09/04/2014 Newsnight


09/04/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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It's nearly three decades since he died in dreadful circumstances and

:00:00.:00:10.

today the latest attempt to convict someone for his murder failed. Is it

:00:11.:00:15.

now possible that no-one will ever be convicted for the very public

:00:16.:00:20.

atrocity of the killing of PC Keith Blakelock. The Culture Secretary

:00:21.:00:25.

resigned, she said, so as not to get in the way of Government business,

:00:26.:00:30.

but is there a much bigger problem with the way the public sees the

:00:31.:00:34.

whole political class? Can I ask you a quick question, what's the first

:00:35.:00:38.

thing you think of when you hear the word "politician"? Crook! I do not

:00:39.:00:46.

fear for my safety, I know they will kill me. I'm a true Muslim, I

:00:47.:00:50.

believe my life and death is in the hands of Allah. That was four months

:00:51.:00:57.

ago, and now he's dead. Are the Kenyan anti-terrorist police out of

:00:58.:01:09.

control? So yet again the prosecuting authorities have failed

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to get anyone convicted for one of the most notorious murders of the

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last half century. Nearly 30 years after the event and despite the

:01:18.:01:20.

presence of numerous witness, no-one has been brought to justice for the

:01:21.:01:26.

murder of PC Keith Blakelock. The only convictions in the case were

:01:27.:01:30.

quashed years ago, so long after the night, when a middle-aged police

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constable, originally from Sunderland, was sent without riot

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training or stab vest to a disturbance in Tottenham, the case

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remains open. And they

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They were all cheering and shouting Gladiatorial. They misread the anger

:01:54.:02:01.

of the community, and when it erupted they were incapable of

:02:02.:02:09.

dealing with it. Keith Blakelock's injuries were just horrific. I was

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trying to do mouth-to-mouth and heart massage and keeping doing.

:02:18.:02:23.

There is nothing that the police can do now it is time to say it is over.

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28 years, three inquiries, 200 arrests and still no reliable

:02:29.:02:32.

conviction. It now looks certain there will be no justice for what

:02:33.:02:38.

happened that night in 1985. Back then Broadwater Farm Estate in

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Tottenham was ablaze. Years of tension between the police and the

:02:42.:02:44.

young black community had boiled over. The trigger, the death from a

:02:45.:02:49.

heart attack of Cynthia Jarrett, as her home was searched after her

:02:50.:02:53.

son's arrest. The police have always denied shoving her to the floor,

:02:54.:02:58.

many on the estate thought they were lying. It started with rocks, then

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bottles, then petrol bomb, thrown from tower blocks to the north, fire

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engines were called as cars were set ablaze. Then smoke was spotted,

:03:07.:03:13.

coming from the first floor supermarket in Tangmere Block,

:03:14.:03:18.

firemen were sent up, protected by PC Keith Blakelock and three other

:03:19.:03:20.

police officers. It was like somebody had scored a goal at the

:03:21.:03:25.

football match, from deathly silence to the huge roar you get in a

:03:26.:03:28.

stadium when somebody has scored a goal. We started being bombarded by

:03:29.:03:33.

bottles and bricks and debris, all of a sudden just showering around

:03:34.:03:38.

us. There was a load of people just all running around with crash

:03:39.:03:42.

helmets on, scaraves over their face -- scarves over their face, all

:03:43.:03:47.

holding various weapons and the like. I thought it has come to us

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now. This is all kicking off. As the team came out of this stairwell,

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they were petted from behind by bottles and missiles. They ran

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through the dark which 28 years ago would have been a trip of grass to

:04:03.:04:06.

the police vans on the main road. It must have been about this spot that

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Keith Blakelock fell, he was surrounded. The attack lasted in

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second, before his colleagues could turn back and he could be dragged

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away. I turned around and he was completely gone from sight, covered

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with people. I managed to get hold of Keith Blakelock's police

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overcalls and started to pull him out from the crowd. Another police

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officer had joined us and was doing the same thing with the other side

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of his collar. I kept working on Keith, doing heart missage and

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mouth-to-mouth with him all the way into the nearest hospital. Which

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sadly not long after we arrived we got told that he had not survived.

:04:44.:04:49.

The day after the murder a huge investigation got under way, within

:04:50.:04:53.

weeks arrests were made and suspects were charged. But in the rush to

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convict serious mistakes were made, mistakes which would damage the

:04:58.:05:01.

reputation of the Metropolitan Police. Convinced there could be a

:05:02.:05:05.

second night of rioting an army of cleaners was sent in to scrub the

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secrets. Vital forensic evidence was lost. Then police started rounding

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up dozens then hundreds of local men, and holding them sometimes

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without legal representation. I cannot blame the police for one

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second, for one moment for wanting to do the honourable thing and to

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find those who were kill a police officer in such circumstances. I

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absolutely understand that. And the police will be hard on those people

:05:34.:05:39.

is absolutely understandable. You cannot criminalise and stereotype a

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whole entire community for what a few people did. Even at its maximum

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the police said there was 30 people around Blakelock's body, yet some

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how they were able to get over 200 and odd warrants in the name of

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murder to come and arrest people. In 1987 all that pressure finally led

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to a conviction, Winston Silcott was sentenced to life for t murder, but

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released along with two others when there were suggestions forensic

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scientists were tampered with. Then Keith Blakelock's widow gave a prime

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time TV interview and there was a new push. One of those held was 16

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at the time of the killing. Nicholas Jacob had already spent a decade in

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prison due to the riots. The police said they had 30 wins who is said

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they saw him attack Keith Blakelock with a blade. One was a drug dealer

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and the other received thousands of pounds in living expenses for

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helping the police. In court they were all allowed to use suit dough

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-- pseudonyms and distorted voice to protect their identities. Nicholas

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Jacob's supporters were outside every day to protest his innocence.

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It was the use of anonymous witnesses on the stand that to some

:07:08.:07:11.

was the single most concerning element of the trial. The use of

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anonymity is an absolute disgrace. I can understand victims staying

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anonymous from attackers, but in this case it is crazy, crazy because

:07:20.:07:25.

two of the three witnesses gave evidence against Nicholas Jacob in

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1985. We know their names, we know where they live and their families.

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So why are these two character, who gave evidence back then, didn't who

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didn't get troubled, why are they being given anonymity now, it is to

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create an impression on the jury that there are dangerous people out

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there who want justice not to be done. With no new forensics linking

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Jacob to the murder, the only other evidence is a rap rap people in

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which he boasted to chop the officer. It took the jury only six

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hours to find him not guilty on all charges. The investigative

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journalist David Rose has closely followed the murder investigation

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from the start. There was really I think very little prospect that any

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jury, properly instructed, could have brought in a guilty verdict,

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given the quality, the poor quality of the evidence against Nicholas

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Jacob. S. That evidence was fatally contaminated with mistakes not

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committed in 2014 or 2013, or in 1999 after the appeal, they were

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committed in 1985 within hours, the chain started, within hours of the

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murder of PC Blakelock, it is a tragedy and one that could have been

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avoided. Now the time has simply come to draw align under it and say

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enough. The family of Keith Blakelock said this evening they

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were disappointed by the verdict. The Metropolitan Police praised the

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patience and determination of his widow Elizabeth and said work to

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bring those responsible for the murder to justice will not stop

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tonight. With us Tony Mysels, Nicholas

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Jacobs' solicitor, and the vice chair of the Metropolitan Police

:09:13.:09:15.

Federation. This was a terrible waste of public money wasn't it? I

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don't think that is the case at all. At the end of the day we are

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desperate to find out how one of our colleagues was killed. And I believe

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that we should keep doing that until we find out. Because ultimately a

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police officer lost his life on mainland Britain and we don't know

:09:36.:09:38.

who did that. We want to know who did that. You would presumably

:09:39.:09:43.

understand that urge to find the killers wouldn't you? Of course we

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understand, obviously I understand that the police would want to find

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the killers of PC Blakelock and justice be done for the family.

:09:53.:09:56.

Justice should be done? Of course it should be, but this prosecution was

:09:57.:10:00.

flawed from the outside. As you have heard from the report tonight from.

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The outset in 1985, the investigation was used and these

:10:12.:10:14.

days we would feel the investigation was ridiculous. If the police hadn't

:10:15.:10:19.

made such a mess of the initial investigation, we wouldn't still be

:10:20.:10:22.

30 years on having court cases about it, would we? It is very easy to sit

:10:23.:10:34.

here and say. That we were aware of things that weren't correct and as

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it panned out, ultimately we are still trying to seek entirely the

:10:39.:10:42.

case and what happened. So therefore we are going to carry on trying to

:10:43.:10:46.

get justice for what took place. How long could this go on? Well I think

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it will go on until we have got everything that we need in relation

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to sealing a conviction. I personally would never like to stop

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trying to find out who killed PC Blakelock. What do you think? The

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evidence at the outset as far as we were concerned was simply not there.

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What about the question of how much longer these police investigations,

:11:12.:11:14.

I mean there has been squad working on this for decades now hasn't

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there? Yes. That's correct, as I understand it even in the middle of

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this case back in January there was still 14 officers working full-time

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on the case. 14 police officers? At the time, back in January this year.

:11:30.:11:35.

The resources obviously they were devoting to the case were

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extraordinary. This is because he was a policeman? Exactly, yes. But

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this should be the same for anyone who is murdered, you know, in this

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way. Precisely. I might suggest also this is probably the only unsolved

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murder of a police officer that I'm aware of in this country. This is

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perhaps why the police have pursued it with vigour. This was not a case

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which should have reached a trial at the Old Bailey. David Rose said in

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that piece of tape there that it was time just to draw a line under the

:12:06.:12:09.

whole thing? I would agree with him in that respect. Would you? We

:12:10.:12:14.

obviously know the first investigation resulted in the

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conviction of three men who were innocent. They spent four years in

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prison before being obviously having the convictions quashed by the Court

:12:22.:12:25.

of Appeal. We know two officers, two senior officers in the investigation

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were prosecuted for perverting the course of justice and that

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undermined the credibility of any subsequent investigations. Even the

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interviews that proconducted in the early 1990s during the inquiry by

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the omission of the CPS in this investigation they actually said

:12:43.:12:47.

that those interviews had been unorthodox by today's standards. You

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think they should just go on indefinitely? Absolutely. He

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represent the rank and file officers of the Metropolitan Police, I'm not

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going to sit there and say let's draw a line under it and let's all

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go home. I want us to continue endlessly until we find the person

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who murdered PC Blakelock. Who will take that decision? Ultimately I

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will consider it will be ACPO officers within the Metropolitan

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Police, I don't know at this stage. Senior police officers will decide

:13:17.:13:18.

whether this continues or not? I would think so. The interesting

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point is when we were first given the case papers and summary it

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appeared the decision to charge Mr Jacobs was authorised by Aston

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Saunders who is now in charge of the CPS. Then we were told later on it

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was not her that authorised the charge. Thank you very much, thank

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you. Last night if you happened to be watching you might have seen the

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undying protestations of loyalty and support for the Culture Secretary,

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Maria Miller, from the leader of the House of Commons, Andrew Lansley.

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Well he could have saved himself the trouble, before breakfast this

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morning she had resigned. Lots of warm words for her on a cold spit at

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the media and the appointment of another loyalist, Sajid Javid, to

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replace her. It's 8.00 on Wednesday the ninth April, the headlines this

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morning, Maria Miller has resigned as Culture Secretary. Saying the row

:14:19.:14:22.

about her expenses has become a distraction from the vital work of

:14:23.:14:31.

Government. MPs' expenses, the scandal that has been running since

:14:32.:14:38.

2009. I hoped that I could stay but it has become clear to me over the

:14:39.:14:43.

last few days that this has become an enormous distraction and it is

:14:44.:14:47.

not right that I'm distracting from the incredible achievements of this

:14:48.:14:52.

Government. This afternoon Labour sought to press David Cameron on why

:14:53.:14:57.

he hadn't fired her. He said six days ago she had done the right

:14:58.:15:00.

thing and we should leave it at that, does he now recognise this was

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a terrible error of judgment? This is a good and honest parliament with

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good and hard working people in it. That is the assumption that I start

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for and I make no apology for that. He just doesn't get it. That is what

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he has shown today. This is just the latest chapter in the expenses'

:15:20.:15:24.

saga. Since it started five years ago we have had an election, changed

:15:25.:15:30.

Governments, changed the MPs' expenses rule, and sent some of the

:15:31.:15:33.

worst offenders to prison. But it still rumbles on. The expenses'

:15:34.:15:39.

scandal has been going on so long that whole careers have been built

:15:40.:15:43.

on the back of it. Sajid Javid, the new Secretary of State for Culture

:15:44.:15:46.

was obviously appointed today on the back of Miss McMillan's resignation,

:15:47.:15:51.

but he got his seat as an MP in 2010 after his predecessor resigned over

:15:52.:15:55.

a similar issue. Her housing allowances. Still, at least he knew

:15:56.:16:18.

what he was letting himself in for. (No sound) And how the, the expenses

:16:19.:16:26.

scandal seemed to clarify what everyone suspected, that politicians

:16:27.:16:30.

are dismal creatures. Can I ask you a quick question, what is the first

:16:31.:16:34.

thing you think of when you hear the word "politician"? Crook. Expenses.

:16:35.:16:40.

Liar. When you heard the word "politician" what is the first word

:16:41.:16:45.

that comes to mind? Insincere. That is why when a pollster asked whether

:16:46.:16:49.

Miss McMillan should resign, a majority said yes, there was very

:16:50.:16:52.

little sympathy for her. But in truth there is no sympathy for

:16:53.:16:56.

anyone in politics. Voters always want them to resign, they are quite

:16:57.:17:03.

liking a few other senior politicians to quit too. Is this

:17:04.:17:07.

new? They are unpopular but to be honest they always are, we have only

:17:08.:17:11.

about 18% of the British public who say they trust them to tell the

:17:12.:17:14.

truth. The worst we have ever seen was a few years ago in two OK 009

:17:15.:17:21.

when it was 13%, it has hardly bounced back. The highest ever

:17:22.:17:25.

figure has been 22% believing they tell the truth. Over the last 30

:17:26.:17:29.

years it hasn't changed much at all. If we go further back to the 1940s,

:17:30.:17:34.

even then when a coalition Government, like now, was actually

:17:35.:17:38.

at war against the Nazis, even then only 36% of the British public

:17:39.:17:41.

believed the politicians were acting in the interests of the country and

:17:42.:17:47.

not feathering their own nests etc. So is the kicking they get

:17:48.:17:52.

warranted? The politicians don't help themselves. I have got a copy

:17:53.:17:58.

of the members' dining room menu, bottle of white wine ?17, down the

:17:59.:18:05.

road in Covent Garden ?30 pounds. Three course meal ?15, the reason it

:18:06.:18:12.

is for a steak and chip starter, coffee and dessert, that is what

:18:13.:18:17.

they can claim for a late night sitting, ?15 we pay. It costs ?15 if

:18:18.:18:22.

they stay late they get ?15, so they get the dinner for free.

:18:23.:18:28.

It is subsidised to the tune to make it ?15 so they can claim for. That

:18:29.:18:33.

is not accidental. The MPs sit on the catering committee that

:18:34.:18:35.

organises the pricing and the subsidy. The subsidy to the Members

:18:36.:18:40.

of Parliament for food and booze is millions. The hatred is unhe

:18:41.:18:46.

hadifying, but it is probably not going anywhere, and it is fuelling

:18:47.:18:50.

the anti-establishment feeling that propels UKIP. One Tory MP told

:18:51.:18:53.

Newsnight today that Maria Miller might have cost them their seat at

:18:54.:18:58.

the next election. The timing of the scandal shortly before a European

:18:59.:19:01.

election really won't help Conservatives. The Prime Minister's

:19:02.:19:07.

loyalty to his cabinet ministers might prove expensive. Sorry about

:19:08.:19:14.

the sound on the little bit of it. Ministers come and go, but in an

:19:15.:19:19.

ever-changing world constant as Orion's Belt is the Newsnight

:19:20.:19:23.

political panel, first convened to comment on the resignation of Dalton

:19:24.:19:27.

in 1947. Danny Finklestein of the Times, who used to work for William

:19:28.:19:31.

Hague, Olly Grender who worked for Nick Clegg, both of them members of

:19:32.:19:36.

the House of Lords in Government, and John McTernan who advised Tony

:19:37.:19:42.

Blair when he was Prime Minister. Striking, it is five years since the

:19:43.:19:49.

expenses scandal. It has come back. In voters' minds it is only five

:19:50.:19:53.

minutes? This case was all about the old expenses rules, so it was an

:19:54.:20:00.

old, what she did was years ago. So has come back for that reason. This

:20:01.:20:04.

sort of thing will come back because underlying is a dislike of

:20:05.:20:07.

politicians. Your report was quite right. So the expenses was more an

:20:08.:20:12.

effect than cause. People didn't like politicians, thought very lowly

:20:13.:20:16.

of them, then the expenses row happened and it acted as a proof

:20:17.:20:19.

point of what they had already thought. We and if anyone who is in

:20:20.:20:26.

mainstream politics tells you that they don't want to, on a day like

:20:27.:20:31.

today, frankly despair, because we all know politicians and we all know

:20:32.:20:35.

politicians who work very hard and who are above board, but this just

:20:36.:20:41.

does badly for politics across the board this kind of stuff. It is a

:20:42.:20:45.

real shame as well, it is in part tied up with kind of the threat of

:20:46.:20:50.

Leveson, which was used by her special adviser, in part the poor

:20:51.:20:54.

apology, but if you read through the detail of the actual report, it is

:20:55.:20:59.

really hard to get to the absolutely the nub of this. The Commons brought

:21:00.:21:04.

this on themselves. Either they have an allowances scheme or expenses

:21:05.:21:08.

scheme. And they have got a scheme called allowances, where they claim

:21:09.:21:12.

an expense against it. In the end they get caught in the detail. It is

:21:13.:21:18.

a deeper issue. Very profound disenchantment? I should say first

:21:19.:21:22.

of all I don't share this public view about politics, I'm a son of

:21:23.:21:28.

refugees, I know from my parents' experience there are a lot of worse

:21:29.:21:31.

places in the world where politics is done in a much worse way than

:21:32.:21:34.

here. But it is very, very important to understand it even if you don't

:21:35.:21:37.

share it and it is very deep. Certainly it is an explanation of a

:21:38.:21:42.

lot of the UKIP factor and an explanation why lots of people and

:21:43.:21:48.

things in politics don't meet and reach people. Do you think there are

:21:49.:21:54.

all sorts of mechanisms being put in place and are now being changed in

:21:55.:21:58.

order to try to rehabilitate the reputation of the political class,

:21:59.:22:03.

are they going to work? And here is the huge irony, I think it is right,

:22:04.:22:07.

like Leveson, if you say you can't mark your own homework for the

:22:08.:22:11.

media, you have to say the same for politicians. I think that is right.

:22:12.:22:14.

Then when we have an independent body that says there should be a pay

:22:15.:22:23.

rise, that's not sufficiently Israel real Politk during a recession so it

:22:24.:22:29.

doesn't work. There should be way of regulating politicians in the

:22:30.:22:33.

Commons and in the Lords that is above board, there is an element of

:22:34.:22:36.

independence. How you bring that about I don't know, given that IPSA

:22:37.:22:42.

doesn't seem to be working either. There was mention a moment ago about

:22:43.:22:46.

UKIP, it is something he said David Cameron has taken a lot of damage

:22:47.:22:49.

from this. Maybe he has taken some damage from it. But actually all the

:22:50.:22:53.

mainstream parties have suffered from this. The people who are going

:22:54.:22:57.

to gain from it are UKIP, aren't they? I think in the short-term this

:22:58.:23:04.

really hurts the Tories. Because David Cameron saw how palatiry the

:23:05.:23:13.

apology was on -- paltry the apology was on Thursday, and it was the

:23:14.:23:16.

contempt for the Commons and the public that built this into a bigger

:23:17.:23:21.

issue. Cameron didn't get a grip on it. UKIP are using it who will

:23:22.:23:26.

mainly hurt the Tories. It is true this drags every politicians'

:23:27.:23:31.

reputation down. Although the reputation has never been high. In a

:23:32.:23:35.

sense for me the underlying thing is Government just isn't that good at

:23:36.:23:39.

doing things. So some of the disenchantment is actually not a

:23:40.:23:42.

comment on this or anything else, it is simply on thinking how poor

:23:43.:23:47.

things were in the private sector in the 70, they have -- 70s, Government

:23:48.:23:53.

haven't improved the way services have. The interesting thing for

:23:54.:23:59.

Conservatives, an anti-politician and anti-Government feeling is

:24:00.:24:02.

something the Conservatives can use. In the sense it allies with the

:24:03.:24:09.

Conservative scepticism, one of the things, I don't think that in

:24:10.:24:12.

top-line voting this will turn out to be that significant, but it is

:24:13.:24:15.

significant in terms of the underlying sort of position of the

:24:16.:24:18.

Conservative Party in the long run. If you think as I do that a sort of,

:24:19.:24:23.

there is a long-term anti-establishment feeling which has

:24:24.:24:28.

hit the banks, hit the police, you hit the newspaper industry, and is

:24:29.:24:31.

hitting politicians, you have got to think how do you deal with that, and

:24:32.:24:34.

Conservatives need to have a response to that. I think the UKIP

:24:35.:24:43.

thing, they wrote the book on claiming expenses on the gravy train

:24:44.:24:46.

on the way to Brussels, it is extraordinary they are managing to

:24:47.:24:52.

capitalise on this. That is crazy. And it is ironic, five years ago

:24:53.:25:00.

bumf in the polls, just after the parliamentary expenses thing? It is

:25:01.:25:04.

not about expenses. I don't think a response to Nigel Farage that says

:25:05.:25:07.

you have been in politics for 20 years and claimed lots of expenses,

:25:08.:25:12.

effective debating points though those are and will really undermine

:25:13.:25:16.

UKIP because it is a rebellion against something bigger. There is a

:25:17.:25:18.

social class element, it is about the winners of globalisation versus

:25:19.:25:23.

the losers. This disillusionment with politicians is bigger and

:25:24.:25:26.

deeper and goes to more institutions than politics. Olly, you are trying

:25:27.:25:32.

to get a word in edgeways. Thank you so much. If it is about depressing

:25:33.:25:38.

people's belief in politics and politicians, every political party

:25:39.:25:41.

needs to look at that. Things like open primaries are interesting and

:25:42.:25:45.

that came from the Tories. I still believe that fundamentally the

:25:46.:25:49.

voting system has to change because if a donkey can put on a colour Ross

:25:50.:25:54.

set and stay in a safe seat things like that will never change. On

:25:55.:26:00.

things like expense, total transparency, which I think MPs have

:26:01.:26:04.

been learning post all the changes. So that you know... A lot of them

:26:05.:26:09.

really resent it. You have the last word? Putting on the website people

:26:10.:26:15.

go there and it is open and accessible. Let the poor chap have a

:26:16.:26:19.

word? I think in the end people connect to politics when politicians

:26:20.:26:24.

articulate their big concerns with big visions. We have a bunch of

:26:25.:26:27.

quite small politicians who deal with very marginal differences

:26:28.:26:31.

between all the political parties. There is no inspiration and very

:26:32.:26:35.

little hope. In the end the big visions transcend. At the moment

:26:36.:26:38.

personality is popular, like Farrage, Johnson or Salmond. You

:26:39.:26:42.

need great causes, great political parties have great cause, at the

:26:43.:26:45.

moment you search for the great cause. Thank you very much. Now

:26:46.:26:51.

there is a massive security clamp-down going on in Kenya. Police

:26:52.:26:56.

there say they pulled in nearly 4,000 people in the past week. The

:26:57.:27:02.

arrest after the killing last week of a controversial Muslim preacher

:27:03.:27:10.

in the coastal town of Mombasa. His supporters aduce -- accuse the

:27:11.:27:16.

Government of being behind it, the ATPU or the anti-terrorist police

:27:17.:27:21.

unit, funded by Britain. In December last year, Newsnight

:27:22.:27:29.

travelled to Mombasa to meet a radical Islamist. He features on a

:27:30.:27:36.

UN sanctions list, accused of recruiting terrorists, he said it

:27:37.:27:43.

was a joke. We thought you could be the guide? Do you want a terrorist

:27:44.:27:47.

for a guide? Sometimes! It depends on the occasion. This guy, he's a

:27:48.:27:52.

nephew, he was one of the people executed by the ATPU police

:27:53.:27:59.

officers. The one sitting there. MrAm membered is more commonly --

:28:00.:28:05.

Ahmed is more commonly known by a nickname, meaning "graveyard in

:28:06.:28:11.

Swahili, he said the Kenyan police were going to assassinate him. Do

:28:12.:28:17.

you fear for your safety? I don't fear for my safety, I know they are

:28:18.:28:22.

going to kill me. I believe my life and death is in the hands of Allah.

:28:23.:28:26.

I will only die the day Allah has ordained for me to die, not a moment

:28:27.:28:32.

before or after. That moment finally came last week, he was leaving this

:28:33.:28:37.

courthouse on the outskirts of Mombasa with around eight

:28:38.:28:41.

companions. Eye witnesses told us they saw a car approaching from out

:28:42.:28:47.

of town, doing a U-turn outside a high-security prison attached to the

:28:48.:28:54.

court. TRANSLATION: That is when I heard gunfire. There were many

:28:55.:29:02.

shots. We pushed each other as we tried to get down so we wouldn't get

:29:03.:29:05.

hit. We triumphed into a ditch and laid down. And then I heard two

:29:06.:29:13.

final gun shots. And then everything went silent. It was several hours

:29:14.:29:19.

before the authorities removed his body from the roadside and took it

:29:20.:29:25.

to the nearest police station. During the time the survivors of the

:29:26.:29:30.

shooting said they were forced to remain lying in the ditch.

:29:31.:29:35.

TRANSLATION: We told them the people who shot at us had headed out of

:29:36.:29:39.

town in black car and they should follow them. They told us to lie

:29:40.:29:43.

down and not move. Several witnesses remarked that there was no armed

:29:44.:29:47.

security officers at the scene, despite its proximity to the

:29:48.:29:52.

high-security jail. He was the third high-profile terror suspect to be

:29:53.:29:56.

shot and killed in the past two years. Now in private Kenyan

:29:57.:30:00.

security officials have made no secret of their involvement in some

:30:01.:30:06.

of these killings. Last year I spoke to one Mombasa-based security

:30:07.:30:10.

officer who said the cleric's days were numbered. When I spoke to him

:30:11.:30:15.

earlier this week he said his unit had not been directly involved, but

:30:16.:30:18.

the hit was carried out by security officers from outside Mombasa. Mr

:30:19.:30:26.

Ahmed and the other two murdered clerics were all associated with

:30:27.:30:34.

this mosque in Mombasa's rundown Najenga neighbourhood. In February

:30:35.:30:39.

police raided the mosque, saying it was a recruiting centre for

:30:40.:30:44.

Jihadists. They arrested more than 100 worshippers, at least four

:30:45.:30:47.

people lost their lives, including one policeman. Security officials

:30:48.:30:51.

and human rights groups agree on one thing, the police are sending a

:30:52.:30:56.

deliberate signal to those they see as terrorists. I have spoken to even

:30:57.:31:03.

people within the security agencies who own up and even come out to say

:31:04.:31:08.

you ain't seen nothing yet. We are going to do more, we kill, we shoot

:31:09.:31:14.

them to kill. Not to detain them. That is what we are going to be

:31:15.:31:18.

doing. This they will say to me within the ATPU premises. ATPU

:31:19.:31:24.

stands for Antit-Terror Police Unit, it receives funding and training

:31:25.:31:28.

from Britain and the United States, in a report released last November,

:31:29.:31:31.

two human rights groups documented what they said were dozens of cases

:31:32.:31:37.

of disappearences, and extra judicial killings carried out by the

:31:38.:31:42.

ATPU in recent years. Mr Ahmed had made similar accusations. The

:31:43.:31:46.

British Government is helping the ATPU in Kenya kill Muslims by

:31:47.:31:53.

training them providek logistical support and giving them money. We

:31:54.:31:59.

are supposed to be the terrorists. It is not clear whether the ATPU was

:32:00.:32:04.

involved in the shooting of Mr Ahmed, but one ATPU officer late

:32:05.:32:07.

last year told me that the police had lost faith in the courts and

:32:08.:32:13.

preferred, instead, to eliminate in his words terror suspects.

:32:14.:32:18.

But many fear this tactic, far from reducing radicalisation will have

:32:19.:32:24.

the opposite affect. If Britain or any other western country fund this

:32:25.:32:33.

unit and this unit violates the rights of Kenyans, it also goes to

:32:34.:32:40.

the British tax-payers, the anger. Why is their money being used for

:32:41.:32:43.

these killings, so the problem goes back to where it comes from. We are

:32:44.:32:51.

coming for you, your days are numbered. There is no doubt that

:32:52.:32:56.

Kenya has a problem with terrorism and radicalisation. Friday prayers

:32:57.:33:00.

is just coming to an end at the Muslim mosque, the first Friday

:33:01.:33:04.

prayers since the assassination of Mr Ahmed, and the sermon hasn't been

:33:05.:33:10.

a peaceful one, the preachers says if they inflict violence on you, you

:33:11.:33:14.

have to be violent back, don't throw stones, cut their heads off.

:33:15.:33:20.

Inevitably stones were thrown, the police were expecting trouble and

:33:21.:33:27.

they were there in force. When they are being killed they are there and

:33:28.:33:31.

looking and not doing anything. We as a Muslim society, we know Islam

:33:32.:33:38.

is peace, we want peace. Given the level of anger on the streets the

:33:39.:33:41.

violence could have been a lot worse. In response to a recent

:33:42.:33:48.

series of explosions, shootings and terror alerts, the security forces

:33:49.:33:51.

have deployed extra officers across the country. Thousands of people,

:33:52.:33:55.

many of them ethnic Somalis have been detained, some held in

:33:56.:34:00.

Nairobi's main stadium, while they are screened and have their

:34:01.:34:03.

identities checked. The authorities are sending out a clear message,

:34:04.:34:08.

we're getting tough. But they deny shooting Mr Ahmed or any other extra

:34:09.:34:13.

judicial killing. As the man in charge of the security in this

:34:14.:34:16.

country I'm the authority to tell the true Government position, and

:34:17.:34:19.

what I have given you is the Government position. Anything else

:34:20.:34:24.

is an allegation, outright Lois or malice. Nobody believes it? It is

:34:25.:34:29.

not our business to make you leave it or not. Even the security forces

:34:30.:34:34.

don't believe it? I'm speaking on behalf of the security forces, that

:34:35.:34:37.

is the position and the truth. You choose to take the truth, or you

:34:38.:34:41.

take the rumours. The choice is yours. The Foreign Office told us in

:34:42.:34:47.

statement that it regularly monitors the ATPU and challenges them on

:34:48.:34:51.

allegations of human rights abuses. If there is credible evidence that

:34:52.:34:55.

British support is being misused, they said, then immediate action

:34:56.:35:02.

would be taken. The Times this morning disclosed that the Ministry

:35:03.:35:05.

of Defence had been so irritated by the content of a book about the army

:35:06.:35:11.

as involvement in Afghanistan that -- army's involvement in Afghanistan

:35:12.:35:16.

it has tried to quash it. It is not the first time it has tried to do

:35:17.:35:19.

that. But the unusual part of this equation is it was the MoD itself

:35:20.:35:23.

that had commissioned the book from a Territorial Army officer, Dr

:35:24.:35:33.

Martens mat, the -- Dr Martens -- doctor Mike Martins. It maintains it

:35:34.:35:38.

is always ready to learn. But the lesson of history is that the

:35:39.:35:43.

British military, frequently begin any bar expecting to fight the last

:35:44.:35:50.

one. We were told that British troops would be perfectly happy to

:35:51.:35:58.

leave Helmand Province without even drawing their weapons. It didn't end

:35:59.:36:02.

that way. Over 400 British servicemen and women have died in

:36:03.:36:06.

Afghanistan since 2001, the majority of them in Helmand. Last week

:36:07.:36:15.

Britain handed over control of the province to US forces, but they too

:36:16.:36:20.

will leave as American troops go home. But as Britain's presence in

:36:21.:36:25.

Afghanistan comes to a close, what lessons can be learned from the

:36:26.:36:31.

conflict? These are e-mails from the Ministry of Defence apparently

:36:32.:36:33.

trying to prevent the publication of a book by an army captain critquing

:36:34.:36:39.

the military's time in Afghanistan. The book is being published any way.

:36:40.:36:43.

But is there an unwillingness to learn lessons from past military

:36:44.:36:50.

conflicts. Armies are very good at learning the lessons of past wars,

:36:51.:36:54.

they tend to overlearn lessons and prepare for the wrong wars in the

:36:55.:36:58.

future. In the case of the British Army they are good at learning

:36:59.:37:01.

lessons from Afghanistan, and avoiding the trap of overlearning

:37:02.:37:05.

the lessons. When it comes to policy lessons their states can be not so

:37:06.:37:09.

good as learning them. These can be politically embarrassing. An inquiry

:37:10.:37:13.

into the other major war of the century, Iraq, is under way yet

:37:14.:37:20.

still to report back. It is looking at the decisions to go to war. The

:37:21.:37:28.

Chilcot Inquiry started taking evidence in 2009, but it has been

:37:29.:37:34.

held up with arguments over whether sensitive documents can be made

:37:35.:37:37.

public. The national interest is often interpreted as being the

:37:38.:37:41.

Government's interest, as avoiding embarrassment. There is no scope for

:37:42.:37:46.

an inquiry result in Chilcot to that effect. We need an inquiry that lays

:37:47.:37:51.

bear, in every possible way consistent with the national

:37:52.:37:53.

interest the way in which the decision to go to war against Saddam

:37:54.:37:59.

Hussein was taken. This year marks the centinary of the outbreak of

:38:00.:38:04.

World War I. But while we honour the dead and commemorate past --

:38:05.:38:10.

tragedies, are we doing enough to help avoid them in the future. I'm

:38:11.:38:18.

joined but by Dr Mike Martin, whose book has created this stir, with him

:38:19.:38:21.

Sunday Times journalist and five-time winner of the foreign

:38:22.:38:26.

correspondent of the year, Christina Lamb, who has returned this

:38:27.:38:30.

afternoon from Afghanistan. What about this question of learning

:38:31.:38:34.

lessons, is it important and is it happening? Of course it is important

:38:35.:38:37.

to learn so we don't make the same mistakes. I know there is this

:38:38.:38:41.

argument that you are always fighting the last war. But there is

:38:42.:38:46.

a lot of things that we could have learned from what we have done wrong

:38:47.:38:50.

in Afghanistan and I actually think that the US army seems to have done

:38:51.:38:53.

that better than the British Army. What done a better learning

:38:54.:38:57.

exercise? Yes, I do. Because at the beginning the British I think were

:38:58.:39:01.

rather arrogant thinking that we had been used to the British Army was

:39:02.:39:06.

used to doing peacekeeping and being in Northern Ireland and didn't, and

:39:07.:39:10.

were used to working in populations in way that the US army wasn't. What

:39:11.:39:15.

is your main conclusion about the lessons that ought to be learned

:39:16.:39:20.

from the Afghanistan experience? The main conclusion of the book is that

:39:21.:39:25.

there has been massive intelligence failure in Helmand, and we have

:39:26.:39:28.

completely failed to understand the type of conflict that we have been

:39:29.:39:35.

fighting. Very briefly it is a Civil War between different tribes and

:39:36.:39:39.

families and it is fought over land and water and honour and poppy. By

:39:40.:39:47.

that I mean the UK media, the MoD and many military officers and

:39:48.:39:50.

development experts understand the war as an ideolgical conflict

:39:51.:39:53.

between the Taliban and the Government. And it is not? It is

:39:54.:39:58.

not, no. It is a very, very localised conflict driven by

:39:59.:40:02.

pragmatic matters, fights that have gone on for the last 30 years over

:40:03.:40:09.

land or... OK, you're talking about a profound misapprehension of what

:40:10.:40:13.

the situation was and what these wars were. Incidentally do you

:40:14.:40:17.

agree? I think it is a mixture of those things. I do agree that at the

:40:18.:40:20.

beginning there was no appreciation of that, but there is also a group

:40:21.:40:25.

called the Taliban, based in Pakistan that has an ideolgical

:40:26.:40:29.

point to prove. Has the MoD learned that lesson? I think they have

:40:30.:40:33.

recognised it, I think they have identified it, I don't think they

:40:34.:40:38.

have learned it. What do you mean, how can you identify it and not take

:40:39.:40:46.

any could go sans -- could go this sans of it? The broad idea

:40:47.:40:54.

surrounding the war with the legitimate Afghanistan Government

:40:55.:40:57.

and we were fighting the Taliban and we attribute bad things to the

:40:58.:41:04.

Taliban. I think that... It is possible isn't it that you could be

:41:05.:41:11.

learning lessons without learning them publicly? How much do you think

:41:12.:41:18.

that this sort of disclosure of the kind that made the MoD so

:41:19.:41:22.

apprehensive, shall we say, does it really need to be published. Surely

:41:23.:41:26.

these are internal lessons that need to be learned by the army? There is

:41:27.:41:31.

several different things here, the intelligence failure, absolutely.

:41:32.:41:34.

When I was going there as a journalist I was going into villages

:41:35.:41:37.

with soldiers and they clearly didn't have a clue what they were

:41:38.:41:43.

going to find there. And so maybe that sort of thing is more internal.

:41:44.:41:47.

But some of the other issues, for example the equipment, if those

:41:48.:41:51.

things hadn't become public at the time I don't think it would have

:41:52.:41:55.

changed. It was through people exposing that, our soldiers out

:41:56.:41:59.

there were travelling in snatch vehicles that were being blown up

:42:00.:42:02.

all the time and gave no protection, or there weren't enough helicopters.

:42:03.:42:06.

Through all of that becoming public that things changed. I don't think

:42:07.:42:10.

they would have been otherwise. And I actually find it very infuriating

:42:11.:42:16.

the amount of times that I was lied to by senior officers out there

:42:17.:42:20.

because they didn't want people to know things and subsequently said.

:42:21.:42:27.

What do you mean? Things like that about the equipment, the reasons

:42:28.:42:31.

people died. I think it does also apply to intelligence, it is about

:42:32.:42:35.

what type of army do we want as a nation? At the moment the army is

:42:36.:42:39.

going through a review process, they are rebalancing towards the reserves

:42:40.:42:43.

and the army 2020 programme out, do we want an army able to fight these

:42:44.:42:47.

types of wars or an army able to fight the type of war perhaps that

:42:48.:42:51.

is discussed over the Crimea incident recently? Thank you very

:42:52.:42:55.

much. Before we go tonight we are going to hear a bit of poetry, it

:42:56.:43:04.

comes from an Anthology out tomorrow called Peoples To Make Grown Men

:43:05.:43:20.

Cry. It is from Clive James who is suffering illness. He spoke from his

:43:21.:43:24.

home. The reason why it appeals to me so much is personal. It is about

:43:25.:43:30.

a man speaking to a woman in a canoe, she's about, they are about

:43:31.:43:33.

to sail away up the river and he makes it clear that he might not be

:43:34.:43:37.

coming back from the war and next time she might have to make the trip

:43:38.:43:41.

alone. And when I first read it I couldn't help thinking my mother and

:43:42.:43:45.

father, which means I suppose thinking of myself. It is a very

:43:46.:43:50.

personal poem to me. What was it about your mother and father that it

:43:51.:43:55.

made you think of? My father sailed off to the war and didn't come back.

:43:56.:44:00.

My mother was left alone the way the woman is going to be in the poem.

:44:01.:44:04.

She will have to travel alone next time she goes on the canoe trip.

:44:05.:44:10.

That rang a bell with me I'm afraid. One of the key things in Keith

:44:11.:44:15.

Douglas's work, and one of the first lines of the poem is a premonition

:44:16.:44:19.

of death, and death, does that have personal resonance for you? Yes,

:44:20.:44:24.

with a proviso, is there was a war on for Douglas, the chances are he

:44:25.:44:28.

was going to get killed any way. For my generation there was no war. And

:44:29.:44:34.

by some miracle of chance of luck we have lived out our lives. I'm sick

:44:35.:44:40.

now, but it is at the end of a long life in which I have been allowed to

:44:41.:44:43.

do pretty much as I wanted. So I will never forget my privilege as a

:44:44.:44:48.

writer, as a man of letters, as a poet, as a reader, it is a lucky,

:44:49.:44:54.

lucky thing to have. So the theme of my late poetry is luck, not death.

:44:55.:45:01.

But the theme of his poetry was death because it was all around him.

:45:02.:45:13.

It might happen to him and it did. "Well I'm thinking this may be my

:45:14.:45:17.

last summer, but can't lose even a part of pleasure in the old

:45:18.:45:21.

fashioned art of idleness, I can't stand aghast at whatever doom hovers

:45:22.:45:29.

in the background, while grass and buildings and the river, who know

:45:30.:45:33.

they are allowed to last forever exchange between them the whole

:45:34.:45:40.

subdued sound of this hot time. What sudden fearful fate can deter my

:45:41.:45:47.

shade wandering next year from a return. Whistle and I will hear and

:45:48.:45:53.

come again another evening when this boat travels with you alone towards,

:45:54.:45:59.

as you lie looking up for thunder again. This cool touch does not be

:46:00.:46:06.

token rain, it is my spirit that kisses your

:46:07.:46:17.

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