04/10/2013 Newsnight


In Libya, the team asks why North Africans risk everything to go there. Plus an investigation on government spending on apprenticeships, and film composer Hans Zimmer.

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It is some sort of non- nonverbal language of ourure.


They crossed war-torn Somalia and a desert. They were half a mile away


from shore, the island of lap launch. Today, the death toll of


those killed off the tiny island stands at 100. There are warnings it


will rise significantly. The it Italian Prime Minister has declared


the tragedy one for the whole continent. Tonight Tim Whewell


reports on the migrants' journey on what keeps going wrong. Now, deep


under water, the ramshackle boat that was a death trap for so many


seeking a better life in Europe. Rescued from the sea and more than


150 of the migrants, mainly eerie trayians and some Malis who set off


from the coast. More bodies are being brought ashore to the tiny


island, far more than they have coffins for. Less than 200 miles to


the south, the Libyan shore, where the migrants began their journey,


the Libyan economy depends on workers from sub Saharan Africa.


Hundreds of thousands live here, although few are given official


papers. Some are happy to stay, but many want to move on further north.


This man came 13 years ago. He came to work as a security guard. He has


not seen his family since. Most want to go to Europe. They come to here.


They find jobs that get more money, to take the risk from the sea and go


to Europe. He tried and failed three times to go to Italy. They catch


everybody. Who caught you? Soldiers. Libyan


soldiers? Libyan soldiers. What happened? Libyan soldiers, they have


to see us from there, from the sea. They came to arrest everybody. Libya


is one of the main transit countries for economic migrants and those


escaping conflict further south. They enter across the open borders


and try and reach Europe from the long Mediterranean coastline. So


far, this year, 19, 400 migrants have reached Italy from Libya. More


than half of those, 10, 300, since the beginning of August. European


diplomats believe there are 20,000 more waiting to cross from Libya.


Newsnight understands from European diplomatic sources that Libya has


only about 20 Naval vessels to patrol the 11-00 -- 1100-mile


coastline. There are equally few resources to police the long desert


borders in the south. There, illegal immigrants are often rounded up by


armed groups linked to smuggling gangs. Libya's Defence Minister


promises a new surveillance system to guard the southern borders within


two years and controls on the coast too.


TRANSLATION: However many ships you have, you cannot control illegal


immigration, unless you control the shores. We are trying to find a


system to protect the beaches. A system based on informants, on men


working secretly to find smugglers. But that is an ambitious plan for a


country still in a state of anarchy after the overthrow of Muammar


Gaddafi. Even western diplomats don't expect


much from Libya at this stage. There'll have to be more


recognition, they say, that stopping the smuggling that caused this


tragedy must be a pan-European and not just an Italian task. Tim


Whewell. Well, the word disgraced comes to mind said the Pope of this


tragedy. When I speak to the UN UN Special Rapporteur I asked him whose


disgrace it was. I would say it is a disgrace for the states that create


the migration policies that result in those deaths. It is also a


disgrace for the people who provide these migrants with non-sea worthy


vessels. It is a disgrace, the whole picture. Everybody has a


responsibility. Migrants have a responsibility as well. Often they


don't know anything about what will happen to them. I guess you could


say that the pull factor is just the EU. That is the magnet for all these


people. The magnet is not the EU itself. The magnet is that they have


family or friends inside the EU who tell them, I'll find you a job.


Because there are jobs. These people in the E U, especially migrants,


they are not on welfare. In most countries they don't have access to


welfare payments or things like that. They all work. They work in


restaurants n the hospitality industry, in agriculture... They


work - they are employed by employers, local employers. What is


the solution then? You will not stop all these kind of industries using


migrant workforce? I am calling for political courage and leadership to


recognise that we need migrants and to create the kind of public


discourse that says that limiting migration is not the way to go for


the future. We have to recognise the needs for migrants at all, in all


categories, including low-skilled migrants. We will need them to


perform all the tasks that we don't want to perform at a certain cost.


So, you are saying open our borders then? Open our borders to these


people? No. Not open the borders, but create legal channels for


migration, much more, many more legal channels for migration,


including for low-skilled workers, because we need them. If we do that,


we are going to reduce, probably never eradicate, but reduce the


number of people who have to use smugglers to move. We are going to


reduce the number of deaths at sea or in deserts. We will reduce the


vulnerability of those migrants who suffer terrible fates while en route


towards our countries. We are too tough at the moment? At the moment I


think that countries are voluntarily not discussing the issue of the


labour needs for the next 20-40 years. I think there is sort of a


political consensus to not discuss this because it is a toxic issue at


electoral level. We have run out of time, but thank you for your time


this evening. Thank you. Goodbye. We talk to the film composer Hans


Zimmer. The director of a private company


with a lucrative contract to train apprentices at Morrisons has


resigned. Elmfield Training has been given more than £100,000 of


taxpayers' money over the past three years. Tonight, we hear from two


former employees with who had to change documents to boost the amount


of money the company could claim. What is the connection between this


luxury house, this apprenticeship scheme and this rich businessman?


Answer - you, the taxpayer helped to pay for them. How? Well, it all


started with an ambition training programme at Morrisons, backed by


the Government which was outsource tods a private company -- outsourced


to a private company called Elmfield. A staggering four in ten


of all Morrisons staff were Elmfield. A staggering four in ten


apparently apprentices. These were no ordinary apprentices recruited


fresh from school. Most worked for MORI sons and were over 20 -- for


Morrisons and were over 25. There seemed to be very little job


training involved. This man was sceptical at the time.


It was really very unrealistic to do a high-quality programme with that


volume and under the pressure of a high-quality programme with that


that speed, really, bearing in mind the staffing requirements and the


time away from the shop floor which should have been needed were they to


be quality apprenticeships. In the first Year of the Contract Elmfield


made a £12 million profit. £3 million went to the chief executive.


He was grilled by a Government Select Committee 18 months ago. How


much of that £12 million was Government money? It was all


Government money. I think that much money money made


out of a business of your kind is a rippoff. Now we can reveal, unknown


to Morrison, what was going on behind the scenes. Two former


assessors for elms field have told Newsnight they were routinely asked


to change documents to claim Government funding for Morrisons'


staff. Staff who never wanted to be apprentices. Their claims are backed


up by an e-mail trail spanning two years, written by a number of senior


managers, like this one from January, 2011.


What I took from it was everybody was to be signed up as an


apprentice, regardless of whether was to be signed up as an


they wanted to do it or not. Many Morrisons staff didn't want to do


the English or maths required to complete an apprenticeship. This was


the e-mail instruction to assessors. It warns that the full words should


not be entered on to the paperwork. On this file then, what does the D


stand for? That stands for declined F the learner didn't want to do --.


If the learner didn't want to do it, then we would put D, for declined.


So the money is claimed for them to do an apprenticeship, but you know


they don't want to do it? Yes. What do you think of that? It is an


abuse. The learner shouldn't have been signed up at all. If the


funding is there to deliver the main qualification that it was not


suitable for them. Each apprenticeship was worth £1300 to


Elmfield. By March, 2012, the number not completing the apprenticeship


was becoming a problem. Elmfield were enrolling employees on


these qualifications, knowing they had declined to do them. That is not


allowed. It is as serious as the learner not even existing in the


circumstances where a qualification is not being delivered.


We showed the internal e-mails to the chair of the Select Committee


that grilled Elmfield's chief the chair of the Select Committee


executive 18 months ago. I was astonished to see it. Horrified. I


really regret we did not have that e-mail trail prior to the committee


inquiry. If we had, then we could really put the chief executive of


inquiry. If we had, then we could Elmfield on the spot, the minister


on the spot and the skills funding agency on the spot. You cannot help


but feel there is a political agenda here. Drive up numbers of


apprenticeships. Don't check too close about the quality. Don't be


too concerned about the amount of money ploughed into them. The


warning bells that something was not right were ringing 18 months ago.


Yet, the Government continued to pour millions of pounds of public


money into its training for Morrisons. No-one thought to look


behind the scenes until a recent routine Ofsted inspection. The


training furore sons got the lowest score of four. Inadequate. Its


apprenticeship pass rate was unacceptably low.


Morrisons stopped using Elmfield for training in August. The owner


resigned as a director - the same day we presented our evidence. The


new board of directors told Newsnight they have launched a


review. The skills funding agency says it is


currently investigating allegations against Elmfield. The company is not


allowed to take on any new business for the moment. But Elmfield has


already earned more than £60 million from Morrisons apprentices. Half of


already earned more than £60 million whom never completed the course.


What has become of all that taxpayers' cash? The company used


some to buy expensive houses like this one and this one - home to Mr


Syddall's daughter. He says she pays full market rent. He lives next door


and took a dividend of £1 million in 2012, the same year his -- company


said it had a loss. Shouldn't the Government scrutinise whether this


was taxpayers' money well spent? We asked if a minister from the


department of business could join us to discuss this, but no-one was


available this evening. After Ed Miliband's conference address last


week, the joke doing the rounds from those on the right is he had given


the longest suicide speech in history. It with us a reference to


the 1983 Labour manifesto, to which they claimed he had just returned.


The starting gun for the general election is now fired. The question


for the next 18 months is this - has a real ideological divide opened up


between the two main parties? Is Labour really lookingback wards? It


will bring a freeze... Ed Miliband standing by his vow to freeze energy


bills. When he insisted last week that if they won the election this


would be the case, it wasn't just the big six firms whose backs he got


up. The Daily Mail decided that Ed was getting too red, inferring he


might have been influenced by his late father, who they claimed hated


Britain. There has been disillusionment from. Lord


Sainsbury's who gave in the Brown and Blar years stopped in 2010. He


referred to Ed Miliband as "average." He a argues a 70s type of


socialism, which critics claim they "average." He a argues a 70s type of


cling on to doesn't work, nor does the liberalism which dominated the


thinking of Thatcher and Reagan. Well Lord Sainsbury is with me now,


joined by Fraser Nelson, the editor of The Spectator. Talk us through


progressive capitalism. How is it different to what we have seen


before? It is different. It is based on really a belief in capitalism. It


says, if capitalism is going to work, there have to be rules and


regulations about how it happens. There have to be institutions. And


the state or the Government has to set those rules and regulations


because they deal with conflicting interests. Wasn't that what we saw


under new Labour? I think we didn't see enough of that. We were actually


very persuaded by this sort of laissez-faire capitalism. We saw it


over that particular period. We didn't give enough attention to the


areas where we should have had regulation. As a result of that, we


missed the fact that there were some very serious failures taking place


in capitalism. That is how things went so badly wrong in 2008? Not


quite. It was not so much too much went so badly wrong in 2008? Not


regulation, it was the wrong sort of regulation, fractured. Wrong touch


rather than hard touch. The problem, of course, now is that we need to


get back to something whereby Government regulates properly. Right


now Lord Sainsburies is arguing for more -- Lord Sainsbury is arguing


for more. It is a blueprint for what Ed Miliband wants to believe. Has he


read this? I don't know. I sent a copy. You talk about the race to the


bottom. No, a race to the top. It is very important. It is the race to


the top, not to the bottom. This thing of, it was the fault of the


regulators - this is nonsense. Take the situation with the banks. The


banks were running the banks on an absurd basis. First of all, they had


not got enough equity. Secondly, they made their balance sheets look


very goodbye taking things off the balance sheet. Does Fraser think


this is the way that capitalism balance sheet. Does Fraser think


should run? Should the state actually take some interest in


making sure these things don't happen? Let me take a very current


significant problem - energy prices - the cost of living. We heard the


remedy that Ed Miliband is proposing. How would progressive


capitalism work on that? I am not here as an apologise for Ed


Miliband. I don't think any... How do you apply your philosophy to a


practical solution? I think you do have to have, in areas where it is


doubtful there is proper competition taking place, you do need to have


some kind of regulation by a body like Ofgem and that we have Ofgem


and the question is, how it works and whether that is a good thing.


Ofgem, incidentally, was set up by and whether that is a good thing.


Mrs Thatcher. When I came into Government it was regulating the


energy situation very carefully. There was something called re tal


prices less 1%. That was the There was something called re tal


regulation of the market. Do you believe that the big six need


regulation? Well, of course they do. Absolutely. I am not a market


fundamentalist nor is anybody else. If you want to make electricity


cheaper, then takeaway all the green taxes that are now embedded in them.


That is a problem the Government has been using the Energy Bills to do


the brunt of its taxation work for all of these windmills and what have


you. You can reduce energy bills simply by not... By getting rid of


the windmills and what have you. That was a perfect example of


the windmills and what have you. progressive capitalism. It says, we


believe in capitalism, but you have to have some rules and regulations


about how things work, particularly in cases where it's not a really


good competitive market. So, I mean we probably agree. Let's take, for


example, the potential of a house housing bubble. What would be the


solutions that your book, that progressive capitalism would impose


on that? My book is not greatly about macro-economics. It is about


how markets work. The question there is a different one, it is about


macro-economics and the question is - is it a sensible thing to do to


try and get growth by pouring money into the economy? Would you


intervene in that situation? There's no question of intervening, there is


intervention taking place. The Bank of England is pouring money into the


economy. The question is - is that a sensible economic policy? I think he


is being hard in his own book. He suggests that the problem last time


was too much cheap debt. We are seeing the same now. There shouldn't


be. You are asking for trouble. One other thing is an end to big donor


culture. You have suggested a cap of £10,000. Many will look at you and


say this man has donated £15 million £10,000. Many will look at you and


to Labour. Could you see yourself donating to Labour in the future,


particularly if the unions pull out? Well, I have said, very clearly,


that I'm not really in the business at the moment of supporting


political parties. I have two jobs, one as Chancellor of dame bridge and


the other is I chair the institute of Government. Both these parties, I


think it is much easier if I am not seen to be... Is that no to the next


election for Labour? It is a no to any political party because I don't


want to get involved in politics in the situation where I need to be


seen to be independent. And I guess this week could have been dominated


by discussion of the ideological water starting to open up between


the two leaders. Instead it has been dominated by Ed Miliband and the


Mail. Was he right to wade in, do you think? He is entitled to


complain as any reader of a newspaper. It is a shame because it


has taken the discussion away from what I think is a hugely interesting


intellectual space he's opened with the Tories. You quite like what he


has to say - he's your kind of guy. Was he right to wade in? Yes. I


think what the Daily Mail did was extremely distasteful. I don't think


anyone is supporting it. And if someone attacked my father on a


totally wrong reason, I would speak out as well. I think most people in


the country share that view. Thank you both very much.


From Thelma and Louise, The Dark Knight to Rush, Hans Zimmer has


scored more than 100 films. He can create the atmosphere with a


singlevy lin note or the extraordinary drumming by 12 of the


best session drummers as in Man of Steel. He had two weeks of piano


lessons and was involved in the first ever music video on MTV, radio


killed the video star. -- video kil d Video Killed the


Radio Star. They tell me the story. I sit there


and try and come up with the thing that they cannot think.


That's the job. Your job is to surprise them.


He has scored sound track after sound track for a generation. He was


recognised by his peers and then rewarded them with a familiar sound


from Inception. Not one, but two more awards. Your


shelves are groaning now! Obviously your lack of formal musical


education has not held you back? No it has not held me back. If


anything, I was thinking about this last night, it sort of helped - I am


not set in my style. I am not trying to develop my style. I go, oh, this


is interesting. Let's go over here and make a record with this. Let's


go to a foreign country and figure something out here. I think it is


actually, I'm not stuck in trying to be Hans Zimmer. Do you ever feel the


lack of being able to play? Do you feel yourself as being an enabler


who allows others to play? That is the point. You use the word twice -


play is the operative word. Playfulness, playing. Getting people


involved. The notes are just, you know, some architectural instruction


manual. You go up, you go down, whatever. To actually give them


purpose, to give them context, that comes from the music. You obviously


love musicians. There is a wonderful footage from Man of Steel of the 12


drummers - the best session musicians.


It was so easy. Williams, who is the busiest human being on earth, lives


in Miami, I gots Jason to come from Miami. I said, come on, you have to


be part of it. He not only gives people what they want. He gives


people something they didn't realise they need. That is because it is his


mentality to always overgive and really dive i.


You do so many films It is my heart and soul. It is my heart and soul


because I love doing it. I get excited when somebody comes along


and they show you some images and they have an idea and they are


excited. You pay tribute to musicians, because you say, what


would you be without the musicians? Vy suspicion as well. This is my


suspicion, that the idea of a symphony orchestra or an orchestra


or string quartet, or whatever, that is more than music, it is some sort


of non- nonverbal language cornerstone of our culture.


If we lose that, we will lose something far beyond just the music.


That is my gripe with the BBC - with all television stations. They all


go, oh, well, you can do it in your bedroom on a sin ther sizer. It is


only getting away with it. It is not making things better. It is not


really adding true emotion. It is not really connecting the audience


to the emotion that a musician, you know, the great craftsmanship and


art that a musician brings to something. Is there something you


like more than other? Do you like darker films? I have been thinking


about this. Everybody is the internal angst and thaw stuff. Every


character -- and all that stuff. Every character... What about a good


rom com? I have - look I have done a lot of rom comes. The idea that, for


instance, that in the '70s, when you have the space programme, we look


out to the stars. We would, we would see some sort of a future that was


beyond our own little miserable analysed self. It is just the idea


that maybe it is time to reinvent some of this stuff and just look


outwards a bit more. Aren't we a little bored with our own paranoia.


Aren't people just a little bored with it? A great, big beautiful


world out there, if you just look at it.


The great Hans Zimmer. Let me take you through the front-pages of


Saturday's papers. The Times has Briton's behind terror group's bid


to wage chemical war. Fears that Al-Qaeda will use them on


western targets N the Guardian, we have hunt on commission course as he


says no to NHS pay rises. Ministers sparked a new confrontation by


trying to derail a pay rise. The Daily Mirror has - "we tried to kill


Harry many times." FT, 75% of new vehicles bought with


loans. In New York, the subway expansion


project has moved with the times and dispensed with the City's legendary


side walk ventilation greats, immortalised by 20th Century Fox in


the Seven Year Itch.


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