsors are such good sports. They do like

:38:17.:38:25.

dancing. And they don't mind dressing up. With me is the former

:38:25.:38:32.

UN deputy general Lord monthly lark brown and a member from the sect

:38:32.:38:40.

tear yacht. Do you think it's a Ne-yo colonial institution? No, I

:38:40.:38:46.

don't think it is. The track records in helping Zimbabwe obtain

:38:46.:38:50.

independence, the track record in helping South Africa get majority

:38:50.:38:55.

rule, so there are accomplishments in themselves. Surely there was an

:38:55.:39:06.

umbrella under which all sorts of dubious practises go on. Why hasn't

:39:07.:39:11.

it been able to reform some of the more appalling things happening?

:39:11.:39:15.

Gambia's retirement is an indication that the Commonwealth does have some

:39:15.:39:20.

teeth, because clearly Gambia was trying to pre-empt criticism at the

:39:20.:39:24.

summit and it's been criticised already by lots of other human

:39:24.:39:28.

rights organisations, so while the Commonwealth is not up there in

:39:28.:39:32.

bright light with the EU or the UN or strong regional organisations in

:39:32.:39:38.

Africa, it is an important club and association of countries that do

:39:38.:39:41.

share some kind of common standards. But, why do you think it is that

:39:42.:39:47.

Rwanda for example and most pose earlier on, but Rwanda, wants to

:39:47.:39:52.

join at this late stage, which in fact they're allowed in and they've

:39:52.:39:57.

now got a child solder army? There are lots of difficulties within the

:39:57.:40:01.

present Commonwealth. It's a mixture of contradictions, but also a

:40:02.:40:06.

ceiling on just how contraditory a country can be, so that there are

:40:06.:40:09.

certain limits that even the President of Rwanda would be very,

:40:09.:40:13.

very conscious of not breaking. I think it's to try to allude having

:40:13.:40:18.

the invitations apply to him and the President has taken this country out

:40:18.:40:22.

of the Commonwealth. But moving forward, the problem is, isn't it,

:40:22.:40:28.

that you say it's stopping the worst things happening, but as a result of

:40:28.:40:32.

the way it was born, Britain, for example, is reluctant to criticise,

:40:32.:40:38.

because it looks like an imperial power criticising? Don't

:40:38.:40:42.

underestimate the British role. It's quite behind the scenes a strong

:40:42.:40:46.

leader on this. It took a lead on making Pakistan go out under

:40:46.:40:52.

military rule and used the various committees effectively, but you

:40:52.:40:55.

cannot get away from the fact this is not an organisation built around

:40:55.:41:00.

geography or common interest and therefore it's a little bit of

:41:00.:41:03.

Septemberment in there -- sentiment, which means it's not quite

:41:03.:41:06.

effective. Therefore, do you think it has a limited shelve life? I

:41:06.:41:12.

think all the things around it with the sports and association of

:41:12.:41:15.

businesses and things that form around it are quite dynamic. But

:41:15.:41:20.

they are exclusive of others? The point is they are much more like the

:41:20.:41:29.

Olympics. Why have the Commonwealth Games not more often? It's a benign

:41:29.:41:34.

club that lets in those who want it. It won't be a first-tier

:41:34.:41:38.

organisation, but I suspect it has a lot of life left in it. Gentlemen,

:41:38.:41:40.

thank you. With one of the world's most

:41:40.:41:48.

important and cultural theorists, he has even been called the Elvis of

:41:48.:41:55.

cultural theory. Slavoj Zizek is a sworn enemy of capitalism. To his

:41:55.:42:01.

fans he's a hero of a dying radical left and critics a dangerous icon

:42:01.:42:07.

class who is responsible, but whatever you think it's hard to deny

:42:07.:42:11.

his entertainment value. Here is a clip from his new fill, The

:42:11.:42:19.

Pervert's guide to Ideology. That is the iceberg hitting the ship and it

:42:19.:42:24.

plays in the development of the lore story. When the ship docks I'm

:42:24.:42:29.

getting off with you. This is crazy. I know. It's slightly cynical. This

:42:29.:42:36.

would have been the true catastrophe. We can imagine how

:42:36.:42:42.

maybe after two or three weeks of intense sex in New York the love

:42:42.:42:49.

affair would somehow fade away. He joins me now. There is a great deal

:42:49.:42:55.

of irony promoting your thesis through the prism of Hollywood

:42:55.:43:01.

films? Why? I think Hollywood films offer in the disstilled form, an

:43:01.:43:07.

insight into where are we today. And I don't mean by ideology, this

:43:07.:43:16.

notion of some system which gives us a world view for countries and

:43:16.:43:18.

socialism or whatever, but simply a world view for countries and

:43:18.:43:24.

how do we make our life meaningful every day? It's the air we are

:43:24.:43:30.

breathing. But your theory seems to suggest that you think we are kind

:43:30.:43:36.

of dazed and enslaved. You were talking about enjoyment, that we

:43:36.:43:41.

don't have free will and we think - we are forced to think the only

:43:41.:43:46.

thing we can have is new lab raleism. Wait a minute. I'm

:43:46.:43:52.

absolutely not any kind of a sworn enemy of capitalism and democracy.

:43:52.:43:57.

What I think and it makes me sad, is that the two of them no longer go

:43:57.:44:02.

automatically together. My challenge to partisans of that is to look at

:44:02.:44:08.

China and Singapore and many others who show today the most dynamic

:44:08.:44:13.

forms of capitalism. Obviously to longer need democracy. A lot of

:44:13.:44:17.

Chinese people would say the lack of democracy is something they're

:44:17.:44:20.

having to put up with the explosion that they are not having the

:44:20.:44:26.

democracy they want. They don't have entire fr speech. Then you seem to

:44:26.:44:30.

suggest revolution should be coming from a dynamic, the leader and you

:44:30.:44:35.

think there should be a leader who shows the way, but we know from 20

:44:35.:44:41.

century history that a lot of the leaders have been flawed terror

:44:41.:44:44.

spreaders. Absolutely, but what I mean by leader, I would have to

:44:44.:44:48.

explain, but I don't have time now. Think about it, when people

:44:48.:44:52.

spontaneously organise themselves and so on, they always have a

:44:52.:44:57.

leader, about an authentic leader is not the one who gives the order, do

:44:57.:45:04.

this, don't do that. An authentic leader and basically there was an

:45:04.:45:10.

echo of this in Obama's first campaign, the famous yes we can, a

:45:10.:45:15.

leader lets you know it's not hopeless, you can do it, you can

:45:15.:45:20.

break the limitations and do what appears to be impossible. A leader

:45:20.:45:24.

sets you free. In order for that freedom to be given, there must be

:45:24.:45:29.

or may och be an element of violence? . You seem to suggest

:45:29.:45:31.

there is a nucleus of violence there is a nucleus ofviolence

:45:31.:45:46.

violence. You call it enans payings. What a minute, I'm clear. By

:45:46.:45:51.

violence I don't mean physical violence. Let's take an example with

:45:51.:45:58.

which we agree, that was a nice sublime moment, hundreds of

:45:58.:46:02.

thousands of people demonstrating there. What they did was violence

:46:02.:46:05.

that I don't know what violence is. What did they do? They brought the

:46:05.:46:12.

whole state to a standstill. And the whole point of Mubarak's police,

:46:12.:46:17.

physical violence was to restore normal run of things. The violence

:46:17.:46:22.

I'm for is not the physical violence of hitting people and so on, but

:46:22.:46:25.

it's the right of the people when they have enough to say stop, we

:46:25.:46:30.

don't participate. On one story that's been running here about the

:46:30.:46:35.

vilification of Ralph Miliband in the Daily Mail and the objection to

:46:35.:46:43.

it obviously by his son. Do you think that Marxism has the ability

:46:43.:46:47.

to scare and upset people? Mostly no. I'm the first to agree. Let's be

:46:47.:46:56.

frank I was only repeating this. The markist experience - by this states

:46:56.:47:01.

who legitimate their rule by reference to Marxism. They might

:47:01.:47:05.

have done something good, education and industrialisation and healthcare

:47:05.:47:12.

or whatever, but if it was one big ethical political catastrophe. I

:47:12.:47:16.

agree. We have run out of time to bring the interview with the compose

:47:16.:47:19.

agree. We have run out of time to you are hance Zimmer. We hope to

:47:19.:47:21.

show it tomorrow.

:47:21.:47:23.

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