Browse content similar to 04/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
demands to know what exactly is going on between the Education | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
Secretary and the Home Secretary. At the same time s had minions say that | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
efforts to fight Muslim extremism are co-ordinated and effective. Now | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
Newsnight has been told how when the Home Office cut funding for an | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
anti-extremist organisation, Michael Gove's department stepped in to help | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
the organisation out. Some senior civil servants at the Home Office | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
says the Department for Education has been running what they call a | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
parallel security policy. The chairman of that group is here. The | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
Taliban's media studies department turns a prisoner trade into a | :00:47. | :00:57. | |
marketing opportunity. And Kevin spacey considers his future. I'm | :00:58. | :01:05. | |
never going to leave, I not get on plane and BEEP off, I will always be | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
part of the country. The photographer who caught this moment | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
tells us the story behind the picture. | :01:13. | :01:22. | |
There is no, repeat, no feud at the top of the Government. The chairman | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
of the Conservative Party tells us so, as does the Downing Street | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
propaganda machine. So the testy exchanges between the Home Secretary | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
and the Education Secretary, about Muslim extremism, signify nothing | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
beyond a difference of emphasis? Michael Gove thinks Theresa May is | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
an excellent Home Secretary, it must be true, an unnamed person close to | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
him said it! But beneath all this froth is a very serious issue. | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
Before we talk about it we have this report. My Lords and members of the | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
House of Commons. This was supposed to be the story of the day. The | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
Queen's Speech. But instead, the main political event is centered on | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
schools in a mainly Pakistani neighbourhood in Birmingham. That is | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
because Theresa May, the Home Secretary, last night sent a rather | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
aggressive letter to the Department for Education about radicalism and | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
extremism in schools. And, in doing so, she turned some local | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
difficulties in Birmingham into a national problem for Michael Gove, | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
the Education Secretary. And his outriders, in turn, have thrown some | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
barbes at Miss May. This is also a skirmish in a long turf war on | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
terror policy. Newsnight can exclusively reveal one key chapter | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
in that story. In 2011 the Quilliam Foundation, a counter extremism | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
think-tank close to Mr Gove, appealed to the Home Office for | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
?150,000, saying it needed it to stay hope, the Home Office refused. | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
The principle we want to uphold is Quilliam should be free to | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
contribute to the wider debate, but not depend on Government fund to go | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
do so. Some Government officials feel the tough decision was | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
undermined a few weeks later when the Department for Education decided | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
to give the think-tank ?150,000. Some senior officials at the Home | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
Office said the Department for Education has been running what they | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
call a "parallel security policy". The fact the fight has been going on | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
for so long explains the vitriol on display this week. Next week Ofsted, | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
the education inspectorate is expected to put five Birmingham | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
schools into special measure, the culmination of a wave of inspections | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
across the city, Folauing on from the publication of the so called | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
Trojan horse documents. A letter, now proved to be a forgery, setting | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
out details of a plot by Muslim hardliners to take over schools all | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
across the city. Fears of a broader conspiracy have dissolved. But Miss | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
May has turned the heat up Mr Michael Gove, in her letter, | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
referring to concerns about extremism she wrote: | :04:12. | :04:19. | |
Is that critque fair. Much will concern this school Park View. It | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
was blocked from opening a free school by the Department for | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
Education on security grounds. But it wasn't intervened on, nor was it | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
stopped taking over another two state schools. Still we do not know | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
precisely what intelligence officials actually had. Michael Gove | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
is a pretty unlikely person to be accused of being soft on extremism. | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
Over the past few years he and Miss May have been locked in an argument | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
about this issue, and it is him who is usually cast as the hardliner. In | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
fact in 2006 he wrote a book about this issue, in a chapter headed "the | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
Trojan horse", he wrote "in the struggle against extremism, the | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
British state has not only dealt effectively with those openly | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
committed to Jihad, it has also failed to tackle the underlying | :05:13. | :05:22. | |
idealistic currents that favour extremism". Youngsters can be | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
brainwashed at a young age and be taught to dislike and dehumanise | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
others. This may not teach somebody to become a terrorist or Jihadi, but | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
from there to going and committing a terrorist act is a very, very short | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
step. It has the potential to drive somebody towards an action in a much | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
more efficient manner for the recruiters. Miss May and her allies | :05:45. | :05:53. | |
want the focus to be on more explicitly violent extremism. One of | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
the things Michael Gove apparently said is we shouldn't be fighting the | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
crocodiles on the edge of the swamp but drain the swamp. That is a very | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
black and white approach, and you may find there are a whole bunch of | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
animals in the swamp you are forcing to choose to be for origins you. If | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
you force them into that position you may be uncomfortable with the | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
numbers lining up on the opposite side. Then you have made your | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
position worse not better. The Prime Minister is now intervening in this | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
extraordinary spat. But not before one important piece of damage has | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
been done to the Tories. Miss May has given Labour a hand. Her letter | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
says that the allegations relating to schools in Birmingham raise | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
serious questions about the quality of school governance and oversight. | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
That is rather help offul to the opposition which claims that the | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
coalition has weakened school supervision. Playground tiffes can | :06:46. | :06:53. | |
do some real damage to political parties. | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
We have the chairman of the Quilliam Foundation, and a Lib Dem | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
parliamentary candidate. With us too is the founder and chairman of | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
trustees of a private Muslim school in Leicester. Is it possible | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
gentleman to define what extremism is? I think essentially generally it | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
is the desire to impose one's opinion on anyone else. Within the | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
Muslim context we have to accept there is such a thing as extremism, | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
we are calling it Islamism, and that can be defined as the desire to | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
impose interpretation of Islam over society by law. How does it manifest | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
itself? The desire to impose Islam over society by law according to | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
one's interpretation can impose itself in cases like Sudan this | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
month, where a lady was sentence for blasphemy. In this country? | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
Segregation, in public institutions, Sharia patrols walking around in | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
what they have labelled "Muslim areas", it can define itself in all | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
sorts of honour killings and FGM. People interpreting the religion, no | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
sir the religion itself, it is extreme interpretation of the | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
religion. Would you accept that interpretation of extremism? It is | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
important fact you mentioned. The definition has never been said by | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
the Government and it is very flexible. That causes problems by | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
schools, on the one hand we are told to fight and prevent extremism, but | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
we are not told what it is. I think you would find that most Muslims | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
within the community are anti-extremist as well. They don't | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
see what they do as being extremism? Do you think the Government is | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
getting it wrong? I think they are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. | :08:33. | :08:40. | |
This reaction and response to what is an anonymous letter and denounced | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
as a fake by most people. To come in like this with anti-Tory and counter | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
terrorism. Everything that the Muslims are doing these days, | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
including education, is seen through the lens of antiterrorism and | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
security. We have to accept in our communities there is a challenge | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
that we face that, yes, the vast majority of Muslims aren't violent, | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
but we do have to deal with that vocal minority who have come to | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
dominate the discourse of our communities, who promote, for | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
example, in an ideal state they want homosexuals to be killed, they | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
promote adulters to be stoned to death and call for the amputation of | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
the hand of the thief. And they believe in these things in principle | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
and are calling them. They build the mood music to which suicide bombers | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
dance. There is a reason why we currently have about 400 British | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
born and raised citizens fighting for groups far more extreme than | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
Al-Qaeda in Syria. It is not an easy thing to leave your country. That is | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
another thing, the British Government nearly went to fight in | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
Syria, but the point is none of this... But they didn't join a group | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
more extreme than Al-Qaeda, they are beheading people. None of this is | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
taught in schools. I'm confident that none of this is taught in | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
schools. It comes from wider community, it comes from other | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
influences, but in schools I have yet to meet, in 30 years of working | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
in education in Muslim schools and with majority museum schools. Would | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
you like to live in a Sharia state? It depends where it is. You wouldn't | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
like this country to become a Sharia state? I don't think it would. Would | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
you like it to be? Obviously I would like to live under Sharia. In that | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
you would condone stoning of adulteresses? Not really, it is a | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
far bigger issue than that. You can't pick and choose bits and bobs | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
of the Sharia, it is a broad issue, the social strata and circumstances | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
have to be in place. What is the Sharia model for stoning to death. | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
If the stoning conditions were met is that something in principle we | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
should condone. It is not being taught in schools. Have you evidence | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
it is taught in schools? I have been personally called by teachers. We | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
have to wait until the Ofsted report comes out. The allegations are | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
allegations. Is there any evidence this is being taught in schools? | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
Evidence from the teachers who have called Quilliam directly. I don't | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
want to conclude from that evidence, evidence doesn't mean conclusions it | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
is evidence. We are not talking specific schools? Let's wait for the | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
Ofsted report, we have to recognise that extremism among Muslims and the | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
far right is a challenge, they feed into each other, it is a challenge | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
we have to confront. If we can't sit on Newsnight and openly say in | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
principle we don't condone the chopping of hands and stoning of at | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
dolters, if Sharia conditions are met anywhere in the world we have a | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
problem, I wouldn't condone that in principle. But you do condemn the | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
amputation of hands? If it is not according to a due process of law, | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
in any situation, in way. If it is by due processes it is OK to stone | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
people to death? These things are not taught in schools. I have worked | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
in schools. If by due process is it OK to stone people to death by due | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
process. This is not taught in schools, that is what we are here to | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
discuss. You say you have evidence that some extreme views are being | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
taught. That is not a conclusion. I understand that. Is there any | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
evidence that promoting extreme views in schools actually leads to | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
extreme action later of the kind you have already alluded to once? We | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
have got to treat this debate like racism, it is a no brainer if racism | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
spreads in society violent racism can merge east merge from it. We can | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
try to test it scientifically, but most people accept racism spreading | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
in society, even not to violence is bad thing. Likewise with homophobia, | :12:40. | :12:47. | |
if extremist racism and homophobia in a museum context, if these ideas | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
spread through society like stoning people to death. It can't help | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
social cohesion. That is fair point? We are looking at in schools this | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
doesn't happen. This comes from the Internet and all sorts of things. | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
You heard him say that he has had letters from teachers, the | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
Government is worried enough to be mounting investigations? We were | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
talking just earlier about disgruntled people, people who lose | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
their jobs for some sort of reason they can bring vexation and | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
complaints against schools. Schools are there to educate the children to | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
get good exam results, the schools in Birmingham. You can't vouch for | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
every school in the country more than anyone else can? The schools in | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
Birmingham, the focus of the investigation have gone to | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
outstanding and have got outstanding exam results. I have a son who is | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
13. Let me talk, you have had your chance. I'm pleading you for the | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
sake of my son who is 13, in a museum-only son, I have no choice | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
over because I don't live with him. If his teacher is unable to condemn | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
stoning in principle or chopping off the hand, I worry about the future | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
for my son. You are right to worry. Come out and talk about liberal | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
values. You are right to worry, these things have no place in | :14:05. | :14:06. | |
school, because children don't understand these things. You know as | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
well as I do that it is a very, very complex issue, it is not black and | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
white. That is where Crispin Blunt mentioned this morning when things | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
are put in black and white situations those in the grey area | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
could be pushed towards the black area and the dark arts, we have to | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
be very airflow about that. Thank you very much. The Yeoman of the | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
guard, military bands, a guilded coach, it was the State Opening of | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
Parliament again this morning. In her invisible gilded shackles the | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
Queen recited how the coalition Government keeps itself occupied | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
until we get the chance to decide if we are sick of the sight of them. | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
Here are the highlights. All of them! My Lords, pray be seated. | :14:50. | :15:06. | |
Coalition's last stand! My Government's legislative programme | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
will continue to deliver on its long-term plan to build a stronger | :15:10. | :15:17. | |
economy and a fairer society. So, fair to say it wasn't one of the | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
most exciting Queen's Speeches of all time. We're here to explain. I | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
think probably the most unexpected thing that happened was one of the | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
page boys to the Queen, who was eight years old fainted as she went | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
on and on and on. That is not to say it was empty, as some of its | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
crickets would have it. There were pretty decent proposals on pension, | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
things about childcare that the Government has talked about already, | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
privately Government sources admit there was nothing new in this. That | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
has given them and us a problem today. Because the debate ended up | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
the warm-up which we are well into, the general election. The Tories | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
saying you can't trust Labour with the economy, and the Labour Party | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
saying the Tories don't care about ordinary families and the Lib Dems | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
grinning and bearing it. The next Queen's Speech is after the | :16:07. | :16:08. | |
election? That may be the more important one. We don't know what | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
that will be. We do know it is likely to be a coalition Government, | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
if you believe some of the polls. And what we have discovered is | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
actually some very senior people in the Lib Dem party and in the Labour | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
Party have already been having some cosy tete-a-tetes, including | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
discussing some of their shared concerns, particularly on Europe. | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
Now there was a dinner that we found out about in April, with four | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
members of the Clegg and Miliband inner circle, including Nick Clegg's | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
Chief of Staff and Lord Adonis from Labour, one of the people who led | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
the failed attempt to have a Labour-Lib Dem coalition in 2010. | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
They say, members of the group say it was an informal catch-up between | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
old friends. They it was an informal catch-up between | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
discussed Europe as a shared issue, I understand they did absolutely | :16:58. | :16:59. | |
discuss a wider range of issues. I understand they did absolutely | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
really interestingly, when I have been talking to people about this, a | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
very senior Labour source said to me there are all sorts of contacts | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
going on all the time. Some of them through vain, Vince Cable, and also | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
conversations going on between Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg himself. Up | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
until now those two parties have tried very hard to keep these kinds | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
of contacts under wraps, as we hurtle towards the general election, | :17:27. | :17:28. | |
on both sides that will become harder and harder. In the meantime | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
this spat at the top of the Tory Party between Theresa May and | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
Michael Gove, what's happening on that? There is a very serious issue | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
of substance, there is an awful lot of politicking going on here too, it | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
is getting very bitter. David Cameron has summoned the facts in | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
this, trying to crack heads together, in terms of who said what | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
to who when and who is the one who has been stirring the pot, it has | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
become a very bitter row between Theresa May and Michael Gove, who | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
frankly have never got on with each other at all. But the context that | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
we had to see this in is whether or not it sound fair the politics are | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
also, just a couple of weeks ago Theresa May gave a speech that was | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
lauded by people right across the Tory Party. Her potential chances of | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
becoming a lead, should David Cameron exit after the general | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
election have gone up in the last couple of weeks. That is part of | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
what is at play here. She feels strong enough to take the | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
extraordinary step of releasing a letter to the public, containing | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
very damaging criticisms about a rival's department. This isn't | :18:36. | :18:37. | |
something that happened in private. This letter was put into the public | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
domain, which shows you really that she's willing to give a pretty | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
public dressing down to one of her colleagues. David Cameron is not | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
amused. This is what's on the front pages of the papers tomorrow. Not | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
those proposals in the Queen's Speech, although there are the odd | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
couple of photographs of the little page boy who fainted after what he | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
heard the Queen say. Poor kid. Good outfit though! Whoever has the | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
public relations account for the Taliban played a bit of a blinder | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
today, after getting the United States to bane done its trumpeted | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
refusal to negotiate with terrorists, then to get five of its | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
most senior figures released in exchange for one American soldier, | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
it is now released its own video of how the handover happened. In the | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
United States, while there is continuing joy at the family | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
reunification, there is unease about what's happened, and it seems to be | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
growing. On Saturday, somewhere in host province in Afghanistan and | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
overseen by a dozen Taliban affiliated soldiers, Sergeant | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
Bergdahl's five-year captivity came to an end. While being handed over, | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
a Taliban commander can be heard telling the American soldiers not to | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
return to Afghanistan. Warning that if they do, they will be killed. | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
They boast that the Americans were too frightened to remain, and they | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
talked during the handover. President Obama has been sorely | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
criticised for the terms of the handover by Republicans in | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
Washington. Does putting these Taliban fighters back into the | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
fight, endanger the west's security? Even Hillary Clinton, the former | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
Secretary of State, has refused to say that she would have made the | :20:25. | :20:31. | |
same deal. In trading one slowly Sergeant for five senior commanders | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
the Taliban clearly feel they have scored a victory. One American is | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
now free, but could some future President rue the day this deal was | :20:42. | :20:50. | |
done. The author and journalist Charles Glass was himself held | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
hostage by Islamic militants in the 1980s in Lebanon. And the Lieutenant | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
was a counter intelligence officer for 30 years and served in | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
Afghanistan in our Washington studio. What do you make of the | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
Taliban video? It is clearly in their interests to put as good a | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
spin for their side as they can. It was interesting though that they | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
said to him, don't come back, or you will be killed. When the spin from | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
Washington was that he had gone over to them and had Stockholm syndrome | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
and was taking their side. If they were going to kill him it doesn't | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
seem as if that was the case. What did you make of it? I think the | :21:31. | :21:37. | |
Taliban today is not the Taliban that was there in 2001 when we | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
invaded. They are a sophisticated organisation that understands social | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
media and manipulating messages. There is an American reporter from | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
major network that said publicly on national American TV that the | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
Taliban is more co-operative than the White House. This was from a | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
friendly network to the President. The Taliban is trying to get the | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
most out of this event, they are, and as you in your introduction you | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
are talking about the fact they are getting back five very senior | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
commanders, for one individual who essentially left our side under | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
question questionable circumstances. The Taliban is reaping the benefit | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
of how they played this. Do you read it as a Taliban gain? It is a gain | :22:21. | :22:27. | |
for Bowe Bergdahl, he gets to go free, as a former hostage there is | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
nothing better than those first steps of freedom. The second, | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
President Obama initially had a bit of a propaganda victory having done | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
the trade-off saying he wouldn't leave anyone behind. That seems to | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
have back fired on him because of the approbium attached to the | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
exchange and he didn't inform Congress about it. The Republicans | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
criticising him most severely knows that the Regan administration did | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
the same with the hostages in Lebanon. The Iran scandal was all | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
about selling Iran weapons, giving Iran weapons in exchange for | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
hostages in Lebanon against American rule. Do you have Anwar site that | :23:05. | :23:13. | |
this -- an Anxiety this will come back and haunt American Presidents, | :23:14. | :23:21. | |
Lieutenant? I'm Tony too, sorry. The issue here for the American | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
Presidents in the future, they have to consider how that plays out. The | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
Iran issue was about material not individuals. In this case based on | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
my own direct knowledge there were other options on the table. Not only | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
military option that is related to finding a way to leverage other | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
folks to get Bergdahl back. He was held by the network in Pakistan. | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
That is very critical to the ecautious which has -- equation, | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
which hasn't been fully explored by anyone in that point in time. Go on | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
about the principle, the principle of doing deals with terrorists and | :23:58. | :24:04. | |
swapping prisoners? In the case of the Taliban there is a real issue by | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
these individuals, let's remember in Afghanistan there has always been a | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
retrenchment and allowing the Taliban to be reintegrated into | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
society. We have been allowing them to go back into society. With that | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
said it is these five individuals who were captured under the original | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
authorisation to military force, and these five individuals had direct | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
links to the Al-Qaeda folks who conducted the 9/11 attacks. That is | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
what the problem is with members of Congress and staff. I was over on | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
the hill talking to them yesterday and today, there are real issues | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
regarding these five more than other elements of the Taliban already | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
released. Do you think then there was a miscalculation of what the | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
effect of the exchange would be? Absolutely. I have been monitoring | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
this from day one, literally, and the issue regarding Bergdahl is | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
becoming clear, that he was not a pristine individual, there are | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
issues about how he left his post. That has become a very hard pill for | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
the American public and military to swallow. On top of that the | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
violation of law. All the lawyers I spoke to said there was a clear | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
violation by the President to allow the Taliban to go without | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
consultations to Congress, and most importantly, when you look at the | :25:21. | :25:28. | |
overall President press sent set by the President, will -- precedent set | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
about gaining leverage with hostages. What do you think the | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
legacy of the transaction will be? If the United States leaves | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
Afghanistan then its soldiers won't be vulnerable to being captured by | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
the Taliban or anyone else, perhaps in future wars, | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
the Taliban or anyone else, perhaps war are always taken by both sides | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
in war. It is nothing new, and prisoner exchanges are nothing new. | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
This is something that is occurring just before the withdrawal of combat | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
troops from Afghanistan, and in that context it looks different, doesn't | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
it? Not if you think of Vietnam. Remember the first thing that | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
happened as American troops pulled out, was the American prisoners came | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
back too. That was a defeat? At that time it wasn't being sold as a | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
defeat. And this time it isn't sold as a defeat either. In both cases it | :26:21. | :26:28. | |
probably is a defeat. Time to hear from Kevin Spacey, not only is he | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
one of the most famous actors in the world, but almost at the end of the | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
time as Artistic Director at the Old Vic. In the House of Cards he place | :26:39. | :26:46. | |
a snake making his way in American politics, is nothing like his real | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
incarnation, as some sort of demigod, but also an actor revered | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
for his devotion to British drama. We met him earlier today, be warned | :26:56. | :27:02. | |
he likes the odd Anglo-Saxonism. Here is the head of that ignoble | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
traitor, the dangerous and unsuspected Hastings. It is not | :27:08. | :27:15. | |
every day Newsnight is in the presence of Hollywood royalty. So | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
dear I loved the man (laughter) It is the Queen's Speech this morning. | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
It was all a bit of a nightmare getting here. But we're here. Kevin | :27:27. | :27:36. | |
Spacey has a film to promote, a behind the scenes documentary of | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
taking his production of Richard II I around the world. What do you | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
think the state of British theatre is now? There is lots of places | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
where there is tremendous growth, really interesting ideas, really, | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
you know, even if shows don't work the ideas behind shows, why people | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
are trying to work on certain issues and tackle certain kinds of theatre | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
is very exciting. I think it is in an incredibly healthy place. It is | :28:06. | :28:08. | |
exciting to be a part of it. Will you be sad to leave? I'm never going | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
to leave, it is not like I'm going to get on a plane and lock off. I | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
will always be a part of this country and always have a place in | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
London, and it is a huge part of my life. Back in the 90s when he won an | :28:21. | :28:28. | |
Oscar for American Beauty, you might have thought Spacey would have opted | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
for Hollywood more than anything else. It is the oddest thing, I feel | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
like I'm in a coma for 20 years and just now waking up. Instead he chose | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
a ten-year stint running London's Old Vic theatre. I was at a point in | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
my life where I didn't want to pursue the same dream, and everyone | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
wanted me to pursue the same dream because that is what people are | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
supposed to do. I was like I did it, I had this unbelievable run of | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
making movies and films that I'm unbelievably grateful. Some will | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
stand the test of time, and others will thankfully be forgotten. My job | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
is to clear the pipes and keep the sludge moving. Now he's better known | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
on the small green for the American political -- screen for the American | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
political drama House of Cards, a stand-out on Netflix. Why do you | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
think the best writing at the moment is on TV? Because movies stopped | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
making drama. What do you mean? The ground dried up. Somewhere at the | :29:28. | :29:35. | |
end, right into the 2000, the motion picture studios for the most part | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
started to focus on comic book characters, and that is what they | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
are driven by. And real, incredible, brilliantly written, directed, acted | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
character drama moved to a very fertile ground which, is television. | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
Because creative people will go where they can work. And where they | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
can create. It hasn't surprised me at all. With a third series in the | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
pipeline, the work on House of Cards, where Spacey's Democrat, | :30:06. | :30:13. | |
constantly moves for power in Washington, while teasing the | :30:14. | :30:21. | |
audience. I pity him. If the West Wing is an idealised look at | :30:22. | :30:29. | |
politicians and House of Cards is the other side, which is closer to | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
the truth? We are closer to the truth. I make a joke now and make it | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
sound like President Clinton said it and he didn't, but I like pretending | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
he did. What do they do on the House of Cardses, 99% is true, and the 1% | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
wrong is you could never get an education bill get passed that fast. | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
Some have said it is cynical a other politicians have said it is closer | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
than you would like to imagine. Does that depress you? Yes. It doesn't | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
depress me because you know in the sense that wow that is shocking | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
news, it depresses me because it makes me think that people don't | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
want to go into public service because what is the point. And | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
public service is an unbelievably important thing. People say to me | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
would you run for politics and office, I'm like, are you kidding | :31:23. | :31:31. | |
mement I like to get things done. Despite the programme's cynicism | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
about the political cynicism, we know President Obama likes it. I | :31:36. | :31:45. | |
wish things were that ruthless! Has Obama disappointed you? No. I think | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
it is incredibly difficult to get anything done when people who are | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
basically in control of the house of representatives have made a | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
declaration that they will stop everything you wanted to try to | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
achieve. You know you can only play ball if everyone is playing | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
together. It doesn't surprise me. Do you think Frank Underwood have any | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
advice for him? He would kill a lot of them! When you finish at the Old | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
Vic, what else, back to shoe salesman, stand-up? I don't know | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
what's next, that is one of the most exciting things. Obviously I'm | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
enjoying House of Cards and that may continue beyond a third season. I | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
don't know. That is actually thrilling not knowing. It is | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
thrilling. Don't know yet. Now the 25th anniversary of the most | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
notorious demonstration of the brutality of the Chinese state | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
passed today in Beijing with hardly a mum merit. That was because the -- | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
mummur, that is because the police and associated thugs saw to it there | :32:50. | :32:58. | |
was no more than a mummur. Thousands of pro-democracy were demonstrators | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
were killed and the Government maintain it was no more than a few | :33:02. | :33:09. | |
hundred. One photo remains the great image of the uprising. Tank Man | :33:10. | :33:16. | |
depicts a man holding his shopping bags confronting an immpossibly | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
menacing row of armoured vehicles. The photographer was Jeff Widener. | :33:22. | :33:29. | |
This is his story. I got there a week before the crackdown, and it | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
was a very lively event, almost a carnival atmosphere. You had | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
children dancing and people were singing. Even policemen were singing | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
together with the protestors. It was well organised and I think everybody | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
knew this couldn't keep going on forever. I didn't think it was going | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
on forever. We were all sort of wondering what the Chinese | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
Government was going to do to the protesters. One picture that I | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
photographed of a woman being caught in the middle of many soldiers near | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
the Great Hall of the People in my mind is where it started. The | :34:04. | :34:12. | |
evening of June #rd was the time when things started heating up and | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
so all the protesters started bringing steel barricades and | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
putting them in the middle of the street to block the advances of the | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
soldiers who might come that night. I was talking to my reporter and | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
then we heard this noise of metal crashing on the ground. And we're | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
all thinking what's going on. What's happening. Then this armoured | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
personnel carrier comes around the corner so fast there is sparks | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
coming off the threads, everyone is running and screaming and I jumped | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
into the ivy, I had to pull myself up and go running after this | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
armoured car and I wanted to run in the opposite directionment when I | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
got there my battery power and my flash was almost zero, I could take | :34:56. | :35:03. | |
one picture every 60 seconds. So imagine on one of the largest | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
stories in the 20th century and you can only take one picture every | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
minute and all hell is breaking loose. One man was on the ground on | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
fire, rolling around, another man was helping him, and I'm going come | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
on, come on, come on, and the flash would not recycle, and I'm waiting | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
what seemed to be an eternity, I lifted it to my eye and the minute I | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
lifted it me-to-my eye, I look down and blood is all over me I had a | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
massive concussion from a brick, from a protestor. I looked at the | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
back of the armoured car on fire and this is now getting very close to | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
midnight, and then out came a soldier to surrender, he has his | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
hands up in the air and I still remember that pristine look of his | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
uniform, how pressed it was, as clear as day in my mind, I | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
remembered so clearly, and the mob looked at him for a second, and then | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
they slowly moved in and they had pipes and weapons of all kind, and | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
they started beating on him. And I looked at that and I couldn't take a | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
picture. And I thought to myself, I'm going to lose the Pulitzer | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
Prize, and then I thought I should be ashamed for thinking something | :36:15. | :36:27. | |
like that because he's about to die. I was not staying Tebay engining | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
Hotel, but the Beijing Hotel was the location closest to the Tiananmen | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
Square. This is where journalists were going to try to get some kind | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
of an idea about what was going on. And everybody was scared. I have | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
never been so scared of all the assignments I have never been so | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
scared as this story. Fortunately I managed to get to the Beijing hotel. | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
And we made it to the roof. I went out to the balcony, and I kept | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
looking at the bullet hole over my head. There was one bullet hole it | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
kept reminding me I could easily get picked off by a sniper, it was very | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
unsettling to be leaning over a balcony and trying to shoot over a | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
wall. The man walks out in the middle of the street with his | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
shopping bag and I told Kirk he's screwing up my composition, and he's | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
saying they will shoot him. I'm focussing for the man to be shot, | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
I'm waiting and waiting, I know it is going to happen, I'm waiting and | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
focussing and nothing happens. And then I'm thinking this picture is | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
too far away, it is too far away, I'm looking at the bed and thinking | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
do I take a gamble and get the teleconverter. I gamble and I put it | :37:42. | :37:56. | |
on the lens I go 1-2-3 (click) I wonder what happened to him like | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
anyone, the big question is, it is shocking after a quarter of a | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
century, not only do we not know where he is or his relative, you | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
would think a relative would come forward and what happened to the | :38:08. | :38:09. | |
tank crew, what happened to the driver, what happened to the crew, | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
they disappeared off the face of the planet. Those guys have lives. They | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
have got families, where are they? Where is everybody? It is like the | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
twilight zone, they just disappeared. Speaking to us from | :38:22. | :38:29. | |
Taiwan is the Tiananmen Square protest leader. With me here in the | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
studio is the economist and lecturer at the LSE, and the author of When | :38:33. | :38:40. | |
China Rules The World, Martin Jakes. Can we come to you in Taiwan first. | :38:41. | :38:48. | |
You intervened and spoke to the premier, what do you think you | :38:49. | :38:58. | |
achieved in that protest? Any protest has the same logic, you | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
apply pressure and hope your opponent or Government can maybe | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
come up to make the right choice. And then in this case the Chinese | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
Communist Party have failed to do that. They chose the most unlike but | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
actually the worst of all the options. And then when the meeting, | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
when we were summoned to the Great Hall of the People to meet with one | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
of the leaders, we don't know home, and then he came to meet with us, | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
and I thought we are meeting the premier. Maybe this is the moment we | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
can make that pressure work, you know, finally the pressure brought | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
the supreme leaders, so we can tell them what we really want. What we | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
wanted was dialogue, and hopefully from that dialogue something can | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
emerge, something like freedom of expression and then maybe freedom of | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
assembly. And then he gave us this monolougue and then there were going | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
on and gone, and he's saying he's late. I thought, wow, OK, premier | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
being a gentleman, but then he immediately turned that to us, and | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
said because he's late for 20 minutes because Beijing is in such | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
chaos, then he blamed the students for the chaos. So the monologue | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
going on, the TV cameras are shooting, we don't know if it is | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
live broadcasting, but we know this doesn't look good, this is not what | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
we hoped for, this is not the dialogue we are asking for. So with | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
a brief exchange with the students sitting next to me, and then we | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
decided to interrupt him. And I did it. So I think that will at least | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
show the people in front of the TV a clear message that we are not here | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
to be talked down at. We're here to give the Government a lecture. So we | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
told, I told the premier that yes, you are late, but you are not 20 | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
minutes late, we called upon you a month ago. You are a month late. So | :41:00. | :41:07. | |
I guess he' never prepared for being electured by a 21-year-old. So he | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
was stung, and that has been broadcast nationwide that evening. | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
Do you think you achieved anything in this protest? It is a big | :41:17. | :41:28. | |
question, we all know the result of that, bloodshed in China. But if the | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
20th century, to be recorded, I'm sure, antifascism, and the | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
anticommunist aggression will be the two major campaigns to record, and | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
then China, the Chinese students, we took on the streets, basically | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
started the decisive battle of the second campaign, and then that | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
campaign has reached victory in Eastern Europe, in Soviet European, | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
did we achieve that? I think in part, yes, we contributed to that. | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
But unfortunately we are left out, although in the last 25 years the | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
Chinese Government have to give in to some of the demands we made. | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
Never really what we wanted. But we are, yes. How live an issue is this, | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
if the events of Tiananmen Square, so long ago, how live an issue is it | :42:21. | :42:27. | |
still in China? Today it is you know, it is not a topic that | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
everyone discusses in society. We don't really talk about it we don't | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
feel t but I think what is important is the tremendous economic | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
development did to an extent dwarf the event itself. What about the | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
claim that the Chinese Government acted as it did that it suppressed | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
the protest and made it possible for the Chinese economy to boom along in | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
the way it has done since, is that true? I think that instability, | :42:59. | :43:07. | |
major instability is an enemy of economic development, particularly | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
for a developing country. Not just in China and what you can think of. | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
The problem for the leader of China then was unity was fundamental in | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
his view for economic development. The reason in way things got | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
completely out of control in the way they did, is the leadership became | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
divided and eventually it let to this tragedy, it was a tragedy that | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
so many people died. But what is fascinating is within extremely | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
short space of time, historically speaking, the country began to | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
resume its very rapid growth. Are the two things connected? | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
Absolutely, stability is critical. The fact is China lifted 800 million | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
people out of poverty. That is also a fundamental human right. And we | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
could not have achieved it without stability. You can query about the | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
measures and the means by which we got there, but stability, | :44:06. | :44:15. | |
absolutely. It comes from democracy, communism has been the major factor | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
for Chinese instability. What do you, as a matter of interest, what | :44:22. | :44:30. | |
do you do now? What do you do now? I'm a determined activist, I'm a | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
determined dissident. What do you do for a living? Just like other fellow | :44:34. | :44:40. | |
dissidents in China, for a living, of course being a dissident doesn't | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
put the bread on the table, I'm an investment banker! I think QEDeh! | :44:45. | :44:52. | |
That is the point isn't it? Was it really, would it really have been | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
impossible for China to have married economic freedom with political | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
freedom do you think? It is really easy to talk about the counter | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
faction, we don't know what would have happened, but what I think | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
against gets not emphasised enough is the major improvement of the last | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
20 years, and democratic elements have been introduced in society, we | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
see through the microblogs and the Government responding more to | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
people's demands. Why is it is not a live issue, this was a very, very | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
powerfully emotional story, that went right around the world of | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
people trying to demand freedom and being, and having their protests | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
suppressed? Why is it not resonating in China? Clearly it was an | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
important moment, but in terms of China as a whole, I think in the | :45:44. | :45:51. | |
west we probably greatly exaggerated its significance. It wasn't a | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
China-wide movement that drew in large numbers of people. The | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
extraordinary thing if you look back now, 1989, how did we interpret | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
1989, Tiananmen Square first, Folaued by the fall of the Berlin | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union, the end of communism, that is | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
how we interpret it in the west. We were right about the Soviet Union | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
and Eastern Europe but wrong about China. What happened was very | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
quickly China's growth was resumed and the Chinese Communist Party has | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
presided over the greatest economic transformation in history. History, | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
the world does not look the same now as it did then. In China, that | :46:37. | :46:44. | |
image, t photograph, Tank Man, the young man stopping the prosession of | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
tanks, is that known or resonated in China? Plenty of people, a lot of | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
people are travelling abroad, students are educated abroad and see | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
this picture, while it is officially not present. The knowledge of that | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
existence of that photo is very much in the society. Thank you all very | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
much. That's unfortunately all we are allowed to have time for | :47:08. | :47:09. |