04/06/2014 Newsnight


04/06/2014

The row between the home secretary and the education secretary, the release of Bowe Bergdahl, Kevin Spacey and Tianamen Square 25 years on. With Jeremy Paxman.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 04/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

demands to know what exactly is going on between the Education

:00:09.:00:11.

Secretary and the Home Secretary. At the same time s had minions say that

:00:12.:00:17.

efforts to fight Muslim extremism are co-ordinated and effective. Now

:00:18.:00:23.

Newsnight has been told how when the Home Office cut funding for an

:00:24.:00:27.

anti-extremist organisation, Michael Gove's department stepped in to help

:00:28.:00:33.

the organisation out. Some senior civil servants at the Home Office

:00:34.:00:37.

says the Department for Education has been running what they call a

:00:38.:00:41.

parallel security policy. The chairman of that group is here. The

:00:42.:00:46.

Taliban's media studies department turns a prisoner trade into a

:00:47.:00:57.

marketing opportunity. And Kevin spacey considers his future. I'm

:00:58.:01:05.

never going to leave, I not get on plane and BEEP off, I will always be

:01:06.:01:08.

part of the country. The photographer who caught this moment

:01:09.:01:12.

tells us the story behind the picture.

:01:13.:01:22.

There is no, repeat, no feud at the top of the Government. The chairman

:01:23.:01:25.

of the Conservative Party tells us so, as does the Downing Street

:01:26.:01:29.

propaganda machine. So the testy exchanges between the Home Secretary

:01:30.:01:34.

and the Education Secretary, about Muslim extremism, signify nothing

:01:35.:01:39.

beyond a difference of emphasis? Michael Gove thinks Theresa May is

:01:40.:01:43.

an excellent Home Secretary, it must be true, an unnamed person close to

:01:44.:01:49.

him said it! But beneath all this froth is a very serious issue.

:01:50.:01:53.

Before we talk about it we have this report. My Lords and members of the

:01:54.:01:58.

House of Commons. This was supposed to be the story of the day. The

:01:59.:02:05.

Queen's Speech. But instead, the main political event is centered on

:02:06.:02:11.

schools in a mainly Pakistani neighbourhood in Birmingham. That is

:02:12.:02:15.

because Theresa May, the Home Secretary, last night sent a rather

:02:16.:02:18.

aggressive letter to the Department for Education about radicalism and

:02:19.:02:23.

extremism in schools. And, in doing so, she turned some local

:02:24.:02:27.

difficulties in Birmingham into a national problem for Michael Gove,

:02:28.:02:32.

the Education Secretary. And his outriders, in turn, have thrown some

:02:33.:02:39.

barbes at Miss May. This is also a skirmish in a long turf war on

:02:40.:02:44.

terror policy. Newsnight can exclusively reveal one key chapter

:02:45.:02:50.

in that story. In 2011 the Quilliam Foundation, a counter extremism

:02:51.:02:55.

think-tank close to Mr Gove, appealed to the Home Office for

:02:56.:02:59.

?150,000, saying it needed it to stay hope, the Home Office refused.

:03:00.:03:04.

The principle we want to uphold is Quilliam should be free to

:03:05.:03:09.

contribute to the wider debate, but not depend on Government fund to go

:03:10.:03:13.

do so. Some Government officials feel the tough decision was

:03:14.:03:18.

undermined a few weeks later when the Department for Education decided

:03:19.:03:22.

to give the think-tank ?150,000. Some senior officials at the Home

:03:23.:03:25.

Office said the Department for Education has been running what they

:03:26.:03:29.

call a "parallel security policy". The fact the fight has been going on

:03:30.:03:34.

for so long explains the vitriol on display this week. Next week Ofsted,

:03:35.:03:39.

the education inspectorate is expected to put five Birmingham

:03:40.:03:44.

schools into special measure, the culmination of a wave of inspections

:03:45.:03:47.

across the city, Folauing on from the publication of the so called

:03:48.:03:51.

Trojan horse documents. A letter, now proved to be a forgery, setting

:03:52.:03:56.

out details of a plot by Muslim hardliners to take over schools all

:03:57.:04:01.

across the city. Fears of a broader conspiracy have dissolved. But Miss

:04:02.:04:06.

May has turned the heat up Mr Michael Gove, in her letter,

:04:07.:04:11.

referring to concerns about extremism she wrote:

:04:12.:04:19.

Is that critque fair. Much will concern this school Park View. It

:04:20.:04:25.

was blocked from opening a free school by the Department for

:04:26.:04:31.

Education on security grounds. But it wasn't intervened on, nor was it

:04:32.:04:35.

stopped taking over another two state schools. Still we do not know

:04:36.:04:39.

precisely what intelligence officials actually had. Michael Gove

:04:40.:04:45.

is a pretty unlikely person to be accused of being soft on extremism.

:04:46.:04:49.

Over the past few years he and Miss May have been locked in an argument

:04:50.:04:53.

about this issue, and it is him who is usually cast as the hardliner. In

:04:54.:04:58.

fact in 2006 he wrote a book about this issue, in a chapter headed "the

:04:59.:05:05.

Trojan horse", he wrote "in the struggle against extremism, the

:05:06.:05:09.

British state has not only dealt effectively with those openly

:05:10.:05:12.

committed to Jihad, it has also failed to tackle the underlying

:05:13.:05:22.

idealistic currents that favour extremism". Youngsters can be

:05:23.:05:26.

brainwashed at a young age and be taught to dislike and dehumanise

:05:27.:05:31.

others. This may not teach somebody to become a terrorist or Jihadi, but

:05:32.:05:35.

from there to going and committing a terrorist act is a very, very short

:05:36.:05:40.

step. It has the potential to drive somebody towards an action in a much

:05:41.:05:44.

more efficient manner for the recruiters. Miss May and her allies

:05:45.:05:53.

want the focus to be on more explicitly violent extremism. One of

:05:54.:05:56.

the things Michael Gove apparently said is we shouldn't be fighting the

:05:57.:06:02.

crocodiles on the edge of the swamp but drain the swamp. That is a very

:06:03.:06:06.

black and white approach, and you may find there are a whole bunch of

:06:07.:06:10.

animals in the swamp you are forcing to choose to be for origins you. If

:06:11.:06:14.

you force them into that position you may be uncomfortable with the

:06:15.:06:17.

numbers lining up on the opposite side. Then you have made your

:06:18.:06:21.

position worse not better. The Prime Minister is now intervening in this

:06:22.:06:25.

extraordinary spat. But not before one important piece of damage has

:06:26.:06:29.

been done to the Tories. Miss May has given Labour a hand. Her letter

:06:30.:06:33.

says that the allegations relating to schools in Birmingham raise

:06:34.:06:37.

serious questions about the quality of school governance and oversight.

:06:38.:06:42.

That is rather help offul to the opposition which claims that the

:06:43.:06:45.

coalition has weakened school supervision. Playground tiffes can

:06:46.:06:53.

do some real damage to political parties.

:06:54.:06:57.

We have the chairman of the Quilliam Foundation, and a Lib Dem

:06:58.:07:00.

parliamentary candidate. With us too is the founder and chairman of

:07:01.:07:04.

trustees of a private Muslim school in Leicester. Is it possible

:07:05.:07:10.

gentleman to define what extremism is? I think essentially generally it

:07:11.:07:14.

is the desire to impose one's opinion on anyone else. Within the

:07:15.:07:18.

Muslim context we have to accept there is such a thing as extremism,

:07:19.:07:23.

we are calling it Islamism, and that can be defined as the desire to

:07:24.:07:29.

impose interpretation of Islam over society by law. How does it manifest

:07:30.:07:33.

itself? The desire to impose Islam over society by law according to

:07:34.:07:38.

one's interpretation can impose itself in cases like Sudan this

:07:39.:07:44.

month, where a lady was sentence for blasphemy. In this country?

:07:45.:07:48.

Segregation, in public institutions, Sharia patrols walking around in

:07:49.:07:52.

what they have labelled "Muslim areas", it can define itself in all

:07:53.:07:58.

sorts of honour killings and FGM. People interpreting the religion, no

:07:59.:08:02.

sir the religion itself, it is extreme interpretation of the

:08:03.:08:05.

religion. Would you accept that interpretation of extremism? It is

:08:06.:08:10.

important fact you mentioned. The definition has never been said by

:08:11.:08:13.

the Government and it is very flexible. That causes problems by

:08:14.:08:16.

schools, on the one hand we are told to fight and prevent extremism, but

:08:17.:08:21.

we are not told what it is. I think you would find that most Muslims

:08:22.:08:25.

within the community are anti-extremist as well. They don't

:08:26.:08:28.

see what they do as being extremism? Do you think the Government is

:08:29.:08:32.

getting it wrong? I think they are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

:08:33.:08:40.

This reaction and response to what is an anonymous letter and denounced

:08:41.:08:44.

as a fake by most people. To come in like this with anti-Tory and counter

:08:45.:08:48.

terrorism. Everything that the Muslims are doing these days,

:08:49.:08:52.

including education, is seen through the lens of antiterrorism and

:08:53.:08:56.

security. We have to accept in our communities there is a challenge

:08:57.:09:00.

that we face that, yes, the vast majority of Muslims aren't violent,

:09:01.:09:04.

but we do have to deal with that vocal minority who have come to

:09:05.:09:08.

dominate the discourse of our communities, who promote, for

:09:09.:09:14.

example, in an ideal state they want homosexuals to be killed, they

:09:15.:09:19.

promote adulters to be stoned to death and call for the amputation of

:09:20.:09:22.

the hand of the thief. And they believe in these things in principle

:09:23.:09:25.

and are calling them. They build the mood music to which suicide bombers

:09:26.:09:29.

dance. There is a reason why we currently have about 400 British

:09:30.:09:33.

born and raised citizens fighting for groups far more extreme than

:09:34.:09:37.

Al-Qaeda in Syria. It is not an easy thing to leave your country. That is

:09:38.:09:40.

another thing, the British Government nearly went to fight in

:09:41.:09:43.

Syria, but the point is none of this... But they didn't join a group

:09:44.:09:49.

more extreme than Al-Qaeda, they are beheading people. None of this is

:09:50.:09:53.

taught in schools. I'm confident that none of this is taught in

:09:54.:09:56.

schools. It comes from wider community, it comes from other

:09:57.:09:59.

influences, but in schools I have yet to meet, in 30 years of working

:10:00.:10:07.

in education in Muslim schools and with majority museum schools. Would

:10:08.:10:11.

you like to live in a Sharia state? It depends where it is. You wouldn't

:10:12.:10:15.

like this country to become a Sharia state? I don't think it would. Would

:10:16.:10:19.

you like it to be? Obviously I would like to live under Sharia. In that

:10:20.:10:26.

you would condone stoning of adulteresses? Not really, it is a

:10:27.:10:31.

far bigger issue than that. You can't pick and choose bits and bobs

:10:32.:10:37.

of the Sharia, it is a broad issue, the social strata and circumstances

:10:38.:10:44.

have to be in place. What is the Sharia model for stoning to death.

:10:45.:10:49.

If the stoning conditions were met is that something in principle we

:10:50.:10:53.

should condone. It is not being taught in schools. Have you evidence

:10:54.:10:57.

it is taught in schools? I have been personally called by teachers. We

:10:58.:11:01.

have to wait until the Ofsted report comes out. The allegations are

:11:02.:11:05.

allegations. Is there any evidence this is being taught in schools?

:11:06.:11:08.

Evidence from the teachers who have called Quilliam directly. I don't

:11:09.:11:12.

want to conclude from that evidence, evidence doesn't mean conclusions it

:11:13.:11:17.

is evidence. We are not talking specific schools? Let's wait for the

:11:18.:11:21.

Ofsted report, we have to recognise that extremism among Muslims and the

:11:22.:11:25.

far right is a challenge, they feed into each other, it is a challenge

:11:26.:11:29.

we have to confront. If we can't sit on Newsnight and openly say in

:11:30.:11:33.

principle we don't condone the chopping of hands and stoning of at

:11:34.:11:37.

dolters, if Sharia conditions are met anywhere in the world we have a

:11:38.:11:41.

problem, I wouldn't condone that in principle. But you do condemn the

:11:42.:11:47.

amputation of hands? If it is not according to a due process of law,

:11:48.:11:51.

in any situation, in way. If it is by due processes it is OK to stone

:11:52.:11:55.

people to death? These things are not taught in schools. I have worked

:11:56.:11:59.

in schools. If by due process is it OK to stone people to death by due

:12:00.:12:03.

process. This is not taught in schools, that is what we are here to

:12:04.:12:06.

discuss. You say you have evidence that some extreme views are being

:12:07.:12:10.

taught. That is not a conclusion. I understand that. Is there any

:12:11.:12:15.

evidence that promoting extreme views in schools actually leads to

:12:16.:12:21.

extreme action later of the kind you have already alluded to once? We

:12:22.:12:25.

have got to treat this debate like racism, it is a no brainer if racism

:12:26.:12:30.

spreads in society violent racism can merge east merge from it. We can

:12:31.:12:35.

try to test it scientifically, but most people accept racism spreading

:12:36.:12:39.

in society, even not to violence is bad thing. Likewise with homophobia,

:12:40.:12:47.

if extremist racism and homophobia in a museum context, if these ideas

:12:48.:12:51.

spread through society like stoning people to death. It can't help

:12:52.:12:55.

social cohesion. That is fair point? We are looking at in schools this

:12:56.:12:58.

doesn't happen. This comes from the Internet and all sorts of things.

:12:59.:13:02.

You heard him say that he has had letters from teachers, the

:13:03.:13:06.

Government is worried enough to be mounting investigations? We were

:13:07.:13:10.

talking just earlier about disgruntled people, people who lose

:13:11.:13:15.

their jobs for some sort of reason they can bring vexation and

:13:16.:13:21.

complaints against schools. Schools are there to educate the children to

:13:22.:13:24.

get good exam results, the schools in Birmingham. You can't vouch for

:13:25.:13:29.

every school in the country more than anyone else can? The schools in

:13:30.:13:34.

Birmingham, the focus of the investigation have gone to

:13:35.:13:37.

outstanding and have got outstanding exam results. I have a son who is

:13:38.:13:42.

13. Let me talk, you have had your chance. I'm pleading you for the

:13:43.:13:47.

sake of my son who is 13, in a museum-only son, I have no choice

:13:48.:13:51.

over because I don't live with him. If his teacher is unable to condemn

:13:52.:13:55.

stoning in principle or chopping off the hand, I worry about the future

:13:56.:14:00.

for my son. You are right to worry. Come out and talk about liberal

:14:01.:14:04.

values. You are right to worry, these things have no place in

:14:05.:14:06.

school, because children don't understand these things. You know as

:14:07.:14:11.

well as I do that it is a very, very complex issue, it is not black and

:14:12.:14:16.

white. That is where Crispin Blunt mentioned this morning when things

:14:17.:14:19.

are put in black and white situations those in the grey area

:14:20.:14:22.

could be pushed towards the black area and the dark arts, we have to

:14:23.:14:25.

be very airflow about that. Thank you very much. The Yeoman of the

:14:26.:14:32.

guard, military bands, a guilded coach, it was the State Opening of

:14:33.:14:36.

Parliament again this morning. In her invisible gilded shackles the

:14:37.:14:41.

Queen recited how the coalition Government keeps itself occupied

:14:42.:14:45.

until we get the chance to decide if we are sick of the sight of them.

:14:46.:14:49.

Here are the highlights. All of them! My Lords, pray be seated.

:14:50.:15:06.

Coalition's last stand! My Government's legislative programme

:15:07.:15:09.

will continue to deliver on its long-term plan to build a stronger

:15:10.:15:17.

economy and a fairer society. So, fair to say it wasn't one of the

:15:18.:15:21.

most exciting Queen's Speeches of all time. We're here to explain. I

:15:22.:15:26.

think probably the most unexpected thing that happened was one of the

:15:27.:15:29.

page boys to the Queen, who was eight years old fainted as she went

:15:30.:15:33.

on and on and on. That is not to say it was empty, as some of its

:15:34.:15:37.

crickets would have it. There were pretty decent proposals on pension,

:15:38.:15:40.

things about childcare that the Government has talked about already,

:15:41.:15:44.

privately Government sources admit there was nothing new in this. That

:15:45.:15:47.

has given them and us a problem today. Because the debate ended up

:15:48.:15:54.

the warm-up which we are well into, the general election. The Tories

:15:55.:15:57.

saying you can't trust Labour with the economy, and the Labour Party

:15:58.:16:01.

saying the Tories don't care about ordinary families and the Lib Dems

:16:02.:16:06.

grinning and bearing it. The next Queen's Speech is after the

:16:07.:16:08.

election? That may be the more important one. We don't know what

:16:09.:16:12.

that will be. We do know it is likely to be a coalition Government,

:16:13.:16:15.

if you believe some of the polls. And what we have discovered is

:16:16.:16:19.

actually some very senior people in the Lib Dem party and in the Labour

:16:20.:16:24.

Party have already been having some cosy tete-a-tetes, including

:16:25.:16:27.

discussing some of their shared concerns, particularly on Europe.

:16:28.:16:30.

Now there was a dinner that we found out about in April, with four

:16:31.:16:36.

members of the Clegg and Miliband inner circle, including Nick Clegg's

:16:37.:16:40.

Chief of Staff and Lord Adonis from Labour, one of the people who led

:16:41.:16:46.

the failed attempt to have a Labour-Lib Dem coalition in 2010.

:16:47.:16:50.

They say, members of the group say it was an informal catch-up between

:16:51.:16:54.

old friends. They it was an informal catch-up between

:16:55.:16:57.

discussed Europe as a shared issue, I understand they did absolutely

:16:58.:16:59.

discuss a wider range of issues. I understand they did absolutely

:17:00.:17:03.

really interestingly, when I have been talking to people about this, a

:17:04.:17:06.

very senior Labour source said to me there are all sorts of contacts

:17:07.:17:11.

going on all the time. Some of them through vain, Vince Cable, and also

:17:12.:17:17.

conversations going on between Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg himself. Up

:17:18.:17:21.

until now those two parties have tried very hard to keep these kinds

:17:22.:17:26.

of contacts under wraps, as we hurtle towards the general election,

:17:27.:17:28.

on both sides that will become harder and harder. In the meantime

:17:29.:17:33.

this spat at the top of the Tory Party between Theresa May and

:17:34.:17:36.

Michael Gove, what's happening on that? There is a very serious issue

:17:37.:17:40.

of substance, there is an awful lot of politicking going on here too, it

:17:41.:17:43.

is getting very bitter. David Cameron has summoned the facts in

:17:44.:17:48.

this, trying to crack heads together, in terms of who said what

:17:49.:17:51.

to who when and who is the one who has been stirring the pot, it has

:17:52.:17:56.

become a very bitter row between Theresa May and Michael Gove, who

:17:57.:17:59.

frankly have never got on with each other at all. But the context that

:18:00.:18:05.

we had to see this in is whether or not it sound fair the politics are

:18:06.:18:09.

also, just a couple of weeks ago Theresa May gave a speech that was

:18:10.:18:12.

lauded by people right across the Tory Party. Her potential chances of

:18:13.:18:19.

becoming a lead, should David Cameron exit after the general

:18:20.:18:22.

election have gone up in the last couple of weeks. That is part of

:18:23.:18:25.

what is at play here. She feels strong enough to take the

:18:26.:18:29.

extraordinary step of releasing a letter to the public, containing

:18:30.:18:35.

very damaging criticisms about a rival's department. This isn't

:18:36.:18:37.

something that happened in private. This letter was put into the public

:18:38.:18:41.

domain, which shows you really that she's willing to give a pretty

:18:42.:18:45.

public dressing down to one of her colleagues. David Cameron is not

:18:46.:18:49.

amused. This is what's on the front pages of the papers tomorrow. Not

:18:50.:18:52.

those proposals in the Queen's Speech, although there are the odd

:18:53.:18:56.

couple of photographs of the little page boy who fainted after what he

:18:57.:19:02.

heard the Queen say. Poor kid. Good outfit though! Whoever has the

:19:03.:19:05.

public relations account for the Taliban played a bit of a blinder

:19:06.:19:09.

today, after getting the United States to bane done its trumpeted

:19:10.:19:12.

refusal to negotiate with terrorists, then to get five of its

:19:13.:19:17.

most senior figures released in exchange for one American soldier,

:19:18.:19:21.

it is now released its own video of how the handover happened. In the

:19:22.:19:26.

United States, while there is continuing joy at the family

:19:27.:19:30.

reunification, there is unease about what's happened, and it seems to be

:19:31.:19:37.

growing. On Saturday, somewhere in host province in Afghanistan and

:19:38.:19:42.

overseen by a dozen Taliban affiliated soldiers, Sergeant

:19:43.:19:45.

Bergdahl's five-year captivity came to an end. While being handed over,

:19:46.:19:50.

a Taliban commander can be heard telling the American soldiers not to

:19:51.:19:55.

return to Afghanistan. Warning that if they do, they will be killed.

:19:56.:20:00.

They boast that the Americans were too frightened to remain, and they

:20:01.:20:05.

talked during the handover. President Obama has been sorely

:20:06.:20:10.

criticised for the terms of the handover by Republicans in

:20:11.:20:14.

Washington. Does putting these Taliban fighters back into the

:20:15.:20:20.

fight, endanger the west's security? Even Hillary Clinton, the former

:20:21.:20:24.

Secretary of State, has refused to say that she would have made the

:20:25.:20:31.

same deal. In trading one slowly Sergeant for five senior commanders

:20:32.:20:35.

the Taliban clearly feel they have scored a victory. One American is

:20:36.:20:41.

now free, but could some future President rue the day this deal was

:20:42.:20:50.

done. The author and journalist Charles Glass was himself held

:20:51.:20:55.

hostage by Islamic militants in the 1980s in Lebanon. And the Lieutenant

:20:56.:21:00.

was a counter intelligence officer for 30 years and served in

:21:01.:21:04.

Afghanistan in our Washington studio. What do you make of the

:21:05.:21:08.

Taliban video? It is clearly in their interests to put as good a

:21:09.:21:12.

spin for their side as they can. It was interesting though that they

:21:13.:21:16.

said to him, don't come back, or you will be killed. When the spin from

:21:17.:21:21.

Washington was that he had gone over to them and had Stockholm syndrome

:21:22.:21:26.

and was taking their side. If they were going to kill him it doesn't

:21:27.:21:30.

seem as if that was the case. What did you make of it? I think the

:21:31.:21:37.

Taliban today is not the Taliban that was there in 2001 when we

:21:38.:21:41.

invaded. They are a sophisticated organisation that understands social

:21:42.:21:45.

media and manipulating messages. There is an American reporter from

:21:46.:21:50.

major network that said publicly on national American TV that the

:21:51.:21:54.

Taliban is more co-operative than the White House. This was from a

:21:55.:21:57.

friendly network to the President. The Taliban is trying to get the

:21:58.:22:02.

most out of this event, they are, and as you in your introduction you

:22:03.:22:06.

are talking about the fact they are getting back five very senior

:22:07.:22:10.

commanders, for one individual who essentially left our side under

:22:11.:22:16.

question questionable circumstances. The Taliban is reaping the benefit

:22:17.:22:20.

of how they played this. Do you read it as a Taliban gain? It is a gain

:22:21.:22:27.

for Bowe Bergdahl, he gets to go free, as a former hostage there is

:22:28.:22:31.

nothing better than those first steps of freedom. The second,

:22:32.:22:35.

President Obama initially had a bit of a propaganda victory having done

:22:36.:22:39.

the trade-off saying he wouldn't leave anyone behind. That seems to

:22:40.:22:44.

have back fired on him because of the approbium attached to the

:22:45.:22:47.

exchange and he didn't inform Congress about it. The Republicans

:22:48.:22:52.

criticising him most severely knows that the Regan administration did

:22:53.:22:55.

the same with the hostages in Lebanon. The Iran scandal was all

:22:56.:23:00.

about selling Iran weapons, giving Iran weapons in exchange for

:23:01.:23:04.

hostages in Lebanon against American rule. Do you have Anwar site that

:23:05.:23:13.

this -- an Anxiety this will come back and haunt American Presidents,

:23:14.:23:21.

Lieutenant? I'm Tony too, sorry. The issue here for the American

:23:22.:23:24.

Presidents in the future, they have to consider how that plays out. The

:23:25.:23:30.

Iran issue was about material not individuals. In this case based on

:23:31.:23:34.

my own direct knowledge there were other options on the table. Not only

:23:35.:23:38.

military option that is related to finding a way to leverage other

:23:39.:23:43.

folks to get Bergdahl back. He was held by the network in Pakistan.

:23:44.:23:48.

That is very critical to the ecautious which has -- equation,

:23:49.:23:52.

which hasn't been fully explored by anyone in that point in time. Go on

:23:53.:23:57.

about the principle, the principle of doing deals with terrorists and

:23:58.:24:04.

swapping prisoners? In the case of the Taliban there is a real issue by

:24:05.:24:08.

these individuals, let's remember in Afghanistan there has always been a

:24:09.:24:13.

retrenchment and allowing the Taliban to be reintegrated into

:24:14.:24:16.

society. We have been allowing them to go back into society. With that

:24:17.:24:20.

said it is these five individuals who were captured under the original

:24:21.:24:26.

authorisation to military force, and these five individuals had direct

:24:27.:24:32.

links to the Al-Qaeda folks who conducted the 9/11 attacks. That is

:24:33.:24:36.

what the problem is with members of Congress and staff. I was over on

:24:37.:24:39.

the hill talking to them yesterday and today, there are real issues

:24:40.:24:43.

regarding these five more than other elements of the Taliban already

:24:44.:24:46.

released. Do you think then there was a miscalculation of what the

:24:47.:24:53.

effect of the exchange would be? Absolutely. I have been monitoring

:24:54.:24:59.

this from day one, literally, and the issue regarding Bergdahl is

:25:00.:25:04.

becoming clear, that he was not a pristine individual, there are

:25:05.:25:07.

issues about how he left his post. That has become a very hard pill for

:25:08.:25:10.

the American public and military to swallow. On top of that the

:25:11.:25:14.

violation of law. All the lawyers I spoke to said there was a clear

:25:15.:25:17.

violation by the President to allow the Taliban to go without

:25:18.:25:20.

consultations to Congress, and most importantly, when you look at the

:25:21.:25:28.

overall President press sent set by the President, will -- precedent set

:25:29.:25:34.

about gaining leverage with hostages. What do you think the

:25:35.:25:38.

legacy of the transaction will be? If the United States leaves

:25:39.:25:43.

Afghanistan then its soldiers won't be vulnerable to being captured by

:25:44.:25:47.

the Taliban or anyone else, perhaps in future wars,

:25:48.:25:50.

the Taliban or anyone else, perhaps war are always taken by both sides

:25:51.:25:54.

in war. It is nothing new, and prisoner exchanges are nothing new.

:25:55.:25:57.

This is something that is occurring just before the withdrawal of combat

:25:58.:26:02.

troops from Afghanistan, and in that context it looks different, doesn't

:26:03.:26:06.

it? Not if you think of Vietnam. Remember the first thing that

:26:07.:26:09.

happened as American troops pulled out, was the American prisoners came

:26:10.:26:16.

back too. That was a defeat? At that time it wasn't being sold as a

:26:17.:26:20.

defeat. And this time it isn't sold as a defeat either. In both cases it

:26:21.:26:28.

probably is a defeat. Time to hear from Kevin Spacey, not only is he

:26:29.:26:33.

one of the most famous actors in the world, but almost at the end of the

:26:34.:26:38.

time as Artistic Director at the Old Vic. In the House of Cards he place

:26:39.:26:46.

a snake making his way in American politics, is nothing like his real

:26:47.:26:51.

incarnation, as some sort of demigod, but also an actor revered

:26:52.:26:55.

for his devotion to British drama. We met him earlier today, be warned

:26:56.:27:02.

he likes the odd Anglo-Saxonism. Here is the head of that ignoble

:27:03.:27:07.

traitor, the dangerous and unsuspected Hastings. It is not

:27:08.:27:15.

every day Newsnight is in the presence of Hollywood royalty. So

:27:16.:27:22.

dear I loved the man (laughter) It is the Queen's Speech this morning.

:27:23.:27:26.

It was all a bit of a nightmare getting here. But we're here. Kevin

:27:27.:27:36.

Spacey has a film to promote, a behind the scenes documentary of

:27:37.:27:40.

taking his production of Richard II I around the world. What do you

:27:41.:27:46.

think the state of British theatre is now? There is lots of places

:27:47.:27:50.

where there is tremendous growth, really interesting ideas, really,

:27:51.:27:55.

you know, even if shows don't work the ideas behind shows, why people

:27:56.:27:59.

are trying to work on certain issues and tackle certain kinds of theatre

:28:00.:28:05.

is very exciting. I think it is in an incredibly healthy place. It is

:28:06.:28:08.

exciting to be a part of it. Will you be sad to leave? I'm never going

:28:09.:28:12.

to leave, it is not like I'm going to get on a plane and lock off. I

:28:13.:28:16.

will always be a part of this country and always have a place in

:28:17.:28:20.

London, and it is a huge part of my life. Back in the 90s when he won an

:28:21.:28:28.

Oscar for American Beauty, you might have thought Spacey would have opted

:28:29.:28:31.

for Hollywood more than anything else. It is the oddest thing, I feel

:28:32.:28:36.

like I'm in a coma for 20 years and just now waking up. Instead he chose

:28:37.:28:41.

a ten-year stint running London's Old Vic theatre. I was at a point in

:28:42.:28:45.

my life where I didn't want to pursue the same dream, and everyone

:28:46.:28:49.

wanted me to pursue the same dream because that is what people are

:28:50.:28:53.

supposed to do. I was like I did it, I had this unbelievable run of

:28:54.:28:59.

making movies and films that I'm unbelievably grateful. Some will

:29:00.:29:02.

stand the test of time, and others will thankfully be forgotten. My job

:29:03.:29:06.

is to clear the pipes and keep the sludge moving. Now he's better known

:29:07.:29:12.

on the small green for the American political -- screen for the American

:29:13.:29:17.

political drama House of Cards, a stand-out on Netflix. Why do you

:29:18.:29:22.

think the best writing at the moment is on TV? Because movies stopped

:29:23.:29:27.

making drama. What do you mean? The ground dried up. Somewhere at the

:29:28.:29:35.

end, right into the 2000, the motion picture studios for the most part

:29:36.:29:40.

started to focus on comic book characters, and that is what they

:29:41.:29:47.

are driven by. And real, incredible, brilliantly written, directed, acted

:29:48.:29:51.

character drama moved to a very fertile ground which, is television.

:29:52.:29:55.

Because creative people will go where they can work. And where they

:29:56.:29:59.

can create. It hasn't surprised me at all. With a third series in the

:30:00.:30:05.

pipeline, the work on House of Cards, where Spacey's Democrat,

:30:06.:30:13.

constantly moves for power in Washington, while teasing the

:30:14.:30:21.

audience. I pity him. If the West Wing is an idealised look at

:30:22.:30:29.

politicians and House of Cards is the other side, which is closer to

:30:30.:30:33.

the truth? We are closer to the truth. I make a joke now and make it

:30:34.:30:38.

sound like President Clinton said it and he didn't, but I like pretending

:30:39.:30:45.

he did. What do they do on the House of Cardses, 99% is true, and the 1%

:30:46.:30:52.

wrong is you could never get an education bill get passed that fast.

:30:53.:30:58.

Some have said it is cynical a other politicians have said it is closer

:30:59.:31:02.

than you would like to imagine. Does that depress you? Yes. It doesn't

:31:03.:31:06.

depress me because you know in the sense that wow that is shocking

:31:07.:31:10.

news, it depresses me because it makes me think that people don't

:31:11.:31:13.

want to go into public service because what is the point. And

:31:14.:31:18.

public service is an unbelievably important thing. People say to me

:31:19.:31:22.

would you run for politics and office, I'm like, are you kidding

:31:23.:31:31.

mement I like to get things done. Despite the programme's cynicism

:31:32.:31:35.

about the political cynicism, we know President Obama likes it. I

:31:36.:31:45.

wish things were that ruthless! Has Obama disappointed you? No. I think

:31:46.:31:51.

it is incredibly difficult to get anything done when people who are

:31:52.:31:57.

basically in control of the house of representatives have made a

:31:58.:32:00.

declaration that they will stop everything you wanted to try to

:32:01.:32:04.

achieve. You know you can only play ball if everyone is playing

:32:05.:32:08.

together. It doesn't surprise me. Do you think Frank Underwood have any

:32:09.:32:13.

advice for him? He would kill a lot of them! When you finish at the Old

:32:14.:32:17.

Vic, what else, back to shoe salesman, stand-up? I don't know

:32:18.:32:21.

what's next, that is one of the most exciting things. Obviously I'm

:32:22.:32:25.

enjoying House of Cards and that may continue beyond a third season. I

:32:26.:32:30.

don't know. That is actually thrilling not knowing. It is

:32:31.:32:36.

thrilling. Don't know yet. Now the 25th anniversary of the most

:32:37.:32:40.

notorious demonstration of the brutality of the Chinese state

:32:41.:32:43.

passed today in Beijing with hardly a mum merit. That was because the --

:32:44.:32:49.

mummur, that is because the police and associated thugs saw to it there

:32:50.:32:58.

was no more than a mummur. Thousands of pro-democracy were demonstrators

:32:59.:33:01.

were killed and the Government maintain it was no more than a few

:33:02.:33:09.

hundred. One photo remains the great image of the uprising. Tank Man

:33:10.:33:16.

depicts a man holding his shopping bags confronting an immpossibly

:33:17.:33:21.

menacing row of armoured vehicles. The photographer was Jeff Widener.

:33:22.:33:29.

This is his story. I got there a week before the crackdown, and it

:33:30.:33:34.

was a very lively event, almost a carnival atmosphere. You had

:33:35.:33:37.

children dancing and people were singing. Even policemen were singing

:33:38.:33:42.

together with the protestors. It was well organised and I think everybody

:33:43.:33:46.

knew this couldn't keep going on forever. I didn't think it was going

:33:47.:33:51.

on forever. We were all sort of wondering what the Chinese

:33:52.:33:54.

Government was going to do to the protesters. One picture that I

:33:55.:33:58.

photographed of a woman being caught in the middle of many soldiers near

:33:59.:34:03.

the Great Hall of the People in my mind is where it started. The

:34:04.:34:12.

evening of June #rd was the time when things started heating up and

:34:13.:34:16.

so all the protesters started bringing steel barricades and

:34:17.:34:20.

putting them in the middle of the street to block the advances of the

:34:21.:34:24.

soldiers who might come that night. I was talking to my reporter and

:34:25.:34:28.

then we heard this noise of metal crashing on the ground. And we're

:34:29.:34:32.

all thinking what's going on. What's happening. Then this armoured

:34:33.:34:37.

personnel carrier comes around the corner so fast there is sparks

:34:38.:34:42.

coming off the threads, everyone is running and screaming and I jumped

:34:43.:34:45.

into the ivy, I had to pull myself up and go running after this

:34:46.:34:50.

armoured car and I wanted to run in the opposite directionment when I

:34:51.:34:55.

got there my battery power and my flash was almost zero, I could take

:34:56.:35:03.

one picture every 60 seconds. So imagine on one of the largest

:35:04.:35:07.

stories in the 20th century and you can only take one picture every

:35:08.:35:10.

minute and all hell is breaking loose. One man was on the ground on

:35:11.:35:17.

fire, rolling around, another man was helping him, and I'm going come

:35:18.:35:22.

on, come on, come on, and the flash would not recycle, and I'm waiting

:35:23.:35:26.

what seemed to be an eternity, I lifted it to my eye and the minute I

:35:27.:35:32.

lifted it me-to-my eye, I look down and blood is all over me I had a

:35:33.:35:36.

massive concussion from a brick, from a protestor. I looked at the

:35:37.:35:41.

back of the armoured car on fire and this is now getting very close to

:35:42.:35:46.

midnight, and then out came a soldier to surrender, he has his

:35:47.:35:49.

hands up in the air and I still remember that pristine look of his

:35:50.:35:53.

uniform, how pressed it was, as clear as day in my mind, I

:35:54.:35:56.

remembered so clearly, and the mob looked at him for a second, and then

:35:57.:36:00.

they slowly moved in and they had pipes and weapons of all kind, and

:36:01.:36:05.

they started beating on him. And I looked at that and I couldn't take a

:36:06.:36:10.

picture. And I thought to myself, I'm going to lose the Pulitzer

:36:11.:36:14.

Prize, and then I thought I should be ashamed for thinking something

:36:15.:36:27.

like that because he's about to die. I was not staying Tebay engining

:36:28.:36:31.

Hotel, but the Beijing Hotel was the location closest to the Tiananmen

:36:32.:36:36.

Square. This is where journalists were going to try to get some kind

:36:37.:36:40.

of an idea about what was going on. And everybody was scared. I have

:36:41.:36:45.

never been so scared of all the assignments I have never been so

:36:46.:36:49.

scared as this story. Fortunately I managed to get to the Beijing hotel.

:36:50.:36:54.

And we made it to the roof. I went out to the balcony, and I kept

:36:55.:36:59.

looking at the bullet hole over my head. There was one bullet hole it

:37:00.:37:03.

kept reminding me I could easily get picked off by a sniper, it was very

:37:04.:37:08.

unsettling to be leaning over a balcony and trying to shoot over a

:37:09.:37:12.

wall. The man walks out in the middle of the street with his

:37:13.:37:18.

shopping bag and I told Kirk he's screwing up my composition, and he's

:37:19.:37:23.

saying they will shoot him. I'm focussing for the man to be shot,

:37:24.:37:26.

I'm waiting and waiting, I know it is going to happen, I'm waiting and

:37:27.:37:30.

focussing and nothing happens. And then I'm thinking this picture is

:37:31.:37:37.

too far away, it is too far away, I'm looking at the bed and thinking

:37:38.:37:41.

do I take a gamble and get the teleconverter. I gamble and I put it

:37:42.:37:56.

on the lens I go 1-2-3 (click) I wonder what happened to him like

:37:57.:37:59.

anyone, the big question is, it is shocking after a quarter of a

:38:00.:38:03.

century, not only do we not know where he is or his relative, you

:38:04.:38:07.

would think a relative would come forward and what happened to the

:38:08.:38:09.

tank crew, what happened to the driver, what happened to the crew,

:38:10.:38:13.

they disappeared off the face of the planet. Those guys have lives. They

:38:14.:38:17.

have got families, where are they? Where is everybody? It is like the

:38:18.:38:21.

twilight zone, they just disappeared. Speaking to us from

:38:22.:38:29.

Taiwan is the Tiananmen Square protest leader. With me here in the

:38:30.:38:32.

studio is the economist and lecturer at the LSE, and the author of When

:38:33.:38:40.

China Rules The World, Martin Jakes. Can we come to you in Taiwan first.

:38:41.:38:48.

You intervened and spoke to the premier, what do you think you

:38:49.:38:58.

achieved in that protest? Any protest has the same logic, you

:38:59.:39:02.

apply pressure and hope your opponent or Government can maybe

:39:03.:39:06.

come up to make the right choice. And then in this case the Chinese

:39:07.:39:12.

Communist Party have failed to do that. They chose the most unlike but

:39:13.:39:18.

actually the worst of all the options. And then when the meeting,

:39:19.:39:24.

when we were summoned to the Great Hall of the People to meet with one

:39:25.:39:28.

of the leaders, we don't know home, and then he came to meet with us,

:39:29.:39:32.

and I thought we are meeting the premier. Maybe this is the moment we

:39:33.:39:37.

can make that pressure work, you know, finally the pressure brought

:39:38.:39:41.

the supreme leaders, so we can tell them what we really want. What we

:39:42.:39:45.

wanted was dialogue, and hopefully from that dialogue something can

:39:46.:39:49.

emerge, something like freedom of expression and then maybe freedom of

:39:50.:39:54.

assembly. And then he gave us this monolougue and then there were going

:39:55.:39:59.

on and gone, and he's saying he's late. I thought, wow, OK, premier

:40:00.:40:04.

being a gentleman, but then he immediately turned that to us, and

:40:05.:40:10.

said because he's late for 20 minutes because Beijing is in such

:40:11.:40:15.

chaos, then he blamed the students for the chaos. So the monologue

:40:16.:40:22.

going on, the TV cameras are shooting, we don't know if it is

:40:23.:40:27.

live broadcasting, but we know this doesn't look good, this is not what

:40:28.:40:30.

we hoped for, this is not the dialogue we are asking for. So with

:40:31.:40:35.

a brief exchange with the students sitting next to me, and then we

:40:36.:40:40.

decided to interrupt him. And I did it. So I think that will at least

:40:41.:40:46.

show the people in front of the TV a clear message that we are not here

:40:47.:40:50.

to be talked down at. We're here to give the Government a lecture. So we

:40:51.:40:55.

told, I told the premier that yes, you are late, but you are not 20

:40:56.:40:59.

minutes late, we called upon you a month ago. You are a month late. So

:41:00.:41:07.

I guess he' never prepared for being electured by a 21-year-old. So he

:41:08.:41:12.

was stung, and that has been broadcast nationwide that evening.

:41:13.:41:16.

Do you think you achieved anything in this protest? It is a big

:41:17.:41:28.

question, we all know the result of that, bloodshed in China. But if the

:41:29.:41:35.

20th century, to be recorded, I'm sure, antifascism, and the

:41:36.:41:39.

anticommunist aggression will be the two major campaigns to record, and

:41:40.:41:43.

then China, the Chinese students, we took on the streets, basically

:41:44.:41:49.

started the decisive battle of the second campaign, and then that

:41:50.:41:54.

campaign has reached victory in Eastern Europe, in Soviet European,

:41:55.:41:58.

did we achieve that? I think in part, yes, we contributed to that.

:41:59.:42:04.

But unfortunately we are left out, although in the last 25 years the

:42:05.:42:08.

Chinese Government have to give in to some of the demands we made.

:42:09.:42:15.

Never really what we wanted. But we are, yes. How live an issue is this,

:42:16.:42:20.

if the events of Tiananmen Square, so long ago, how live an issue is it

:42:21.:42:27.

still in China? Today it is you know, it is not a topic that

:42:28.:42:32.

everyone discusses in society. We don't really talk about it we don't

:42:33.:42:39.

feel t but I think what is important is the tremendous economic

:42:40.:42:45.

development did to an extent dwarf the event itself. What about the

:42:46.:42:50.

claim that the Chinese Government acted as it did that it suppressed

:42:51.:42:54.

the protest and made it possible for the Chinese economy to boom along in

:42:55.:42:58.

the way it has done since, is that true? I think that instability,

:42:59.:43:07.

major instability is an enemy of economic development, particularly

:43:08.:43:14.

for a developing country. Not just in China and what you can think of.

:43:15.:43:21.

The problem for the leader of China then was unity was fundamental in

:43:22.:43:24.

his view for economic development. The reason in way things got

:43:25.:43:28.

completely out of control in the way they did, is the leadership became

:43:29.:43:33.

divided and eventually it let to this tragedy, it was a tragedy that

:43:34.:43:39.

so many people died. But what is fascinating is within extremely

:43:40.:43:44.

short space of time, historically speaking, the country began to

:43:45.:43:49.

resume its very rapid growth. Are the two things connected?

:43:50.:43:54.

Absolutely, stability is critical. The fact is China lifted 800 million

:43:55.:43:58.

people out of poverty. That is also a fundamental human right. And we

:43:59.:44:01.

could not have achieved it without stability. You can query about the

:44:02.:44:05.

measures and the means by which we got there, but stability,

:44:06.:44:15.

absolutely. It comes from democracy, communism has been the major factor

:44:16.:44:21.

for Chinese instability. What do you, as a matter of interest, what

:44:22.:44:30.

do you do now? What do you do now? I'm a determined activist, I'm a

:44:31.:44:33.

determined dissident. What do you do for a living? Just like other fellow

:44:34.:44:40.

dissidents in China, for a living, of course being a dissident doesn't

:44:41.:44:44.

put the bread on the table, I'm an investment banker! I think QEDeh!

:44:45.:44:52.

That is the point isn't it? Was it really, would it really have been

:44:53.:44:57.

impossible for China to have married economic freedom with political

:44:58.:45:00.

freedom do you think? It is really easy to talk about the counter

:45:01.:45:03.

faction, we don't know what would have happened, but what I think

:45:04.:45:09.

against gets not emphasised enough is the major improvement of the last

:45:10.:45:15.

20 years, and democratic elements have been introduced in society, we

:45:16.:45:19.

see through the microblogs and the Government responding more to

:45:20.:45:24.

people's demands. Why is it is not a live issue, this was a very, very

:45:25.:45:28.

powerfully emotional story, that went right around the world of

:45:29.:45:34.

people trying to demand freedom and being, and having their protests

:45:35.:45:39.

suppressed? Why is it not resonating in China? Clearly it was an

:45:40.:45:43.

important moment, but in terms of China as a whole, I think in the

:45:44.:45:51.

west we probably greatly exaggerated its significance. It wasn't a

:45:52.:45:56.

China-wide movement that drew in large numbers of people. The

:45:57.:46:00.

extraordinary thing if you look back now, 1989, how did we interpret

:46:01.:46:05.

1989, Tiananmen Square first, Folaued by the fall of the Berlin

:46:06.:46:09.

wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union, the end of communism, that is

:46:10.:46:16.

how we interpret it in the west. We were right about the Soviet Union

:46:17.:46:20.

and Eastern Europe but wrong about China. What happened was very

:46:21.:46:26.

quickly China's growth was resumed and the Chinese Communist Party has

:46:27.:46:31.

presided over the greatest economic transformation in history. History,

:46:32.:46:36.

the world does not look the same now as it did then. In China, that

:46:37.:46:44.

image, t photograph, Tank Man, the young man stopping the prosession of

:46:45.:46:49.

tanks, is that known or resonated in China? Plenty of people, a lot of

:46:50.:46:55.

people are travelling abroad, students are educated abroad and see

:46:56.:46:59.

this picture, while it is officially not present. The knowledge of that

:47:00.:47:03.

existence of that photo is very much in the society. Thank you all very

:47:04.:47:07.

much. That's unfortunately all we are allowed to have time for

:47:08.:47:09.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS