Browse content similar to 09/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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In an exclusive interview, the Chief Inspector of prisons tell us | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
Newsnight that he's concerned about the steep increase in jail suicides. | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
And the overall conditions in prisons. We are seeing a lot more | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
prisons that aren't meeting an acceptable standard across a range | :00:20. | :00:21. | |
of things that we look at. And I go to most of these inspections and I | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
see with my own eyes a deterioration. I will be speaking to | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
the man who runs our prisons in England and Wales. Newsnight exposes | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
the organisations unwittingly advertising alongside Jihadi videos | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
on-line, including Oxfam and the National Citizens Service, as a | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
result they have both withdrawn their ads. When they strike tomorrow | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
teachers reserve ire for Michael Gove's reform, he don't seem to like | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
them either. There are a small group of people and tend to be | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
ideolgically motivated opposed to what we are doing. There is an | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
overwhelming majority of teachers doing the right thing. We will | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
debate the strikes with the General Secretary of the NUT and cheerleader | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
for Michael Gove's reforms who is opening his own free school. | :01:10. | :01:19. | |
They once stood for all that was beautiful in the beautiful game, | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
last night they fell to the uglyist of defeat, will Brazil ever get over | :01:24. | :01:34. | |
the trauma. Good evening, the Chief Inspector of | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
prisons in England and Wales has spoken exclusively to Newsnight and | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
very frankly about his inspection findings. The deteriorating state of | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
the prison climate, particularly over the last few months, increased | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
suicide, more violence, self-harm, more overcrowding, more | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
unpredictable regimes. He paints a picture of finding prisoners hiding | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
in different bits of the jails, scared of the high levels of | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
violence and calls for action. With the exclusive new research from the | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
Howard League, our investigations correspondent reports. | :02:08. | :02:17. | |
He had visible scars on his neck from the first time. The first time | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
he did it he did it with shoelaces, and they were very deep, and any | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
time he went out he used to ask me to put concealer on it to cover them | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
up, because he didn't like people seeing them. You believe it would | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
have been obvious to anyone? You couldn't miss them. It would have | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
been obvious that he was someone who was a troubled individual and needed | :02:41. | :02:49. | |
extra care? Definitely. Greg was 18, he was in prison for a second time, | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
the first had been for threatening someone with a dumbbell handle, the | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
second he was on remand after being found carrying a knife. Four weeks | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
ago prison officers found him dead in his cell. Greg wasn't just | :03:04. | :03:11. | |
naughty, I always thought he had some sort of mental health problem. | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
If that was me and I was in that job I would have had him on suicide | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
watch, given his previous history. How long had he been in the prison | :03:20. | :03:33. | |
before he died? Two nights? What is going on behind the UK's prison | :03:34. | :03:41. | |
walls? In an exclusive interview the Chief Inspector of Prisons has told | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
Newsnight of his fears of a deep and worrying malaise. Understaffed and | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
overpopulated campaigners fear our prisons are fast spiralling out of | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
control. Some even say that recent cuts have cost prisoners' lives. | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
Prison suicides hit a high of 96 in 2004, but started to fall again over | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
the rest of the decade. Now they, as well as incidents of self-harm are | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
on the rise again. In 2012 there were 60 suicides in 2013 there were | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
74. Exclusive figures seen by Newsnight, compiled by the Howard | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
League for Penal Reform show they are on course to rise again this | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
year too. They show there were 42 suicides in the first six months of | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
this year, that compares to 30 in the same period last year. This is | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
beyond a crisis, this is prisons now in meltdown. I really worry about | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
staff and prisoners over the summer and I worry about the consequences | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
for the public because people will come out of prison so bitter, so | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
angry, so frightened, so violent, that they will inflict that misery | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
on the rest of us. For the Chief Inspector of Prisons it is not just | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
about suicides. I think they are an indication of wider problems in the | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
Prison Service, and indications of a system that is under growing | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
pressure. It is not acceptable we have this rate of suicides in | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
prison. You go to prisons all the way around the country, have you | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
noticed any changes across the board over the last few months? Certainly | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
if you look at, since the beginning of this year, our inspection | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
findings have dropped significantly. We are seeing a lot more prisons | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
that aren't now meeting an acceptable standard across the range | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
of things we look at. And I go to most of these inspections and I see | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
with my own eyes a deterioration. Tomorrow's report will show the | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
number of prison officers has dropped from 27,000 in 2010 to | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
19,000. A 30% cut. Take Wandsworth, four years ago it had 427 staff | :05:57. | :06:04. | |
looking after 1,603 prisoners. As of last September it had 270 staff, the | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
number of inmates now is almost identical. Ministers are now having | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
to rehire staff to cover the gaps. Gaps that come as no surprise to | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
prison governors. We were saying that we were heading for a shortage | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
some time before the Prison Service reacted to it. I think that they | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
were slow in starting the recruitment drive. This is Kevin | :06:31. | :06:38. | |
Scarlet, he died in prison just over a year ago. A coroner has already | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
been highly critical of Kevin's treatment in Wood Hill Prison. He | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
said Kevin's risk of suicide was not properly assessed and he should have | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
been allocated to a safer cell, Kevin too had previously attempted | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
suicide. If he had been in a safer cell, closer to the wing officers, | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
he would have been under more supervision with less ligature | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
points, so he wouldn't have been able to tie up a ligature. Had you | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
assumed that Kevin would be safe in prison? Yes, that is the assumption. | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
At the end of the day the Ministry of Justice do have a duty of care to | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
keep these prisoners safe, whether from themselves or other prisoners. | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
There are processes in place to aid them in this. If they use the | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
processes properly, I believe Kevin would still be here. Justice | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
Secretary Chris Grayling is known for talking tough, he recently | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
talked about a 10. 30 lights out for young offenders. While hardliners | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
have public support, insiders say they risk creating unrest. They may | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
whisper it but prison governors admit our jails are run on consent | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
not coercion, they say 10% of inmates are never trouble, and | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
another ten are always in trouble, and the rest they will play along if | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
they think the regime is fair. If they don't, if you lose them, then | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
our jails become ungovernable. So fewer political statements from the | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
Justice Secretary would be welcomed by your members? Absolutely. I think | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
it would be nice if statements were factual and neutral and not | :08:19. | :08:27. | |
preorive. I don't know if that is an unrealistic wish. It would be really | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
useful to have the politics taken out of prisons. While campaigners | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
uses words to put their case, the Prison Service uses them to counter | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
it. There is a danger that the Prison Service and the politicians | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
in charge in a sense overanalyse the figures and actually miss what is | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
under their noses on the wings, which sometimes I think people being | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
held in deplorable conditions, who are suicidal, who don't have | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
anything to do and who don't have anyone to talk to. So I think we | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
need to concentrate on what's obvious in front of our noses and | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
sort that. We had Amazing Grace, we sang that. Karen says she owes it to | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
her son to prove his death was avoidable. For everyone involved in | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
prisons there is no greater challenge, how to stop prisoners | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
dying in our jails. Earlier I went to interview the man | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
who runs prisons in England and Wales, the chief executive of the | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
National Offender Management Service, Michael Spur. The Chief | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
Inspector of Prisons has told Newsnight that he's very worried | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
about the steep rise in prison suicides, are you? Of course I'm | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
worried. Any increase in suicides has to be a worry, because that | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
involves somebody's life and families and people losing their | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
lives, that has got to be a worry. From 42 in June 2000 this year, from | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
30 in the same period last year, it is almost half again. You say you | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
are worried but what are you actually doing about it? We have | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
reduced the level of suicides, that has been a really important and | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
positive movement over the last ten years. We have now gone up again, | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
and we are back to a let of suicides. A 50% increase in the last | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
two years? We are back to 2007 levels. That is worrying. We have | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
reinforced all the things we have done over recent years to bring the | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
suicide rate down. It is complicated and doesn't lend itself to simple | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
solutions. 215 deaths in custody last year, the highest number since | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
2001 and you are trying to operate with fewer staff, it is like one | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
hand tied behind your back? We are operating with fewer staff and 16 | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
fewer prisons and we have tight financial constraints as all aspects | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
of the public sector have. The Chief Inspector of Prisons told Newsnight | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
since the start of the year the inspection findings have dropped | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
considerably, he sees with his own eyes a deterioration, so if you put | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
together the Ministry of Justice's own data about violence, suicide and | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
self-harm, with the overall inspection findings and he's clear | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
the situation has deteriorated over the last few months and he says | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
there needs to be action to address it. Why is this happening? Over the | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
last six months we have studied with additional pressure, the population | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
has gone up greater than anticipated. At the same time we | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
have ended up with fewer staff than we need, actually. That is partly | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
because there has been a greater turnover in the south-east because | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
the economy has picked up. It is also because we have chosen to put | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
700 posts back into prisons. We have taken action. We have taken action | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
to recruit staff needily from August and former staff on temporary | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
contracts and we are recruiting 1600 staff this year. So the Chief | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
Inspector is right, there has been some deterioration, but have we | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
taken action? Absolutely. Do you accept you should have fought harder | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
not to be below that number, that you had budget cuts that were too | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
deep? I don't accept that. I accept that events have happened which have | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
meant that we have had to respond urgently to those events and we are | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
responding by recruiting more staff. That is because we put the priority | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
on safety and security and decently and we're not simply looking to | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
drive savings out where we can put people can risk. How many prisoners | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
are sharing cells designed for one prisoner? About 23% of the | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
population are in crowded conditions sharing cells. So one in five | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
prisoners is in a crowded cell? Yes. In 2014? I would like no crowding in | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
prisons but we have had it as long as I have been in the Prison Service | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
for 30 years. The crowding we have today is lower than for the last ten | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
years. Of course I would like a position where we wouldn't have | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
anyone in crowded cells, can we manage people in crowded cells, | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
safely, yes. The Ministry of Justice budget cuts are going to be ?2. 4 | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
billion leading up to 2016, you are a major part of the Ministry of | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
Justice, are you taking more budget cuts in the service next year? We | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
are having to make over the Spending Review period about 25% budget | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
reduction. That is across prisons, probation and my headquarters and we | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
are on track to deliver that, but we are delivering it by ensuring that | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
we're working differently by taking sensible action to reconfigure the | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
estate, which means fewer prisons. You have 4,500 fewer prisoner places | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
than you need at the moment, even with the two prises that are | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
private? We have enough places for all the prisoners we have at the | :13:48. | :13:49. | |
moment. You haven't if you have overcrowding? Crowding has been a | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
feature of the system for 30 years plus. So it is acceptable? It is not | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
acceptable, but to get rid of overcrowding would cost ?900 | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
million, which we do not have. We are retaining the level of | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
overcrowding, that is not ideal. We are not expanding it, it is lower | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
than in the last ten years and it is not ideal. But it is manageable as | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
it has been in the system for many years. Of course I would like not to | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
have that, but we don't have the ?900 million enabling us to get rid | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
of it. We can't have a modern Prison Service? I would love the | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
opportunity to have no overcrowding, realistically with the financial | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
position the country is in, ?900 million to eradicate overcrowding, | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
much as I would love to have it, isn't something that is realistic at | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
the moment. Thank you very much. The two British Jihadis who | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
yesterday admitted to preparing acts of terrorism were allegedly | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
radicalised on-line. In Jihadi videos from ISIS and other extremist | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
groups have become prime tools for radicalising Muslims. The companies | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
that host the videos have to bear the costs which they recoup by | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
selling adverts. Newsnight has found that charity and even Government ads | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
have been running before some Jihadi video, not the sort of stuff that | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
any advertisers would want to be associated with. Your summer needs | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
all things NCS. Searching for something. How did these happy | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
smiling faces in an advert for a good cause end up on the Internet | :15:21. | :15:32. | |
next to this. Jihadi videos can be brutal. Shocking. Designed not just | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
to attract support, but to help persuade young people to fight. | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
Video uploaded from anywhere, whether the frontline or even from a | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
radical preacher's phone. But look for them... And you will quickly | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
find something else too. So that's the little tearse of some of the fun | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
you could have with NCS, be sure to share your summer. We found adverts | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
funded with tax-payers' cash popping up before these videos. There is one | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
for the National Citizens Service, the coalition's modern-day | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
equivalent of national service. It is meant to be improving for young | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
people and society alike. And hardly sits comfortably next to these | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
messages designed to promote Jihad. We also found adverts from charities | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
like Oxfam, multinational companies, and even the BBC. All becoming | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
unwitting on-line neighbours to extremists. Jihadis who upload the | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
videos to the web could even be making money from them. Without the | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
advertisers' knowledge their ads end up alongside in a sort of commercial | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
accident. If I want to advertise on YouTube, I pay YouTube, they keep a | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
large chunk of it and they give the rest to whoever the person who | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
uploaded the video that the ads are being run against. If you think | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
about how much content is being uploaded to YouTube, it is about 70 | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
hours every minute, or something crazy like that. Of course you can't | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
police what is being advertised against every single video. On the | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
other hand, you know, you could say it is incumbent upon YouTube to make | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
sure that ads aren't being run against questionable, or next to | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
questionable content. In response to what we want the Citizens Service | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
suspended their account with YouTube temporarily, the ad has been removed | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
from the video. Oxfam says it was not acceptable, their ad has been | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
removed. The BBC says it will re-think its ad policy. Increasingly | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
it is a way of spreading extremism on YouTube. One Jihadist we have | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
spoken to says he considers on-line media half of Jihad. The unfortunate | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
positions of these media side-by-side is clearly inadvertent, | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
but social media and the funding from it does really matter. One | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
British man, who has been making radical videos for years has told | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
Newsnight, when it comes to Jihad your Samsung S5 is as important as | :18:15. | :18:26. | |
your AK-46. 47. YouTube says they will remove video that is violate | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
their policies. Another website told us they take action quickly and have | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
taken one down as a result of our findings. Video content is important | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
for Jihadist movements, it is emotive, and it be powerful for | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
viewers watching it. On its own it is not really enough to radicalise a | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
young man or young woman into violent action. But when it is mixed | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
with other factors it can certainly facilitate or speed it up or | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
encourage people to act. However effective the increasing ease and | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
falling costs of technology are making it simpler and simpler for | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
extremists to use dramatic videos as calls to arm, propaganda just for a | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
matter of pennies. With more and more advertising run automatically, | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
where images end up is increasingly decided by machine. Whatever content | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
is posted, it is growing faster than we can keep up. | :19:29. | :19:37. | |
Amongst the expectant million public sectors striking tomorrow over pay | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
and tensions and jobs, will be teachers for whom there is an added | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
furious protest against Michael Gove's signature education reforms | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
which have delivered approval for 331 free schools so far in England | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
and a new curriculum. With perfect timing, as the teachers are standing | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
in the picket lines, the Education Secretary will be hosting a global | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
summit in London for education reformers, ahead of it he wrote in | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
today's Telegraph, seeming to suggest his reforms of equivalent | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
magnitude to the Thatcher economic reforms in the 1980s. | :20:09. | :20:15. | |
If Michael Gove can remain in his job until the next election, he will | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
have become the longest-serving Education Secretary in modern times, | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
but he has made enemies, enemies he calls "the blob". What has he done, | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
his central idea, free school, are free of central local authority | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
control, 174 are ready and 157 in the pipeline. 4,000 across England | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
in total. That is a lot of new schools to monitor and Michael Gove | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
has faced criticism for a lack of oversight. He's a fighter and he | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
makes great claims. There are 24% of free schools inspected by Ofsted | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
that are outstanding. That is compared with 20% of other schools | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
inspected. This is a tricky comparison. There are so few free | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
schools and lots of other schools are yet to be under the new regime. | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
Many fights along the way. The teaching union, once again on strike | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
tomorrow, many parents, authors, historians, former Labour allies | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
like Sally Morgan, and the coalition partners he once courted. I caught | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
up with Michael Gove as his conference got under way. I started | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
by asking why have people come around the world to see just 300 | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
free schools. Free schools are one of the ways we are reforming | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
education. Of course the success of free schools is one of the things | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
that has attracted people. Free schools are twice as likely to be | :21:33. | :21:34. | |
outstanding as other schools which have been inspected under the tough | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
new Ofsted framework. What we have sought to do is create great new | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
schools in areas that really need them. Now that the first 174 have | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
been set up. Now there are another more than 100 in the pipeline, | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
people can see that this is a success and I expect that after the | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
election Conservative Education Secretary, whether me or someone | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
else, will want massively to increase those numbers. How will you | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
do that? One way in Sweden, which for you is the model, was profit | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
making. Will that be part of how you scale up from what you are talking | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
about, which is hundreds, to thousands? No. You are ruling that | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
out? Yes. I don't believe you need profit. I asked a number of | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
reformers across the globe, do you think that it would make a big | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
difference? Uniformly from left-to-right, from governor Jed | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
Bush to others in the United States who have pioneered education reform. | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
To people in Europe who also admire what we are doing, they say it is | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
not necessary. The profit motive becomes as it were a way of on | :22:36. | :22:46. | |
opposition to change. We need to significantly increase the number of | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
schools that enjoy the autonomy that academy chains can bring but also | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
the support they bring. That is likely to be in the next manifesto | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
for you to get from hundreds to thousands? We want to increase the | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
number of free schools, that will be in the manifesto, also in the | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
manifesto will be a scale of ambition, specifically in | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
encouraging more primary schools to become academies as well. One of the | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
big success stories of reform in the past 12 months has been the way in | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
which primary schools that were once considered to be basically beyond | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
redemption have been transformed. You are minded that every school | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
should be part of an academy chain? That is the direction we want to | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
move. I don't want to be prescriptive. But you can tell | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
viewers tonight if there is a Tory Government or part of a Government | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
there will be thousands and thousands more academy chains? If | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
there are, if there is a Conservative Secretary of State for | :23:45. | :23:46. | |
Education after the next election me or someone else we will ensure that | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
many, many more primary schools benefit from academy status. The | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
Prime Minister at PMQs talked about the next manifesto, he said there | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
would be some kind of new strike legislation, you know the | :23:59. | :24:00. | |
legislation better than anyone in the country. You must have a feeling | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
about what would be a good level to put the threshold at? I don't. | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
Because I think it is important that we make some judgments about what | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
the right threshold would be. And it is also important that we consider | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
one or two other things that might involve folks saying for example | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
saying there needs to be thresholds in schools. Which schools are you | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
referring to? One of the ideas discussed in the past is you need to | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
have a majority within a particular work place, within a particular | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
school and local authority area or within for example a particular | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
academy chain before industrial action can be taken. I think it is | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
important that we have a debate and discussion about how we can ensure | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
that children are protected from what is essentially politically | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
motivated industrial reaction. 16% of teachers support you, how did you | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
end up losing so many of them? I'm not sure how accurate that poll is. | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
Do you think it is more accurate, how many would you say support you? | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
I couldn't put a finger on it. What is your impression of how many, you | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
walk into a room of teachers, hopefully representative, what is it | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
half the room, a third of the room or 16 of the room? What is striking | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
while I can't put an absolute number on it, what I can tell you is | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
outstanding teachers and outstanding head teachers are, I find, | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
overwhelmingly in favour of what we are doing. It is the bad ones that | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
don't get it? Yes. Why do you think you haven't been able to persuade | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
those joining the strikes tomorrow? They are a minority. It is important | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
to stress as the Prime Minister did today, that the ballot, which | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
legitimises this strike is two years old, and the turnout which validated | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
that ballot was small. There are lots of people as members of trades | :25:50. | :25:56. | |
unions will support the fact it is a legally constituted ballot, but I | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
absolutely think this strike is damaging, that the NUT leadership | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
has a responsibility to engage in talks to improve children's | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
education rather than industrial action which actually holds children | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
back. Do we work hard as a nation, countries in the tables above us, | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
the South Koreans just work and read 18 hours day? I think it is | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
important, yes, to encourage hard work at school. I think it is also | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
important to balance that with all the other things we want, as a | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
father, we want our children to do, playing football and having funs. | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
However, I think it is the case that as a country we don't read enough. | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
Adults are not reading enough in this country? I think all of us | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
should read more. I think that it is great to see that I think the | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
numbers of books being bought, both e-books and physical volumes is at | :26:51. | :26:58. | |
an all-time high. They are not being finished? If Thomas Piquit, he's | :26:59. | :27:08. | |
book it is not being finished. How many do you read a year? 30 or 40. | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
Do you tot it up? I try to keep a note. Gladstone did that didn't he? | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
That is all we have in common. Joining me now is the General | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
Secretary of the National Union of Teachers who has called a strike | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
tomorrow, and the executive principle of an academy in Leeds, | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
who plans to open his first free school in September. First of all | :27:34. | :27:35. | |
you are striking tomorrow on the basis of a ballot from two years ago | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
in which only 27% of teachers took part? Where is the democracy in | :27:40. | :27:47. | |
that? The fact is it is perfectly legitimate as Michael Gove said, | :27:48. | :27:55. | |
ballot. We voted for at thises continued action with no end state. | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
27% of teachers took part? The turnout we have had subsequent to | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
that has been higher. Let me tell you about turnout. The rules that | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
govern how a blot for industrial action has to be done. It has to be | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
a fully posted ballot to every member. If the they wanted to | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
improve the ballot turnout, they could change the legislation and say | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
people could vote on-line or at their work place or any manner of | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
different kinds of ways. Do you believe it should be a statute of | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
limitations on strikes, as David Cameron today said he wanted to see? | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
I don't think that is important, it is important to get it across and | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
have a highest turnout. The statute of limb takes I don't understand | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
what -- limitations he's talking about I don't know. We would like to | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
see strike action only taken in extreme circumstances, that is not | :28:50. | :28:51. | |
represented here. You listen to teachers who have essentially lost, | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
what, 15% of their pay since the coalition came in, the pension | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
rights are changed. They have a legitimate grievance, they are not | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
valued in society are they? I don't see that at all, I see teachers | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
proud of what they are achieving and making enormous contributions to the | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
world children come from. And this reform programme, changing the lives | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
of children from the most disadvantaged backgrounds in our | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
country. On strike action, you have the members in your school they are | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
members of a union? I am too. Of course. On the question of whether | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
or not teachers should be backing the reforms, you heard Michael Gove | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
say there, first of all there is a minority that ideolgically are | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
driven, and are actually not very good, they don't support us, and the | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
majority do support us. Do you accept that actually as a teacher, | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
holding out for reforms for teachers which are not necessarily best for | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
children, then you are seen as reactionary? What our policies in | :29:51. | :29:59. | |
the NUT are we think are best for children. There is no contention | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
about being concerned about the fact that your pension has lost value and | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
your pay has lost 15% and wanting to do the best by children. Very many | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
teachers hold both those views at the same time. When the Government | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
is unprepared to talk about policy changes at all, then we are forced | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
eventually to take strike action about it. Are you not concerned that | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
disadvantaged children, so far, statistically, are less likely to go | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
to free schools? I think having been someone who has applied and gone | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
through the free schools programme, somebody an applicant for, that I | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
understand how rigorous the process of assessment for free schools is. | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
We are opening the first free school in September, and we have another | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
one to follow in the following September. I can assure you in the | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
application process the rigorous assessment on what imfact we will | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
have on disadvantaged children is very deep in that process. Our | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
schools opening will be almost entirely focussed on narrowing the | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
gap in performance which is such a problem nationally. When you have | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
said in defending the status quo that 36% of pupils free school meals | :31:05. | :31:12. | |
achieve five good GCSEs. That is not a good statistic at all? No, the | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
fact is the way you improve things is by things like the London | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
Challenge. London used to be the worst performing region in the | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
country, there was a peer school-to-school improvement system, | :31:28. | :31:29. | |
we are now the best performing region in the country. There are | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
much better ways of improving things than by floating schools off and | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
changing their governance structure. What you need to do is focus on | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
every school being a good school and having a local authority help you is | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
the best way to do that. Do you accept the local authorities have a | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
strong role to play in some schools? In some schools, certainly. There is | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
nothing in the policy development that contradicts that. You heard | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
Michael Gove say that if a Conservative Government returned he | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
would want to see thousands of academies and free schools? I | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
haven't been always a fan of the reform programme, but I recognise | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
and I'm prepared to engage in disinterested and impartial | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
assessment of the impact of the reform programme. On that view the | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
free school programme, the use of excellent head teachers to change | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
what is taking place in underperforming schools, and the | :32:20. | :32:21. | |
subjects preparing young people for the challenges of the future. | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
Whatever everyone says there is clear evidence that is changing the | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
deal for young people today. Look at how many children, how many actual | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
pupils there are in the number of free schools that have been deemed | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
to be outstanding and good. The fact is, it is not the same as the | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
proportion of schools that are being deemed to be outstanding and good. | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
There are good schools everywhere. I'm not saying every free school is | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
a bad school, I'm saying it is not the right system. If free schools | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
can get more poorer children to the best universities is that good? If | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
that were to be shown to the case we would have to look at it, but the | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
fact is that is not what is happening. I would love Christine to | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
come to our school and see that in action. Will you take up the | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
invitation? People of academies and free schools always say that and I | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
will always come if they invite me. Over the last few years the monthly | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
wage statistics from the office of national statistics have taken on a | :33:17. | :33:18. | |
new importance. Politicians all use numbers to argue about who is best | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
placed to help lard working families, whilst the Bank of England | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
watches them closely, looking for clues as to when to raise interest | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
rates. But a new report out tomorrow from the Resolution Foundation | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
think-tank, given to our economics correspondent suggests the numbers | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
shouldn'ted be taken at face value. What has happened, what is going on? | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
This is a very interesting report from the Resolution Foundation, out | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
tomorrow. It casts a had you light on the wages figures on -- a new | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
light on the wages figures. We know since the end of 2009 prices have | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
been rising faster than wages. What economists call real wages have been | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
falling and a squeeze on incomes. In the last few months there is | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
optimistic signs that is turning around and the squeeze is coming to | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
an end. These monthly figures completely exclude the | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
self-employed. Does that matter? It matters quite a lot. It matters more | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
than it used to. There has been a big rise in self-employment in | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
recent years. In fact if you go back to the start of 2008 when the | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
recession began, compared to now. We have a million more people in work | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
today, six years on. We have an increase of 700,000 in | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
self-employment. That is seven out of ten of net new jobs. It is one in | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
four people, one in seven people in the UK are now self-employed. Does | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
adding them into the figures change things radically? It is actually | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
quite a big change. If we have a look at the official figures for the | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
last few years. If we look at the height of the squeeze on incomes, | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
2009-2012, you see overall real wages, wages after prices fell by | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
almost 5 pest. If you look at -- 5%. If you look at the resolution | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
figures those figures get big e it goes from 5 per cent to 8%. That is | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
because the self-employed are more directly exposed to what is | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
happening in the economy. When things are bad they take a bigger | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
hit. But, when things are going well, they do much better. So it | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
looks like this ONS measure we talk about, it is you understating the | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
extent of the fall over the past few years, but it will now probably | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
understate the rise in the coming years. Does this change anything in | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
the sense that if these figures are a lot better, does that put pressure | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
on Mark Carney, as far as interest rates are concerned? This is for | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
people who are not concerned with geeks like we are. The Bank of | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
England are looking at data at the moment, they are saying it is an | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
indicator how much spare capacity there is, and if those figures are | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
wrong that is a problem. There is the politics, Labour have been | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
arguing that ordinary people are not benefitting from the economic | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
recovery. The Government is rebutting that, this is ammunition | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
in their battle. It matters if they are wrong. In 2012 we were told a | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
double-dip recession and argy bargy about it, and a year later we are | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
told there was no dip. Tonight in the second World Cup | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
semifinal it is still 0-0 extra time, we will bring you the final | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
score. But Brazilians are naturally fixated on the rout last night, when | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
Germany seemed to mock Brazil with five goals in 30 minutes. Brazil's | :36:44. | :36:55. | |
SKOECH, -- coach, Scolari, said he knew what it was to feel shame. | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
It is the spiritual home of football, for years Brazil has | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
enjoyed success on the world stage and dazzled crowds to boot. This | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
World Cup was meant to represent an outward-looking confident country | :37:11. | :37:19. | |
with a triumphant football team and an allegory for Brazil's arrival on | :37:20. | :37:27. | |
the stage of power. Stunned crowds across Brazil, not quite sure | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
whether to be angry or tearful. Today the inquest began with | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
newspapers calling it a tragedy, a humiliation. And on the streets of | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
Rio it was not hard to get a good deal on a replica shirt. It was not | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
just the defeat but the manner of the defeat that has left a scar on | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
the nation's psyche. The big question now is Brazil's national | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
identity shattered and such a big part of that identity has been so | :37:57. | :38:03. | |
uncermoniously wrecked. Never game like this, utter humiliation for the | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
Brazilians. With me now to discuss the impact of that defeat on the | :38:08. | :38:17. | |
national psyche is my guest. And my other guest, whose book details the | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
history of the American team through six famous defeats and at the Brazil | :38:23. | :38:30. | |
team training camp. After last night's drama tonight's game is | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
shockingly dull. It is more interesting to listen to you, | :38:34. | :38:35. | |
because you have just come out of the press conference. What is the | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
mood in there, is there a lot of self-flagellation. ? Well I didn't | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
like the timing, I wasn't hoping to expand the book so early. That | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
happened, it was a shocking result, I don't think this will be as tragic | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
as 1950 because the country has pulled off a fantastic World Cup, | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
people should focus on that. There are no excuses for what happened on | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
the pitch. This being a nation of football lovers, there would be a | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
massive scar for the next few decades, the foreseeable future. How | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
do you think this will be responded to, not just in 24 hours but over | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
the coming days, because football was the great glue in Brazil that | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
papered over a lot of really big problems? Yes, if you have a look at | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
1950, that is the moment that Brazil tried to crystallise its identity, | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
it didn't happen when it lost to Uraguy. So there was a lot of naval | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
gazing and searching, psychologically, about what it meant | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
to be Brazilian. It has since created its own identity, but | :39:42. | :39:49. | |
tethered itself to a sport it is not good at any more. As far as you are | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
concerned this is the come up pence, because it was -- comupence. Most of | :39:55. | :40:02. | |
the country were behind the team. It is a brand at this stage, selling | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
beer or soda in a sense that everyone's second-favourite team is | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
Brazil and even the Brazilians believe it. When it got its come up | :40:11. | :40:24. | |
uppenc it was not a surprise, just the manner. Do you think it is | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
cosmetic now. Actually the hard graft to make a brilliant football | :40:29. | :40:38. | |
team doesn't exist? It is part of the national identity and a huge | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
thing. But it is not the end of the world. I like the fact that some | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
people are looking at it and thinking maybe this is a time where | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
we start thinking we are defined by football. Maybe we are not the best | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
in the world any more. Maybe things can change. The Brazilian game is | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
rigged with corruption and mismanagement. We know that even | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
though this didn't cost as much as people said, there will be stadium | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
that is are white elephants. Perhaps there will be changes for the game | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
and the people.. It is a massive means of social mobility here. We | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
are coming on to the Olympics, but dealing with tonight's game what do | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
Brazilians want. Do they want to see a European final. Do they want to | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
see Argentina in. They think of each other very differently? Between 1946 | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
and 956 they didn't meet in a competitive match. There is always a | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
rivalry between the two. Brazil doesn't want messy lifting the World | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
Cup trough -- Messi lifting the World Cup trophy. It would grind the | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
faces into the dust? What Argentina will want to do is win the World Cup | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
there. That has been the plan all along. To win in the Maracana on | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
Sunday. Here we have a Brazil, one of the BRIC countries, supposedly on | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
the rise, economically. But of course, before we had all the | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
developments for the World Cup, with the riots leading up to the | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
elections in October. Is there something about Brazil that is very | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
troubled at the moment? Yes, I think it was there before. I think as the | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
World Cup is basically papered over the cracks, so in a sense the World | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
Cup, as the Olympics, is a holiday for the world. It take as vacation | :42:27. | :42:34. | |
for a month, and everything is suspended as it were, and reality to | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
the foreon Monday again. We have the idea, do you think there can be any | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
hope carrying them over to the Olympic spirit keeping the Brazilian | :42:46. | :42:54. | |
people feeling optimistic. It will be fantastic opportunity for Brazil | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
to showcase itself. Not the myth of the dancing ladies or theal bore al | :43:00. | :43:12. | |
tambourines. A sporting event will not solve problems but will trigger | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
a wave that might do something. I think it would be massive comedown, | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
and it has started already thanks to the Germans, but it is a good | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
opportunity for Brazilians to showcase themselves and the country | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
as people. That can't be underestimated. Thank you very much. | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
Just to let you know that actually at half time in extra time it is | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
still 0-0. Before we go a word about last night's programme. During a | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
live item about party whips former Tory whip kneel Hamilton referred to | :43:43. | :43:50. | |
a former MP, now dead, who said and been known to engage in wrong | :43:51. | :43:58. | |
behaviour, he was referred to as the wrong MP, Mr Rogers is not the | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
person known to engage in outrageous behaviour, we apologise to him | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
unreservedly for the embarrassment caused. Now the front pages: | :44:10. | :44:40. | |
We have a story from the Sun? From the political editor, he's reporting | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
that the so called snoopers charter, the idea that Security Services | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
wanted more powers to be able to look at everybody's internet | :44:51. | :44:52. | |
activity over the past year, that was blocked because the Liberal | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
Democrats didn't like it. The Sun is reporting that actually that is now | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
going to go ahead, a deal has been cut, and Downing Street refusing to | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
confirm it, saying it is a national security issue. My sources are | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
saying there will be a meeting tomorrow at 8.00am. They have said | :45:10. | :45:17. | |
it will be only serious crimes and high-level terrorism issues but not | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
blanket. That is all we have for you tonight, we leave you with beautiful | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
thoughts, beautiful images. Here is the work of a Dutch physicist, who | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
combines nature photography and X-ray technology. Good night. | :45:33. | :45:42. |