09/07/2014 Newsnight


09/07/2014

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In an exclusive interview, the Chief Inspector of prisons tell us

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Newsnight that he's concerned about the steep increase in jail suicides.

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And the overall conditions in prisons. We are seeing a lot more

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prisons that aren't meeting an acceptable standard across a range

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of things that we look at. And I go to most of these inspections and I

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see with my own eyes a deterioration. I will be speaking to

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the man who runs our prisons in England and Wales. Newsnight exposes

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the organisations unwittingly advertising alongside Jihadi videos

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on-line, including Oxfam and the National Citizens Service, as a

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result they have both withdrawn their ads. When they strike tomorrow

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teachers reserve ire for Michael Gove's reform, he don't seem to like

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them either. There are a small group of people and tend to be

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ideolgically motivated opposed to what we are doing. There is an

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overwhelming majority of teachers doing the right thing. We will

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debate the strikes with the General Secretary of the NUT and cheerleader

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for Michael Gove's reforms who is opening his own free school.

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They once stood for all that was beautiful in the beautiful game,

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last night they fell to the uglyist of defeat, will Brazil ever get over

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the trauma. Good evening, the Chief Inspector of

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prisons in England and Wales has spoken exclusively to Newsnight and

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very frankly about his inspection findings. The deteriorating state of

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the prison climate, particularly over the last few months, increased

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suicide, more violence, self-harm, more overcrowding, more

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unpredictable regimes. He paints a picture of finding prisoners hiding

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in different bits of the jails, scared of the high levels of

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violence and calls for action. With the exclusive new research from the

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Howard League, our investigations correspondent reports.

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He had visible scars on his neck from the first time. The first time

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he did it he did it with shoelaces, and they were very deep, and any

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time he went out he used to ask me to put concealer on it to cover them

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up, because he didn't like people seeing them. You believe it would

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have been obvious to anyone? You couldn't miss them. It would have

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been obvious that he was someone who was a troubled individual and needed

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extra care? Definitely. Greg was 18, he was in prison for a second time,

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the first had been for threatening someone with a dumbbell handle, the

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second he was on remand after being found carrying a knife. Four weeks

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ago prison officers found him dead in his cell. Greg wasn't just

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naughty, I always thought he had some sort of mental health problem.

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If that was me and I was in that job I would have had him on suicide

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watch, given his previous history. How long had he been in the prison

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before he died? Two nights? What is going on behind the UK's prison

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walls? In an exclusive interview the Chief Inspector of Prisons has told

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Newsnight of his fears of a deep and worrying malaise. Understaffed and

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overpopulated campaigners fear our prisons are fast spiralling out of

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control. Some even say that recent cuts have cost prisoners' lives.

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Prison suicides hit a high of 96 in 2004, but started to fall again over

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the rest of the decade. Now they, as well as incidents of self-harm are

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on the rise again. In 2012 there were 60 suicides in 2013 there were

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74. Exclusive figures seen by Newsnight, compiled by the Howard

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League for Penal Reform show they are on course to rise again this

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year too. They show there were 42 suicides in the first six months of

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this year, that compares to 30 in the same period last year. This is

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beyond a crisis, this is prisons now in meltdown. I really worry about

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staff and prisoners over the summer and I worry about the consequences

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for the public because people will come out of prison so bitter, so

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angry, so frightened, so violent, that they will inflict that misery

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on the rest of us. For the Chief Inspector of Prisons it is not just

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about suicides. I think they are an indication of wider problems in the

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Prison Service, and indications of a system that is under growing

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pressure. It is not acceptable we have this rate of suicides in

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prison. You go to prisons all the way around the country, have you

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noticed any changes across the board over the last few months? Certainly

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if you look at, since the beginning of this year, our inspection

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findings have dropped significantly. We are seeing a lot more prisons

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that aren't now meeting an acceptable standard across the range

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of things we look at. And I go to most of these inspections and I see

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with my own eyes a deterioration. Tomorrow's report will show the

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number of prison officers has dropped from 27,000 in 2010 to

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19,000. A 30% cut. Take Wandsworth, four years ago it had 427 staff

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looking after 1,603 prisoners. As of last September it had 270 staff, the

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number of inmates now is almost identical. Ministers are now having

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to rehire staff to cover the gaps. Gaps that come as no surprise to

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prison governors. We were saying that we were heading for a shortage

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some time before the Prison Service reacted to it. I think that they

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were slow in starting the recruitment drive. This is Kevin

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Scarlet, he died in prison just over a year ago. A coroner has already

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been highly critical of Kevin's treatment in Wood Hill Prison. He

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said Kevin's risk of suicide was not properly assessed and he should have

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been allocated to a safer cell, Kevin too had previously attempted

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suicide. If he had been in a safer cell, closer to the wing officers,

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he would have been under more supervision with less ligature

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points, so he wouldn't have been able to tie up a ligature. Had you

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assumed that Kevin would be safe in prison? Yes, that is the assumption.

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At the end of the day the Ministry of Justice do have a duty of care to

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keep these prisoners safe, whether from themselves or other prisoners.

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There are processes in place to aid them in this. If they use the

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processes properly, I believe Kevin would still be here. Justice

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Secretary Chris Grayling is known for talking tough, he recently

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talked about a 10. 30 lights out for young offenders. While hardliners

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have public support, insiders say they risk creating unrest. They may

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whisper it but prison governors admit our jails are run on consent

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not coercion, they say 10% of inmates are never trouble, and

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another ten are always in trouble, and the rest they will play along if

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they think the regime is fair. If they don't, if you lose them, then

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our jails become ungovernable. So fewer political statements from the

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Justice Secretary would be welcomed by your members? Absolutely. I think

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it would be nice if statements were factual and neutral and not

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preorive. I don't know if that is an unrealistic wish. It would be really

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useful to have the politics taken out of prisons. While campaigners

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uses words to put their case, the Prison Service uses them to counter

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it. There is a danger that the Prison Service and the politicians

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in charge in a sense overanalyse the figures and actually miss what is

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under their noses on the wings, which sometimes I think people being

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held in deplorable conditions, who are suicidal, who don't have

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anything to do and who don't have anyone to talk to. So I think we

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need to concentrate on what's obvious in front of our noses and

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sort that. We had Amazing Grace, we sang that. Karen says she owes it to

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her son to prove his death was avoidable. For everyone involved in

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prisons there is no greater challenge, how to stop prisoners

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dying in our jails. Earlier I went to interview the man

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who runs prisons in England and Wales, the chief executive of the

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National Offender Management Service, Michael Spur. The Chief

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Inspector of Prisons has told Newsnight that he's very worried

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about the steep rise in prison suicides, are you? Of course I'm

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worried. Any increase in suicides has to be a worry, because that

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involves somebody's life and families and people losing their

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lives, that has got to be a worry. From 42 in June 2000 this year, from

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30 in the same period last year, it is almost half again. You say you

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are worried but what are you actually doing about it? We have

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reduced the level of suicides, that has been a really important and

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positive movement over the last ten years. We have now gone up again,

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and we are back to a let of suicides. A 50% increase in the last

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two years? We are back to 2007 levels. That is worrying. We have

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reinforced all the things we have done over recent years to bring the

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suicide rate down. It is complicated and doesn't lend itself to simple

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solutions. 215 deaths in custody last year, the highest number since

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2001 and you are trying to operate with fewer staff, it is like one

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hand tied behind your back? We are operating with fewer staff and 16

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fewer prisons and we have tight financial constraints as all aspects

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of the public sector have. The Chief Inspector of Prisons told Newsnight

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since the start of the year the inspection findings have dropped

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considerably, he sees with his own eyes a deterioration, so if you put

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together the Ministry of Justice's own data about violence, suicide and

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self-harm, with the overall inspection findings and he's clear

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the situation has deteriorated over the last few months and he says

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there needs to be action to address it. Why is this happening? Over the

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last six months we have studied with additional pressure, the population

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has gone up greater than anticipated. At the same time we

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have ended up with fewer staff than we need, actually. That is partly

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because there has been a greater turnover in the south-east because

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the economy has picked up. It is also because we have chosen to put

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700 posts back into prisons. We have taken action. We have taken action

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to recruit staff needily from August and former staff on temporary

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contracts and we are recruiting 1600 staff this year. So the Chief

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Inspector is right, there has been some deterioration, but have we

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taken action? Absolutely. Do you accept you should have fought harder

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not to be below that number, that you had budget cuts that were too

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deep? I don't accept that. I accept that events have happened which have

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meant that we have had to respond urgently to those events and we are

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responding by recruiting more staff. That is because we put the priority

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on safety and security and decently and we're not simply looking to

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drive savings out where we can put people can risk. How many prisoners

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are sharing cells designed for one prisoner? About 23% of the

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population are in crowded conditions sharing cells. So one in five

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prisoners is in a crowded cell? Yes. In 2014? I would like no crowding in

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prisons but we have had it as long as I have been in the Prison Service

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for 30 years. The crowding we have today is lower than for the last ten

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years. Of course I would like a position where we wouldn't have

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anyone in crowded cells, can we manage people in crowded cells,

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safely, yes. The Ministry of Justice budget cuts are going to be ?2. 4

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billion leading up to 2016, you are a major part of the Ministry of

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Justice, are you taking more budget cuts in the service next year? We

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are having to make over the Spending Review period about 25% budget

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reduction. That is across prisons, probation and my headquarters and we

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are on track to deliver that, but we are delivering it by ensuring that

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we're working differently by taking sensible action to reconfigure the

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estate, which means fewer prisons. You have 4,500 fewer prisoner places

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than you need at the moment, even with the two prises that are

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private? We have enough places for all the prisoners we have at the

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moment. You haven't if you have overcrowding? Crowding has been a

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feature of the system for 30 years plus. So it is acceptable? It is not

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acceptable, but to get rid of overcrowding would cost ?900

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million, which we do not have. We are retaining the level of

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overcrowding, that is not ideal. We are not expanding it, it is lower

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than in the last ten years and it is not ideal. But it is manageable as

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it has been in the system for many years. Of course I would like not to

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have that, but we don't have the ?900 million enabling us to get rid

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of it. We can't have a modern Prison Service? I would love the

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opportunity to have no overcrowding, realistically with the financial

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position the country is in, ?900 million to eradicate overcrowding,

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much as I would love to have it, isn't something that is realistic at

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the moment. Thank you very much. The two British Jihadis who

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yesterday admitted to preparing acts of terrorism were allegedly

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radicalised on-line. In Jihadi videos from ISIS and other extremist

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groups have become prime tools for radicalising Muslims. The companies

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that host the videos have to bear the costs which they recoup by

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selling adverts. Newsnight has found that charity and even Government ads

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have been running before some Jihadi video, not the sort of stuff that

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any advertisers would want to be associated with. Your summer needs

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all things NCS. Searching for something. How did these happy

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smiling faces in an advert for a good cause end up on the Internet

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next to this. Jihadi videos can be brutal. Shocking. Designed not just

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to attract support, but to help persuade young people to fight.

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Video uploaded from anywhere, whether the frontline or even from a

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radical preacher's phone. But look for them... And you will quickly

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find something else too. So that's the little tearse of some of the fun

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you could have with NCS, be sure to share your summer. We found adverts

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funded with tax-payers' cash popping up before these videos. There is one

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for the National Citizens Service, the coalition's modern-day

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equivalent of national service. It is meant to be improving for young

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people and society alike. And hardly sits comfortably next to these

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messages designed to promote Jihad. We also found adverts from charities

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like Oxfam, multinational companies, and even the BBC. All becoming

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unwitting on-line neighbours to extremists. Jihadis who upload the

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videos to the web could even be making money from them. Without the

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advertisers' knowledge their ads end up alongside in a sort of commercial

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accident. If I want to advertise on YouTube, I pay YouTube, they keep a

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large chunk of it and they give the rest to whoever the person who

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uploaded the video that the ads are being run against. If you think

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about how much content is being uploaded to YouTube, it is about 70

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hours every minute, or something crazy like that. Of course you can't

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police what is being advertised against every single video. On the

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other hand, you know, you could say it is incumbent upon YouTube to make

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sure that ads aren't being run against questionable, or next to

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questionable content. In response to what we want the Citizens Service

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suspended their account with YouTube temporarily, the ad has been removed

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from the video. Oxfam says it was not acceptable, their ad has been

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removed. The BBC says it will re-think its ad policy. Increasingly

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it is a way of spreading extremism on YouTube. One Jihadist we have

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spoken to says he considers on-line media half of Jihad. The unfortunate

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positions of these media side-by-side is clearly inadvertent,

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but social media and the funding from it does really matter. One

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British man, who has been making radical videos for years has told

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Newsnight, when it comes to Jihad your Samsung S5 is as important as

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your AK-46. 47. YouTube says they will remove video that is violate

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their policies. Another website told us they take action quickly and have

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taken one down as a result of our findings. Video content is important

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for Jihadist movements, it is emotive, and it be powerful for

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viewers watching it. On its own it is not really enough to radicalise a

:18:46.:18:51.

young man or young woman into violent action. But when it is mixed

:18:52.:18:55.

with other factors it can certainly facilitate or speed it up or

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encourage people to act. However effective the increasing ease and

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falling costs of technology are making it simpler and simpler for

:19:07.:19:12.

extremists to use dramatic videos as calls to arm, propaganda just for a

:19:13.:19:16.

matter of pennies. With more and more advertising run automatically,

:19:17.:19:21.

where images end up is increasingly decided by machine. Whatever content

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is posted, it is growing faster than we can keep up.

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Amongst the expectant million public sectors striking tomorrow over pay

:19:38.:19:41.

and tensions and jobs, will be teachers for whom there is an added

:19:42.:19:44.

furious protest against Michael Gove's signature education reforms

:19:45.:19:49.

which have delivered approval for 331 free schools so far in England

:19:50.:19:52.

and a new curriculum. With perfect timing, as the teachers are standing

:19:53.:19:55.

in the picket lines, the Education Secretary will be hosting a global

:19:56.:19:59.

summit in London for education reformers, ahead of it he wrote in

:20:00.:20:03.

today's Telegraph, seeming to suggest his reforms of equivalent

:20:04.:20:08.

magnitude to the Thatcher economic reforms in the 1980s.

:20:09.:20:15.

If Michael Gove can remain in his job until the next election, he will

:20:16.:20:19.

have become the longest-serving Education Secretary in modern times,

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but he has made enemies, enemies he calls "the blob". What has he done,

:20:26.:20:30.

his central idea, free school, are free of central local authority

:20:31.:20:37.

control, 174 are ready and 157 in the pipeline. 4,000 across England

:20:38.:20:41.

in total. That is a lot of new schools to monitor and Michael Gove

:20:42.:20:45.

has faced criticism for a lack of oversight. He's a fighter and he

:20:46.:20:49.

makes great claims. There are 24% of free schools inspected by Ofsted

:20:50.:20:52.

that are outstanding. That is compared with 20% of other schools

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inspected. This is a tricky comparison. There are so few free

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schools and lots of other schools are yet to be under the new regime.

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Many fights along the way. The teaching union, once again on strike

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tomorrow, many parents, authors, historians, former Labour allies

:21:10.:21:14.

like Sally Morgan, and the coalition partners he once courted. I caught

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up with Michael Gove as his conference got under way. I started

:21:19.:21:22.

by asking why have people come around the world to see just 300

:21:23.:21:25.

free schools. Free schools are one of the ways we are reforming

:21:26.:21:28.

education. Of course the success of free schools is one of the things

:21:29.:21:32.

that has attracted people. Free schools are twice as likely to be

:21:33.:21:34.

outstanding as other schools which have been inspected under the tough

:21:35.:21:39.

new Ofsted framework. What we have sought to do is create great new

:21:40.:21:42.

schools in areas that really need them. Now that the first 174 have

:21:43.:21:48.

been set up. Now there are another more than 100 in the pipeline,

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people can see that this is a success and I expect that after the

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election Conservative Education Secretary, whether me or someone

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else, will want massively to increase those numbers. How will you

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do that? One way in Sweden, which for you is the model, was profit

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making. Will that be part of how you scale up from what you are talking

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about, which is hundreds, to thousands? No. You are ruling that

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out? Yes. I don't believe you need profit. I asked a number of

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reformers across the globe, do you think that it would make a big

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difference? Uniformly from left-to-right, from governor Jed

:22:25.:22:28.

Bush to others in the United States who have pioneered education reform.

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To people in Europe who also admire what we are doing, they say it is

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not necessary. The profit motive becomes as it were a way of on

:22:36.:22:46.

opposition to change. We need to significantly increase the number of

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schools that enjoy the autonomy that academy chains can bring but also

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the support they bring. That is likely to be in the next manifesto

:22:54.:22:56.

for you to get from hundreds to thousands? We want to increase the

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number of free schools, that will be in the manifesto, also in the

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manifesto will be a scale of ambition, specifically in

:23:05.:23:09.

encouraging more primary schools to become academies as well. One of the

:23:10.:23:13.

big success stories of reform in the past 12 months has been the way in

:23:14.:23:17.

which primary schools that were once considered to be basically beyond

:23:18.:23:22.

redemption have been transformed. You are minded that every school

:23:23.:23:27.

should be part of an academy chain? That is the direction we want to

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move. I don't want to be prescriptive. But you can tell

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viewers tonight if there is a Tory Government or part of a Government

:23:35.:23:37.

there will be thousands and thousands more academy chains? If

:23:38.:23:44.

there are, if there is a Conservative Secretary of State for

:23:45.:23:46.

Education after the next election me or someone else we will ensure that

:23:47.:23:50.

many, many more primary schools benefit from academy status. The

:23:51.:23:54.

Prime Minister at PMQs talked about the next manifesto, he said there

:23:55.:23:58.

would be some kind of new strike legislation, you know the

:23:59.:24:00.

legislation better than anyone in the country. You must have a feeling

:24:01.:24:04.

about what would be a good level to put the threshold at? I don't.

:24:05.:24:09.

Because I think it is important that we make some judgments about what

:24:10.:24:14.

the right threshold would be. And it is also important that we consider

:24:15.:24:19.

one or two other things that might involve folks saying for example

:24:20.:24:25.

saying there needs to be thresholds in schools. Which schools are you

:24:26.:24:28.

referring to? One of the ideas discussed in the past is you need to

:24:29.:24:32.

have a majority within a particular work place, within a particular

:24:33.:24:35.

school and local authority area or within for example a particular

:24:36.:24:39.

academy chain before industrial action can be taken. I think it is

:24:40.:24:43.

important that we have a debate and discussion about how we can ensure

:24:44.:24:47.

that children are protected from what is essentially politically

:24:48.:24:51.

motivated industrial reaction. 16% of teachers support you, how did you

:24:52.:24:56.

end up losing so many of them? I'm not sure how accurate that poll is.

:24:57.:25:02.

Do you think it is more accurate, how many would you say support you?

:25:03.:25:07.

I couldn't put a finger on it. What is your impression of how many, you

:25:08.:25:11.

walk into a room of teachers, hopefully representative, what is it

:25:12.:25:16.

half the room, a third of the room or 16 of the room? What is striking

:25:17.:25:21.

while I can't put an absolute number on it, what I can tell you is

:25:22.:25:24.

outstanding teachers and outstanding head teachers are, I find,

:25:25.:25:28.

overwhelmingly in favour of what we are doing. It is the bad ones that

:25:29.:25:32.

don't get it? Yes. Why do you think you haven't been able to persuade

:25:33.:25:35.

those joining the strikes tomorrow? They are a minority. It is important

:25:36.:25:39.

to stress as the Prime Minister did today, that the ballot, which

:25:40.:25:45.

legitimises this strike is two years old, and the turnout which validated

:25:46.:25:49.

that ballot was small. There are lots of people as members of trades

:25:50.:25:56.

unions will support the fact it is a legally constituted ballot, but I

:25:57.:25:59.

absolutely think this strike is damaging, that the NUT leadership

:26:00.:26:04.

has a responsibility to engage in talks to improve children's

:26:05.:26:06.

education rather than industrial action which actually holds children

:26:07.:26:11.

back. Do we work hard as a nation, countries in the tables above us,

:26:12.:26:16.

the South Koreans just work and read 18 hours day? I think it is

:26:17.:26:21.

important, yes, to encourage hard work at school. I think it is also

:26:22.:26:25.

important to balance that with all the other things we want, as a

:26:26.:26:29.

father, we want our children to do, playing football and having funs.

:26:30.:26:35.

However, I think it is the case that as a country we don't read enough.

:26:36.:26:39.

Adults are not reading enough in this country? I think all of us

:26:40.:26:45.

should read more. I think that it is great to see that I think the

:26:46.:26:50.

numbers of books being bought, both e-books and physical volumes is at

:26:51.:26:58.

an all-time high. They are not being finished? If Thomas Piquit, he's

:26:59.:27:08.

book it is not being finished. How many do you read a year? 30 or 40.

:27:09.:27:14.

Do you tot it up? I try to keep a note. Gladstone did that didn't he?

:27:15.:27:21.

That is all we have in common. Joining me now is the General

:27:22.:27:24.

Secretary of the National Union of Teachers who has called a strike

:27:25.:27:27.

tomorrow, and the executive principle of an academy in Leeds,

:27:28.:27:33.

who plans to open his first free school in September. First of all

:27:34.:27:35.

you are striking tomorrow on the basis of a ballot from two years ago

:27:36.:27:39.

in which only 27% of teachers took part? Where is the democracy in

:27:40.:27:47.

that? The fact is it is perfectly legitimate as Michael Gove said,

:27:48.:27:55.

ballot. We voted for at thises continued action with no end state.

:27:56.:28:00.

27% of teachers took part? The turnout we have had subsequent to

:28:01.:28:04.

that has been higher. Let me tell you about turnout. The rules that

:28:05.:28:10.

govern how a blot for industrial action has to be done. It has to be

:28:11.:28:14.

a fully posted ballot to every member. If the they wanted to

:28:15.:28:18.

improve the ballot turnout, they could change the legislation and say

:28:19.:28:22.

people could vote on-line or at their work place or any manner of

:28:23.:28:26.

different kinds of ways. Do you believe it should be a statute of

:28:27.:28:31.

limitations on strikes, as David Cameron today said he wanted to see?

:28:32.:28:35.

I don't think that is important, it is important to get it across and

:28:36.:28:38.

have a highest turnout. The statute of limb takes I don't understand

:28:39.:28:44.

what -- limitations he's talking about I don't know. We would like to

:28:45.:28:49.

see strike action only taken in extreme circumstances, that is not

:28:50.:28:51.

represented here. You listen to teachers who have essentially lost,

:28:52.:28:56.

what, 15% of their pay since the coalition came in, the pension

:28:57.:29:01.

rights are changed. They have a legitimate grievance, they are not

:29:02.:29:06.

valued in society are they? I don't see that at all, I see teachers

:29:07.:29:11.

proud of what they are achieving and making enormous contributions to the

:29:12.:29:14.

world children come from. And this reform programme, changing the lives

:29:15.:29:18.

of children from the most disadvantaged backgrounds in our

:29:19.:29:21.

country. On strike action, you have the members in your school they are

:29:22.:29:24.

members of a union? I am too. Of course. On the question of whether

:29:25.:29:31.

or not teachers should be backing the reforms, you heard Michael Gove

:29:32.:29:35.

say there, first of all there is a minority that ideolgically are

:29:36.:29:38.

driven, and are actually not very good, they don't support us, and the

:29:39.:29:43.

majority do support us. Do you accept that actually as a teacher,

:29:44.:29:47.

holding out for reforms for teachers which are not necessarily best for

:29:48.:29:50.

children, then you are seen as reactionary? What our policies in

:29:51.:29:59.

the NUT are we think are best for children. There is no contention

:30:00.:30:02.

about being concerned about the fact that your pension has lost value and

:30:03.:30:07.

your pay has lost 15% and wanting to do the best by children. Very many

:30:08.:30:11.

teachers hold both those views at the same time. When the Government

:30:12.:30:14.

is unprepared to talk about policy changes at all, then we are forced

:30:15.:30:19.

eventually to take strike action about it. Are you not concerned that

:30:20.:30:25.

disadvantaged children, so far, statistically, are less likely to go

:30:26.:30:28.

to free schools? I think having been someone who has applied and gone

:30:29.:30:33.

through the free schools programme, somebody an applicant for, that I

:30:34.:30:36.

understand how rigorous the process of assessment for free schools is.

:30:37.:30:39.

We are opening the first free school in September, and we have another

:30:40.:30:42.

one to follow in the following September. I can assure you in the

:30:43.:30:47.

application process the rigorous assessment on what imfact we will

:30:48.:30:50.

have on disadvantaged children is very deep in that process. Our

:30:51.:30:55.

schools opening will be almost entirely focussed on narrowing the

:30:56.:30:59.

gap in performance which is such a problem nationally. When you have

:31:00.:31:04.

said in defending the status quo that 36% of pupils free school meals

:31:05.:31:12.

achieve five good GCSEs. That is not a good statistic at all? No, the

:31:13.:31:16.

fact is the way you improve things is by things like the London

:31:17.:31:22.

Challenge. London used to be the worst performing region in the

:31:23.:31:27.

country, there was a peer school-to-school improvement system,

:31:28.:31:29.

we are now the best performing region in the country. There are

:31:30.:31:33.

much better ways of improving things than by floating schools off and

:31:34.:31:36.

changing their governance structure. What you need to do is focus on

:31:37.:31:41.

every school being a good school and having a local authority help you is

:31:42.:31:44.

the best way to do that. Do you accept the local authorities have a

:31:45.:31:48.

strong role to play in some schools? In some schools, certainly. There is

:31:49.:31:51.

nothing in the policy development that contradicts that. You heard

:31:52.:31:56.

Michael Gove say that if a Conservative Government returned he

:31:57.:32:00.

would want to see thousands of academies and free schools? I

:32:01.:32:04.

haven't been always a fan of the reform programme, but I recognise

:32:05.:32:07.

and I'm prepared to engage in disinterested and impartial

:32:08.:32:10.

assessment of the impact of the reform programme. On that view the

:32:11.:32:14.

free school programme, the use of excellent head teachers to change

:32:15.:32:19.

what is taking place in underperforming schools, and the

:32:20.:32:21.

subjects preparing young people for the challenges of the future.

:32:22.:32:25.

Whatever everyone says there is clear evidence that is changing the

:32:26.:32:28.

deal for young people today. Look at how many children, how many actual

:32:29.:32:32.

pupils there are in the number of free schools that have been deemed

:32:33.:32:35.

to be outstanding and good. The fact is, it is not the same as the

:32:36.:32:38.

proportion of schools that are being deemed to be outstanding and good.

:32:39.:32:44.

There are good schools everywhere. I'm not saying every free school is

:32:45.:32:48.

a bad school, I'm saying it is not the right system. If free schools

:32:49.:32:51.

can get more poorer children to the best universities is that good? If

:32:52.:32:55.

that were to be shown to the case we would have to look at it, but the

:32:56.:32:58.

fact is that is not what is happening. I would love Christine to

:32:59.:33:02.

come to our school and see that in action. Will you take up the

:33:03.:33:08.

invitation? People of academies and free schools always say that and I

:33:09.:33:12.

will always come if they invite me. Over the last few years the monthly

:33:13.:33:16.

wage statistics from the office of national statistics have taken on a

:33:17.:33:18.

new importance. Politicians all use numbers to argue about who is best

:33:19.:33:22.

placed to help lard working families, whilst the Bank of England

:33:23.:33:26.

watches them closely, looking for clues as to when to raise interest

:33:27.:33:30.

rates. But a new report out tomorrow from the Resolution Foundation

:33:31.:33:34.

think-tank, given to our economics correspondent suggests the numbers

:33:35.:33:38.

shouldn'ted be taken at face value. What has happened, what is going on?

:33:39.:33:43.

This is a very interesting report from the Resolution Foundation, out

:33:44.:33:47.

tomorrow. It casts a had you light on the wages figures on -- a new

:33:48.:33:52.

light on the wages figures. We know since the end of 2009 prices have

:33:53.:33:58.

been rising faster than wages. What economists call real wages have been

:33:59.:34:02.

falling and a squeeze on incomes. In the last few months there is

:34:03.:34:05.

optimistic signs that is turning around and the squeeze is coming to

:34:06.:34:09.

an end. These monthly figures completely exclude the

:34:10.:34:12.

self-employed. Does that matter? It matters quite a lot. It matters more

:34:13.:34:16.

than it used to. There has been a big rise in self-employment in

:34:17.:34:19.

recent years. In fact if you go back to the start of 2008 when the

:34:20.:34:23.

recession began, compared to now. We have a million more people in work

:34:24.:34:28.

today, six years on. We have an increase of 700,000 in

:34:29.:34:31.

self-employment. That is seven out of ten of net new jobs. It is one in

:34:32.:34:36.

four people, one in seven people in the UK are now self-employed. Does

:34:37.:34:40.

adding them into the figures change things radically? It is actually

:34:41.:34:44.

quite a big change. If we have a look at the official figures for the

:34:45.:34:47.

last few years. If we look at the height of the squeeze on incomes,

:34:48.:34:53.

2009-2012, you see overall real wages, wages after prices fell by

:34:54.:34:59.

almost 5 pest. If you look at -- 5%. If you look at the resolution

:35:00.:35:05.

figures those figures get big e it goes from 5 per cent to 8%. That is

:35:06.:35:11.

because the self-employed are more directly exposed to what is

:35:12.:35:14.

happening in the economy. When things are bad they take a bigger

:35:15.:35:19.

hit. But, when things are going well, they do much better. So it

:35:20.:35:24.

looks like this ONS measure we talk about, it is you understating the

:35:25.:35:28.

extent of the fall over the past few years, but it will now probably

:35:29.:35:33.

understate the rise in the coming years. Does this change anything in

:35:34.:35:38.

the sense that if these figures are a lot better, does that put pressure

:35:39.:35:43.

on Mark Carney, as far as interest rates are concerned? This is for

:35:44.:35:50.

people who are not concerned with geeks like we are. The Bank of

:35:51.:35:53.

England are looking at data at the moment, they are saying it is an

:35:54.:35:58.

indicator how much spare capacity there is, and if those figures are

:35:59.:36:03.

wrong that is a problem. There is the politics, Labour have been

:36:04.:36:06.

arguing that ordinary people are not benefitting from the economic

:36:07.:36:10.

recovery. The Government is rebutting that, this is ammunition

:36:11.:36:14.

in their battle. It matters if they are wrong. In 2012 we were told a

:36:15.:36:20.

double-dip recession and argy bargy about it, and a year later we are

:36:21.:36:26.

told there was no dip. Tonight in the second World Cup

:36:27.:36:31.

semifinal it is still 0-0 extra time, we will bring you the final

:36:32.:36:37.

score. But Brazilians are naturally fixated on the rout last night, when

:36:38.:36:43.

Germany seemed to mock Brazil with five goals in 30 minutes. Brazil's

:36:44.:36:55.

SKOECH, -- coach, Scolari, said he knew what it was to feel shame.

:36:56.:36:59.

It is the spiritual home of football, for years Brazil has

:37:00.:37:03.

enjoyed success on the world stage and dazzled crowds to boot. This

:37:04.:37:10.

World Cup was meant to represent an outward-looking confident country

:37:11.:37:19.

with a triumphant football team and an allegory for Brazil's arrival on

:37:20.:37:27.

the stage of power. Stunned crowds across Brazil, not quite sure

:37:28.:37:33.

whether to be angry or tearful. Today the inquest began with

:37:34.:37:37.

newspapers calling it a tragedy, a humiliation. And on the streets of

:37:38.:37:42.

Rio it was not hard to get a good deal on a replica shirt. It was not

:37:43.:37:46.

just the defeat but the manner of the defeat that has left a scar on

:37:47.:37:51.

the nation's psyche. The big question now is Brazil's national

:37:52.:37:56.

identity shattered and such a big part of that identity has been so

:37:57.:38:03.

uncermoniously wrecked. Never game like this, utter humiliation for the

:38:04.:38:07.

Brazilians. With me now to discuss the impact of that defeat on the

:38:08.:38:17.

national psyche is my guest. And my other guest, whose book details the

:38:18.:38:22.

history of the American team through six famous defeats and at the Brazil

:38:23.:38:30.

team training camp. After last night's drama tonight's game is

:38:31.:38:33.

shockingly dull. It is more interesting to listen to you,

:38:34.:38:35.

because you have just come out of the press conference. What is the

:38:36.:38:39.

mood in there, is there a lot of self-flagellation. ? Well I didn't

:38:40.:38:46.

like the timing, I wasn't hoping to expand the book so early. That

:38:47.:38:50.

happened, it was a shocking result, I don't think this will be as tragic

:38:51.:38:54.

as 1950 because the country has pulled off a fantastic World Cup,

:38:55.:38:58.

people should focus on that. There are no excuses for what happened on

:38:59.:39:04.

the pitch. This being a nation of football lovers, there would be a

:39:05.:39:08.

massive scar for the next few decades, the foreseeable future. How

:39:09.:39:12.

do you think this will be responded to, not just in 24 hours but over

:39:13.:39:17.

the coming days, because football was the great glue in Brazil that

:39:18.:39:21.

papered over a lot of really big problems? Yes, if you have a look at

:39:22.:39:27.

1950, that is the moment that Brazil tried to crystallise its identity,

:39:28.:39:32.

it didn't happen when it lost to Uraguy. So there was a lot of naval

:39:33.:39:38.

gazing and searching, psychologically, about what it meant

:39:39.:39:41.

to be Brazilian. It has since created its own identity, but

:39:42.:39:49.

tethered itself to a sport it is not good at any more. As far as you are

:39:50.:39:54.

concerned this is the come up pence, because it was -- comupence. Most of

:39:55.:40:02.

the country were behind the team. It is a brand at this stage, selling

:40:03.:40:07.

beer or soda in a sense that everyone's second-favourite team is

:40:08.:40:10.

Brazil and even the Brazilians believe it. When it got its come up

:40:11.:40:24.

uppenc it was not a surprise, just the manner. Do you think it is

:40:25.:40:28.

cosmetic now. Actually the hard graft to make a brilliant football

:40:29.:40:38.

team doesn't exist? It is part of the national identity and a huge

:40:39.:40:41.

thing. But it is not the end of the world. I like the fact that some

:40:42.:40:44.

people are looking at it and thinking maybe this is a time where

:40:45.:40:48.

we start thinking we are defined by football. Maybe we are not the best

:40:49.:40:52.

in the world any more. Maybe things can change. The Brazilian game is

:40:53.:40:56.

rigged with corruption and mismanagement. We know that even

:40:57.:41:03.

though this didn't cost as much as people said, there will be stadium

:41:04.:41:07.

that is are white elephants. Perhaps there will be changes for the game

:41:08.:41:13.

and the people.. It is a massive means of social mobility here. We

:41:14.:41:17.

are coming on to the Olympics, but dealing with tonight's game what do

:41:18.:41:21.

Brazilians want. Do they want to see a European final. Do they want to

:41:22.:41:27.

see Argentina in. They think of each other very differently? Between 1946

:41:28.:41:33.

and 956 they didn't meet in a competitive match. There is always a

:41:34.:41:38.

rivalry between the two. Brazil doesn't want messy lifting the World

:41:39.:41:44.

Cup trough -- Messi lifting the World Cup trophy. It would grind the

:41:45.:41:49.

faces into the dust? What Argentina will want to do is win the World Cup

:41:50.:41:53.

there. That has been the plan all along. To win in the Maracana on

:41:54.:41:58.

Sunday. Here we have a Brazil, one of the BRIC countries, supposedly on

:41:59.:42:05.

the rise, economically. But of course, before we had all the

:42:06.:42:11.

developments for the World Cup, with the riots leading up to the

:42:12.:42:14.

elections in October. Is there something about Brazil that is very

:42:15.:42:17.

troubled at the moment? Yes, I think it was there before. I think as the

:42:18.:42:22.

World Cup is basically papered over the cracks, so in a sense the World

:42:23.:42:26.

Cup, as the Olympics, is a holiday for the world. It take as vacation

:42:27.:42:34.

for a month, and everything is suspended as it were, and reality to

:42:35.:42:39.

the foreon Monday again. We have the idea, do you think there can be any

:42:40.:42:45.

hope carrying them over to the Olympic spirit keeping the Brazilian

:42:46.:42:54.

people feeling optimistic. It will be fantastic opportunity for Brazil

:42:55.:42:59.

to showcase itself. Not the myth of the dancing ladies or theal bore al

:43:00.:43:12.

tambourines. A sporting event will not solve problems but will trigger

:43:13.:43:17.

a wave that might do something. I think it would be massive comedown,

:43:18.:43:22.

and it has started already thanks to the Germans, but it is a good

:43:23.:43:25.

opportunity for Brazilians to showcase themselves and the country

:43:26.:43:28.

as people. That can't be underestimated. Thank you very much.

:43:29.:43:31.

Just to let you know that actually at half time in extra time it is

:43:32.:43:36.

still 0-0. Before we go a word about last night's programme. During a

:43:37.:43:42.

live item about party whips former Tory whip kneel Hamilton referred to

:43:43.:43:50.

a former MP, now dead, who said and been known to engage in wrong

:43:51.:43:58.

behaviour, he was referred to as the wrong MP, Mr Rogers is not the

:43:59.:44:03.

person known to engage in outrageous behaviour, we apologise to him

:44:04.:44:09.

unreservedly for the embarrassment caused. Now the front pages:

:44:10.:44:40.

We have a story from the Sun? From the political editor, he's reporting

:44:41.:44:46.

that the so called snoopers charter, the idea that Security Services

:44:47.:44:50.

wanted more powers to be able to look at everybody's internet

:44:51.:44:52.

activity over the past year, that was blocked because the Liberal

:44:53.:44:56.

Democrats didn't like it. The Sun is reporting that actually that is now

:44:57.:45:00.

going to go ahead, a deal has been cut, and Downing Street refusing to

:45:01.:45:03.

confirm it, saying it is a national security issue. My sources are

:45:04.:45:09.

saying there will be a meeting tomorrow at 8.00am. They have said

:45:10.:45:17.

it will be only serious crimes and high-level terrorism issues but not

:45:18.:45:21.

blanket. That is all we have for you tonight, we leave you with beautiful

:45:22.:45:26.

thoughts, beautiful images. Here is the work of a Dutch physicist, who

:45:27.:45:32.

combines nature photography and X-ray technology. Good night.

:45:33.:45:42.

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