03/02/2014 Newsnight


03/02/2014

Analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, including the former UKIP spokesman who led a kidnap gang in Pakistan, education reform, and Hillsbororough.


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The UK Independence Party pride themselves on being unlike other

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politicians, here is one thing that is certainly different about them.

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Until December, this man spoke for UKIP on the Commonwealth. When the

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gates open, now the benefit migrants start coming. We don't know the

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number. Four million Romanian gypsies alone. Tonight we reveal he

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was the ringleader of a kidnap gang in Pakistan. Your starter for ten,

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Michael Gove, plans more changes for schools, true or false. True. And

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this... I feel like you're spiting me. You think I took it job to spite

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you. I don't think there is any doubt or argument that he was, and

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how terrible that verb is in the past now, the greatest character

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actor of our time. Richard Curtis and Will Self on Hoffman and Heroin.

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He's been one of the poster boys for the United Kingdom Independence

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Party, his name is Mujeed Bhutto, usually described as UKIP

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Commonwealth Spokesman. Tonight Newsnight can disclose that Mr

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Bhutto was the leader of a notorious kidnapping gang in Karachi. In 2004

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he threatened to behead the son of a wealthy Pakistani businessman. He

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fled to England and was arrested in leads. -- Leeds when the ransom

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money was found under his bed. In the past two years he has campaigned

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for UKIP and making the most of television appearances. UKIP say

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today he has left the party and may join the Conservatives.

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In the media he's been very much the young Asian face of UKIP. Mujeed

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Bhutto was a party member for more than two years. Shown here on a

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Sunday morning debate show. What are you worried about, as UKIP's

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Commonwealth spokesman? It is mass immigration, in the last few years

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3. 7 million people have come in. How many have gone? We don't know

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because Government is not keeping up the numbers, they don't know who is

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coming in and going out. This Pakistani national has a remarkable

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past. Newsnight has found out that Mujeed Bhutto came to this country

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in 2004, not to work or visit relatives but to collect a bag full

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of cash from this car park in central Manchester. It is a story of

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blackmail, imprisonment and death threats. It starts thousands of

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miles away in Pakistan. In a wealthy neighbourhood of Karachi a gang of

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armed men stopped the Carreiraying the son of a well known businessman.

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He was bundled away at gun point and held in a house in the city for two

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months. Five days after the kidnapping Mujeed Bhutto flew to

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England. He negotiated a ransom to be dropped off at the Arndale Centre

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in Manchester. There was threats vive lens and torture, he claimed to

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be the boss of the man. At one point saying he would have the victim's

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head cut off and sent back to his father. There were two things, the

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city of Manchester being involved in this, 5,000 miles away from

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Pakistan. It is a lot of work for someone to come down to Manchester

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and then arang for the ransom to be paid here and all that. The other

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important thing, or interesting thing was that everybody connected

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with the gang, everybody, this was a fairly big gang, apparently, seems

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to have been found out and apprehended and punished, which

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regrettably does not always happen. The ?56,000 ransom was found hidden

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underneath Bhutto's bed in a house in Leeds where he was staying at the

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time. He later admitted conspiracy to blackmail and given a seven-year

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sentence to be served in a British jail. The judge at Manchester Crown

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Court said he should be deported to Pakistan, but he claimed political

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asylum so that never happened. Just a few months after he was released

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it appears Mujeed Bhutto joined the Conservative Party, a few years

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later he defected to UKIP. Since 2011 he has hosted conferences and

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last autumn organised a trip for Nigel Farage to two mosques in Leeds

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and Bradford. Over the past year he has been on and off the airwave,

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arguing strongly against unrestricted immigration. Mujeed

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Bhutto is the Commonwealth spokesman for the party and he's here. What

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are you saying to a Muslim in a mosque about UKIP? We are giving our

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message and about what people have their reservations about the party

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about racism and other things. Thank you for joining us Mujeed Bhutto?

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Thank you, this is a multiculturalism gone too far, and

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we are not in Afghanistan, we are in Britain.

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I'm a British Muslim, the thing is... Is Britain full? We are full,

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other over capacity, over the limited now. Then over Christmas his

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Facebook and Twitter pages vanished, he suddenly disappeared from UKIP's

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list of spokes people in Yorkshire. He now claims he rejoined the

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Conservative Party last week. This is not of course the first time

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questions have been raised about UKIP members, whether it is Godfrey

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Bloom or David Sylvester, blaming floods on gay marriage. If you don't

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have any discipline as a political party, and you don't have tight

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screening of candidate, you are perpetually going to be in trouble,

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and without party discipline a revolt against the mainstream

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parties will be doomed to fail before it has even got going.

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Despite that guilty plea, Mujeed Bhutto now claims he was the victim

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of a political rivalry, as his father was well connected in

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Pakistan. The rest of the gang were caught in Karachi and given the

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death penalty, he said he had to take a jail sentence here to avoid

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that possibility. He claims his case has now been thrown out by the

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Supreme Court in Pakistan. But the agency which handles kidnapping case

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there is has told Newsnight he's still a wanted man. My As of last

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month Mr Bhutto may no longer be an active member of UKIP. However this

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is the strongest example yet that Nigel Farage may have some way to go

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in his desire to clean up and professionalise the party.

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We asked UKIP whether they would come on to news night to talk about

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their erstwhile spokesman, they told us:

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The Education Secretary, Michael Gove, has been accused of many

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things, but reticence or modesty isn't one of them. He has more plans

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for reforming schooling than the European Union has directives. Today

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he started off by thanking schools for coping with the demands he has

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made of them, but he couldn't stop himself making more demands. His

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ambition, he said, was to create an environment in which you can't tell

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whether a school is in the private or state sector. Back in the 1990s

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our Secretary of State for Education was part of a "top club". Mime'

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Michael Gove. Then, as today, he knew how important extracurricular

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activities could be, helping, as he would put, to "build character" and

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"instill grit". His main hobbies are real ale and real grit. Back then he

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was good at politics? Jimmy Carter. A gift, his critics say never left

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him. They point to his dismissal, announced this weekend, of the

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Ofsted head, Sally Morgan, as the case in point. I'm really worried

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what we are seeing is a politicisation of such an important

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body such as Ofsted really when it has so much to do on school

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standards, school improvement, on collaboration, what we are seeing is

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a the Secretary of State playing politics with this really important

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post. What do you say to that Michael? False. How much is it about

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politicisingation of the -- politicisation of the role, as

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claimed by the Liberal Democrats and Labour, and how much is it as part

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of a wider vision. Man who has such a clear idea of what he is

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determined education should be about, that doesn't want anyone,

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least of all anyone at Ofsted, to get in his way. Holland Park school,

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name checked by Michael Gove in his speech this morning, as a vision of

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ethos and excellence he wants to see everywhere. It is a state school

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that has changed dramatically in the last ten years, from the state it

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found itself by Ofsted to the outstanding rating in 2011. I asked

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the head if he worries about politicisation of Ofsted? Inevitably

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one worries about that, it would be regrettable if the political

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landscape and the educational landscape were so fused that they

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had become inacceptable. It has not been my experience in any Ofsted

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inspection that I felt any degree at all of politicisation. I think

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certainly in 2011 one felt a particular brand that one hadn't

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felt in previous inspections. Michael Gove is ambitious, he

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believes the success story of places like Holland Park can be repeated

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throughout the state sector. And today sounded the death knell on

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that well worn phrase of the Blair administration, "the bog standard

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school". Fact show beyond a reasonable doubt that English

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education is starting to show a sustained and significant

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improvement. The Government vision isn't just sweetness and light,

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today's speech also told teachers to punish where they see fit. He even

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told them how to do T Schools can insist on a detention, lunch break,

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afterschool or weekends, they do not need, as they used to under Labour,

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to give parents notice. They ask students to do extra work or repeat

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unsatisfactory work, to write lines or an extra essay. Mr Government has

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seen himself as locked in a struggle with this little fella, the blob,

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the slime of quangos and those against change. If the Secretary of

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State has a strong feeling of passion about the direction Ofsted

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should be going in, shouldn't he be allowed to exercise that?

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Secretaries of state should have autonomy and power, what we are

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facing at the moment is a situation where everyone is saying Sally

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Morgan is doing a good job, and we are seeing Ofsted inspecting in a

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new and creative manner in certain circumstances, she is working well

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with Michael Wilshaw, and yet the Secretary of State is getting rid of

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her for essentially party political purposes. I understand a lot of this

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hinges on the relationship between the Chief Inspector of Schools and

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Michael Gove himself. Sir Michael was brought in as a man who shared

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Mr Government's passions and understanding of the need for a

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formal Ofsted, and yet, some way, he struggled to bring the institution

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with him. Two weeks ago Michael Wilshaw say red, angered that plans

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were being drawn up to reform and replace Ofsted. And last week David

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Cameron appointed to the office a campaigns officer, a move Labour

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fears will fill the jobs with more top Tories. Michael Gove insists

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this isn't part of a Number Ten plan and the Morgan move was all his own

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work. The Education Secretary is man known for his zeal and a sense of

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doing things his way, as the "top club" might have once sung.

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# It's got to be... # Perfect! We asked Michael Gove and

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any of his backing group of education ministers to come on and

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discuss his speech, they said no-one was available. I'm joined by the

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headmaster or headteacher of the London Academy of excellence, are

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you headmaster or headteacher? I call myself headmaster. The free

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school where Michael Gove made his speech. Fiona Miller who chairs the

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Local Schools Network, which campaigns to promote local state

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schools, and David Green who runs the Civitas think-tank. He as right

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isn't he in a way in saying that the "bog standard" school is leaving

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England? I think so, personally I think that the creation of numerous

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academies and a fairly large number of free schools has made a big

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difference. It depends on whether you think competition drives up

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standards or whether you think it doesn't. Personally I think it does.

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The great problem we have had in the last 30 years that we have had 25 or

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30% of pupils usually from disadvantaged backgrounds going to

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schools where they have just not achieved their potential, hah that

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couldn't be solved under state system with local authorities in the

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driving seat, if not directly controlling schools in the way they

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used to. His introduction of free schools and academies has

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transformed the situation. To that extent it is a reasonable inference.

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What do you make of the fact that he seemed to take the independent

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sector as the benchmark, the desirable benchmark? He always does,

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that I thought his speech today was a little bonkers, if you don't mind

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me saying so. To talk about state schools introducing lines, bringing

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in common entrance tests. There is no reason why they couldn't if they

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wanted to? Why would they want to? He talked about a lot of things that

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states schools are already doing as if they weren't. That is par for the

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course, he likes to set up the straw men, the trendy progressive state

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schools not doing rigour, not doing Duke of Edinburghs and debating, all

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these things are going on in state schools and parents know that well.

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It is a false dichotomy, he talks about state and independent schools,

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rather than good schools and not issed God schools, it is up to good

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schools to help make the not so good will, it is about sharing with

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schools what is not fully imbedded. That is happening in London and what

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London Challenge achieved, that is why London schools are a lot more

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successful. Because they have had more money? And focus and attention.

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Did you think the speech was bonkers? As I said afterwards, it

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was my school it was given at, I said a good lesson, some things we

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heard before some we hadn't and lots to think about. Some aspects, having

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come from the independent sector, the school I used to work did one of

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the most sensible things they did is get rid of the common entrance.

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There used to be a test at 14 that got away with, it all turned into a

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complete shambles. I seem to recall that he was actually rather in

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favour of getting rid of it? I can't remember, it was Ed Balls who got

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rid of it. The thing about Michael Gove the language he uses is

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detatched from what goes on in real schools, he's alienating a lot of

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heads and teachers who are working very hard to do all the things you

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are talking about, by demonising them, presenting them as this

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mythical blob that doesn't exist, apart from in the minds of the

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Telegraph leaders. What about some of these other pro-Mosal --

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proposals that there be lines given and other forms of punishment in

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schools? The way to look at it is like this, the big structural

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changes have happened, now there is free schools and academies, and the

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next stage is to go on to, which is partly what you were saying Robert,

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is what makes for a good school. What should schools be doing. What

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he is saying is there's been this problem of discipline in recent

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years, and he's saying let me make it clear that there is more you can.

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Do I didn't think it was in the least bit bonkers, and he was saying

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that, for example, he will know perfectly well if you look at the

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international study, it tries to work out what makes the difference

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between an independently managed school and why they do better in the

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state schools. And one of the things is they put in more time. So he's

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saying let me make it clear you can put in more time. Let's talk to

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Fiona's point that he refers to, the "blob", explain what that is? I

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don't know. It is a creation of Michael Gove and the Telegraph. Does

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anyone know what it means? It is way of referring to the inertia in a

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system. For the last 0 -- 30-odd years there is focus on what is

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called progressive, child-led, child-focussed education, and it has

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dragged down standards. Do you think Fiona is part of the blob? Yes, she

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is. I'm a journalist, and there is a lot of blobby journalists. You are a

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chairman of governors and active in local schools network. Anyone who

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criticised child-centered he education is making a big mistake,

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it should be child-sendered. It is child-led or teacher-led. That was

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false dichotomy. One of the things we have encountered is Ofsted

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inspectors going around, giving a school "outstanding" for

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achievement, and good for teaching quality, because they were too

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diadactic. We are talking about the way Michael Gove deals with people

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who work in the frontline. It is not a separate issues. That is what the

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blob is, it is because the inspectors are endorsing doctrines

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that do not work for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. There are

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teachers and head teachers, these are the people that run our schools

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make them work well. We want to encourage them to do better if they

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are not doing well enough, and celebrate the ones doing well. The

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way Michael Gove deals with it is to demonise everybody in the state

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system and saying everyone in the private system is doing brilliantly.

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We need to switch the rhetoric and focus on support and collaboration.

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Do you feel part of the blob? No I don't. You know what the blob is

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don't you? It is some construct put together by the media isn't it

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really. I mean in the same way. You don't recognise that there is an

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orthodoxy in academic circles about what teaching ought to be, what the

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style ought to be, what its methodology ought to be? I don't

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think that is true, that might have been true ten years, but not now.

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Just talking about Ofsted, only last week Michael Wilshaw published an

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open letter to the inspectorate saying stop saying the lessons was

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bad because there was too much teacher talk. He needed to do that

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because it was a problem. The point being is the Chief Inspector is

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saying the most important thing about a lesson, which seems fairly

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obvious is whether the children learn something or not or make

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progress. And the method, sometimes that will be through teacher talk

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and sometimes through impact learning and sometimes through group

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work and sometimes through some other method, what matters at the

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end of the lesson is do the children walk out knowing more than when they

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went into the room. Part of the madness of Michael Gove is he talks

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the language of autonomy and being free, but then does nothing but tell

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people how to do their job, disMRNing children and how to teach.

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You think there is no problem? Yes, of course, many schools do need to

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get better, I fully accept that. As our elected representative, isn't it

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his job to try to make things better? I'm making the thing that he

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says he wants to give power to heads and teachers to decide how to run

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their schools, let's let them do it, they don't need to be lectured by

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him about how to instill discipline in their pupils or how exactly to

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teach a lesson. If he wants autonomy let's talk about that. David's point

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is crucially. You will be backed centrally. He want to control it

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centrally. He's making it clear that from Whitehall they will back the

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teachers who use these methods. What are we trying do? Some of the things

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talked about today in the speech sounds like education hasn't

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developed a new purpose apart from preparing people to work in clerical

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jobs that no longer exist. The best schools now are teaching, as well as

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knowledge, the skills of creativity, of independent thinking. Piajet says

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people are intelligent are those who know what to do when they don't know

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what to do. That is what schools should be doing, that is what Dilnot

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Williams and others are talking about all the time. We come back to

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conversations about methods of teaching rather than the purpose of

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teaching. Those are discredited doctrine, Piajet is discredited. I

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think this is going off topic here. It has become a by-word for cover-up

:21:29.:21:35.

and injustice, survivors of the Hillsborough disaster has told

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Newsnight they were intimidated and threatened by police sent to take

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their statements. Seven months ago the Illsley independent panel

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reported that accounts from Yorkshire Police, the local force,

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had been changed, apparently to shift the blamen to the fans. For

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the first time a number of fan who is survived the disaster have come

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forward to tell us how West Midlands Police took their statements. Peter

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Marshall, who was at Hillsborough in 1989 has been investigating. S.

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Peter Marshall, who was at Hillsborough in 1989 has been

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investigating. If you were there you know. If you were on the terrace

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inside, 3,000 were backed behind the goal, you thanked mercy you

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survived. 96 didn't. But for untold numbers, escaping the crush was only

:22:25.:22:32.

the start of decades of trauma. I wasn't the same person, the top had

:22:33.:22:35.

come off for me, I couldn't keep it all within any more. I just didn't

:22:36.:22:45.

want to carry on. Some feel their trauma was made far worse by the

:22:46.:22:49.

attitude of the officers whose job it was to mount an Independent

:22:50.:22:55.

investigation into what went wrong at Hillsborough. Survivors will tell

:22:56.:22:59.

you certain of these officers from the West Midlands force seemed to

:23:00.:23:02.

regard them not so much as vulnerable but invaluable witnesses

:23:03.:23:08.

more as though they were the accused. He told me he was going to

:23:09.:23:12.

put together a case to charge me with wasting police time. I'm a

:23:13.:23:17.

19-year-old boy, three weeks out of Hillsborough, traumatised, and he's

:23:18.:23:21.

threatening me that he will put together a case for wasting police

:23:22.:23:25.

time, because he didn't like my evidence. Nick, a 19-year-old

:23:26.:23:31.

Sheffield student at the time was an Ipswich fan, a neutral, excited to

:23:32.:23:36.

be going to a cup semifinal with friends from Liverpool. But as soon

:23:37.:23:39.

as he arrived outside the ground he saw the chaos. It was a very

:23:40.:23:45.

dangerous crush outside the stadium, which developed, there were very few

:23:46.:23:48.

place around, no directions, no filtering, no barriers, nothing at

:23:49.:23:55.

all. Nick and over 1,000 others went into the ground when police ordered

:23:56.:24:00.

the opening of an exit gate. Within seconds they were in a lethal crush

:24:01.:24:07.

on the terrace. John was just 17. The sound that still resonates with

:24:08.:24:12.

me to this day is the sound of a crash barrier just snapping. And

:24:13.:24:19.

everyone seemed just to topple in a domino effect. I went down under and

:24:20.:24:26.

through the crowd. I think I passed out underneath and within the crowd,

:24:27.:24:37.

I came to near the front left of the pen, and came to amongst people that

:24:38.:24:52.

I now know were dead or were dying. As luck was within a matter of

:24:53.:24:57.

metres to gate that led on to the pitch. There was a policeman on the

:24:58.:25:04.

gate, the cries are suitable cries. People are dying, the guy turns his

:25:05.:25:11.

back on us, he turned his back on us and ignores us. He didn't comprehend

:25:12.:25:16.

what was going on in front of his eyes. He could not have understood

:25:17.:25:21.

it. I remember standing next to a guy with dark greasey hair from the

:25:22.:25:26.

sweat, we were totally pushed against each other in such a way

:25:27.:25:32.

that it is impossible to describe. It was just me and him fighting for

:25:33.:25:38.

our lives. And I don't know if he was one of the 96, I don't know if

:25:39.:25:42.

he got out. But I know that I had to stand on him to get out. John helped

:25:43.:25:49.

carry the dead and dying and then collapsed. In the following weeks he

:25:50.:25:54.

and Nick and others were asked to make statements to the West Midlands

:25:55.:25:58.

Police who had been called in to investigate. The questions weren't

:25:59.:26:04.

what they had expected. The questions were along the line of how

:26:05.:26:08.

can you give evidence against the policemen, how can you make

:26:09.:26:11.

statements like that. Who are you to try to stitch us up and all this

:26:12.:26:16.

nonsense. He then turned quite aggressive and started to question

:26:17.:26:23.

me, was I a left-wing agitator, was I a student agitator or a member of

:26:24.:26:28.

the Socialist Workers' Party. It was observed the day before I had been

:26:29.:26:35.

wearing a "free man Dell had a" T-shirt, that made me a left-wing

:26:36.:26:43.

agitator. What did you say to it? I laughed initially. It was just are

:26:44.:26:48.

you serious, I'm just a fan of the game of football. John, the

:26:49.:26:52.

schoolboy, says two officers came to his house and sent his parents away,

:26:53.:26:55.

supposedly to spare their feelings. He told them everything, including

:26:56.:26:59.

his plan to join the police. He says they dismissed his account as

:27:00.:27:04.

unimportant. They had heard it all before. I hadn't told them anything

:27:05.:27:08.

they didn't already know, and although I had been talking I didn't

:27:09.:27:23.

know what he had written. N. They They stood around me and I wanted to

:27:24.:27:28.

read it because I wasn't happy so I stood up. They stood around me, that

:27:29.:27:34.

was oppressive behaviour, they were physically intimidating, two grown

:27:35.:27:37.

men, detectives, in my house, I felt I had no power to tell them what to

:27:38.:27:43.

do. You were a child? Yeah. They simply told me to sign it. They said

:27:44.:27:49.

you don't need to read it, I have written what you have told me, all

:27:50.:27:55.

you need to do is sign this now. So what happened? I signed it. You

:27:56.:28:00.

didn't read it? No, they wouldn't let me. Nick says to him the police

:28:01.:28:06.

became increasingly hostile? He then turned on me as to whether I was a

:28:07.:28:10.

criminal with a grudge against the police. He told me he was going to

:28:11.:28:14.

check my criminal record, he just you know just said I wasn't there, I

:28:15.:28:17.

couldn't have been there. Couldn't have been at the game? I said you

:28:18.:28:21.

have my match ticket, what more do you need me to prove I was there. He

:28:22.:28:26.

said well you could have found that. What's particularly troubling is

:28:27.:28:31.

that these stories of survivors feeling intimidated and abused are

:28:32.:28:36.

not uncommon. Many now see a thread stretching from the south Yorkshire

:28:37.:28:41.

force, who bungled the organisation at Hillsborough, to the West

:28:42.:28:45.

Midlands Police, now teamed to have failed in their investigation. As

:28:46.:28:53.

the main author of the Hillsborough Panel Report, and after 25 years

:28:54.:28:57.

researching the disaster, this professor believes survivors, like

:28:58.:29:00.

the bereaved, weren't interviewed, they were interrogated. There was a

:29:01.:29:05.

mind set amongst the police investigators, and that mind set

:29:06.:29:14.

hinged on crowd-related violence hooliganism, for want of a better

:29:15.:29:21.

phrase, drunkenness, late arrival and ticketlessness. That was the

:29:22.:29:24.

mind set. What I think is so significant about this is that if

:29:25.:29:31.

you put that alongside knowledge that the police statements were

:29:32.:29:34.

being reviewed and altered, it brings into question the entire

:29:35.:29:39.

evidential base upon which the inquiries and investigations were

:29:40.:29:45.

conducted. He says the way statements were taken only added to

:29:46.:29:49.

the unresolved trauma. John was both typical and unique. He joined the

:29:50.:29:55.

police, the Met's murder squad, but was haunted by what he called

:29:56.:29:59.

survivor guilt. 15 years on he tried to kill himself. The sound of the

:30:00.:30:08.

barrier, the screams, still the feel of that guy's hair in my face, still

:30:09.:30:15.

feel it, I feel it now, I feel it today. I didn't want it any more. I

:30:16.:30:20.

didn't think I at the served to still -- deserved to still be on.

:30:21.:30:25.

What did you do? Tried to drive a car into a tree. John resigned from

:30:26.:30:35.

the police and has now rebuilt his lifeuilt his life. At the Warrington

:30:36.:30:40.

Police Complaints Authority they are rebuilding the inquiry. All the

:30:41.:30:44.

original statements were handed to the original Hillsborough panel and

:30:45.:30:48.

stored here. Nick sees his and says it doesn't reflect the truth. He has

:30:49.:30:53.

also seen internal West Midlands Police memos and notes. And there,

:30:54.:30:58.

hand-written are the lines referring to him, "came across as totally

:30:59.:31:03.

antipolice, at first doubted he had been at the match, then there is the

:31:04.:31:07.

Nelson Mandela T-shirt, left-wing type, actual motif not known". What

:31:08.:31:13.

do you think of what they have written down? It is nonsense, it is

:31:14.:31:17.

a cover up of a cover up, if you like. John's finally got to see the

:31:18.:31:24.

statement he was refused sight of 25 years ago. He says it even places

:31:25.:31:29.

him in the wrong part of the ground. The way they dealt with me on that

:31:30.:31:34.

day, I felt dirty when they walked out the door. I felt they didn't

:31:35.:31:37.

want to listen to me and they had come with an agenda. It totally

:31:38.:31:45.

vindicates my thoughts then. West Midlands Police aren't commenting on

:31:46.:31:49.

any of this, they say they are awaiting the explanation of

:31:50.:31:51.

continuing investigations and the fresh Hillsborough inquest.

:31:52.:32:04.

The shock of the news that the actor Philip Seymour Hoffman had been

:32:05.:32:07.

found dead with a needle in his harm as hardly abated. There is universal

:32:08.:32:10.

agreement he was an outstanding performer, and some great surprise

:32:11.:32:15.

at the circumstances of his death. I'm going to talk about drugs and

:32:16.:32:19.

addiction and creativity shortly with Will Self. First though Richard

:32:20.:32:26.

Curtis, who worked with Hoffman on his film The Boat That Rocked

:32:27.:32:31.

remembers the factor's -- actor's work. Philip Seymour Hoffman was a

:32:32.:32:35.

wonderful, mysterious and complex man, who gave an astonishing range

:32:36.:32:40.

of performances in his 60 or so films. He had that talent that the

:32:41.:32:44.

great actors do of extending your understanding and sympathy for human

:32:45.:32:49.

beings. So it is no coincidence that one of his great stage performances

:32:50.:32:54.

was in Death of a Salesman, the key line of which is "attention must be

:32:55.:33:00.

paid". Philip's performances made us pay attention to strange or lonely,

:33:01.:33:08.

uncool, unusual men. There's a very telling and strangely apt line in

:33:09.:33:16.

his wonderful performance in Almost Famous. I'm glad you are home? I'm

:33:17.:33:23.

always home, I'm uncool. Me too? You are doing great, the only true

:33:24.:33:27.

currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone when you

:33:28.:33:36.

are uncool. He made no mistakes in his extraordinary career. I remember

:33:37.:33:42.

him sitting around with people on The Boat That Rocked. I asked him

:33:43.:33:46.

was there any film he was unsure of, and he said Twister, and the howl

:33:47.:33:51.

went up and said you were fantastic, it is a fantastic film. Even in that

:33:52.:33:56.

effects-driven Hollywood commercial firm there was something

:33:57.:33:59.

extraordinary about what Phil did. He was good at everything. He was

:34:00.:34:04.

very good at being bad, he was a great stage Iago, and this is a

:34:05.:34:10.

glimpse of him as someone who wants to kill Tom Cruise which is bad, I

:34:11.:34:15.

suppose. What are you saying, that wasn't it? What I gave yo I'm going

:34:16.:34:22.

to count to ten, you will tell me where the rabbit's foot is or she

:34:23.:34:29.

dies. He was exceptional at portraying goodness or sweetness.

:34:30.:34:35.

Like he did in the film, beautiful film Jack Goes Boating, that he

:34:36.:34:39.

himself directed. Maybe a little good night kis Maybe. Nothing

:34:40.:34:52.

overwhelming? OK. I don't think there is any doubt or argument that

:34:53.:34:57.

he was, and how terrible that verb is in the past now, the greatest

:34:58.:35:04.

character actor of our time. I remember the first part I ever fell

:35:05.:35:10.

in love with him in was The Talented Mr Ripley. Extraordinary rhythms

:35:11.:35:15.

like you had never seen someone do before. Are you living here? No, no,

:35:16.:35:29.

I'm staying here for a few day It is a new piano, you probably shouldn't.

:35:30.:35:40.

(hits piano keys) His explosive performance in Charley Wilson's War,

:35:41.:35:43.

almost unrecoginsable from any other film you have seen him in. I have

:35:44.:35:47.

neutralised champions of communism, I have spent the past three years

:35:48.:35:53.

learning finish, which will come in handy in Virginia, and I'm never

:35:54.:35:56.

sick at sea, I want to know why I'm not going to be the Helsinki chief.

:35:57.:36:02.

You are coarse? Excuse me. He was a proper leading man, as seen in his

:36:03.:36:09.

amazing performance as Trueman Capote, for which he won an Oscar,

:36:10.:36:14.

he should have won ten. I had lunch with Jimmy Barredman the other day.

:36:15.:36:20.

How is he? He's a lovely man, he told me the plot of his new book, he

:36:21.:36:24.

said to me I just want to make sure it is not one of those problem

:36:25.:36:28.

novels, I said, Jimmy your novel is about a negro homosexual who is in

:36:29.:36:34.

love with a Jew, wouldn't you call that a problem?! All I can say is

:36:35.:36:40.

perhaps you seek out one or even five of his extraordinary films from

:36:41.:36:48.

Magnolia to The Mast e from Punchdrunk Love to The Savages, I'm

:36:49.:36:54.

sure you will marvel at it, and enjoy it and know a little bit more

:36:55.:36:58.

about what it means to be human. That is what great actors do. And

:36:59.:37:02.

Philip Seymour Hoffman was such an actor. Richard Curtis on Philip

:37:03.:37:08.

Seymour Hoffman. Joining us now is the writer Will Self. I would like

:37:09.:37:13.

to talk about the drugs aspect of this. Were you surprised? I knew

:37:14.:37:17.

nothing about Philip Seymour Hoffman's involvement with drugs at

:37:18.:37:21.

all. Surely one of the reasons why we have all cleaved to him so

:37:22.:37:24.

strongly is he was somebody who managed to keep his private life

:37:25.:37:29.

largely out of the public eye, which is an achievement in this day and

:37:30.:37:35.

age. Do you understand the involvement with drugs? Addiction is

:37:36.:37:41.

no respecter of persons. There is hardly anywhere you can point a

:37:42.:37:45.

finger high or low in society and not hit somebody who has addiction

:37:46.:37:52.

issues. Heroin is a drug we associate most strongly with

:37:53.:37:55.

addiction, but people can be addicted to all sorts of things. I

:37:56.:37:58.

think the fact that heroin was involved in his death is what people

:37:59.:38:02.

find very shocking. Largely because of the image that heroin has in our

:38:03.:38:09.

culture. I think that is shocking. The old saw-horse of whether he was

:38:10.:38:15.

such an amazing actor in some way was connected, his creativity was

:38:16.:38:20.

connected with the drug use, or the pressures of his life led to the

:38:21.:38:24.

drug use. I dare say that's in the mix, you can go to any kind of poor

:38:25.:38:32.

or deprived part of our country and shake a stick, throw a stick and you

:38:33.:38:38.

will hit somebody who probably has a heroin habit. We have the highest

:38:39.:38:43.

per capita registered heroin addicts in Europe. It is often represented

:38:44.:38:48.

as a loser's drug, which is the environment you are talking about

:38:49.:38:51.

there, by no stretch of the imagination was this man a loser?

:38:52.:38:56.

No, and you will find heroin addicts in every walk of life. I think in

:38:57.:39:01.

America, in particular, there is a very strange culture, there is a

:39:02.:39:04.

strange one here as well. But a strange culture surrounding opiate

:39:05.:39:12.

drugs, and the broader family of drugs which heroin is one. What is

:39:13.:39:18.

heroin like? You are asking me personally. I think for people that

:39:19.:39:22.

don't have, you know, who don't have a reason to be anaesthetised, it

:39:23.:39:30.

probably is experienced as, yes euphoric, as yes a kind of drug that

:39:31.:39:34.

they wouldn't mind taking, but they wouldn't necessarily feel a pull

:39:35.:39:38.

towards taking it again. It is one of the paradoxes. One of the strange

:39:39.:39:42.

things is most of the people watching us now at some time or

:39:43.:39:46.

another will take medical diamorphine, which is heroin. If

:39:47.:39:50.

they are in pain they will experience simply the removal of the

:39:51.:39:54.

pain. It is not instantly addictive then? No, it takes a fairly

:39:55.:40:00.

concerted effort to get addicted to opiate drugs, so you can say that

:40:01.:40:05.

people who do become addicted, maybe they have a predisposition to it.

:40:06.:40:08.

But they have to make some decisions and decide to take it. But I think

:40:09.:40:13.

at some point, and presumably this had happened to Hoffman and from the

:40:14.:40:18.

bare bones account we have of his history of drug use, it probably

:40:19.:40:22.

happened to him shortly after he left acting school. Because he went

:40:23.:40:25.

to rehab after that. You don't really go to drug rehab without a

:40:26.:40:30.

drug problem. The points get switched, you have made so many

:40:31.:40:33.

decisions to take the drug that the taking of it becomes compulsive at

:40:34.:40:39.

some level. Apparently he spent 20 years clean? Yes, that may well be

:40:40.:40:42.

true. Of course we don't know whether he had other addictive

:40:43.:40:47.

behaviours so to speak, and kept the addiction dormant. I think the way

:40:48.:40:50.

the story is being reported suggests this idea that addiction is like a

:40:51.:40:55.

kind of ugly spirit that was could youed -- cowed and pushed into the

:40:56.:40:59.

background and reared up in that way. I'm not sure that is useful. It

:41:00.:41:03.

seems a rather medieval perception of it, we don't know is the truth of

:41:04.:41:07.

the matter, what led to him being in that situation, again very sadly,

:41:08.:41:12.

but this is only supposition, often people who returned to using heroin

:41:13.:41:15.

after a long period of be a Nantes, they can't judge the dose. You know,

:41:16.:41:25.

this is happening quite freakily. -- frequently. There is something about

:41:26.:41:30.

injecting isn't there? It is the combination of his brilliance as an

:41:31.:41:35.

actor and the very, very, and it is pushed as a gory detail, it is a

:41:36.:41:41.

lurid detail, it is a bit of sensationalism that injecting is

:41:42.:41:45.

involved is very shocking. I think that is because, again, most of us

:41:46.:41:48.

will be injected with heroin at some point in our lives. Usually just

:41:49.:41:53.

before we die. You know anybody who has been in hospital and had pain

:41:54.:41:59.

relief has been injected with heroin often, or morphine. Do you think

:42:00.:42:03.

doing it yourself is different? That is the point, going right back to

:42:04.:42:10.

the, heroin was originally synthesised in St Mary's Hospital in

:42:11.:42:13.

Paddington, near to where we are now. It was a medical THIVENLTH

:42:14.:42:18.

opiate addiction has always been appropriating what should be

:42:19.:42:24.

rightfully a medical role. I don't mean to be trite about this, it is

:42:25.:42:29.

quite serious, addiction comes about at the same time as the full

:42:30.:42:31.

professionalise of medicine and the elevation of medicine to our modern

:42:32.:42:36.

priesthood, our kind of spiritual priesthood, the idea that somebody

:42:37.:42:40.

should appropriate th thing that only doctors are meant to do and do

:42:41.:42:43.

it to themselves is very, very shocking. Now the last British

:42:44.:42:51.

combat soldiers should be out of Afghanistan by the end of the year.

:42:52.:42:54.

This country's claim and the claim of all of NATO is the deadline

:42:55.:42:57.

doesn't mark the end of commitment, merely a change of activity. They

:42:58.:43:02.

would like to have agreed with the Afghan Government precisely how that

:43:03.:43:05.

will work, but that has not been possible, either because of

:43:06.:43:08.

President is a lame duck and won't be in office much longer, or perhaps

:43:09.:43:14.

because he's just difficult. So our defence correspondent jumped at the

:43:15.:43:19.

chance to find out how the NATO secretary-general, Anders Fogh

:43:20.:43:25.

Rasmussen, saw things. NATO combat troops must be out of Afghanistan by

:43:26.:43:28.

the end of this year. And there is no agreement over what will follow.

:43:29.:43:36.

So, plans to create a force of NATO advisers, even the details of who

:43:37.:43:41.

will pay the Afghan Army, are up in the air, and western security chiefs

:43:42.:43:46.

are deeply unhappy. I'm concerned that if there is no present

:43:47.:43:51.

international presence in Afghanistan, after 2014, it would

:43:52.:43:55.

also be difficult to generate financial resources to sustain the

:43:56.:43:59.

Afghan security forces, that means they will not be able to pay

:44:00.:44:05.

salaries. Of course that won a -- would be a major security concern. A

:44:06.:44:12.

security force of that size goes well beyond the financial capacity

:44:13.:44:17.

of the Afghan Government. And if we can't generate financial support,

:44:18.:44:20.

they will be faced with major problems. And this is the reason why

:44:21.:44:25.

I do believe that at the end of the day we will get the signature on the

:44:26.:44:29.

security agreement. It is interesting that you are confident

:44:30.:44:32.

about that. What does that then say about the behaviour of President

:44:33.:44:42.

Karzai, in initially assembly tribunal tribal leaders to ratify

:44:43.:44:46.

that, and then saying he would never sign it. Is that playing politics?

:44:47.:44:54.

Obviously it is politics but it is remarkable that representatives from

:44:55.:45:03.

the Afghan society at large conveyed a very clear message to President

:45:04.:45:09.

Karzai as well as the international community, we want an international

:45:10.:45:15.

military presence after that date, and we urge the President to sign as

:45:16.:45:19.

soon as possible. To go to the bottom lion, I don't think President

:45:20.:45:23.

Karzai will sign. So probably it will be for a new President, after

:45:24.:45:28.

the presidential elections to sign a security agreement that would allow

:45:29.:45:33.

us to stay after 2014. When you hear the things President Karzai says

:45:34.:45:39.

about this agreement. Saying he won't sign it, leaving the problem

:45:40.:45:43.

for his successor, about the sacrifice of NATO soldiers, his

:45:44.:45:48.

assertions that there was no improvement of security in the

:45:49.:45:51.

south, it would have been better if they had never gone to places like

:45:52.:45:54.

Helmand Province, you must despair at his statements sometimes?

:45:55.:45:59.

Personally I have an excellent relationship with President Karzai.

:46:00.:46:03.

But having said that, I also have to say that such statements are

:46:04.:46:12.

something like playing with fire. Because we shouldn't underestimate

:46:13.:46:18.

the damaging effect on public and political support for our presence

:46:19.:46:23.

in Afghanistan when people hear such statements. We have invested a lot

:46:24.:46:30.

in blood and treasure in Afghanistan. Also because of our own

:46:31.:46:34.

security, but through our efforts we have created a framework for a

:46:35.:46:40.

better Afghanistan. So honestly speaking I do think people in our

:46:41.:46:49.

countries would expect some lines of gratitude from the Afghan political

:46:50.:46:55.

leadership. There is another worry too, about Syria, after two

:46:56.:46:59.

shipments of chemical weapons under an international deal, Syria has

:47:00.:47:04.

stopped delivering. Citing security concerns. Some American decision

:47:05.:47:09.

makers think it may be time to reconsider military options. I

:47:10.:47:14.

really urge the Syrian Government to live up to its obligations according

:47:15.:47:19.

to the UN Security Council resolution. And I also hope the

:47:20.:47:23.

Russians will put a lot of pressure on the Syrian Government. When does

:47:24.:47:28.

that threat have to go back on the table do you think? If this deal

:47:29.:47:32.

continues to faulter? The Americans have declared that it is still on

:47:33.:47:39.

the table but I think we should give diplomacy a chance. Now the Syrian

:47:40.:47:46.

Government has actually agreed to eliminate chemical weapons. They

:47:47.:47:49.

have joined the international treaty against the use of chemical weapons,

:47:50.:47:53.

so far so good. But now it is a question about the implementation,

:47:54.:47:57.

and they must, of course, comply with the UN Security Council

:47:58.:48:09.

resolution. Lastly you are the head of a military-based organisation,

:48:10.:48:14.

how do you feel that the leaders of that organisation are reluctant to

:48:15.:48:18.

commit their troops to new military adventures, and to pay the sort of

:48:19.:48:22.

amount they used to pay towards their common defence? When

:48:23.:48:27.

Governments are forced to cut deficits and carry through deep cuts

:48:28.:48:32.

across the board, it is difficult to suggest that defence should be

:48:33.:48:39.

exempted, but it is matter of concern taking into account that

:48:40.:48:41.

other powers in the world invest more and more in security and

:48:42.:48:45.

defence, and at the end of the day it means that we will have less

:48:46.:48:50.

influence on the international scene, the vacuum will be filled by

:48:51.:48:55.

other powers, and they do not necessarily share our interests and

:48:56.:49:04.

our values. That was the secretary-general of NATO. The front

:49:05.:49:06.

pages now: That's all from us, the video we

:49:07.:49:33.

will leave you with tonight, it has been suggested, may be a fake, not

:49:34.:49:37.

that it bothers us, but if it is real then the people involved are

:49:38.:49:42.

very stupid indeed. You decide. Good night.

:49:43.:49:51.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, including the former UKIP spokesman who led a kidnap gang in Pakistan, education reform, Hillsbororough, and Richard Curtis on Philip Seymour Hoffman. With Jeremy Paxman.


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