02/06/2014 Newsnight


02/06/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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rerun in the light of allegations of corruption. This was the moment when

:00:25.:00:33.

the king of Spain proved the value of a monarchy, as he decides to call

:00:34.:00:39.

it a day, how much of Spain's transition to democracy can he take

:00:40.:00:48.

credit for. It has been gone so long it is difficult to go-to-come back.

:00:49.:00:52.

It is like a diver going deep on the dive and has to stage back up

:00:53.:00:58.

through ompression. The parents of the freed American soldier, Bowe

:00:59.:01:01.

Bergdahl, has yet to talk to their son. How does a person return to the

:01:02.:01:07.

world after five years incarceration at gun point. A

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world after five years incarceration five years by FARC guerrillas is

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here. Kirsty Allsop is here five years by FARC guerrillas is

:01:17.:01:23.

defend the idea that better to get their breeding done

:01:24.:01:32.

early. Well the

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early. will be held in Qatar, at least that

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is how it is tonight, but will be held in Qatar, at least that

:01:37.:01:40.

of yesterday's revelations by the Sunday Times that the extraordinary

:01:41.:01:44.

decision to hold the contest in place where summer temperatures are

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high enough to fry an egg on a crossbar, that decision may have had

:01:49.:01:52.

something to do with money being splashed about, have cast the whole

:01:53.:01:56.

thing into doubt. Any decision about whether to have a re-think will have

:01:57.:02:00.

to wait for a proper inquiry. But there is a very bad

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to wait for a proper inquiry. But The golden prize, not winning the

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tournament, but the chance to host it.

:02:11.:02:18.

Can I ask you one quick question? : The tiny Arab country Qatar does not

:02:19.:02:22.

want to discuss it. We haven't an official response, that's why?

:02:23.:02:28.

Minister? A torrent of claims alleges they paid millions to

:02:29.:02:32.

football officials to buy the bid. Now an investigation is

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football officials to buy the bid. that could, the Prime Minister

:02:35.:02:38.

hinted, result in the vote being rerun. That could lead to England

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having another chance to host the tournament, because its failed bid

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for 2018 was part of the same messy process. I will never forget the

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meetings we wept to the lobbying we did, it was like no other election I

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have been involved in, because every single person we met, whether the

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head of the FA, in this part of the world or that part of the world,

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they all said, yes of course we're going to vote for England to host

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the World Cup. And then they voted completely the other way and we

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ended up with one vote, but any way we will see what happens with this

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inquiry into the World Cup. Who knows what the chances may be for

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the future. The allegations claim that the former FIFA official, was

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lobbying on his country's behalf more than a year before the decision

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was made. And that he made payments into bank accounts controlled by the

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Presidents of 30 African Football Associations and a former Vice

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President of FIFA. The claims have been denied, and FIFA's own

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investigator, American lawyer, Michael Garcia, has promised his

:03:44.:03:47.

report into the affair will be complete next week. I don't think

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there is any choice for FIFA other than if it is going to restore its

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credibility it has to do so by reholding that bidding process, but

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also there has to be questions about the governance of the game by FIFA

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and whether Mr Blatter is a fit and proper person to continue to oversee

:04:03.:04:07.

that process. It has to be completely independent of those

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people who have been involved before. A senior source at FIFA told

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me the allegations are horrific, but that Bin Hamam was trying to run a

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campaign to replace Sepp Blatter at the same time. Was he trying to

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improve his own prospects not the Qatar bid. Another industry insider

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said without question if the FIFA investigation shows direct evidence

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of rigging the process, there will have to be another vote. FIFA's

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investigator isn't just looking at the behaviour of the Qataries, they

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have also been here, talking to those who promoted England's

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ultimately doomed bid for 2018. But whether or not they do provide

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enough direct evidence that Qatar's World Cup was bought and sold,

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reopening the bidding process would not be straight forward. FIFA will

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do everything they can to resist it, because one of the consequences of a

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rebuilding is that a potential breakaway from FIFA, a potential

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disintegration if the disaffected parties, particularly Qatar and

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perhaps African federations implicated might decide they don't

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want to participate any more. If the sense of objections swell, Qatar may

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never complete its swanky stadiums, if not... What would it say about

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the state of the game if the tournament in Qatar goes ahead?

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Dead. Dead? Dead as a viable and honourable and esteemable sport at

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international level. It has to be changed now. This mess begs a wider

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question too, how can the contest to host international sporting events,

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with billions of bounds worth of prestige ever be genuine. If some

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countries are prepared to flout the rules. One source familiar with the

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process said to me, if you are running against a country that is

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not democratic, there is no point. They can do whatever they want. They

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are, unaccountable. The England team now must concentrate on the game as

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they prepare for Brazil. But FIFA has much more than the next few

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weeks of football to concern them. We have a former member of FIFA's

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independent governance committee, which was set up to make the

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organisation more transparent, she resigned last year after FIFA failed

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to adopt many of her proposelias. How significant do you proposals.

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How significant do you -- proposals. How significant are these

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allegations? I think there is a lot of suspicion about the process and

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the Qatar decision ultimately. This level of documentation and evidence,

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if shown to be authentic, is stunning. We don't know and it is

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yesterday to be established whether there is any connection between what

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seems to have been done and what the Government of Qatar wanted? We have

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to accept that don't we? Sure, that's true and an important step in

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all of this, but a bribe is transactional, it is between two

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different parties. Regardless of who Bin Hamam was working for, if all of

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these allegations are turning out to be true someone was on the other

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side of it. Those people are senior in the FIFA establishment. You know

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this organisation, why is it so ghastly? It is a surprising

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organisation in many ways, but when you have an enormous and wealthy

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nonprofit like this, you don't have the shareholders to keep it honest

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as you would in a completion. -- corporation. You can have governance

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and we didn't have much Luke from that, or governance by the host,

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Switzerland is not showing much on there. And the sponsors have seemed

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pretty indifferent to the issues. So the Swiss should be keeping an eye

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on FIFA should they? Well they are the host country and organisations

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within Switzerland are governed by Swiss law. Absolutely. That would be

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the obvious choice. How could it be changed then? Well, again, if the

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Swiss Government weighs in and starts paying more attention to the

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Swiss law as it applies to its own nonprofit -- non--profits, or if

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there is a ground well that reaches out to the sponsors I think we could

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see change there. I don't think we should wait for FIFA to reform

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itself. You didn't wait, you voted with your feet, you resigned, why? I

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did. It was not a very fruitful undertaking I have to say. I was

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very enthusiastic at the outset, I thought it was a process that was

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both intriguing and very welcome by FIFA. Very few organisations set out

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to establish a group like our's and then reject their recommendations.

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And although some of the recommendations were ultimately

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accepted, many were rejected. It just wasn't a good use of time in

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the end. There are organisations that are inseer in their reform

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efforts. So let's be clear about this, FIFA set you up as an

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organisation to keep them honest, and when they didn't like some of

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the things you said, you had to quit? Well, it was a surprising

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conclusion to the process for me as well. We drafted a large number of

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recommendation, many of them very ordinary good governance

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recommendations and many were rejected outright. They cherrypicked

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through and took several, but most were rejected. As far as the Qatar,

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World Cup, 2022 bid is concerned now, what ought to happen? What

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ought to happen and what will happen are probably different things. What

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ought to happen is to restore international confidence in the

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process, I do think they need to re-run the vote. I don't think there

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is any avoiding that now if the ultimate goal is the confidence of

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the public. We have a series of scandals, and I'm just not sure how

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much longer the stakeholders are expected to accept scandal after

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scandal. It needs to come to an end. Whether that will happen is another

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question. Thank you very much for joining us.

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Laura is here, our chief correspondent. You have got some

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more news what can we expect to happen next? As was said this is

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dreadful for FIFA, but it is not the first time there have been

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allegations of what happened in Qatar. This incredible tumble of

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information out there now is capping off allegations of corruption that

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have already been made. And huge concerns about workers building the

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stadiums in Qatar and what is going on with that. But it appears it

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would be very risky financially and hugely inconvenient to unpick the

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mess. We have been talking to sources at some of the European

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clubs. Clubs have huge power in football, it is not just about the

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international organisations. It has been suggested to us something

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rather different that some inside FIFA may look for a way of wriggling

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out of the Qatar mess. There is the physical problem of holding the

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tournament in temperatures of over 40 degrees, for players and fans to

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be fainting in the heat. The clubs are adamant that the tournament

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cannot be moved to the winter, that not financially viable to them and

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it would bust up the business model of the Premiership here and cause

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problems in the other countries. Holding it in the summer would be a

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farce, because of that there is a growing sense that while these kinds

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of allegations in the short-term are very painful, in the long-term this

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could start to look like a way of FIFA actually digging themselves out

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of the hole that this whole bid mess created.

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The king of Spain has decided to hang up his crown, the man chosen as

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Head of State by the departing fascist ruler, General Franco, has

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suffered ill-health and scandal and has had enough. Voluntary abdication

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because you are getting on would have been unthinkable for centuries,

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and not least because people drop dead a lot earlier than they do

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nowadays. It has happened recently in Belgium, Holland and now Spain,

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raising among some a question of whether Elizabeth the English Queen

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and the gold standard in British monkeys Monarchies might resign.

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What has been the reaction to this news.

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It is a big moment, as can you imagine, this is a royal house that

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has experienced plenty of abdications, five previous ones, as

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you just said this is a time of abdications. The third in the space

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of 14 months in Europe. Little couldn'ter then that thousands did

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take to the streets this evening demanding a vote on the future of

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the monarchy itself, a Republican demonstration calling for the

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scrapping of the institution. But that said, although some polls

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recently had shown something like 80% of Spanish saying that King Juan

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Carlos should step down, the institution of monarchy remains

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subject to majority support here. Most people want it to continue.

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There could be many reasons for that, not least the fact that it is

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felt to have played a transformative function during his regin, which has

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now lasted nearly four decades. Almost everywhere history has

:14:01.:14:07.

relegated royals to the role of decorative players. As the old

:14:08.:14:13.

dictator General Franco faded away he gave the House of Burbon one last

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chance to captain the state. Juan Carlos became the custodian of

:14:32.:14:34.

Spain's transition back to democracy. And it was a fleeting

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role, because once parliamentary institutions were restored, his

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powers were soon clipped. But it wasn't a free ride. ??FORCEDWHI A

:14:43.:14:52.

Colonel tried to mount a coup. And against this blatant adventurism as

:14:53.:14:59.

well as a host of other challenges, the king stood fast. I wasn't afraid

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for Spain because I knew what the whole majority of the Armed Forces

:15:06.:15:07.

and the people in general wanted, and really needed for me to do that

:15:08.:15:13.

night. Having served his purpose Juan Carlos settled back into the

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more usual royal routine, attending royal weddings, visiting the sick,

:15:18.:15:22.

and presiding over state occasions. His popularity held out for many

:15:23.:15:27.

years, people even forgave the reported affairs. But it was

:15:28.:15:33.

austerity that did for him. I think he is tired, psychologically, he has

:15:34.:15:37.

been trying to improve his image, and he hasn't succeeded, he has just

:15:38.:15:43.

given up. As simple as that. There aren't many leaders for whom an

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elephant in the room becomes their literal nemesis. But photos of Juan

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Carlos hunting big game may have given the death wound to his regin.

:15:54.:15:58.

Not only had he been he will telling reporters how he felt the pain of

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Spain's unemployed, but he has also championed wildlife conservation. So

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a regin that began in 1975, which such constitutional and political

:16:10.:16:15.

importance, ends in a series of tabloid scandals. Spain faces all

:16:16.:16:20.

manner of crises now, not least getting the procedure right for his

:16:21.:16:26.

son to take over. Today Juan Carlos told his nation

:16:27.:16:32.

that he would hand power to his son, who the House trusts will find it

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easier to play the part of austerity Monarch. TRANSLATION: Today a new

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generation must lead, younger people with more energy, determined to push

:16:43.:16:46.

through with the reforms we need and face our future challenges. I have

:16:47.:16:50.

only ever wanted to contribute to the welfare of ordinary Spaniards, I

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want the best for this country. He's a man in his mid-40s, fresh,

:16:57.:17:01.

untainted by the scandals affecting his family. But at the same time

:17:02.:17:05.

he's someone that is not that well known, he hasn't been under the

:17:06.:17:09.

spotlight that often. Let's say he has the potential to become very

:17:10.:17:15.

popular, but in a way it is still an enigma. The worst of all for him is

:17:16.:17:19.

he will face the country at a moment of huge crisis of different sorts,

:17:20.:17:24.

economic, political, constitutional and well it is a challenge that is

:17:25.:17:34.

really difficult. While Juan Carlos was unpopular here there is no

:17:35.:17:40.

overwhelming desire of public, the House of Bush Bonn -- Burbon might

:17:41.:17:50.

just get a chance of ention and a new king.

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Paul Preston is with us, you wrote a book back Juan Carlos didn't you? I

:17:54.:18:01.

did. The text on the subject? So he says! How important a figure do you

:18:02.:18:07.

think history will judge him to be? Fantastic. I mean there really

:18:08.:18:14.

aren't words to describe in retrospect how he will be seen. I

:18:15.:18:19.

don't want to say he made democracy. The pressure came from the Spanish

:18:20.:18:23.

people. But what he did in terms of neutralising the army in the course

:18:24.:18:28.

of 1976 to make it possible for there to be the transactions and the

:18:29.:18:33.

negotiations that brought about what is actually quite a limited

:18:34.:18:37.

transition in the first instance. That was immensely courageous, and

:18:38.:18:41.

then after the first elections in 1977, over the next four years he

:18:42.:18:47.

acted as fireman of democracy. And until, which we have just seen, the

:18:48.:18:52.

defeat of the coup in 1981, he was absolutely the key plan. I think it

:18:53.:18:58.

is fair to say without him there would have very likely been

:18:59.:19:02.

bloodshed. Despite the errors, and the ending of a glorious regin, I

:19:03.:19:08.

think history will treat him very benevolently. You look at the

:19:09.:19:12.

pictures of protest against him in Spain, and clearly a lot of people

:19:13.:19:16.

have forgotten that? There is a couple of issues here, first of all

:19:17.:19:20.

there is a generational thing. A lot of people who were born,

:19:21.:19:25.

35-year-olds were born when he was already king, and if you look at the

:19:26.:19:29.

polls, the support amongst people who are 35 and below for the

:19:30.:19:34.

monarchy is around about the 40% more, as against the 65% mark more

:19:35.:19:39.

generally. We need to remember that five years ago it was in the 80s. So

:19:40.:19:45.

there has been a fall. The problem is that the king as the pinnacle of

:19:46.:19:50.

the political system, in the first instance was, if you like, splashed

:19:51.:19:55.

by the mud that was going on because of the massive discontent as a

:19:56.:20:00.

result of the economic crisis. It then hit him personally the biggest

:20:01.:20:05.

thing behind the demos, not directly against the king or monarchy, they

:20:06.:20:09.

are against the political system. But the political system is riddled

:20:10.:20:15.

with corruption, right from municiple level to the top. And the

:20:16.:20:19.

king was associated with it. Once it hit his family personally, once

:20:20.:20:23.

investigations started into his son-in-law then that hit him. That

:20:24.:20:28.

since, combined with a general weariness on his part, and of course

:20:29.:20:33.

the issue you about the German Princess, about the elephant hunting

:20:34.:20:38.

and so on and so forth. That is personal? It is personal but in

:20:39.:20:43.

Spain it is very odd. There was a point in Mark's report where he

:20:44.:20:48.

referred that he managed to get over the fact of many affairs. The

:20:49.:20:53.

Spaniards are worse than the French in this regard, or better, it

:20:54.:20:57.

depends the way you look at it. They don't give a damn about the sexual

:20:58.:21:01.

life of their male leaders. But the sense that money was being wasted or

:21:02.:21:06.

money changing hands in a corrupt manner, which has to be proved but

:21:07.:21:12.

the generalised feeling that was the case has caused part of the problem.

:21:13.:21:18.

Can we reappraise Franco for the fact that he chose this man,

:21:19.:21:22.

cleverly by your account in the transition to democracy, Franco

:21:23.:21:26.

chose him for the job? Absolutely not. He chose him and trained them.

:21:27.:21:32.

Effectively Juan Carlos was kidnapped age 10 and taken to Spain

:21:33.:21:38.

to be trained in FAUNGS. In the meanwhile Franco played with various

:21:39.:21:45.

royal candidates and he chose Juan Carlos to humiliate the legitimate

:21:46.:21:50.

king who was his father. That was the first dirty trick he did. The

:21:51.:21:54.

second thing is Franco trained Juan Carlos in order to maintain the

:21:55.:21:59.

dictatorship. What is truly remarkable and courageous about him

:22:00.:22:03.

is he betrayed Franco and the old system. Technically he didn't. There

:22:04.:22:08.

was an immensely clever arrangement whereby very, very clever

:22:09.:22:12.

constitutional lawyers, if you like, worked out ways to wriggle through

:22:13.:22:18.

Franco's constitutional arrangement, that there by made it possible for

:22:19.:22:23.

him to seem to fulfil the oaths he had taken. He did absolutely what

:22:24.:22:30.

Franco did not want him to do. His family seems delighted, presumably

:22:31.:22:34.

he is too, but the circumstances under which US army Sergeant Bowe

:22:35.:22:39.

Bergdahl came to be freed after five years in Taliban captivity have set

:22:40.:22:47.

off a furious spat. They demonstrate unambiguously about how all that

:22:48.:22:51.

talk about the United States not negotiating with hostage takers is

:22:52.:22:55.

so much hot air, it does and it did. In exchange of five of what the US

:22:56.:23:00.

claim to be the most dangerous men in the world have been freed. In

:23:01.:23:04.

addition to that there is the small matter of how Sergeant Bergdahl came

:23:05.:23:14.

to be captured in the first place. Release me, please, I'm begging you,

:23:15.:23:18.

bring me home. For five years a steady drip of Taliban videos

:23:19.:23:23.

provided the link to America's only prisoner of war. Please. Bring me

:23:24.:23:33.

home. Five years of moral dilemma between two American promises,

:23:34.:23:38.

"leave no man behind" and "we don't negotiate with terrorists". The

:23:39.:23:42.

military motto won, Bowe Bergdahl is coming home. But while there is

:23:43.:23:48.

celebrations in his home town were the yellow ribbons were tied

:23:49.:23:52.

awaiting his return and where the balloons now fly, that difficult

:23:53.:23:57.

choice has consequences. An emotional reunion in Qatar between

:23:58.:24:02.

the Taliban and their five senior commanders, held for more than ten

:24:03.:24:07.

years in Guantanamo Bay. Their release described as a big victory

:24:08.:24:12.

by the Afghan Taliban leader, Mullah Omar in a rare public statement. And

:24:13.:24:17.

so the battle moves to America. And for control of the political

:24:18.:24:21.

narrative. A President, flanked by two

:24:22.:24:25.

delighted parents. Sergeant Sergi has missed birthdays and holidays

:24:26.:24:30.

and a simple moment with family and friends which all of us take for

:24:31.:24:34.

granted, but while Bowe was gone, he was never forgotten. With these

:24:35.:24:39.

prisoners of war exchanged as Afghan operations wind down, or as

:24:40.:24:43.

President Obama's opponents believe, was it a deal done with terrorists

:24:44.:24:49.

in a global war on terror, that America is still fight. We are all

:24:50.:24:54.

grateful he is returned. There are legitimate questions about these

:24:55.:24:58.

individuals who are being released and the conditions under way they

:24:59.:25:04.

will be released. These are the hardest of the hardcore. These are

:25:05.:25:09.

the highest high-risk people. And others that we have released have

:25:10.:25:13.

gone back into the fight. That has been documented. There is

:25:14.:25:18.

uncertainty about how Bowe Bergdahl was captured. It has some here

:25:19.:25:23.

asking if he was a hero or deserter. And whether America should have paid

:25:24.:25:27.

such a high price for his return. I was behind a patrol, I was lagging

:25:28.:25:32.

behind the patrol and I was captured. But colleagues say there

:25:33.:25:36.

was no patrol, that he left the base of his own accord, leaving his

:25:37.:25:41.

helmet and body armour behind. The last e-mail to his parents before

:25:42.:25:45.

his disappearance indicated his state of mind. "These people need

:25:46.:25:50.

help... " It is this controversy, personal and

:25:51.:26:11.

political that Bowe Bergdahl will return to once he's well enough. His

:26:12.:26:15.

parents fought for his freedom and will now have to help him readjust

:26:16.:26:20.

to it. You are free, freedom is yours. I will see you soon my

:26:21.:26:27.

beloved son, I love you. He has been gone so long that it will be very

:26:28.:26:33.

difficult to come back. It is like a diver going deep on a dive and has

:26:34.:26:37.

to stage back up through recompression, to get the nitrogen

:26:38.:26:41.

bubbles out of the system. If he comes up too fast it could kill him.

:26:42.:26:47.

Last month his father Bob spoke to the Guardian, recording on video the

:26:48.:26:52.

pain of waiting for a son to come home. I wake up each morning and my

:26:53.:26:57.

first thought is my son is still a prisoner of war in Afghanistan. This

:26:58.:27:02.

is where Bowe grew up, learned to hunt. This winter camp was built in

:27:03.:27:07.

case he was released. We set this up for him, hoping he would get home

:27:08.:27:12.

this winter, maybe he will need a place to stay. And kind of recover.

:27:13.:27:20.

His father has let his beard grow, has learned some Pashtu, campaigned

:27:21.:27:25.

relentlessly for his release and given some insight into why his son

:27:26.:27:31.

joined the military. I know it was Bow, he's motivation to help these

:27:32.:27:35.

people, it is how the war is shaped in the mind of a lot of Americans.

:27:36.:27:43.

Is that we are there as some kind of peace corp with guns. That is just

:27:44.:27:54.

an impossible mission. It is a mission we are not very good at I

:27:55.:27:58.

believe. The last decade proves that. There is excitement and

:27:59.:28:01.

anticipation about his home coming, they care little here about talks

:28:02.:28:05.

with the Taliban, US-Afghan relations and the political cost to

:28:06.:28:09.

President Obama or America, just the son that's coming home. We have the

:28:10.:28:14.

light up there that we turned on when Bowe was first captured, we

:28:15.:28:18.

have it had on ever since, we are going to let him turn that off.

:28:19.:28:26.

We're joined now by a woman held captive by the Colombian FARC

:28:27.:28:33.

movement for six years. What will he be feeling this released young man?

:28:34.:28:38.

I think he's probably of course filled with joy. But also with fear.

:28:39.:28:46.

He must be fearing to come back to a world that he doesn't know any more.

:28:47.:28:53.

Feeling that he doesn't belong any more. Because he has become so

:28:54.:28:58.

accustomed to the narrow confines of the world that he has been living

:28:59.:29:02.

in? No it is because the problem of the time. Five years makes you, he

:29:03.:29:07.

knows that he has missed many of the things that had happened in his

:29:08.:29:12.

family. That probably the people he knew are not the same, or probably

:29:13.:29:18.

some have died. That the world's going to come back to is not the

:29:19.:29:28.

same t has changed. And also because he will have to try to find another

:29:29.:29:35.

way of living. How is he likely to have been changed by the experience?

:29:36.:29:41.

In many, many ways probably the first thing he will notice is that

:29:42.:29:47.

the relationship he has with his family, which will be like the

:29:48.:29:52.

standard, where he will want to come back to, will have changed because

:29:53.:29:56.

he will have probably difficulties to trust. One of the problems when

:29:57.:30:00.

you are abducted is you are confronted on a daily basis that

:30:01.:30:04.

with people who are lying to you. So it becomes to you like normal or

:30:05.:30:10.

natural just to always be very sceptical and always you know have

:30:11.:30:17.

this trust problem. I suppose that he will have also to bear the fact

:30:18.:30:24.

that his own suffering will be put in balance with the suffering of his

:30:25.:30:29.

family and that's something that is always traumatic N a way there is

:30:30.:30:33.

this kind of discussion of who suffered the most. If you were going

:30:34.:30:38.

to give advice, if you were asked, I know you wouldn't give it otherwise,

:30:39.:30:41.

but if you were asked to give advice to him or his family what would it

:30:42.:30:53.

be? I think the key is love, you know. It is very difficult, in those

:30:54.:30:59.

situations everything is so fragile and I think that if the intention is

:31:00.:31:05.

love then things get slowly into place. Is it possible there might

:31:06.:31:09.

even be things that he would miss from his captivity? Not at the first

:31:10.:31:16.

moment, I would say, that in the first years he will just be so happy

:31:17.:31:23.

to be out of there. But afterwards, he might be like thinking over on

:31:24.:31:29.

what he lived and bringing back things that became important for him

:31:30.:31:33.

and it will give him another perspective. Not that he won't want

:31:34.:31:42.

to go back, but in a way that he will evaluate or assess for example

:31:43.:31:50.

the ability to be alone, to reflect on things and to meditate. After

:31:51.:31:58.

all, and your horrible experience being held captive for all those

:31:59.:32:03.

years you say you thank God for it? Yes. Why? Because I think that in my

:32:04.:32:09.

case it was an opportunity to grow. In many ways to mature. But those

:32:10.:32:19.

grow spiritually, to try to understand myself i think I

:32:20.:32:23.

discovered myself in the jungle with the good and bad things that I

:32:24.:32:26.

wanted to change. Thank you very much, thank you. What do we tell our

:32:27.:32:36.

daughters, our friends about how to live their lives. The editor of

:32:37.:32:42.

Cosmopolitan magazine allegedly claimed that women could have

:32:43.:32:48.

careers, everything and orgasams. But a female reader has discovered,

:32:49.:32:52.

one after another, that the one thing you can have, is advice in

:32:53.:32:59.

abundance. Now comes along is Her Poshness Kirsty Allsop says they

:33:00.:33:04.

need to get it in the right order, have your children while you can

:33:05.:33:08.

rather than when your career will allow

:33:09.:33:10.

rather than when your career will Apart from the dangers of male

:33:11.:33:15.

colleagues that remain, this scene is not quite as routine as it once

:33:16.:33:23.

was. Family life came first, to such distractions as university for young

:33:24.:33:24.

women. Since distractions as university for young

:33:25.:33:29.

changed dramatically. Women are now more likely than men to go to

:33:30.:33:32.

university. And that is reflected in the age women are choosing to have

:33:33.:33:39.

children. From 23 in the late 1960s to nearly 30 now. Women may be

:33:40.:33:44.

having it all, but probably not all at the same time. Property expert

:33:45.:33:53.

and presenter Kirsty Allsop says women need to prioritise. The period

:33:54.:33:58.

of time we can get married and children, but as a woman your

:33:59.:34:02.

fertility drops off the cliff aged 35. Today the self-described

:34:03.:34:08.

feminist went further talking to the Telegraph, she says the advice she

:34:09.:34:16.

would give to her own hypothetical daughter was let's get you in flat,

:34:17.:34:20.

find you a nice boyfriend and you can have a baby by the time you are

:34:21.:34:25.

27. There was an eruption. What was so wrong with the advice about women

:34:26.:34:29.

choosing their own vocation, vocation, vocation. We are ajoined

:34:30.:34:37.

by Kirsty and Holly the editor of Vagenda magazine. What do you make

:34:38.:34:42.

of the advice? I find it slightly depressing. What is sad about it is

:34:43.:34:47.

that you say you know you have this hypothetical daughter, growing up in

:34:48.:34:49.

a society that makes it difficult to be a mother viae a career and do

:34:50.:34:53.

university and things so, I would ask her to change her life around,

:34:54.:34:57.

and what I find depressing about that is I really want society to

:34:58.:35:01.

change. I want us to campaign for things like paternity leave to be

:35:02.:35:06.

extended, and for flexible working hours. I don't want women's lives to

:35:07.:35:11.

have to change. There is one thing Holly that is really difficult in

:35:12.:35:14.

all of this. I want exactly what you want, all of those things, but

:35:15.:35:17.

nature is not with you and I. Nature is not a feminist. This one factor

:35:18.:35:23.

about the fertility window is the only thing that I was addressing and

:35:24.:35:27.

discussing. Go to university, have a career, do what makes you happy,

:35:28.:35:32.

travel, write, do whatever you want, but be aware of the fertility window

:35:33.:35:38.

and make your choices in an informed way. And this fertility window has

:35:39.:35:44.

been a taboo topic, people have not discussed it. And that's the issue,

:35:45.:35:50.

we can't change it. That issen unarguable fact, fertility does go

:35:51.:35:55.

over a cliff as you put it by the time, from about mid-30s on wards?

:35:56.:36:06.

If you have a fertility problem you don't know about it and you hit 35

:36:07.:36:10.

and go into forms of treatment that is very difficult. That is a

:36:11.:36:15.

biological fact? It is also that two people make a baby and why should be

:36:16.:36:21.

a woman considering. Because only the woman is affected by the

:36:22.:36:26.

fertility problem? Why shouldn't the man leave university as well. Holly

:36:27.:36:30.

is quite right, that is what I said in the article, that is why today

:36:31.:36:34.

has particularly enraged me, I have been condemned for saying it, people

:36:35.:36:38.

haven't read the whole interview. I have! In the interview I said if I

:36:39.:36:43.

had a son of 26 in a loving relationship with someone, I would

:36:44.:36:46.

say to him, address the topic of what you both want for your future.

:36:47.:36:50.

It is important that men understand about the fertility window just the

:36:51.:36:53.

same as women. Because it impacts them. They want to be parents. And

:36:54.:36:57.

if they don't want to be parents they need to say, sorry, that is not

:36:58.:37:02.

what I want right now, this isn't for me. We need to be more honest,

:37:03.:37:06.

as women to each other and as parents to our children. Because the

:37:07.:37:11.

heartache of interfillity, we have all seen it, we -- infertility, we

:37:12.:37:18.

have all friends who have failed to understand this window because women

:37:19.:37:21.

haven't been honest with other women because we have lots of things we

:37:22.:37:24.

still have to achieve and there is lots of things that women still

:37:25.:37:30.

struggle to get on equal terms. So this topic has been taboo. You must

:37:31.:37:34.

have come across women who have struggled with this? Personally what

:37:35.:37:40.

I come across more often with the Vagenda is people telling me they

:37:41.:37:44.

are constantly reminded in the media about their fertility, about their

:37:45.:37:48.

biological clock ticking, about how they should choose between a career

:37:49.:37:52.

and a child and how that should be mutually exclusive. To me, I know

:37:53.:37:56.

this isn't something you are opposed to. It is not mutually exclusive,

:37:57.:38:08.

but it is a biological argument? I do think the clock is ticking but I

:38:09.:38:12.

don't see how it changes into you changing your life. Especially not

:38:13.:38:17.

only for a woman, or a daughter. If I had a daughter I would say to her

:38:18.:38:22.

think about it, it is her personal biological clock, it is her personal

:38:23.:38:27.

fertility, she needs to discuss it with her partner obviously. We have

:38:28.:38:31.

to reatraining our lives because we live so much longer, you know.

:38:32.:38:35.

Nature has in one sense been beaten by us, we have added 20 years to our

:38:36.:38:39.

life span in the last 100 years and yet we haven't been able to alter,

:38:40.:38:44.

in any way, that fertility women, because women are born with their

:38:45.:38:47.

eggs, they are desperate to get out from the age of 14, by the time you

:38:48.:38:53.

are 35 they have been trying to get out for 20 years? Definitely, but

:38:54.:38:58.

there is so much pressure by the media women are so aware of it, and

:38:59.:39:04.

they are hold to be hypera-- told to be hyperaware of it. There is this

:39:05.:39:07.

structural problem with women not being able to have babies and

:39:08.:39:10.

careers. The real priority is to make sure that we have those things

:39:11.:39:13.

in place that they can. We shouldn't be telling women only to be

:39:14.:39:16.

responsible. I know this isn't exactly what you said as well. But

:39:17.:39:21.

women only to be responsible. Did you reorganise your life? I was very

:39:22.:39:25.

lucky Jeremy, because I was desperate for children from a very

:39:26.:39:29.

early age and nobody was interested. Absolutely not. When I met my

:39:30.:39:34.

partner was 32 and he knew that I wanted children and we had them

:39:35.:39:38.

sooner than would have been ideal. So it worked out for you? Only just.

:39:39.:39:44.

But it did work out? It did, but I was lucky. The thing I'm really

:39:45.:39:47.

adamant about, make your choices, don't let, as Holly said, don't let

:39:48.:39:52.

society dictate, but make your choices in an informed way. If we

:39:53.:39:58.

say to women it is OK, it is OK, wait, waiting wait we are denying

:39:59.:40:04.

those women who want children, and there are many who don't, and that

:40:05.:40:08.

is a very important issue, this is not for everyone. But those who know

:40:09.:40:12.

at an early stage they want children, they need to look at all

:40:13.:40:17.

the choices available and say should I reorder the choices in order to

:40:18.:40:21.

reflect that the only window closing is my fertility window, my education

:40:22.:40:27.

and career window is not closing. Including the men they are with?

:40:28.:40:31.

Yes, of course. There are reckoned to be thousands of young people in

:40:32.:40:35.

gangs in London, when I say young I mean the average age of being a

:40:36.:40:41.

member of one of these gangs on first conviction is 15. Today law

:40:42.:40:45.

enforcement officials from both sides of the Atlantic met to pool

:40:46.:40:49.

ideas about how to combat the lure of gang life and how to limit its

:40:50.:40:54.

damage. Older guys told us how to do things, how to beef, how to make

:40:55.:40:59.

money. Don't leave your boy, don't run, don't snitch, don't get caught.

:41:00.:41:05.

JT Jumps Off, the story of one gang member in London was a Newsnight

:41:06.:41:10.

report replayed today at City Hall for a summit on what to do about

:41:11.:41:15.

gangs. London has turned a corner with gang crime, at least that's the

:41:16.:41:20.

climb Boris Johnson and the Met are instrument pet, but it is an odd

:41:21.:41:24.

form of success where nearly 20 young people were shot or stabbed

:41:25.:41:30.

every week in the capital last year. Are the Met doing enough to help the

:41:31.:41:36.

young men and women taught caught up in the -- caught up in the gangs and

:41:37.:41:41.

would the gang members really trust them. SGLP this year the inquest

:41:42.:41:49.

into Mark Duggan's death flared into angry name calling, a window into

:41:50.:41:53.

tensions between the police and some communities in London. But the

:41:54.:41:57.

police were found to have acted legally in that case, but they are

:41:58.:42:01.

still under a cloud, embarrassed by revelations that officers sold

:42:02.:42:04.

information to newspapers and tried to bring down the cabinet minister,

:42:05.:42:09.

Andrew Mitchell. And today came another blow as the IPCC said it

:42:10.:42:15.

will investigate claims of discreditable conduct over police

:42:16.:42:18.

handling of the Stephen Lawrence murder inquiry. Plenty to talk about

:42:19.:42:22.

with the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Sir Bernard

:42:23.:42:30.

Hogan-Howe. Will you ever rid the streets of gangs? Never completely.

:42:31.:42:35.

One of the things I found was there was a huge problem when I arrived

:42:36.:42:38.

three years ago. And there is still a problem. What worried me was the

:42:39.:42:42.

amount of crime driven by relatively small groups of people. All the

:42:43.:42:46.

people I talked to told me there was a gang people, and yet we the police

:42:47.:42:49.

hadn't acknowledged it. The first thing was to acknowledge the problem

:42:50.:42:53.

and try to do something about it. Do you understand why some young men

:42:54.:42:57.

carry knives? I understand why they say they carry them, I can never

:42:58.:43:02.

defend it myself. You don't agree with carrying a knife but you

:43:03.:43:07.

understand how they may wish to? I can't show anybody knit sympathy for

:43:08.:43:10.

somebody who carries knives. I'm asking for understanding? I'm not

:43:11.:43:14.

going to understand it, my advice to them is not to carry knives. We will

:43:15.:43:19.

do our best to get them out of the lifestyle and arrest the people

:43:20.:43:23.

involved. But you can never give any sympathy to people who carry knives.

:43:24.:43:27.

Do you think you are getting to the girls involved in gangs? I think

:43:28.:43:34.

that is hard e quite often the girls are victims, it is not always true,

:43:35.:43:39.

they are used as couriers for drugs as they are thought to receive a

:43:40.:43:43.

lesser sentence, that is not true. The other way they are victims is

:43:44.:43:47.

traded as sexual playthings around the gangs, that is where they are

:43:48.:43:50.

particularly vulnerable. Are you making as much progress with girls

:43:51.:43:54.

as boys? I don't think it is as profound, there is more to do there.

:43:55.:43:58.

The girls seem as though they have got into the culture themselves of

:43:59.:44:02.

not realising their victims and they are seeks acceptance. I have think

:44:03.:44:06.

we have far more to do but both are important. What are the policing

:44:07.:44:15.

issues that keep awe you awake tonight? The gangs and the amount of

:44:16.:44:22.

crime that they are involved in. We haven't resolved it yet it will take

:44:23.:44:26.

probably a decade of working hard in a careful way. What are the other

:44:27.:44:30.

issues that worry you? We have to think about in London about counter

:44:31.:44:34.

terrorism issues. Obviously we have the threat that people are aware of

:44:35.:44:38.

in terms of Syria and the young men generally who have gone away to

:44:39.:44:43.

Syria. How dangerous is that, young men going to Syria and not coming

:44:44.:44:48.

back? We have seen reports over the last week where there was an attack

:44:49.:44:52.

in Belgium where it was suspected the person had been in Syria,s if

:44:53.:44:56.

that is a sign of things to come that is a worry. It could be if we

:44:57.:45:00.

see large numbers arriving back together, depending on how the war

:45:01.:45:03.

ends. We will have to be concerned about that. Our big concern is a

:45:04.:45:08.

large group of people who are brutalised and have access to other

:45:09.:45:11.

people in a similar frame of mind and may be determined to take

:45:12.:45:16.

political action. You must worry about this, the general standing of

:45:17.:45:19.

the police, something has happened to the relationship between much of

:45:20.:45:23.

the society and the police force. The police are no longer seen as

:45:24.:45:29.

friends, they are no longer seen as trustworthy in many communities, I'm

:45:30.:45:33.

not just talking here about criminal communities, but in parts of society

:45:34.:45:36.

there are things that have happened that have made people think "the

:45:37.:45:42.

bloody police", do you worry about that? We do, although I'm not sure

:45:43.:45:47.

as you have described it, overstates it. Hillsborough, the police made up

:45:48.:45:52.

evidence, they frame a cabinet minister in the plan gate affair --

:45:53.:45:57.

plebgate affair, how much more do d'oh we need as -- do we need as

:45:58.:46:03.

proof that things are wrong in the police? If you span 0 years and look

:46:04.:46:08.

at journalism and health, how much other issues when looking over 30

:46:09.:46:12.

years there would be worries. There is special duties belonging to the

:46:13.:46:18.

police? Ly on to that, we have high standards and the police should keep

:46:19.:46:21.

to them. We should all be shocked when those standards are not kept.

:46:22.:46:26.

If we look at things like surveys, the confidence in the police is

:46:27.:46:29.

high. If you look at the evidence going through the courts system, it

:46:30.:46:32.

is rare for police evidence to be doubted. I think there are some

:46:33.:46:36.

things that should reassure us, where there are things have gone

:46:37.:46:40.

wrong it is vital to get to the bottom and put it right. That's all

:46:41.:46:46.

we have time for tonight, until tomorrow, good night.

:46:47.:47:02.

we have time for tonight, until tomorrow, good night. That's all we

:47:03.:47:08.

have time for tonight, until tomorrow, good night. That's all

:47:09.:47:09.

NSMIT Good There will be lengthy dry spells and

:47:10.:47:17.

breaking through western areas, but more widely through the afternoon.

:47:18.:47:20.

So some decent weather to be had

:47:21.:47:22.

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