10/07/2014 Newsnight


10/07/2014

News stories with Kirsty Wark. Including surveillance through the back door, who can prevent war in Gaza, Michael Gove vs the NUT, Peter Greenaway interview and Conservative youth.


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act between privacy and security. It is not the sort of thing you can put

:00:24.:00:26.

through the House of Commons in a single day. You have to think about

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it carefully. As the conflagration burns in the Middle East, have we

:00:32.:00:35.

entered a dangerous new phase. I will be speaking to the Israeli

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intelligence minister. An old faster on the old masters, we

:00:40.:00:49.

talk sex, death, religion and art. Carravagio and Rembrandt, the first

:00:50.:00:54.

four film directors and dealing in the extraordinary business of

:00:55.:00:58.

artificial light and what is cinemas it is no more and no less the

:00:59.:01:06.

manipulation of artificial light. And... So long to the spirit of '68,

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why is it that generation Y is moving to the right.

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Good evening. When the Home Secretary Theresa May made a

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statement to the House today, outlining fast-track legislation to

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ensure police and Security Services can access mobile and internet data,

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she did so secure in the knowledge that she would square the

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opposition. Her Labour shadow, Yvette Cooper, and party leader, Ed

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Miliband, wrote to their party today saying they had been guided by their

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firm conviction that it was essential to ensure the safety of

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civilians and privacy protected. Not all politicians are so sanguine.

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2006 and a plot that caused chaos at airports across the world. You have

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nothing but to expect but floods of martyr operations, volcanos of anger

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and revenge erupting amongst your capital. In the end three men were

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convicted of trying to blow up planes with liquid bomb, plan

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uncovered after tapping into phone and internet records. From the

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killer of Rhys Jones to the men who groomed girls in Rochdale. The

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Government claims all could have gone free without the power to

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monitor electronic communications. David Cameron says it is a power

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that could disappear after a recent European ruling and an emergency law

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is now needed. We face real and credible threats to our security

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from serious organised crime, from the activity of paedophile, from the

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collapse of Syria, the growth of ISIS in Iraq, and Al-Shabab in East

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Africa, I'm simply not prepared to be a Prime Minister who has to

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address the people after a terrorist incident and explain I could have

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done more to prevent it. The police and other Government agencies made

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more than 500,000 requests for data from communications firms last year.

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This is so called met at that data, the raw information that shows who

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is contacting who, for how long and if on a mobile, where from. There

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were another 2,760 requests for interceptions, that would be the

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content of the actual phone call, e-mail or message. It is an

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essential source, I think, both countering terrorism and dealing

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with serious crime. Particularly for law enforcement, this is an

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essential tool. A lot of it is very basic, it is who called whom, when

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and where, basic communications data. It is really important that

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capability is maintained. In the aftermath of the Madrid and London

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bombings, a European directive was put in place, forcing companies to

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store customer data for up to 24 months and hand it over to the

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authorities when needed, for years that wasn't questioned. But the leak

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is from this man, Edward Snowden, changing the way companies and

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Governments feel about state surveillance. In April this year the

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European court of justice ruled that those firms no longer have an

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obligation to store that data. Privacy campaigners say they have

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already sent more than 1500 letters out, demanding that all personal

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information is immediately deleted. Without this legislation we face the

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very prospect of losing access to this data overnight. That appears to

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have caused a panic in Whitehall and the sudden realisation that the

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police and Security Sers could be on the backfoot. Today's emergency law

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will override that European ruling, effectively restoring the status

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quo. The new law is unusual for a number of reasons, the speed it will

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be on the books for one, it should complete all its parliamentary

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stages by next week and the way in which it has the backing of all

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three main parties before being debated. Long-term critics are

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suspicious, accusing the Government of a stitch-up. If there was a real

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emergency it would be on April 8th when the European Court actually

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made the ruling. Then you would have expected the Government to come to

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the House and say we need to have an emergency law, if that was

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necessary. They should have seen that coming. Instead, to rush it in,

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one-and-a-half weeks before we end the session. It doesn't seem

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sensible. Nick Clegg was at David Cameron's side today to support the

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measures. On paper at least the new bill has greater safeguard as new

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oversight board and promise of a review before the next election. We

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have inserted a poisoned pill into the legislation, we are not putting

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anything permanently on the statute book. The bigger question is what

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happens after the date. The PM made clear today he would like to go

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further, giving greater powers to the police and Security Services.

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Even those who have worked on the frontline need to be convinced that

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is really necessary. I think the act is pretty good. It is technology

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neutral, it has enabled the authorities to collect information

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which has saved lives and prevented crime. I'm not personally convinced

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that there is a huge new area that is needed. Since Snowden, there has

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been pressure on the state to roll back its ability to snoop.

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been pressure on the state to roll marks a new stage. An attempt to

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draw a line and set out why these powers are so necessary. Even the

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politicians admit that getting the balance right between security and

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privacy may take some time yet. Joining me now are the Justice

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Minister and Liberal Democrat MP, Simon Hughes, and the director of

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the Campaign Group Liberty. Simon Hughes, first of all, a massive

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climb-down for the Liberal Democrats and another example of throwing your

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principles to the wind to remain in the coalition? Completely not,

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because, it doesn't increase the powers of the state at all. It

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doesn't agree to the snoopers' charter which we have resisted and

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has not been agreed by the coalition, and although the Tories

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would like it we haven't agreed to it. It doesn't pick up some of the

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ideas that were advocated by the last Labour Government. Why is so

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last minute, what David Davis was saying is there has to be some kind

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of debate in this, you had three months? You asked me a question

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saying is it a big climb-down, I'm just saying not only is it not

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because it doesn't change the present law in terms of its impact,

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it also, as you heard Nick Clegg say, adds a huge amount of extra

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things. We have got guarantee, we have secured a guarantee that the

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big law, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act will be

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reviewed before the general election. We have secured that this

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piece of temporary legislation has an end in 2016. Are these good

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things? No. You do accept the terror threat, the threat from criminal

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gangs is often on-line? I'm not going to have the nonsense I heard

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from my Prime Minister today about this emergency being caused by

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paedophiles and Jihadis. This court judgment that found the existing

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regime unlawful, a disproportionate blanket interference with

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everybody's privacy, criminal or not, this judgment came down on the

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8th of April this year. I have read the bill very carefully, it is a

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very short piece of enabling legislation that could have been

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introduced into parliament pretty much three months ago. What is the

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emergency? Why has it taken three months? Because they have been

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stitching up a little deal with the coalition and it seems with the

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opposition behind closed doors. They talk about committees of oversight,

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why can't parliament be the committee of oversight? It will be

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the committee of oversight. Parliament will have... Three days

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to do this. You have looked at the bill it is a short bill, you have

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conceded that. It took three months to draft. Let me deal with one point

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at a time, it doesn't extend the powers of the state at all. Reverse

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the judgment. It replaces via piece of legislation the secondary

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legislation that was in existence under the directive, it doesn't

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change or add to the law. Why so last minute? Because we were very

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careful that once the judgment of the European Court was given, we

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didn't want to get legislation wrong. Careful attention was given

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to make sure we had the minimal amount of legislation to replace T

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that is why this, and also for us, that many additional safeguards were

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put in place. You have utterly changed your position? Who has? That

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speech from the Deputy Prime Minister and Prime Minister today

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could have come from Tony Blair or Gordon Brown or any previous Prime

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Minister. It couldn't. You would have not supported this before the

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general election? It couldn't. Minister you would not have done.

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Because you heard what the safeguards are, they are a review of

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the substantive legislation, part of an interim review. 2016, why so

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late. There is a review of the main legislation, a new oversight board,

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a change in the Scrutiny Committee in parliament, a sunset clause which

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kills the bill, it doesn't enable it to be reviewed, there is a huge

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reduction... In two years time... . Let me, it is really important. You

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were against the whole communications data act? And it is

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gone, we have stopped it, the Tories want it and we have stopped it. The

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really important thing is this bill reduces the commitment we have got,

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reduces the number of authorities who ask for data. It doesn't. It is

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only such a short time since Lee Rigby and you said it was a kneejerk

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reaction, and now we have this last-minute legislation. It was not

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kneejerk reaction, if you it was you would have seen something brought to

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parliament the day after the judgment. In the same way you are

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attacking the idea that there is very little chance to have any

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oversight of this, in the same way there doesn't appear to be any

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public outrage, because the public believes, by and large, that the

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Government is doing what it can to keep people safe from terrorism,

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from paedophiles and from organised criminality, that is the duty of the

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Government? Absolutely. I agree that this kind of data can be really,

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really helpful and essential in all kinds of serious criminal

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investigations, I'm sure the court of justice agrees that too. But they

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found this blanket surveillance, this blanket reception and access to

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data, all those thousands and thousands of requests, they found

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that disproportionate, this bill creates no safeguards that ensure

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the regime is more targeted and we go back to being citizens and not

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all of us suspects. Which is why the very short legislation makes it

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clear that the Secretary of State will only have power to issue

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necessary and proportionate interception warrants. The whole

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proportion issue is very important. But if it is proportional and

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everything elsewhere are you making some -- why are you making such a

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fuss about the sunset clause. What will change two years down the line

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that will suddenly suggest you won't continue to support? There is a big

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debate about this issue, rightfully around the world. I will give you

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one example, I'm a member of parliament in the constituency where

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Damilola Taylor was killed. His killers were found because police

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were able to track the communication patterns on phones. I don't think

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there is any disagreement that we need to be able to track these data

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patterns. If that is the case, when the European Court says the legal

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infrastructure that you have is not valid what do we do? Do we stand

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back and do nothing? You haven't been targeting enough, you have been

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indiscriminate. Putting a holding operation in by law. A holding for

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two years? That is a long hold. There is plenty of time to look at

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what we want to do properly both in this parliament and after the

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election. You have an opposition to this, but what you don't know

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because you are not a technological expert is how quickly the technology

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is moving. We know by various things happening with airport surveillance

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that things are moving very quickly in technological terms. Presumably

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we have to do everything we can to cover the waterfront on this? The

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technology moves apace, but the law and politics has to keep up. Wait to

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keep up is not... That is what it thinks it is doing? This is giving a

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blank cheque to the executive to reverse court judgments. This is

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contempt. Let me finish. It doesn't change the law. It is contempt for

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the law because it doesn't reverse the court judgment or put in the

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safeguards that the court required to make it more targeted. It is

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contempt for parliament because they will pass it in three days next

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week. Contempt for parliament, three days? If this was a proposal to

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increase the powers of the state. You are reversing the court

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judgment. When a court judges... Are you reversing the court judgment? We

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are dealing with the fact that the regulations we have... Are you

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responding to the court judgment? Of course, you know that. The regular

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layses at the moment we have -- the regulations we have at the moment

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won't stand the test. Do we leave it to be legally tested and have no

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law? Of course not, we could be left with no legislation at all to make

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sure that the security authorities kept the data which we need to keep

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this country safe and parliament will be able to deal with it. Thank

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you very much indeed. We have long days of fighting ahead of us, these

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were the words of Israel's Defence Minister today as rocket attacks by

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both Israel and Gaza showed no signs of abating. Israel has struck around

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780 targets in which at least 78 Palestinians have been killed since

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Tuesday, while Palestinian militants in Gaza fired more than 4020 rockets

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towards Israel. The UN Security Council discussed the crisis and Ban

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Ki-Moon says that Gaza is on a knife-edge and called for bold,

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creative thinking to end the violence. Who has the power and

:15:15.:15:17.

influence to pull both sides back from another Israeli-Palestinian

:15:18.:15:22.

war. Here is our diplomatic editor, this film contains distressing

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images. M this film contains distressing

:15:26.:15:35.

there is mounting. More than 80 dead and 500 wounded since Israel stepped

:15:36.:15:42.

up attacks against Palestinian groups. They have been pounding

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homes, telling people to leave with a warning. Sometimes they call and

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warn you, sometimes they hit the house directly with no warning

:15:50.:15:54.

whatsoever. We have experienced this kind of things from Israeli

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warplanes in the past two days. But the easy targets were hit in the

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first few days, and, as in past onslaught, the scope for tragic

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errors is increasing. Several Palestinians killed watching a World

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Cup match in one place, extended families becoming casualties in

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another. But this exchange is different from past ones, for three

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reasons. Since the last exchange in 2012 the balance has altered. Hamas

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has acquired more missiles and some with longer range. Locally procuesed

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Kasam 4 rockets can reach 17kms. Even two years ago Hamas could hit

:16:44.:16:48.

Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, with Iranian missiles. Now it has another type,

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the M 3 O2, with a 160km range that takes in pretty much all of Israel's

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densely-populated coastal strip. Israel though has made the bigger

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stride, its Iron Dome Defence System is performing better, knocking down

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up to 90% of the in coming Palestinian missiles it is launched

:17:15.:17:17.

at. A nationwide early warning and shelter system means that so far no

:17:18.:17:21.

Israelis have been killed. And when it comes to striking back, sensors

:17:22.:17:27.

and reaction times have been built to the point where a response to

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rockets fired from Gaza can come in seconds. We are well instructed, we

:17:33.:17:37.

do lots of drills, and all people need to do when they hear the siren

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is to find the safest place around them, wait about ten minutes and

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move on with your life. So it is not a big deal. The second thing that

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has changed is Egypt. As a result of its volatile politics. When it was

:17:53.:17:58.

run by the Muslim Brotherhood, President Mohammed Morsi smuggling

:17:59.:18:03.

tunnels into Gaza proliferated and got big enough to take missiles

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through. But under the General, many tunnels have been shut and Gaza has

:18:09.:18:12.

been isolated. The Israelis have today released video of more of

:18:13.:18:16.

these underground routes being bombed. But while Egypt's change of

:18:17.:18:20.

Government might help Israel's security needs, it prevents Egypt

:18:21.:18:24.

from playing the same role they did two years ago in mediating an end to

:18:25.:18:33.

the fighting. Hamas still has ties with Qatar, where today its leader

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was trying to mobilise support. TRANSLATION: I say to the American

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Governments and the European countries, United Nationses and to

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the brother in our neighbouring states of the Arabs, why the

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Palestinian people supposed to be broken and surrender and die a slow

:18:50.:18:56.

death? Here is another different factor, Israel has now started an

:18:57.:19:01.

operation that could be hard to end. Hamas insists it will carry on

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hitting back, and since Egypt is loathe to negotiate with the

:19:06.:19:09.

Islamists, Israel has been left with the language of continued

:19:10.:19:15.

escalation. The best help that the terrorists could get, the Hamas

:19:16.:19:19.

movement could get is people that will explain to them that hitting

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Israel does not pavement anybody that wants to explain that to the

:19:23.:19:25.

Hamas movement is welcome to do that. Egypt, or anyone else in the

:19:26.:19:31.

world. But the way that we would explain is that if you hit Israel

:19:32.:19:40.

you will get hurt ten-times harder. The Palestinian Authority says than

:19:41.:19:43.

Israeli ground operation into Gaza is imminent. Israel won't confirm or

:19:44.:19:49.

deny that, but if the need not to be seen backing down sets the tanks

:19:50.:19:54.

rolling, it could be a tragedy in the making.

:19:55.:19:58.

Earlier this evening I spoke to Israel's minister of intelligence,

:19:59.:20:01.

strategic affairs and international relations. Yesterday he repeated his

:20:02.:20:06.

view that Israel needed to move into Gaza to eradicate Hamas. I began by

:20:07.:20:09.

asking him if he thought Israel would launch that attack imminently?

:20:10.:20:17.

Sooner other later we will have to go into Gaza to destroy the

:20:18.:20:22.

terrorist army built by ham marks and maybe to enable the Palestinian

:20:23.:20:24.

Authority to take control again of Gaza. If you went in as before, and

:20:25.:20:30.

let's go back to 2009, when you went in there, 1400 Palestinians died, 13

:20:31.:20:35.

Israelis died, that is a big disparity, but it does mean that

:20:36.:20:40.

Israelis, you have got to prepare for Israeli fatalities? Yeah, look,

:20:41.:20:45.

you describe the situation which is very complicated. But you know

:20:46.:20:50.

despite many differences there are some similarities to what is going

:20:51.:20:54.

on today in Iraq. The terrorist organisation, like Hamas or Al-Qaeda

:20:55.:20:59.

or ISIS, with fanatical Islamic ideology is taking over the

:21:00.:21:04.

territory, and again to attack other territories. But no Israelis have

:21:05.:21:09.

been killed already, and we know that a substantial number of

:21:10.:21:12.

Palestinians have been killed. Last night at a beach side cafe there was

:21:13.:21:16.

an air strike and nine Palestinians watching the World Cup were killed

:21:17.:21:20.

and 25 injured. How are they the enemy? It is very sad but you are

:21:21.:21:32.

right. Hamas is launching rockets at our citizens. These were civilian,

:21:33.:21:37.

you are accurate and can pinpoint your targets, how did you kill

:21:38.:21:45.

football supporters in a cafe? Most of the casualties are Hamas, most

:21:46.:21:54.

unfortunately when terrorists are shooting on our cities and towns we

:21:55.:21:57.

have to protect our people. One of the reasons that there are no

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casualties so far in Israel is because we managed to destroy

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several thousand rockets before they were launched at our cities. Ban

:22:08.:22:12.

Ki-Moon has called for bold, creative decisions, why not talk now

:22:13.:22:16.

to Fatah, why not even talk to Hamas? Hamas don't want to talk with

:22:17.:22:26.

us. Would you talk to them? Out of surprise one week ago, without any

:22:27.:22:32.

reason, suddenly launches of hundreds of rockets into Israel.

:22:33.:22:36.

Imagine that somebody would launch hundreds of rockets into Britain, in

:22:37.:22:40.

London or Liverpool, and people would have to go underground. People

:22:41.:22:44.

would have to go underground. Don't you have the opportunity to create a

:22:45.:22:49.

laing peace and as Binyamin Netanyahu says, a two-state solution

:22:50.:22:54.

now to avoid being drawn in and actually being vulnerable to the

:22:55.:22:58.

wider problems in the Middle East. The creative solution surely is

:22:59.:23:02.

finally to sit and you say Hamas won't talk to you, will you talk to

:23:03.:23:07.

Hamas? We are talking to the Palestinian Authority, Hamas took

:23:08.:23:10.

over from the Palestinian Authority, but you know what speaking about

:23:11.:23:16.

peace, let me remind you again, we left Gaza, we uprooted all the

:23:17.:23:20.

Jewish settlements in Gaza in order to promote peace. This happened nine

:23:21.:23:26.

years ago. The Palestinians promised publicly that once we would go out

:23:27.:23:31.

of Gaza there would be no hostility and rockets. 12,000 rockets were

:23:32.:23:35.

launched from Gaza on our citizens, this is not the way to promote

:23:36.:23:41.

peace, Gaza was supposed to be totally demilitarised, no rockets,

:23:42.:23:44.

no missiles, that's a commitment we got from the Palestinians, and now

:23:45.:23:52.

instead our people are under constant rocket fire every day,

:23:53.:23:57.

going underground into shelters, no democratic Government would tolerate

:23:58.:24:02.

such a situation and the Government of Israel is committed to defend

:24:03.:24:07.

itself, exactly like the Government of Britain or the Government of the

:24:08.:24:11.

United States or the Government of Italy and any other democratic

:24:12.:24:17.

state. Thank you very much. Is there no chance of a reprobement between

:24:18.:24:26.

the -- reproachment between the education workers and the Education

:24:27.:24:34.

Secretary. They marched today and with the sharp words of Michael Gove

:24:35.:24:38.

on Newsnight ringing in their ears. His blunt assessment of the teachers

:24:39.:24:42.

who don't back his reforms. What is striking, I find, is that while I

:24:43.:24:46.

can't put an absolute number on it, what I can tell you is that

:24:47.:24:53.

outstanding teachers and outstanding head teachers are, I find,

:24:54.:24:56.

overwhelmingly in favour. So it is the bad ones that don't get it? Yes.

:24:57.:25:03.

Joining me now is Shaun Worth from the think-tank Policy Exchange, and

:25:04.:25:08.

former adviser to David Cameron, and a teacher in a London comprehensive

:25:09.:25:13.

school and author. Shaun Worth the bad ones don't get it, only bad

:25:14.:25:18.

teachers out on strike today? It was one of the trade unions out on

:25:19.:25:21.

strike today. But if you look at what they were striking about, which

:25:22.:25:25.

was pay and performance. Let's talk about what Michael Gove was saying,

:25:26.:25:29.

the bad teachers don't get it? I don't know about bad or good

:25:30.:25:33.

teachers. The strike today was about pay, three-quarters of teachers

:25:34.:25:38.

support pay reform and performance related pavement you have some trade

:25:39.:25:41.

unions going out there and pretending there is massive

:25:42.:25:45.

controversy over pay reform. But most agree with what was going on.

:25:46.:25:49.

The teachers were out for a number of reasons, pay, pension, curriculum

:25:50.:25:54.

changes and free schools, it was a general upset at the direction of

:25:55.:25:58.

travel? What I would say about the politics of it, which is the root of

:25:59.:26:01.

it, if you look at Tony Blair, you know, going back to anyone that has

:26:02.:26:05.

reformed education, you know, you reform any of these big things run

:26:06.:26:09.

by trade unions, you have a stand-up fist fight with them, gloves off and

:26:10.:26:13.

that is tough. What he also said of course was the outstanding teachers

:26:14.:26:18.

and the outstanding head teachers back him? I totally disagree with

:26:19.:26:24.

this. Most teachers I encounter feel that Gove knows very little about

:26:25.:26:27.

education and that most of his policies are extremely misguided.

:26:28.:26:36.

The evidence is that things like going for academy schools and free

:26:37.:26:39.

school, performance-related pay doesn't work. This is from the

:26:40.:26:44.

Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, that

:26:45.:26:46.

are saying that performance-related pay makes no significant difference

:26:47.:26:50.

to pupils' outcomes. What we need to do is focus on what really works,

:26:51.:26:54.

which is teachers co-operating, working together and supporting

:26:55.:27:00.

teachers, giving them fair pay and giving them a chance to improve life

:27:01.:27:04.

chances for individuals. Performance-related pay doesn't

:27:05.:27:08.

undermine teams, it just means the OECD evidence is completely to the

:27:09.:27:12.

contrary. It says some of the best education systems around the world

:27:13.:27:17.

are attracting the brightest talent and teachers because of

:27:18.:27:21.

performance-related pay. It is not about cash, it is about rewarding

:27:22.:27:25.

people and valuing people. I would agree it is not about cash it is

:27:26.:27:29.

about fair pay, and it is about encouraging teachers to co-operate

:27:30.:27:32.

together. I know in my school we had a kind of performance-related basis

:27:33.:27:37.

them in my school, until recently it didn't work, because it was very

:27:38.:27:41.

high stakes and people were in their own little individual sigh locals.

:27:42.:27:48.

We have got a new -- silos. Is Michael Gove not listening to the

:27:49.:27:52.

evidence? He is not listening to the evidence. He would say that actually

:27:53.:27:56.

the opposition is not necessarily what is happening in the classroom,

:27:57.:28:00.

he says that it is an ideolgical opposition? It isn't, it is about

:28:01.:28:05.

supporting what actually works. What works is when teachers co-operate,

:28:06.:28:08.

they come together and are paid decently and you have an

:28:09.:28:12.

evidence-based approach, like they have in perhaps New Zealand, where

:28:13.:28:17.

they fund research that actually enables teachers to do a better job.

:28:18.:28:22.

He has a duty obviously as Education Secretary, to do the best he can for

:28:23.:28:28.

the majority of the pupils, and there is mixed outcomes. Does he not

:28:29.:28:33.

need to take teachers with them? I'm a mild critic of his approach on

:28:34.:28:37.

some sort of boring technical policy issues but also communications one.

:28:38.:28:42.

Give me some boring then? Free schools and where you target them.

:28:43.:28:46.

And let's target them in poorer communities because you will get

:28:47.:28:49.

more political capital built up around that. What about

:28:50.:28:52.

communication? Probably the same point. You know going into education

:28:53.:28:57.

or health reform or any big public sector reform, you will have a

:28:58.:29:01.

massive fight with the trade unionist and elitist establishment.

:29:02.:29:04.

The way to win the political argument is to bring, not them with

:29:05.:29:11.

you, probably but the public. He He has demonised us, I have had

:29:12.:29:15.

Conservative, Conservative teachers complaining about him, he has

:29:16.:29:19.

striped us of our pay for the last four years. He has cut our pay,

:29:20.:29:23.

effectively, he has cut our pensions, I have had Tory teachers

:29:24.:29:28.

who loathe what he's doing. None of his policies have worked. None of

:29:29.:29:32.

them have worked. The academy system doesn't work. We know it doesn't

:29:33.:29:36.

improve standards. You have had automatic pay progressions for 20

:29:37.:29:41.

years. What works is fair pay, that is what teachers want. That is fair

:29:42.:29:46.

pay. We are moving into a situation where people should be rewarded for

:29:47.:29:49.

excellence, it is not a benchmark. We want a system that is fair, if

:29:50.:29:55.

you have a system that backs up bullies and secretive siloism in

:29:56.:30:05.

schools it won't work. That is what performance-related pay does. It is

:30:06.:30:10.

unequal to women. You said there was a problem with communecation, it is

:30:11.:30:13.

not going to get -- communication, it is not going to get any better,

:30:14.:30:18.

will it? I think it will, the trick the Tory Party missed was not

:30:19.:30:24.

putting it front and centre of the campaign from the start. It is the

:30:25.:30:28.

most socially progressive policy we have, it helps poorest kids most. It

:30:29.:30:37.

hasn't. It is not hard left it has been a disaster.

:30:38.:30:44.

Sex and art have been the centre of Mr Greenaway's problems, for example

:30:45.:30:51.

the Cook the Thief His wife and Her mother. His latest work explores sex

:30:52.:30:58.

and eroticim and religious hypocrisy with works involving increst and

:30:59.:31:06.

paedophilia taboos. The stories are staged in order to get a patron to

:31:07.:31:10.

cough up for a revolutionary new printing press. I met him in the

:31:11.:31:16.

National Gallery where it is being screened in front of the paper by

:31:17.:31:21.

the paint -- of a painting by the painter himself. Really it is a film

:31:22.:31:32.

about film making. Although he's a film make bitter repute, he really

:31:33.:31:37.

existed, it is transpossession the activities of a film maker to a

:31:38.:31:46.

print maker and he is me. In your film you choose difficult taboos,

:31:47.:31:56.

are you trying to shock or entertain or inform I would like to think I

:31:57.:32:00.

was honest enough to do all those things. Just to shock is not enough,

:32:01.:32:04.

it produces sharp, quick and unnecessary returns. How did you

:32:05.:32:15.

construct this, it is the most beautiful seas of tableau? I'm

:32:16.:32:22.

trained as a painter. An Italian journalist asked me about starting

:32:23.:32:25.

my career as a painter and now you are a film maker. My quick and

:32:26.:32:31.

factitious replay was saying that I was always disappointed that

:32:32.:32:34.

paintings didn't have soundtracks! This film has a constant soundtrack

:32:35.:32:40.

and you have talked about cinema being too wordy? I really want to

:32:41.:32:45.

make cinema that is cinema and not nothing else. You know we don't have

:32:46.:32:50.

an image-based cinema we have a text-based cinema, every film you

:32:51.:32:53.

have seen started life with text. I think we should prioritise the

:32:54.:32:58.

image, the image, the image. I strive to make well wrought images.

:32:59.:33:03.

The biblical creation of man and woman for painters, has always

:33:04.:33:15.

presented problems. You start with the ultimate text, the Bible?

:33:16.:33:18.

presented problems. You start with best seller of all time. Isn't that

:33:19.:33:23.

a nice irony. And all those ironies are perpetuated. There are lots of

:33:24.:33:26.

words on screen, but they are performing like images, it is Texas

:33:27.:33:30.

image, in the beginning was the word. Did you want this film to be

:33:31.:33:35.

erotic or was that just a by-product. I know you have railed

:33:36.:33:40.

against the idea that it is pornography? Have I, I constantly

:33:41.:33:43.

accuse in the dialogue of the painter being a pornographer, look,

:33:44.:33:49.

is that pornography or eroticim. What is the difference between two

:33:50.:33:54.

words. It is extreme piece of voyeurism, a woman totally displayed

:33:55.:34:00.

for our voyeuristic gaze. I'm not sure if it is just a male gaze, I'm

:34:01.:34:06.

sure women are just as interested in pornography as men, but there is a

:34:07.:34:10.

way that it is blatantly obvious what the intent is meant to be. You

:34:11.:34:14.

started as a painter and you have been making films, and in way you

:34:15.:34:17.

are disparaging about certain elements of cinemas do you want to

:34:18.:34:21.

be a painter again? Always, always, the painter in the film is me, full

:34:22.:34:28.

of personal quirks and tropes and attitudes and self-reflections. What

:34:29.:34:33.

kind of painter would you be? I grew up in the 60s, early David Hockney

:34:34.:34:39.

always excited me. The list could go on and on and on. I think the first

:34:40.:34:46.

four important film directors are Caravagio, Valasquez, here they are

:34:47.:34:54.

again, Caravagio, and Rembrandt, and Valasquez, they are dealing in the

:34:55.:34:59.

extraordinary business of artificial light, and what is cinema, no more

:35:00.:35:04.

or no less than the manipulation of artificial light. A little while ago

:35:05.:35:08.

you said when you reach the age of 80 you would kill yourself? I live

:35:09.:35:13.

in Holland where euthanasia is not a dirty word. I cannot think of

:35:14.:35:17.

anybody who has done anything really valuable after 80. Can you, tolls

:35:18.:35:33.

toy d toll -- Tostoy only died at 82 but didn't do anything useful. I

:35:34.:35:38.

think the old should move asides and let the enterprising young step

:35:39.:35:46.

forward. I'm a good Darwinian, I have four children and passed on the

:35:47.:35:49.

genetic material and I can't think of anything more important than

:35:50.:35:54.

procreation. I'm engaged with film making enterprising and exciting,

:35:55.:35:57.

but only filling in the time between now and death. Relaxed or

:35:58.:36:14.

entrepeneurial or lazy, generation Y have come of age. Our reporter is

:36:15.:36:31.

certainly in the demographic. When you think of political radical its,

:36:32.:36:36.

you probably don't think of -- radical, you probably don't think of

:36:37.:36:42.

generation Y, today's 18-30s, yet this generation might represent the

:36:43.:36:44.

biggest this generation might represent the

:36:45.:36:47.

the Second World War. A generation that redefines politics in our

:36:48.:36:51.

society in its own image just as the great post-war generation did 70

:36:52.:36:56.

years ago. We are not talking about technology tweeting or texting, we

:36:57.:36:59.

are talking about a revolution in how we are thinking. They might not

:37:00.:37:04.

know it, but if generation Y has a spiritual home then it is here, at

:37:05.:37:09.

the economist tower, the home of the magazine which for centuries

:37:10.:37:13.

espoused a form of political, social and economic liberalism, which is

:37:14.:37:20.

precisely where my generation is at. They held a lot of views that

:37:21.:37:23.

conventionally might be called right-wing, they are more likely to

:37:24.:37:29.

support privatisation, and more instinctively comfortable with

:37:30.:37:31.

business, and the role of the private sector, and less comfortable

:37:32.:37:34.

with the role of the monolithic welfare state. On social issues they

:37:35.:37:38.

are more conventionally left-wing, they are liberal on matters of

:37:39.:37:44.

sexual and racial and other forms of cultural identity. They are a

:37:45.:37:46.

mixture of both. But on economic matters they tend to the right. They

:37:47.:37:51.

are more individualistic than previous generations were at the

:37:52.:37:53.

same points in their lives. This is more than just an age effect as

:37:54.:37:59.

sociologists call it, it is a generational effect. Data from Ipsos

:38:00.:38:03.

mori confirms this view, for example, when asked whether taxes

:38:04.:38:07.

should go up to support increases in unemployment benefit, generation Y

:38:08.:38:10.

were the least likely to think they should. Their parents of the same

:38:11.:38:13.

age on the other hand were overwhelmingly in favour. Rather

:38:14.:38:22.

than relying on pollsters and journalists in London, Newsnight

:38:23.:38:26.

decided to test this in an unscientific way, going to a college

:38:27.:38:30.

in Nottinghamshire to talk to some of the younger members of the

:38:31.:38:35.

generation Y. Should jobseeker's allowance be time-limited? All of

:38:36.:38:40.

you think yes. Why? I think it gives people Anne sentive that if they

:38:41.:38:45.

have got a - -- an incentive, if they have a time limit they have to

:38:46.:38:51.

work especially hard to get a job, and we need that incentive in

:38:52.:38:54.

society now, too many people are relying on the benefits system to

:38:55.:38:58.

give what they need, it is tough love. It would encourage people to

:38:59.:39:04.

not spend essentially too much time or their entire lives, perhaps not

:39:05.:39:10.

contributing to society, and I feel there is a ticking timebomb

:39:11.:39:14.

situation perhaps motivating people to go and find a job. Even though

:39:15.:39:23.

some have described them as the jilted generation, they don't seem

:39:24.:39:27.

keen on robbing the rich to feed the young poor? Should the Government

:39:28.:39:37.

have inheritance tax? It is just legalised grave robbing. If a person

:39:38.:39:41.

their entire life has worked and tried to create something and they

:39:42.:39:45.

want to pass it on to the next generation, I don't think the

:39:46.:39:48.

Government should have any say or power in what happens to it. This

:39:49.:39:51.

group didn't want the state support, they saw it as their responsibility

:39:52.:39:54.

to get a jobs, thought they should pay their own tuition fees and

:39:55.:39:59.

generally want to be self-reliant. The question is why has this shift

:40:00.:40:03.

taken place. One man who thinks he knows the answer is Ryan Shorthouse,

:40:04.:40:09.

who from his own front room in London runs his think-tank Bright

:40:10.:40:15.

Blue, that lobbies for liberalism in the Conservative Party. I think it

:40:16.:40:20.

is generation DIY, do it yourself. There has been a huge rise in the

:40:21.:40:24.

number of young people who are self-played, a 55% -- self-employed,

:40:25.:40:32.

a 55% rise. A lot of people have adopted Thatcher's views, a belief

:40:33.:40:36.

in a small state and privatisation. Also political discourse is

:40:37.:40:40.

dominated by ambition, opportunity, they are words that are often put

:40:41.:40:44.

out there and have been adopted by both the Thatcher Government and the

:40:45.:40:47.

new Labour Government. I think young people have really swallowed that.

:40:48.:40:57.

Are we missing the bleeding obvious, this is the first generation to grow

:40:58.:41:01.

up with the Internet as an ever-present force in their lives.

:41:02.:41:16.

Brixton building here used to be John Major's father used to speak

:41:17.:41:21.

but now it is a trendy pub. We all grew up in the age of the internet

:41:22.:41:26.

which has given us a thirst for individualism and actually made us

:41:27.:41:31.

quite competitive, documenting our lives competitively on social media.

:41:32.:41:35.

With a social media generation and it is all me, me, me, that is kind

:41:36.:41:40.

of good if you can harness it into a positive thing. The rise of this new

:41:41.:41:48.

selfie generation poses huge questions, one of them is this, can

:41:49.:41:57.

those born in an era of collectism, the welfare state, the BBC, maybe

:41:58.:42:03.

the idea of a nation itself, survive the transition to my generation

:42:04.:42:10.

where the individual is king. My guests join me to discuss this.

:42:11.:42:19.

First of all, when Sarah was your age she was out on the streets

:42:20.:42:23.

campaigning, that doesn't happen any more, have all the battles been won

:42:24.:42:27.

or you just don't care? For me I look at the process that I have

:42:28.:42:32.

seen, those on the Iraq War and on student finance, they have been lost

:42:33.:42:36.

and I think young people are now thinking well we won't bother with

:42:37.:42:39.

that, we will just really power on and try to do well for ourselves. Do

:42:40.:42:43.

you think that is a healthy thing, do you think it is selfish? I don't

:42:44.:42:46.

think it is selfish, I think actually we can take a real

:42:47.:42:50.

positivity from that. I think self-responsibility is so important,

:42:51.:42:53.

especially with finance. People really need to be taking personal

:42:54.:42:58.

responsibility for their own finance. Rather than leaving it to

:42:59.:43:02.

some kind of collective responsibility? As we heard on the

:43:03.:43:06.

video they don't want to be falling back on the state. Do you think you

:43:07.:43:11.

did the heavy lifting? We did the heavy lifting on social issues, and

:43:12.:43:15.

we were very effective in doing it. And partly the irony we were

:43:16.:43:19.

effective in doing it is not just because there was a lot of us but

:43:20.:43:24.

because we grew up in a welfare state that made us more equal and

:43:25.:43:28.

made us good at protesting because we had the safety net. Do you

:43:29.:43:32.

recognise what generation Y seems to be, the kind of tenets of it now,

:43:33.:43:36.

are they attuned to your daughters, not in a negative way, but you have

:43:37.:43:41.

daughters, does it feel more individualistic or feel that

:43:42.:43:43.

actually they are out for something that is a different thing, they are

:43:44.:43:48.

not out for the general good? It feels like a generation under siege,

:43:49.:43:52.

and not a generation under siege from social issues but economic

:43:53.:43:57.

issues. Those economic issues are so big that it is very hard to know how

:43:58.:44:01.

they can protest against them. What you are saying is they are so

:44:02.:44:05.

desperate trying to get on to the jobs and housing ladder they haven't

:44:06.:44:09.

got time to even talk about mainstream broad politics? It is not

:44:10.:44:13.

even they haven't got time it is the issues are so big and when they go

:44:14.:44:17.

to the Government the Government's attitude is what can we do about it

:44:18.:44:22.

is too big for us. I agree with you, most of the people featured on the

:44:23.:44:26.

video have no idea of the economic reality of their situation. What

:44:27.:44:30.

they have been very exposed to are very negative conotations of people

:44:31.:44:35.

who are on benefits, programmes like Benefits Street, projecting quite...

:44:36.:44:40.

Does that mean they don't want to take part in the wider discourse in

:44:41.:44:44.

society, that they are too busy, selfies, on-line, blaming the

:44:45.:44:49.

baby-boomers for drinking the well try? This is a view of the

:44:50.:44:52.

generation that older generations have created actually. What the

:44:53.:44:56.

younger generation hasn't seen is a world that they have lived in

:44:57.:45:00.

without the welfare state and the NHS. If they did see that and

:45:01.:45:03.

experience that their views might change. It is interesting because we

:45:04.:45:07.

are now in a situation where you know there is different priorities

:45:08.:45:11.

for a generation Y, and there is an ageing population, and as Lewis

:45:12.:45:15.

said, institutions like the NHS and so forth, they are not invested in

:45:16.:45:21.

them. So what's going to happen when we're nearly shuffling off the

:45:22.:45:24.

mortal coil, will anyone be looking after us? What I suspect is there is

:45:25.:45:29.

one leftover social battle that the baby-boomers didn't fight and we

:45:30.:45:32.

have yet to win, which is the right to die. I would actually suggest

:45:33.:45:37.

that rather like your Peter Greenaway film, very few of us

:45:38.:45:41.

actually want to be infirm and badly cared for with dementia. We would

:45:42.:45:47.

actually like to make the final choice up until then. What we will

:45:48.:45:51.

do is help generation Y by deciding when and where we go, and as long as

:45:52.:45:55.

we sort out the inheritance tax, maybe we will hand on some money to

:45:56.:45:59.

help them. Would you like that or actually would you like to think

:46:00.:46:03.

that you have become more caring as you get older? It is not about lack

:46:04.:46:08.

of care. Looking after the older generation or do they have to

:46:09.:46:12.

literally get lost? I know pensions will get massively more expensive

:46:13.:46:16.

for the taxpayer in the state pension and also the private

:46:17.:46:20.

pensions that young people are receiving are absolute chicken feed

:46:21.:46:23.

compared to what older generations have had. We are seeing older

:46:24.:46:28.

generations retiring now and they are on the breadline. What will

:46:29.:46:31.

happen to us, that is what we need to think about. We have to know what

:46:32.:46:35.

we are attacking here, when generation Y talks so rudely about

:46:36.:46:40.

the welfare state and benefits scroungers, we have to ask serious

:46:41.:46:44.

questions, the welfare state didn't cause the recession we are in. You

:46:45.:46:47.

are concerned about pensions and welfare and why aren't you out there

:46:48.:46:53.

with placards? I'm making my career about writing about this and trying

:46:54.:46:56.

to get older generations to see exactly what's going on. And you are

:46:57.:47:01.

absolutely right, we managed to make protests work because we learned it

:47:02.:47:04.

from the cradle to the grave. They have failed with two very important

:47:05.:47:08.

protests so you can blame both political parties for that, Labour

:47:09.:47:12.

with the Ir War and this one. We will be discussing this for time to

:47:13.:47:18.

come. All we have time for tonight, good night.

:47:19.:47:22.

come. All we have time for tonight, good night.

:47:23.:47:27.

We saw 26 degrees in the sunshine, but also for eastern areas intense

:47:28.:47:33.

rain which will continue overnight, finally petering out through Friday

:47:34.:47:37.

morning. We think still some nasty conditions around for the rush hour,

:47:38.:47:42.

sea fog near the east coast, the odd patch of fog will clear, and a good

:47:43.:47:44.

deal

:47:45.:47:45.

Including surveillance through the back door, who can prevent war in Gaza, Michael Gove vs the NUT, Peter Greenaway interview and Conservative youth.


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