06/01/2014 Newsnight


06/01/2014

With Jeremy Paxman. Are threats of new cuts just electioneering? Plus, the latest on the situation in Fallujah and 12 Years a Slave director Steve McQueen.


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Transcript


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You Hello, happy new year. Unless electioneering politicians get on

:00:09.:00:14.

your nerves in which case you have 16 months of irritation to look

:00:15.:00:18.

forward to and photo shoots. The Chancellor is keen for us to know

:00:19.:00:22.

there are plenty more cuts on the way and that those on benefits can

:00:23.:00:28.

take a lot more pain. I will be asking this Treasury Minister why he

:00:29.:00:31.

wants to pick on the most vulnerable people in society? Will this

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brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking very

:00:38.:00:41.

slowly towards the enemy, Sir? How could you possibly know that, it is

:00:42.:00:46.

classified information. Has our understanding of the First World War

:00:47.:00:49.

been distorted by left-wing prejudice? The Education Secretary

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suggests this man might have something to do with it. I saw you

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talking with her? Tell me? I cannot speak about what did not occur. And

:01:03.:01:07.

the film they are saying is the most unflinching portrayal of American

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slavery et. We talk to its director. I don't make films for white people!

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I just don't! My film is about us rather than specific group of

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people. The political new year began today, not that it looks very

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different to the last one. Indeed the Chancellor of the Exchequer's

:01:35.:01:36.

promises that next year will look much the same too. He believes

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another ?25 billion has to be cut from public spending after the next

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election. About half of that from welfare. Cue Nick Clegg, leader of

:01:47.:01:52.

the party he's suppose to be governing with saying cuts like that

:01:53.:01:57.

will be a monumental mistake. Our political thor Allegra Stratton is

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away having given birth to a son and Emily Maitless is covering.

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The sound of Christmas past, the removal of the fir and tree and

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amidst the odd bauble or two Westminster welcomed the day they

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reassuringly dubbed "the most depressing of the year". A bit of a

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back to school feeling, washed out and defeated by the weather before

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it had begun. But today is not just any day, you understand, today is an

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historic 16 months and... Let's see, seven hours until the polls open to

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the general election. I point that out in case some how you failed to

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notice the sound of the starting gun in the mounting political rhetoric

:02:45.:02:52.

of the last 24 hours. The high-visibility Chancellor, for

:02:53.:02:54.

example, unmissable in Birmingham. He began the day with a warning of

:02:55.:03:00.

hard truths and stark figures. ?25 billion of spending cuts, he stated,

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would be taken in the first two years of the next parliament, nearly

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half of those cuts will come from one department. Welfare cannot be

:03:09.:03:12.

protected from further substantial cuts. I can tell you today that on

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the Treasury's current forecasts, ?12 billion of further welfare cuts

:03:19.:03:21.

are needed in the first two years of the next parliament. Yesterday the

:03:22.:03:26.

Conservatives committed to the triple-lock on pensions for the

:03:27.:03:30.

elderly, protecting the way they rise through the next parliament.

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This means George Osborne's cuts to welfare will have to come from

:03:34.:03:39.

elsewhere. Welfare is by far the largest departmental budget in terms

:03:40.:03:45.

of spending, a massive ?2 O2 billion of all. Of that ?63 billion is the

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state pension, now protected by the PM. Another ?48 billion goes to

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pensioners on top of the state pension, those are benefits that

:03:57.:04:02.

haven't been explicitly ring-fenced for the parliament. What is left,

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?29 tax credit, ?18 billion disability benefits or ?17 billion

:04:09.:04:12.

on housing. If you exclude anything that goes to pensioners you have

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another ?90 billion that goes to working-age people. There are lots

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of benefits there, you can take more child benefit away if you want. You

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reduce any of these things, most of that cut will hit relatively

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low-income people. What do the Chancellor's coalition partners make

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of this morning's announcement. Minutes after the speech, the new

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girl asked the deputy PM. Welcome, it is your first day! REPORTER: It

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is, and a big announcement, would you be happy then to sign up to ?12

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billion of welfare cuts? No, we haven't and we won't during this

:04:49.:04:51.

coalition Government. Because what we have said is that tax, for

:04:52.:04:54.

instance, has to play a role, of course it does, and tax on those,

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and tax, like any fair approach to tax, is asking people, particularly

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those with the broadest shoulders and greatest wealth to make a small

:05:04.:05:07.

additional contribution. We believe you can finish that job but do it

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for fairly than the ideolgically driven approach that the

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Conservatives appeared to set out. Come on Nick, tell us what you

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really think! I think that is economically and lob sided balanced,

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a monumental mistake... Extreme in its undertaking... Unbalanced and

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unfair. This might be part of the differenciation strategy, but it is

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already sounding turbo-charged, with friends like these, who needs an

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opposition? Whether or not we need cuts on that scale will depend upon

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whether we can get the economy growing more strongly, whether we

:05:42.:05:43.

can get young people back to work and whether he will face up to fair

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decisions, as we have advocated to take away the windswepter allowance

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from the richest pensioners, at the moment fairness steams to be the

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issue George Osborne is looking left, right and centre. Today was

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about hard truth, but maybe not the ones the Chancellor had in mind.

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Don't think it was just economic, today was pure politics. The

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Conservatives would like the next election to be 1992 all over again.

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An election they won in hard times. So the message today was cautious

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and slightly scary. We're not there yet, he's trying to say, so don't

:06:19.:06:24.

even think about throwing us out. With us now is Sajid Javid the

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Conservative Financial Secretary to the Treasury, also here the Shadow

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Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Labour's Chris Leslie. ?12 billion

:06:33.:06:39.

reckoned to be saved from the welfare benefit, which benefits will

:06:40.:06:42.

be cut? We have set out today a strategy to deal with the economy

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and to make sure it continues to recover. That means continuing to

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make some very hard decision, that is what the Chancellor set out

:06:52.:06:54.

today. The hard work of the British people is paying off, we are not

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going to squander those efforts and we are faced with the choice.

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Britain is faced with a choice. We can go back to the bad old days of

:07:02.:07:05.

more borrowing and more debt, Labour's way, or go forward and

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continue to have a growing economy which means dealing with the hard

:07:09.:07:13.

truths. Do you remember what my question was, come on? I want to set

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the context, I will of course come to your question. A very important

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question. We have spending cuts this year and next year, which includes

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welfare cuts, and what the Chancellor set out today, beyond the

:07:25.:07:27.

next election, there is a further ?25 billion of cuts, ?12 billion

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will be welfare cuts. The Chancellor has given suggestions today about

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what kind of welfare cuts we are thinking of. But we're going to have

:07:36.:07:39.

to deal with the welfare budget, as we have just seen in your piece just

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now, it is still the second-largest item of Government spending, we are

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not able to bring the budgets books back into balance. This is a very

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important question, which benefits do you propose to cut? What we set

:07:53.:07:57.

out today, two benefits specifically, we are going to look

:07:58.:08:01.

at housing benefits for under-25s and people in council houses that

:08:02.:08:06.

earn more than ?26,000 a year. I will come to you in a second Chris

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Leslie, don't worry. Housing benefit for the under-25s, if you cut that

:08:12.:08:15.

how much money will you save? It won't lead to the whole ?12 billion,

:08:16.:08:19.

that is not our strategy. How much? We set out a process today of the

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types of cuts we are thinking of. We are not going to write our next

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election manifesto right now. But what we are going to do. Give us a

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rough idea? It depends on how you finally set out the policy and we

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have not set out every detail of that particular policy. It is

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something we are looking at. I'm not even asking to the nearest million,

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the nearest billion will do? Of a total ?12 billion that can be an

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important component of it, I'm not suggesting for a second it adds up

:08:52.:08:55.

to the ?12 billion, nor is the Chancellor suggesting that. What we

:08:56.:08:58.

are saying is these are the kind of tough decisions we need to make. It

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comes to nowhere near ?12 billion, it is somewhere under ?2 isn't it?

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Some of the estimates we have heard today from some of the economists is

:09:07.:09:12.

around the ?2 billion. It depends on the final detail. We have begun a

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very important process, which confronts these hard truths. I

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wonder if you have thought this through properly, let me show you

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this piece of tape, a young woman, 22 years old, lives in west London,

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this is what it would mean to her, this is how she depends on the

:09:30.:09:33.

benefit you propose to cut. Let's hear it? Growing up it felt I had to

:09:34.:09:37.

grow up fast. The disagreements with like my mum and my brothers and

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sisters is because like I told them that I was gay. I went upstairs to

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my room, all my stuff was packed up in boxes and I went downstairs and I

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said to my mum what are you doing. She said I didn't live here. I

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stayed between friends of friends, you are constantly moving, you don't

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feel safe, you don't feel stable. I just spoke to the council again and

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just finally it got through to them and practically I got place in

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Centrepoint. So it is about ?170 per month just to live here. But housing

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benefit helps towards actually me having a roof over my head. It is

:10:20.:10:24.

not a lifestyle choice for us. You need it. If you don't have it then

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you are homeless. Right, so if you cut housing benefit for

:10:30.:10:33.

under-25-year-olds, there is no money to pay for the place in the

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hostel which a girl like that has. Let me tell you, first of all there

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are many under-25-year-olds that work, they pay taxes which make the

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money that helps to pay these benefits. Indeed they are. Many of

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them live with parents or friends. Where as people under-25 that are

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not working are currently entitled to housing benefit as you have seen.

:10:59.:11:02.

What we need to do to make sure people like this young lady and many

:11:03.:11:05.

others have a better standard of living is making sure we have a

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growing economy and the economy continues to grow. We are only going

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to achieve that if we keep confronting the problems facing our

:11:13.:11:15.

country. We cannot go back to the bad old ways. We have to make tough

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decisions and if it is not welfare it has to come from somewhere else,

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those are equally tough decisions. She has just to hope for the

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benefits of a growing economy. Has she? Let me ask you another specific

:11:28.:11:32.

question, you cut housing benefits for under-25-year-olds, does that

:11:33.:11:34.

include those who have children? We haven't set out the details of this

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policy, nor were we going to today. What we are showing is we are

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willing to deal with the hard truths facing our country. We will confront

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these tough decisions and make sure our economy continues to grow and

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the recovery is not put at risk. Chris Leslie, how many of these

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proposed benefit cuts, you will probably be no more specific than Mr

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Javid has been now. But of the ?12 billion which these guys are going

:12:01.:12:04.

to cut from the welfare budget at the next election, how much would

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Labour cut? You gave Sajid Javid a moment to put it into context I

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require that. He has dreamt up this figure for ?25 billion for four

:12:17.:12:19.

years time. A sensible Government would look at the state of the

:12:20.:12:22.

economy and make decisions based on what the economy needs. The

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Conservatives, George Osborne, we know they are playing politics, they

:12:26.:12:29.

plucked this ?25 billion out of the air as part of a political game to

:12:30.:12:35.

some how create dividing lines. No cuts? No, and we have gone further,

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to be fair than any other opposition by saying we would not borrow

:12:39.:12:45.

further in 2015/16, the only year they have done this Spending Review

:12:46.:12:49.

for day-to-day spending. But the key thing is this, yes we will have to

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have cuts, but they have to have fair and support growth in the

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economy. That will be the dividing line between the parties. Specific

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example of the young woman we saw there, you would not cut the

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benefits of someone like that? It is a very good question. I'm asking

:13:04.:13:08.

you? Housing benefit under-25s, what about people leaving care, you

:13:09.:13:11.

mentioned the case in point. What would you do about it? I think what

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we need to do is for the housing benefit bill, it has gone up

:13:17.:13:20.

considerably under welfare costs that have risen because people's

:13:21.:13:24.

earnings have fallen. There is a lot of people in work who get housing

:13:25.:13:27.

benefit and that bill has gone up. If we dealt with the cost of living

:13:28.:13:31.

crisis we could reduce the housing benefit. Can you make a promise to

:13:32.:13:34.

that woman and others in her position that you would not make

:13:35.:13:37.

these cuts? I don't think it would be fair to hit her even further than

:13:38.:13:41.

she has already been suffering because of the cost of living

:13:42.:13:44.

crisis. You can make her a promise? It is the difference in political

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value, I happen to think in society you have to stand up for those?

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Vulnerable. You are making a pledge? We wouldn't do the bedroom tax, you

:13:51.:13:55.

look at the list. We're not talking about the bedroom tax? These are the

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examples of fairness versus unfairness, we wouldn't give a tax

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cut to the richest ?150,000 earners, which Sajid Javid decided to do in

:14:05.:14:10.

shape, cutting it from 50p to 45p at a time when people can't get food on

:14:11.:14:15.

the table, the foodbank queue, think about people struggling to heat

:14:16.:14:19.

homes. You have a very unfair society, made more unfair because of

:14:20.:14:22.

your uncaring approach to managing the economy and the cost of living

:14:23.:14:25.

crisis which is getting worse not better. What What we have heard from

:14:26.:14:31.

Chris is exactly whey said, an inability to confront the hard

:14:32.:14:35.

truths facing our country. More spending, more borrowing and more

:14:36.:14:39.

debt. That is the only policy he has. You have neglected growth. You

:14:40.:14:43.

were asked about housing benefit, the only policy that your party

:14:44.:14:47.

currently has on housing benefit that you have committed to and

:14:48.:14:51.

include in the next manifesto is increase it to make sure people have

:14:52.:14:55.

more rooms than they need in their home. That is the only policy they

:14:56.:14:58.

have. Do you understand the point I was making when their earnings fall,

:14:59.:15:01.

of course the housing benefit rise, the cost of living has an effect on

:15:02.:15:10.

the Welfare Bill. I want to turn to the panel, there was a moment when

:15:11.:15:13.

we saw something acutely political going on, what did you think it was

:15:14.:15:21.

Chris is right it is a dividing line speech which you can like or not. It

:15:22.:15:25.

is a dividing line speech on the deficit, trying to move the agenda

:15:26.:15:32.

back from the cogs -- cost of living issues raised before Christmas to

:15:33.:15:36.

the agenda on the deficit, which is the big one. It will face all the

:15:37.:15:40.

parties with difficult decisions. Ultimately it will face Labour with

:15:41.:15:43.

difficult decisions about what to cut, because there are billions of

:15:44.:15:47.

pounds that can't be covered by tax rises unless you are assuming

:15:48.:15:52.

massive tax rises. Obviously it will mean the Conservative Party goes

:15:53.:15:55.

into the election with a difficult message as well. Your adoring fans

:15:56.:16:01.

of course know who you are, I forgot to introduce you all, Lord Fink,

:16:02.:16:07.

John McTiernan, former Labour big wig, and Linda Jack from the Liberal

:16:08.:16:12.

Democrats. When you see this marking out of terrain, how will it play, do

:16:13.:16:20.

you think? I think what you have seen today was George Osborne going

:16:21.:16:24.

too far. He is a politician who is too clever by half. He could just

:16:25.:16:29.

have stuck the figure of ?25 billion out there and said to Labour what

:16:30.:16:32.

are you going to do and watched Labour struggle with the question

:16:33.:16:35.

you asked Chris, Chris has been asked to give a Labour manifesto

:16:36.:16:41.

today, when we're 16 months away from an election, it would have been

:16:42.:16:45.

a good ploy. To say ?12 billion to come out of the welfare budget, and

:16:46.:16:48.

no answer to the question which areas do you mean. I tell you what

:16:49.:16:51.

areas he means, that budget is benefits to children, child benefit

:16:52.:16:56.

and tax credit for children, it is benefits for disabled people, or it

:16:57.:17:02.

is housing benefit. ?12 billion ?1,000 a year. Most of it goes to

:17:03.:17:06.

old people? They have excluded that, they have said there is ?110 billion

:17:07.:17:10.

you can't touch. You have a small amount of money. I do not believe

:17:11.:17:15.

that George Osborne is going to go into an election actually with the

:17:16.:17:18.

kind of cuts that you would have to have to make ?12 billion from

:17:19.:17:23.

welfare. Unelectable, that is what a party would be, unelectable if they

:17:24.:17:27.

took the money from disabled people. Isn't the purpose of setting out the

:17:28.:17:30.

figure looked at stragically that Labour will also have to answer the

:17:31.:17:33.

question of how it is going to respond to that sort of figure. That

:17:34.:17:39.

is just taking the budget books from the OBR and reading out what the

:17:40.:17:43.

figure is. Labour will also have to have some response to that? The

:17:44.:17:46.

thing that intrigues me about the current situation is, you have a

:17:47.:17:50.

coalition Government which gives the Government of the day a large

:17:51.:17:54.

working majority in parliament, yet whenever a hard question comes up

:17:55.:17:57.

they say what will would Labour do, I tell you the answer, let Labour

:17:58.:18:02.

form a minority Government, you can't say I'm the Government. On the

:18:03.:18:06.

question of the coalition Government isn't it very bizarre indeed when

:18:07.:18:11.

the Deputy Prime Minister says the Chancellor of the Exchequer is

:18:12.:18:13.

talking rubbish? To be honest it is a long time I have said I agree with

:18:14.:18:19.

Nick but today I do. He has at last got back to what our core values are

:18:20.:18:23.

as Liberal Democrats when we say no-one should be enslaved by

:18:24.:18:27.

poverty, ignorance or conformity. The clip you just played, I would

:18:28.:18:32.

have expected a difference response from you. That young woman to live

:18:33.:18:36.

in those conditions, I have an 18-year-old foster daughter you are

:18:37.:18:39.

going to take her housing benefit away from you. You are hitting the

:18:40.:18:42.

most vulnerable when they are most vulnerable and you are doing no cost

:18:43.:18:47.

analysis, I never see any cost benefit analysis of what you

:18:48.:18:53.

propose. Ultimately, this is what the election will be about, clearly

:18:54.:18:55.

you are correct both of you that the Conservative Party has to be very

:18:56.:18:59.

careful as an answer about fairness, it does have to answer what the

:19:00.:19:03.

point of doing it is otherwise all people will see is cuts. That is a

:19:04.:19:06.

big electoral challenge for the Conservative Party. For the Liberal

:19:07.:19:09.

Democrats and Labour the figure remains ?25 billion, it has to be

:19:10.:19:13.

filled. Why does it remain. Where did that figure come from? Unless

:19:14.:19:17.

you decide to put up a lot of taxes? Unless the Liberal Democrats will go

:19:18.:19:20.

into the election saying that the deficit totals they have agreed to

:19:21.:19:25.

they don't agree any more. There was a report last week from the BMJ

:19:26.:19:29.

about the cost of malnutrition, children going into hospital with

:19:30.:19:34.

malnutrition, if you look at the cost benefit. That is what I'm

:19:35.:19:37.

saying, you can't look at the cuts without the consequences. If you

:19:38.:19:41.

start to look at how you make cuts sensible. The Liberal Democrats

:19:42.:19:46.

agreed to deficit totals and now the Government. Sorry Nick Clegg and

:19:47.:19:53.

Danny Alexander agreed! The Liberal Democrats have signed up. We are a

:19:54.:19:58.

democratic party, wait until our conference makes a decision on our

:19:59.:20:01.

manifesto. You are not speaking for the Liberal Democrats then. They are

:20:02.:20:04.

not either, because we don't have a decision come through the

:20:05.:20:09.

conference. We are democratic as a party. I think it would be hard for

:20:10.:20:13.

the Liberal Democrats, we now have a disagreement on this, it would be

:20:14.:20:17.

hard for them to walk away from the figures they agreed to. Those

:20:18.:20:22.

figures imply ?25 billion, perhaps the Labour Party will have slightly

:20:23.:20:25.

easier deficit terms, Chris says we don't know the exact figure, we know

:20:26.:20:29.

it will be many billions of pounds. The question will be for all the

:20:30.:20:32.

parties, I agree. The Conservative Party will have to have a response.

:20:33.:20:36.

How are they going to fill that? I would love it if it was not a

:20:37.:20:39.

difficulty for anyone that is not realistic. The problem you have got,

:20:40.:20:43.

and you have articulated it well, the problem is ordinary people

:20:44.:20:46.

seeing this see a Government that says they will take ?12 billion out

:20:47.:20:54.

of a specific set of benefits, but as has a minister that can't name a

:20:55.:21:01.

single benefit he will reduce. If we are having hard decisions let's have

:21:02.:21:05.

hard information. There is something else, I thought you chaps weren't

:21:06.:21:11.

going to take part in this conversation. There is something

:21:12.:21:13.

else, if George Osborne is right and the economy is starting to get

:21:14.:21:16.

better people are going to start feel and see the changes, the

:21:17.:21:21.

benefits perhaps. In those circumstances can you continue to

:21:22.:21:26.

talk as effectively about the need for cuts? Clearly obviously if the

:21:27.:21:30.

Conservative Party is going to run a "Britain's on the right track don't

:21:31.:21:35.

turn back election", you don't want to be at the point where people

:21:36.:21:38.

think you have reached the end of the track, you have to be saying

:21:39.:21:41.

there is a lot of work to do, that was what he was doing. I think the

:21:42.:21:44.

Conservative Party will have to effectively explain to home how

:21:45.:21:47.

deficit reduction will improve their living standards. That is a hard

:21:48.:21:53.

argument. They will have to link the argument about living standards to

:21:54.:21:56.

deficit. You are not persuading him sitting next to you? I think you

:21:57.:22:00.

have currently got the National Health Service going through its

:22:01.:22:05.

tightest spending constraints in the history of the National Health

:22:06.:22:08.

Service, the tightest spending restraints on any health service

:22:09.:22:14.

anywhere in the world over four or five years and you are going to then

:22:15.:22:17.

do it again for the next five years. It is unbelievable. It is

:22:18.:22:21.

unbelievable, most people with a brain can see something is going to

:22:22.:22:24.

give. You can't take the money from the kids, you can't take the money

:22:25.:22:30.

from the pensioners and people from disabilities. Even broadly, very,

:22:31.:22:34.

very vaguely outline it, I honestly don't understand it. I will have to

:22:35.:22:38.

stop you all there if I may. Thank you. Coming up:

:22:39.:22:44.

I don't want to survive. I want to live. The Prime Minister of Iraq was

:22:45.:22:54.

begging the people of Fallujah today to drive out the fors that have

:22:55.:23:00.

captured the town. Well he might, the cost of a town of so many

:23:01.:23:05.

American lives and lose it to an Al-Qaeda affiliate risks asking the

:23:06.:23:08.

question of what the whole war was for. Late 2004, ferocious urban

:23:09.:23:16.

warfare on the streets of Fallujah, plane troops trying to flush --

:23:17.:23:21.

American troops trying to flush out Al-Qaeda troops hiding inside. Ten

:23:22.:23:27.

years on and Fallujah once more out of control, Islamic militants taking

:23:28.:23:31.

over Government buildings, defying Baghdad. Has Al-Qaeda returned to

:23:32.:23:37.

its old stomping ground. Has the war in Syria some how fanned the flames

:23:38.:23:42.

of Iraq's burning sectarian embers. It is certainly the way the

:23:43.:23:46.

Government in Baghdad would like to see it. One of the main arguments to

:23:47.:23:51.

use is these areas have become, they use the word "infested" by elements

:23:52.:23:58.

from Al-Qaeda groups and fighters who are foreigner, even from outside

:23:59.:24:03.

Iraq. They want to clean them, clear that area from these fighters.

:24:04.:24:09.

Fallujah and Ramadi sit on Baghdad's western doorstep, behind them the

:24:10.:24:13.

vast empty province of Anbar stretching to the Syrian border,

:24:14.:24:22.

where another war is now almost three Years' old. Sunni militants

:24:23.:24:30.

battling against insurgents. Both countries having proclaimed

:24:31.:24:33.

allegance to Al-Qaeda. The Islamic state of Iraq and Syria, whose very

:24:34.:24:38.

name suggests a common purpose. It is tempting, perhaps, to see the two

:24:39.:24:41.

countries as two fronts in a bigger war. Tempting but probably

:24:42.:24:46.

misleading too. We see that Al-Qaeda and radical Jihadists are exploiting

:24:47.:24:51.

one popular alienation, both in Syria and Iraq to the absence of

:24:52.:24:58.

Government. And then three, an increased heightened sectarianism

:24:59.:25:01.

across the whole region. There may well be one organisation exploiting

:25:02.:25:06.

two distinct battlefields and finding similarities in each. But

:25:07.:25:10.

they are, at the moment, two separate conflicts, one driven by

:25:11.:25:13.

the incompetence and repression of the Government in Damascus, the

:25:14.:25:16.

other driven by the incompetence and repression of the Government in

:25:17.:25:20.

Baghdad. It could have been different, three years ago Iraq's

:25:21.:25:26.

Sunni minority deified Al-Qaeda and voted in parliamentary elections.

:25:27.:25:31.

Political participation, they hoped, might improve their lot, in a

:25:32.:25:34.

country now dominated by Shia politicians. But it didn't happen.

:25:35.:25:38.

Two years later amid mounting grievances there were protests on

:25:39.:25:44.

the streets of Ramadi Anbar's capital. Eventually broken up in a

:25:45.:25:50.

heavihanded Government operation. A crisis some say of the Prime

:25:51.:25:53.

Minister's own making. This is almost the ideal scenario for

:25:54.:25:57.

Al-Qaeda, recruiting small numbers of people but not being whole

:25:58.:26:00.

heartedly rejected by a wider population that voted in 2010, had

:26:01.:26:08.

that investment in the ballot box squadered by an Iraqi Government now

:26:09.:26:11.

running the election campaign for April 2014 on a very sectarian

:26:12.:26:19.

basis. And against a backdrop of extreme violence. This was the scene

:26:20.:26:26.

in Diala province three days ago, another massive car bomb, almost

:26:27.:26:29.

9,000 people were killed in Iraq last year, the deadliest since 2008.

:26:30.:26:37.

The Prime Minister, urging the people of Fallujah to expel the

:26:38.:26:41.

terrorists. But not everyone here is Al-Qaeda. There are plenty of local

:26:42.:26:46.

tribesmen equally willing to take on the Government. It is a messy three

:26:47.:26:51.

or four-way fight. With overwhelming fire power, the army will probably

:26:52.:26:58.

win, but at what cost? Here we are, 2014, the centinary of the outbreak

:26:59.:27:03.

of the First World War, all sorts of commemorative events are planned,

:27:04.:27:08.

amid much controversy about what is the appropriate tone to mark a

:27:09.:27:11.

catastrophe that took vast numbers of lives and turned out not to be a

:27:12.:27:16.

war to end wars. The Education Secretary, a man who can't see a

:27:17.:27:20.

sacred cow without ordering up the truck from the nearest abattoir

:27:21.:27:26.

added his tuppence in, inevitably the Daily Mail. He argued that apart

:27:27.:27:30.

from a pointless slaughter it had been a just war. This great

:27:31.:27:35.

blood-letting cost millions of lives, reshaped the societies of

:27:36.:27:39.

Europe, promoted revolution, enfranchised those previously denied

:27:40.:27:43.

the vote, and tragically sowed the seeds of future war. According to

:27:44.:27:48.

the Education Secretary, our understanding of the war is filtered

:27:49.:27:52.

through a series of predominantly left-wing prejudices about loins led

:27:53.:28:01.

by donkeys. Field Marshall Hague has formulated a tactical plan to ensure

:28:02.:28:07.

final victory in the feel. Would this brilliant plan involve us

:28:08.:28:10.

climbing out of our trenches and walking very slowly towards the

:28:11.:28:16.

enemy. How could you How could you know that it is classified. It is

:28:17.:28:20.

the same plan we used last time and 17-times before that. Michael Gove

:28:21.:28:25.

says this portrayal presents the war as a misbegotten shambles, a series

:28:26.:28:32.

of catastrophic mistakes perpetrated by an out-of-touch elite. He claims

:28:33.:28:38.

World War I was plainly a just war. In which the Germans' pitiless

:28:39.:28:45.

approach and expansionist war aims justified Britain's involvement.

:28:46.:28:51.

Enter Tristram Hunt and Labour's schools' spokesman, he claimed the

:28:52.:28:54.

Government is using what should be a moment for national reflection and

:28:55.:29:00.

respectful debate to rewrite the historical record and sow political

:29:01.:29:06.

division. History, Churchill is supposed to have said, is written by

:29:07.:29:10.

the victors, the outcome of the war may not be in doubt, but what it

:29:11.:29:18.

meant still is. With us now is Professor Richard Evans from

:29:19.:29:23.

Cambridge University, a man singled out by Michael Gove for particular

:29:24.:29:29.

reproach. And in Toronto TWEF Margaret Macmillan, author of The

:29:30.:29:35.

War That Ended Peace. Do you think that Michael Gove is right to say we

:29:36.:29:42.

see the war through a particular set of preconceptions, "loins led by

:29:43.:29:48.

donkeys" and the like? I don't, I think he has said this a lot and a

:29:49.:29:53.

lot of people have argued it. Quite frankly there are many ways of

:29:54.:29:56.

seeing the war. One of the things we should be doing a hundred years

:29:57.:30:00.

later is looking in the round, not arguing about one particular view of

:30:01.:30:05.

the war. It wasn't entirely a war led by donkeys, the generals were

:30:06.:30:10.

trying hard to deal with new technology and strong edge to

:30:11.:30:13.

defensive war. They learned as the war game on, but they debt -- war

:30:14.:30:18.

went on but didn't have the technology to make successful

:30:19.:30:24.

attacks. We need more nuance and we need 100 years later to talk without

:30:25.:30:35.

these polemics. Do you think the nuance and lack sophisticated

:30:36.:30:41.

arguments you are talking about has been lost? It has been lost, we have

:30:42.:30:45.

tended to argue about the First World War in a very nationalistic

:30:46.:30:49.

way. I think surely 100 years later we should be looking at something

:30:50.:30:54.

that was a catastrophe that hit the whole of Europe, hit the world as

:30:55.:31:00.

well and hit, you know, it wasn't just a European war. I speak as a

:31:01.:31:04.

Canadian. This is something that we feel quite strongly about. I do

:31:05.:31:08.

think it is a time to be able to pull back. Instead of arguing about

:31:09.:31:12.

which nation was right and which was wrong and who was responsible, I

:31:13.:31:15.

really would like to see more discussion of what that war meant.

:31:16.:31:19.

What did it mean for European society, how did it happen, why did

:31:20.:31:22.

Europe fight it in that particular way. It seems to me there are all

:31:23.:31:26.

sorts of interesting questions, and there is nothing wrong with debating

:31:27.:31:29.

interpretations. This is what we should be doing, but what I really

:31:30.:31:33.

don't like is the idea we should only be looking at the war in one

:31:34.:31:38.

way. That there is only one correct interpretation of the war. The

:31:39.:31:42.

Education Secretary singled you out by name as one of the perpetrators

:31:43.:31:50.

of the left-wing or orthodoxy about the war, how did you feel about

:31:51.:31:55.

that? It is always like to have enemies like Michael Gove because

:31:56.:31:57.

he's usually wrong about historical matters. The point I would like to

:31:58.:32:04.

make is there is nothing left-wing about saying lions led by donkeys,

:32:05.:32:09.

the phrase about the troops in the First World War, that phrase was

:32:10.:32:16.

created by Alan Clarke, a Tory MP, a maverick right-winger. You accept it

:32:17.:32:20.

is not the total picture No it is not. It is not even the total

:32:21.:32:25.

picture of military leadership? No it isn't. Margaret is right in

:32:26.:32:29.

saying they simply could not cope with the new technology. Barbedwire,

:32:30.:32:34.

and the machine gun, turned the tables on attack, which had been

:32:35.:32:38.

favoured in 19th century wars and put it all on the side of defence.

:32:39.:32:43.

It wasn't until the 1918 when the tank was developed that was reversed

:32:44.:32:48.

and the allied armies could advance. What about the point that Michael

:32:49.:32:54.

Gove makes that this was a "just war", that is the phrase he uses?

:32:55.:32:57.

You can't really say that until 1918. Britain's principal ally was

:32:58.:33:06.

Tsar of Russia, despotism that put Germany into the shade, it is not

:33:07.:33:10.

until Russia withdraws from the war and the Americans come in everything

:33:11.:33:13.

changes. It seems to me legitimate enough to argue that Britain and

:33:14.:33:18.

France were fighting for democracy and liberal values. What is your

:33:19.:33:23.

view about this idea of the "just war" Margaret Macmillan? Well,

:33:24.:33:26.

people always feel that what they are doing is just. But I'm rather

:33:27.:33:33.

reluctant to accept the view that the war was about promoting a

:33:34.:33:36.

liberal international order. Most people who fought on all sides felt

:33:37.:33:41.

they were fighting to defend their homelands, their families and

:33:42.:33:44.

friends. I'm not sure they were fighting for a great vision, that

:33:45.:33:47.

came later. The politicians provided the visions. But I do think we need

:33:48.:33:52.

to remember that people at the time felt they were fighting for

:33:53.:33:54.

something. We don't have to agree with them. But we're not also I

:33:55.:33:58.

think in the position of sitting there saying you are completely

:33:59.:34:01.

wrong. We are not marking their cards, are we. We shouldn't be

:34:02.:34:05.

saying you got it right, you got it wrong, at this stage we should be

:34:06.:34:09.

trying to understand how the war happened, and how this very

:34:10.:34:14.

prosperous continent created this awful mess. The intervention by the

:34:15.:34:20.

Education Secretary is of a piece with interventions by other

:34:21.:34:24.

politicians who looking to this complicated question which is

:34:25.:34:28.

precisely how do we commemorate this event? Is it helpful do you think to

:34:29.:34:32.

have politicians wading in like this? Well it is not always helpful,

:34:33.:34:38.

is it? I think the politicians will have very strong views of what they

:34:39.:34:41.

want to do. I think it is something that belongs to all of us. I think

:34:42.:34:44.

the politicians are entitled to their views, but I think we also, as

:34:45.:34:48.

the public, should have our views. I'm not saying historians are the

:34:49.:34:53.

only people who should describe the war either. It is something we

:34:54.:34:56.

should be all talking about. What is your feeling about these political

:34:57.:35:00.

interventions? I think they are unhelpful. We don't want politicians

:35:01.:35:04.

to tell us what we should be feeling about the war or how we should

:35:05.:35:07.

commemorate it. I actually think the Government has got it more or less

:35:08.:35:12.

right in giving the freedom, funding, to people locally, to

:35:13.:35:17.

institutions, to all kinds of groups to commemorate the war in the way

:35:18.:35:23.

they want to. If you look at the Welsh Government for example it is,

:35:24.:35:26.

it has plan to commemorate the war, it includes honouring not only the

:35:27.:35:30.

troops who fought so bravely but also the conscientious objectors. It

:35:31.:35:39.

has schools' visits to Germany, the royal Fusiliers museum is having a

:35:40.:35:42.

collaboration with German institutions to commemorate the

:35:43.:35:46.

Christmas truce. It should be an educational experience. We need to

:35:47.:35:49.

teach people about the reasons why war happens, to try to avoid it

:35:50.:35:53.

happening again. Thank you both very much indeed. Ever since that

:35:54.:35:58.

unfortunate Romanian young man took a new year flight from Transylvenia,

:35:59.:36:03.

only to be met on his arrival by, horror of horrors, Keith Vaz, there

:36:04.:36:07.

has been intense speculation about whether the prove sighed tsunami of

:36:08.:36:15.

benefit scroungers and migrants was a figment Nigel Farage's

:36:16.:36:23.

imagination. There are some people coming and tonight we meet some of

:36:24.:36:28.

them in their Transylvanian home town of Cluj Napoca. I want to go to

:36:29.:36:39.

the UK because I want to find a better job. The change in the

:36:40.:36:50.

regulations regarding work permits will make a fewing -- huge

:36:51.:36:57.

difference. It is easier to find a job than here. You can do just more

:36:58.:37:03.

than wait tables in a restaurant. You can finally do something related

:37:04.:37:08.

to your study, you can make a contribution to the English society.

:37:09.:37:15.

I'm working five years in hotel reception. I'm really pleased with

:37:16.:37:21.

my work, I like my work. I like to work with people every day. But I'm

:37:22.:37:28.

not so satisfied by the material part. I think that we are not

:37:29.:37:34.

appreciated financially as well as we should be. Over the next few

:37:35.:37:42.

weeks I plan to do a very thorough research to analyse the market, the

:37:43.:37:49.

job market in the UK and I will have a look at what's going on with

:37:50.:37:55.

journalism and communications and PR and I'm looking phwoar internships

:37:56.:38:01.

at various institutions and corporations. I will also be

:38:02.:38:07.

contacting people I know in the UK hoping to land a job. We're going to

:38:08.:38:17.

the employment agency. There we will find a big database about the jobs

:38:18.:38:26.

across Europe. I want to go to the UK because here in Romania

:38:27.:38:32.

everything goes on family relationships. The manager is the

:38:33.:38:38.

father the director is the son. If you don't have a kind of family like

:38:39.:38:52.

that you can't find a job. I have read a lot of articles recently in

:38:53.:38:58.

the English newspapers, in the tabloids especially about this fear

:38:59.:39:06.

in dealing with an exodus of Romanians. They are concerned about

:39:07.:39:11.

flooding the job market, and I think most of these facts are quite

:39:12.:39:17.

overblown. Me and my friends share a common view on what is happening

:39:18.:39:20.

with migration, we all think that most of the Romanians will come back

:39:21.:39:25.

and just go there to get some skills and then they are probably going to

:39:26.:39:31.

head back. I think there is no need to worry about that part of the

:39:32.:39:35.

population that will go there to exploit the welfare, because that's

:39:36.:39:40.

like 10% of the population, maybe even less than that. The other

:39:41.:39:48.

percentage is very well equipped and very well skilled. I'm certain some

:39:49.:39:56.

people will go, for benefits, because there are people who like to

:39:57.:40:00.

take advantage everywhere. But this is not what the main population who

:40:01.:40:04.

emigrate will go specifically for that. Some will, some will go to get

:40:05.:40:09.

a good job, to get their studies finished or advanced or they will

:40:10.:40:15.

return or find a job there. I have my own concerns about travelling to

:40:16.:40:20.

the UK, of course, I know jobs, especially the high end jobs are

:40:21.:40:25.

very competitive and there is also the bias that you have to take into

:40:26.:40:28.

account because you are going to be competing with you know people froms

:40:29.:40:36.

native population. You have to be perfect, you have to be outstanding.

:40:37.:40:50.

I never have been there. I don't know what I will find, but I hope

:40:51.:41:02.

that I will like it. And we will be returning to those Romanian job

:41:03.:41:06.

seekers to find out how they fare after they arrive in the UK in the

:41:07.:41:10.

weeks ahead. One of the most hot low-anticipated films of the last

:41:11.:41:14.

many months opens this week. Twelve Years A Slave is widely tipped for

:41:15.:41:18.

Oscar glory and has been called the finest film to have been made about

:41:19.:41:21.

slavery in the states. It is all the more powerful for being based on a

:41:22.:41:32.

true story. The director, skean Steve McQueen is an artist who has

:41:33.:41:40.

just won the Turner Prize. Steve McQueen is a film director whose

:41:41.:41:46.

tract record dictates he will never compromise his vision. His new

:41:47.:41:50.

movie, Twelve Years A Slave, is based very firmly on the true story

:41:51.:41:55.

of Solomon Northup, a free man, kidnapped and sold into slavery. It

:41:56.:41:59.

is a story of how he kept his humanity in the face of the most

:42:00.:42:04.

unspeakable relentless cruelty. I don't want to survive, I want to

:42:05.:42:12.

live. My wife is a historian and said why not look into firsthand

:42:13.:42:16.

accounts of slavery. We did, she found this book called Twelve Years

:42:17.:42:21.

A Slave. It was amazing, every single page was a revelation. I

:42:22.:42:26.

closed the book and I was very angry with myself. I was angry with myself

:42:27.:42:31.

because I thought how did I not know this book. I realised nobody I knew,

:42:32.:42:37.

knew the book, I knew I had to make it into a movie. I got this from

:42:38.:42:43.

mistress Shaw, she won't grant me no soap to clean with. I stink so much

:42:44.:42:51.

I make myself gag. The film was a fantastic combination of intense

:42:52.:42:55.

moments, there is intense cruelty but also intense beauty in it as

:42:56.:43:00.

well? When people for example say to me how can you shoot something so

:43:01.:43:04.

horrific but beautiful. Because that's life. If you go to Louisiana,

:43:05.:43:09.

it is one of the most beautiful places you have been so. Shaun was

:43:10.:43:19.

on camera and wanted a dark Len, I can't put my filter on to life, life

:43:20.:43:24.

is perverse. Under the circumstances he is a slave owner, you lucksate in

:43:25.:43:31.

his favour. I survive, I will not fall into despair. It was tragic,

:43:32.:43:36.

Chiwetel Ejiofor was the job, he had a stature and presence to him, there

:43:37.:43:41.

is a nobility, and humanity, which is most important, less nobility

:43:42.:43:47.

more humanity. Within the environment of a situation which was

:43:48.:43:52.

unhumane, he had to hold on to that. My back is thick with scars for

:43:53.:43:58.

protesting my freedom. I was reading one of the articles of black writers

:43:59.:44:01.

saying he's not going to watch this film because race films are made for

:44:02.:44:05.

liberal white film-goers because they will end up feeling guilty and

:44:06.:44:10.

that is the purpose of them? I don't make films for white people! I just

:44:11.:44:19.

don't! It is like saying you know I don't need anyone to verify my

:44:20.:44:24.

existence, I make films or I make art because I'm alive and I'm an

:44:25.:44:30.

artist and I want to make things, I'm an entertainer, absolutely no

:44:31.:44:34.

two ways about it, you can't escape that. My film is about us, rather

:44:35.:44:40.

than specific groups of people. You know it is just the American tale

:44:41.:44:44.

but it is a global tale absolutely. You are no better than prized

:44:45.:44:50.

livestock. Chiwetel Ejiofor has to do so much without words, playing

:44:51.:44:54.

that character, particularly when he has to whip Patsy, how do you

:44:55.:44:59.

separate the acting from the natural distress of doing something like

:45:00.:45:04.

that? You don't. You cannot. But that's part of actually getting to

:45:05.:45:08.

some kind of truth within filming. The fact that we shot it in one take

:45:09.:45:17.

shows the tension there, that is why you get that performance, you ramp

:45:18.:45:21.

it up and we have to do it now. You talk to the actor already previously

:45:22.:45:26.

and in rehearsals, it is like a 100m sprint, you train four years to run

:45:27.:45:31.

for ten seconds, that is what it is about. You have to do it now. Steve

:45:32.:45:37.

McQueen doesn't shy away from tough subjects, Hunger, his first feature

:45:38.:45:43.

dealt with Bobby Sands, the Provisional IRA prisoner who died on

:45:44.:45:48.

the 5th of May in 1991 after 66 days on hunger strike. For me what was

:45:49.:45:58.

important about the film it was something swept under the carpet. At

:45:59.:46:02.

that time and even now it is the most important political event to

:46:03.:46:05.

happen in Britain at that time for 27 years. Ten men died through

:46:06.:46:09.

starvation in British prison cells. When the film came out a dialogue a

:46:10.:46:13.

conversation occurred about the troubles. So the movie at that point

:46:14.:46:17.

for me wasn't important, what was important was the dialogue. Certain

:46:18.:46:20.

things were said, people admitted to certain things that were never

:46:21.:46:24.

admitted to. The British establishment admitted to atrocities

:46:25.:46:29.

that occurred in H-blocks, that was the first time that has before

:46:30.:46:32.

happened, a dialogue occurred. That is the power of art in a way that it

:46:33.:46:39.

can actually, the simple thing it can do is just talk about what is

:46:40.:46:43.

going on now, where we are at and hopefully where we can possibly go

:46:44.:46:47.

in the future. Steve McQueen is already being garlanded for Twelve

:46:48.:46:51.

Years A Slave, but if he wins the Oscar, he will be the first black

:46:52.:46:59.

director to take the statue. If you win the Oscar is the pressure on you

:47:00.:47:02.

to take the Hollywood money or do you want to maintain their

:47:03.:47:06.

independence? I'm not a Hollywood money, if I was interested in money,

:47:07.:47:09.

you know if I was interested in money I would be somewhere else I

:47:10.:47:13.

wouldn't be here. That doesn't interest me. All I wanted to do, I

:47:14.:47:16.

wanted two things out of my life as far as money was concerned, I wanted

:47:17.:47:19.

to have shelter and I wanted to be able to buy any book I wanted, that

:47:20.:47:29.

was t I have those, that's enough. There is very definitely a Team

:47:30.:47:34.

Queenzieburn, Michael Fassbender has starred in each of his three films,

:47:35.:47:39.

he works with the same director of photography Shaun Bobbit every time?

:47:40.:47:46.

It is my band, we come together and make an album. Michael is Jagger,

:47:47.:47:53.

Shaun is the drummer, and you know, Charley Watts! You're Keith

:47:54.:47:58.

Richards? I have to be. Everyone wants to be Keith, I'm sorry, I'm

:47:59.:48:04.

Keith, yeah. That's it for tonight. Just before we go, a couple of

:48:05.:48:08.

tomorrow morning's front pages at least. The Times has news that many

:48:09.:48:13.

Tories are very fed up with George Osborne over the ?12 billion planned

:48:14.:48:17.

in welfare cuts. And the Guardian has the same story on its front

:48:18.:48:22.

page, the outrage of people being allies of Iain Duncan Smith, it also

:48:23.:48:28.

has a picture of Simon Hoggart, the parliamentary sketch writer whose

:48:29.:48:31.

death was announced today. Much more tomorrow, until then, good night.

:48:32.:48:36.

Are threats of new cuts just electioneering? Plus, the latest on the situation in Fallujah, 12 Years a Slave director Steve McQueen, a look at Romanian immigrants and do we have a left-wing view of the First World War? Analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.