01/04/2014 Newsnight


In-depth analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. Ebola, Help to Buy, Hillsborough, UKIP in power, and the Bloom Twins perform live. With Jeremy Paxman.

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Mysterious, deadly and terrifying. What is the Ebole virus? The current


outbreak is suspected of killing at least 87 people in Africa in the


most horrific way imaginable. How did it happen?


The virus is its worst enemy because it is a virulent virus. It kills


people soon after infection and doesn't really have a chance to


transmit from person to person. And this... Dream of owning a home,


but need a little help? Introducing Help to Buy a new Government scheme


for people like you. Help to Buy celebrates its first


birthday with a dangerously overheating housing market. We'll


ask the Housing Minister if he is relaxed about that.


What do UKIP councillors do for their day jobs? In the corner of the


Fens that will be forever England, we discover what happens when UKIP


gets a whiff of power. And from Ukraine, performers and


protestors, the Bloom Twins. # You can fool some people sometimes


# You can fool all the people all the time #


Don't shake hands. Don't kiss and definitely don't have sex. The


public health advice in one of the countries affected is strict.


Understandably, for the outbreak of Ebola virus infections in West


Africa is the stuff of horror movies. No one knows quite how it


first strikes, but it seems to come from out of the jungle and may be


related to eating bushmeat. There is no known cure and a high proportion


of victims die terrible deaths as blood pours from their veins and


then from their bowels and bladders, mouths and noses. Some cry blood.


All are in great pain. Suspected cases have been found in Sierra


Leone and Liberia, but the majority including 83 deaths in the current


outbreak have been concentrated in poverty-stricken, thug-infested


Guinea. Jim Reed reports. This simple is one of the most


deadly. Discovered the Ebola virus can kill nine out of ten of those


unlucky enough to catch it. And for the first time, it has been found in


the West African nation of Guinea. Dozens of staff from Medecins Sans


Frontieres are now on the ground trying to contain this outbreak. The


medical charity is calling it unprecedented in scale.


What is really worrying doctors is the spread in this case. Normally


contained in remote villages, it has moved into larger towns. 55 have


died and 11 people have been infected in the port and capital.


There are seven suspected cases in neighbouring Liberia and health


authorities fear it may have spread to Sierra Leone to the south,


Senegal has closed its land border to all traffic. When Ebola hits it


is in an isolated village and this is good and bad. For the people


there, this means almost certain death because there is little chance


that any medical care can get in there, but it has, it contains the


virus to some extent. In the urban areas of Guinea, we are talking


about the one capital city, probably a quart of the people in the country


live there and they live in den site. Ten meters there would be


someone else in the capital. It is easy to be in close contact and we


need close contact to transmit the viruses. Ebola was identified in


1976 in a remote part. The virus is common in bats, antelopes and


monkeys. It may have spread to human with close contact with animals,


probably through the bushmeat trade. When someone is infected, they stand


little chance of survival. After a week-long incubation period, there


are flu-like symptoms and vomiting and diarrhoea and internal bleeding.


When humans are infected they become very sick and many times they die


and they transmit it maybe to a family member too, but the family


stays away. They know that something is wrong and tran mission stops --


transmission stops. When a virus gets into a hospital setting, and


practises are not as they should be when needles are not sterilised


properly and when health workers are careless, it can spread to health


workers and to other patients and from those patients and health


workers out to family members and into the community. So hospitals


really amplify the transmission of this virus in a setting where


practises are not what they should be. This Ebola virus is emerging


from a cell. This disease is so deadly that scientists describe it


as its own worst enemy, killing infected patients before it can be


passed on. There is no cure. And no working vaccine. Right now, though,


the main thing that's stopping a vaccine or more development is it is


economic. These outbreaks are happening in a part of the world


where there is not a lot of money and there isn't a bit


pharmaceuticals and it mate cost hundreds of -- may cost hundreds of


millions of pounds to develop a vaccine, who is going to spend that


money and how are they going to get it back? It is something that not


one company, but the world needs to tackle in one go. The World Health


Organization said today it is too early to call this an epidemic and


the main area of infection remains localised. In Guinea, buckets of


disinfectant stand outside family homes and airlines have cancelled


flights. For millions, in parts of West Africa, the fear of this


individual suss is as -- virus is as contagious as the illness itself.


With me are Paul Goa Zoumanigui, Guinea's ambassador to the UK,


Professor Jeremy Farrar, Director of the Wellcome Trust and one of the


world's leading figures in the field of infectious diseases and in


Brussels is Meinie Nicolai, President of Medecins Sans


Frontieres in Belgium. Her team are in Guinea trying to contain the


epidemic. Jeremy Farrar, what is it that's so uniquely frightening about


this particular virus? Well, it started off in 1976 in


Sudan and since there has been 2200 cases across Africa of which 200


people died. The infection rate is high and that's frightening and it


spreads between families. It spreads as we have heard, it is amplified in


hospitals. It is difficult to control and it is an incredibly


nasty, infection with a high mortality.


Ambassador, why has it been difficult for your Government to get


on top this outbreak? Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me for


this. Thank you for coming. I would say that it is difficult because we


have not experienced deaths. This is the first time deaths are occurring


in Guinea and we needed assistance from partners. So far that has been


done by partners, WHO, Medecins Sans Frontieres, UNICEF and so on and the


Red Cross, of course. The Government is doing all its up most to overcome


the crisis and through the cord nation with the international --


co-ordination with the international community and through local means


too. Let's speak to Meinie Nicolai now.


What can you offer a patient? We heard this is a very, very dangerous


virus. What can you offer somebody who is already ill with the virus?


Yes, what we do, we care for the patient. So there is no cure for the


moment. So we don't have medication that will kill this virus. What will


happen in communities, people are so afraid of it that they may even


abandon people who have the disease. So what we do, we take care of the


person. We isolate him or her from other patients in a hospital setting


we make a separate unit and then we try to comfort the patient, treat


the symptoms, the fever, the pain, rehigh drayed and we should not --


rehydrate and we should not forget, not all die. Some will survive and


we give psychological support because when you know you have this


disease, you are conscious about it and you know you may well die. So we


try to help the patient in dignity, but it is very difficult. Is it


easy, it is dangerous for the doctors and nurses, of course, as


well, isn't it? Is it hard to get people to go to treat to patients in


this condition? Well, strangely enough we always


attract people to who are willing to lead with us, we don't have


difficulties to find people. You are right, it is dangerous for the


people we send out. So what we do, we train them here in Brussels


before they leave. We have built up a large experience as the ambassador


said, it is the first time it comes to Guinea, MSF treated in ten cases


or more. So we have built up an expertise, we have trained the


people beforehand. We give them protective material and what you


need is discipline. You need to be disciplined to follow the procedures


from A to Z before you enter the room where the patient is when you


leave, what you do with the material, how you approach him,


extra. We -- etcetera, we train the people and we have good


collaboration with the Ministry of Health in Gaza Stripy. We train the


-- in Guinea. We train the staff to protect themselves. Professor Jeremy


Farrar, one can understand it is terrifying when you hear it like


that. But what do we know about where it comes from? It probably


comes from an animal reservoir. These are sporadic cases. We don't


see cases for many years and there is huge outbreaks as now in Guinea.


Probably fruit bats and primates within the forests of Africa and it


spills over. It is another of these examples of these an man -- animal


infection, we have seen it with bird flu. It is the link between humans


and animals and changing ecology, changing the way people live and the


viruses can jump across. Do you think it can be controlled


this outbreak? MSF have done over decades now, huge experience in


controlling outbreaks and you will be able to control this outbreak.


The mortality is very high. That doesn't help the virus go from one


person to another and it is tragic for the individuals, but it does


lead to the epidemic being controlled. It will ultimately be


controlled, but one of the features of this epidemic is the geographical


spread that we are seeing. We are seeing it more broadly than we have


seen before and we have cross-border of people and the migration of


people, movement of people is really important.


Why haven't you closed the borders, ambassador? I beg your pordon. --


pardon. Why haven't you closed your borders? We haven't closed the


border and we rely on WHO there have not been any warnings for WHO for


closing any border. Of course, we are working with our neighbouring


countries and it has been raised in a meeting. It was the meeting of the


Council of Ministers on peace and security to see how to tackle this


disease and it was agreed that the entire community should work


together to tackle these diseases. I think there is no need for the time


being for the closing of the border. You are nodding in agreement, are


you professor? I would. Firstly, the borders are not that strictly, they


are very leaky. So closing officially borders, the informal


travelling cross borders would happen anyway. Closing borders in


infectious diseases gives you a false sense of security, I think.


From what we have heard about the way that the teams from Medecins


Sans Frontieres for example go about dealing with an outbreak like this,


it seems to suggest that it isn't really a risk in a different kind of


society, in a more advanced society, a more wealthy society where for


example hygiene practises are better in hospitals?


Sure. Infection control is crucial to stopping this epidemic, but I


think it would be wrong to suggest that this is just a disease and


others of a similar nature are problems of resource limited


countries. Let's look at other infections that come across from


animals. It is an infection that jumps species, isn't it? HIV jumps


from species and look what happened to IVF. This will be controlled


probably eventually by the local ministries of health and MSF, but it


is part of a wider context and that's the emergence of new viruses


and their ability to cross from animals and because of trade the


ability to travel between countries. Do you think that's a risk? As we


saw with is as, these infections will travel across borders. I don't


think it will be right to say this is a problem for Guinea. These are


global problems. Meinie Nicolai, I bet you would give your eyeteeth for


a vaccine wouldn't you? Of course. It would be fantastic. It is


difficult for our teams to work with the patients knowing that a lot of


them will die. We continue to do it, because dignity, caring for people


is very important, even if you know they will die. That remains as a


human aspect important in our work. And then to contain the epidemic. As


long as we don't have a vaccine or a real treatment, what we then do is


tracing the contacts of the patients. We have teams, outreach


teams, as soon as we have one patient we will go to his or her


village, see who were the family members, the neighbours and so on.


See if they develop fever. Follow them for at least three three weeks


and try to spot where new cases could happen, isolate them, care for


them. Hopefully they will cure, but the cure has to come from themselves


surviving the virus. In that sense, investing in hygiene measure


inspection the hospitals and the health centres in this case in


Guinea. That will be the measures we take. Safe funeral practices are


also important. Thank you very much all indeed.


Do you know what day it was today? It was the first anniversary of the


introduction of the Help to Buy scheme, the arrangement under which


the Government lends people money to buy houses or flats they otherwise


couldn't afford. It's undoubtedly been good news for some people. But,


bigger picture, as anyone who's tried to buy a new home in the last


year knows, many parts of this country are in the grip of such


surging house price inflation that people despair of ever affording to


own the roof over their heads. What's the connection between these


facts? Andy Verity reports. This is what Help to Buy was


supposed to do wasn't it? For families that can't raise a big


enough deposit homes no longer out of reach, even in Surrey. Demand for


homes in Godalming is so high that buyers buy before the house is


finished and move in before their street. After renting for 14 years,


this speech therapist can afford a three-bed house worth nearly


?500,000. Our daughter's just come along. You've got the extra costs of


childcare and things like that. It's been such a help so that we could


get into our own home, so Isla can have her own garden, her own room,


because she was in our room. With help from her mum and dad, Kate,


whose husband works for a hedge fund, can muster a ?25,000 deposit.


What would you say if I told you I would buy a fifth of it for you and


I wouldn't need any money back for five years? And even after that I


would only charge you 1. 75% above base rate? You would think I was


crazy. You wouldn't think I was giving awe loan on commercial terms,


but that's why we the taxpayer are doing for those taking up Help to


Buy. Analysis by Home Track shows what the first stage of Help to Buy,


the equity long, does to your buying power. Without Help to Buy a


household income of ?44,500 would buy you a home forth ?192,000. With


Help to Buy on the same income you could afford a new home of ?225,000,


the average price, so Help to Buy boosts your purchasing power by the


difference again of 17%. But since Help to Buy started, house prices


nationally have risen by between 8-9%, so half the gain from Help to


Buy has been wiped out. Another year like that and all that taxpayer help


for new homes won't have made them more affordable. It has helped a few


individuals, but that's more illusory, because it has helped them


buy a house that's more expensive than it would have been. It is


17,000 home homes now occupied because of Help to Buy. There's 9


million people in the private rent rented sector who want to buy.


There's people struggling to pay their rent, eat and heat their


homes. Help to Buy isn't going to buy votes. God al al-Ming --


Godalming. At this site three quarters of the homes sold were with


Help to Buy, but nationally only a fifth were. What's clear is the


supply of new homes isn't rising fast enough to keep up with the


number of new homes stimulated by Help to Buy. As long as demand


outstrip outstrips supply it will make them less affordable, not more.


Prices have been going up sharply across the country, 9-9%. That's an


indication that demand is rising faster than supply. Demand is


stimulated by low interest rates. Last year the number of new homes


went up by a third but it is far fewer than were built in the boom


and half what we need to meet demand. It is good growth and the


developers have responded well, but shortage of manpower and skilled


labour and building materials haven't helped. And, of course, the


biggest frustration is planning permissions. An economist will tell


you if demand for homes is outstripping supply and you don't


want prices to rise, you've got to curb demand, not stoke it. The worry


is that these policies have become self defeating and that because


there's so much demand in the housing market, prices are rising


much faster than income tax and taking housing out of the reach of


first-time buyers soft. All the schemes that are there to help are


being undone by the increases in house prices. It is the sort of fact


we are used to but maybe shouldn't be, that prices are now rising four


times faster than income tax. At that rate even the largesse of


taxpayers willing to buy a fifth of someone else's home won't stop more


families being priced out. The Housing Minister, Kris Hopkins, is


here. Are rising house price as good thing? They are certainly part of


the market and I want to correct some of the figures that were in


your VT there. First of all, house prices have gone up. At the end of


January 6. 8%, not 8-9%. If you take London and the South East out of,


that about 3. 8%, so the figures you've got there are slightly


distorted. In fact they are twice as much... But they are still rising


though. Sure. And that's a good thing? First of all you have got to


say where were we in 2008-2010? We are nowhere near those prices. So it


is a good thing? I think so. So you do think rising house prices are a


good thing? I've bought a house and I expect the value to rise and I am


sure you do as well. Would you like more new houses to be built?


Absolutely. The key thing about Help to Buy... You could just decree it.


I think I want to see more houses being built, and we are seeing more


houses being built. In London a 26-year high. Some of the figures


you chose in that package, there and you talked about very wealthy


individuals using Help to Buy, but the average house price on Help to


Buy, on the guarantee scheme, is ?145,000. That's on the equity


scheme only ?83,000, which is well below the average house price in


this country. You say you would like to see more houses being built. Yep.


And at the same time you are stoking demand? Well, we are not, because


the other aspect to this, if you look at Morgan Stanley's research,


fourth quarter on house sales, 0. 5% of those transactions with Help to


Buy, so 0. 5% of all the transactions that were undertaken in


the fourth quarter were associated with Help to Buy. What Help to Buy's


done is actually bought real houses out of the ground, 17,000 houses. 9%


of those are first-time buyers -- 89% of those are first-time buyers.


We are woefully short in supply. I agree with you. And you can see you


are stoking demand. The consequence of that is rising prices isn't it? I


don't agree we are stoking prices. But I agree we need more houses.


Well why not do something about it? Help to Buy is doing that. This


project is not just about homes but the jobs that come with it. 250,000


jobs were wiped out of the construction industry. At the


moment, 28,000 depoz vets been put on these houses. 17,000 houses have


been bit. Every house is a job. 1,200 small and medium-sized


businesses supported is. How many houses do you think we should be


building per year? I don't want to put a figure on that. There was a


figure put on it ten years ago wasn't there? I've been in the job


since October last year. I've seen a range of figures from 200,000 to


260,000. What I do know is there's a huge demand out there and we need to


match that. Your lower figure there was 200,000. Yes. How many actually


are being built each year? About 120,000 at the moment. That's going


up all the -- all the time. The key thing is making sure that affordable


houses are being built, whether it is making sure we've got a planning


system that supports the building of houses. That's really important.


We've put 19. 5 billion pounds public and private money into making


sure affordable houses and 170,000 houses coming out. Ebbsfleet in


London, 69,000 houses on some of these large sites. Government is


focused on making sure this works. An important part of the economy. A


huge part of the construction industry overall, and making sure


that supply meets that demand is something we are absolutely summited


-- committed to do. Thank you. Pleasure.


The details of the most terrible catastrophe to occur at a British


sports ground were laid out today - just as vivid and and as troubling


as they've been on the many previous occasions on which attempts have


been made to understand how 96 people could be killed at a football


match. We're a fortnight away now from the 25th anniversary of the


tragedy, and the previous inquest verdicts of accidental death have


been overturned. The new inquest, being held in Warrington, is to be a


thorough re-examination. Peter Marshall was there. It will be the


longest inquest in British legal history. The jury was told today


after being sworn in, there are seven women and four men on the


jury. They were told by the coroner that it is not a criminal


prosecution, because an investigation is still going on in


parallel. They have to decide, their job is to decide how, where and when


individuals died, and whether opportunity were missed to save


lives. He said to them, he advised them on law but it was their


decisions that counted in tend. They had to reach their own conclusion on


the evidence they would hear. This would include what he called


harrowing accounts of the people that survived and moving accounts of


the bereaved. From a Victorian football stadium in Sheffield to a


brand-new purpose-built Coroner's Court in a Warrington business park.


It has taken 25 years but in the words of the coroner, Lord Justice


Goldring, the Hillsborough disaster seared into the memories of so many.


The original verdicts, accidental death, were quashed in 2012. Coroner


said this jury shouldn't be concerned with any of that. They


will consider the experiences of each of the 96. In terms of scale,


scope and nature, this is a test of the legal system and it is setting


precedents. A long-term campaigner would like what's happening here to


become a model for inquest law. We have a jury at this inquest which I


really think validates the process for both families and public


confidence that this important inconfess will be subjected to


independent scrutininy. You would rather there were more juries at


inquests? They can play an extraordinary important role,


particularly where there are worries of failing of state systems. She


noted the London bombings inquest had no secure are you but it will


set a press department repeated in Warrington. The bereaved give the


jury biographies of those they've lost. Arthur Horrocks was 4 3, his


son Jamie was nine. We get to told the court who my dad Warix what he -


what his prospects were, what he's missed out on in the past 25 years.


And you as a family as well? Most definitely. So you think that's a


good point about these inquests is it? Huge. James Aspinall was just


18. His mum, Margaret, said she would be too emotional to tell the


jury about James, so his brother, David, will do it. We shared the


same bedroom. We were very, very close. What are you going to say?


Well, I've got to give a character verdict of our James basically, some


of the fun ownership times we had, some of the bad times we had.


Anything to get his character across. Today the coroner began


outlining the case. He said the Chief Superintendent David


Duckenfield had only been put in charge less than three weeks before


the disaster. His speciality wasn't public order and he had never worked


at the stadium. Whether that was a sensible decision may be something


for you to consider. Describing how a terrible crushed developed in two


pens holding Liverpool fans, he said:


No one kept check on how many fans were going into the central stands.


There were some suggestion that the authorities were forewarned?


Liverpool fans on Leppings Lane, some of them reported they were


involved in a crush there. There was a crush on Leppings Lane at the


time. Yet the authorities thought that the operation was successful


and later modelled their plan for 1989 on the 1988 tie. And there were


comments about how some of the bereaved were treated? The jury were


told of the agonising process for relatives in the Hillsborough gym


where they were shown photos of all the dead and asked to pick out their


children or their brothers or sisters or their parents out of


that. They were denied the chance of holding or touching the bodies. Some


were asked about their loved one's alcohol consumption which left them


angry to this day. Half had no blood alcohol detected and others were


consistent with moderate social drinking.


Peter, thank you. Round two of the exhibition match


between the Deputy Prime Minister and the leader of the United Kingdom


Independence Party tomorrow night. Doubtless, Nigel Farage has been


practising his lines in the lounge bar of the Dog and Ferret tonight.


Whether he'll be repeating his declared admiration for Mr Putin


we'll see tomorrow. He can certainly take comfort from some recent polls.


But what is his fanbase. Who will vote UKIP? Emily Maitlis has been


trying to find out. Spring is in the air in


Cambridgeshire. And the marigolds are out.


There can't be many men who wear rubber gloves and a pinstriped suit


to clean a public loo, but Pete does, he is the local UKIP


councillor and he tells me he is here cleaning every day. I intend to


keep on carrying that public toilet. I love doing it for the community.


It is something where you can see people appreciate what you are doing


and we are keeping tax down for the local community and our hometown and


that's worth doing. For as long as I'm able to, I will keep cleaning


the public toilets here. If I become an MP I will continue to do it.


Peter and his partner, Lisa are seen as a power couple. She was UKIP's


first mayor. People will see me for who I am and UKIP is more than the


old man down the pub. Maybe 10 or 15 years ago, we were a party of older


men in playsers and white hair. -- blazers and white hair. That's


clearly not us. The couple are recognised wherever they go. Yes,


because they have put Ramsey on the map, haven't they? What do you think


of UKIP? Well, I'm going to vote for them this time. Who did you vote for


last time? Labour, but I think they have lost their way a little bit.


Joanne is a Ramsey resident and she is if you will forgive the tone,


part of a new UKIP demographic, not a disenchanted well off Tory man,


but a Labour voting retired woman. And it is this demographic that can


propel UKIP into a wider power base than they have had in the past. The


voters are the left behinds, they are financially disadvantaged and


pessimistic, they are low ka educated and very concentrated in


deprived areas, often Labour areas not just Conservative areas and they


are anxious over domestic issues like immigration and as they see t


the unresponsiveness of our politicians in Westminster.


Ramsey made living history in 2011 by becoming the first town in the UK


to be controlled by UKIP. Since then, they have had two UKIP mayors.


They like to think of this town as proof they can run things, not just


protest! Perhaps that's why out in the


battlebus you will barely hear them mention Europe or immigration. Here


it is kept local. Out canvassing with Ramsey's current


mayor, business is slow. The first three houses don't answer the door.


At the fourth, the resident explains rather graphically what he would do


with a UKIP poster. Perhaps he doesn't realise Pete


cleans toilets in his spare time anyway. At the next few houses, they


strike gold. They tell me the town turns purple at election time and it


is not just the more keting material that debts -- marketing material


that gets everywhere. There is something on the present about UKIP


in Ramsey, they clean the loos and patrol the streets and issue


on-the-spot fines to vandals at chucking out time on a Friday night.


It adds up to an old-fashioned sense of the village bobby on the beat.


There is a paternalistic hand on your shoulder wherever you turn and


some locals find this rather troubling. They are good and clever


at driving around in their big purple and yellow bus. He cleaned


out the toilets which removed a job from somebody who was doing that. He


played on the immigration, hasn't he in a big way? It has frightened the


mainly major parties. Whatever the strategy, it seems to have been


vindicated so far at the polls. UKIP's hands on grass-roots helped


the party the elections. It gained 139 extra councillors. Its success


lost the Conservatives control of councils in Cambridgeshire, Norfolk


and Lincolnshire. In the 2009 European elections, UKIP more than


doubled its share of the vote to 16%, this time the party says the


sky is the limit. If UKIP top the polls in the


European elections next month, it will be the first time that any


party other than Labour or the Conservatives have won a nationwide


election since the First World War. It is the wind of odd statistic that


pollsters are having to grapple with. Something that seemed


inconceivable four years ago, and doesn't seem so unlikely anymore.


The big decision for the party will be one of power versus protest, can


they govern and seem like the radical alternative to the status


quo? We don't intend to be a polished political party. We are a


bunch of amateurs with ordinary jobs and lives who are getting involved


in politics because they are sick of politicians.


How does the party sick of politicians hit the big time come


2015? The east of England maybe responding to UKIP's overtures at a


local level, the party claims they can get 20 MPs at a general


election, even with a bus this big, that could be a whole new battle.


Well, Suzanne Evans is a UKIP councillor in South London who


defected from the Conservatives in 2013. John Harris is a journalist


who has written extensively about UKIP. You spend a lot of time with


these guys? I have been to Ramsey twice. Not just Ramsey, but other


places where UKIP are on the march. What are they like UKIP supporters?


The film gave a good flavour of why they choose to vote the way they do.


They feel very sort of, cut off. I have a pet theory which was sparked


by UKIP's success, there is a north/south divide in England, but


there is an east/west divide and Eastern England feels very, very


isolated and by the time you get to the coast, London feels a long way


away and people complain there are holes in the road and there aren't


many jobs and opportunities and no one licence to them and in addition


-- listens to them and because the regional economy is based around


agriculture, with the tourist industry towards the coast, they are


both parts of the economy which use migrant labour at low rates often,


local people under cut. They don't feel politicians are listening and


you have this powder keg really and along come UKIP saying immigration,


immigration, immigration to para face Tony Blair -- para phrase Tony


Blair and people like the sound of it. Why did you join? I say the


Conservative Party left me rather than I left the Conservative Party.


I think coming up to the 2010 general election there was a feeling


that the Conservatives were going to make a difference. They were going


to make a difference on immigration. They were going to make a


difference, this whole talk of this huge Reform Bill sweeping away the


bureaucracy that the Labour Government brought in and it didn't


happen. There was a lack of compassion. I like to think of


myself as a compassionate person. The way the Conservatives were


operating, I didn't want to be part of it anymore. I looked at what UKIP


had to offer. I spoke personally to Nigel Farage. He joined. I don't


regret it for a moment. You went out of disillusion more


than out of policy? I think the initial impetus was true, yeah,


that's right, Jeremy, it was disillusion, but did look at the


policies carefully and discussed them in great detail and I was


impressed by what I saw and it tuned with my values and as you saw in the


report there, it tunes very much with the values of the people that


John was talking about, the people that feel dispossessed, the people


fed-up with the politicians operating in the Westminster bubble


and they want something different. He is not on the same side of the


fence as you. What's your sense of whether people are interested in


policies or acting out of disillusion? At this point in time,


UKIP doesn't have many policies, it doesn't have a policy platform which


is convenient because people project on to it whatever they want. A lot


of people at the top of UKIP, Nigel Farage are free-market eeres which


haven't got much to say, it doesn't matter. The point is that, UKIP is a


cult of personality around a fantastically charismatic man who


embodies a difference in the political class we have ended up


with. I don't think that's true. We have huge amount of policies and


after the European elections... After you are standing in an


election... We are talk being the general election here, aren't we?


What other political parties have put their manifesto on the table


yet? UKIP is no different. Our policies are being costed out. We


don't want to make promises we can't and we will have policies coming


forward. If someone says to you in a town like Boston in Lincolnshire


where they are exercised about the fact that so-called flexible labour


markets resulted in local people seeing the going rate for cutting


cauliflower and cabbages come down. You can have a free-market policy,


what have you got to say about that? If you go to those places the Polish


community that came in before are worried about the impact of Romanian


and Bulgarian immigration... You have not answered the question. What


have you got to say about the doub down sides which is a huge issue in


the places we are talking about? If we left the European Union we


wouldn't have such a pressure on labour markets. We have not nearly


one million young people unemployed because jobs are being taken away


for people. They can't get that initial foot on the job ladder. Is


this really about leaving the European Union? Is it something to


do with immigration? It is about both because you can't divorce the


two, can you? When you are in the European Union, we have an open door


policy and you cannot divorce the two. People say that 70% of the


people in this country now, whether they support UKIP or not, are deeply


concerned about the impact of immigration and that's not something


any politician can afford to ignore and the three old parties ignored it


for too long. You are agreeing? I am a journalist. I am on the left of


politics and no question that the matter of immigration is hugely


important in all this and the political classes have yet to come


up with any satisfactory answers. Thank you very much.


The Guardian has news that the Conservatives are planning to have


an attack on windfarms in their manifesto for the elections next


year. The Daily Mail has a story about immigration, illegal migrants


trying to get on to the back of lorries at Calais. The Times, our


weather forecasts are going to get better because of some breakthrough


in the world of me ter rolling. There is a four week wait to see


some GPs. The Daily Express has cottoned on to this mood our guests


were talking about, there is a new migrant flood on the way.


Well, that's not quite everything. Before we go, foreign ministers from


all over NATO announced the suspension of all practical civilian


and military co-operation with Russia. It would have been


surprising had they not. What's more they can or would do to get Russia


to back off from Ukraine is less than clear. The distinctive


character of this conflict is the extent to which it has elements both


international and civil. Even families have been split down the


middle. Have We're going to be played out in a moment by two


Ukrainian twins, Sonya and Anna Kupriienko who perform as the Bloom


Twins. Just before that, let's have a word. Who is who?


Doesn't matter! All right. Why is it when we look at


your country from outside, a lot of Ukrainians are like Putin, aren't


they? Yes, that's right. Is your family split? No. Not quite. If we


are talking about grandparents and our parents, there is a friction


between them. Our grandparents live in Moscow and our parents live in


Kiev. So there is friction about that. You hear different stories and


no one knows the real one. Don't get me wrong, we are not into politics


so we're just guessing here. Hang on. The premise you are here is


you do have political commitments and you care about what happens in


your country? We care about that, but we cannot know like a proper


story about it because no one tells the proper story.


We know from our prospective because we see what our family told us, what


my family told me, what our grandparents told me and what I can


see from different media channels. It is so dimp. I can't -- different.


I can't know perfectly well because it is different. You are sensible.


You don't care too much about politics. Many young people... I


care about my country. That's what I was going to get to.


Most societies young people have other concerns other than politics.


Before that I wasn't into politics at all. Right now, I do care about


what is happening right now with my family, with people in Ukraine, with


Ukraine, but again, I just don't know what is going on, but the only


thing that I would like to change, I don't get the thing that Russia and


Ukraine are split. I would like them like brothers and sisters. We are


similar, but different. They don't need to argue, they just


need to be together. They just need to care about each other like we


sometimes do. We are going to let Sonia and Anna


get plugged into their instruments. And they are going to perform their


cover of Bob Marley's protest song Get Up Stand Up which they say they


chose against Viktor Yanukovych's


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