04/10/2013 Newsnight

It is some sort of non- nonverbal language of ourure.

They crossed war-torn Somalia and a desert. They were half a mile away

from shore, the island of lap launch. Today, the death toll of

those killed off the tiny island stands at 100. There are warnings it

will rise significantly. The it Italian Prime Minister has declared

the tragedy one for the whole continent. Tonight Tim Whewell

reports on the migrants' journey on what keeps going wrong. Now, deep

under water, the ramshackle boat that was a death trap for so many

seeking a better life in Europe. Rescued from the sea and more than

150 of the migrants, mainly eerie trayians and some Malis who set off

from the coast. More bodies are being brought ashore to the tiny

island, far more than they have coffins for. Less than 200 miles to

the south, the Libyan shore, where the migrants began their journey,

the Libyan economy depends on workers from sub Saharan Africa.

Hundreds of thousands live here, although few are given official

papers. Some are happy to stay, but many want to move on further north.

This man came 13 years ago. He came to work as a security guard. He has

not seen his family since. Most want to go to Europe. They come to here.

They find jobs that get more money, to take the risk from the sea and go

to Europe. He tried and failed three times to go to Italy. They catch

everybody. Who caught you? Soldiers. Libyan

soldiers? Libyan soldiers. What happened? Libyan soldiers, they have

to see us from there, from the sea. They came to arrest everybody. Libya

is one of the main transit countries for economic migrants and those

escaping conflict further south. They enter across the open borders

and try and reach Europe from the long Mediterranean coastline. So

far, this year, 19, 400 migrants have reached Italy from Libya. More

than half of those, 10, 300, since the beginning of August. European

diplomats believe there are 20,000 more waiting to cross from Libya.

Newsnight understands from European diplomatic sources that Libya has

only about 20 Naval vessels to patrol the 11-00 -- 1100-mile

coastline. There are equally few resources to police the long desert

borders in the south. There, illegal immigrants are often rounded up by

armed groups linked to smuggling gangs. Libya's Defence Minister

promises a new surveillance system to guard the southern borders within

two years and controls on the coast too.

TRANSLATION: However many ships you have, you cannot control illegal

immigration, unless you control the shores. We are trying to find a

system to protect the beaches. A system based on informants, on men

working secretly to find smugglers. But that is an ambitious plan for a

country still in a state of anarchy after the overthrow of Muammar

Gaddafi. Even western diplomats don't expect

much from Libya at this stage. There'll have to be more

recognition, they say, that stopping the smuggling that caused this

tragedy must be a pan-European and not just an Italian task. Tim

Whewell. Well, the word disgraced comes to mind said the Pope of this

tragedy. When I speak to the UN UN Special Rapporteur I asked him whose

disgrace it was. I would say it is a disgrace for the states that create

the migration policies that result in those deaths. It is also a

disgrace for the people who provide these migrants with non-sea worthy

vessels. It is a disgrace, the whole picture. Everybody has a

responsibility. Migrants have a responsibility as well. Often they

don't know anything about what will happen to them. I guess you could

say that the pull factor is just the EU. That is the magnet for all these

people. The magnet is not the EU itself. The magnet is that they have

family or friends inside the EU who tell them, I'll find you a job.

Because there are jobs. These people in the E U, especially migrants,

they are not on welfare. In most countries they don't have access to

welfare payments or things like that. They all work. They work in

restaurants n the hospitality industry, in agriculture... They

work - they are employed by employers, local employers. What is

the solution then? You will not stop all these kind of industries using

migrant workforce? I am calling for political courage and leadership to

recognise that we need migrants and to create the kind of public

discourse that says that limiting migration is not the way to go for

the future. We have to recognise the needs for migrants at all, in all

categories, including low-skilled migrants. We will need them to

perform all the tasks that we don't want to perform at a certain cost.

So, you are saying open our borders then? Open our borders to these

people? No. Not open the borders, but create legal channels for

migration, much more, many more legal channels for migration,

including for low-skilled workers, because we need them. If we do that,

we are going to reduce, probably never eradicate, but reduce the

number of people who have to use smugglers to move. We are going to

reduce the number of deaths at sea or in deserts. We will reduce the

vulnerability of those migrants who suffer terrible fates while en route

towards our countries. We are too tough at the moment? At the moment I

think that countries are voluntarily not discussing the issue of the

labour needs for the next 20-40 years. I think there is sort of a

political consensus to not discuss this because it is a toxic issue at

electoral level. We have run out of time, but thank you for your time

this evening. Thank you. Goodbye. We talk to the film composer Hans

Zimmer. The director of a private company

with a lucrative contract to train apprentices at Morrisons has

resigned. Elmfield Training has been given more than £100,000 of

taxpayers' money over the past three years. Tonight, we hear from two

former employees with who had to change documents to boost the amount

of money the company could claim. What is the connection between this

luxury house, this apprenticeship scheme and this rich businessman?

Answer - you, the taxpayer helped to pay for them. How? Well, it all

started with an ambition training programme at Morrisons, backed by

the Government which was outsource tods a private company -- outsourced

to a private company called Elmfield. A staggering four in ten

of all Morrisons staff were Elmfield. A staggering four in ten

apparently apprentices. These were no ordinary apprentices recruited

fresh from school. Most worked for MORI sons and were over 20 -- for

Morrisons and were over 25. There seemed to be very little job

training involved. This man was sceptical at the time.

It was really very unrealistic to do a high-quality programme with that

volume and under the pressure of a high-quality programme with that

that speed, really, bearing in mind the staffing requirements and the

time away from the shop floor which should have been needed were they to

be quality apprenticeships. In the first Year of the Contract Elmfield

made a £12 million profit. £3 million went to the chief executive.

He was grilled by a Government Select Committee 18 months ago. How

much of that £12 million was Government money? It was all

Government money. I think that much money money made

out of a business of your kind is a rippoff. Now we can reveal, unknown

to Morrison, what was going on behind the scenes. Two former

assessors for elms field have told Newsnight they were routinely asked

to change documents to claim Government funding for Morrisons'

staff. Staff who never wanted to be apprentices. Their claims are backed

up by an e-mail trail spanning two years, written by a number of senior

managers, like this one from January, 2011.

What I took from it was everybody was to be signed up as an

apprentice, regardless of whether was to be signed up as an

they wanted to do it or not. Many Morrisons staff didn't want to do

the English or maths required to complete an apprenticeship. This was

the e-mail instruction to assessors. It warns that the full words should

not be entered on to the paperwork. On this file then, what does the D

stand for? That stands for declined F the learner didn't want to do --.

If the learner didn't want to do it, then we would put D, for declined.

So the money is claimed for them to do an apprenticeship, but you know

they don't want to do it? Yes. What do you think of that? It is an

abuse. The learner shouldn't have been signed up at all. If the

funding is there to deliver the main qualification that it was not

suitable for them. Each apprenticeship was worth £1300 to

Elmfield. By March, 2012, the number not completing the apprenticeship

was becoming a problem. Elmfield were enrolling employees on

these qualifications, knowing they had declined to do them. That is not

allowed. It is as serious as the learner not even existing in the

circumstances where a qualification is not being delivered.

We showed the internal e-mails to the chair of the Select Committee

that grilled Elmfield's chief the chair of the Select Committee

executive 18 months ago. I was astonished to see it. Horrified. I

really regret we did not have that e-mail trail prior to the committee

inquiry. If we had, then we could really put the chief executive of

inquiry. If we had, then we could Elmfield on the spot, the minister

on the spot and the skills funding agency on the spot. You cannot help

but feel there is a political agenda here. Drive up numbers of

apprenticeships. Don't check too close about the quality. Don't be

too concerned about the amount of money ploughed into them. The

warning bells that something was not right were ringing 18 months ago.

Yet, the Government continued to pour millions of pounds of public

money into its training for Morrisons. No-one thought to look

behind the scenes until a recent routine Ofsted inspection. The

training furore sons got the lowest score of four. Inadequate. Its

apprenticeship pass rate was unacceptably low.

Morrisons stopped using Elmfield for training in August. The owner

resigned as a director - the same day we presented our evidence. The

new board of directors told Newsnight they have launched a

review. The skills funding agency says it is

currently investigating allegations against Elmfield. The company is not

allowed to take on any new business for the moment. But Elmfield has

already earned more than £60 million from Morrisons apprentices. Half of

already earned more than £60 million whom never completed the course.

What has become of all that taxpayers' cash? The company used

some to buy expensive houses like this one and this one - home to Mr

Syddall's daughter. He says she pays full market rent. He lives next door

and took a dividend of £1 million in 2012, the same year his -- company

said it had a loss. Shouldn't the Government scrutinise whether this

was taxpayers' money well spent? We asked if a minister from the

department of business could join us to discuss this, but no-one was

available this evening. After Ed Miliband's conference address last

week, the joke doing the rounds from those on the right is he had given

the longest suicide speech in history. It with us a reference to

the 1983 Labour manifesto, to which they claimed he had just returned.

The starting gun for the general election is now fired. The question

for the next 18 months is this - has a real ideological divide opened up

between the two main parties? Is Labour really lookingback wards? It

will bring a freeze... Ed Miliband standing by his vow to freeze energy

bills. When he insisted last week that if they won the election this

would be the case, it wasn't just the big six firms whose backs he got

up. The Daily Mail decided that Ed was getting too red, inferring he

might have been influenced by his late father, who they claimed hated

Britain. There has been disillusionment from. Lord

Sainsbury's who gave in the Brown and Blar years stopped in 2010. He

referred to Ed Miliband as "average." He a argues a 70s type of

socialism, which critics claim they "average." He a argues a 70s type of

cling on to doesn't work, nor does the liberalism which dominated the

thinking of Thatcher and Reagan. Well Lord Sainsbury is with me now,

joined by Fraser Nelson, the editor of The Spectator. Talk us through

progressive capitalism. How is it different to what we have seen

before? It is different. It is based on really a belief in capitalism. It

says, if capitalism is going to work, there have to be rules and

regulations about how it happens. There have to be institutions. And

the state or the Government has to set those rules and regulations

because they deal with conflicting interests. Wasn't that what we saw

under new Labour? I think we didn't see enough of that. We were actually

very persuaded by this sort of laissez-faire capitalism. We saw it

over that particular period. We didn't give enough attention to the

areas where we should have had regulation. As a result of that, we

missed the fact that there were some very serious failures taking place

in capitalism. That is how things went so badly wrong in 2008? Not

quite. It was not so much too much went so badly wrong in 2008? Not

regulation, it was the wrong sort of regulation, fractured. Wrong touch

rather than hard touch. The problem, of course, now is that we need to

get back to something whereby Government regulates properly. Right

now Lord Sainsburies is arguing for more -- Lord Sainsbury is arguing

for more. It is a blueprint for what Ed Miliband wants to believe. Has he

read this? I don't know. I sent a copy. You talk about the race to the

bottom. No, a race to the top. It is very important. It is the race to

the top, not to the bottom. This thing of, it was the fault of the

regulators - this is nonsense. Take the situation with the banks. The

banks were running the banks on an absurd basis. First of all, they had

not got enough equity. Secondly, they made their balance sheets look

very goodbye taking things off the balance sheet. Does Fraser think

this is the way that capitalism balance sheet. Does Fraser think

should run? Should the state actually take some interest in

making sure these things don't happen? Let me take a very current

significant problem - energy prices - the cost of living. We heard the

remedy that Ed Miliband is proposing. How would progressive

capitalism work on that? I am not here as an apologise for Ed

Miliband. I don't think any... How do you apply your philosophy to a

practical solution? I think you do have to have, in areas where it is

doubtful there is proper competition taking place, you do need to have

some kind of regulation by a body like Ofgem and that we have Ofgem

and the question is, how it works and whether that is a good thing.

Ofgem, incidentally, was set up by and whether that is a good thing.

Mrs Thatcher. When I came into Government it was regulating the

energy situation very carefully. There was something called re tal

prices less 1%. That was the There was something called re tal

regulation of the market. Do you believe that the big six need

regulation? Well, of course they do. Absolutely. I am not a market

fundamentalist nor is anybody else. If you want to make electricity

cheaper, then takeaway all the green taxes that are now embedded in them.

That is a problem the Government has been using the Energy Bills to do

the brunt of its taxation work for all of these windmills and what have

you. You can reduce energy bills simply by not... By getting rid of

the windmills and what have you. That was a perfect example of

the windmills and what have you. progressive capitalism. It says, we

believe in capitalism, but you have to have some rules and regulations

about how things work, particularly in cases where it's not a really

good competitive market. So, I mean we probably agree. Let's take, for

example, the potential of a house housing bubble. What would be the

solutions that your book, that progressive capitalism would impose

on that? My book is not greatly about macro-economics. It is about

how markets work. The question there is a different one, it is about

macro-economics and the question is - is it a sensible thing to do to

try and get growth by pouring money into the economy? Would you

intervene in that situation? There's no question of intervening, there is

intervention taking place. The Bank of England is pouring money into the

economy. The question is - is that a sensible economic policy? I think he

is being hard in his own book. He suggests that the problem last time

was too much cheap debt. We are seeing the same now. There shouldn't

be. You are asking for trouble. One other thing is an end to big donor

culture. You have suggested a cap of £10,000. Many will look at you and

say this man has donated £15 million £10,000. Many will look at you and

to Labour. Could you see yourself donating to Labour in the future,

particularly if the unions pull out? Well, I have said, very clearly,

that I'm not really in the business at the moment of supporting

political parties. I have two jobs, one as Chancellor of dame bridge and

the other is I chair the institute of Government. Both these parties, I

think it is much easier if I am not seen to be... Is that no to the next

election for Labour? It is a no to any political party because I don't

want to get involved in politics in the situation where I need to be

seen to be independent. And I guess this week could have been dominated

by discussion of the ideological water starting to open up between

the two leaders. Instead it has been dominated by Ed Miliband and the

Mail. Was he right to wade in, do you think? He is entitled to

complain as any reader of a newspaper. It is a shame because it

has taken the discussion away from what I think is a hugely interesting

intellectual space he's opened with the Tories. You quite like what he

has to say - he's your kind of guy. Was he right to wade in? Yes. I

think what the Daily Mail did was extremely distasteful. I don't think

anyone is supporting it. And if someone attacked my father on a

totally wrong reason, I would speak out as well. I think most people in

the country share that view. Thank you both very much.

From Thelma and Louise, The Dark Knight to Rush, Hans Zimmer has

scored more than 100 films. He can create the atmosphere with a

singlevy lin note or the extraordinary drumming by 12 of the

best session drummers as in Man of Steel. He had two weeks of piano

lessons and was involved in the first ever music video on MTV, radio

killed the video star. -- video kil d Video Killed the

Radio Star. They tell me the story. I sit there

and try and come up with the thing that they cannot think.

That's the job. Your job is to surprise them.

He has scored sound track after sound track for a generation. He was

recognised by his peers and then rewarded them with a familiar sound

from Inception. Not one, but two more awards. Your

shelves are groaning now! Obviously your lack of formal musical

education has not held you back? No it has not held me back. If

anything, I was thinking about this last night, it sort of helped - I am

not set in my style. I am not trying to develop my style. I go, oh, this

is interesting. Let's go over here and make a record with this. Let's

go to a foreign country and figure something out here. I think it is

actually, I'm not stuck in trying to be Hans Zimmer. Do you ever feel the

lack of being able to play? Do you feel yourself as being an enabler

who allows others to play? That is the point. You use the word twice -

play is the operative word. Playfulness, playing. Getting people

involved. The notes are just, you know, some architectural instruction

manual. You go up, you go down, whatever. To actually give them

purpose, to give them context, that comes from the music. You obviously

love musicians. There is a wonderful footage from Man of Steel of the 12

drummers - the best session musicians.

It was so easy. Williams, who is the busiest human being on earth, lives

in Miami, I gots Jason to come from Miami. I said, come on, you have to

be part of it. He not only gives people what they want. He gives

people something they didn't realise they need. That is because it is his

mentality to always overgive and really dive i.

You do so many films It is my heart and soul. It is my heart and soul

because I love doing it. I get excited when somebody comes along

and they show you some images and they have an idea and they are

excited. You pay tribute to musicians, because you say, what

would you be without the musicians? Vy suspicion as well. This is my

suspicion, that the idea of a symphony orchestra or an orchestra

or string quartet, or whatever, that is more than music, it is some sort

of non- nonverbal language cornerstone of our culture.

If we lose that, we will lose something far beyond just the music.

That is my gripe with the BBC - with all television stations. They all

go, oh, well, you can do it in your bedroom on a sin ther sizer. It is

only getting away with it. It is not making things better. It is not

really adding true emotion. It is not really connecting the audience

to the emotion that a musician, you know, the great craftsmanship and

art that a musician brings to something. Is there something you

like more than other? Do you like darker films? I have been thinking

about this. Everybody is the internal angst and thaw stuff. Every

character -- and all that stuff. Every character... What about a good

rom com? I have - look I have done a lot of rom comes. The idea that, for

instance, that in the '70s, when you have the space programme, we look

out to the stars. We would, we would see some sort of a future that was

beyond our own little miserable analysed self. It is just the idea

that maybe it is time to reinvent some of this stuff and just look

outwards a bit more. Aren't we a little bored with our own paranoia.

Aren't people just a little bored with it? A great, big beautiful

world out there, if you just look at it.

The great Hans Zimmer. Let me take you through the front-pages of

Saturday's papers. The Times has Briton's behind terror group's bid

to wage chemical war. Fears that Al-Qaeda will use them on

western targets N the Guardian, we have hunt on commission course as he

says no to NHS pay rises. Ministers sparked a new confrontation by

trying to derail a pay rise. The Daily Mirror has - "we tried to kill

Harry many times." FT, 75% of new vehicles bought with

loans. In New York, the subway expansion

project has moved with the times and dispensed with the City's legendary

side walk ventilation greats, immortalised by 20th Century Fox in

the Seven Year Itch.