04/10/2013 Newsnight


04/10/2013

In Libya, the team asks why North Africans risk everything to go there. Plus an investigation on government spending on apprenticeships, and film composer Hans Zimmer.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

It is some sort of non- nonverbal language of ourure.

:00:08.:01:22.

They crossed war-torn Somalia and a desert. They were half a mile away

:01:22.:01:34.

from shore, the island of lap launch. Today, the death toll of

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those killed off the tiny island stands at 100. There are warnings it

:01:38.:01:44.

will rise significantly. The it Italian Prime Minister has declared

:01:44.:01:48.

the tragedy one for the whole continent. Tonight Tim Whewell

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reports on the migrants' journey on what keeps going wrong. Now, deep

:01:53.:01:59.

under water, the ramshackle boat that was a death trap for so many

:01:59.:02:03.

seeking a better life in Europe. Rescued from the sea and more than

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150 of the migrants, mainly eerie trayians and some Malis who set off

:02:09.:02:16.

from the coast. More bodies are being brought ashore to the tiny

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island, far more than they have coffins for. Less than 200 miles to

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the south, the Libyan shore, where the migrants began their journey,

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the Libyan economy depends on workers from sub Saharan Africa.

:02:28.:02:32.

Hundreds of thousands live here, although few are given official

:02:33.:02:38.

papers. Some are happy to stay, but many want to move on further north.

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This man came 13 years ago. He came to work as a security guard. He has

:02:47.:02:53.

not seen his family since. Most want to go to Europe. They come to here.

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They find jobs that get more money, to take the risk from the sea and go

:02:59.:03:10.

to Europe. He tried and failed three times to go to Italy. They catch

:03:10.:03:17.

everybody. Who caught you? Soldiers. Libyan

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soldiers? Libyan soldiers. What happened? Libyan soldiers, they have

:03:23.:03:32.

to see us from there, from the sea. They came to arrest everybody. Libya

:03:32.:03:37.

is one of the main transit countries for economic migrants and those

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escaping conflict further south. They enter across the open borders

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and try and reach Europe from the long Mediterranean coastline. So

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far, this year, 19, 400 migrants have reached Italy from Libya. More

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than half of those, 10, 300, since the beginning of August. European

:03:58.:04:03.

diplomats believe there are 20,000 more waiting to cross from Libya.

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Newsnight understands from European diplomatic sources that Libya has

:04:08.:04:14.

only about 20 Naval vessels to patrol the 11-00 -- 1100-mile

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coastline. There are equally few resources to police the long desert

:04:22.:04:27.

borders in the south. There, illegal immigrants are often rounded up by

:04:27.:04:31.

armed groups linked to smuggling gangs. Libya's Defence Minister

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promises a new surveillance system to guard the southern borders within

:04:36.:04:40.

two years and controls on the coast too.

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TRANSLATION: However many ships you have, you cannot control illegal

:04:46.:04:49.

immigration, unless you control the shores. We are trying to find a

:04:49.:04:54.

system to protect the beaches. A system based on informants, on men

:04:54.:04:59.

working secretly to find smugglers. But that is an ambitious plan for a

:04:59.:05:06.

country still in a state of anarchy after the overthrow of Muammar

:05:06.:05:10.

Gaddafi. Even western diplomats don't expect

:05:10.:05:15.

much from Libya at this stage. There'll have to be more

:05:15.:05:18.

recognition, they say, that stopping the smuggling that caused this

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tragedy must be a pan-European and not just an Italian task. Tim

:05:22.:05:28.

Whewell. Well, the word disgraced comes to mind said the Pope of this

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tragedy. When I speak to the UN UN Special Rapporteur I asked him whose

:05:35.:05:42.

disgrace it was. I would say it is a disgrace for the states that create

:05:42.:05:46.

the migration policies that result in those deaths. It is also a

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disgrace for the people who provide these migrants with non-sea worthy

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vessels. It is a disgrace, the whole picture. Everybody has a

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responsibility. Migrants have a responsibility as well. Often they

:06:05.:06:08.

don't know anything about what will happen to them. I guess you could

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say that the pull factor is just the EU. That is the magnet for all these

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people. The magnet is not the EU itself. The magnet is that they have

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family or friends inside the EU who tell them, I'll find you a job.

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Because there are jobs. These people in the E U, especially migrants,

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they are not on welfare. In most countries they don't have access to

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welfare payments or things like that. They all work. They work in

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restaurants n the hospitality industry, in agriculture... They

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work - they are employed by employers, local employers. What is

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the solution then? You will not stop all these kind of industries using

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migrant workforce? I am calling for political courage and leadership to

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recognise that we need migrants and to create the kind of public

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discourse that says that limiting migration is not the way to go for

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the future. We have to recognise the needs for migrants at all, in all

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categories, including low-skilled migrants. We will need them to

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perform all the tasks that we don't want to perform at a certain cost.

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So, you are saying open our borders then? Open our borders to these

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people? No. Not open the borders, but create legal channels for

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migration, much more, many more legal channels for migration,

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including for low-skilled workers, because we need them. If we do that,

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we are going to reduce, probably never eradicate, but reduce the

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number of people who have to use smugglers to move. We are going to

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reduce the number of deaths at sea or in deserts. We will reduce the

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vulnerability of those migrants who suffer terrible fates while en route

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towards our countries. We are too tough at the moment? At the moment I

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think that countries are voluntarily not discussing the issue of the

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labour needs for the next 20-40 years. I think there is sort of a

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political consensus to not discuss this because it is a toxic issue at

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electoral level. We have run out of time, but thank you for your time

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this evening. Thank you. Goodbye. We talk to the film composer Hans

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Zimmer. The director of a private company

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with a lucrative contract to train apprentices at Morrisons has

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resigned. Elmfield Training has been given more than £100,000 of

:09:03.:09:08.

taxpayers' money over the past three years. Tonight, we hear from two

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former employees with who had to change documents to boost the amount

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of money the company could claim. What is the connection between this

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luxury house, this apprenticeship scheme and this rich businessman?

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Answer - you, the taxpayer helped to pay for them. How? Well, it all

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started with an ambition training programme at Morrisons, backed by

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the Government which was outsource tods a private company -- outsourced

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to a private company called Elmfield. A staggering four in ten

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of all Morrisons staff were Elmfield. A staggering four in ten

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apparently apprentices. These were no ordinary apprentices recruited

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fresh from school. Most worked for MORI sons and were over 20 -- for

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Morrisons and were over 25. There seemed to be very little job

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training involved. This man was sceptical at the time.

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It was really very unrealistic to do a high-quality programme with that

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volume and under the pressure of a high-quality programme with that

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that speed, really, bearing in mind the staffing requirements and the

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time away from the shop floor which should have been needed were they to

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be quality apprenticeships. In the first Year of the Contract Elmfield

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made a £12 million profit. £3 million went to the chief executive.

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He was grilled by a Government Select Committee 18 months ago. How

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much of that £12 million was Government money? It was all

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Government money. I think that much money money made

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out of a business of your kind is a rippoff. Now we can reveal, unknown

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to Morrison, what was going on behind the scenes. Two former

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assessors for elms field have told Newsnight they were routinely asked

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to change documents to claim Government funding for Morrisons'

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staff. Staff who never wanted to be apprentices. Their claims are backed

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up by an e-mail trail spanning two years, written by a number of senior

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managers, like this one from January, 2011.

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What I took from it was everybody was to be signed up as an

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apprentice, regardless of whether was to be signed up as an

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they wanted to do it or not. Many Morrisons staff didn't want to do

:11:47.:11:52.

the English or maths required to complete an apprenticeship. This was

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the e-mail instruction to assessors. It warns that the full words should

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not be entered on to the paperwork. On this file then, what does the D

:12:08.:12:14.

stand for? That stands for declined F the learner didn't want to do --.

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If the learner didn't want to do it, then we would put D, for declined.

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So the money is claimed for them to do an apprenticeship, but you know

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they don't want to do it? Yes. What do you think of that? It is an

:12:29.:12:34.

abuse. The learner shouldn't have been signed up at all. If the

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funding is there to deliver the main qualification that it was not

:12:40.:12:44.

suitable for them. Each apprenticeship was worth £1300 to

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Elmfield. By March, 2012, the number not completing the apprenticeship

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was becoming a problem. Elmfield were enrolling employees on

:12:52.:13:10.

these qualifications, knowing they had declined to do them. That is not

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allowed. It is as serious as the learner not even existing in the

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circumstances where a qualification is not being delivered.

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We showed the internal e-mails to the chair of the Select Committee

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that grilled Elmfield's chief the chair of the Select Committee

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executive 18 months ago. I was astonished to see it. Horrified. I

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really regret we did not have that e-mail trail prior to the committee

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inquiry. If we had, then we could really put the chief executive of

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inquiry. If we had, then we could Elmfield on the spot, the minister

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on the spot and the skills funding agency on the spot. You cannot help

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but feel there is a political agenda here. Drive up numbers of

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apprenticeships. Don't check too close about the quality. Don't be

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too concerned about the amount of money ploughed into them. The

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warning bells that something was not right were ringing 18 months ago.

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Yet, the Government continued to pour millions of pounds of public

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money into its training for Morrisons. No-one thought to look

:14:15.:14:21.

behind the scenes until a recent routine Ofsted inspection. The

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training furore sons got the lowest score of four. Inadequate. Its

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apprenticeship pass rate was unacceptably low.

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Morrisons stopped using Elmfield for training in August. The owner

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resigned as a director - the same day we presented our evidence. The

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new board of directors told Newsnight they have launched a

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review. The skills funding agency says it is

:14:53.:15:13.

currently investigating allegations against Elmfield. The company is not

:15:13.:15:17.

allowed to take on any new business for the moment. But Elmfield has

:15:17.:15:24.

already earned more than £60 million from Morrisons apprentices. Half of

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already earned more than £60 million whom never completed the course.

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What has become of all that taxpayers' cash? The company used

:15:30.:15:34.

some to buy expensive houses like this one and this one - home to Mr

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Syddall's daughter. He says she pays full market rent. He lives next door

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and took a dividend of £1 million in 2012, the same year his -- company

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said it had a loss. Shouldn't the Government scrutinise whether this

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was taxpayers' money well spent? We asked if a minister from the

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department of business could join us to discuss this, but no-one was

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available this evening. After Ed Miliband's conference address last

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week, the joke doing the rounds from those on the right is he had given

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the longest suicide speech in history. It with us a reference to

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the 1983 Labour manifesto, to which they claimed he had just returned.

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The starting gun for the general election is now fired. The question

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for the next 18 months is this - has a real ideological divide opened up

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between the two main parties? Is Labour really lookingback wards? It

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will bring a freeze... Ed Miliband standing by his vow to freeze energy

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bills. When he insisted last week that if they won the election this

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would be the case, it wasn't just the big six firms whose backs he got

:16:50.:16:55.

up. The Daily Mail decided that Ed was getting too red, inferring he

:16:55.:17:01.

might have been influenced by his late father, who they claimed hated

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Britain. There has been disillusionment from. Lord

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Sainsbury's who gave in the Brown and Blar years stopped in 2010. He

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referred to Ed Miliband as "average." He a argues a 70s type of

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socialism, which critics claim they "average." He a argues a 70s type of

:17:23.:17:27.

cling on to doesn't work, nor does the liberalism which dominated the

:17:27.:17:30.

thinking of Thatcher and Reagan. Well Lord Sainsbury is with me now,

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joined by Fraser Nelson, the editor of The Spectator. Talk us through

:17:44.:17:49.

progressive capitalism. How is it different to what we have seen

:17:49.:17:54.

before? It is different. It is based on really a belief in capitalism. It

:17:54.:17:59.

says, if capitalism is going to work, there have to be rules and

:17:59.:18:03.

regulations about how it happens. There have to be institutions. And

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the state or the Government has to set those rules and regulations

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because they deal with conflicting interests. Wasn't that what we saw

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under new Labour? I think we didn't see enough of that. We were actually

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very persuaded by this sort of laissez-faire capitalism. We saw it

:18:21.:18:26.

over that particular period. We didn't give enough attention to the

:18:26.:18:29.

areas where we should have had regulation. As a result of that, we

:18:29.:18:33.

missed the fact that there were some very serious failures taking place

:18:33.:18:38.

in capitalism. That is how things went so badly wrong in 2008? Not

:18:38.:18:41.

quite. It was not so much too much went so badly wrong in 2008? Not

:18:41.:18:49.

regulation, it was the wrong sort of regulation, fractured. Wrong touch

:18:49.:18:52.

rather than hard touch. The problem, of course, now is that we need to

:18:52.:18:57.

get back to something whereby Government regulates properly. Right

:18:57.:19:04.

now Lord Sainsburies is arguing for more -- Lord Sainsbury is arguing

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for more. It is a blueprint for what Ed Miliband wants to believe. Has he

:19:10.:19:15.

read this? I don't know. I sent a copy. You talk about the race to the

:19:15.:19:19.

bottom. No, a race to the top. It is very important. It is the race to

:19:19.:19:23.

the top, not to the bottom. This thing of, it was the fault of the

:19:23.:19:27.

regulators - this is nonsense. Take the situation with the banks. The

:19:27.:19:32.

banks were running the banks on an absurd basis. First of all, they had

:19:32.:19:38.

not got enough equity. Secondly, they made their balance sheets look

:19:38.:19:42.

very goodbye taking things off the balance sheet. Does Fraser think

:19:42.:19:44.

this is the way that capitalism balance sheet. Does Fraser think

:19:44.:19:48.

should run? Should the state actually take some interest in

:19:48.:19:52.

making sure these things don't happen? Let me take a very current

:19:52.:19:56.

significant problem - energy prices - the cost of living. We heard the

:19:56.:20:01.

remedy that Ed Miliband is proposing. How would progressive

:20:01.:20:06.

capitalism work on that? I am not here as an apologise for Ed

:20:06.:20:12.

Miliband. I don't think any... How do you apply your philosophy to a

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practical solution? I think you do have to have, in areas where it is

:20:16.:20:22.

doubtful there is proper competition taking place, you do need to have

:20:22.:20:27.

some kind of regulation by a body like Ofgem and that we have Ofgem

:20:27.:20:32.

and the question is, how it works and whether that is a good thing.

:20:32.:20:35.

Ofgem, incidentally, was set up by and whether that is a good thing.

:20:35.:20:41.

Mrs Thatcher. When I came into Government it was regulating the

:20:41.:20:47.

energy situation very carefully. There was something called re tal

:20:47.:20:51.

prices less 1%. That was the There was something called re tal

:20:52.:20:55.

regulation of the market. Do you believe that the big six need

:20:55.:21:00.

regulation? Well, of course they do. Absolutely. I am not a market

:21:00.:21:06.

fundamentalist nor is anybody else. If you want to make electricity

:21:06.:21:10.

cheaper, then takeaway all the green taxes that are now embedded in them.

:21:10.:21:13.

That is a problem the Government has been using the Energy Bills to do

:21:13.:21:17.

the brunt of its taxation work for all of these windmills and what have

:21:17.:21:22.

you. You can reduce energy bills simply by not... By getting rid of

:21:22.:21:28.

the windmills and what have you. That was a perfect example of

:21:28.:21:31.

the windmills and what have you. progressive capitalism. It says, we

:21:31.:21:35.

believe in capitalism, but you have to have some rules and regulations

:21:35.:21:39.

about how things work, particularly in cases where it's not a really

:21:39.:21:44.

good competitive market. So, I mean we probably agree. Let's take, for

:21:44.:21:50.

example, the potential of a house housing bubble. What would be the

:21:50.:21:56.

solutions that your book, that progressive capitalism would impose

:21:56.:22:00.

on that? My book is not greatly about macro-economics. It is about

:22:00.:22:04.

how markets work. The question there is a different one, it is about

:22:04.:22:08.

macro-economics and the question is - is it a sensible thing to do to

:22:08.:22:12.

try and get growth by pouring money into the economy? Would you

:22:13.:22:18.

intervene in that situation? There's no question of intervening, there is

:22:18.:22:23.

intervention taking place. The Bank of England is pouring money into the

:22:23.:22:27.

economy. The question is - is that a sensible economic policy? I think he

:22:27.:22:31.

is being hard in his own book. He suggests that the problem last time

:22:31.:22:39.

was too much cheap debt. We are seeing the same now. There shouldn't

:22:39.:22:43.

be. You are asking for trouble. One other thing is an end to big donor

:22:43.:22:49.

culture. You have suggested a cap of £10,000. Many will look at you and

:22:49.:22:51.

say this man has donated £15 million £10,000. Many will look at you and

:22:52.:22:56.

to Labour. Could you see yourself donating to Labour in the future,

:22:56.:23:00.

particularly if the unions pull out? Well, I have said, very clearly,

:23:00.:23:03.

that I'm not really in the business at the moment of supporting

:23:03.:23:08.

political parties. I have two jobs, one as Chancellor of dame bridge and

:23:08.:23:13.

the other is I chair the institute of Government. Both these parties, I

:23:13.:23:17.

think it is much easier if I am not seen to be... Is that no to the next

:23:17.:23:22.

election for Labour? It is a no to any political party because I don't

:23:22.:23:25.

want to get involved in politics in the situation where I need to be

:23:25.:23:30.

seen to be independent. And I guess this week could have been dominated

:23:30.:23:34.

by discussion of the ideological water starting to open up between

:23:34.:23:38.

the two leaders. Instead it has been dominated by Ed Miliband and the

:23:38.:23:43.

Mail. Was he right to wade in, do you think? He is entitled to

:23:43.:23:47.

complain as any reader of a newspaper. It is a shame because it

:23:47.:23:51.

has taken the discussion away from what I think is a hugely interesting

:23:51.:23:56.

intellectual space he's opened with the Tories. You quite like what he

:23:56.:24:02.

has to say - he's your kind of guy. Was he right to wade in? Yes. I

:24:02.:24:08.

think what the Daily Mail did was extremely distasteful. I don't think

:24:08.:24:12.

anyone is supporting it. And if someone attacked my father on a

:24:12.:24:16.

totally wrong reason, I would speak out as well. I think most people in

:24:16.:24:21.

the country share that view. Thank you both very much.

:24:21.:24:26.

From Thelma and Louise, The Dark Knight to Rush, Hans Zimmer has

:24:26.:24:32.

scored more than 100 films. He can create the atmosphere with a

:24:32.:24:36.

singlevy lin note or the extraordinary drumming by 12 of the

:24:36.:24:40.

best session drummers as in Man of Steel. He had two weeks of piano

:24:40.:24:45.

lessons and was involved in the first ever music video on MTV, radio

:24:45.:24:51.

killed the video star. -- video kil d Video Killed the

:24:51.:25:01.

Radio Star. They tell me the story. I sit there

:25:01.:25:13.

and try and come up with the thing that they cannot think.

:25:13.:25:18.

That's the job. Your job is to surprise them.

:25:18.:25:23.

He has scored sound track after sound track for a generation. He was

:25:23.:25:28.

recognised by his peers and then rewarded them with a familiar sound

:25:28.:25:32.

from Inception. Not one, but two more awards. Your

:25:32.:25:46.

shelves are groaning now! Obviously your lack of formal musical

:25:46.:25:50.

education has not held you back? No it has not held me back. If

:25:50.:25:55.

anything, I was thinking about this last night, it sort of helped - I am

:25:55.:26:03.

not set in my style. I am not trying to develop my style. I go, oh, this

:26:03.:26:07.

is interesting. Let's go over here and make a record with this. Let's

:26:07.:26:11.

go to a foreign country and figure something out here. I think it is

:26:11.:26:18.

actually, I'm not stuck in trying to be Hans Zimmer. Do you ever feel the

:26:18.:26:23.

lack of being able to play? Do you feel yourself as being an enabler

:26:23.:26:28.

who allows others to play? That is the point. You use the word twice -

:26:28.:26:35.

play is the operative word. Playfulness, playing. Getting people

:26:35.:26:40.

involved. The notes are just, you know, some architectural instruction

:26:40.:26:46.

manual. You go up, you go down, whatever. To actually give them

:26:46.:26:51.

purpose, to give them context, that comes from the music. You obviously

:26:51.:26:58.

love musicians. There is a wonderful footage from Man of Steel of the 12

:26:58.:27:04.

drummers - the best session musicians.

:27:04.:27:13.

It was so easy. Williams, who is the busiest human being on earth, lives

:27:13.:27:20.

in Miami, I gots Jason to come from Miami. I said, come on, you have to

:27:20.:27:24.

be part of it. He not only gives people what they want. He gives

:27:24.:27:29.

people something they didn't realise they need. That is because it is his

:27:29.:27:35.

mentality to always overgive and really dive i.

:27:35.:27:46.

You do so many films It is my heart and soul. It is my heart and soul

:27:46.:27:54.

because I love doing it. I get excited when somebody comes along

:27:54.:27:58.

and they show you some images and they have an idea and they are

:27:58.:28:02.

excited. You pay tribute to musicians, because you say, what

:28:02.:28:06.

would you be without the musicians? Vy suspicion as well. This is my

:28:06.:28:13.

suspicion, that the idea of a symphony orchestra or an orchestra

:28:13.:28:19.

or string quartet, or whatever, that is more than music, it is some sort

:28:19.:28:28.

of non- nonverbal language cornerstone of our culture.

:28:28.:28:34.

If we lose that, we will lose something far beyond just the music.

:28:34.:28:41.

That is my gripe with the BBC - with all television stations. They all

:28:41.:28:46.

go, oh, well, you can do it in your bedroom on a sin ther sizer. It is

:28:46.:28:53.

only getting away with it. It is not making things better. It is not

:28:53.:28:58.

really adding true emotion. It is not really connecting the audience

:28:58.:29:04.

to the emotion that a musician, you know, the great craftsmanship and

:29:04.:29:08.

art that a musician brings to something. Is there something you

:29:08.:29:14.

like more than other? Do you like darker films? I have been thinking

:29:14.:29:19.

about this. Everybody is the internal angst and thaw stuff. Every

:29:19.:29:24.

character -- and all that stuff. Every character... What about a good

:29:24.:29:32.

rom com? I have - look I have done a lot of rom comes. The idea that, for

:29:32.:29:37.

instance, that in the '70s, when you have the space programme, we look

:29:37.:29:42.

out to the stars. We would, we would see some sort of a future that was

:29:42.:29:53.

beyond our own little miserable analysed self. It is just the idea

:29:53.:29:58.

that maybe it is time to reinvent some of this stuff and just look

:29:58.:30:03.

outwards a bit more. Aren't we a little bored with our own paranoia.

:30:03.:30:08.

Aren't people just a little bored with it? A great, big beautiful

:30:08.:30:14.

world out there, if you just look at it.

:30:14.:30:18.

The great Hans Zimmer. Let me take you through the front-pages of

:30:18.:30:27.

Saturday's papers. The Times has Briton's behind terror group's bid

:30:27.:30:32.

to wage chemical war. Fears that Al-Qaeda will use them on

:30:32.:30:37.

western targets N the Guardian, we have hunt on commission course as he

:30:37.:30:42.

says no to NHS pay rises. Ministers sparked a new confrontation by

:30:42.:30:48.

trying to derail a pay rise. The Daily Mirror has - "we tried to kill

:30:48.:30:55.

Harry many times." FT, 75% of new vehicles bought with

:30:55.:31:02.

loans. In New York, the subway expansion

:31:02.:31:06.

project has moved with the times and dispensed with the City's legendary

:31:06.:31:13.

side walk ventilation greats, immortalised by 20th Century Fox in

:31:13.:31:20.

the Seven Year Itch.

:31:20.:31:23.

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