22/05/2014 Newsnight


22/05/2014

With Laura Kuenssberg. Elections fallout, fracking in Southern England, unrest in Libya and fast food workers fight to supersize their wages.


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Transcript


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The campaigning is done, polling stations closed, but who, if anyone

:00:00.:00:13.

did you choose? If we get what we like things will never be the same

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thing. Governments expect a drubbing in local and European election, but

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Westminster's trio might all be shamed by Nigel Farage's people's

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army. Can I ask you who you voted for? UKIP. Why? They are the best

:00:29.:00:33.

ones, simple as that. What is wrong with the other parties. Same old

:00:34.:00:39.

crap. Going underground, the BBC learns an official report will say

:00:40.:00:44.

there are billions of barrels of oil under England's southern green and

:00:45.:00:55.

pleasant land. But will the Shires accept fracking.

:00:56.:00:59.

If intervention is so easy in Libya, why is one of the original backers

:01:00.:01:05.

of the west's involvement in toppling Gadaffi, supporting another

:01:06.:01:13.

uprising, we will ask him live from Paris. Super-size me, McDonalds

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staff in America ask to super-size their wages. We ask is this the

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start of something big? Good evening. 32 minutes ago the doors

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closed, the ballot boxes were sealed, and now the race to count

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the votes is under way. And although a majority of voters will have

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chosen none of the above, by simply staying at home, the results of

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these European and local elections are the biggest clues we will get

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before the general election about which lucky individual will win the

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right to occupy Number Ten from next year.

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Governing parties, nearly always take a hammering half-term. If Ed

:01:59.:02:05.

Miliband can't make gains, packing up and going home might look like an

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option. It won't have escaped your notice that voters may have for the

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first time ever put UKIP at the top of their list. The party the Prime

:02:15.:02:22.

Minister once branded "fruitcakes, and loonies". We spent the day in

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Thanet in Kent, one you have UKIP's best bets.

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Welcome to Ramsgate in east Kent. Even as it votes in European

:02:41.:02:44.

elections, it feels a very long way from Brussels or Westminster. But

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seeing the anger here towards the old political parties is crucial for

:02:50.:02:53.

understanding changes in British politics.

:02:54.:02:56.

A disillusionment that is, in part, because of an idea from political

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science. An idea that's best understood by looking at how, well,

:03:01.:03:08.

ice-cream vans work near beaches. So imagine a beach with three ice-cream

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vans, each one third of the way along the beach. They would each get

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a third of the custom. It would make sense for the two at the end to

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drive to join the one in the middle, giving them a bigger market share

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each. The similar things happen in politics. That might help explain

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why lots of voters here feel that the old political parties are

:03:39.:03:42.

neither distinctive nor attractive. And one party seems to be the main

:03:43.:03:47.

beneficiary. I have been a member of UKIP for about a day to be fair. But

:03:48.:03:53.

they really resonate with me, and I was very anti-politics before they

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came along as well. So I had no interest in anything, because

:03:58.:04:01.

everything was the same. Can I ask who you voted for? UKIP. Can I ask

:04:02.:04:06.

why? They are the best ones. What is wrong with the other parties? Same

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old crap. Do you mind if I ask who you used to vote for? Labour. -- Ten

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people around the polling stations said UKIP. UKIP. I don't know what

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they have got against everyone else. UKIP, tell the others to go and

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stuff themselves! Not that the tide is entirely going UKIP's way. Green

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Party. Can I ask why? Because the I wasn't giving UKIP my vote and I'm

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fed up with the others and Green Party have a strong manifesto. We

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did meet voters for other parties, but we didn't see any of their

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activists. So keep an eye on Ramsgate. Nigel Farage might well

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run for Westminster from Ramsgate. Nigel Farage might well

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it is part of a fiercely fought European electoral region. If you

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only follow one constituency during this election I would recommend the

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south-east of England, not just because it is enormous, it stretches

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from Kent all the way up to Oxford, but also because it is going to be

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the scene of some serious political drama. Just how well has UKIP done

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and just how bad are things going to be for the Liberal Democrats.

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In this constituency back in 2009 the Tories won four seats. UKIP and

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the Liberal Democrats picked up two each, the greens and Labour one

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apiece. According to Newsnight analysis if things go well for the

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Tories they will hold three of these seats only losing one to UKIP. The

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Lib Dems will shed one seat and Labour will pick one up. If UKIP do

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better than expected you will see it here. They have around 30% chances

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of taking another Tory seat. If that happens UKIP will be on track to win

:05:59.:06:03.

the national vote share handsomely. That will overshadow Labour's

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expected gains and Lib Dem losses too. Still, don't read too much into

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today's election results. Past performance isn't always a good

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indicator of future performance. Next year at the general election

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the Lib Dems will have the benefit of some of their very small local

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strongholds and UKIP may struggle to keep a hold of some of its newer

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supporters. The same lesson applies to today's local elections too.

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Politics is perhaps more complicated than ice-cream. We will have to wait

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until Monday before the results of the European elections, but in less

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than an hour the results of the local elections will start coming

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in. And Emily our political editor will be watching them all from the

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BBC election hair election lair, where she is now? What's happening?

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After weeks of campaigning we where she is now? What's happening?

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finally slowly get the results in of the 161 councils in England, about

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finally slowly get the results in of 4,000 councillor, why are we looking

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finally slowly get the results in of so closely? Because of the points

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Chris was making. This is about direction of travel of all the

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parties in the lead-up, less than a year away to the general election.

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That is why there will be an year away to the general election.

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amount of scrutiny over these kinds of results. I have pulled up now the

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places that the Conservatives are defending end to, blue for the

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Tories. They have Swindon at the top, a majority of one, what does it

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mean, if you go inside it and look at the shape of it, they are in a

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race against Labour, if they lose one councillor it goes into no

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overall control. If Labour gain six councillors they will turn it red, a

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feather in the cap for Ed Miliband. Croydon, a similar story, a

:07:50.:07:54.

two-horse race, lots of demographic change in Croydon, more nonwhite

:07:55.:07:58.

British families here, perhaps Labour can take advantage of that

:07:59.:08:01.

and see that share of the vote coming through. Tamworth, quite an

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interesting one, this is somewhere we will be looking out for, a lot of

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parliamentary marginals in the west Midland, around Tamworth. What could

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happen here, Labour is fighting hard to gain three seats to end ten years

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of Tory rule. Those are the two main parties. Haven't mentioned the Lib

:08:18.:08:22.

Dems yet. Chris went into a lot of detail. You were in Kingston upon

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Thames there yesterday lawyer ruchings the picture there is --

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Laura, the picture is different there, the Lib Dems up against the

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Conservatives, Ed Davie may be worried his seat at parliamentary

:08:42.:08:44.

level next year. With all the fuss about UKIP, why haven't you got a

:08:45.:08:49.

giant purple button on the snazzy screen? There is no purple button

:08:50.:08:55.

that is because simply UKIP to date haven't gained an entire council. It

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was a point that Nigel Farage made to Jeremy on Monday, mathematically

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it is very hard for them to do so, almost impossible to do so outside

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London were they don't farewell. That doesn't mean they haven't been

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doing extraordinarily well in these sorts of elections to date. I will

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take you to Basildon in Essex, if we go inside there. This is somewhere

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where UKIP had 30% of the vote. They turned that into some seats on the

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coupity council. What will they do at Basildon council. We will look at

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that. And last the also the kind of place cities in the north, the big

:09:38.:09:42.

metropolitans, this is at the risk of sounding like Donald Rumsfeld, a

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known unknown. They are trying to stand in places where we don't know

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how well they will do and neither do they just yet.

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Plenty of numbers and hopefully some more big clues about what it all

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really means in the next 48 hours. Later in the programme we will

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debate what might be behind the prominence of that party, who needs

:10:03.:10:08.

a purple button? Before that the BBC has learned tonight that tomorrow

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the British geological society will confirm just how much oil and gas is

:10:14.:10:18.

waiting to be hydraulically fractured from under our feet. In

:10:19.:10:24.

the Weld, an area that includes thousands of acres of manicured Tory

:10:25.:10:30.

shires, in Sussex and Kent. It could be billions worth. But blasting it

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out from under the rocks is less than straight forward. Not least

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because it is hard to find that many people who want a hawed drawlic

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drilling -- high draw drawlic drilling -- hydrolic drill as their

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neighbour. In America it is very different, we have been to the

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fracking fields of the US and the heart of southern England.

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This is the Weld, a classic English landscape, you might not think of it

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as oil country. But between the villages of Cudford and Wisborough

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Green, there is a license to drill for exploratory oil in a local

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field. Before they can do anything they still need planning permission

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from West Sussex County Council. Right now the planning committee is

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deliberating over the decision, what they are only too keenly aware of is

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in Britain and particularly in parts of Britain like this, the opposition

:11:46.:11:51.

to gas exploration is passionate and intense.

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That's interesting, because in the US, where there is something like

:11:56.:12:03.

two million hydraulically fractured sites the atmosphere is different.

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Why is that? Last year I went to Louisiana in America's Deep South.

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This whole region is sitting on top of the shale rock, it is the gas

:12:17.:12:20.

from that shale that has made some of the farmers here millionaires

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overnight. Or as they are referred to here "shalionaires". There it is,

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it is $434,000. I don't think I have seen a figure as high as that? This

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man has made his fortune by selling drilling rights on his farm? We see

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something we want, we buy it. And he's not the only one, across the US

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the financial rewards for landowners are substantial. And the oil

:13:00.:13:04.

companies can pay for upgrades to local schools and roads. So the

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community can benefit. But also the country itself is large and sparsely

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populated, so the wells can disappear into the landscape. In

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England it is rural but densely populated as a village. Some of the

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local people have made their opposition to fracking clear. What

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is your expectation of what you will be confronted with? We will have

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four lorries an hour from the site into the village. It will disrupt

:13:38.:13:40.

the whole of the village lane. The another, the traffic, the

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disturbance to our wildlife and our environment. Would you put up with

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that? I don't think you would. I was keen to know whether money might

:13:50.:13:55.

make the difference? The guidelines are that a community gets 1% of

:13:56.:14:01.

revenue plus ?100,000? What price can you put on way of life. We have

:14:02.:14:06.

an idyllic village, so what price can you really put on that? We have

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probably all lost ?100,000 on the value of our houses at a stroke, so

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?100,000 to the village wouldn't even mend the road. I can imagine in

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some communities that amount of cash might be attractive? These things

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have a cost. If you are saying, you know, let's compensate against that,

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that means that they have a problem, they know there is a problem and

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they are going to try to buy you off. That is not the way we should

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work, that is bribery almost. So quite a contrast with what I found

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in America. Less than 20 miles down the road, there is a similar

:14:47.:14:50.

campaign opposing the local search for oil and gas, but not everyone is

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against it. I'm really interested to meet this one couple, the -- they

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are the one couple that have agreed to give permission for exploration

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on their land. They have agreed to speak to me. Carla was a parish

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councillor and her husband's family lived here for 200 years. They own

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170 acres of local land. You have done something surprising, you are a

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landowner who has allowed a company to have the application to drill

:15:29.:15:32.

underneath your land. Why did you do that? Because we thought there was

:15:33.:15:37.

no problem from our point of view to use our land for exploration and

:15:38.:15:42.

advancement. To find out what is there? To find out what is actually

:15:43.:15:46.

there. Because nobody knows for sure. So it was in the national

:15:47.:15:53.

interest to find it, because it is indigenous, it is here. We thought

:15:54.:15:57.

it would be of benefit to the community. So I guess the criticism

:15:58.:16:02.

that is often levelled at people like yourselves is you are in it for

:16:03.:16:06.

the money? I wish. We would be off to the bah Hama, never mind

:16:07.:16:11.

Australia if we were to have the money we were alleged to be get. It

:16:12.:16:14.

is a pleasant income, it is more than the market rate for letting

:16:15.:16:18.

agricultural land. So one of the things I find especially interesting

:16:19.:16:22.

is that you are actually kind of a pillar of the community, you are a

:16:23.:16:27.

central plank in the local parish community? No, were! Were! Before

:16:28.:16:36.

this happened we were the sort of household people go they will help

:16:37.:16:41.

us out. And we were always happy to. It has changed our lives forever. We

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hardly ever go out. I get to go to the supermarket, or the garden

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centre. Occasionally to the dentist. That's about it. I only spoke to

:16:54.:17:00.

them for an hour or so but Robin and Carla seem very different to the

:17:01.:17:03.

landowners I met in America, much more concerned about conservation

:17:04.:17:08.

and wider energy issues than money. But the situation in this village

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highlights another contrast between the UK and the US. Property law is

:17:12.:17:18.

different. American landowners can negotiate big pay-offs because they

:17:19.:17:23.

own what is beneath their land. That is not the case in the UK, where the

:17:24.:17:28.

Crown owns the gas and oil. And there is a further issue, fracking

:17:29.:17:33.

involves the neighbour's land too. The pipes snake out laterally away

:17:34.:17:38.

from the drilling site, underground for perhaps two miles. Is that Lyle?

:17:39.:17:44.

Ellen Stokes lectures in property law at Cardiff University. In a

:17:45.:17:50.

prospective drilling site a mile-and-a-half that way, they could

:17:51.:17:54.

come down and go laterally and end up underneath these people's

:17:55.:17:57.

sub-surface property. Are they allowed to do that? That would

:17:58.:18:01.

constitute an actionable trespass. We have a 2010 Supreme Court

:18:02.:18:07.

decision on this. That involved a diagonal drilling beneath somebody

:18:08.:18:10.

else's land for oil. In that case the court held that it did

:18:11.:18:16.

constitute an actionable trespass and ?1,000 in damage was awarded.

:18:17.:18:21.

Why so little? Because the landowner in that case hadn't suffered any

:18:22.:18:26.

consequences or physical loss and his use of the land wasn't disturbed

:18:27.:18:31.

or interfered with. Even without the multimillion dollar pay-offs in the

:18:32.:18:36.

US, could the lower level of money available here still be an

:18:37.:18:40.

incentive, particularly among the people of Fernhurst. We knocked on

:18:41.:18:49.

50 doors, given the sensitivity of the situation, even only a few would

:18:50.:18:56.

speak to us. I don't see why they have their backs up, I don't see

:18:57.:19:00.

long-term effects. I can see both sides of the argument, I can

:19:01.:19:07.

understand homeowners seeing how it can affect properties and just the

:19:08.:19:11.

general environment. A lot of the villagers have been saying about

:19:12.:19:13.

traffic coming through and all of that kind of thing. But there is the

:19:14.:19:21.

job prospects, maybe the revenue or whatever that it would bring in, so

:19:22.:19:29.

I'm kind of on the fence about it. Why is fracking more accepted in the

:19:30.:19:34.

US, it is less populated with big landowners and generous pay-offs,

:19:35.:19:39.

and better rewards for the local communities. Where as Britain is a

:19:40.:19:43.

land more densely populated, with different property laws, generating

:19:44.:19:48.

lower financial incentives. And far from embracing fracking, a recent

:19:49.:19:53.

poll conducted by YouGov suggests support in Britain is falling. You

:19:54.:19:58.

get the feeling something big will have to change before fracking takes

:19:59.:20:02.

off in the UK as it has in the States.

:20:03.:20:09.

With us are Andrew Austin, the chief executive of IGas, one of the

:20:10.:20:14.

companies who potentially hopes to make money out of fracking in this

:20:15.:20:19.

country. And Caroline Lucas the Green MP is with us this evening.

:20:20.:20:24.

Thank you, it looks like the Geological Survey will confirm there

:20:25.:20:26.

is potentionally billions of barrels of oil under the south-east of

:20:27.:20:31.

England. I know you haven't seen the details of the report, you must be

:20:32.:20:36.

delighted, a lot of potential there? We have known this across the

:20:37.:20:43.

country but particularly in terms of oil in the basin, the area that

:20:44.:20:47.

stretches from Winchester across to Gatwick up to the M 25 and down to

:20:48.:20:52.

the coast at Chichester. But there has been a lot of history of oil

:20:53.:20:58.

exploration in this area. We as a company produce oil and gas from

:20:59.:21:03.

around 20 sites across that area. Around 40 million barrels have been

:21:04.:21:07.

recovered to date across that area. You are already using conventional

:21:08.:21:12.

techniques to produce oil and gas in the south-east of England with

:21:13.:21:15.

people apparently hardly even noticing. Caroline Lucas, that

:21:16.:21:19.

doesn't sound so bad, what have you got to be afraid of? What no-one has

:21:20.:21:23.

talked about is the impact on climate change, it seems to be

:21:24.:21:27.

particularly perverse to be searching after yet more hard to

:21:28.:21:31.

reach fossil fuels when experts are telling us we need to leave 80% of

:21:32.:21:37.

known fossil fuels in the ground if we are to have any hope of

:21:38.:21:40.

preventing two degrees warming. We had the reports recently on climate

:21:41.:21:48.

change, saying the urge to shift energise is closer than ever. That

:21:49.:21:51.

is the direction we should be going in. There is a lot of urgency that

:21:52.:21:56.

millions of householders feel about getting their energy bills down.

:21:57.:22:00.

Businesses want their power costs to come down, in the US fracking has

:22:01.:22:07.

transformed that, gene plies prices falling through the floor. Lord

:22:08.:22:16.

Stern has called it baseless economic, here in the UK if we frack

:22:17.:22:20.

in the UK we don't use the gas or oil in the UK, it gets sold on

:22:21.:22:24.

European markets at the going price. That is different from the States,

:22:25.:22:27.

because it is a much bigger country and they are less locked into the

:22:28.:22:30.

bigger world market they use their own gas and oil as they frack it.

:22:31.:22:36.

Even the experts, even people in the forefront of the fracking ideology

:22:37.:22:39.

are saying, actually, it is not going to lead to higher prices. So

:22:40.:22:43.

if you want higher prices you need to go down the renewable route. What

:22:44.:22:51.

is the point? Let's try to separate out the two different issues that

:22:52.:22:55.

Caroline spoke about, she rightly spoke about both of them. Firstly in

:22:56.:23:00.

terms of climate change, if we are using renewables from my where, or

:23:01.:23:05.

oil and gas from anywhere we are better using it in a highly

:23:06.:23:10.

regulated market close to the place of consumption. So the cost of

:23:11.:23:15.

transporting oil and g in terms of the climate impact of doing that is

:23:16.:23:19.

very, very considerable. Secondly into that mix, if you are going to

:23:20.:23:23.

use any pots sill fuels you need to be using gas rather than coal goal

:23:24.:23:31.

is the enme in this occasion -- enemy in this occasion. I agree gas

:23:32.:23:41.

is better than coal but that is not the question we are confronting. The

:23:42.:23:45.

coal doesn't stay in the ground it gets sold somewhere else and the

:23:46.:23:48.

impact on climate is the same. We should be talking about the

:23:49.:23:51.

difference between a greener energy future, based on renewable energise,

:23:52.:23:57.

and energy efficiency, lots of jobs, lower fuel bills. It is right now

:23:58.:24:01.

people's bills are very high, right now we have to confront the issues

:24:02.:24:05.

and renewables only 4% in this country, don't we need the mix? Can

:24:06.:24:10.

I answer that one, it feels such an ironically that exactly that time

:24:11.:24:15.

when on shore wind is about to become more comparable with fossil

:24:16.:24:20.

fuels in terms of cost, at exactly that time the Government is issuing

:24:21.:24:26.

a moratorium on wind energy, because the main companies are terrified

:24:27.:24:31.

that it will take their place. Isn't it true that for all the reasons

:24:32.:24:35.

discussed in the film it is not going to happen here. People don't

:24:36.:24:38.

want it? There are different issues into this mix. I completely agree

:24:39.:24:43.

with Caroline in terms of the importance of climate change

:24:44.:24:47.

targets. The two degree target is imperative. Prior to this I was

:24:48.:24:53.

involved in the renewable industry, I ran a solar panel manufacturing

:24:54.:24:58.

industry in the United States. A built solar farms. I completely

:24:59.:25:02.

understand and embrace that agenda. If, however, into that mix, in the

:25:03.:25:07.

same way as has happened in the United States. Gas has sur planted

:25:08.:25:11.

coal. You will still need gas in the mix. If you are going to use gas at

:25:12.:25:16.

all you are better using it domestically. In terms of the price

:25:17.:25:23.

argument raised here. Two or he three shale gas sites across the

:25:24.:25:26.

country will not bring down the price of gas for retail consumer. If

:25:27.:25:30.

we have a material shale gas industry in this country, by which I

:25:31.:25:34.

mean around 100 sites across the country, a fraction of the space

:25:35.:25:40.

used for other particular land uses, including renewable energise, then

:25:41.:25:43.

we will start to get to a point where we can have a downward effect

:25:44.:25:48.

on prices. Until we have a material industry that won't happen. But the

:25:49.:25:52.

climate change gains in the meantime are more important. If you have a

:25:53.:25:56.

material industry based on shale you won't get your emissions down. We

:25:57.:26:06.

are out of time on a complicated issue, we look

:26:07.:26:09.

it turns out. It all seemed so easy, the west may

:26:10.:26:13.

never have put boots on the ground, but our finger prints were all over

:26:14.:26:19.

the overthrew of Colonel Gadaffi in 2011, David Cameron even joined his

:26:20.:26:23.

political friend, Nicolas Sarkozy, to take the applause of Libyan

:26:24.:26:28.

crowds. It was relatively quick, if not painless, but not a terrible war

:26:29.:26:33.

that dragged on for years. Maybe not for the west. In the last week

:26:34.:26:37.

around 80 people have been killed and one of Gadaffi's former generals

:26:38.:26:44.

leading an armed uprising says he will fight not talk. After his

:26:45.:26:48.

soldiers attacked the national parliament. The toppling of Muammar

:26:49.:27:01.

Gaddafi was billed by backers as a new type of arm's length

:27:02.:27:07.

intervention. Today I authorised the Armed Forces of the United States to

:27:08.:27:11.

begin a limited military action in Libya. America and its allies acted

:27:12.:27:18.

as the rebel air force, but no boots on the ground. But having empowered

:27:19.:27:30.

the revolutionary brigades, the west is now watching as they tear the

:27:31.:27:36.

country apart. Rival militias are lining up behind a general on one

:27:37.:27:38.

side and on the lining up behind a general on one

:27:39.:27:44.

Islamist-dominated parliament. On Sunday the general's supporters

:27:45.:27:47.

tried to disperse parliament, the National Congress. Even now it is

:27:48.:27:49.

scattered, but one National Congress. Even now it is

:27:50.:27:58.

this evening told us what happened. TRANSLATION: At 6. 30, after the

:27:59.:28:03.

parliament ended its session, and there were just a few of us in the

:28:04.:28:07.

chamber, a big group of armed vehicles arrived, with automatic

:28:08.:28:13.

weapons mounted on top. They started firing indiscriminately, nah a very

:28:14.:28:17.

fast way, then they started breaking into the building and going into the

:28:18.:28:21.

rooms inside. And they were looking for members of the Congress. 20

:28:22.:28:26.

civil servants and one member of the Congress were arrested.

:28:27.:28:29.

When we filmed the first anniversary of the revolution, we watched a the

:28:30.:28:35.

different rebel brigades take over the event. It was time to show off

:28:36.:28:39.

the heavy weaponry and face down rival units. They had refused to

:28:40.:28:45.

disband, and while attempts to form a regular army faltered, the

:28:46.:28:50.

brigade's power actually grew. There is no political settlement yet in

:28:51.:28:55.

Libya between the key tribes and other political forces, until there

:28:56.:29:00.

is a political settlement. Until the transition makes real progress and

:29:01.:29:03.

in two-and-a-half years it has made almost no progress. There isn't

:29:04.:29:07.

really be an effort to build up the regular forces. Serious attempts at

:29:08.:29:15.

demobilising Libya's militias were postponed until after new elections

:29:16.:29:19.

in June 2012. Far from resolving the country's problems, that vote set

:29:20.:29:23.

the scene for further conflict, between east and west, Islamists and

:29:24.:29:28.

secularists. In October 2013 the Prime Minister was briefly kidnapped

:29:29.:29:33.

by one of the armed groups. An ominous sign that gun law was taking

:29:34.:29:39.

over. Militias in the east tried to seize oil exports from September

:29:40.:29:43.

2013 on wards, refusing to recognise the Trippick Government. These same

:29:44.:29:49.

-- Tripoli Government, these same groups back the general. He has

:29:50.:29:53.

quickly built up power over the recent months. The head of the air

:29:54.:29:57.

force was dismissed for providing support to Haftar in April. Very

:29:58.:30:04.

quickly a lot of support has come from a number of quarters for him.

:30:05.:30:08.

There are suspicions, he has been back from overseas. The Dubai-based

:30:09.:30:16.

outlet has been extremely positive in reporting of him. We met the

:30:17.:30:21.

general during the revolution and interviewed him in Gaza. He had

:30:22.:30:26.

rumoured die Thais to the CIA, and during the war he was getting

:30:27.:30:33.

British and French help. Are you receiving practical help whether

:30:34.:30:40.

communications and weapons. We are still waiting. Now we have new

:30:41.:30:50.

reports that he has a new master. TRANSLATION: We believe he's

:30:51.:30:55.

supported by a number of Arab and non-Arab countries in many forms and

:30:56.:30:59.

shapes. We believe they are being sent weapons and jamming devices, we

:31:00.:31:03.

have intelligence that the equipment is reaching the forces in western

:31:04.:31:14.

Libya. Western intervention might have disposed of Gadaffi, but all

:31:15.:31:19.

sorts of forces, regional, tribunal and religious have filled the

:31:20.:31:23.

vacuum. The question is will they destroy a country where westerners

:31:24.:31:28.

still have major economic interests. One of France's most celebrated

:31:29.:31:36.

philosophers, and the man credited in 2011 with persuading Sarkeesian

:31:37.:31:44.

to -- Nicolas Sarkozy to recognise the rebel leaders which ultimately

:31:45.:31:50.

led to the intervention. Do you think Libya is a better place now

:31:51.:31:56.

that Colonel Gadaffi has been toppled. Since before then there was

:31:57.:32:01.

chaos on the ground? I think it is a better place, yes, of course. I'm

:32:02.:32:07.

not sure you can imagine how terrible and horrid was the

:32:08.:32:14.

dictatorship of Gadaffi. It was one of the worst of the last 40, 50

:32:15.:32:21.

years. For sure it is, it was good to topple him. It was right to

:32:22.:32:28.

topple him. It is true that it is not a valley of hundred, but who can

:32:29.:32:34.

give lessons to the Libyan people? Surely not us French? You say it is

:32:35.:32:42.

not of value of honey, but in fact 100 people have been killed since

:32:43.:32:47.

last Friday. There are kidnappings, militia's roaming the place, there

:32:48.:32:50.

have been three Prime Ministers since march and you are suggesting

:32:51.:32:57.

supporting another uprising. Do you know how many people are killed in

:32:58.:33:01.

Syria since three years because there was no intervention, because

:33:02.:33:07.

we did let Bashar Al-Assad commit his bloodbath. This is the real

:33:08.:33:14.

comparison. Of course that 80 people are dead yesterday, Thursday, it is

:33:15.:33:21.

heart-breaking and 80 sons of Libya, a camp of 17th of February, who I

:33:22.:33:25.

know so much killed, this is horrible. The real comparison is how

:33:26.:33:32.

many in Syria because of the nonintervention. What would have

:33:33.:33:36.

happened in Libya without intervention would probably have

:33:37.:33:39.

been the same as what is happening today in Syria.

:33:40.:33:43.

You are now as I understand it supporting the general, so are you

:33:44.:33:49.

just going to keep supporting other uprisings until you get the kind of

:33:50.:33:54.

Government you want? No, no, I don't support anybody, I support the

:33:55.:33:58.

Libyan people. I think that the Libyan people, citizens of the

:33:59.:34:05.

country, of Tripoli and other cities, paid such a high price for

:34:06.:34:12.

their freedom, and for toppling the dictator, that today they deserve

:34:13.:34:16.

peace. They deserve not to be killed, neither by the Islamists,

:34:17.:34:24.

nor by the general. The Libyan people have paid the price, now he

:34:25.:34:29.

deserves piece and freedom. That is what I think. Now what I think also

:34:30.:34:34.

is that if you see the French Revolution, for example, it took

:34:35.:34:40.

time and it took general Bonaparte to achieve finally democracy and

:34:41.:34:49.

freedom. So this is the terrible and tragic course of nearly all

:34:50.:34:52.

revolutions, this is what is happening in Libya and we Europeans

:34:53.:34:59.

we have not the right to give them lessons of good behaviour. It is

:35:00.:35:08.

never like this. You briefly did think you had the right to suggest

:35:09.:35:12.

to your friend, Nicolas Sarkozy, that France and Britain should

:35:13.:35:16.

intervene? I not only thought that France and Britain should intervene,

:35:17.:35:20.

I thought that the intervention should and had to go till the

:35:21.:35:28.

toppling of the dictator. Till the moments the Libyan people could be

:35:29.:35:35.

responsible for its own destiny. Nobody can deprive a people from its

:35:36.:35:43.

own destiny. All people of the world have the right to the side of their

:35:44.:35:49.

future, to decide on their future. It takes time and takes a terrible

:35:50.:35:54.

moment which the one that the Libyan people are facing. It is like this,

:35:55.:35:59.

all over the world, and I would hope that the forces of reason and peace

:36:00.:36:11.

would prevail in my dear Libya. McDonalds workers have probably

:36:12.:36:15.

always wanted to super-size their wage that is come withic that

:36:16.:36:19.

McJobs, it appears they have had enough of their meagre portions, at

:36:20.:36:24.

the food chain's Annual General Meeting shareholders approved the

:36:25.:36:31.

$9. 5 million pay packet. Outside at least 100 staff were arrested as

:36:32.:36:34.

they gathered to demand better wages. Right now some staff are paid

:36:35.:36:45.

not more than the cost of a big -- big Mac Meal per hour. For a second

:36:46.:36:54.

day fast food workers in Chicago marched, these cleaners, cooks and

:36:55.:36:59.

till staff had a simple message for their bosses over the road.

:37:00.:37:07.

till staff had a simple message for McDonalds' employees in the US earn

:37:08.:37:12.

as little as ?5 an hour, or $8. They want at least $15. Fuelling a

:37:13.:37:16.

national debate about pay and equality, when many Americans are

:37:17.:37:22.

struggling to make ends meet. In the hall opposite the McDonald's chief

:37:23.:37:28.

executive had his $#. 5 million pay packet approved with barely a

:37:29.:37:36.

whisker, 94% of shareholders voted with him. It is an outrage, I stood

:37:37.:37:41.

with the fast food workers this morning, who understand they have to

:37:42.:37:44.

keep pressing the organisation to respond to their demand. While they

:37:45.:37:49.

confirm the pay right for the CEO, there has been no response

:37:50.:37:52.

whatsoever to the fact that people are working harder and harder. This

:37:53.:37:56.

corporation is earning record profits, it makes different

:37:57.:38:04.

decisions around the globe. Mary Kay was one of a hundred arrested

:38:05.:38:07.

yesterday at another march to was one of a hundred arrested

:38:08.:38:10.

corporate headquarters. Since the recession has ended lower-wage jobs

:38:11.:38:16.

have grown three-times faster than jobs that pay that $15 mark.

:38:17.:38:24.

McDonald's won't reveal what it is paying the average employee other

:38:25.:38:27.

than it meets minimum wage requirements. America's national

:38:28.:38:33.

minimum wage is $7. 25 an hour, and has been since 2009. President Obama

:38:34.:38:42.

wants to raise it to $10. 10, a move blocked from Congress, still a long

:38:43.:38:47.

way for the dollar 15 an hour the workers are marching for. This is

:38:48.:38:54.

not just a fast food phenomenon, last week all over this there were

:38:55.:39:00.

protests about low pay and working conditions. Populist pushes for a

:39:01.:39:07.

higher wage floor. Whether the US or Switzerland or Germany in its own

:39:08.:39:11.

way, you are seeing mature economies, affluent societies where

:39:12.:39:15.

a large swathe of working people have missed out you see on economic

:39:16.:39:19.

growth before the crisis and have done badly since then. You are

:39:20.:39:23.

thinking trade unions of looking for a way to be relevant to the whole

:39:24.:39:27.

debate on pay and the minimum wage is what they are latching on to.

:39:28.:39:30.

That is part of the reason you are seeing the upsurge in radicalism.

:39:31.:39:39.

McDonald's insists it pay as competitive amount, giving

:39:40.:39:41.

youngsters the chance to move up. Many on the right of the debate

:39:42.:39:45.

claim a significant hike in the minimum wage will cost jobs. I have

:39:46.:39:49.

a huge amount of people who want to raise the minimum wage, they have

:39:50.:39:53.

the right idea what the problem is. The problem is low pay, the wrong

:39:54.:39:58.

idea is the solution they have. Raising the minimum wage creating

:39:59.:40:02.

unemployment and over the long-term reducing the rate on new jobs

:40:03.:40:06.

created. I think unemployment is reducing the rate on new jobs

:40:07.:40:12.

worst evil here. For workers surviving on $8 an hour it might not

:40:13.:40:18.

mean much. Protestors in the US have made headlines this week, whether

:40:19.:40:22.

the executives and politicians are really listening is another matter.

:40:23.:40:30.

Whatever the exact results of the local and European elections held

:40:31.:40:33.

today, one thing is for certain, UKIP has dominated the lead-up to

:40:34.:40:37.

voting. What is less certain is why. Why does the apparent pop all right

:40:38.:40:41.

of the party, what does it say about modern Britain and the issues that

:40:42.:40:46.

matter to the Great British public. I'm joined by the author Bonnie

:40:47.:40:52.

Greer, the chief political commentator in the Telegraph and

:40:53.:40:57.

Independent columnist. Why do you think this has happened this time

:40:58.:41:02.

round? It says something very profound about our politics. For the

:41:03.:41:09.

last ten years we have had all these ernest groups, Helena Kennedy and

:41:10.:41:15.

others saying why are the British people apathetic about politics.

:41:16.:41:18.

Actually the answer has been, which is beyond all these grand and the

:41:19.:41:25.

good is that she and the politicians are apathetic about the British

:41:26.:41:29.

people. They have tried to deny politicalies course to the British

:41:30.:41:34.

people, we have been in a post democratic political environment. If

:41:35.:41:38.

you go back 20 years any discussion of public spending suggesting it

:41:39.:41:42.

might fall or will stay the same was treated by the BBC which has been

:41:43.:41:46.

one of the greatest criminals in all of this as some form of crime

:41:47.:41:50.

against humanity. If you try to discuss immigration, which you

:41:51.:41:54.

weren't allowed to do on the BBC, that would be regarded, I'm sorry it

:41:55.:42:00.

has been acknowledged even by your boss. They are shaking their heads.

:42:01.:42:05.

Any discussion about immigration was treated as a form of racism. Any

:42:06.:42:12.

discussion about Europe was treated as a form of zenophobia, in other

:42:13.:42:18.

words public debate was there. At the same time there was a conspiracy

:42:19.:42:23.

between the three main parties to deprive access to democracy, to the

:42:24.:42:28.

vast majority of voters. The point there I believe Pete certificate

:42:29.:42:32.

trying to make. Thank you for telling what I'm saying. There is

:42:33.:42:36.

something wrong with people not being interested in them and the

:42:37.:42:38.

elite rather than the other way around? This has gone far enough,

:42:39.:42:42.

this has been the Tory of the elections and will continue -- the

:42:43.:42:46.

story of the elections and will continue to be next year. I think

:42:47.:42:49.

there are too many people in this country who got the idea that all

:42:50.:42:53.

their own personal obsessions and I'm not talking about the truly

:42:54.:42:57.

dispossessed, the people truly suffering in all the restructuring

:42:58.:43:00.

that has happened. I'm talking about people who think if I can't get my

:43:01.:43:06.

way, all politicians are crap. I mean am I allowed to say that. You

:43:07.:43:12.

just said it let's not worry about it? Apologies, this idea that

:43:13.:43:17.

democracy has to sustain all my prejudices and what each of us wants

:43:18.:43:23.

is the problem. Has that changed Bonnie, this is a different swathe

:43:24.:43:26.

and level of support for this kind of party this time round, it is new

:43:27.:43:32.

isn't it? It is the UK's tea party moment, the United States got it in

:43:33.:43:39.

2007. As a result, and Peter is right to a tiny extent, of a kind of

:43:40.:43:44.

consensus. That's in the media, that's in the political class, and

:43:45.:43:49.

so you have this other group that gets born in the shadows, and all it

:43:50.:43:54.

needs is a kick-start and this has happened here. This is the United

:43:55.:44:00.

Kingdom's tea heart. And it has all the -- tea party. It has all the

:44:01.:44:05.

hallmarks of it. What is wrong with that? There is nothing wrong. It as

:44:06.:44:08.

movement, it is not a political party. This party is a flag of

:44:09.:44:14.

convience for a lot of people who are deeply ditties gruntled about

:44:15.:44:19.

probe -- deeply disgruntled about progress. It is true going back to

:44:20.:44:24.

what was said about the BBC. Let's not talk too much about the BBC? My

:44:25.:44:36.

point is that the politics has become home midgeised, and within

:44:37.:44:39.

that are various groups on the right and far right taking advantage. I

:44:40.:44:44.

would like to go back to Peter first? I think something horrible

:44:45.:44:50.

happened to British politics, Labour, Liberal Democrats and the

:44:51.:44:54.

Tories were captured by the modernising movement, which met a

:44:55.:44:59.

group of experts, this man Axel Rod, worshipped by my colleagues in the

:45:00.:45:03.

lobby is an example. They don't come from activists, they are experts.

:45:04.:45:08.

What they decided was that 95% of British voters didn't matter. If you

:45:09.:45:14.

voted in a safe seat, if you were a Glasgow ship worker who was out of a

:45:15.:45:19.

job in Glasgow that was a safe Labour seat. Excuse me if you were a

:45:20.:45:26.

Lieutenant Colonel in Tonbrige wells you didn't cut it. If you were a

:45:27.:45:30.

swing voters in a marginal seat constructed around you. Politicians

:45:31.:45:34.

have always been there? This has always been there. That is the

:45:35.:45:41.

revolt. Of the 95%. I do not recognise the country the politics

:45:42.:45:46.

that Peter is decribing, I think what changed was the Internet, the

:45:47.:45:50.

idea that we could complain about and feel dissatisfied about almost

:45:51.:45:56.

everything. Now, I think we do have an enviable democracy, and you know,

:45:57.:46:01.

I hate it that the entire political system is being dumbed down by

:46:02.:46:06.

people like him and creating this mess. To end this, we are in a new

:46:07.:46:11.

age, they are an age of technology, we are moving faster than our

:46:12.:46:15.

political establishment, faster than the journalist, and they, who

:46:16.:46:20.

actually are the ones who have consolidated politics, need to wake

:46:21.:46:23.

up to what people are saying on the left, right and centre, and people

:46:24.:46:27.

who have no political point at all. It is moving faster than they

:46:28.:46:33.

understand. Perhaps none of us can understand what is happening in the

:46:34.:46:37.

country Except he's wrong! That's enough. You can follow all the

:46:38.:46:40.

election excitement throughout much of the night on BBC One and the BBC

:46:41.:46:46.

News channel. While it might not translate into high turnout, these

:46:47.:46:50.

campaigns certainly have not been dull this time round we can safely

:46:51.:46:55.

say that. One event didn't quite work out as planned. That was UKIP's

:46:56.:47:02.

attempt at a corn carnival in Croydon. It was to demonstrate the

:47:03.:47:08.

multicultural credential, but the steel band decided to pick up their

:47:09.:47:11.

instruments when they found out who asked them to play. We thought it

:47:12.:47:16.

was such a shame to get politics in the way of music, here on the

:47:17.:47:26.

results day eve here they are, the endurance steel orchestra with their

:47:27.:47:29.

version of Daft Punk Get lucky. Good evening, it was going to be

:47:30.:47:42.

Wales and more western parts of England that get the heaviest of the

:47:43.:47:46.

rain tomorrow morning. Further north I

:47:47.:47:54.

Northern Ireland in the afternoon might struggle to get into double

:47:55.:48:07.

Northern Ireland in the afternoon figures where... . (steel band)

:48:08.:48:08.