07/10/2013 Newsnight


07/10/2013

A Newsnight exclusive. Plus, the Afghan President on our failure. Five years after the crash. The care minister meets the house bound pensioner.


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Transcript


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Whose version of press regulation will get the nod? The one the press

:00:06.:00:14.

wants or the one Parliament wants? We have learned the press's prose

:00:14.:00:18.

posals for outside regulation have been binned. The newspapers are on a

:00:18.:00:22.

collision course with politicians. Over 400 dead British soldiers and

:00:22.:00:27.

over £30 billion spent and countless civilians killed.

:00:27.:00:37.

What has the West achieved in our 12 year war in Afghanistan? The Afghan

:00:37.:00:40.

president gives Newsnight his verdict The world's biggest

:00:40.:00:41.

container ship. It cost Afghanistan a lot of

:00:41.:00:44.

suffering and a lot of loss of life. And no gains because the country is

:00:44.:00:52.

not secure. 83-year-old Sally Lubanov has not

:00:52.:00:55.

left her home for the last nine months. We bring her into the studio

:00:55.:01:00.

to face the minister in charge of her care.

:01:00.:01:03.

And the world's biggest container ship, if you stacked up its cargo,

:01:03.:01:09.

would reach into orbit, but what's the point? There is no port in North

:01:09.:01:15.

America could accommodate this ship, so how can it make economic sense?

:01:15.:01:25.

A dramatic development tonight on an issue that has at the its heart the

:01:25.:01:30.

freedom and the responsibilities of the press. We have learnt of a move

:01:30.:01:34.

that he emerged from the discussions within the group will decide the

:01:34.:01:38.

future of press regulation later this week. Senior Conservatives and

:01:38.:01:43.

Lib Dem figures have rejected the press's favoured solution, their

:01:43.:01:47.

alternative version of a charter. The decision looks set to spark

:01:47.:01:52.

confrontation between the two sides on a complex and fractious issue.

:01:52.:01:57.

Allegra Stratton has brought us the story and joins us now. The

:01:57.:02:02.

presenter of the Media Show is here too. Let's start at the beginning

:02:02.:02:08.

because this is complicated. Talk us through what we have learned today?

:02:08.:02:14.

It has been difficult journalism. A subcommittee of the Privy Council

:02:14.:02:19.

met today. This was six to eight Cabinet Ministers from Conservative

:02:19.:02:22.

and Liberal Democrat side of the coalition and what they were looking

:02:22.:02:27.

at was the newspapers, the press's own position on what they felt was a

:02:27.:02:31.

kind of media regulation that they could deal with and we have winkled

:02:31.:02:43.

it out. The privy council is answerable to the Queen. All my

:02:43.:02:46.

sources didn't want to talk to me about this. We think we have got

:02:46.:02:50.

somewhere. They have rejected it. They have said that what the press

:02:50.:02:56.

wants, does not, in the words of one senior source, it doesn't enshrine

:02:56.:03:00.

independence. The people on this new regulatory body that the press want,

:03:00.:03:04.

as opposed to the one that the Government and some other people

:03:04.:03:06.

want, it doesn't have independence in it. So it wouldn't really be much

:03:06.:03:13.

of a regulatory body. So they have had to reject it. Some of the quotes

:03:13.:03:16.

we have. It has to be properly independent. That's what Lord

:03:16.:03:20.

Leveson wanted. What they are coming up doesn't meet the test. Some of

:03:20.:03:27.

this doesn't come as a surprise for people, but it is, we expected this

:03:27.:03:31.

meeting this week and so we will hear from newspapers how they are

:03:31.:03:35.

going to react. And we are expecting this to be a major blow for the

:03:35.:03:40.

newspapers. The Leveson report was coming up to a year ago. Fill in the

:03:40.:03:43.

background. Because this is something we talk about, but it

:03:43.:03:48.

leaves a lot of people far behind. What doesn't leave people far behind

:03:48.:03:51.

is the principle of free speech in this country. It is something that

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many people feel is about being British. It is something that many

:03:54.:03:57.

other countries have said with horror, I can't believe Britain

:03:57.:04:02.

would move to this. A lot of people think about it like that. I don't

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think it is true to say this is alien from people's lives when they

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are sitting in their sitting room. The technical nature of it is. What

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people should take home from this, all of Her Majesty's newspapers do

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not want this. All of them will be upset this evening. All of them feel

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this is a process, Steve will tell us more, it is a process that's

:04:25.:04:29.

supposed to be about transparency and they have been kept in the dark.

:04:29.:04:35.

We have this Privy Council. There will be ranker, but lots of

:04:35.:04:38.

principle at stake. The words that David Cameron used

:04:38.:04:43.

last week, does it pass the Dowler test? Talking about the mistreated

:04:43.:04:49.

family of Milly Dowler. What do you think the response from the industry

:04:49.:04:53.

will be to this, Steve? Look, I think, in terms of what is going on

:04:53.:05:01.

down the Dog and Duck, there is the Dowlers and the McCanns and the

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shocking treatment handed out to Christopher Jefferies. The press is

:05:06.:05:10.

in the dock really. So where do the press feel now? They feel the

:05:10.:05:13.

process has been far from transparent. They are, I think,

:05:13.:05:18.

people that I have spoken to are, furious and are now considering

:05:18.:05:22.

whether there might be a legal challenge to this decision by the

:05:22.:05:26.

committee, the Privy Council. The reason they had to do this, the

:05:26.:05:30.

privy council's own rules say if there is more than one proposed

:05:30.:05:34.

charter on the same subject, neither can be given effect because it draws

:05:34.:05:38.

the Queen into a matter of public controversy. So in general, and

:05:38.:05:42.

previous things that the Privy Council deals worthwhile Royal

:05:43.:05:46.

Charters are uncontroversial. There is also talk in some quarters

:05:46.:05:52.

amongst the press that the Royal Household might now obstruct the

:05:52.:05:57.

progress of the cross party charter because it is so controversial. The

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last thing they want is the Queen to put her name and her stamp on

:06:01.:06:06.

something which is going to be ranker are yous for a long time.

:06:06.:06:11.

What we are understanding tonight is the solution, the press offered if

:06:11.:06:15.

you like, has not been deemed acceptable? Yes, it has been

:06:15.:06:21.

rejected. What will they do in practical terms? They can consider a

:06:21.:06:24.

legal challenge to the process. I am not a lawyer, but I have been

:06:24.:06:27.

talking to lawyers and nobody knows how you do this. They could consider

:06:27.:06:32.

a legal challenge or choose to go along with it or this is most

:06:32.:06:38.

likely, but the thing is that this is all about establishing a body to

:06:38.:06:45.

give recognition to the new self regulator that Lord Leveson said

:06:45.:06:49.

should exist. He said there is an outrage, there is a committee, there

:06:49.:06:53.

is a decision to sort the press out. Nothing happens. There is a

:06:53.:06:56.

committee, there is a decision to sort it out. To stop this happening,

:06:56.:07:01.

we will put in place a recognition system. Put this in context for us.

:07:01.:07:06.

Because we have had The Mail and Daily Mail on the programme last

:07:06.:07:09.

week and we have had the row with the Labour and Ed Miliband, where

:07:09.:07:14.

does this sit-in that? In terms of timing, you saw the impact of the

:07:15.:07:21.

Miliband thing. Look what is coming. On 28th October, the first of the

:07:21.:07:27.

big trial, the phone hacking trial starts, Andy Coulson and Rebekah

:07:27.:07:33.

Brooks. That won't be pretty. Trials will run on phone hacking and other

:07:33.:07:38.

things well up to the next election. Once we get into that process, the

:07:38.:07:44.

things well up to the next election. atmospherics for the press will be

:07:44.:07:46.

dreadful. If you were a press tactician you might think better of

:07:46.:07:50.

trying to do a deal sooner rather than later.

:07:50.:07:53.

We will return to this story when we have more reaction to it.

:07:53.:07:57.

Should the Taliban have a place at the centre of a future Afghan

:07:57.:08:03.

Government? The question would have seen absurd five years ago. Today,

:08:03.:08:07.

Hamid Karzai told this programme he was talking to the Taliban and would

:08:07.:08:11.

welcome them into any power sharing deal, including direct Government

:08:11.:08:14.

jobs. The Americans stated that they will not fight the Taliban anymore.

:08:14.:08:21.

Only Al-Qaeda. Has the enemy's enemy now become a friend? And where does

:08:21.:08:29.

that he leave the reasons we were given for fighting in that country?

:08:29.:08:36.

Afghanistan has come a long way from 2001. From the almost premodern days

:08:36.:08:44.

of the Taliban. But it cost hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of

:08:44.:08:49.

thousands killed and injured. And as the Afghans argue with Americans

:08:49.:08:56.

about a security agreement, to define post-war relations, its

:08:56.:08:59.

president continues to be an ally one day and an opponent the next.

:08:59.:09:03.

Hamid Karzai had troubled relationships with his western

:09:03.:09:07.

backers. Whether fighting the Taliban or nati building, he often

:09:07.:09:15.

had different objectives. What does he really think about the United

:09:15.:09:20.

States? The Taliban, of Britain's war in Helmand province? Is he

:09:20.:09:23.

bothered by the levels of corruption here? Who are by women's rights? In

:09:23.:09:29.

one of his last major interviews, Hamid Karzai has agreed to speak to

:09:29.:09:33.

Newsnight. There is no doubt that the country

:09:33.:09:37.

has grown, and developed and come a long way in the last 12 years. Why

:09:37.:09:43.

then do it the Americans, President Obama, call you an unreliable,

:09:43.:09:50.

ineffective partner? Because where we want us to go along, we don't go

:09:50.:09:56.

along. They want us to keep silent when civilians are killed. We will

:09:56.:10:00.

not. We cannot. Isn't it the case that your

:10:00.:10:03.

relationship with President Bush was better than your relationship with

:10:03.:10:09.

Obama? His main focus has been the exit strategy? How has that been for

:10:09.:10:14.

you? I had a good relationship with President Bush and those beginning

:10:14.:10:20.

years, there was not much difference of opinion between us. The worsening

:10:20.:10:27.

of relations began actually in 2005 where we saw the first incidents of

:10:27.:10:35.

civilian casualties, where we saw that the War on Terror was not

:10:35.:10:40.

conducted where it should have been, which was in the sanctuaries, in the

:10:41.:10:44.

trading grounds beyond Afghanistan rather than that, the US and NATO

:10:44.:10:46.

forces were conducting operations in rather than that, the US and NATO

:10:46.:10:52.

Afghan villages, causing injuries to hundreds of Afghan people.

:10:52.:10:53.

Are you talking to the Taliban? Yes, hundreds of Afghan people.

:10:53.:10:59.

we are. We have our whole system engaged in several direction to

:10:59.:11:02.

bring stability and peace to Afghanistan.

:11:02.:11:06.

Is the goal to bring them into some kind of power sharing deal in

:11:06.:11:10.

Government? Absolutely. They are Afghans. Where the Afghan president,

:11:10.:11:16.

where the Afghan Government can appoint the Taliban to a Government

:11:16.:11:26.

job, we will do that. But when it is the Afghan people appointing people

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through elections then the Taliban should come and participate in

:11:30.:11:37.

elections. To clarify this, as Afghans, they are welcome to the

:11:37.:11:40.

Afghan Government like all other Afghans, yes. As Afghans, they are

:11:40.:11:46.

welcome to participate in elections. A British audience or an American

:11:46.:11:50.

audience watching this would wonder what was this for then? 12 years of

:11:50.:11:55.

fighting, lives lost and the Taliban will walk in and be part of

:11:55.:11:58.

Government? Well, the Americans have told us themselves in Washington in

:11:58.:12:04.

my last visit that the Taliban are not their enemies. That they will

:12:04.:12:09.

not fight the Taliban anymore. What are you discussing with the

:12:09.:12:14.

Taliban? What's up for negotiation? What's at stake? If the Taliban have

:12:14.:12:18.

reasons for which they cannot come, they must spell it out. If it is the

:12:18.:12:22.

Afghan constitution, they must come and talk to us and allow the Afghan

:12:23.:12:28.

people and through the mechanisms that we have to amend the

:12:28.:12:31.

constitution. The gains that women made in this

:12:31.:12:37.

country are tenuous, surely by bringing the Taliban back, you are

:12:37.:12:42.

compromising those gains? This country needs to have peace. You

:12:42.:12:46.

know where they stand with women's rights. Are you willing to sacrifice

:12:46.:12:50.

women's rights? I am willing to stand for anything that would bring

:12:50.:12:56.

peace to Afghanistan and through that, to promote the cause of the

:12:56.:13:01.

Afghan woman better. There is no doubt about that, even

:13:01.:13:04.

if the Taliban come, that will not end. That will not slow down.

:13:05.:13:09.

So women in Afghanistan should not have the fear of a return of the

:13:09.:13:15.

Taliban? None at all. None. The bilateral security agreement, Mr

:13:15.:13:18.

President, let's talk about that. That defines the US and

:13:18.:13:23.

Afghanistan's relationship beyond withdrawal and if you push too hard,

:13:23.:13:28.

they may not stay. Is that something that worries you? Well, if the

:13:28.:13:34.

agreement doesn't suit us then, of course, they can leave. The

:13:34.:13:40.

agreement has to suit Afghanistan's interests and purposes. If it

:13:40.:13:48.

doesn't suit us, and if it doesn't suit them, we will go our separate

:13:48.:13:52.

ways. If this agreement does not provide Afghanistan with peace and

:13:52.:13:55.

security, the Afghans will not want it. That's very clear. Britain has

:13:55.:14:01.

made a massive contribution already. Can you tell the British public, you

:14:01.:14:07.

know, what all their sacrifices were force? They don't understand why

:14:07.:14:11.

they are still here? All the Prime Ministers that came were in office

:14:11.:14:15.

in the past 12 years have clearly staitds that they are here in

:14:16.:14:20.

Afghanistan in order to provide security to the West and in order to

:14:20.:14:23.

prevent terrorism from reaching the West and in order to fight extremism

:14:23.:14:33.

here. How much of that has been achieved is something that the

:14:33.:14:36.

British Government can answer alone. Can you assess the criticism and

:14:36.:14:38.

failings that were experienced in Can you assess the criticism and

:14:38.:14:41.

Helmand province? It is not only Britain. On security front, the

:14:42.:14:49.

entire NATO exercise was one that caused Afghanistan a lot of

:14:49.:14:55.

suffering. And a lot of loss of life. And no gains because the

:14:55.:15:02.

country is not secure. I'm not happy to say that, well, there is partial

:15:02.:15:05.

security. That's not what we are seeking. What we wanted was absolute

:15:05.:15:15.

security and a clear cut against terrorism.

:15:15.:15:18.

Some people would say that your legacy has been tainted by the

:15:18.:15:21.

corruption in this country. That Afghanistan is the third most

:15:21.:15:26.

corrupt country in the world. Is that a legacy you want to leave

:15:26.:15:31.

behind? No, not at all, of course. Se. Our Government is weak and

:15:31.:15:37.

ineffective in comparison to other governments. We have just begun. But

:15:37.:15:44.

the big corruption, the hundreds of millions of dollars of corruption,

:15:44.:15:47.

it was not Afghan. Now everybody millions of dollars of corruption,

:15:47.:15:52.

knows that. It was foreign. The contracts. The sub contracts. The

:15:53.:16:00.

blind contracts given to people. Money thrown around to buy

:16:00.:16:08.

loyalties. Money thrown around to buy submissiveness of Afghan

:16:08.:16:11.

Government officials to policies and designs that the Afghans would not

:16:11.:16:15.

have agreed to. That was the major part of corruption.

:16:15.:16:17.

Finally, are you concerned about your safety when you leave office?

:16:17.:16:26.

Not at all, no. No. I will be safe. President Karzai, thank you very

:16:26.:16:31.

much for your time. Thank you. Coming up:

:16:31.:16:35.

We hear from the global superstar, just signed up by the BBC.

:16:35.:16:41.

. Ago today, the Chairman of RBS made

:16:41.:16:44.

a phone call to the heart of Government. His bank, he told the

:16:44.:16:48.

Chancellor, Alistair Darling, would seize to exist within hours. The

:16:48.:16:53.

call prompted a flood of lek quitity to -- lick quite to prop up the

:16:53.:16:58.

dying organisation. Their aim was to keep it going until the close of the

:16:58.:17:00.

financial day. Five years on, where keep it going until the close of the

:17:00.:17:03.

are we? What lessons have we learned? We will ask Alistair

:17:03.:17:09.

Darling, first Iain Martin takes us through the critical hours of

:17:09.:17:10.

crisis. The Ritz Hotel in Central London. In

:17:10.:17:26.

the autumn of 2008, while the Savoy was shut for repair, this is where

:17:26.:17:31.

Sir Fred Goodwin stayed when he was in town.

:17:32.:17:36.

Shortly after 8am, having finished breakfast, Goodwin walked down these

:17:36.:17:42.

steps and got into his chauffeur driven Mercedes. He had an

:17:42.:17:46.

appointment on the other side of town. Talking to o fellow bankers.

:17:46.:17:52.

It was the beginning of an extraordinary day which would send

:17:53.:17:55.

shockwaves through the entire British economy.

:17:55.:18:07.

While Goodwin made his 8.45am presentation about the challenges

:18:07.:18:09.

facing the Royal Bank of Scotland, those in the audience could see on

:18:09.:18:11.

facing the Royal Bank of Scotland, their mobile phones what was

:18:11.:18:14.

happening as the markets opened. The RBS share price was collapsing. The

:18:14.:18:19.

first question from the floor caused the colour to drain from Goodwin's

:18:20.:18:23.

face. Did he know in the half-hour he had been on his feet talking,

:18:23.:18:28.

RBS's share price had been fallen by 25%?

:18:28.:18:34.

The sell off that morning was so frenetic the authorities at the

:18:34.:18:37.

London Stock Exchange suspended trading in RBS shares twice. The

:18:37.:18:43.

collapse in share price reflected reality. For months RBS had been

:18:43.:18:47.

leaking money as customers and investors rushed to take their cash

:18:47.:18:56.

out of -- troubled bank full of toxic assets. Now, with many fearing

:18:56.:19:01.

RBS was about to go bust, no one would lend the bank the tens of

:19:01.:19:02.

billions of pounds it needed to would lend the bank the tens of

:19:02.:19:06.

carry on functioning. Goodwin and his colleagues had built RBS into

:19:06.:19:11.

the world's biggest bank and here it was coming crashing down. In RBS's

:19:11.:19:16.

offices in London that day, there was panic. As good win raced across

:19:16.:19:22.

town, the bank's chairman called Gordon Brown to beg for Government

:19:22.:19:23.

help. He told the Chancellor, Gordon Brown to beg for Government

:19:23.:19:27.

Alistair Darling, that RBS could only keep going for a couple of

:19:27.:19:33.

hours. A desperate Chief Executive tried to calm the Chancellor. Inside

:19:33.:19:41.

the Treasury that often, they were scramling to prevent the meltdown of

:19:41.:19:45.

the financial system. For weeks, worried ministers and officials had

:19:45.:19:48.

been working out plans to bail out the banks, to pump tens of billions

:19:48.:19:53.

of new capital into RBS and the others. It was time to put the plans

:19:53.:19:58.

into action. Shortly after 7pm, Fred Goodwin and

:19:58.:20:01.

into action. the Chief Executives of Britain's

:20:02.:20:04.

other banks filed into Alistair Darling's office here at the

:20:04.:20:09.

Treasury. After hours of fractious talks, by 3am, they had a deal. Lord

:20:09.:20:19.

Myners who had been fired by Fred the sh Shred said, " You are in a

:20:19.:20:24.

bit of trouble." The next morning, on the 8th October, Brown and

:20:24.:20:31.

Darling held a press conference in Downing Street. Britain's reckless

:20:31.:20:35.

banks, so celebrated by the politicians into the good times

:20:35.:20:38.

would need £50 billion of taxpayer cash.

:20:38.:20:43.

It turned out to be even more than that. And the taxpayer would end up

:20:43.:20:48.

owning 82% of RBS. The crisis triggered the worst downturn in

:20:48.:20:53.

seven decades and a slide in living stansds that continues to this day.

:20:53.:20:56.

Boom and bust had not been abolished after all. How had it come to this?

:20:56.:21:02.

Why did the financial crisis hit Britain so hard? In 1960, the

:21:02.:21:09.

combined balance sheets of the UK's 16 clearing banks totalled £8

:21:09.:21:18.

billion. A sum equivalent to 32% of UK GDP. By 2000, it was 1.4 trillion

:21:18.:21:27.

and 143% of GDP. Around the time of the crisises is, the UK clearing

:21:27.:21:33.

banks had total assets of .24 trillion, that was 450% of UK GDP.

:21:33.:21:39.

There were fewer British banks and they had got bigger with RBS, the

:21:39.:21:43.

biggest of the lot. For Britain, having taken a large gamble on

:21:43.:21:45.

growing its banking industry, the having taken a large gamble on

:21:45.:21:50.

rescue was always going to be painful if something went wrong.

:21:50.:21:54.

Five years on, it is worth asking how much has really changed? Has our

:21:54.:21:59.

banking system been fixed? A bit. Are we any safer? A little. With

:21:59.:22:05.

property schemes such as help to buy popular again, could we be heading

:22:05.:22:09.

for another banking crisis? Don't bet against it.

:22:09.:22:14.

Well, that was Iain Martin. Well, I spoke to Alistair Darling and I

:22:14.:22:17.

asked him what this day meant to him now? Well, I will always remember

:22:18.:22:21.

the day when I received a call from the Chairman of RBS, this was the

:22:21.:22:25.

morning that their shares had been suspended, not just once, but twice

:22:25.:22:29.

by the London exchange and he said, we are haemorrhaging money and I

:22:29.:22:33.

said how long can you last? He said well, wither going to go bust this

:22:33.:22:37.

afternoon. This was the second, maybe the biggest bank in the world

:22:37.:22:40.

and it had run out of money and this was three weeks after Lehmans had

:22:40.:22:46.

collapsed and other banks were in trouble. This was the occasion when

:22:46.:22:50.

we knew that we would have to act and we had a matter of hours to stop

:22:50.:22:56.

the system from collapsing. And with cashpoints, you feared not

:22:56.:23:01.

working people not able to get money out, there are suggestions that

:23:01.:23:05.

Gordon Brown was ready to put troops on the streets. Was that really

:23:05.:23:09.

considered? No, it was never considered. I was never party to a

:23:09.:23:13.

discussion like that. What we did know, if you remember Northern Rock

:23:13.:23:18.

which had seen the run in the autumn of 2007, you saw people queuing up,

:23:18.:23:21.

which had seen the run in the autumn you know, desperate to get their

:23:21.:23:24.

money out. Almost panicking in a very British sort of way. They were

:23:24.:23:27.

good natured about it, but they wanted their money out. I knew if

:23:27.:23:31.

one of the biggest banks in the world closed its doors, if the cash

:23:31.:23:34.

machines were switched off, there would be panic. People would try and

:23:34.:23:38.

get their money out of all the banks in Britain and it would have spread

:23:38.:23:42.

to America and throughout Europe and the banking system could have

:23:42.:23:46.

collapsed. That would have had massive repercussions. Where are we

:23:46.:23:51.

now? Has there been enough reform? Would you feel safe saying this

:23:51.:23:55.

could not happen again? Well, you can never say it couldn't happen

:23:55.:24:00.

again. And the tragedy it is down the line when people who were around

:24:00.:24:05.

last time left the banks and there is the temptation for people to come

:24:05.:24:10.

to believe they can make money out of nothing. There is always that

:24:10.:24:14.

risk. The banks are in a better position now. We were recapitalised

:24:14.:24:17.

and they have to hold more capital as a buffer in case of failure. The

:24:17.:24:22.

regulators are more on to the fact of the connections between banks

:24:22.:24:26.

internationally. I still worry. I worry about the exposure of the

:24:26.:24:30.

European banks to the Spanish housing crisis. We are not out of

:24:30.:24:34.

woods with Greece and there is always the connections back into

:24:34.:24:37.

Europe there. So you know, there is more work to be done. But we are in

:24:37.:24:42.

a far better position than we were in 2008, but then if you look at

:24:42.:24:46.

2008, it is hard to imagine you could have been in a worse place.

:24:46.:24:50.

And in 2013, the taxpayer still owns RBS, who would have thought that? Do

:24:50.:24:54.

you think it is time to sell? I would have thought that. If you

:24:54.:24:57.

you think it is time to sell? I acquire a large bank, there was no

:24:57.:25:01.

way you could get rid of it inside five years frankly. We will get our

:25:01.:25:03.

money back provided the Government five years frankly. We will get our

:25:03.:25:08.

sell shares based on what's economically right. We have got our

:25:08.:25:12.

money back for a lot of the support systems put in place at that time.

:25:12.:25:15.

Many of them have been wound down. In terms of the shares, there is no

:25:15.:25:21.

reason why we shouldn't get our money back as long as the Government

:25:21.:25:24.

act sensibly. Tomorrow, wither going to see the

:25:24.:25:28.

second phase of help to buy launched. Is this something you

:25:28.:25:33.

would welcome? Well, look, I am in favour of helping first-time buyers

:25:33.:25:38.

and helping the housing market, but what I am worried is the risk is you

:25:38.:25:42.

create another bubble. When you think about it, the number of houses

:25:42.:25:45.

available for sale hasn't changed and if you put in a lot of cheap

:25:45.:25:50.

cash then what will happen, it will push up prices. The housing bubble

:25:50.:25:56.

that everybody dayed in 2007 -- said in 2007 and 2008, we must never let

:25:56.:26:01.

this happen again. Now it is a Government policy to flush money

:26:01.:26:04.

into the system and there is a risk therefore, that you get a there is a

:26:04.:26:08.

risk that people take on credit at low interest rates and find their

:26:08.:26:12.

mortgage repayments go up when interest rates go up and they will

:26:12.:26:16.

go up. Yes, I am worried about it and I'm not the only one.

:26:16.:26:20.

Ed Miliband made pledges to freeze energy bills if he wins the next

:26:20.:26:27.

election. Was he right to? Look, it it is not being antibusiness or

:26:27.:26:31.

anti-enterprise to stand up when there is market failure and I think

:26:31.:26:38.

on any view if you look at what is going on in the energy prices. After

:26:38.:26:42.

attacking him, the Tories backed off. They too can see a problem.

:26:42.:26:46.

They announced a bunch of things last week.

:26:46.:26:51.

Was he right to say a freeze? Enacting a freeze on prices. Of is

:26:51.:26:55.

that the right move? What he is proposing is a freeze for about 20

:26:55.:27:00.

months whilst the competitive problems or the lack of competition

:27:00.:27:03.

problems with the industry are sorted out. He is not suggesting an

:27:03.:27:08.

indefinite freeze, but what he is saying, there is a problem here and

:27:08.:27:12.

the problem needs to be fixed. Now that surely is what governments be

:27:12.:27:17.

are supposed to be doing. You featured a lot in Damien

:27:17.:27:23.

McBride's memoirs. He said you adopted an attitude of poor

:27:23.:27:27.

Alistair, who had to put up with so much and didn't get credit for his

:27:27.:27:32.

role in resolving the financial crisis? I said everything about that

:27:32.:27:37.

time in my book and I am not proposing to add anything to it.

:27:37.:27:41.

And do you and Gordon Brown reflect back on this time together? Is that

:27:41.:27:47.

something you talk with about with the then Prime Minister? At the

:27:47.:27:51.

moment, I am seriously engaged in Scotland at the moment. I am in

:27:51.:27:55.

Edinburgh tonight and that is really, you know, it is very well to

:27:55.:27:58.

look back and say what happened and so on. It is more important you look

:27:58.:28:01.

to the future. Do you ever talk to Gordon Brown?

:28:01.:28:05.

Look, I am happy to talk to you about what is happening now, I am

:28:05.:28:09.

not proposing to give you a running commentary on my social life.

:28:09.:28:12.

Alistair Darling, thank you very much.

:28:12.:28:14.

Thank you. 15 minutes, the length of time

:28:14.:28:18.

allowed for some home visits to a person with disabilities. The length

:28:18.:28:22.

of time in other words for them to choose between asking for help,

:28:22.:28:28.

getting into a bath or help eating a meal and not both. The Care Minister

:28:28.:28:35.

said he was unaware of the time limitations and he was proposing an

:28:35.:28:37.

amendment to the care Bill. Sally Lubanov is one of those who raised

:28:38.:28:42.

the frustrations of the short slot system. We will see her in

:28:42.:28:44.

discussion with the minister shortly. First, her story.

:28:44.:28:50.

Hello. Gosh, how nice to see you. Come on in. I can't turn around too

:28:50.:28:58.

quickly so it will take sometime. This is my drawing room. I have

:28:59.:29:05.

always done everything for myself. I never asked anyone for help. I have

:29:05.:29:09.

always done my decorating and anything that needed to be done,

:29:09.:29:13.

I've done it. Up until last year I just was

:29:13.:29:23.

allowing myself to die. Slowly dying. I didn't see any point. I

:29:23.:29:29.

didn't think about that. I didn't think that way, but I was. I

:29:29.:29:34.

realised just allowing myself to die. I would try and put myself

:29:35.:29:40.

outside myself which was what I have been able to do all my life and know

:29:40.:29:45.

that my body is in agony, but I'm OK. I will not allow this to take me

:29:45.:29:54.

over. Sugar. I will take it over and refuse to

:29:54.:29:59.

play host to it. I am in the middle of writing a book and this is where

:29:59.:30:05.

I spend most of my time because I can't sit with my legs hanging down

:30:05.:30:10.

for long. So when I have been sitting there for a little while or

:30:10.:30:13.

over there at the computer, I have to come back and put my feet and

:30:13.:30:17.

legs up. I don't sleep very much at night. If the career is coming in,

:30:17.:30:21.

either she goes and gets shopping for me, or she changes the bed or my

:30:21.:30:28.

feet and legs are supposed to be down every two or three day -- done

:30:28.:30:34.

every two or three days, but I suppose they have been done five or

:30:34.:30:37.

six times in the last few months which doesn't work very well.

:30:37.:30:41.

I haven't been out since last Christmas.

:30:41.:30:48.

That was the last time I was out. I'm going to London!

:30:48.:30:53.

Sally Lubanov left her home as you can see for the first time in ten

:30:53.:30:58.

months. She has kindly come into the studio to meet the Care Minister.

:30:58.:31:00.

months. She has kindly come into the Tell us about the last time you left

:31:00.:31:09.

home then. Not since Christmas? No. I haven't. No, I haven't been, I

:31:09.:31:16.

haven't been out since then mainly because I can't go by myself because

:31:16.:31:24.

I have, I now have vascular dementia which means I have to be careful

:31:24.:31:29.

where I go and have somebody I can hang on to which is why I have vast

:31:29.:31:31.

pieces of furniture over the house hang on to which is why I have vast

:31:31.:31:35.

which I can hang on to when I need to. So I can't go out on my own. And

:31:35.:31:44.

your visits are from care workers? Yes.

:31:44.:31:49.

And how do they work? I have had a friend did come to stay and the

:31:49.:31:54.

careers are supposed to be able to stay because I have a room for them

:31:54.:32:00.

to stay in my -- and my con stul tants -- con sum tants and --

:32:00.:32:05.

consultants and doctors said I need a career sometimes when I have been

:32:05.:32:11.

to the hospital and had tests and whatever. But the problem is that a

:32:11.:32:18.

person above my bedroom where the career would stay, because I stay in

:32:18.:32:25.

my art room as you saw, gets up at 3.30am and doesn't stop until 9am.

:32:25.:32:31.

And when you have a care worker visit, you have changed the

:32:31.:32:34.

timings... I have. But previously how did the time

:32:35.:32:39.

slots used to work? What could you get done? Nothing. Well, very

:32:39.:32:41.

little. There would be time for the get done? Nothing. Well, very

:32:41.:32:47.

girl to make a cup of tea. Well, I will tell you what happened. Half an

:32:47.:32:51.

hour is on the time sheet. It is written on the time sheet, half an

:32:51.:32:57.

hour. Well, they come in. They book in on the telephone which takes a

:32:57.:32:59.

few minutes. They then look at the in on the telephone which takes a

:32:59.:33:02.

book to see what the person who came before has written in the book. They

:33:02.:33:07.

then take off their coat and hat. They then put on their apron and

:33:07.:33:13.

their rubber gloves and then they say good morning. That's ten minutes

:33:13.:33:17.

gone. Right. So Norman Lamb, what would you say now to Sally Lubanov?

:33:17.:33:22.

Well, I think Sally, may I call you Sally? Yes, please.

:33:23.:33:27.

Is a perfect example of what is going on across our country. There

:33:27.:33:31.

is a sort of an epidemic of loneliness and this is not just

:33:31.:33:36.

about the formal care. Formal care is critical and there is a real

:33:36.:33:41.

problem with short visits and I have been given a time sheet by a care

:33:41.:33:47.

worker by just demonstrates an impossible schedule.

:33:47.:33:55.

It says 7.15 to 7.30 and the care worker would have had to get to

:33:55.:34:00.

another address. I mean is this news to you? No. I said I believed the

:34:00.:34:04.

next scandal was going to be in home care because I became aware that

:34:04.:34:08.

these things were completely unacceptable. And it is not just

:34:08.:34:12.

short visits, it is a constant unacceptable. And it is not just

:34:12.:34:16.

turnover of different care workers. Let's look at short visits. What

:34:16.:34:20.

will you pledge? The end of 15 minute visits? Well, the one thing

:34:21.:34:24.

we have to be conscious of. There are sometimes occasions for instance

:34:24.:34:28.

checking that someone is taking a their medication when a quick visit

:34:28.:34:29.

might be appropriate. their medication when a quick visit

:34:29.:34:34.

60% of local authorities say the 15 minute visit is used regularly. This

:34:34.:34:39.

is a norm. It is not about changing a plaster? We are doing an amendment

:34:39.:34:46.

to the Care Bill will require local authorities to focus on an

:34:46.:34:56.

individual's care needs. May I just butt in? The local care,

:34:56.:35:05.

the local councils give the contracts to firms.

:35:05.:35:09.

Yes, they do. They don't do it themselves. It is not the local

:35:09.:35:12.

councils who decide. The local councils must stop the...

:35:12.:35:17.

How long is long enough? What would you like to see the norm become? Is

:35:17.:35:20.

half an hour long enough or an hour at a time? Well, Sally rearranged

:35:20.:35:25.

her care so she gets care every second day and has a longer period.

:35:25.:35:29.

There are 15 minute slots on a sheet that you have been given.

:35:29.:35:31.

Absolutely. So tell me what the numbers should

:35:31.:35:35.

be? Well, I don't think you can define a specific number. It has to

:35:35.:35:39.

be based on the individual's well-being. So you might be saying

:35:39.:35:44.

this to another Sally in another year's time? No w we are -- no, we

:35:44.:35:48.

are saying to local authorities they have to he focus on an individual's

:35:48.:35:52.

well-being. You are not going to take

:35:52.:35:55.

responsibility? No, it will be a legal requirement. Sally made this

:35:55.:35:59.

forcefully today. It is not just about formal care, it is about

:35:59.:36:04.

companionship, friendship and giving people a life back again and getting

:36:04.:36:09.

people out of their homes. Sally doesn't see anyone from day-to-day

:36:09.:36:16.

and that's not acceptable. I don't think the Government can do anything

:36:16.:36:20.

about it. I think... It is a challenge for society. Families and

:36:20.:36:23.

neighbours. Thank you.

:36:23.:36:27.

If you were anywhere near feelics stow today, you would have seen a

:36:27.:36:30.

huge ship. You might have asked yourself if it was the biggest ship?

:36:30.:36:37.

It is the biggest moving object ever. If you are a boat geek, burd

:36:37.:36:43.

day -- your day is made. It arrives weighted down with goods from Asia

:36:43.:36:48.

to us. It leaves our shores a lot lighter. Can anything reverse that

:36:48.:36:54.

as we creep slowly away from austerity. Here is Andy Verity.

:36:54.:37:06.

This is the largest ship on the planet. It is a quarter of a mile

:37:06.:37:10.

long and can hold 18,000 container units, three times as many as the

:37:10.:37:12.

long and can hold 18,000 container biggest ships of the last century.

:37:12.:37:16.

. If you stack them up end to end,

:37:16.:37:26.

they breakthrough the Strategic Rail Authority stratifere. Manned by a

:37:26.:37:30.

cruise of just 22, the shirp is so tall it had to be weighed down to

:37:30.:37:33.

get under the bridge that links Sweden to Denmark with just a meter

:37:34.:37:38.

to spare and getting into Copenhagen was trickier.

:37:38.:37:42.

Copenhagen is not used to coping with ships like this. We had to use

:37:42.:37:49.

a powerful top boat. We normally don't do that. We had to make sure

:37:49.:37:54.

because it is a narrow channel we are coming into and that was one of

:37:54.:37:58.

our concerns. If something goes wrong, you could bump against the

:37:58.:38:00.

our concerns. If something goes sides? Yeah, we could do that, but

:38:00.:38:04.

we have made the arrangements so that will never happen.

:38:04.:38:08.

To sail from China to Europe, the ship will take three-and-a-half

:38:08.:38:13.

weeks and an average speed of 16 knots, 18mph. You could cycle

:38:13.:38:17.

faster. The priority is not speed, but transporting these as cheaply as

:38:17.:38:24.

possible. These dull looking boxes have

:38:24.:38:31.

transformed the world. In 1956, a Texan businessman, Malcolm Maclean,

:38:31.:38:37.

converted an oil tanker to take metal botions that could be switched

:38:37.:38:41.

from train to ship to lorry. You could unload a ship for a 13 -- for

:38:41.:38:48.

a 30th of the previous price. Containers like the ones used to

:38:49.:38:52.

build this he East London market, made transport so cheap it mattered

:38:52.:38:56.

less than before where the goods were made. If you wanted to ship

:38:56.:39:00.

something somewhere, it would use up were made. If you wanted to ship

:39:00.:39:04.

25% of the cost. That meant you couldn't ship far. It would cost a

:39:04.:39:09.

lot to get it to a port. Now, with containerisation, that cost has

:39:09.:39:13.

reduced. You can now ship a can of beer for about a cent. ,000

:39:13.:39:19.

container ships on the sea and 20 million containers bringing us 90%

:39:20.:39:23.

of everything. Even some British food arrives by

:39:23.:39:40.

ship. Goods are made in made in Scotland and sent to China and

:39:40.:39:43.

brought back. In one of these boxes, you can fit

:39:43.:39:49.

1,000 scooters or 10,000 pairs of jeans or 13,000 smartphones and here

:39:50.:39:53.

is how cheap that makes it to transport each item. A scooter would

:39:53.:39:59.

cost 96 pence, a pair of jeans, ten pence or a smartphone just seven

:39:59.:40:06.

pence. This vast new vessel should make container shipping cheaper.

:40:06.:40:10.

When this ship is full, it you laid each one of the containers end to

:40:10.:40:13.

end and tried to put them on a train, the train would have to be 68

:40:14.:40:18.

miles long. In fact, this ship is half empty and that's because if it

:40:18.:40:23.

were full, it would sit o so low in the water, it wouldn't be able to

:40:23.:40:27.

get into the Port of Copenhagen. There is no port in North America

:40:27.:40:31.

that can accommodate a ship this size. How it z can it make economic

:40:31.:40:36.

sense to build a ship so large it can't fit into most of the world's

:40:36.:40:41.

ports? The answer believe it or not, is cost-cutting. This ship can dock

:40:41.:40:46.

in the far Eastern Europe, a route where competition is fierce and

:40:46.:40:50.

rates have been slashed. Smaller ships don't make money. The reason

:40:50.:40:55.

why you need a large ship is that you get economies of scale. So you

:40:55.:40:59.

can transport more containers and use less fuel.

:40:59.:41:04.

The Majestic is the first of 20 such ships ordered by a Danish shipping

:41:04.:41:10.

group with revenues as big as Microsoft's and carbon emissions

:41:10.:41:15.

almost as big as Denmark's. While most containers lose money, bigger

:41:15.:41:20.

ships are a way back into profit. This ship consumes around 50% less

:41:20.:41:26.

than the average of the vessels that were employed a couple of years ago.

:41:26.:41:30.

The ship comes here full of containers. What about going back?

:41:30.:41:35.

From Europe, we have a lot of export of waste materials like scrap metal

:41:35.:41:40.

and waste paper and things like that. You take our rubbish? When

:41:40.:41:46.

this ship returns to Asia, it will ride higher in the water because up

:41:46.:41:50.

to half of these units will contain nothing, but air. It is a problem we

:41:50.:41:56.

have had for 30 years. Our addiction to imports creates a nasty

:41:56.:42:01.

imbalance. The most recent data shows in one month we exported £28.4

:42:01.:42:07.

billion worth of goods, but imported 34.7 billion, a deficit of £9.9

:42:07.:42:16.

billion. It is getting worse. In the boom, the West financed that

:42:16.:42:20.

addiction to imports by borrowing massively from the east. The east

:42:20.:42:24.

got a savings glut. The west got into debt and the world got a

:42:24.:42:29.

crisis. That trade imbalance shows up in the

:42:29.:42:36.

prices paid to ship a container. Container shipping companies are

:42:36.:42:39.

keen for these things not to be empty that they will offer you a

:42:39.:42:42.

massive incentive to export. Bringing one of these in from Asia

:42:42.:42:48.

will cost you over $1500. Spending one back out, less than half that.

:42:48.:42:56.

The West's addiction to imports is only half the reason for the

:42:56.:43:00.

difference. China kept its currency low, ensuring goods going west to

:43:00.:43:05.

east are less competitive. But bit by bit, the Chinese currency is

:43:05.:43:12.

appreciating. When that takes hold, this ship going east should sail

:43:12.:43:16.

lower in the water. We are going to take you back to our

:43:16.:43:20.

breaking story. The news that politicians on the subcommittee of

:43:20.:43:22.

the Privy Council rejected the politicians on the subcommittee of

:43:22.:43:25.

press's alternative version of the charter to regulate the press. We

:43:25.:43:29.

are joined by The Sun's, Trevor Kavanagh.

:43:30.:43:33.

Trevor Kavanagh. Thank you for joining us. Tell us your reaction to

:43:33.:43:37.

what you are hearing this evening? Well, it is a surprise that it has

:43:37.:43:39.

what you are hearing this evening? come early, but it is not a shock.

:43:39.:43:43.

It is what we have been given fairly clear clues would happen.

:43:43.:43:48.

Intimations from the top of the Government down. And I think it has

:43:49.:43:56.

to be seen as a great victory for the forces of oppression of a free

:43:56.:44:02.

press, Hacked Off in particular and for the politicians who have gone

:44:02.:44:04.

press, Hacked Off in particular and along for the ride.

:44:04.:44:06.

Tell us what you make of the process? The way in which this has

:44:06.:44:08.

come about? Well. It is a bizarre process. It

:44:08.:44:14.

doesn't really follow the recommendations by Lord Justice

:44:15.:44:19.

Leveson which was for the media, the mups to come up with a solution --

:44:19.:44:23.

newspapers to come up with a solution. We felt we did, we came up

:44:23.:44:27.

with everything that was required of us, short of a political input which

:44:27.:44:32.

would be required by some form of lelg slayings -- legislation.

:44:32.:44:36.

Whichever way you look at it, the Privy Council is a political input.

:44:36.:44:41.

What do you do now? What are the lines you have to safeguard and what

:44:41.:44:46.

are the compromises that you have to make now? Well, I don't speak on

:44:46.:44:49.

behalf of the newspaper industry, but I would guess that we will

:44:49.:44:56.

proceed as we are doing and have been doing for a very long time and

:44:56.:45:00.

try to keep getting newspapers out with good stories in them. Somewhere

:45:00.:45:04.

along the line from now on, we will hear officially and formally from

:45:04.:45:07.

the Privy Council and then we will know what the reaction is of the

:45:07.:45:12.

Government and now and of the day. This is going to drag on for a long

:45:12.:45:16.

time. Possibly up to and beyond the next election. Thank you very much,

:45:16.:45:21.

Trevor Kavanagh. Steve Hewlett, you can respond to that and what Twitter

:45:21.:45:25.

has been telling us? Well, I have had a response from someone who does

:45:25.:45:31.

represent the industry who says what Trevor says along the lines of their

:45:31.:45:36.

plans for their self regulatory. Trevor says along the lines of their

:45:36.:45:40.

Lord Phillips searching for the personnel. This is the press's own

:45:40.:45:48.

new self regulator to replace the IPCC. The details of this have not

:45:48.:45:52.

been discussed here yet. The discussion tonight and what the

:45:52.:45:55.

Privy Council is about is all about a recognition body to give the stamp

:45:55.:45:59.

of approval to the press self regulator to stop Leveson said what

:45:59.:46:03.

happened every time before which is you get a crisis, a commission and

:46:03.:46:07.

then they back slide. This, the back stop, the recognition body was the

:46:08.:46:13.

key to holding that in process. The campaigners, Hacked Off, say the

:46:13.:46:20.

decision -- was inevitable, it is overdue and the press were involved

:46:20.:46:24.

in stalling tactics. They say it has shown two good things. It shows the

:46:24.:46:31.

press are still weded to the old IPCC. The press are not all agreed

:46:31.:46:40.

about IPCO, but although the pes weren't agreed - press wrant agreed

:46:40.:46:45.

-- weren't agreed, they all disagreed with it.

:46:45.:46:51.

Steve Hewlett, thank you very much indeed. We end with the news tonight

:46:51.:46:54.

that the BBC reversed the flow of talent leaving the organisation

:46:54.:46:59.

today with their star signing, the Sesame Street's Cookie Monster

:46:59.:47:06.

joined our presenters roster. We have been joined by him. Cookie

:47:06.:47:19.

Monster, why Britain? Why the BBC? Cookie. Yum-yum. Bye-bye.

:47:19.:47:25.

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