23/05/2014 Newsnight


23/05/2014

The latest on the local elections, an interview with ex-US treasury secretary Tim Geithner, Conchita Wurst live and did Thomas Piketty get his data wrong?


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They ignored him, they dismissed him and taked him, it didn't work . What

:00:00.:00:15.

will the established parties try next to stop the relentless rise of

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UKIP. Obama's Treasury Secretary said he had to bail out the bankers

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to save the world. He was the Sheriff and he tells us he was

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dealing with a bunch of cowboys. We had a wild west financial system.

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There were a lot of mistakes in oversight and risk management and a

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lot of imprudence, absolutely. She became the poster girl for a more

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modern, tolerant, inclusive Europe when she won Eurovision. Why are so

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many voters about to vote for parties that are none of the above.

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We will ask her tonight what she makes of that.

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Nigel Farage promised a political earthquake in the local and European

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elections, we won't know the euro results until Monday night. UKIP

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certainly caused enough tremors to shake the other parties. We have the

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headlines. Let me give you the big picture of

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what happened today, because this is arguably the day that England went

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into a four-party political system. If I go into the kind of councils

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that the stories were defending tonight and I update it with these

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results you can see what has happened. West Lancashire has gone

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into no overall control. Amber Valley will be a particular feather

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in the cap, tight low-fought at a Westminster parliamentary level. It

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is old mining country in Derbyshire. These are the councils Labour was

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defending, I will update you and show you what will happen, Great

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Yarmouth has gone into no overall control. This is why, UKIP picking

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up ten seats on the council here which snatched it out of Labour's

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hands. What about the Lib Dem, they have had a pretty rough night. If I

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update this they have lost a quarter of their councils tonight, just

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eight up. Kingston upon Thames has gone to their partners in

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Government, the Conservatives. Portsmouth has gone into no overall

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control. We don't have a button for UKIP because they haven't got a

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council, it is mathematically impossible for them to do it. If I

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compare the kind of places where they have been doing well tonight,

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they are pretty much all over the country. All over England, that is.

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In Portsmouth they were fighting the Lib Dems, they have gained six seats

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on the council there. In Rotherham they were fighting Labour, up ten

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seats there. They were fighting the Tories in Basildon and Essex, up 11

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seats there, an extraordinary night for this party who have really come

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of age. They call thselves the fox in the Westminster chickens. Let's

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see how long the fox lasts and where it goes now. The Tories didn't do

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well yesterday, but David Cameron's usual party critics have remained

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untypically silent. Labour didn't do at all badly and in London did much

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better than expected. But Ed Miliband's critics have been

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anything but silent. Maybe because there was a number of seats Labour

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has to win to form the next Government where its performance

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ranged from lacklustre to poor, and one common theme links the Tories

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and Labour was the disruptive influence UKIP had on their fortunes

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across England. We have been to the old Middle

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England railway town of Swindon, this report contains flash

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photography. Pushing, pulling, disrupting,

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contorting, changing the contours of the political map. UKIP hasn't won

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councils outright anywhere. But Mr Farrage is squeezing votes, almost

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everywhere. T conversations going on last night, one in Westminster going

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amongst the commentators and Tory MPs who still see it as the old

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left-right divide, and the other conversation was goes on in Swindon.

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The traditional conversation that UKIP only takes from the Tories was

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disproved here. But UKIP only takes from the Tories, right? Wrong, here

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in Swindon and dispondent Labour, whose leader in this town Ed

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Miliband forgot, failed to take the council. The kind they desperately

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need. We lost votes to UKIP in the target seats, and that's cost us. A

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depressing picture for Labour, because Swindon's the kind of seat

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that's tight when general elections come round, where, in a normal

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political cycle Ed Miliband should be well ahead. What do you think

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about Ed Miliband though, he came here earlier in the week? You are

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making a terrible face? Not great deal. He's not a leader. He's not a

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leader? Normally we vote Labour, he's not the best man for the job.

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He's not the best man for the job? They should have picked his brother.

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What did you vote yesterday? Conservative? Why? It is better the

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devil you know, you have to give people time to sort the country out.

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Yeah. If we keep swapping and changing you have to start from the

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beginning again. UKIP seem to be willing to tell the truth straight

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up. People had questions, especially Nigel Farage, he answered the

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questions in a way that makes you feel you are getting the answers you

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want, he's not lying to you. Labour only needed one net gain here to

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knock out the Tories, but with thousands of votes peeling away to

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UKIP it didn't happen. The party did gain seats around the country, but

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nothing like the number needed to look solidly and credibly like they

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might win next year. Labour did grab councils from the Tories in London

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and were top in some target seats. But a shaky national first place is

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not enough to top this. The strategists at the top of the party

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called it wrong, we should have taken the fight to UKIP from the

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beginning and we never did. We have not done as well as we should have

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done in both the presentation of our policies and the organisation. I

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lost count the number of people canvassing over the last, especially

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the last two or three days that said you will need a big kicking. Even

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hints from Labour's top table they were too late to catch on. People

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want tougher controls in immigration and reform in Europe, we have been

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making those arguments in this election. We have to do so more

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loudly over the next year. But for the leader, who has been in politics

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man and boy, it is nothing to do with him or his campaign, but

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something that has been brewing for years. I think in some parts of the

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country we have had discontent building up for decades about the

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way the country has been run, and about the way our economy works. And

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people feeling that the country just doesn't work for them. What you are

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seeing is some parts of the country is people turning to UKIP has an

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expression of that discontent. The prize for the saddest faces of these

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elections though must go to the Lib Dems. Wiped out in some cities,

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losing all their councillors in Manchester. The Greens taking their

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place as the official opposition in Liverpool. Losing overall more than

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a third of their grassroots base. But Nick Clegg also appears to

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believe it is not really mainstream politicians' fault. It is just that

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what they have done has made voters grumpy. I certainly accept that

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there is a very strong anti-politics mood around, by the way not only in

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our country but in many other parts of Europe as well. I think we will

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see that in the European elections in the days to come. Of course also

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being part of a Government that has had to take extraordinarily

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difficult and sometimes down right unpopular decisions over the past

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four years, to get the economy back on track. But here is the curious

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thing, no, not Nigel Farage having a beer and a fag, that seems to happen

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almost whenever there is a camera around. But today's numbers point to

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him having a smaller share of the national vote than at last year's

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council elections. But he's so emboldened by his gains in places

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like Essex, finally Farrage has vowed he will try his luck as an MP.

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I haven't done a lot, just bought a pint of beer, there we are! What

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won't be on offer to UKIP is a deal with those people he doesn't call

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Conservative. Governing parties normally take a hammering in local

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elections and David Cameron's party did lose councils, but the

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performance was lacklustre, not disastrous. Yet listen closely,

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there is no dismissing UKIP's support any more. Now he shares

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their pain. We have got to work harder and really deliver, on issues

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that are frustrating people and frustrating me like welfare reform

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and immigration and making sure people really benefit from this

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recovery. We will be working flat out to demonstrate that we do have

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the answers to help hard working people. But it is not clear those

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hard working people, or anyone else busy getting on with the day-to-day

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even wants to be persuaded. UKIP's performance is more a tremor than

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the promised earthquake, but in towns like Swindon they know they

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had a tangible effect. There is too much of this towing the party line.

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There is too much of being what they think is right rather than being

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right. We get being told we are wrong for saying what people think.

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Why wouldn't you, it is not racist or anything, it is what people

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think. UKIP hasn't won the election, but in a sense no-one really has,

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they have been pretty dismal for all the main parties. If anything is

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victorious it is perhaps the argument that the current crop of

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Westminster politicians doesn't connect let alone convince people in

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the rest of the country. Sunday's results of the European elections

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could see UKIP squeeze into first place. But voters are yet to answer

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if our politics are permanently bent out of shape. She looked like Mary

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Poppins and came straight back to the studio! How are the three main

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parties going to react to UKIP? All of their performances have gone

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pretty soggy, we need to keep it in perfective, the way their votes

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added up had a tangible effect in Swindon and others. The Lib Dems for

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them it is really a question of grin and bear it, they don't really have

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much choice. I think they are quite resolved on that. For the

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Conservatives, interestingly, the newer by-election is coming at us

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thick and fast, that is next week, although there are a couple of

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noises off tonight, broadly speaking their discipline seems to be

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holding. And David Cameron is already responding quite far in

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policy terms to the threat from UKIP, whether on welfare, tougher

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language on immigration or that referendum promise. What is

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happening, it is toughest, and we are seeing toughest already for

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Labour. Partly because some of the private anxieties about how to deal

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with UKIP, which have been there, have already spilt out into public.

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You heard Ed Balls clearly saying they have to be stronger on

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immigration, and Tessa Jowell, that very loyal Labour figure, and very

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well known said this afternoon that Ed Miliband was absolutely not on

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top of the bill from the checkout. A rather pointed remark at how he

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handled the campaign in the last few weeks. For Labour this is

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potentially a very dangerous moment. Ed Miliband is nowhere near the kind

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of comfortable level he needs to be at, above 35% in order really to be

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looking like somebody who could be walking through the steps of Number

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Ten next year. Let's discuss the state of the

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politics after these elections with Jeremy Hunt for the Conservatives,

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and Chuka Umunna for Labour. Welcome both of you let me come to you first

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Jeremy. The Tories haven't been quite scrutinised yet, let's look at

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the result, you need to increase your share of the vote from the 36%

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you got in 2010 to win in 2015, but you are falling back, your national

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share of the vote projected yesterday was under 30%, and there

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is only a year to go? Well actually I don't agree with that. Of course

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you are comparing it to what happened at the last election and

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since then we have had to take some very difficult decisions to deal

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with the deficit that we have inherited in many other areas. If

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you look at the recent trends, things have been moving much more in

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our direction. We got a higher share of the vote than a year ago. The

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polls have been closing. But you got a lower share of the vote than you

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got in 2010. To win the election next year you need a higher share

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you are going in the wrong direction? But this is what

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Conservative Governments do. We take difficult decisions at the start of

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a parliament, the decisions that are necessary in the long-term interests

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of the country. And those decisions are often not popular, but then as

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it gets closer to an election people start to see the fruits of those

:13:51.:13:55.

decisions. Why is it that gap has been closing. It is important, there

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is a lot of talk about the politics and strategyising, but we have one.

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Five million people who have jobs who didn't have jobs at the last

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election. They and their families are seeing their children going to

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academies and free schools, the standards are getting better, more

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doctors and nurses in the hospitals. The facts on the ground are

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changing, that is making it very difficult for Labour to put together

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their argument because they opposed so many of those changes. They may

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be changing but you only got 29% of the vote. Chuka Umunna, Labour's

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position, after four years of austerity, a flat-lining economy

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according to Ed Miliband, and you have only added two percentage

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points since 2010, the worst result in living memory? I thought we had a

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good set of results over the last 24 hours. 31%? Let me finish. On top of

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the councillors we had in 2010 we have 270-odd. Importantly we have

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got the biggest share of the vote in the areas boundaries to some of the

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key marginal seats, Carlyle, and in the south which importantly we need

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to be winning back support in, Ipswich, Hastings. You are only two

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percentage points ahead of the Tories, nationally. Of course we

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have to remember that most, many of the seats if you look at London, for

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example, that were contested yesterday were ones which were

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boosted by the turnout in 2010. These were kind of Labour areas. So

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you wouldn't expect to see quite the same performance in these seats. Let

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me say something that I think is very interesting about London.

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Because what Jeremy talked about is as people see the results on the

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ground. For example, growth. You will begin to see the pick-up in the

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Tory support. Now we know that 75% of the new jobs since 2010 have been

:15:44.:15:46.

created in London and the south-east. But you saw things in

:15:47.:15:49.

London, like, for example, the Tories losing their flagship

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council, Hammersmith and Fulham, the Prime Minister's favourite council

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falling to Labour. You have a London problem, you don't resonate with the

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young urban, and you don't resonate with ethnic minorities and you do

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badly in the capital? Let's look at London and the south-east, you have

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got southern seats, some of the less southern affluent areas that Labour

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need to win in like Thurrock, Gloucester and Worcester, where

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actually they did disappointingly badly. I asked you about the Tories

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in London not Labour in the south-east? Hammersmith and Fulham

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is a Labour-held seat, if Labour want to win the elections they need

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to win marginal seats, that is not what Hammersmith is. It is a bad

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example. Why are you doing badly in London? The truth is better doing

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better in London and better across the country. You are losing the

:16:44.:16:48.

affluent suburbs and the inner cities? Look at the areas that

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Labour need to win. They need to win councils like Plymouth, Swindon,

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they need to win places like Tamworth. What about Lancashire. It

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is not a geography lesson here, you can threw names at each other. There

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is a very important point, no opposition party has ever won a

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general election without being the biggest party in local Government.

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We are going to be the biggest party in local Government. That's fine.

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And we a growing in our support. History is not great lesson here, we

:17:19.:17:22.

are now a four-party system. You only have one seat in Scotland, no

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seats in the single major northern city and you are now losing out in

:17:28.:17:31.

the suburbs and the inner cities of the capital, you are not even a

:17:32.:17:35.

National Party any more? I totally disagree with that, look at Pendel

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in Lancashire and the key battle grounds of the Midlands, places like

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Tamworth. Birmingham edge basten to, Birmingham Northfield, where we won

:17:46.:17:49.

seats off Labour if there was a general election today. We are

:17:50.:17:52.

actually doing extremely well. It is very, very tough. We have to

:17:53.:17:55.

understand after the difficult decisions we have taken over the

:17:56.:17:58.

last three years that it is not going to be a popularity contest at

:17:59.:18:02.

this stage. But in the end, in the end, what the British people are

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looking for is substance. That is Moy point, it is very -- my point,

:18:07.:18:10.

it is very important the substance on the ground is a growing economy,

:18:11.:18:14.

better schools and hospitals. Let me put a point to you. Your cost of

:18:15.:18:20.

living Crisis Line, it isn't really working is it? It is not really

:18:21.:18:24.

cutting through, retail sales are soaring. Consumer confidence is at

:18:25.:18:32.

its highest level since 1978, if there was cost of living crisis none

:18:33.:18:38.

that have would be true? If you asked most people do they feel more

:18:39.:18:45.

well off or if they are not facing a squeeze. They are absolutely facing

:18:46.:18:49.

a squeeze on their living standards. There is parts of the country where

:18:50.:18:54.

there is an imbalanced recovery, 54% of GDP growth has come from London

:18:55.:18:58.

and the south-east. If you go to the south west and the north-east they

:18:59.:19:02.

don't recognise the picture. You can have the data argument, but if you

:19:03.:19:05.

look at the situations many people are facing they don't feel a hell of

:19:06.:19:08.

a lot better off now. Overall you wouldn't get the rise in retail

:19:09.:19:12.

sales if the whole country was in a cost of living crisis? The question

:19:13.:19:16.

is how do people feel, how is that translating. They are showing how

:19:17.:19:21.

they feel spending in the shots? The point is people are learning ?1,600

:19:22.:19:26.

less than in 2010. On election day it was revealed that net immigration

:19:27.:19:34.

last year rose by 50,000 to 212,000, you promised it would fall below

:19:35.:19:38.

100,000 by-election day. That is clearly not going to happen. Doesn't

:19:39.:19:43.

that broken promise by a mainstream party explain why UKIP are doing so

:19:44.:19:48.

well? We are frustrated it is taking so long to deal with the immigration

:19:49.:19:51.

level. We have it down a third from the peak levels in 2005. One of the

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reasons it is rising is we happen to be one of the most successful

:19:58.:20:00.

economies in the Europe and we're tracting people from other --

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attracting people from other European countries. We are dealing

:20:04.:20:07.

with the issues by making sure that people who should be paying for

:20:08.:20:10.

their NHS care are properly paying for it and making sure people can't

:20:11.:20:15.

claim benefits unfairly. It is important to say we recognise there

:20:16.:20:21.

is frustration that people feel. Teresa May is a successful and tough

:20:22.:20:25.

Home Secretary, I wouldn't want to bet against her delivering on

:20:26.:20:29.

targets. I would bet against her and bet with you it won't happen.

:20:30.:20:32.

The great financial crash of our age was six years ago, we are living

:20:33.:20:36.

with its conscupss. The banks got bailed out with public money, but

:20:37.:20:41.

millions of tax-payers were held below the water line.

:20:42.:20:46.

A New York bank regulator suddenly found it was his job to save the

:20:47.:20:51.

world. He has written a book called Stress Test, about it. He took the

:20:52.:20:57.

job as US Treasury Secretary, some what reluctantly, and saw the

:20:58.:21:03.

biggest banking bail out in history. He South Africans not just shaping

:21:04.:21:07.

economic policy and managing financial markets, he has an

:21:08.:21:12.

unparalleled understanding of the current economic crisis in all of

:21:13.:21:23.

its depth, complexity and urgency. Timothy Geigtner spent a year

:21:24.:21:32.

fighting crises, he earned a name as the "go-to man" in difficulties. The

:21:33.:21:37.

financial markets across the globe are in turmoil. He was head of the

:21:38.:21:42.

New York fed when the roof fell in six years ago, he was complicit in

:21:43.:21:46.

the decision not to bail out Lehman Brothers, which many have blamed for

:21:47.:21:50.

making the financial crisis worse. President Obama made him Treasury

:21:51.:21:54.

Secretary when he won the White House in 2008. By his own admission

:21:55.:21:58.

even he wasn't sure he was the right man to take the helm of an economy

:21:59.:22:02.

on the brink of a financial meltdown. Within weeks of taking the

:22:03.:22:08.

job he oversaw the second wave of bail outs, another $350 billion. He

:22:09.:22:15.

was criticised for being too close to Wall Street, and for going easy

:22:16.:22:21.

on the bankers, though he wasn't one himself. When he stood down last

:22:22.:22:25.

year, some gave him credit for saving the day. Others complained he

:22:26.:22:30.

bailed out the bankers who caused the crisis, while leaving as

:22:31.:22:34.

casualties ordinary householders under water and drowning. When I

:22:35.:22:37.

spoke to him in New York this afternoon, I asked him why nobody

:22:38.:22:42.

had ever been held culpable for the crash. There were a lot of causes

:22:43.:22:46.

for the crisis, a lot of regulatory failure, a lot of bad behaviour, a

:22:47.:22:51.

lot of predatory lending, some pretty badly designed rules. We had

:22:52.:22:55.

a kind of wild west financial system. You had a ring side seat at

:22:56.:23:02.

the wild west, why didn't you see it coming? I talked openly about what

:23:03.:23:08.

we saw and missed, I tried to point out during the years of the boom

:23:09.:23:12.

what we were seeing in the United States which was a set of

:23:13.:23:15.

vunerabilities, classic vunerabilities you see preceding

:23:16.:23:19.

financial crises. What happened in the United States is we had a system

:23:20.:23:23.

where finance outgrew the protections we put in place after

:23:24.:23:27.

the Great Depression. Alongside the banking system we had this diverse

:23:28.:23:32.

mix of shadow banks, non-banks, risky forms of finance that had no

:23:33.:23:37.

constraints on risk and no protection against runs and panic.

:23:38.:23:42.

That is what made the crises not so hard to anticipate, but so hard to

:23:43.:23:45.

pre-empt and manage when the panic started. You argue that the banks

:23:46.:23:51.

had to be bailed out to avoid a financial meltdown, I understand

:23:52.:23:55.

that. Once they had been bailed out, why were the bankers responsible not

:23:56.:24:02.

then held accountable? What we did in the United States it is a

:24:03.:24:05.

different strategy than adopted not just in the Great Depression but

:24:06.:24:08.

most countries around the world in the crisis. We forced a lot of

:24:09.:24:13.

restructuring in our system, and we recapitalised it very aggressively

:24:14.:24:16.

and dramatically, we thought that was the best way to make sure the

:24:17.:24:19.

economy will benefit from the oxygen you need to grow as you come out of

:24:20.:24:24.

this thing. Then we moved very quickly to put in place a

:24:25.:24:27.

dramatically reformed set of constraints on risk, much more

:24:28.:24:32.

modern and sophisticated and design set of risks, passed those

:24:33.:24:39.

remarkably quickly. And we tried to defend the foundation for a tougher

:24:40.:24:42.

enforcement response. Most people look at the scale of the enforcement

:24:43.:24:46.

response to date and it is now changing, and said they don't feel

:24:47.:24:50.

it was adequate given the level of pain. I understand it, that is in

:24:51.:24:54.

some ways a measure of the fact that we allowed a system to grow up

:24:55.:24:58.

without a well designed set of rules and we are trying to fix that. What

:24:59.:25:04.

would have been wrong with a bit of Old Testament vengence? Nothing,

:25:05.:25:08.

that is what prosecutors across the country have gone trying to do in

:25:09.:25:11.

their careful way. I tried to explain in the face of a panic, with

:25:12.:25:15.

the type of Great Depression like damage that was ahead of us at that

:25:16.:25:20.

point. You first have to make sure you land the plane safely so you

:25:21.:25:24.

protect many innocents from the risk of mass unemployment. You bailed out

:25:25.:25:29.

the bankers and the banks that caused the crash, but you refused to

:25:30.:25:34.

bail out the homeowners who were the casualties, why? That is a deep

:25:35.:25:40.

misperception. Think about what happens in financial panics. To

:25:41.:25:45.

protect people from the catastrophe of mass unemployment, huge loss of

:25:46.:25:50.

wealth, business failure, mass foreclosure, you have to do

:25:51.:25:52.

everything necessary, and this is the first obligation to prevent

:25:53.:25:56.

collapse of the financial system. It is like the power grid, if you let

:25:57.:26:01.

the lights go out nothing is possible. We did it not because we

:26:02.:26:06.

had any interest or desire to protect the banks from their

:26:07.:26:10.

mistakes, and we did have a lot of failure. As we learned from the

:26:11.:26:14.

Great Depression and the crises that Folaued, you first had to do that if

:26:15.:26:21.

you had any hope of reducing risk to victims. The US economy hasn't

:26:22.:26:26.

pepped up that much, it is still a pretty anaemic recovery? The thing

:26:27.:26:33.

about crises, after the trauma and the imbalances of the boom, as you

:26:34.:26:36.

come out of it, as you bring down debt, as people save more, as you

:26:37.:26:41.

work through the big overinvestment in housing, as you bring down

:26:42.:26:46.

leverage, that makes growth slower, it is inescapably, it is partly why

:26:47.:26:51.

you need to have a lot of sustained fiscal support as you come out of a

:26:52.:26:57.

crisis. We had two additional head winds, prep mature and -- pram prep

:26:58.:27:08.

mature, and we had a few shocks. The British economy is now growing

:27:09.:27:13.

faster than the American economy and creating a lot more jobs relative to

:27:14.:27:17.

the American economy, why do you think that is? Because of the

:27:18.:27:20.

strategy we adopted, we got our economy growing again very quickly,

:27:21.:27:24.

and if you look at the pace of growth in the United States and how

:27:25.:27:28.

far we have come relative to you know just say the peak before the

:27:29.:27:38.

crisis, we're actually far ahead of most of the other economies that got

:27:39.:27:41.

caught in the crisis. Again, you know, we are still living with a lot

:27:42.:27:45.

of challenges as a country. And it will take a sustained period of

:27:46.:27:50.

better policy outcomes from Washington to help make a difference

:27:51.:27:53.

on those things. I would take our challenges, I would prefer our

:27:54.:27:58.

challenges to those of most of the countries, most of the major

:27:59.:28:02.

economies in the world. Now, he's the rock star French economist whose

:28:03.:28:09.

book Capital In The 21st century became a best seller. Passionate

:28:10.:28:13.

politicians started to devise policies to tackle his thesis that

:28:14.:28:19.

capitalism inevitably led to ever greater inequalities, he has been

:28:20.:28:23.

tipped to win a Nobel Prize for his work. Tonight the statistical basis

:28:24.:28:26.

of what he wrote has been called into question by the Financial

:28:27.:28:30.

Times. Our economics correspondent is here. Do tell us more? I think

:28:31.:28:34.

this book in the last few weeks sort of became the economics equivalent

:28:35.:28:44.

of James Joyce's Uylesses, lots of people talking about it and not

:28:45.:28:50.

everyone reading it. The Financial Times writer has read it and gone

:28:51.:28:54.

back to the sores and asked a lot -- sources and asked a lot of

:28:55.:28:57.

questions. He thinks he has found a lot of biggerors in the book. Some

:28:58.:29:05.

of them are that Mr Picitty has copied sources over and got them

:29:06.:29:10.

wrong, that happens. Some of the errors look a lot more serious, this

:29:11.:29:15.

is the important thing to remember about his Capital in the 21 Century,

:29:16.:29:20.

it was call for a global tax and wealth. And the charitable

:29:21.:29:24.

interpretation is not everyone agreed with that. What most

:29:25.:29:31.

economists said the biggest achievement was assembling the data

:29:32.:29:35.

over three centuries. He claims that wealth inequality has been rising

:29:36.:29:39.

for the last few decades. He took the numbers for Sweden, France and

:29:40.:29:43.

the UK, add them all together and divide them by three, that is using

:29:44.:29:46.

a simple rather than a weighted average, that is something you get

:29:47.:29:52.

marked down for in a GCSE mas exam. That is a problem. What is more

:29:53.:29:55.

interesting for the political debate in Britain is what the FT and Chris

:29:56.:30:00.

Giles is saying about the UK economy. On Picketty's figures the

:30:01.:30:06.

top 10% have been taking more of national wealth since 1980s, it

:30:07.:30:10.

turns out he has used to do that tax records. They are numbers that

:30:11.:30:14.

specifically say they are not for that purpose. If you used office fo

:30:15.:30:19.

national statistics numbers you don't get that. Everyone will be

:30:20.:30:23.

pouring over the data it is out in the public, has he responded? Chris

:30:24.:30:27.

Giles has fired the starting begun and he has responded, he sent a

:30:28.:30:31.

letter to the FT, the stone of the letter is it is a bit defensive. In

:30:32.:30:36.

his defence, the only reason the FT can do that is he put all of that

:30:37.:30:39.

information in the public domain. If he was trying to hide something he

:30:40.:30:42.

has done it badly. What is interesting tonight is a change in

:30:43.:30:46.

tone. He's saying he wants to debate the numbers, there is lots of

:30:47.:30:50.

sources, let's have debate. That is very different from a few weeks ago

:30:51.:30:55.

which is you might agree with me or not but the numbers spook for

:30:56.:31:00.

themselves. As usual the contrary Brits had to be different and voted

:31:01.:31:04.

yesterday in the elections for the European Parliament, most of Europe

:31:05.:31:08.

doesn't vote until Sunday. There has been a euro-wide poll this month

:31:09.:31:11.

which results in a different result from the one likely to be unveiled

:31:12.:31:17.

on Sunday night. One outraged Russian politician even said "it's

:31:18.:31:28.

the end of Europe". This night is dedicated to everyone who believes

:31:29.:31:38.

in a future of peace and freedom. You know who you are. We are unity,

:31:39.:31:48.

and we are unstoppable. She joins me now, welcome. You got a great

:31:49.:31:52.

reception on the night that you won. But wouldn't it be true to say there

:31:53.:31:56.

are many social issues, Europe is quite deeply divided? Yeah, you know

:31:57.:32:02.

this night was a very special one, as you have seen in the little

:32:03.:32:07.

video. It is funny for me because Europe voted in such a tolerant way.

:32:08.:32:15.

For you? For me, and now it seems that a bit has changed. I think it

:32:16.:32:19.

was a big statement at the Eurovision night. But I think it

:32:20.:32:23.

just needs more than one statement. And there were some politician its,

:32:24.:32:27.

particularly in Russia and Turkey, they were very critical, even wrote

:32:28.:32:30.

about your victory, what did you make about that? First I really have

:32:31.:32:34.

to say this is a very big honour for me. Because they think that I'm that

:32:35.:32:41.

powerful to burst a whole coup, so thank you. I can understand that.

:32:42.:32:46.

Since you won and we saw on the night how the audience loved it, but

:32:47.:32:54.

have you been on the wrong end of abuse since, have people been nasty

:32:55.:33:00.

or tweeting or Facebooking? You know I'm used to that, from the first day

:33:01.:33:08.

of my career I had to fight against intolerance. You know most of the

:33:09.:33:13.

people got it now, they understood that this is not a joke, that I'm

:33:14.:33:17.

serious about what I think and say. But there are still people out there

:33:18.:33:22.

who have to change some minds. Are you winning? Well I hope so that we

:33:23.:33:28.

can win. You know I really believe in that we all can change something.

:33:29.:33:35.

So do you think that in some way the votes that you got, people were

:33:36.:33:38.

sending a political statement by voting for you? I think, you know at

:33:39.:33:45.

the end of the day it is a singing contest, so by all mbeliefs and what

:33:46.:33:54.

I said, if I had not that song I wouldn't have won. Besides that it

:33:55.:33:58.

was a political statement. Especially you see it in Russia, I'm

:33:59.:34:03.

number one on the iTunes charts. Even with a leadership that is not

:34:04.:34:08.

very tolerant? Yes. And that's a huge thing for me, actually. It just

:34:09.:34:12.

shows me that there are so many people out there believe in a future

:34:13.:34:18.

without discrimination. What about a political career, have you thought

:34:19.:34:22.

about that? Not really. I'm an artist, I speak out my beliefs, but

:34:23.:34:27.

I'm going to stick with singing. What are you going to do next? We're

:34:28.:34:32.

working on music, obviously, because this is the love of my life. But I

:34:33.:34:37.

will continue talking about my opinions. We are glad you came on

:34:38.:34:40.

and gave them to us tonight. Thank you. That is all we have time for, I

:34:41.:34:46.

will be back with the Sunday Politics 11.00 on BBC One. There

:34:47.:34:53.

will be a BBC Newsnight special on Sunday night, don't miss that, good

:34:54.:34:54.

night.

:34:55.:34:58.

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