17/10/2013 Newsnight


17/10/2013

An investigation into the attacks at the Westgate shopping mall in Nairobi; an interview with the energy secretary on rising fuel bills; and Kirsty Wark talks to Donna Tartt.


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Transcript


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One of the four murders who killed indiscriminately in the attack on

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the shopping mall in Nairobi grew up, not in poverty-stricken,

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war-torn Somalia, but in peaceful Norway.

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As horrifying new pictures emerge of what happened during the attack, we

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can identify one of the killers. We trace his story to the non-descript

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town which took him in and which he rejected for life as a Jihadi.

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Also tonight: Why nt doesn't the energy secretary do something to

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stop people being fleeced by the suppliers. -- why doesn't.

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I had worn my solitude stowically enough without realising how aLen I

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was. And we have a rare interview with Donna Tartt, the woman who

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wrote the Seek re History and is about to release her latest novel.

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-- Secret. I feel lucky I can devote this amount of time to doing what I

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do. This is what I think about all the time. I'm obsessed.

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It's now over three weeks since the terrorist attack on the Westgate

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attack in the shopping mall in Nairobi, at least 63 people were

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killed. It was almost immediately attributed to the Al-Shabab

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organisation. Tonight a Newsnight investigation can disclose that one

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of the four attackers wasn't a Somali, but we have traced him to

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his Norwegian home town. Gabriel Gatehouse's report contains

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distressing pictures. It's a foggy road that winds its way

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south from Oslo as the dark, long, nordic winter sets in. We are a long

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way here from Nairobi. This is the story of a journey - the

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journey of a young boy who fled war in his native Somalia. This country

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is the country who took them with open arms. A boy who found a new

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life in Norway. I don't know if it's right to call him extreme. It was

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just different from me. But, who apparently turned his back on the

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West and the life it had offered him.

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Investigators believe this man is that boy from Norway.

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So, we think we've identified one of the Westgate attackers. We think

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we've found his home town, a small place called Larvik, south-west of

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Oslo. So that's where we are going now.

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Newsnight is on a journey to find out who he is and why he might have

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turned to terror. As dawn breaks, we reach Larvik, a

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modest town on Norway's southern coast. This quiet become water seems

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about as distant as it's possible to imagine from Somalia's

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two-decade-long conflict. That war gave rise to Al-Shabab,

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meaning literally The Youth, which on 21st September announced in

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spectacular fashion, it's intention to join the international A-league

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of Al-Qaeda-linked terrorist groups. Shortly after midday that Saturday,

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gunmen stormed the Westgate shopping mall. A four-day siege ensued.

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Dozens of hostages were thought to be stuck inside the complex, held

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there, the authorities said, by 10 to 15 heavily-armed terrorists. But

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when the CC TV footage came out, it only showed four attackers, fevered

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speculation about their identities did little to establish any clarity.

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There is a lot of rumours circulating and we have to be

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watchful, since the Kenyans before have had somewhat very broad focuses

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in their investigations. In Nairobi, all the investigators really knew,

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was what the attackers were wearing. They dubbed them "black shirt"

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"white shirt" "blue shirt" and "pink shirt." Then from Oslo came an

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unexpected twist. In a bland statement the Norwegian Security

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Service said it was investigating whether one of its own citizens was

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involved in the attack. They didn't mention a name. But sources, in

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Kenya and in Norway v be pointed us to this man. -- have pointed us.

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Black shirt, seen firing a kalashnikov rifle inside the

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supermarket on the first day of the siege. Newsnight can reveal here for

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the first time that the man under investigation is dew dew dew. He's

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-- Hussan Dhuhulow. He is 23 and is a nor weedge

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citizen. Dramatic footage which emerged for the first time today

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shows the man investigate os believe as Hussan Dhuhulow shooting a man

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already in a pool of blood. He and his family came to Norway as

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refugees in 1999. They ended up in sleepy Larvik. Hussan was nine.

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Informs in this block of flats that we understand that Hussan Dhuhulow

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lived as a teenager with his family, until a few years ago. A neighbour

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told us he disappeared and moved to Africa. Mortem Henriksen took a look

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from the CC TV footage from inside Westgate. It might be him. This one

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in the blackjack et. Hussan Dhuhulow left for somal why in 2009. --

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Somalia. So he hasn't seen his neighbour for about four years, but

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he points, without prompting to black shirt, apparently

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corroborating our other sources. He was pretty extreme. In what way? He

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was talking about the Koran all the time. So, he didn't like the way we

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lived here. His father told me that he didn't

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like the way it was going. Was his father worried about him, did you

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sense? Yes, he was worried. What did he say? He was talking about -- when

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he was small, he was fighting with his school friends. He was in

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trouble in school. There are other links, too, between Norway and

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Somalia. Two weeks after Westgate, US Navy Seal Team 6. The same guys

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that took out Osama Bin Laden, carried out an ambitious raid on a

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small town on the Somali coast. Their target was a senior Al-Shabab

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operator who goes by the name of Ikrema. The raid wasn't a success,

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the Americans didn't get the man but he is understood to be a senior

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recruiter of foreign fighters for Al-Shabab and he spent time here in

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Norway. Between 20 and 30 Norwegian citizens, almost exclusively of

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Somali origin, are thought to have travelled to East Africa to join the

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fight. Of particular concern is a group known as Generation 1.5, those

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who were born in Somalia, but came to Norway at a relatively young age.

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They need people that really are quite ignorant on Somalia, which is

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dangerous. Because that will give them a more internationalist agenda

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against these people and it might also make them more dangerous when

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they return back to their home countries. There is a sizeable

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Somali community here. Attempts to help them integrate into Norwegian

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society have had mixed results. This man is a success story. Like Hussan

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Dhuhulow, he came to Norway at the age of nine. But today he holds a

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seat on Oslo City Council. He says he knows many who feel alienated in

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their adopted homeland. I have seen people who I know - not

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my close friends - that have been radicalised, that have been changed

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a lot. Some people who I know or I know their parents who have

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travelled back and, yes, I have... Who travelled back specifically to

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fight? Yes, to fight. Here in Larvik, few people are willing to

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talk openly about Hussan Dhuhulow. We have, though, spoken to one

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family member, who didn't want to go on camera. But they spoke of

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infrequent and erratic phonecalls home, each time from a different

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Somali mobile number. The last time he called, they said, was this

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summer. He said he was in trouble and wanted to come home. Larvik's

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Somalis came together this week to celebrate Eid. But this is a

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community under pressure. This police had, we understand, been

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keeping tabs on Hussan Dhuhulow for quite some time. We showed the CCTV

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footage to his relative. "I don't know what to think or feel", they

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said, "If it is him, he must have been brain washed.

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With James Ferguson is the author of World's Most Dangerous Place a book

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about Somalia and the terrorist group, Al-Shabab that is based

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there. Are you surprised by this discovery? Not really. I this I it

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fits the profile. This has been going on for sometime. We know that

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there are - there is a brigade of international fighters with

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Al-Shabab from all over Europe, from America and Canada. This happens to

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be from Norway but not so very surprising, no. This one is believed

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to be from Norway. He's representative of the general

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disaffection in the Somali communities, or what? I think we

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need to be very careful about that and not to demonise the entire

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community. The diaspora is enormous there are something like 2 million

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Somalis living outside Somalia proper. 22,000 in Norway. Far more

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in this country. The vast majority are not potential terrorists. I want

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to stress that. But there are a significant number who might be.

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They have been going back to fight for Al-Shabab for some time in some

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numbers. When you say "some numbers", what do you mean? Well

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last year the Royal United Services Institute suggested there were 200

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fighters, fighting for Al-Shabab, of woman, 50 are British. We know in

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the States 48 American Sol alleys have gone back to fight for

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Al-Shabab for the last five or six years and so on. A population of

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22,000 in Norway t would be surprising if thereby weren't some,

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among a population of that size, who were also enticed back to fight. You

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say the biggest European Community in this this country? By far. No-one

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quite knows. The official census is something like 108,000 but actually

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if you ask the police they say 200,000 or 300,000 British Somalis

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here. It is not quite clear how many. But it is very large and by

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fart largest in Europe. Presumably they come and go, these young men

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who are going to see action or... Correct, yes. Or exercise an

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affiliation with Al-Shabab in some way. They are British passport

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holders. There is a lot of traffic. They are entitled to come and G the

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diaspora is very much engaged with its home country. There are so many

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Somalis going back to Mogadishu now because things are getting better

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and there is a minor property boom and people are going back to build

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stuff there. This is what worries the security forces here, of course

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it does. The danger is someone goes back to Somalia, getss weapons'

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training and explosives' training and come backs on a European

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passport, back into Europe and does something here. That's the great

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fear. Thank you very much. Another of the big energy companies hiked

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its prices today. Centrica, owner of British Gas, is going to charge

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customers over another 9% a year on average for gas and electricity.

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That is more than three times the rate of inflation. The Prime

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Miinister used the unenergetic adjective "disappointing" to

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describe the price rises. As for doing anything about it, the advice

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remains the same - shop around. This is - no pun intended - a

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highly-charged issue - because Labour has promised to cap energy

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costs for a while if elected. The companies themselves blame

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Government taxes and obligations. Andy Verity reports. British Gas is

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advertising today for a new social media manager. Successful applicants

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may have to inviet customers on Twitter to hashtag "ask BG" but with

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these tweets after their price-rise today would you take the job? Which

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items of furniture do you you in your humble opinion think people

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should burn first this winteder? British Gas, freezing pensioners,

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not prices. Do the British Gas board prefer to a bit in ?20 or ?50 notes.

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When you tell 8 million households they'll pay ?100 million extra a

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year for their energy, there is no problem generating heat. These are

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very disappointing announcements by British Gas. There are things we can

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do and we are intervening. We are legislating to say these companies

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have to put their customers on to the lowest tar Eve. I think we need

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relief from rising energy prices and a Government to stand up to the

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energy companies and fix the broken market. Why are these prices going

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up? Because we have a market that's not working and companies that are

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over-charging people. Against that blizzard of public

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criticism, ask BG sought shelter in a fact: does the big bad energy

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company have a pint? The power companies point out most of the

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costs pushing your bill up aren't within their control. If the market

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price rises they have to pay it, but, they point out, theres a chunk

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of your bill which is under politicians' control.

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Government-imposed costs like subsidising the likes of that.

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If you have given down the M4 near reading you might recognise this.

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When the wind is too high it can't general rate electricity. Too low

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and it won't generate much. Running at 16% of its capacity it is one of

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the least effective wind turbines in the company. As with half of the

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turbines, half its income comes from subsidies. -- as with other

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turbines. They are not driving down costs or

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providing an alternative to cool the developing world. It is

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counter-productive. Is it this that brings misery to your letterbox when

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the bill arrives? Well actually you will pay more for this, a British

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Gas campaign under a the so-called eco-scheme. The inner joy company's

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obligation forces firms to hit targets for helping people on low

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incomes or old draftee homes but first they have to find them. They

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cannot use data from the benefits' system because of privacy laws, so

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it costs hundreds of pounds to find each needy household, you pay. For

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those who prefer light to heat this is what it does to your bill. Now it

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is the blue slice, 9% of the bill or ?112. Of, that the biggest amount,

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?57, subsidises insulation and new boilers for hard-pressed households.

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?11 bays for rebates to 2 million people in fuel poverty, the

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warm-home discount. ?7 rewards households that generate energy from

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wind turbines and solar panels. ?8 is what firms are forced to pay for

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permits to emit carbon. ?5 is to keep the price of carbon up and ?3

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for smart betters and better building. -- for smart metres.

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And 2% of the bill goes on windfarms.

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In five-year's time your bill-money won't be paying to subsidise these,

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you will also be paying nuclear generators to produce energy at far

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more than the market price. You can buy wholesale electricity at a

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market price of ?52 per mega Watt hour but reports today say you'll Jo

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v to pay nuclear generators nearly double the market price which will

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come off your bill. The renewables have made everything else

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uncompetitive. Not make a living S nuclear economic? Nobody knows, what

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we know is they can't make a living in this distorted market. They want

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a subsidy. Ever wants a subsidy because renewables have a subsidy.

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-- ever. These are the Government's figures showing the total effect of

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all the policies on your bill. This year they'll add 17%. In 2020,

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they'll add, 33% and by 2040, it'll be 41%. Politicians don't all blame

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the power companies. This whole George Osborne criticism of green

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taxes is extraordinary. Because it was George Osborne and the Tories

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who insisted on putting a cashen price floor in the coalition

:17:21.:17:22.

agreement. The Liberal Democrats didn't want T the Department of

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energy and climate change didn't need it to make sure the electricity

:17:26.:17:31.

sector decarbonises. It was a straight revenue-raising measure. It

:17:32.:17:34.

is utter hypocrisy on the part of George Osborne. He caught to trap T

:17:35.:17:38.

The institute for fiscal studies say green taxes on bills is so high it

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is as if VAT was paid at the top rate.

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Companies are paying things like the climate change levy they are clearly

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paying the European emission trading scheme costs, and they are paying

:17:54.:17:57.

this thing called the carbon-reduction commitment. Of

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course, someone has it pay for that. It maybe that we'll pay higher

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prices. It maybe that the profits of the companies are lower. It maybe

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that their workers are earning less. Those effects, whilst hidden, in

:18:09.:18:11.

terms of households, are there. The man proposing to freeze bills once

:18:12.:18:15.

imposed new green taxes and his opposition counted part supported

:18:16.:18:18.

him. Those policies were designed the make energy more expensive. The

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trouble s they succeeded. -- the trouble is.

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In a moment the energy secretary, the Liberal Democrat, Ed Davey but

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first Caroline Flint, the Labour shadow. What is it that you think

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that bill pay remembers having it pay for that they shouldn't? -- bill

:18:34.:18:38.

payers? They are being over-charged. We have looked closely at the

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wholesale costs of electricity and gas over the last four years. We saw

:18:44.:18:46.

they went down substantially in 2009. It was never reflected in

:18:47.:18:50.

bills and the mark-up between wholesale costs and the retail

:18:51.:18:53.

price, we reckon about two-thirds cannot be accounted for. One-third

:18:54.:18:57.

is issues around the green levies and installations. What is it they

:18:58.:19:03.

shouldn't be having it pay for? The bill payers? Yes. What they should

:19:04.:19:07.

be paying for. What they should not be paying for? Well, what they

:19:08.:19:11.

shouldn't be paying for is unreasonable profits that the energy

:19:12.:19:14.

companies are making. And you determine whether they are

:19:15.:19:16.

reasonable or not, do you? Well, we have looked very closely, Jeremy, at

:19:17.:19:20.

the wholesale costs. Because that's something that the energy companies

:19:21.:19:24.

always tell us, put up prices. We believe, looking at the evidence,

:19:25.:19:27.

that actually, there is no case for that. But the truth is, we need to

:19:28.:19:32.

reform this market because we have a vertically integrated structure

:19:33.:19:35.

which means these companies create energy, renewables, gas, other forms

:19:36.:19:40.

of energy, nuclear, sell it to themselves and sell it on to us. We

:19:41.:19:44.

want to break it open. You are perfectly happy with bill payers

:19:45.:19:49.

paying for green energy, paying an insulation subsidy and all that sort

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of thing? I think it is the case - from nationalisation from

:19:54.:19:56.

privatisation, there has always been some sort of social tariff or

:19:57.:19:59.

obligation to help the fuel poor. You are happy with it. I think it is

:20:00.:20:03.

a good thing to help people insulate homes. On the green levies, a

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fraction of the bill, something like only 5% or even less of the bill, it

:20:07.:20:11.

is about investment in our future. But you are happy with that I'm

:20:12.:20:15.

happy with investing in a cleaner... It is the profit you object to I

:20:16.:20:19.

object to the distortionist market we have with six companies

:20:20.:20:24.

dominating it. If you feel strongly why don't you advocate

:20:25.:20:27.

re-nationalisation? I don't think that is he at answer either. I think

:20:28.:20:32.

it it is about making the market transparent and competitive. If you

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look at the big six they reflect where regional mob op poise under

:20:37.:20:41.

nationalisation. -- monopolies. How can it be transparent if you in

:20:42.:20:44.

Government are setting the price? We are saying we will have a temporary

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freeze for 20 months which one, recognises over-charging but two,

:20:50.:20:52.

allows us to bring in legislation to reform the market. You speak on

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behalf of the party that in Government saw the average energy

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bill double? They did go up but they are going up at three times the rate

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in the last three years as we have seen bills go up by ?300 and ?400.

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Which is why we recognise, that spanning several governments,

:21:11.:21:12.

including our own, something has gone wrong with this market and why

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we have come to the view that it needs to be changed. That means

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reorganising the way this, McEt works, opening it up -- market.

:21:20.:21:24.

Breaking it down and having a power exchange where all energy is in an

:21:25.:21:27.

open space where energy can be bought and sold on to us. To be

:21:28.:21:31.

clear about this - you would fix the market because you would set what

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price could be laid. You would also continue to pass on to bill-payers,

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the charges that Government is currently loafying, both of those

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things are true, are they? -- levying? We would have having a

:21:44.:21:48.

temporary price freeze but would give a new regulator the power to

:21:49.:21:51.

monitor more closely the wholesale costs and if they fall and those

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reductions aren't reflected in the bills a new regulator would have the

:21:56.:21:59.

power to force those companies to pass that reduction on. But I have

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to say, whilst it is quite right that we keep a close eye on

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subsidies for renewables and nuclear, and make sure we are

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getting a fair deal. While it is quite right that we should keep

:22:10.:22:13.

under review the money we ask bill payers to support to energy

:22:14.:22:16.

efficiency schemes, they have to be part of what will be a cleaner and

:22:17.:22:20.

cheaper future in terms of our energy supply. Thank you.

:22:21.:22:25.

Well, Ed Davey is here now, the energy secretary.

:22:26.:22:28.

What is your advice to people who may have a genuine belief they

:22:29.:22:33.

cannot pay these new bills? Well, I do think they can switch. We have

:22:34.:22:38.

seen a big increase in competition under this coalition government. We

:22:39.:22:42.

have deregulated. There are now eight independent suppliers

:22:43.:22:44.

challenging the big six thanks to our approximately sis. People can

:22:45.:22:49.

make big savings. -- policies. Which companies should they switch to?

:22:50.:22:52.

Well there are eight independent suppliers. They are on the uSwitch

:22:53.:22:56.

website. People can go and see them and can see the energy advice

:22:57.:22:59.

available on our hotline. Given what we know of how the energy companies

:23:00.:23:03.

behave, only a fool would change from a company which has already

:23:04.:23:06.

raised its price to one which is about to do so, when they don't know

:23:07.:23:10.

what they are going to raise to it. To. If you look now, you will find

:23:11.:23:13.

one company will allow you to fix for two years to April 2015, and on

:23:14.:23:21.

the British Gas tar Eve, before this tariff. You could have saved ?150.

:23:22.:23:25.

After this price rise you will be able to save ?250. So there are some

:23:26.:23:29.

really big savings to be had out there, thanks to the competition

:23:30.:23:32.

that we have now got into the market. When did you last switch

:23:33.:23:36.

your energy supplier? Earlier this year Who did you switch to

:23:37.:23:41.

Sainsbury?s energy. I did the big London energy switch. Hour idea, to

:23:42.:23:44.

enable people to come together to get a better deal in the market,

:23:45.:23:48.

pulling the purchasing power. I was part of that and saved over ?200.

:23:49.:23:53.

What do you set your thermostat to at home? I'm not absolutely sure, to

:23:54.:23:58.

be honest, Jeremy. My wife tends to take care of that. But do you advise

:23:59.:24:03.

- you do give advice, don't you? You say there is no need to overheat

:24:04.:24:06.

your home or have the air conditioning on, if you have air

:24:07.:24:09.

conditioning. You do. What do you recommend? Well, to my wife or... ?

:24:10.:24:14.

What is a sensible temperature for people to have in their home? A lot

:24:15.:24:19.

depends on, of course, the building and the insulation because what we

:24:20.:24:22.

are trying to say is insulate your home more. Do things like the green

:24:23.:24:26.

deal, use the energy company obligations, so if you insulate your

:24:27.:24:30.

home more you can turn heating down. Are people too accustomed not to

:24:31.:24:34.

wear jumpers? Well, I'm sure people wear jumpers. I wear jumpers at

:24:35.:24:39.

home. You do? You are missing the point here. We need to help people

:24:40.:24:42.

with the bills. I am extremely worried about them. We can use

:24:43.:24:45.

competition the way we have but we can make our homes warmer and we can

:24:46.:24:50.

use less electricity and goes by going energy efficient and that's

:24:51.:24:53.

what the Government is trying to do. About 17% of these bills is

:24:54.:24:58.

Government charges, right? No. What is it? 4% is the green levies and 5%

:24:59.:25:04.

is the social charges on things like fuel poverty, helping the poorest in

:25:05.:25:07.

our society manage their bitches I'm very supportive of those. I'm also

:25:08.:25:12.

-- manage their bills. I'm very supportive of those.

:25:13.:25:18.

What about nuclear? I hope to make an announcement shortly about that.

:25:19.:25:21.

That will raise the price of energy, won't it? The first time a nuclear

:25:22.:25:26.

power station is likely to be generating is in the next decade,

:25:27.:25:31.

possibly even as far as ten years ahead. If it is that far ahead, we

:25:32.:25:35.

won't be paying for that nuclear energy for ten years' time. When we

:25:36.:25:39.

do pay, we'll be in quite a different world. We'll probably see

:25:40.:25:44.

higher gas prices. We will see carbon prices. And therefore, it is

:25:45.:25:47.

quite likely and I hope to be able to set this out in due course, that

:25:48.:25:52.

nuclear can be very xetedtive. Why -- competitive.

:25:53.:25:54.

Why do you believe that people who are paying bills should pay for all

:25:55.:25:58.

of this, as opposed to the taxpayer? Well, it does make sense through the

:25:59.:26:02.

energy industry rather than the taxpayer paying it. If it was paid

:26:03.:26:08.

by the taxpayer there would be something progressive about it? We

:26:09.:26:12.

get progressivity and fairness in the system through thingses called

:26:13.:26:15.

the warm home discount. 2 million of the most vulnerable people in the

:26:16.:26:20.

society, over a million of the poorest pensioners get money, ?135

:26:21.:26:24.

directly off their bill and that produces fairness in the way we

:26:25.:26:28.

balance our social and our environmental policies. Do you think

:26:29.:26:31.

the system is working well? We need more competition. We inherited from

:26:32.:26:35.

the last lot, the big six. We think the big six have been a real problem

:26:36.:26:39.

and that's why we have deregulated. We have now got eight - your

:26:40.:26:44.

eyebrows are going up. The question was whether you think the system is

:26:45.:26:47.

working well? It is working better. We need to do more. It is not

:26:48.:26:52.

working well, then? Well, it's been working better since we improved

:26:53.:26:57.

competition in our energy bill before Parliament we are helping to

:26:58.:27:01.

simplify tariffs, to make bills simpler and get more competition in

:27:02.:27:05.

the wholesale market. I'm not satisfied at all. I think what we

:27:06.:27:09.

inherited before was not good enough. We are dramatically

:27:10.:27:12.

increasing competition. It be isn't just a case of what you inherited,

:27:13.:27:16.

though, is it? I mean you, for example, set the carbon floor,

:27:17.:27:21.

didn't you? We did indeed. And as Chris Huhne has testified in that

:27:22.:27:24.

piece of tape we saw a moment ago, that was something that was insisted

:27:25.:27:28.

upon by George Osborne, was agreed to by you, and which has raised

:27:29.:27:35.

bills. Is Well, it is about 1%, slightly less. I don't think you can

:27:36.:27:39.

put all of prices on to that. The money is not being spent upon

:27:40.:27:44.

energy. It is being given to the Treasury? Well, it is very important

:27:45.:27:48.

to send a very important price signal to investors in low carbon.

:27:49.:27:51.

What we are seeing - and this is the other missing part of the equation -

:27:52.:27:55.

how much investment have we seen? We have seen ?35 billion of investment

:27:56.:28:00.

in clean energy and electricity infrastructure. We need that

:28:01.:28:03.

investment urgently. We have an energy security problem in this

:28:04.:28:06.

country. You can read reports about it. Why do we have that problem?

:28:07.:28:10.

Because we have had over a decade-and-a-half without that

:28:11.:28:12.

investment. The coalition government is turning that be around. We are

:28:13.:28:17.

now seeing tens of billions of pounds in investment. I can say to

:28:18.:28:20.

you - under this Government - we will be able to keep the lights on

:28:21.:28:23.

and we will be making investments for the future. Not only will bills

:28:24.:28:26.

be lower in the future because of the investments we are making but we

:28:27.:28:29.

can have energy security in this country.

:28:30.:28:31.

Thank you very much. Now, there isn'ted a mainstream --

:28:32.:28:36.

isn't a mainstream politician who speaks out against social mobility

:28:37.:28:40.

even if it means for every rung of life's ladder that one person climbs

:28:41.:28:45.

so someone else must suffer a fall but for all the bluster, the

:28:46.:28:48.

Government stands accused by the very people it asks to assess its

:28:49.:28:53.

performance of willing the ends but not the means. The minimum wage is

:28:54.:28:59.

too-low. Two-thirds of children defined as in poverty are in a

:29:00.:29:03.

family that works. Jim Re, d reports.

:29:04.:29:07.

-- Reed. 46 years ago this end-of-terraced

:29:08.:29:12.

home kick-started a quiet revolution. A brick layer from

:29:13.:29:16.

Romford became the first tenant it buy his house from the Greater

:29:17.:29:21.

London Council. -- to buy. 2 million sales later and for many,

:29:22.:29:25.

home-ownership in estates like this is still a sign of aspiration, of

:29:26.:29:31.

getting ahead. This man, Jim Reagan paid just ?2,500 for his home in

:29:32.:29:36.

1967. Less than twice his annual income. Matching his father make

:29:37.:29:42.

history was son Mick, filmed here as a 20-year-old.

:29:43.:29:47.

Four decades later, we brought him back to his childhood home. London

:29:48.:29:54.

was changing and all we had was a garden with chickens in. A pub in a

:29:55.:30:01.

corner. No grass in the garden. They all came around, the media and press

:30:02.:30:06.

and had tea and sandwiches. It was embarrassing. I think, at the time,

:30:07.:30:11.

being a working man, it was a step up the ladder but it was security

:30:12.:30:16.

for me and my brother Danny. He now lives in Peterborough. For us to say

:30:17.:30:21.

-- if anything went wrong, we would be safe for the future. That's all

:30:22.:30:25.

really. By working hard, saving and buying their own council house the

:30:26.:30:29.

likes of Jim Reagan and millions of others felt they were investigating,

:30:30.:30:33.

building a better life for themselves and their families. What

:30:34.:30:38.

today's report in all it's 348 pages is saying is that those days have

:30:39.:30:42.

gone and even many working parents will struggle to pull themselves out

:30:43.:30:47.

of poverty. The transient poverty that's

:30:48.:30:51.

stalling mobility is now a big problem, not just for low income

:30:52.:30:54.

families but for middle income families. Many of those parents are

:30:55.:30:59.

feeling that for the fist time in a century, their children when they

:31:00.:31:02.

grow up, will have lowest living standards than they have enjoyed.

:31:03.:31:07.

Sadly, that prospect, may well come to pass. The message today was that

:31:08.:31:12.

hard work is no longer the clear route out of poverty it once was.

:31:13.:31:16.

Most children living in households considered to be poor now have at

:31:17.:31:22.

least one parent in a job. Over the last 15 years wages have

:31:23.:31:27.

simply not kept up with economic growth. Weekly earnings are now

:31:28.:31:31.

lower in real terms than they were back in 1996. -- 1997.

:31:32.:31:40.

Consider We have seen a flatlining of earnings and incomes, for a large

:31:41.:31:45.

part of society. The growth we saw in the pre-crisis jeers was very

:31:46.:31:49.

much skewed and concentrated in the hands of a minority at the time.

:31:50.:31:52.

That was to do with the industrial structure we had with

:31:53.:31:55.

financialisation and the dominance of the financial services industry.

:31:56.:31:59.

It is also down to global trends which means we have a growing

:32:00.:32:03.

Polarisation of the labour market. High rewards for high-skilled jobs,

:32:04.:32:08.

low rewards for low-skilled jobs and a hollowing out in the middle. The

:32:09.:32:13.

the first-ever council house sold has changed with the times. The

:32:14.:32:18.

two-bed semi seen in 1967 has been extended three times and is now a

:32:19.:32:23.

six bedroom house worth over ?300,000. Jim Reagan sold his

:32:24.:32:27.

council house own. It's now owned by Joseph and Nicola Duffield. They

:32:28.:32:32.

might live in a six-bedroom property but they sthar with elderly parents

:32:33.:32:37.

and two sons in their 20s who can't yet buy their own place. -- but they

:32:38.:32:43.

share it. For us there was jobs. You could work from one to the next. If

:32:44.:32:47.

you wanted overtime you could do it. That's what we Z it didn't matter

:32:48.:32:51.

how many hours we worked, so long as we paid everything I was willing to

:32:52.:32:55.

do that. But the youngsters today don't have that opportunity. There

:32:56.:32:58.

is not the jobs, you are right. There is not the jobs now. If they

:32:59.:33:03.

are in the opportunity where they can do more hours for al-Muntasser,

:33:04.:33:09.

that's -- more hours for more money that is how they can get on to the

:33:10.:33:12.

property ladder but they are not there. Everything has changed. It is

:33:13.:33:17.

a changed world. Social mobility can't be measured just by

:33:18.:33:21.

home-ownership, of course. Today's report recommends raising the

:33:22.:33:26.

minimum wage and shifting welfare payments from some pensioners to

:33:27.:33:29.

working families to close what the author's call the country's fairness

:33:30.:33:33.

deficit. Joining us now is the author and

:33:34.:33:37.

columnist, Bidisha and David skeleton founder of a think-tank

:33:38.:33:40.

trying to make the Tories more appealing to working-class voteders.

:33:41.:33:44.

This is a really striking finding, that work is no longer the way out

:33:45.:33:50.

of poverty, the way you can make yourself socially upwardly mobile.

:33:51.:33:55.

What has gone wrong? For me what it shows is more needs to be done to

:33:56.:33:59.

ensure that, as hasn't been the case for the past 15 years, that wages

:34:00.:34:02.

keep up with prices. But, also, it shows, over the past few decades,

:34:03.:34:06.

our education system has quite simply failed some of the poorest in

:34:07.:34:11.

society. In the long term, what we have to do is boost our skills.

:34:12.:34:15.

That's the only way to really increase earnings, over a long term

:34:16.:34:19.

and really boost social mobility. What do you think has gone wrong? I

:34:20.:34:23.

think it is an incredibly striking report. I second what you say but

:34:24.:34:26.

this is about the fundamentals, isn't it? What this reports does is

:34:27.:34:31.

look ahead to the generation who are now 10, 11, and 12. What future are

:34:32.:34:36.

we giving them? Where do we need it put the money? Education, health

:34:37.:34:40.

care, childcare, disability benefit. The classic things. What is so

:34:41.:34:44.

interesting about this report, is that it makes visible the invisible.

:34:45.:34:49.

It looks ahead to 2020 where there will be 2 million children living in

:34:50.:34:55.

poverty. 15% of working-age adults, 16% of pensioners, it is a very

:34:56.:35:01.

striking and damning prognosis. And work not being the way out

:35:02.:35:06.

Absolutely and there being all sorts of other obstacles. Work is not the

:35:07.:35:10.

way out. If you want a university education, it is expensive. You may

:35:11.:35:14.

not be able to find a job when you get to the end of it. It is also

:35:15.:35:17.

about empowering those people who aren't at the stage of thinking - I

:35:18.:35:21.

want to go to a great school and top university. It is about saying -

:35:22.:35:25.

where are the apprenticeships? If you get a job that doesn't require a

:35:26.:35:30.

degree, will you be paid a wage, even the minimum wage, that is

:35:31.:35:36.

liveable? This is a really bleak and depressing future? Which for me show

:35:37.:35:39.

the importance of education reform which is the only way out in the

:35:40.:35:42.

long term. We should think about ways of increasing the minimum wage

:35:43.:35:47.

if we can safeguard jobs by reforming the tax system but in the

:35:48.:35:50.

long term we need to make sure we reform education so that people from

:35:51.:35:54.

the poorest parts of society do get this opportunity. I'm passionate

:35:55.:35:58.

about this. I went to a school where only 10% of people were getting five

:35:59.:36:04.

good A to Cs but there were so many great people but they weren't

:36:05.:36:08.

allowed to make the most of their potential. It is important to reform

:36:09.:36:12.

education to make sure people can make the most of their potential and

:36:13.:36:16.

we build more houses so people can get on the housing ladder. What

:36:17.:36:21.

about the report saying that the cards aren't being dealt evenly, as

:36:22.:36:25.

between the old and too much that the young are getting too much and

:36:26.:36:34.

the old too little I absolutely disagree with some of the

:36:35.:36:36.

recommendation of the report which is that we look at the furthest

:36:37.:36:41.

edges of society and say to the mythical rich - OK you don't have

:36:42.:36:46.

to... But there are some. Yes but that's not the answer. If you want

:36:47.:36:49.

education reform. If you want long-term reform of all of other

:36:50.:36:53.

things we care about in society - which by the way we have been

:36:54.:36:56.

talking about for 20 years - you raise money. How do you do that? You

:36:57.:37:00.

don't penalise pensioners, regardless of whether they are rich,

:37:01.:37:04.

poor or medium. You raise money by taxing those individuals who are

:37:05.:37:07.

still working and those corporations who are making millions and you tax

:37:08.:37:14.

them by 0.5% more. I almost made a Freudian slip by saying 5% more,

:37:15.:37:19.

which is secretly what I think. But 0.5% and that will raise the money.

:37:20.:37:22.

You can't go through the rigmarole to find the rich pensioners and get

:37:23.:37:26.

their TV licence money back off them. When we talk about social

:37:27.:37:31.

mobility, assuming we fleed mobilitied upwards -- we moon

:37:32.:37:35.

mobility upwards. Presumably there are some people who are socially

:37:36.:37:39.

mobile downwards. Is that a problem? Not necessarily. I think social

:37:40.:37:43.

mobility is about making the most out of their potential. For me the

:37:44.:37:46.

problem is you have people at the age of five... If somebody goes up,

:37:47.:37:51.

somebody else has to come down. You need people to make the most out of

:37:52.:37:56.

their potential. At five the vocabulary gap between swung brought

:37:57.:38:01.

up in a poor or rich household is about one year. We need to think

:38:02.:38:06.

about that and make sure the people make the most out of their

:38:07.:38:10.

potential. But for that to happen society needs to be more flat,

:38:11.:38:14.

doesn't it? Not at all. If you look at the dynamic successful socially

:38:15.:38:17.

mobile societies in the world they are not more flat but they are

:38:18.:38:21.

prosperous. What is the model? There are various. What are they? If you

:38:22.:38:27.

look at Sweden, Sweden has done education and welfare reform over

:38:28.:38:29.

the past few years, because the flatter model wasn't working for it.

:38:30.:38:34.

So, the model which is - socially mobile and economically prosperous

:38:35.:38:37.

is what we are looking for. Can I say something - which is... Of

:38:38.:38:42.

course you can, that's why you are here. It is not bh flatness. I think

:38:43.:38:46.

the model has to be more flexible. It bothers me when I sea see reports

:38:47.:38:51.

saying two-thirds of people living under the poverty line, one parent

:38:52.:38:54.

works. What that means is they work outside the home. It means the other

:38:55.:38:57.

parent is doing the childcare which is a huge amount of work done for

:38:58.:39:03.

free. We are getting on to an entirely different subject. I am not

:39:04.:39:07.

about to do that. Of what is it that is keeping them home if they want to

:39:08.:39:11.

work? It is the lack of meaningful and worthwhile well-remunerated

:39:12.:39:14.

flexible work. They know if they work outside the home, they can't

:39:15.:39:17.

afford the childcare. Thank you both very much.

:39:18.:39:19.

Now to the bit of the programme that I certainly have been waiting for.

:39:20.:39:24.

As no-one can read knows, the American novelist, Donna Tartt is

:39:25.:39:26.

one of the most exciting perpetrators of fiction in the

:39:27.:39:30.

world. The Seek re History somehow managed to be both an international

:39:31.:39:36.

best-seller and a cult classic. -- the Secret History. It came out 20

:39:37.:39:40.

years ago and her latest, only her third novel, the Goldfifshling is

:39:41.:39:47.

published next week. She rarely gives interviews. Kirsty leapt at

:39:48.:39:51.

the chance and leapt into a plane to New York.

:39:52.:39:55.

I can write anywhere. I can write curled newspaper a corner in a spare

:39:56.:40:02.

airchair -- armchair in somebody's house. I write on the Madison Avenue

:40:03.:40:09.

bus. I write all over the place. Always have been able to. In the

:40:10.:40:13.

bathtub. I can write anywhere. In the library? I can write in the

:40:14.:40:20.

library. I wrote a lot of Goldfinch in the New York Public Library. In

:40:21.:40:26.

the Allen Room there, which was wonderful. That because there were

:40:27.:40:33.

wrenches books. What makes the -- because there were reference books

:40:34.:40:38.

there? I know a lot of writers would be horrified to be in a public

:40:39.:40:41.

space. If you need a character all you have to do is look up at people

:40:42.:40:45.

walking back and forth and it is like being an artist sketching in

:40:46.:40:51.

the a sidewalk cafe. People, walk-on characters, everybody you need is

:40:52.:40:57.

right there. Of course, books - this was a book for which I had to read a

:40:58.:41:02.

lot. If you are at home, for example, if you are in the

:41:03.:41:06.

countryside, do you a a routine? Do you write every day? Every now and

:41:07.:41:10.

then life will intervene. I write every day. If I have guests I will

:41:11.:41:16.

slip away to my little room where I work and, always, yes. You are a

:41:17.:41:24.

net-taker, then, too? I ka area anotebook wherever I go -- I carry.

:41:25.:41:27.

If I don't write it down when I think of it, I will never think of

:41:28.:41:34.

it again. Most of my notes are "bits of the mind's string too short to

:41:35.:41:38.

use" which is a phrase that has been used. So many of my notes are bits

:41:39.:41:45.

and bobs and little magpie gleamings and glintings and they won't turn up

:41:46.:41:49.

in any piece of finished work. What about at night? Are you a night

:41:50.:41:53.

writer? I do. A night writer. I like that. I do. Well t depends - if I

:41:54.:41:59.

have had a hard day I will quit, I will knock-off and go do something

:42:00.:42:04.

else. But if I'm - if I'm on a run, doing well, I'm like a gambler, I

:42:05.:42:08.

don't want to get up from the table. You have written, then, if you are

:42:09.:42:12.

saying you write every day. Yes. You have more or less written solidly

:42:13.:42:17.

for the past 21 years. I have written solidly. But I have written

:42:18.:42:23.

solidly in scraps. Not every day do I sit down and write a tremendous

:42:24.:42:29.

block of finished prose. But I'm always fiddling around and writing

:42:30.:42:33.

little bit and bobs, sometimes when I'm out and about wane my notebook

:42:34.:42:39.

in a pocket it is bits and bobs. When I say I can write on the bus, I

:42:40.:42:47.

don't imagine I'm writing pages of finished proseb things will occur to

:42:48.:42:50.

me and very often they are the germs of things that will become pages of

:42:51.:42:54.

prose. That's writing too. Do you ever think you have made too many

:42:55.:42:59.

sacrifices for this? It is not a sacrifice. I feel lucky I'm able to

:43:00.:43:04.

devote this amount of time to doing doing what I do. It is what I think

:43:05.:43:07.

about all the time. I'm obsessed. Are you really? You seem quite

:43:08.:43:12.

balanced to me? Um, well - well, I mean you are encountering me when I

:43:13.:43:18.

have just finished a book, not in the middle. Maybe I wouldn't be

:43:19.:43:22.

quite so balanced when I'm working. In the same way as you hit great

:43:23.:43:29.

streaks. How do you hit bad streaks? Of? Of thinking - the last 50 pages

:43:30.:43:34.

I have to strike. Absolutely. There was a point in this book where I

:43:35.:43:39.

realised I had taken a bad turn and it was just about eight months of

:43:40.:43:43.

work. I realised to really get to where you knead to go, sometimes you

:43:44.:43:48.

must run through the other options. There was no way that I could have

:43:49.:43:54.

gotten to that point, had I not spent those eight months. They are

:43:55.:43:57.

invisible, not in the book but I needed to spend them in order to be

:43:58.:44:01.

where - to get to where I was, yeah. Does that mean that in that way you

:44:02.:44:05.

keep your sense of balance because you know it is not in vain?

:44:06.:44:10.

Hemingway used the metaphor of - and it is very correct - of an iceberg,

:44:11.:44:17.

even if you obviously only see it. With writing sometimes you only see

:44:18.:44:20.

the tip. Everything else will be cut but there is the sense of weight

:44:21.:44:24.

underneath the water. The real world is there, even though it's not going

:44:25.:44:31.

to be in fl verbatim, which you have done -- in there.

:44:32.:44:36.

But still I was lonely. It was Borris I missed. The whole impulsive

:44:37.:44:41.

mess of him, gloomy, reckless, hot tempered, I a Paulingly thoughtless.

:44:42.:44:48.

-- appallingly. Borris, peal pale and pasty, with his gnawed down

:44:49.:44:56.

finger nails. Borris, Budding alcohol influshes f fluent curser in

:44:57.:45:00.

four languages who snatched food from my plate when he felt like it

:45:01.:45:05.

and who nodded off on the floor, face red like he had been slapped.

:45:06.:45:09.

You want people to read your books. What do you want them to read them

:45:10.:45:14.

for? Fist, I want them to have fun. Reading is no good, unless it is

:45:15.:45:18.

fun. -- first. What I wallsant is - it is the one

:45:19.:45:23.

quality I look for in books. It is hard to find but I love that

:45:24.:45:28.

childhood quality of just that gleeful, greedy reading, can't get

:45:29.:45:33.

enough of it, what is happening to these people, the breathless turning

:45:34.:45:37.

of the pages. That's what I want in a book. But I also want something

:45:38.:45:41.

that's well-constructed, too. I like to be able to drop down. Dicksens

:45:42.:45:49.

goes so fast, like lightening, but at the same time any sentence you

:45:50.:45:53.

can lift up and it is a marvel and a miracle. So, to me, I want those two

:45:54.:45:58.

qualities. The two qualities of any great art. Density and speed.

:45:59.:46:03.

Density and speed. You also bring secrets. Your books are about

:46:04.:46:08.

secrets. I guess they are. I never thought about that. But all books

:46:09.:46:12.

have miseries at their heart. Every book has some secret. There is

:46:13.:46:16.

always a secret. Donna Tartt thank you very much. Thank you. That was

:46:17.:46:20.

Donna Tartt talking to Kirsty. A longer version of that interview for

:46:21.:46:26.

the Review Show is on the iPlayer. Tomorrow's front pages, many papers

:46:27.:46:32.

are interested in a speech by the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt b

:46:33.:46:34.

grandparents and old people being neglected. On the Mail, the

:46:35.:46:39.

Independent and Telegraph front pages and the Daily Mirror is

:46:40.:46:42.

exercised still about energy bills as is the Guardian.

:46:43.:46:46.

That's all from us for tonight. Before we g as if life wasn't

:46:47.:46:56.

miserable enough, Morrissy has revealed that he was once asked to

:46:57.:47:08.

play the part of Dot Cotton's son in EastEnders.

:47:09.:47:13.

Well, heavens to Betsy, we've only gone and found the screentest.

:47:14.:47:16.

# Heavens knows I'm miserable now... # Every day is like Sunday

:47:17.:47:39.

# Every day is like... # EASTENDERS THEME TUNE

:47:40.:47:49.

hello the potential for widespread fog first thing on Friday.

:47:50.:47:55.

A lotted of low cloud, the odd spot or two of rain. More significant

:47:56.:47:59.

rain guess in the west. It will be heavy and persistent perhaps into

:48:00.:48:02.

Northern Ireland. Really we are just looking at some bits and pieces of

:48:03.:48:05.

rain through western fringes of Scotland. A fair amount of cloud and

:48:06.:48:09.

still a chilly feel with the breeze coming from a north-westerly

:48:10.:48:12.

direction. Bits and pieces of rain as kro the Lake District and to the

:48:13.:48:17.

west of the Pennines. Head further east and it'll stay predominantly

:48:18.:48:23.

dry, quite mild. The odd spot or two of rain but nothing significant.

:48:24.:48:26.

Brightness along the south coast. The rain more persistent, albeit

:48:27.:48:32.

fairly patchy, the further south and west you come. Here mild with 15 or

:48:33.:48:37.

16 the high. A similar story for Wales. Overcast with showery

:48:38.:48:42.

outbreaks of rain. Rain moves north overnight Friday into Saturday. It

:48:43.:48:45.

tends to anchor itself across Scotland. Showers easing away from

:48:46.:48:51.

the south-east corner. Blustery showers across England, Wales and

:48:52.:48:54.

Northern Ireland for the start of the weekend. Let'slike at some of

:48:55.:48:58.

our major cities. For Scotland and northern England, Saturday will be

:48:59.:49:01.

the worst day, brighter and drier on Sunday. By contrast further south,

:49:02.:49:05.

lighter showers on Saturday. The showers become more heavier and

:49:06.:49:08.

perhaps frequent on Sunday.

:49:09.:49:10.

An exclusive investigation into the attacks at the Westgate shopping mall in Nairobi; an interview with the energy secretary on rising fuel bills; and Kirsty Wark talks to author Donna Tartt. Jeremy Paxman presents.


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