20/02/2014 Newsnight


20/02/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, with Laura Kuenssberg.


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Transcript


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Last night's promise of peace just one of the casualties of what looks

:00:15.:00:19.

like war. The White House has expressed its outrage, EU leaders

:00:20.:00:24.

have agreed sanctions, but with blood on the streets already what

:00:25.:00:28.

can they really achieve, as the turmoil spreads far beyond the

:00:29.:00:33.

capital. Should buying sex be illegal? We can reveal an important

:00:34.:00:37.

group of British politicians think so. But other countries are relaxing

:00:38.:00:42.

the rules. We report from Europe's biggest brothel. Do you enjoy it as

:00:43.:00:48.

a job? When you have nice men, of course. When you don't? Then I'm

:00:49.:00:54.

also not so friendly. The fallen Queen of the tabloid starts to tell

:00:55.:01:02.

her story. Brooks Brookes Rebekah Brooks begins her defence in the

:01:03.:01:08.

hacking trial. After David Bowie's game-changing intervention in the

:01:09.:01:11.

Scottish independence debate. We are joined by the man who fell to the

:01:12.:01:23.

Newsnight studio or kind of. Good evening, 75 demonstrators are

:01:24.:01:28.

dead. Nearly 70 policemen have been taken hostage. This is not just a

:01:29.:01:32.

battle for the Ukrainian capital's main square, but a violent fight for

:01:33.:01:36.

the future of a country that now feels on the edge of war on the edge

:01:37.:01:43.

of Europe. The White House is angry, the EU trying tough diplomacy, but

:01:44.:01:46.

no-one seems to have a clear idea of how to stop the fighting. Gabriel

:01:47.:01:53.

Gatehouse in Kiev is there for us tonight. He has been on the streets.

:01:54.:02:01.

As you would expect his report has disturbing images.

:02:02.:02:18.

The truce didn't last long. This morning Kiev again awoke to the

:02:19.:02:28.

sound of gunfire. A small group of protestors was trying to retake

:02:29.:02:40.

ground (gunfire) They were met by sniper fire with deadly results. She

:02:41.:03:00.

has just said there are six dead people up there, not just injured,

:03:01.:03:09.

dead. They have been hit by snipers. Some of the demonstrators pulled

:03:10.:03:13.

back, dragging their injured comrades to safety, under a hail of

:03:14.:03:26.

bullets fired by Government forces. The fighting has moved up, as they

:03:27.:03:34.

tried to retake some of the territory taken off them by the

:03:35.:03:37.

police some days ago. These are the injured and the bangs remember

:03:38.:03:45.

hearing is real gunfire. The nearby Hotel Ukraine, where we and other

:03:46.:03:49.

journalists were saying turned into a makeshift triage centre. One of

:03:50.:03:53.

the first to be brought in was this man. Is there an exit wound? He had

:03:54.:03:59.

taken a bullet through the thigh. Easy. Another lay on the floor of

:04:00.:04:05.

the lobby, bleeding profusely from his foot. The priest's services were

:04:06.:04:13.

not required, both of these men survived. We left the hotel and

:04:14.:04:18.

ventured up towards the new frontline. The majority of the

:04:19.:04:27.

gunfire seemed to be coming from police lines. But not all of it.

:04:28.:04:37.

From one of the upper windows of the hotel, a shot rang out. Up there,

:04:38.:04:46.

our hotel. That window, fifth row from the left, second from the top,

:04:47.:04:51.

one that was open. I saw the shooter, he was wearing one of the

:04:52.:04:57.

protesters' green helmets. The number of people injured today must

:04:58.:05:01.

have reached well into the hundreds. They just kept on coming, some still

:05:02.:05:06.

defiant as they were stretchered off. At the same time fresh

:05:07.:05:12.

protestors came forward to man the new barricades. TRANSLATION: We

:05:13.:05:19.

broke through police lines right here says, it was our initiative,

:05:20.:05:29.

they are unpredictable. So are we. The Mayor of Kiev announced he was

:05:30.:05:32.

joining the opposition and invited the police force to join him. It is

:05:33.:05:36.

not clear if any have taken him up on that offer. In other parts of

:05:37.:05:39.

Ukraine, especially the west, there are reports that security forces are

:05:40.:05:43.

refusing to follow orders to crack down on the protesters. You have to

:05:44.:05:48.

be careful, of course, with comparison, but we have seen this

:05:49.:05:53.

happen in other countries. Peaceful demonstrations eventually turning

:05:54.:05:58.

violent. Look at that up there, that was the headquarters of the

:05:59.:06:03.

protestors, until it was ransacked, firebombed and now it is smoking

:06:04.:06:09.

remains. This is no longer just a protest movement, this is becoming a

:06:10.:06:14.

rebellion. And the question now is how much further both sides are

:06:15.:06:19.

prepared to push this. This afternoon two armoured personnel

:06:20.:06:24.

arriers were parked just beyond the new frontline. The Interior Minister

:06:25.:06:29.

said police would be issued with firearms. On Independence Square

:06:30.:06:33.

protesters were busy clearing the beenbury left behind in the --

:06:34.:06:36.

debris left behind in the areas newly captured from the authorities.

:06:37.:06:40.

Judges by the hundreds of cartridges they found, there is already no

:06:41.:06:45.

shortage of guns. Very west visited the office of the mayor, the one who

:06:46.:06:48.

said he had defected to the opposition. He was nowhere to be

:06:49.:06:52.

seen. But the place is full of demonstrators, resting, recharging

:06:53.:06:57.

their batteries, waiting for the next battle. These people too are

:06:58.:07:11.

armed. Sergei told us his men had captured 30 police officers this

:07:12.:07:15.

morning, confiscating their weapons and ammunition. His colleague,

:07:16.:07:20.

Mariam told me how he helped to seize the officers. TRANSLATION:

:07:21.:07:28.

They got a beating from us. I won't lie. But then we delivered them to

:07:29.:07:33.

the protest authorities, they will decide their fate. I asked him and

:07:34.:07:37.

his comrades whether they were worried that the protest was turning

:07:38.:07:41.

to conflict? They all agreed this is already war. Gabriel joins us now

:07:42.:07:48.

from his hotel in central Kiev. Appalling violence today, it has

:07:49.:07:52.

gone way beyond protest. Is it revolution or is it war? Well this

:07:53.:08:00.

afternoon we saw eight bodies of the dead laid out on the street, the

:08:01.:08:04.

overwhelming initial reaction, I think, was shock, and grief. People

:08:05.:08:09.

pouring in to pay their respects and ask why is this happening. But of

:08:10.:08:13.

course with every death the bitterness and the division grows.

:08:14.:08:17.

And if you look across Ukraine you see in the west more protests,

:08:18.:08:22.

Government buildings being taken over. One local governor being

:08:23.:08:26.

hauled out of his offices and handcuffed to the front. In the east

:08:27.:08:32.

traditionally thought to be more Russian-facing, we heard a local

:08:33.:08:35.

governor talking about a clampdown on those who undermine state

:08:36.:08:43.

authority. In the Crimea, other statements. This feels like a real

:08:44.:08:47.

threat of Civil War. It is not there yet. Sometimes it feels on the

:08:48.:08:51.

streets of this capital like the talks of division of split are a

:08:52.:08:54.

little bit overdone and that one thing that many Ukrainians have in

:08:55.:08:58.

common, they often say they just want to live together in a country

:08:59.:09:03.

free from corruption. And briefly, the diplomatic machine is now being

:09:04.:09:06.

cranked up in the west. But does that even feel relevant where you

:09:07.:09:12.

are? On the streets I have to say it feels very irrelevant, just briefly

:09:13.:09:16.

to tell you what's happened. Both Russia, the US and the EU have said

:09:17.:09:20.

they have come together to try to broker a solution, but then you see

:09:21.:09:23.

the divisions there and the diplomatic game. The EU and the US

:09:24.:09:27.

introducing sanctions against those they see as responsible for the

:09:28.:09:31.

violence. Russia saying that this is an attempted coup on the streets, as

:09:32.:09:36.

said, people finding this utterly irrelevant, they say they just want

:09:37.:09:40.

to get rid of the Government. Thank you very much indeed. As was

:09:41.:09:45.

suggested the unrest has not been confined to Ukraine's capital, but

:09:46.:09:49.

spreading right across the country. Protests have also rocked cities in

:09:50.:09:53.

the broadly pro-western regions of the country. In Lutsk, the governor

:09:54.:10:00.

appointed by President Yanukovych was seized by anti-Government

:10:01.:10:05.

protesters and frog marched in handcuffs to stage in the city's

:10:06.:10:08.

main square, after he refused to resign. Here protestors set fire to

:10:09.:10:13.

the local headquarters of the Government security forces and took

:10:14.:10:16.

control of several Government buildings. And in this area,

:10:17.:10:23.

anti-Government forces stormed the local Security Services building.

:10:24.:10:28.

But in the broadly pro-Government east of Ukraine there were few signs

:10:29.:10:36.

of unrest. In fact, in the city of Donetsk a group of miners set off to

:10:37.:10:41.

Kiev to support the Government beleaguered forces. Joining us in

:10:42.:10:45.

the west of the country is a student activist and one of the protesters.

:10:46.:10:50.

Thank you for joining us, is the Kiev Government in charge where you

:10:51.:10:55.

are? Good evening to you. I wouldn't be you know, I don't want to say

:10:56.:11:04.

this because we are ready to support every single sane idea and every

:11:05.:11:07.

single sane instruction that comes to us. But whenever lately,

:11:08.:11:13.

especially we have been instructed in such an utter horrible

:11:14.:11:20.

instructions, you know, we didn't obey that. So I can say the

:11:21.:11:26.

Government is in charge, I can't say that, I have to say people are in

:11:27.:11:31.

charge. If the Government refuses to budge and leave, how long will you

:11:32.:11:34.

keep on protesting, how long will you keep on fighting? Till we reach

:11:35.:11:40.

our end. There is no other choice for us. The choices are either this

:11:41.:11:46.

Government goes down and the, actually somebody hears the voices

:11:47.:11:49.

of the people, or we're just going to stand there until it happens,

:11:50.:11:54.

that's it. Does that mean war? Not necessarily, no. At the moment let's

:11:55.:12:00.

say in my city we are having a civilian police controlling the

:12:01.:12:03.

public and not allowing any more violence. So we're not, we want to

:12:04.:12:09.

be peaceful. We want to stand until something has changed. With us now

:12:10.:12:15.

are Alexander Nekrassov a former Kremlin adviser and Robert Brinkley

:12:16.:12:18.

who was the British ambassador in Ukraine. Firstly to you Robert, you

:12:19.:12:23.

know this country very well, is it slipping into Civil War? I don't

:12:24.:12:27.

know if we can yet call it "Civil War", but there is clearly very

:12:28.:12:31.

serious protests. The pictures in the film earlier were horrifying

:12:32.:12:34.

what is happening in Kiev, a city I know well and love. Which was a

:12:35.:12:38.

peaceful city, even through the orange revolution when there was

:12:39.:12:41.

half a million people out on the streets for weeks on end. Then there

:12:42.:12:43.

was no bloodshed. Now very different. So there is a civil

:12:44.:12:48.

conflict, but the actual conflict and the fighting is still confined

:12:49.:12:52.

in a very small area of the capital city. But we have seen how it is

:12:53.:12:54.

spreading across the country. Alexander Nekrassov is there a real

:12:55.:13:01.

risk here of civil war? Of course there is, the problem is the so

:13:02.:13:04.

called opposition has been hijacked by radicals who are now arming the

:13:05.:13:09.

followers. What I find strange to be honest with you is we have seen the

:13:10.:13:12.

report by your correspondent, why didn't he talk to the other side.

:13:13.:13:16.

Why didn't he talk to any official in Kiev and ask him what is going on

:13:17.:13:21.

the other side. Why didn't we see any dead policemen. I have seen

:13:22.:13:26.

footage on the Russian media where a group of protestors beat a policeman

:13:27.:13:30.

to death with bricks. Now why don't you show this for once. Because you

:13:31.:13:34.

are always showing these protesters as if they are some freedom

:13:35.:13:39.

fighters. We have seen very clearly the Ukrainian security forces using

:13:40.:13:44.

AK-46s on people in the streets. We don't know, we are not sure if they

:13:45.:13:47.

are armed but it was clearly very serious violence. And in the west of

:13:48.:13:51.

the country are you calling that girl a violent radical? I'm talking

:13:52.:13:55.

about the people who are armed snipers and shooting at everybody.

:13:56.:13:59.

The problem is that when you say the police were armed, they did not have

:14:00.:14:04.

any live ammunition until the protesters, the "protestors" because

:14:05.:14:09.

they are basically insurgents if they are armed, they started

:14:10.:14:12.

shooting and killing policemen. On Tuesday it was announced that 25

:14:13.:14:16.

people were dead, nobody bothered to say that 12 were policemen. This is

:14:17.:14:21.

very biased. Is he right about that? Well, certainly there was some

:14:22.:14:24.

policemen among the dead on Tuesday. Can I say that all violence in this

:14:25.:14:30.

situation is to be condemned, whoever is responsible for it. But

:14:31.:14:34.

the fact is that the vast majority of the protesters have been

:14:35.:14:37.

peaceful. There has been a small number, a couple of hundred, a few

:14:38.:14:41.

hundred maybe who have engaged in violence in the last couple of

:14:42.:14:46.

weeks. That is reprehensible, it is not to be cone doned. But the

:14:47.:14:51.

Government, President Yanukovych has had three months to try to resolve

:14:52.:14:55.

this situation. And they have let it fester and that's why the

:14:56.:15:09.

radicalisation has grown. G Putin go along with this violence? I think

:15:10.:15:13.

Putin and the whole leadership are worried and anxious about this

:15:14.:15:17.

situation growing and growing and turning into civil war. Let me point

:15:18.:15:23.

out another thing, before the Ukrainian Government and the

:15:24.:15:25.

Ukrainian President refused to sign that agreement with the EU, no-one

:15:26.:15:30.

in the west was criticising him, no-one was talking about corruption

:15:31.:15:35.

in the Ukraine. He suited them. The moment he said we're not going to

:15:36.:15:39.

sign this, suddenly everything changes. You are disagreeing? I have

:15:40.:15:44.

to disagree with that, Yanukovych, well before this has had a very bad

:15:45.:15:49.

reputation for corruption, for enriching himself and his family.

:15:50.:15:52.

That is why he's so desperately unpopular in the country. And what

:15:53.:15:57.

started off as a protest out of shock that the Government had

:15:58.:16:00.

suddenly done a U-turn on the association agreement with the

:16:01.:16:03.

European Union very quickly turned into major protests against

:16:04.:16:06.

Yanukovych. What we are seeing now is these protests right across the

:16:07.:16:11.

country, would Russia ever tolerate part of the Ukraine, the west,

:16:12.:16:15.

breaking away and splitering off? It is very difficult to say now.

:16:16.:16:20.

Because we snowed to resolve this situation -- need to resolve this

:16:21.:16:34.

situation first. We are seeing at the protesters go and take orders

:16:35.:16:38.

from America. Do you have evidence of that? On Monday all the prisoners

:16:39.:16:42.

who were arrested during the violence were released. Immediately

:16:43.:16:45.

a provocation is organised on Tuesday near the parliament building

:16:46.:16:48.

and they started attacking the parliament building. How does that

:16:49.:16:52.

happen? Who gives these orders, and explain to me one thing that I would

:16:53.:16:56.

love to ask your correspondent, how is it that peaceful or semi-peaceful

:16:57.:17:02.

unarmed protesters are with standing attacks by armed police. This I

:17:03.:17:06.

don't understand. Ambassador is that even vaguely plausible that some how

:17:07.:17:11.

this is being masterminded by EU leaders like America? I don't find

:17:12.:17:14.

it plausible at all. What happened on Tuesday was that the opposition

:17:15.:17:19.

were expecting the parliament to start debating reform to the

:17:20.:17:24.

constitution to remove some of the additional presidential powers which

:17:25.:17:27.

Yanukovych has given himself. Instead Yanukovych's party said

:17:28.:17:30.

there would be no debate on that. We must leave it there, thank you very

:17:31.:17:35.

much indeed for coming in. You Newsnight has seen the final report

:17:36.:17:39.

from a group of MPs that will say buying sex should be against the law

:17:40.:17:44.

in England and Wales. That would follow Sweden, Norway and soon

:17:45.:17:48.

France where the clients of prostitutes are considered

:17:49.:17:52.

criminals. But other European countries are going in the opposite

:17:53.:17:55.

direction, legalising the trade. In a moment we will ask which route we

:17:56.:18:01.

should take, but first Germany has the most liberal laws. It has been

:18:02.:18:05.

very good for a certain kind of business. We have been allowed to

:18:06.:18:09.

film inside Europe's biggest brothel. And a warning, there are

:18:10.:18:13.

images of nudity from the very start of this report.

:18:14.:18:27.

This is the result of an experiment, one its critics say has gone badly

:18:28.:18:38.

wrong. In 2002 Germany legalised the buying and selling of sex. The 16

:18:39.:18:43.

billion euro industry is now dominated by so called megabrothels

:18:44.:18:52.

like this. Paradise in Stuttgart is the largest of its kind, at a cost

:18:53.:18:57.

of ?5 million, it is home to 80 women and hundreds of male customers

:18:58.:19:02.

every night. The sex trade here is so out in the open, it can feel a

:19:03.:19:07.

bit uncomfortable, even shocking at first. But large brothels like this

:19:08.:19:11.

have now spread across cities in this country. The decision to relax

:19:12.:19:16.

prostitution laws in 2002 was meant to make life safer for sex workers,

:19:17.:19:21.

critics say it has just made Germany into the bored Dell low of Europe.

:19:22.:19:26.

-- bordello of Europe. Most of the people here didn't want to appear on

:19:27.:19:31.

camera. But the brothel said 22-year-old Hannah would speak to

:19:32.:19:35.

us. She has been working in the sex industry for two years, sleeping

:19:36.:19:39.

with five other six men a night. I started at 6.00 and finish 3.00 in

:19:40.:19:46.

the morning, and it is OK. I can say no when I don't like. I can search

:19:47.:19:52.

what like. I don't have to do anything that the men like, I do

:19:53.:19:55.

what I want. How much could you earn, or how much could a girl in

:19:56.:20:00.

general earn in one night? Totally depends. So you can make from

:20:01.:20:09.

100-1,000 euros, it depends on it. 1,000 euros a night? When you have

:20:10.:20:15.

luck, it can be, but not often. If prostitution was banned in Germany,

:20:16.:20:20.

if these places didn't exist, would you still work as a prostitute? No.

:20:21.:20:30.

Then it is not safe. So you wouldn't work at all in that area? No, it is

:20:31.:20:35.

really too dangerous, too many crazy people. Do you enjoy it as a job?

:20:36.:20:40.

When I have a nice man, of course. When you don't? Then I'm also not so

:20:41.:20:48.

friendly. This is a good thing. You don't have to be every time

:20:49.:20:52.

friendly. These are working rooms, can you look inside here, very nice

:20:53.:20:56.

rooms. By treating it as a job like any other, the idea was to price

:20:57.:21:00.

women away from the pimps that run the trade. Sex workers can now pay

:21:01.:21:04.

into social security and demand health insurance. But, partly as a

:21:05.:21:09.

result of the new law, the number of prostitutes in Germany is thought to

:21:10.:21:13.

have doubled to 400,000. Most of the women here are from Eastern Europe,

:21:14.:21:18.

countries like Romania and Bulgaria. Critics say the policy has led to a

:21:19.:21:22.

rise in trafficking, as girls are shipped in to meet demand. The

:21:23.:21:29.

people who own and run large brothel chains strongly deny that's the

:21:30.:21:30.

case. Does it also increase prostitution

:21:31.:22:03.

in general in Germany having places like this?

:22:04.:22:21.

Germany now has the most liberal prostitution laws in Europe. It is

:22:22.:22:28.

one of handful of countries alongside the Netherlands to have

:22:29.:22:31.

legalised the profession. In the UK the buying and selling of sex is

:22:32.:22:35.

technically legal, but brothels, kerb crawling and solacetation are

:22:36.:22:39.

all against the law. At the other end of the spectrum, Sweden, Norway

:22:40.:22:45.

and Iceland, they are selling sex legally, instead it is the man

:22:46.:22:50.

paying for it who is punished with a heavy fine and prison. The same

:22:51.:22:53.

Swedish model is being considered by Northern Ireland and six other

:22:54.:22:56.

countries. Most notably France where legislation is going through

:22:57.:23:06.

parliament model is being considered by Northern Ireland and six other

:23:07.:23:08.

countries. Most notably France where legislation is going through

:23:09.:23:10.

parliament. When the new law goes through it means everyone in France

:23:11.:23:12.

could get a fine, where a few hundred metres over there

:23:13.:23:15.

prostitution will be legal. Both countries are going in completely

:23:16.:23:18.

different directions when it comes to tackling exploitation and the sex

:23:19.:23:32.

trade. For some that is a clear business opportunity. On the

:23:33.:23:37.

outskirts of the city workers are busy on the new Paradise Brothel.

:23:38.:23:43.

The sixth the chain has built across Austria. From next month 80 women a

:23:44.:23:47.

night will work in the 30 or so private rooms here.

:23:48.:23:58.

Critics will say what they are trying to do in France is protect

:23:59.:24:02.

women there. What you are doing is quite a cynical way to exploit a

:24:03.:24:05.

change in the law. But if the idea behind legalisation

:24:06.:24:27.

was to drag the industry into the light, then here that hasn't

:24:28.:24:31.

happened. There are a number of regulated brothels here, but on a

:24:32.:24:34.

cold Friday night there are still young girls working the streets. The

:24:35.:24:40.

city's left-wing mayor supported the decision to relax prostitution law,

:24:41.:24:43.

she has firmly changed her mind. But for the moment the EU appears

:24:44.:25:27.

split down the middle on the sex trade. Next month a parliamentary

:25:28.:25:32.

inquiry in the UK will recommend we reject legalisation and officially

:25:33.:25:37.

criminalise the buying of sex for the first time. Whichever direction

:25:38.:25:41.

Europe follows, whether it is the liberal, German or strict Swedish

:25:42.:25:46.

approach, that could decide the way thousands of women and men are

:25:47.:25:50.

treated for decades to come. Joining me now are Laura Lee a sex worker

:25:51.:25:56.

and spokes person for the Internationl Union of Sex Workers.

:25:57.:26:00.

Dr Belinda Brooks-Gordon, author of The Price of Sex, Dorcas Erskine,

:26:01.:26:04.

who works with traffiked women, and Mary Honeyball a Labour MEP who

:26:05.:26:07.

campaigns in Brussels on just this issue. Welcome to you all. Laura

:26:08.:26:12.

Lee, firstly to you, just to be completely clear about this, men pay

:26:13.:26:16.

you for sex, that's been your career for many years? Yes, they do. Men

:26:17.:26:21.

indeed pay me for sex, I have been a sex worker now for just under 20

:26:22.:26:25.

years. I love my job. I truly do, and I don't believe I'm quit the

:26:26.:26:28.

different from the vast majority in saying that. The current proposals

:26:29.:26:33.

that are on the table really concern me because it seems to me that it

:26:34.:26:37.

will create a police state, because when consenting adults are having

:26:38.:26:41.

sex that is none of the state's business. But when you see the rules

:26:42.:26:45.

relaxed so far that there is that kind of warehousing of sex, like in

:26:46.:26:50.

that megabrothel, what do you make of that, would you be happy to work

:26:51.:26:54.

somewhere like that? Personally speaking would I be happy to work in

:26:55.:26:59.

a megabrothel, yes. I'm not saying the sex industry is for everybody

:27:00.:27:03.

necessarily, it is my choice and I love what I do and the same can be

:27:04.:27:07.

said for many of my colleagues. My big concern with the current push

:27:08.:27:11.

going on is the voices of sex workers have not been heard or

:27:12.:27:14.

consulted. Belinda Brooks-Gordon you also believe the rules should be

:27:15.:27:18.

relaxed to such an extent that sex businesses should even pay tax, be

:27:19.:27:23.

formalised like that? That is the circumstance in Austria and

:27:24.:27:27.

Switzerland, you never hear problems of those states. What is interesting

:27:28.:27:32.

is areas where it is very prohibited, Thailand, Jamaica, it is

:27:33.:27:37.

actually more visible. We should treat it like any other business

:27:38.:27:41.

like selling bread and milk down the shops? Not like any other business.

:27:42.:27:44.

For example the situation in Germany is that people can't be made to go

:27:45.:27:49.

into that business in the labour exchange, for example. And the

:27:50.:27:52.

client can't enforce the contract. But the sex worker can if he doesn't

:27:53.:27:57.

pay. Mary Honeyball nice bit of cash for the Treasury? It doesn't work

:27:58.:28:01.

quite like that in Germany. There are about 400,000 women who work in

:28:02.:28:06.

prostitution across Germany. They are supposed to have access to

:28:07.:28:09.

healthcare, be able to claim benefits and all those sorts of

:28:10.:28:13.

things that Belinda talked about. They don't, at the last count only

:28:14.:28:18.

44 out of those 400,000 had actually done that. So it isn't nice money

:28:19.:28:22.

for the Treasury. You have to ask why those women working in

:28:23.:28:25.

prostitution doesn't actually come forward and take advantage of what

:28:26.:28:28.

the state claims that they will give them. Many of them, Dorcas Erskine,

:28:29.:28:33.

like Laura here said they made a choice to do this for a living. Do

:28:34.:28:37.

you have a problem with the choice they make, a problem with the choice

:28:38.:28:42.

that Laura has made? No with respect to lawyer a she seems happy with the

:28:43.:28:49.

choice she made. She doesn't represent the vast majority of

:28:50.:28:53.

people in prostitution, please don't interrupt me. I believe laws are

:28:54.:28:58.

made not to protect the minority who are fine but the majority who are

:28:59.:29:01.

not. Even people who do not agree with our stance on prostitution, I

:29:02.:29:08.

quote research from someone who is very verdant about our stance on

:29:09.:29:11.

prostitution that they did for the Home Office. They noted most of the

:29:12.:29:15.

women they interviewed had entered prostitution at the age of 13 years

:29:16.:29:19.

old. That 78% of them were in the care system and that a lot of them

:29:20.:29:24.

also came from migrant backgrounds. Those are people who are vulnerable.

:29:25.:29:28.

And I don't believe that making a choice of very limited economic

:29:29.:29:32.

choices is the best that we can offer women in those vulnerable

:29:33.:29:39.

states. I believe that as soon as Eton and Cheltenham ladies

:29:40.:29:43.

colleagues put on the curriculum that prostitution is available for

:29:44.:29:47.

everyone to do for every social class and race and economic

:29:48.:29:50.

background, then let's talk about choice but we are not there yet. Are

:29:51.:29:56.

you saying that sex work and legal class doesn't exist? I'm not, I'm

:29:57.:30:00.

saying the majority of women who work in it are women who are from

:30:01.:30:04.

these socioeconomic backgrounds. That is not what the evidence says.

:30:05.:30:12.

Actually the evidence does that. We can pinpoint back and forth about

:30:13.:30:16.

this and that research. On the wider issue, the wider issue is. Research

:30:17.:30:23.

is important. Why should sex be... . Why is it for you to tell her what

:30:24.:30:28.

to do for a living? I'm not. Which is why I respect the Swedish model

:30:29.:30:33.

which Mary is putting forward. I really do not believe, and it really

:30:34.:30:37.

annoys me that the state criminalises women in prostitution,

:30:38.:30:40.

especially when they come from these backgrounds. I believe we need to

:30:41.:30:44.

look at criminalising the buyer. The Swedish model where the client

:30:45.:30:48.

becomes the criminal, but Laura? I'm not speaking from research or

:30:49.:30:52.

papers, I'm speaking from 20 years of on the ground absolute experience

:30:53.:30:56.

in the sex industry. As to your not representative argument, I have

:30:57.:31:00.

worked in five-star Penthouse apartments down to what could be

:31:01.:31:03.

reasonably described as a chicken coup and everything inbetween, I

:31:04.:31:08.

have met some very, very desperate women in those circumstance, but to

:31:09.:31:11.

criminalise the buyer of the sex act is not the way forward. You need to

:31:12.:31:18.

hit the traffickers. 1,140 women in our organisation have been trafficed

:31:19.:31:21.

your experience can't be the only voice to hear. Whether you like the

:31:22.:31:25.

idea of prostitution or not, whether you want to accept it or not, and

:31:26.:31:28.

many people do not understandably, isn't it better however to have

:31:29.:31:32.

women inside a place of business where they are safe, where they are

:31:33.:31:36.

inside and not having the trade pushed to dark corners in unsafe

:31:37.:31:40.

parts of our cities? I would like to challenge the dark corpers idea. If

:31:41.:31:46.

the buyer is criminalised the woman who is not the criminal can come

:31:47.:31:51.

forward. On the trafficking issue, there is good evidence from Sweden,

:31:52.:31:55.

gathered by the Swedish police that trafficking has actually halved in

:31:56.:31:58.

Sweden since the law was introduced there in 1999ue, there is good

:31:59.:32:17.

evidence from Sweden, gathered by the Swedish police that trafficking

:32:18.:32:19.

has actually halved in Sweden since the law was introduced there in

:32:20.:32:21.

1999. I think that Swedish model with the criminalising of those

:32:22.:32:26.

buying the sex has brought a drop. Are you saying there is something

:32:27.:32:30.

wrong with having sex. Purchasing or paying for sex would not be

:32:31.:32:34.

considered by many people? What is the subtle difference between

:32:35.:32:39.

consenting adults behind closed doors having transactional sex, and

:32:40.:32:54.

it is sometimes just time. Let her finish and I will bring you in. The

:32:55.:33:00.

Poppy Project have a vested interest. Rather than a row over the

:33:01.:33:04.

statistic, finish your point. You used to think all sorts of things

:33:05.:33:08.

were acceptable, like accepting children up chimneys are acceptable

:33:09.:33:14.

and slavery acceptable, why continue now forever to think it is

:33:15.:33:19.

acceptable? It is only sex and only earning money. The average sex

:33:20.:33:24.

worker will earn over ?50,000 a year, 85% of the sex workers

:33:25.:33:31.

according to the academic they ary. -- theory. On that point, it is only

:33:32.:33:36.

sex it is only money what is so wrong with that? I guess the

:33:37.:33:39.

formulation of that argument is to make it seem like we're

:33:40.:33:45.

conservative, we're quite puritanical, but I don't see what's

:33:46.:33:49.

conservative about saying that sex should be free. I haven't finished

:33:50.:33:55.

and I also don't see what's conservative about believing that we

:33:56.:33:59.

want a society as they are producing in Sweden where men can feel they

:34:00.:34:03.

don't have to purchase sex on the backs of those who are vulnerable,

:34:04.:34:08.

what a radical conservative idea. If it was going forward, what

:34:09.:34:12.

difference would it make to you, if your clients are criminal? Let's

:34:13.:34:16.

bear in mind I work with a lot of disabled clients, guys who are in

:34:17.:34:19.

dire, dire circumstances, not that I'm saying that entitles them to

:34:20.:34:25.

sex, I'm inviting the viewer to take a different view. What an insulting

:34:26.:34:30.

view. Don't talk across of me. Section 39 effectively says the

:34:31.:34:34.

police can come and kick my door in to investigate the fact I'm having

:34:35.:34:40.

consensual sex behind closed doors. Really quickly very briefly on

:34:41.:34:46.

legislation? In the European Parliament not yet. The point is you

:34:47.:34:48.

legislate for the majority. The majority of women who work in

:34:49.:34:54.

prostitution have either been traffiked or have been coming out of

:34:55.:34:57.

care. It is not free choice. There is clearly huge dispute over the

:34:58.:35:00.

numbers and strong views on all sides. We must leave it there, thank

:35:01.:35:04.

you all very much indeed for coming in.

:35:05.:35:09.

Thank you. The life story could be perfect tabloid fodder itself. A

:35:10.:35:12.

girl done good, from sweeping the floors and making the tea at the

:35:13.:35:17.

Warrington Guardian, to one of the most powerful newspaper editor jobs

:35:18.:35:20.

in the land. But the unfortunate twist of the hacking scandal landed

:35:21.:35:24.

Rebekah Brooks in the witness box today, as the defence case began,

:35:25.:35:27.

the judge ordered the jury to acquit her of one of the charges she faced.

:35:28.:35:31.

The one relating to the procurement of pictures of Prince William at

:35:32.:35:36.

Sandhurst. With all that information we have this report.

:35:37.:35:41.

She's best known as one of the most powerful and influential women in

:35:42.:35:44.

the country. Can we have it down for a bit now. Editor of Britain's two

:35:45.:35:49.

biggest-selling tabloids, personally close to prime ministers and a

:35:50.:35:54.

favourite of global media mogul, Rupert Murdoch. But that was then.

:35:55.:35:59.

Today at the Old Bailey, after months of prosecution evidence,

:36:00.:36:03.

Rebekah Brooks finally got the chance to tell her story. The

:36:04.:36:09.

opening exchanges with her QC, John lap Laidlaw, produced lots of the

:36:10.:36:14.

kind of colour, as they call it in the trade, that might well have

:36:15.:36:18.

graced the newspapers that Rebekah Brooks used to. She was born in

:36:19.:36:26.

Cheshire in 1968, an only child she looked after two aged grandparents.

:36:27.:36:32.

She was state educated, her father a gardener, her mother a PA. When she

:36:33.:36:37.

was 21 they split. But she said she had already caught the journalism

:36:38.:36:41.

bug from her grandmother. My grandmother she was a writer, she

:36:42.:36:45.

wrote a lot of poetry and wrote a protestity column for a local

:36:46.:36:48.

number. The idea probably stemmed from her. From a Saturday job at a

:36:49.:36:54.

local paper e owned by newspaper entrepeneur Eddie Shah, to London

:36:55.:36:59.

and the News of the World magazine, and in no time to the features

:37:00.:37:03.

department which she became head of at the age of 26. She described for

:37:04.:37:06.

the jury a very male newsroom culture. Dominated by internal

:37:07.:37:11.

competition. It was also standard practice, she said, for the news and

:37:12.:37:15.

features departments to each keep records of mistake, errors and other

:37:16.:37:19.

Sunday drew information about the other. And so it was Rebekah Brooks,

:37:20.:37:24.

told the court, that the news department had stories about her.

:37:25.:37:35.

That they had labelled "twit 1", "twit 2", "4, 5, 6" and so on. She

:37:36.:37:42.

described it as old school misogyny. But she did well. She brought the

:37:43.:37:50.

paper Gazza's shock confession to domestic violence and the interview

:37:51.:37:56.

with Divine Brown, the prostitute ought in action with Hugh Grant. It

:37:57.:38:02.

cost $250,000, money spent in part to stop colleagues from the Sun and

:38:03.:38:08.

Mail to get to her. It did Rebekah Brooks's helpcation bosses no harm

:38:09.:38:17.

at all. Rupert Murdoch began to take a personal interest, promoting her

:38:18.:38:21.

from features editor to deputy editor at the Sun, a big move

:38:22.:38:25.

considering she had no daily newspaper experience Bach to the

:38:26.:38:31.

Mirror editor, she was 32 years old. It is accepted that at that time

:38:32.:38:35.

significant amounts of phone hacking were going on at the News of the

:38:36.:38:44.

World, and some people have already pleaded guilty. Rebekah Brooks said

:38:45.:38:49.

she didn't even know the name of Glenn Mulcaire. With 125 editions in

:38:50.:38:56.

her two-and-a-half years as editor, 200 stories a week, and double that

:38:57.:39:03.

discussed at some point: It is impossible to know every source of

:39:04.:39:07.

every story because of the sheer volume of material coming into the

:39:08.:39:11.

paper. Which, along with much of the rest of what her QC took her through

:39:12.:39:16.

today will no doubt be a key plank of her defence, to the broad thrust

:39:17.:39:19.

of the prosecution case that she simply must have known what was

:39:20.:39:25.

going on. All the defendants deny all of the charges against them. Now

:39:26.:39:30.

it was meant to be a bit of friendly advise to take a look at what could

:39:31.:39:36.

be a matter of life and death. An e-mail published today revealed the

:39:37.:39:39.

Medical Director of the NHS in England told his counterpart in

:39:40.:39:43.

Wales that death rates in six Welsh hospitals ought to be investigated.

:39:44.:39:48.

Sir Bruce Keogh described the figures as "worrying". Similar types

:39:49.:39:54.

of data provided the vital clues as to what was going appallingly wrong

:39:55.:39:58.

at Stafford Hospital. But the Welsh authorities say so far there is no

:39:59.:40:01.

need to make further inquiries, whatever the data, some Welsh

:40:02.:40:04.

families believe they have been badly let down. Our policy editor

:40:05.:40:13.

has been to meet one of them. There was birth and condition, if you want

:40:14.:40:18.

to put it that way it was a result of the birth, subsequently his death

:40:19.:40:22.

was, and because he died in the situation around it the coroner had

:40:23.:40:26.

ordered an inquest. Which no parent should have to sit through. Noah

:40:27.:40:33.

Tyler died ten months old in December 2011. A coroner as

:40:34.:40:38.

described his dead to a gross failure in the care provider to him

:40:39.:40:44.

and his mother Colleen Tyler at the University Hospital of Wales in

:40:45.:41:01.

Cardiffder to him and his mother Colleen Tyler at the University

:41:02.:41:03.

Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. When she was born she was upstairs and he

:41:04.:41:06.

was put on a cooling mat to stop brain-damage. He had tubes and wires

:41:07.:41:13.

going in and out of everywhere. That is what the birth of Noah. His is

:41:14.:41:19.

just one of the cases that have contributed to high death rates

:41:20.:41:24.

among the hospitals' patients. Now a senior medical official who has just

:41:25.:41:28.

completed a review of 14 low-performing hospitals in England

:41:29.:41:33.

wants an inquiry. Sir Bruce Keogh, Medical Director of NHS England,

:41:34.:41:37.

wrote to his counterpart in Wales to suggest that he too should hold a

:41:38.:41:41.

similar investigation. Sir Bruce said that there are six hospitals in

:41:42.:41:45.

Wales, including University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff that show

:41:46.:41:50.

persistently high mortality rates. The letter itself is receipt weeks

:41:51.:41:55.

ordinary. Sir Bruce, an official with responsibility in England,

:41:56.:42:00.

takes direct issue with the quality of care in Wales. He said that those

:42:01.:42:08.

hospitals with poor mortality warranted investigation. He admitted

:42:09.:42:12.

he was worried about the political implications of that. Mortality

:42:13.:42:15.

statistics need to be treated with caution, but they can highlight

:42:16.:42:23.

serious problems. It was mortality numbers that first highlighted the

:42:24.:42:27.

hor roughically poor levels of care in Staffordshire. The Conservative

:42:28.:42:32.

MP who uncovered Sir Bruce's e-mail says Wales has failed to learn the

:42:33.:42:35.

lessons of that strategy. It is particularly appalling because it is

:42:36.:42:39.

so reminiscent of what we saw with mid-staffs, instead of saying good

:42:40.:42:44.

niece me what should -- goodness me what should we do with this data to

:42:45.:42:47.

make sure there is a problem. The reaction is there is nothing wrong

:42:48.:42:51.

with the data, nothing to see, carry on. Sir Bruce's letter also drew

:42:52.:42:56.

attention to the difference between NHS performance in England and in

:42:57.:43:00.

Wales. Almost half of all Welsh patient wait longer than six weeks

:43:01.:43:07.

for an MRI scan. In England fewer than 1% do. More than 10% of recent

:43:08.:43:13.

Welsh Accident and Emergency patients were kept waiting for

:43:14.:43:18.

longer than four hours, in England the equivalent number was under 5%.

:43:19.:43:23.

The NHS in England is very different to the NHS in Wales. Where as

:43:24.:43:27.

England has tried to drive up performance by using private

:43:28.:43:32.

providers, lots of data and lots of targets, Wales has largely kept to a

:43:33.:43:36.

rather old fashioned centralised form of management. The real

:43:37.:43:39.

question is whether that's now going to have to change? For today

:43:40.:43:46.

ministers are fending off Sir Bruce's critque. They say that they

:43:47.:43:51.

do not believe an inquiry is necessary. But others disagree. I

:43:52.:43:59.

hope and I pray that they will do something and they will look into

:44:00.:44:03.

it, because I can't get Noah back, my husband and I will have to one

:44:04.:44:08.

day explain to our son why his Big Brother isn't here. We have to live

:44:09.:44:13.

with that and the people that have lost their loved ones also they

:44:14.:44:23.

can't get them back. But it kind of takes away any positive meaning that

:44:24.:44:27.

comes from our loss, if they aren't even willing to look into it and

:44:28.:44:31.

make changes and to call it unnecessary. It is just a slap in

:44:32.:44:38.

the face as far as I'm concerned. With us tonight from Cardiff is the

:44:39.:44:42.

Welsh Health Minister Mark Drakeford. Thank you very much for

:44:43.:44:45.

joining us. Firstly, just to be clear, when your health service gets

:44:46.:44:50.

an e-mail from Sir Bruce Keogh, that's something worth paying

:44:51.:44:53.

attention to isn't it? And it was, it received very clear attention and

:44:54.:44:58.

very proper attention too. So when he, the most senior doctor in NHS

:44:59.:45:04.

England says six of your hospitals ought to be investigated, why on

:45:05.:45:07.

earth would you not launch an investigation? Well that is

:45:08.:45:10.

absolutely not what he said. And your report has very badly

:45:11.:45:15.

misrepresented Sir Bruce's e-mail, as well as being very badly

:45:16.:45:19.

factually flawed in a number of the assertions it has made. Mr Drakeford

:45:20.:45:24.

may I quote you the e-mail, and I quote directly, "I'm worried about

:45:25.:45:28.

the broader political implications of the data, there are six hospitals

:45:29.:45:34.

with a persistently high mortality which warrants investigating". He

:45:35.:45:38.

goes on to say he hasn't been able to do his own checks on the data.

:45:39.:45:42.

But he says "again it would seem sensible to investigate". On whose

:45:43.:45:48.

planet is it not worth at least taking a second look at this? Not on

:45:49.:45:54.

our planet, certainly, because we do take a second look. You are

:45:55.:45:58.

absolutely wrong to assert that we did not. Had you gone on and read

:45:59.:46:02.

the rest of that e-mail you would have found Sir Bruce saying that he

:46:03.:46:06.

didn't have data to validate, he didn't have data that bore out the

:46:07.:46:11.

data that had been passed to him. He was giving it to us to say it's

:46:12.:46:16.

worth investigating. We did. We published our mortality data every

:46:17.:46:21.

quarter, it showed the mortality rates in Welsh hospitals have

:46:22.:46:25.

improved quarter on quarter. Is Sir Bruce happy now with what is

:46:26.:46:29.

happening. He says clearly in this e-mail, despite the fact he has bent

:46:30.:46:34.

been able to check the -- he hasn't been able to check the data it

:46:35.:46:37.

warrants investigation. It seems sensible to investigate. Are you

:46:38.:46:41.

saying he was wrong and is he happy now? I think I have explained to you

:46:42.:46:44.

three times that we have investigated the data, and data is

:46:45.:46:48.

published for everyone to see. It is published every three months. Is Sir

:46:49.:46:53.

Bruce satisfied then? It is not for Sir Bruce to be satisfied or

:46:54.:46:56.

otherwise. Sir Bruce has no part to play in the Welsh NHS. Nor was he

:46:57.:47:01.

claiming to have one. He wasn't claiming it was up to him, but you

:47:02.:47:04.

established it was worth paying attention to what he has to say. He

:47:05.:47:10.

very properly passed on information that had been passed to him, saying

:47:11.:47:13.

to us that he thought we ought to look at it. We did exactly that. So

:47:14.:47:18.

you have concluded after what you are saying was an investigation,

:47:19.:47:21.

even though you apparently have officially refused to have an

:47:22.:47:24.

investigation that there is absolutely categorically no problem

:47:25.:47:27.

here in your view. You are saying that on the record? You are mixing

:47:28.:47:30.

up several things, you are asking me to agree to an assertion of yours,

:47:31.:47:34.

which I certainly won't. I'm asking you to respond to the quote directly

:47:35.:47:42.

from Sir Bruce Keogh? You give me a chance and I will do that. I have

:47:43.:47:47.

become coldly furious of the constant misrepresentation of the

:47:48.:47:49.

condition of the health service in Wales. A misrepresentation that is

:47:50.:47:53.

deeply politically manipulated and driven. Here in Wales we take data

:47:54.:47:59.

very seriously. If we are passed data we investigate that data. We

:48:00.:48:04.

have done so in relation to mortality figures. They show quarter

:48:05.:48:09.

after quarter that mortality levels in Welsh hospitals have improved.

:48:10.:48:13.

Does that mean that everything is as it should be? Of course not. Does it

:48:14.:48:18.

mean there is not more we could do? Of course there is, but does it mean

:48:19.:48:23.

that there is some deep crisis in the Welsh NHS? Absolutely certainly

:48:24.:48:34.

not. OK, well, Welsh Health Minister thank you for answering questions

:48:35.:48:36.

tonight. That is nearly all from us. As we showed you last night, David

:48:37.:48:40.

Bowie used the Brit Awards to channel a message to the people of

:48:41.:48:43.

Scotland, via Kate Moss. Imploring them not to leave the UK. So today

:48:44.:48:49.

Alex Salmond channelled some David Bowie into First Minister's

:48:50.:48:52.

questions. I'm sure the whole chamber will want to join me in

:48:53.:49:01.

congratulating eve Muirhead in winning the bronze medal in the

:49:02.:49:04.

winter Olympics. That is a demonstration that we all can be

:49:05.:49:11.

heros just for one day! How might the coolest rock unionist respond to

:49:12.:49:16.

that, only one to find out, ladies and gentlemen, Newsnight presents,

:49:17.:49:25.

Mr David Bowie. Or close enough. # It's a God awful small affair

:49:26.:49:33.

# But I want you to know I care # Major Tom is begging you know

:49:34.:49:42.

# And Ziggy doesn't you to go # Even though I am nowhere to be

:49:43.:49:48.

seen, # Us Because I live the American

:49:49.:49:52.

dream # They won't let you join the EU

:49:53.:49:57.

# There will be no pound in Aberdeen # Cameron might be a saddening bore

:49:58.:50:07.

# You but he's no Salmond # If we switch we will be like fools

:50:08.:50:14.

# I ask you to stay with a Scotland # Stick with us I urge you

:50:15.:50:21.

# Oh man I just don't want you to go # Better together you know

:50:22.:50:28.

# Please don't take Andy Murray # He's just as much our guy

:50:29.:50:35.

# Scotland wonder if you'll ever know

:50:36.:50:41.

# You're in a best-selling show # Don't put Fife on Mars

:50:42.:50:51.

Good evening, after a chilly night and maybe even a touch of frost in

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place, Friday is going to be a bright day for most of us with

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occasional showers and they will be heavy, hail and thunder as

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