20/05/2014 Newsnight


20/05/2014

The stories behind the day's headlines. Newsnight asks: why shouldn't British Muslims fight in Syria? Silvio Berlusconi faces Jeremy Paxman. Plus a report on Chinese hackers.


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A British court convicts a British citizen for travelling to fight in

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the Syrian civil war. Why should joining a foreign war be a criminal

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offence in THIS country? The former Italian Prime Minister

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explains the finer points of diplomacy. Do you have a particular

:00:22.:00:28.

problem with Angela Merkel? Is it true you called her a unBLEEPable

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lard-arse? And how UKIP appeals not just to

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people who'd otherwise be Tories, but to deep into the Labour

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heartlands. If I'm honest, I never used to be racist, never. But this

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government, in the things it's doing, is making me racist. How

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traditional loyalties are fading as Labour becomes a party dominated by

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career politicians. The first man to be convicted under

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new terrorism laws was found guilty today. Mashudur Choudhury, a

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would-be jihadi from Portsmouth, had travelled to Syria and made the

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mistake later of returning to this country where he was picked up and

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charged with preparing for acts of terrorism. Choudhury was a liar and

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a fantasist, but the court judged him to be serious about his desire

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to join what he believed to be a holy war.

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Today's conviction raises the question: Why are hundreds of Brit

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leading cities like Portsmouth to fight in Syria? For some there are

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echoes of the Spanish Civil War, just fight against a brutal

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dictator. Mashudur Choudhury, convicted today,

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was one of the group of at least five young men from the city who

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chose to leave safe lives to fight. Around 400 from the UK have joined

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the caravan to Syria. I feel sorry about these young people because

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they have been brainwashed. Why do they go? Some, it is holy war. This

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Tory has a direct connection with an exclusive six months ago when I

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spoke to another young man from Portsmouth, when he was in Syria,

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close to the front line. He admitted to finding with -- fighting with

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Isis. He was in contact with all the young men from Portsmouth. He died

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two weeks after our interview. Here he is, spreading the word of Islam

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in his hometown. Born in Britain, he gave me a fascinating insight into

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the new world of jihad. This religious certainty plays into

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support for jihad. Newsnight consulted a leading scholar about

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this. He was one of the first to speak out against President Assad.

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They don't want an Islamic state, they want an Al-Qaeda state. We

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don't have any extremists, they want their own version, their own

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understanding of Islam, which they derive from the Internet! At the

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start of the conflict, some say there were parallels with the

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Spanish Civil War, which could be termed the jihad against brutal

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oppressor. But many are not on the right path. This is what you are

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saying is alarming. Indeed, it is. Changing the nature of the

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fighting, from fighting for freedom and dignity, from protecting their

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honour, their lives, to fighting to eradicate certain sect or a certain

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ethnicity, this is, I believe, very serious and dangerous. Our job is to

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highlight the importance of coexistence. Security sources say

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the Spanish Civil War and is broken. There is lethal infighting

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and the aim is as much about Al-Qaeda's desire to create original

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state and toppling Assad. It seems the jury considered that was indeed

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Mashudur Choudhury's true motivation.

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Well I'm joined by Abdullah Anas - a veteran of the Afghan-Soviet war,

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who used to count Osama bin Laden as his friend, but distanced himself

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from Al-Qaeda completely. And also Asim Qureshi from the campaign group

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CAGE which works on behalf of those accused of terrorist offences, and

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Raffaello Pantucci from the Royal United Services Institute. Let's

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turn to this comparison that was raised at the end of that report.

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People from this country went and fought in the Spanish 44 and many

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people felt rather fondly and proudly towards them. -- Spanish

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Civil War. People have gone off and fought with the Israeli defence

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forces. In what respect is this particular offence of going to Syria

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and acute missa which deserves being sent to jail for? The difference is

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the battlefield you're going to participate in and the groups you

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are going to fight alongside. When you are looking like groups like

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ISIS, or the Al-Qaeda connected groups on the ground, they have

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espoused a desire to attack the West. So you are not going to join a

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group that is just participating in a civil war against regime, they are

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group that has history on trying to attack the West. So had these young

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men gone to fight for Assad, that would have been all right? That is a

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fair point, and the debate there is I think the law as it stands says it

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is not permissible to go and that is not permissible to go and put a

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spate infighting in this Civil War. This particular Civil War? In terms

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of legislation are people going to join the Assad side, I don't think

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that has happened so we don't have... But we don't know, of

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course. We don't know. Is this young men

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course. We don't know. Is this young others? I don't think so. I

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course. We don't know. Is this young there is a certain feeling among

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young Muslim men in the there is a certain feeling among

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they want to go out and help. Some of them are attracted to groups like

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ISIS, and despite warnings that are given by different community leaders

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across the country, they are going out there to join them. But I think

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the vast majority, there isn't a single voice here in the UK that is

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encouraging them to go out there. But it is, though, is many of them

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are looking at the conflict and they have a desire to assist. You have to

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separate the ethics from the pragmatism of the situation. Most of

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the Muslims in the UK will say there is nothing unethical about wanting

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to go out and defend somebody or defend the people that are being

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killed, massacres, but what we are saying is that, if that's the most

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pragmatic thing to do? Do you try to prevent them, discourage them? I

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don't have access to prevent them, discourage them? I

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community in that way. You are originally Algerian and you fought

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in Afghanistan. What was it that drew you to Afghanistan from a long

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distance away? I think what drew me to Afghanistan will continue drawing

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the new generations hereafter. When you have that intention of being

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Shaheed, or being a major hit, this will never finish, this didn't start

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with me in 1983, and will never stop with my son. So we're not coming

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here to comment about the intentions. The intentions, I think

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it is a positive intention. You see your brother or women or children

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being killed in Syria or in Afghanistan, so your religion, your

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face, forces you to be positive and to be positive here, to help. --

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your faith. So we're not here to comment about the intention, we are

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here, I am here, to give my opinion about the actions. So the action, I

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think, is not a matter of saying how Al or a RAM. It is deeper than that.

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I don't know if I can explain it, it is whether going to Syria now in the

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circumstances is harmful or beneficial. What is your view on

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that? It's harmful. As a form in which a Dean, -- mujahedin, as we

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started this idea. What is the difference? You felt it was

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legitimate, it was all right, to go to Afghanistan to fight, but you

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think it is a bad idea to go to Syria to fight, why? The intention

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is still not bad. The circumstances now, it's not the same

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circumstances. Why? In my opinion, I am sure there is no time to explain

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it deeply now, that is why maybe I wrote my biography, in order to

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answer all these questions and confusion in the mind. I have to

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find a good publisher now! But what the difference between Syria and

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Afghanistan? I will send children to Syria -- never send boys to fight in

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Syria. But there are many obstacles there. If you had heard me with the

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people we followed three days ago, after the split happened with

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Al-Qaeda, they announced that they had an agreement with the Iranians

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intelligence not to have any operation in Iran. So this makes me

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more careful to advise my son or two any young Muslim, to go there,

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because if you are not in between the hands of the intelligence, you

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are in the hands... That is why the attention is fine, the action is

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harmful -- the intention is fine. The concern of government in framing

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the law is the protection of its own citizens, of the country. Is there

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concrete evidence that young men going off to take part in this sort

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of war , the Syrian Civil War, possibly, actually are a risk to

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this country? I would say look at history, and if we look at every

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battlefield that has shaped like this, where you have groups on the

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ground that spies a jihadi rhetoric, they have all produced some sort of

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terrorist threat back home in the West. -- espoused. But they don't

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support that. If you look at all the actual plot that took place in the

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UK, where there was a plot in the centre, 66 individuals involved,

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crossed 12 different plots, and in that circumstance, the one thing we

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saw was that hardly any of them had had training in a conflict zone

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previously, to then deciding to do this action. A lot of them went

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abroad... But you had Abdullah came back... You look at Somalia... This

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is the point I'm trying to make. But they go abroad because of their

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foreign policy grievance. In all of those cases, it is not that they had

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gone to a conflict zone and then, because of that, had established a

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certain mentality. They became disenfranchised from the society,

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then they went abroad and then they came back. In every single one of

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those cases... But the net result is they come back to try and launch an

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attack. When we look at Syria, it would be very surprising... If you

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look at the proportion that comeback in turn up as terrorists, in the

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West, they do produce... But not everyone who's going out to Syria

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will come back as a terrorist threat. Amongst that number, it is

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likely, and we are already seeing some evidence of plotting. The point

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is purely about the numbers, which is that we don't see any of the same

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numbers of people going off to Iraq and Afghanistan post-9/11 we do with

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Syria. The reason we do with Syria is because Muslims in the UK, like

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with Libya, which was completely permissible, according to this

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government, they were going there for that purpose, they are going

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there because they don't feel any conflict between being British and

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wanting to go out and fight. There are problems with groups like ISIS,

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but these people are going up there with good intentions, and what we

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need to do is to help them. They are participating a battle that is

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confusing. It is shocking you see them going to fight, they might go

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with intentions to fight for the regime or against it. But people are

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dying out there. Thanks very much. Amme, we're going to explore why so

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many people seem to be preparing to vote for UKIP in the elections laetr

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this week. But this disenchantment with regular politicians is spread

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right across Europe, as more and more people become fed up with the

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EU. In Italy, for example, the governing party is being pressed by

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a party led by Beppe Grillo, a comedian, who rejects all EU budget

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rules and promises a referendum on whether his country should stay in

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the euro. The party of Silvio Berlusconi, who so recently was

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Prime Minister, is running third. Of course, he has had other things to

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think about - charges of fraud, of sex with underage prostitutes, and

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so on. I went to see him at his villa outside Milan. This interview

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contains strong language. There will never be a United States of Europe?

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TRANSLATION: No, that was a dream that will never come true. Today's

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EU is different from the dreams of its founding fathers. The EU has a

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very invalid and Steve can policy. And a very imbalanced tax policy. --

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imbalanced foreign policy. When we had a meeting with the heads of

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state, I propose to have just one president. I suggested Tony Blair.

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He was charismatic. George Bush, a good friend of mine. He rang me up.

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He asked me who to speak to in order to understand the European position

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in Iraq. I told him to try to contact everybody. I am very

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concerned, very concerned about what the European Union is doing and its

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behaviour towards the Russian Federation with this absurd

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sanctions that the UN and USA are imposing on people they think are

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close to Vladimir Putin. They are putting distance between our

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countries, and this could mean that Russia returns to the isolation of

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the Cold War. The euro was always a political project. In your

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judgement, is Europe growing apart, or is it continuing to grow closer?

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We need to radically change the situation in Europe. For example,

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the fact that the UK is not in the Eurozone and we are is a disaster.

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We need radical changes, otherwise the economic situation will force us

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and other European countries to abandon the euro and go back to

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national currencies. The European Central Bank is supposed to fight

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inflation. It needs to be a central bank, like the Federal Reserve, like

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the Bank of England, the bank of Japan. What does it need to do?

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First, it needs to guarantee the debt of the euro countries and

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secondly to print money when needed for those countries who cannot pay

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their debts. Have you got a particular problem

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with Angela Merkel? Did you call her an unfuckable lardarse? No I have

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never had any problems with Angela Merkel. In 20 years of politics, I

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have never insulted anyone. This has been made up by somebody who wanted

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to turn Angela against me. I was not an easy person to deal with and I

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was quite tough. I had the courage to propose some of the proposals

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made by Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy. The time you jumped out

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from behind a monument and went cuckoo, to Angela Merkel, that was a

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joke? She enjoyed it. I explained why I did the cuckoo thing. Days

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earlier I went to Saint Petersburg to visit Putin. Putin, he hid behind

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the pillar and went, cuckoo, to me, from behind. Merkel and I were on

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good terms. I thought of what he had done and I basically hid behind the

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monument and did the same thing. It was funny. This only matters

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because, at this level of European politics, personal relationships are

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important. With Sarkozy, it is a different matter. He feared my

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friendship with Gadaffi Woodstock Libya supplying oil and gas. He

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moved first to attack Libya and I think it was a big mistake. In your

:21:40.:21:52.

analysis, what is wrong with Italian politics, you have had three prime

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ministers in the past year. Everything? Italy is no longer a

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democracy. In the past 20 years we have had four examples of coup

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d'etats. We have had three successive governments that would

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not directly elected recently. The deadline for the European elections

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is looming. We faced two major threats. The first is the remaining

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risk of a left-wing government and the other, you have probably heard

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of him, is from Mr Beppe Grillo. He is a real danger to Italy and I are

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very concerned. His behaviour reminds me of some of the most

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bloody and dangerous characters in history. He has many things in

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common with Robespierre, Stalin and Pol Pot. So he is not to be taken

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lightly. It is unfortunate that as far as the rest of the world is

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concerned, the reputation you have is about your private life. It is

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about corruption and unpaid taxes and parties. What do you think about

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that? Since I entered politics, I have been involved in 57 trials. I

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have never had to deal with judges previously. 46 of the cases were

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dismissed. I am dealing with ours -- others concerning my assets. It

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takes up a lot of my time. For 20 years, I have spent every weekend

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and each Monday afternoon with lawyers, to prepare the 2700

:24:27.:24:36.

hearings held against me and my team will -- team. 2700 is a record, a

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world record. And the lies invented about me have given me a bad

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reputation abroad. Italians know very well that none of the facts are

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true. The bunga bunga accusations were the most amazing things,

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ridiculous. They manipulated reality. Luckily, I am a strong

:25:38.:25:42.

person and I was able to take it. I want to go down in history as the

:25:43.:25:47.

father of a country and as my legacy, a Conservative Central right

:25:48.:25:52.

government to protect Italy from a potential dictator like Beppe

:25:53.:25:53.

Grillo. The United States and China are busy

:25:54.:26:14.

throwing names at each other after Washington accused five named

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Chinese officers of hacking into American nuclear, metal and solar

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firms to steal trade secrets. In the general manner of accusations of

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espionage, there was much outrage, just as there used to be theatrical

:26:28.:26:31.

horror at the discovery that spies existed. But the targets demonstrate

:26:32.:26:34.

the extent to which international competition is increasingly about

:26:35.:26:38.

firewalls as much as firearms. David Grossman reports.

:26:39.:26:48.

Five named People's Liberation Army officers charged by the American

:26:49.:26:52.

authorities with 31 counts of cyber-espionage. They are part of a

:26:53.:26:58.

group known as a Pty, advance persistent threat group one. The US

:26:59.:27:03.

government is convinced it is a Chinese state operation. This

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administration will not tolerate actions by any nation that seeks to

:27:09.:27:12.

sabotage American companies and undermine the integrity of fair

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competition. Although the US authorities only made charges in

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relation to activities against five US companies, Newsnight has learned

:27:26.:27:30.

the same group of Chinese state military hackers has also targeted

:27:31.:27:33.

eight British companies using the same tactics. It is an explosive

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allegation. The FBI in investigation was prompted by this report, written

:27:47.:27:54.

by a security specialists. They gave us a briefing on how the attacks

:27:55.:27:59.

worked. We were told the potential damage to British companies is

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virtually limitless. We have seen attacks focus on the most critical

:28:04.:28:09.

parts of organisations. Unlike traditional cyber crime, something

:28:10.:28:13.

that was an annoyance, you could lose a huge tender. If it is a

:28:14.:28:18.

closed bid. If somebody knows how much you have bid, if they bid ?1

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less, they will potentially win the business. It has a commercial impact

:28:24.:28:28.

and potential to be catastrophic. What do we know about the hackers?

:28:29.:28:37.

According to the group, they are commonly known as Unit 61398. This

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is the building it is said the attacks came from. The Chinese

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government reacted with angry denials. TRANSLATION: The United

:28:56.:29:03.

States deliberately made up facts coming using the excuse of the

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so-called stealing of secrets online to indict five Chinese military

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officials. This has violated the basic principles of international

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relations and damaged Chinese US cooperation and mutual trust. Here

:29:18.:29:31.

is an actor installing something onto the server. This is voted off a

:29:32.:29:38.

cyber attack happening. We spoke to one of the original report's authors

:29:39.:29:43.

about how certain she was the Chinese government are behind this

:29:44.:29:49.

activity. We did a lot of research, looking at the attacker

:29:50.:29:52.

infrastructure, doing research on personas involved in hacking, and

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taking advantage of operational security practices to link this back

:29:59.:30:03.

to a specific location in Shanghai. We did research and noticed that

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some telecommunications equipment they were using was given to them

:30:08.:30:13.

from the Chinese government. It was a combination of variables that led

:30:14.:30:19.

us to the conclusion. As to what happens now, it seems inconceivable

:30:20.:30:24.

the five named army officers will ever face any legal process in the

:30:25.:30:31.

United States. This is, as a source said, using the law as a tool of

:30:32.:30:37.

diplomacy. The question is whether Britain will follow the United

:30:38.:30:40.

States down this road in defence of British companies that have been

:30:41.:30:45.

attacked. We asked the National crime agency

:30:46.:30:51.

if they were aware of persistent attacks on British agencies and what

:30:52.:30:54.

they intend to do about them. They told us it wasn't a question for

:30:55.:30:58.

them but referred us to the Cabinet Office. They would only say that

:30:59.:31:02.

this country faced attacks from a range of sources including several

:31:03.:31:07.

established a capable states, but didn't name China.

:31:08.:31:11.

The chief executive of the Football League and author of various

:31:12.:31:13.

potty-mouthed sexist emails, Richard Scudamore, isn't going to have any

:31:14.:31:16.

action taken against him by the sport's governing body. They say

:31:17.:31:19.

they've no authority to do anything. The eruption of apologies testifies

:31:20.:31:22.

to the huge embarrassment felt in the sport. There is more to come.

:31:23.:31:33.

Laura Kuenssberg is here. It's a pretty unsavoury episode. In case

:31:34.:31:38.

you about your fingers in your ears, what has happened is a temporary PA

:31:39.:31:42.

leaked a series of e-mails that he had written containing some pretty

:31:43.:31:46.

grisly sexist language to a Sunday newspaper. He has given a full

:31:47.:31:50.

apology but there have been plenty of calls for him to go, including

:31:51.:31:54.

the Prime Minister, more or less hinting at that. But the FA has said

:31:55.:32:02.

there is nothing they can do, and the PA who leads the e-mails says

:32:03.:32:06.

the investigation didn't even ask her for her account of what went on.

:32:07.:32:10.

The other thing is, football isn't just about the game, it's about

:32:11.:32:17.

business too. And you have something on that? Right now, the premiership

:32:18.:32:24.

is sponsored by Barclays in a deal worth tens and tens of millions of

:32:25.:32:28.

pounds. Right now I am being told that they have expressed privately,

:32:29.:32:36.

horror and disappointment over what has happened. What is interesting is

:32:37.:32:39.

they had suggested to me that even before this erupted, they had

:32:40.:32:43.

decided that when this sponsorship deal comes up with the Premier

:32:44.:32:48.

League, they will not want to renew the deal. That's not just because

:32:49.:32:53.

the newest Chief Executive doesn't like football, although I am told

:32:54.:32:56.

but is also the case, but because he feels that football and the Premier

:32:57.:33:03.

League doesn't match up as a brand with the cultural clean-up that he

:33:04.:33:09.

is trying to achieve at Barclays. So this is a banker thinking that there

:33:10.:33:15.

are institutions held in low esteem than banking? ! That may be

:33:16.:33:21.

surprising to some viewers. But please say no decisions have been

:33:22.:33:27.

taken, there is no truth in this suggestion, but one source at one of

:33:28.:33:30.

the clubs says that is indeed what everybody expects, that when the

:33:31.:33:35.

deal is up, Barclays will walk away. So we find ourselves in a

:33:36.:33:39.

pretty bizarre play-off for reputation, where bankers are trying

:33:40.:33:44.

to disassociate themselves from footballers! Curiouser and

:33:45.:33:51.

curiouser. The day after

:33:52.:33:54.

curiouser. day. In England we can choose not

:33:55.:33:57.

only who we want to represent us in the European parliament, but, much

:33:58.:34:00.

closer to home, many of the people who will control local councils. In

:34:01.:34:04.

some northern towns, the result has been a foregone conclusion since

:34:05.:34:07.

Methuselah was a lad. Rotherham in South Yorkshire, for example, has 57

:34:08.:34:09.

Labour councillors, handful of conservatives and one UKIP seat.

:34:10.:34:13.

This year Nigel Farage's party has been blanketing the town with

:34:14.:34:15.

posters, chasing the blue-collar vote. Now, the orthodox view is that

:34:16.:34:22.

UKIP poses its biggest threat to the Conservatives. That may no longer be

:34:23.:34:24.

true. Labour has always been in Rotherham,

:34:25.:34:46.

as long as I can remember. My grandparents, my parents, they have

:34:47.:34:53.

all voted Labour. But times change. I think it's time for a change.

:34:54.:35:04.

This centre has been called the UKIP centre. I am not UKIP and they know

:35:05.:35:15.

that. So I went discussing UKIP because I don't care who gets in,

:35:16.:35:22.

they are all the same. My brothers, my sisters, we were all Labour, they

:35:23.:35:29.

will still go Labour now immaterial of what is happening. What do you

:35:30.:35:38.

think they are offering you, Labour? They are not offering me much. This

:35:39.:35:45.

is a safe labour ward for generations. Then last year, UKIP

:35:46.:35:49.

won its first ever seat on the council. The party has been taking

:35:50.:35:54.

its message out to blue-collar workers, angry with mainstream

:35:55.:36:00.

politics. The main policies I am voting UKIP for its because I think

:36:01.:36:05.

we should come out of Europe and I think we should curb immigration.

:36:06.:36:10.

They will never stop it now, because they will be closing the door when

:36:11.:36:16.

it has all happened. Why do you feel so negative about immigration? It's

:36:17.:36:27.

like our working lads. They work, they get immigration in, they will

:36:28.:36:30.

work for Britain's so it's not fair on our lads. If I'm honest, I never

:36:31.:36:38.

used to be racist, never. But this government, in the things it's

:36:39.:36:42.

doing, is making me racist. And I think it's not just me, it's

:36:43.:36:48.

thousands of other people, it's making as semi-racist, if you know

:36:49.:36:52.

what I mean. They are letting immigrants in and giving them

:36:53.:36:57.

everything. We would like the old brother Ron back. One in 20

:36:58.:37:03.

residents of rubber room was born outside the UK, a number that has

:37:04.:37:07.

doubled in a decade. It still a long way below the national average. A

:37:08.:37:16.

bustling Asian market has just opened, held once a week in the town

:37:17.:37:24.

centre. I believe this is my country, even my children tell me,

:37:25.:37:30.

this is our country. And if I say that after 42 years I'm still

:37:31.:37:36.

Pakistani, I am lying to myself. Muhammad came to Rotherham from

:37:37.:37:42.

Kashmir. He worked most of his life in the steelworks. In your time in

:37:43.:37:46.

this country, how have you traditionally voted? Which party

:37:47.:37:52.

would you vote for? Most time, we voted for Labour but we have voted

:37:53.:37:57.

for conservatives as well. What has the Labour Party offered you? I

:37:58.:38:03.

don't know much about the politics, but the way we think about the

:38:04.:38:08.

Labour Party, they provided jobs, and we needed jobs. This is how we

:38:09.:38:13.

think and we supported them previously. That is what I'm saying.

:38:14.:38:20.

But today, times are different. I don't think this way, our children

:38:21.:38:28.

don't think this way. On the outskirts of Rotherham, the old

:38:29.:38:32.

colliery is being shut down. The last of its kind in South Yorkshire,

:38:33.:38:38.

heavy industry has declined and so has the strength of labour's core

:38:39.:38:46.

vote. Up towards the pit... Have you always been a Labour voter? Apart

:38:47.:38:54.

from last year won a budget UKIP, that was a protest vote. When there

:38:55.:38:57.

is an election, I will always vote Labour. All the way through your

:38:58.:39:05.

life? What has the Labour Party meant to you? I am working class, it

:39:06.:39:14.

has meant everything. I've can't put it into words. But it has changed

:39:15.:39:23.

over the last 30 years, politics. It has got worse, not better. All this

:39:24.:39:33.

being in Europe and stuff like that. It is the general discontent with

:39:34.:39:36.

the establishment which UKIP has been trying to tap into. A study

:39:37.:39:42.

this year found 40% of voters who describe themselves as working class

:39:43.:39:46.

saving now have no representation in politics. The only thing we have

:39:47.:39:52.

gone wrong as we have allowed mass immigration... The only place that

:39:53.:39:57.

people want to come is Britain, because we have got the best welfare

:39:58.:40:05.

system in Europe. Switzerland and Norway aren't in that they are doing

:40:06.:40:11.

very well. Do you think the Labour Party still represents you? Not like

:40:12.:40:19.

in the 40s and 50s. Dennis Skinner and Tony Benn, they were real Labour

:40:20.:40:25.

men, not like what we have got now. Well the men at the miners welfare

:40:26.:40:28.

may feel disillusioned, they still say they will vote Labour this week.

:40:29.:40:35.

A younger generation might not feel those ties so strongly. All be so

:40:36.:40:42.

loyal at the ballot box. I will vote for UKIP. They shouldn't let

:40:43.:40:47.

foreigners into the country when we couldn't even look after our own. I

:40:48.:40:53.

have been working since the age of 14 and my tax sometimes goes to the

:40:54.:40:56.

wrong things and I think they need to look at that to go to the right

:40:57.:41:05.

sort of things. Do you feel as a voter, is it time for a change?

:41:06.:41:10.

Definitely. They have not done anything in my eyes for them to stay

:41:11.:41:14.

in, I think it is time for a change, see what other people can bring to

:41:15.:41:18.

the table, see if they can change things in the amount of time they

:41:19.:41:21.

have got and if they can do something to help this town come

:41:22.:41:24.

back to the way it is supposed to be. Enough warning signs, then, for

:41:25.:41:30.

Ed Miliband. There is little doubt that UKIP will take some votes from

:41:31.:41:34.

later this week, the real question is how many and whether it can hold

:41:35.:41:39.

onto them next year the election that matters the most. Labour's

:41:40.:41:46.

Shadow Communities Secretary is here. Do you understand why some

:41:47.:41:50.

previous Labour voters now support UKIP? I do, because the world has

:41:51.:41:58.

changed for some people, old industries have gone. There is a

:41:59.:42:01.

group of people who feel the world is more insecure, the old deal that

:42:02.:42:07.

you worked hard, you got on, your children can look forward to a

:42:08.:42:10.

better life, people are not social about that because of a changing

:42:11.:42:13.

world, what is happening in the environment, people being able to

:42:14.:42:18.

afford rent, a place to buy, pensions... The question is what is

:42:19.:42:25.

going to provide the solution? What is going to help? I would simply say

:42:26.:42:29.

about Nigel Farage that is the answer to every problem that we face

:42:30.:42:33.

is to say get out of Europe. That isn't the answer to any of them.

:42:34.:42:40.

Nonetheless, people are clearly profoundly disenchanted, not all

:42:41.:42:44.

people, but many people, profoundly disenchanted with what your party

:42:45.:42:48.

has two offer. You saw it in the way they spoke fondly about Dennis

:42:49.:42:55.

Skinner and your dad. They think, a lot of these people, that the party

:42:56.:42:59.

has been taken over by a bunch of professional politicians. What is

:43:00.:43:08.

politics about? Why do I do this job? Why is Ed Miliband the leader

:43:09.:43:14.

of the party? It is because we want to make a difference. We want to use

:43:15.:43:21.

the opportunity as elected representatives to deal with the

:43:22.:43:26.

problems. Somebody mentioned on the film wages, why did Ed Miliband talk

:43:27.:43:31.

this week about a stronger minimum wage. Labour brought Latin, dealing

:43:32.:43:36.

with the exploitation of the past. We listen and think about the

:43:37.:43:41.

problems people face. The people are not listening, are they? It will be

:43:42.:43:47.

a close fight in the election next year and also a tight fight in this

:43:48.:43:51.

one. You have to stand up for what you believe in and say to people if

:43:52.:43:57.

you are privately renting, spending 41% of your income on rent in this

:43:58.:44:01.

country, we have said we think people should have longer term

:44:02.:44:06.

tenancies. You are a family with children about to start school. What

:44:07.:44:11.

good is that if in 12 months the landlord does not renew the tendency

:44:12.:44:15.

or you are not sure about the rent gumming up. People worry about

:44:16.:44:22.

energy bills. Ed Miliband said it was not good enough to say you

:44:23.:44:26.

cannot do anything about the free market. You have mentioned Ed

:44:27.:44:30.

Miliband four times, is he a man of the people, as much as Nigel

:44:31.:44:40.

Farage? I think Ed Miliband is. I have travelled with him. People feel

:44:41.:44:44.

he is approachable and they talk to him. The test of a politician is

:44:45.:44:51.

have you listened, have you got policies that will make a difference

:44:52.:44:58.

to people's lives? We have a job to get across to people the policies we

:44:59.:45:02.

are arguing for so they are heard by voters. The disenchantment you heard

:45:03.:45:08.

in that piece suggest you are saddled with a leader who is more

:45:09.:45:11.

interested in ideas rather than people. I do not agree. If you are

:45:12.:45:17.

going to help people you need policies that will make a

:45:18.:45:23.

difference. Take the insecurity over zero-hours contracts. How can you

:45:24.:45:30.

possibly save... How can you get a mortgage on a zero hours contract?

:45:31.:45:35.

Ed Miliband said we need to deal with the worst aspects of them

:45:36.:45:39.

because the story is for a group of people the world appears to have

:45:40.:45:44.

moved on and left them behind. They feel insecure. The job of Labour

:45:45.:45:50.

politics is to show we understand that and to put forward policies to

:45:51.:45:55.

provide help. Last time you said it was a protest vote and you were

:45:56.:45:58.

listening and you were going to change. I assume you have listened.

:45:59.:46:08.

They are not believing you. It is a struggle, it is an argument and

:46:09.:46:13.

debate about what future the country will have. For the moment, Nigel

:46:14.:46:19.

Farage appears to get a certain amount of support and he is very

:46:20.:46:23.

charming in his own way, although he leads an unappetising party. In the

:46:24.:46:30.

end, his other policies, such as a flat tax rate, which would increase

:46:31.:46:35.

taxes the people we saw in the film, making us pay to see the GP,

:46:36.:46:39.

getting out of Europe, which would be bad the jobs. None of those

:46:40.:46:46.

policies are going to help the people you were talking to in that

:46:47.:46:51.

film. I think that in time, if we make the case, get across what

:46:52.:46:55.

Labour wants to do to make a difference, that is how you win

:46:56.:47:03.

support. Thanks. I will show you one front page, the Daily Mail, saying

:47:04.:47:07.

Prince Charles, I am not sure where he said this, it is not clear, but

:47:08.:47:12.

Prince Charles has apparently compare to Vladimir Putin to Hitler.

:47:13.:47:18.

A withering verdict on the actions of the Russian president in Ukraine,

:47:19.:47:22.

according to the Daily Mail. I only have the front page and presumably

:47:23.:47:31.

the sources inside. Time to say good night. Although

:47:32.:47:35.

members of Led Zeppelin may not sleep too well. The estate of one

:47:36.:47:47.

Randy California, a musician who played at the same time as them in

:47:48.:47:51.

the late 1960s, and who died in poverty, is suing for copyright

:47:52.:47:54.

infringement. It is claimed that Stairway To Heaven, which has

:47:55.:47:57.

grossed more than half a billion dollars since 1971, sounds rather

:47:58.:48:00.

too much like Mr California's rather less well-known guitar instrumental,

:48:01.:48:04.

called Taurus. We'll let you decide the merits of the claim. Here's his

:48:05.:48:10.

track, with a bit of Robert Plant vocal added on top.

:48:11.:48:13.

Good night. For a lot of places it should be

:48:14.:48:57.

fine and dry

:48:58.:49:00.

Why shouldn't British Muslims fight in Syria? Silvio Berlusconi faces Jeremy Paxman, and there are reports on Chinese hackers, the Premier League row, and UKIP's grabbing of Labour voters.