08/11/2013 Newsnight


08/11/2013

Syrian rebels demand help. The maverick Tory MP pushing for a Euro referendum. The Iranian atom bomb talks. Neil Gaiman meets JJ Abrams. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Tonight we talk to one of the rebel commanders in Syria who

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Tonight we talk to one of the rebel to eat them. A Conservative MP who

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wants to oblige his own party to hold a referendum on whether we

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should leave the EU next year. What's he about? And one for the

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geeks, Star Trek and soon to be Star Wars director JJAbrams sits down and

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talks science fiction in books and films. What are the rest of us

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missing. Do you feel visual effects have reached some realisim level.

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When you look at movies you start to see a kind of almost Kleined scopic

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effect of -- collide scopic effect and you don't know where to look,

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there is so much happening. It emerged today that the United States

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is bringing home the USSNimet, the emerged today that the United States

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hear less andless of the forces fighting the dictatorship, because

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they discourage foreign journalists through kidnapping and torture and

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threats. The patience with many of the rebels with the western

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Governments who claim to be on their side has run out. Four stories of

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pain and loss. As you go up the stairs in this makeshift

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rehabilitation centre for sick and wounded Syrians in Turkey, every

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door discloses a scene of broking lives. They are living now virtually

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without possessions in a foreign country. In London, Geneva, Is

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Istanbul, Syrian politicians and exiled politicians are arguing about

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how to end the war. But the rebellion started without them, and

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they won't decide when it ends. It is commanders in

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they won't decide when it ends. It commanders is breaking free. Colonel

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Abdul has resigned as head of the Free Syrian Army in Aleppo, and told

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Newsnight the west has betrayed his forces by doing a deal with

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President Assad to get rid of chemical weapons. TRANSLATION: When

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Mr Obama says chemical weapons are a red line, that gives Assad a green

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light to use conventional weapons, ballistic missile, scud missile,

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figers planes like MiG, helicopter, rocket launchers and tanks. All

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these can be used by this regime to kill the Syrian people. So the

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western stance has been very negative towards the Syrian

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revolution. As Syrians we think the west is supporting the criminal

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Assad regime. west is supporting the criminal

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head of the Islamist Talhed Brigade, to defend a town against the Assad

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forces, it was eventually lost because the rebels weren't united.

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And the regime, backed by Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon was far better

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armed. TRANSLATION: Of course in terms of weapons and ammunition we

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have not received anything at all. Some communications equipment,

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that's all, and some ready meals from the US. How many ready meals?

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TRANSLATION: I don't know, because the fighters refused to eat them. !

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CLAIL Now a new rebel line-up is being formed, including this senior

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commander who has travelled to meet me. It is a line-up of Islamist,

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some were in the western-approved Free Syrian Army, now they are

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talking of breaking away. Some Free Syrian Army, now they are

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powers are more worried by Islamics concerns than the dictatorship.

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TRANSLATION: Does the world have double standards and only interested

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in the length of somebody's beard. That is all they see, not the amount

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of blood that was spilt. Even if there is religious extremism in

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Syria, that is natural, we ask the world to help get rid of Assad but

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nobody listened, so we rely on good alone. Would you be happy to fight

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with the extremists if they were happy to fight with you?

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TRANSLATION: Yes, I'm ready to fight side-by-side with them to bring the

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regime down. Western policies based on the idea that there is a moderate

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mainstream in Syria, inbetween regime loyalists and radical

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Islamists. Among ordinary Syrians there certainly is, but among

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Islamists. Among ordinary Syrians of a successful peace conference

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become ever slimmer. TRANSLATION: I don't think it will succeed, while

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the regime continues to kill people, the air force bombs people from the

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air and directs artillery fire at them. I don't think under such

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circumstances anybody can go to negotiations or peace talks with

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such a criminal regime. That certainly is how the wounded at the

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rehab centre feel. You might think their suffering would make them want

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an end to the war. In fact, it has made them all the more insistent

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that their victory should be complete. Tim joins us now. What are

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the rebels up to there? Well there are endless meetings going on

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Army, backed politically by the West, or whether they want to

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break-away into a new Islamist group that might even be called the Army

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of Mohammed. There are many here trying to do all they can to stop

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that, they fear it would reduce support and sympathy for the rebels

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still more. Are they going to make it to the peace talks in Geneva?

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There are endless talks about that as well in Istanbul they will be

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going on all weekend among exiled Syrian politicians. Many of whom

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lack credibility among the fighters on the ground. And maybe it is

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because they lack legitimacy, they are unlikely to give any clear

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answers maybe for fear of stabbing in the back the people back home. At

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most they will say yes they will go but only in impossible conditions

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which President Assad agrees to but only in impossible conditions

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admiring it was to go and see it. He might have felt the same about the

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House of Commons today when one MP after another rose to talk and talk

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and talk for as long as possible to try to stuff the chances of a

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Private Members Bill passing through parliament. The subject of the

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proposed law was the old Conservative source of grief, what

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is the point of Britain belonging to the EU. This Conservative MP wanted

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to force the Government to hold a referendum before the next election.

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David Grossman watched it AUCHLT -- all. It is not the most obvious TV

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hit ever. A political drama about Danish politics in Danish.

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But Borgen is nevertheless back for another season. MPs apparently love

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it. It could have done with some subtitles in the Commons today, the

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debate subtitles in the Commons today, the

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following 60 years of Franco-German reconciliation and EU achievement

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would never have occurred. That is a matter I believe organisations

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particularly veterans' organisations, under new schedule 2

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(J) should be properly consulted on. MPs were discussing whether to have

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a referendum on the EU. As a certain Danish play nearly had it to be in

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or not to be in! In the role of Prince was James Warden, a

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Conservative MP who came top in the ballot of backbench MPs, his prize,

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precious Commons time, with which to introduce a bill. He wants to pass a

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law requiring the UK to have a Europe referendum by 2017. Despite

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having previously opposed a referendum, David Cameron now wants

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one. But can't give Government time to the bill because he's in a

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coalition with Nick Clegg who doesn't want a referendum, despite

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the fact doesn't want a referendum, despite

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the European Union. What this is... It is not? What are they talking

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about? They are talking about giving Conservatives a retail offer they

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can sell on the doorstep saying our pledges to give you referendums on

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the European Union are real and bona fide. And their's aren't. A further

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complication is one Conservative MP, Adam Afreye is trying to bring

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forward the referendum to this side of the general election. Some

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interpret this as a rather naked attempt to destablise David Cameron.

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It strikes me the majority of our constituents and the British people

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want a referendum before the next election. I have never known a time

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in British politics when the politic Establishment has been so

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dissecretaried, so remote and in opposition and -- disconnected and

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remote and out-of-touch and in opposition of the British public.

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The Prime opposition of the British public.

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case it proves electorally unpopular. Today we saw dozens of

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time-sapping interventions and amendments. We join the action as

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the tellers are about to report one of these nail-biting votes. The ayes

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to the right, 299, the noes to the left, zero. Yes, that's right, not

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even the person who tabled the amendment voted for it. World class

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time wasting? Sadly, not even close. In the mother of parliaments they

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insist that speeches are at least vaguely to the point. Tonight girls

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you are here, you girls don't get to pick the book so I got to pick green

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eggs and ham. No such nit-picking and fussiness in the US, if you are

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sitting comfortably, here is part of the recent debate on health. That

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Sam I am, I do not like that Sam I am.

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Sam I am, I do not like that Sam I Ladbrokes are giving on your

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amendment being passed? I don't know. I will tell you, it is 100-1,

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that is the same as the chances of JAB could be RRhys-Mogg being leader

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of the party? I know it is tough to get it tabled. But I'm trying to

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give it a voice this side of the election which is what people want.

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You know this talk about you being future leader of the party. You know

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all this talk? Sorry the question is? You do know all the talk? What I

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was trying to do today Jeremy as I was trying to make sure the British

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people got a say in the European Union referendum this side of the

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election. It occurred to us you are a unifying figure, there are not

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many people who could get Bill Cash and David Cameron on the same side

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in a and David Cameron on the same side

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were going to win the election there would be a certain referendum

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wouldn't there? I hope we will win the election and we should work very

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hard to do that. What I was saying in my 90 seconds in the debate, what

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I was saying is this, the only way to guarantee that British people

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have a say on Europe is to deliver it within this parliament. That was

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the point I was making. That is what the amendment seeks to do. Because I

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might lose the next election? It is better to have a bird in the hand

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than promise things for the future, when we don't know what the election

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outcome will be or the circumstances at the time. Do you think you might

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stand a better chance of winning the election with a different leader?

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David Cameron is doing a tremenduously good job in incredibly

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difficult circumstance, come on, he has to wake up every morning

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thinking about Nick Clegg. He has a challenging economic environment.

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There are troubles abroad and at home. He's doing a good job in

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difficult circumstance, he is the Prime Minister. What this is about,

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what this is want. But they are going to get it?

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If the Conservatives win the election David Cameron will

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certainly. If they win the next election? Can you predict the

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future, it is very hard. But if we win the election then of course,

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David, I completely trust him to deliver the referendum in 2017. The

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problem is we don't know what the outcome of the election will be.

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That is why in many ways, and the lone star of the left says this as

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well, in many ways you either want to have the referendum sooner to

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restore business certainty and confidence and be back together as a

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nation and have a democratic mandate for our Prime Minister to conduct

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the negotiations or the withdrawal, or you want to have it a long time

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down the road. What we need is certainty, businesses need

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certainty, the people want this, and they think it is better if it comes

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within this parliament. But you are just adding to the uncertainty? No,

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if my amendment passes and just adding to the uncertainty? No,

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crying out for a long time. How many amendments are there? I have tabled

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the amendment and the Labour Party have put one in. The fate of that is

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in the speakser's office and the MPs as to whether it is called for a

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vote and whether people will vote for it. Bill Cash is saying it is

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nuts? He doesn't say that. We get on very well indeed. Bill Cash has some

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concerns and rightly about specifying a precise date. That is

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when it comes to it, it may be we vote on a Devon bill to have a

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referendum in 2014. Do you he have any idea how many people support

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this idea in your party? There are many, it is about what people do on

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the day if there is a vote. I can't guarantee that. I'm fighting tooth

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and nail and it has been pretty hard work,

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and nail and it has been pretty hard guaranteed within this parliament.

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You are asking me can I predict the future, I don't know if the speaker

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will collect it to be spoken on. I'm not asking you to predict the future

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but you can't put a figure on it, can you, is it dozens, you can't

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even tell me if it is the fingers of one hand? I can tell you many MPs if

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it comes to a vote will support the amendment. I'm hoping that every MP

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will look at their constituents and listen to the public opinion, where

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80% want a referendum, 55% want it is this side of the election and

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even in the Conservative Party 57% of Conservatives want a referendum

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before 2017. So I'm trying to be the voice of the people, the voice of my

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party, to give MPs the final chance, this is the last chance to actually

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have a referendum within this parliament. Thank you very much. It

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has been a pleasure. In a moment. Oh! How

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has been a pleasure. In a moment. about an imminent nuclear deal with

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Iran. John Kerry's bucket of cold water was in remarkable contrast to

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suggestions that sanctions against Iran were about to be relaxed. A

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prospect that got the Israelis pretty livid. How realistic is a

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lasting deal and what would be acceptable to the hardline Iranian

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clerics. A spokesman for Iran's nuclear

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negotiators before 2005 joins us from Princen to university. What --

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Princen to university. What to you thi are the chances? The chances are

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high. I believe we have had the most serious negotiations between Iran

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and the world powers in the last six or seven years. Already they have

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agreed about the principles of the final deal. Also they have discussed

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the details. What is left final deal. Also they have discussed

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change is about the US position in 2003-2005 when I was a member of the

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negotiation team, the US red line was no enrichment. After President

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Obama was elected in 2009 the US straight line has been changed. Now

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the red line is no nuclear bomb, this is something which Iran can

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live with, this red line. That is why after the Iranian special

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elections the political atmosphere internationally completely changed.

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It opened the door for serious negotiations. Iran put a very

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comprehensive package on the table on October 15/16 negotiations in

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Geneva. In the last round of talk, just two days ago they he discussed

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the details. -- they discussed the details. The two parties have a very

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clear transparency measures. Iran would be

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fully co-operative on transparency measures. Also Iran would be ready

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to co-operate with the world powers on confidence building measures that

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Iranian nuclear programmes would remain peaceful forever. There would

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be no breakout to our weaponisation. These are two big achievements on

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the nuclear talks. At the same time they have understood they need to

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respect the rights of Iran on their non- on their NPT. You sound quite

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optimistic? I'm optimistic because the principles are agreed already.

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The framework is agreed this is for the first time they have agreed on

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The framework is agreed this is for the US ability to lift the sanctions

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in return of Iranian overtures on transparency measures and no

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breakout measures. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Now a date

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made in geek heaven, the author of Never Where, The Graveyard Book,

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meets JJ Abrams, the man chosen to rehabilitate the Star Wars franchise

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and director of Star Trek. He's coauthor of an unusual book,

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described as a library book, covered in scribbles with odd scraps of

:23:25.:23:28.

paper hidden inside it. We were intrigued so went to see him. Show

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us what somebody buying the book will experience? You open the book

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and you Jews cover there are wage -- you discover there

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and you Jews cover there are wage -- things like letters that go into

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more detail. How as an author do you go about building something like

:24:02.:24:07.

that? The text had been written first. As I was going along thinking

:24:08.:24:10.

about the margins story, there would be moments in the Text of Ship that

:24:11.:24:16.

would clearly offer themselves up. That would clear trigger, to me,

:24:17.:24:22.

trigger some moment between them. It wasn't calculated it was

:24:23.:24:27.

impro-advised. One of the things I loved was the feeling that you come

:24:28.:24:33.

right out at the end of the introduction and have your

:24:34.:24:36.

characters writing backwards and forwards and essentially telling the

:24:37.:24:39.

reader there is no wrong way to read the book. I think that the key to it

:24:40.:24:45.

is that we knew that everyone would approach it differently and the

:24:46.:24:47.

truth is that S approach it differently and the

:24:48.:25:07.

chunks, you have made something that demands attention. Is there

:25:08.:25:11.

something faintly counterintuitive about that at this point? Possibly.

:25:12.:25:15.

It seems to me it might be an oversimplification. I don't know

:25:16.:25:20.

actually how true that is. Get to your point! I'm kidding. You have

:25:21.:25:27.

been responsible here for the creation of a book which treats the

:25:28.:25:33.

book as object in a way, but it hasn't been treated before? The idea

:25:34.:25:37.

came out of the object. I found a book at Los Angeles International

:25:38.:25:42.

Airport, 15 or so years ago, a paper back sitting on a bench, I picked it

:25:43.:25:46.

up and opened it up and someone had written "to whom ever finds this

:25:47.:25:50.

book read it, take it somewhere else and leave it for someone to find

:25:51.:25:55.

it". It was signed "Janet" and she left it there for someone. The idea

:25:56.:26:00.

of a book having a like spoke to me for some

:26:01.:26:17.

of a book having a like spoke to me SEENGS goal, not anything else and

:26:18.:26:22.

it was a natural evolution of a notion. People are predicting the

:26:23.:26:26.

death of a book and the end of the book, the idea that all books are

:26:27.:26:30.

becoming electronic and predicting the end of libraries, and you have

:26:31.:26:33.

created something that has to be a book and it is set in a library? For

:26:34.:26:40.

some reason the analogue object there is such incredible comfort in

:26:41.:26:45.

a physical book, I know it sounds silly but there is something about

:26:46.:26:48.

holding the Boca and being able to see -- the book and being able to

:26:49.:26:51.

see how far you have gone and the book mark and the g-eared page.

:26:52.:26:56.

There is something about the experience of holding the book that

:26:57.:27:03.

is so comforting and I think in an increasingly digital world there is

:27:04.:27:06.

huge value in the tactile and analogue, that is something "S

:27:07.:27:08.

"celebrates. Do you analogue, that is something "S

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it hadn't been written with the air and thoughtfulness -- care and

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thoughtfulness and skill that Doug brings to his work it would be a

:27:34.:27:37.

gimmick. I have seen it in the work of so many people I admire,

:27:38.:27:39.

including yourself where you think this is the thing. But in lesser

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hands it is transparent, can you see through it and you know what it is

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and it doesn't have any import. I think that done well it can be both.

:27:50.:27:53.

So what I would like to think is it is something that is neither high or

:27:54.:28:00.

low but it is this kind of, you know,am malMUS cocktail of an idea

:28:01.:28:03.

that is quick to understand, but an experience that is, I think, rich

:28:04.:28:08.

and deep and that is all thanks to Doug. Everything you have done to

:28:09.:28:12.

date that people know you for, first of all on the small screen and then

:28:13.:28:16.

on the large screen. How does it feel to have no screen? It is funny,

:28:17.:28:19.

somebody asked me story tellers for a film or TV

:28:20.:28:39.

actually was fairly close to this, but the process of making it was a

:28:40.:28:47.

much more intimate and far less political collaboration, which made

:28:48.:28:54.

it that much more wonderful. When a meteor struck in Russia earlier this

:28:55.:28:58.

year people commented it looked like something from a JJ Abrams film. Do

:28:59.:29:04.

you think visual effects have reached a realisim limit at this

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point? I think, and I'm as quilty as anyone, you start to see a

:29:10.:29:16.

kaleidoscopic effect of visual effects and it is happening now

:29:17.:29:20.

because you can do that. There is one focus and one thing. If you look

:29:21.:29:26.

at old films and the visual effects, like Matt Paintings, and Albert whit

:29:27.:29:48.

at old films and the visual effects, there was an incredible efficiency

:29:49.:29:50.

of dialogue because you knew there would be cards coming up in silent

:29:51.:29:55.

films. You had characters saying things that were essential. Once

:29:56.:29:58.

there was sound you could be loose e and there have been many, many films

:29:59.:30:03.

that have used sound and you wonder sometimes does everything need to be

:30:04.:30:06.

said that is said. I think we're past this kind of moment of hoping

:30:07.:30:13.

we can do things visually in movies. We can do anything now. The

:30:14.:30:17.

essential question now is what is essential? We hear rumours there may

:30:18.:30:22.

be British casting of stars wars, is this true? It wouldn't be Star Wars

:30:23.:30:30.

if there wasn't fantastic actors who happened to be British. I think

:30:31.:30:33.

we're doing our job and looking everywhere for the best possible

:30:34.:30:37.

actors for the roles. Nothing is more important, there are things as

:30:38.:30:40.

important, but nothing is more important than casting

:30:41.:31:00.

important, but nothing is more project. Even as I speak we're

:31:01.:31:04.

tweeting a link to an extended version of that interview on our

:31:05.:31:08.

YouTube channel. That's for another week, last week we made it on to the

:31:09.:31:14.

water cooler show of the moment, Channel 4's Gogglebox which records

:31:15.:31:19.

the reactions of people watching television shows. We didn't do so

:31:20.:31:22.

well this week, I wonder why, I guess we will never know? Good

:31:23.:31:32.

night. I'm getting bored with it now. I was bored after five minutes.

:31:33.:31:44.

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