15/08/2014 Newsnight


15/08/2014

The stories behind the headlines with Fi Glover. Including Cliff Richard, how the 2003 war in Iraq looks now, South American indigenous tribes and Laura Mvula.


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Transcript


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No arrest, no charges, not even a shred of proof, as far as we know.

:00:00.:00:00.

But this man is still all over the front pages.

:00:07.:00:09.

Should there be anonymity for those accused of sexual offences?

:00:10.:00:13.

Also tonight, with hindsight, how many different ways did we break

:00:14.:00:26.

They jump up on the statue. Trouncing it.

:00:27.:00:31.

Also tonight, with hindsight, how many different ways did we break

:00:32.:00:34.

brutalised, tortured. We want to give you the chance to rebuild your

:00:35.:00:49.

country, your lives, to give your families a chance of that better

:00:50.:00:51.

future. We'll ask, how does what was

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said then colour what we do now? And our latest Proms preview,

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Laura Mvula. Sir Cliff Richard said in a

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statement last night from Portugal, where he has a home, though not

:01:10.:01:23.

the one searched by police, in Berkshire, that he was happy to

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cooperate with the police, should they wish to speak to him to over

:01:27.:01:30.

an allegation of sexual assault He described the allegation

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as completely false. Sir Cliff also noted that somehow

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the press, the BBC in this case, had been alerted to

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the fact that his flat was going to be searched, thereby making

:01:43.:01:45.

the allegation very public indeed. No charges

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against Sir Cliff have yet been brought, and it's not the first time

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that someone being investigated for a crime has found themselves

:01:52.:01:54.

in the public eye before any We'll discuss whether there should

:01:55.:01:57.

be more protections for those alleged to have committed

:01:58.:02:02.

sex offences in a moment. His face splashed all over the

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newspapers, inside, pages of speculation on his private life,

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about a man who has not been found guilty or charged or been arrested

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or questioned. A news helicopter hovered overhead yesterday, as

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police arrived to search his flat in Berkshire. The singer is still in

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Portugal and was not told about the operation in advance, but BBC news

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reporters were clearly waiting for the detectives to turn up in

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unmarked police cars. The one thing that we know about Sir Cliff Richard

:02:46.:02:51.

is that he has denied any wrongdoing, and he says that it

:02:52.:02:55.

appears that the press knew what was happening before he did. He is right

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to be angry about that, that is part of the problem, that people already

:03:02.:03:07.

have got 0% of the facts, but 100% of the opinions as to what is going

:03:08.:03:12.

on. How did the media know about the search? Guidelines from the

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Association of Chief Police Officers say...

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There were two forces involved in this search, this morning Thames

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Valley Police released a statement. By late afternoon, the BBC's had of

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news-gathering tweeted. But then, a separate statement from

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South Yorkshire Police, when a media outlet...

:04:10.:04:20.

There should always be good relationships between the police and

:04:21.:04:27.

the media, they should not be cosy, but both sides have something to

:04:28.:04:31.

gain. In the end, the public have something to gain. One of the

:04:32.:04:37.

problems in recent years, there has been a knee jerk reaction by the

:04:38.:04:40.

police, saying, we must not talk to them, which is ridiculous. Let's

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welcome Cliff Richard. The investigation is focused on an

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alleged assault on a boy under 16 at an event featuring the American

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evangelist Billy Graham in the mid-80s. Sir Cliff Richard has

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called the allegation completely false, but the publicity has

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triggered calls for anonymity to be extended to the accused in cases

:05:05.:05:08.

like this. There will be people who say it is trial by media again, that

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the interesting factor of this situation, he has been named before

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he has even been arrested, which is really unusual, it is the first time

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in 25 years I have heard of this, I was quite shocked. Other

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high-profile celebrities all were cleared of sex offences or had

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charges dropped. All were named and had their private lives splashed

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over the press. In other cases, like the prosecution of Rolf Harris, the

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publicity led to other victims coming forward and a successful

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prosecution. The main reason for not introducing anonymity for defendants

:05:55.:05:59.

is that these cases, once there has been a charge, to encourage

:06:00.:06:03.

complainants to come forward, because they feel, it was not just

:06:04.:06:08.

me. That is relevant in cases where the defendant is in a position of

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authority or high profile, and we know there are recent cases of this

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nature. So, they come forward and give their accounts before trial,

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sometimes during trial, and that evidence is often used. Police said

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they had received information of the result of the media coverage of the

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last few days. But this is the start of what could be a long process will

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stop Sir Cliff Richard is innocent until proven guilty.

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To discuss anonymity in sexual-offence cases is the former

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MP Ann Widdecombe, and Jill Saward, campaigner and rape victim herself.

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It was the case up until a change in the Sexual Offences Act in 1988

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Jill, the men who raped you and were convicted of that crime, they

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The main rapist's name, I found it out the morning I went to court, it

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was the first time I was allowed to be told. I asked at low record

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levels, I was told I was not allowed to know. It was a horrendous

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experience, you have to come to terms with the fact that this is a

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real person, suddenly this person who you have known about, but know

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nothing about, has a name and becomes a person. When you are

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supposed to be concentrating on the evidence you are about to give,

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having to think about everything to do with them and about them and

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learning their name, it is not the right time, it is not appropriate at

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all. It is totally wrong to put that on victims in that situation. You

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would not want to see a return to that, but from what the report

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mentioned, the problems that a false allegation can cause some people are

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not to be ignored. Is there any change in the law that would be

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beneficial? I do not think that it is right to have publicised it

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before somebody has been questioned. I do not believe that is the right

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way ahead. But it is important, from the moment somebody is questioned,

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that we are made aware of the name of that person, so that it can

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encourage other people to come forward. So many people have been

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convicted because other people have come forward. Victims are very

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vulnerable, and feel very much quite often that it was their fault that

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it happened. It is the wrong feeling. But you are led to believe

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by ceremony different people and agencies and perceptions that it was

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your fault in somewhere or other. Therefore, you feel guilty about

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making that move and going forward and taking the step. To know that

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other people out there have been through something similar makes it

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so much easier for you to feel that you will be believed. And

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Widdecombe, this is the point, and it has been one that has been made

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by the police, victims find strength in numbers, so the naming and

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publicising of somebody who has an accusation against them has led to

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other people feeling strong enough to come forward. Yes, but the law

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has to protect the innocent as well as deal with the guilty. From what

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we have seen in recent months, this case takes it a whole stage further,

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perfectly innocent people being named, other people coming forward,

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the case being disproved, 19 charges in one celebrity case, just being

:10:07.:10:11.

completely disproved, but the people have not been able to work while

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their names have been across the press, they have been subject to

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social disapproval, they are terribly and chess and worried, and

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it is not a level playing field, because if and when the charges

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dismissed or the jury throws something out, we still do not know

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who brought the allegation. I would say this for the level playing

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field, it is perfectly true that if somebody really is guilty, others

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may come forward, but it is also the case that where a woman has

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previously made such allegations, but people should have the

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opportunity to know that. You have made the suggestion that in those

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cases, a judge could make those false allegations known. In the

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other cases you are referring to, to take the point is a victim of rape,

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why would you want to not enable women to feel stronger about the

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ability to come forward, those are the facts about some of these

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cases? You would not want to take that away from people? First of all,

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that is no reason to start naming people before charge. You might want

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to do it on charge, but not before that, and that has been very widely

:11:33.:11:38.

disregarded. Secondly, yes, where a judge believes that an allegation

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has been malicious or frivolous or with pound signs in the eyes, he

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should be able to name the accuser, but for those for whom the evidence

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is not even strong enough to proceed to court, they have had months of

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worry, there has to be a level playing field. Either anonymity for

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both or no anonymity for either. Do you think there is a place in the

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middle where these differing opinions could meet? It is unlikely.

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One of the things that she said is that people should be able to be

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named if it is proved they have made a false allegation. The law allows

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that to happen. For a lot of people, and allegation may not be

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seen as false. Somebody may be seen -- found not guilty, but it does not

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necessarily mean a victim has endured a sexual assault. This can

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affect somebody for the rest of their lives. We talk about how it

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affects the offenders for the rest of their lives, many of the people

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we have seen, it has not affected them that badly, because they have

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gone back to their jobs. That is true of the Thames as well, and

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often they spend -- suspend their lives. We do not take the impact on

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victims seriously at all in this country.

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It's almost impossible to grasp the enormity of the violent events

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History needs time in the blind spot of the rear-view mirror before

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In a moment we'll discuss where the lessons of history take us with

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regards to Iraq and what seems to be the reluctance of the US and Britain

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First, a reminder of how that past looked, in the present.

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We're going to run two broadcasts made by US President George W Bush

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and then British Prime Minister Tony Blair, both were delivered to the

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Iraqi people in April 2003, after troops had been sent in to Iraq.

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And it is the whole speech and nothing but the speech.

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At the moment, the regime of Saddam Hussein is being removed from power.

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American and coalition forces are operating inside Baghdad. We will

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not stop until Saddam Hussein's corrupt gang is gone. The government

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of Iraq, and the future of your country will soon belong to you. The

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goals of the coalition are clear and limited. We will end a brutal

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regime, whose aggression and weapons of mass destruction make it a unique

:14:35.:14:40.

threat to the world. Coalition forces will help maintain law and

:14:41.:14:44.

order so Iraqis can live in security. We will expect -- respect

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your traditions, whose principles of equality and compassion are

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essential to a rock's future. We will help you build a peaceful and

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representative government that protects the rights of all citizens.

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And then our military forces will leave. Iraq will go forward as a

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unified, sovereign nation. The United States and coalition partners

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respect the people of Iraq. We are taking measures to spare the lives

:15:21.:15:25.

of innocent citizens. We are beginning to deliver food, water and

:15:26.:15:30.

medicine to those in need. Our only enemy is Saddam Hussein and his

:15:31.:15:36.

brutal regime, and that regime is your enemy as well. In a new era,

:15:37.:15:41.

your country will no longer be held captive to the will of a cruel

:15:42.:15:45.

dictator. You will be free to build a better life, instead of building

:15:46.:15:54.

palaces Saddam Hussein and sons. Free for making prosperity without

:15:55.:15:57.

economic sanctions, free to speak your mind and join in the political

:15:58.:16:03.

affairs of Iraq. And all the people who make up your country will be

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free of the terrible persecution that so many having your order. The

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nightmare that Saddam Hussein has brought to your nation will soon be

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over. You are a good and gifted people. A great civilisation that

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contributes to humanity. You deserve better than tyranny and torture. You

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deserve to live as free people and I assure every citizen, your nation

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will soon be free. This is Tony Blair, Prime Minister of the United

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Kingdom. I am glad to be able to speak to you today to tell you

:16:45.:16:48.

Saddam Hussein's regime is collapsing and years of brutality,

:16:49.:16:53.

oppression and fear are coming to an end. That a new and better future

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beckons for the people of Iraq. We did not want this war, but in

:16:59.:17:04.

refusing to give up his weapons of mass destruction, Saddam gave us no

:17:05.:17:09.

choice but to act. Now the war has begun, it will be seen through to

:17:10.:17:15.

the end. We will continue to do what we can to avoid civilian casualties.

:17:16.:17:20.

Our enemy is Saddam and his regime, not the Iraqi people. Our forces are

:17:21.:17:27.

friends and liberators of the Iraqi people, not your conquerors. And

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they will not stay in Iraq a day longer than is necessary. I know,

:17:33.:17:39.

however, some of you feared a repeat of 1991, when you thought Saddam's

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war was being ended, but he stayed and you suffered. That will not

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happen this time. This regime will be gone and ended. And then we will

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work with you to build a peaceful, prosperous Iraq that you want and

:17:58.:18:01.

deserve. This Iraq will not be run by Britain, or by the United States,

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or by the United Nations. It will be run by you, the people of Iraq. Our

:18:08.:18:13.

aim is to help alleviate humanitarian suffering and to move

:18:14.:18:19.

as soon as possible to an interim authority that is run by Iraqis.

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That will pave the way for a truly representative Iraqi government,

:18:26.:18:29.

which respects human rights and the rule of law and spends Iraq's

:18:30.:18:34.

wealth, not on palaces and weapons of mass destruction, not on you and

:18:35.:18:40.

the services you need. Saddam Hussein and his regime plundered

:18:41.:18:46.

your nation's wealth. While many of you live in poverty, they lived

:18:47.:18:49.

lives of luxury. Saddam became one of the richest men in the world, his

:18:50.:18:54.

money stolen from you. The money from Iraqi oil will be yours, to be

:18:55.:19:00.

used to build prosperity for you and your families. I know from my

:19:01.:19:07.

meetings with Iraqi exiles who live in Britain, that you are an

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inventive, creative people. You should be free to travel, to have

:19:12.:19:16.

access to independent media, free to express your views and develop your

:19:17.:19:22.

culture. My experience of people the world over is that we all want to be

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able to live our lives in peace and in security. We want to give our

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families the chance of a decent life and future. Three years, that chance

:19:34.:19:40.

has been denied to you. Millions of your countrymen and women have been

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forced to leave -- fee years. Many have been tortured, brutalised by

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the regime. Now, we want to give you the chance to rebuild your country

:19:52.:19:54.

and your lives, to give your families a chance that better

:19:55.:20:00.

future. So it is in the spirit of friendship and goodwill that we now

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offer our help. Thank you. Tony Blair and George Bush -- George W

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Bush. Joining me is John Rentoul, a confirmed Blairite and Peter

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Hitchens, not a confirmed Blairite. What do those speeches make you

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think? They make me feel very sad because the hopes that people had at

:20:35.:20:40.

the time proved to be so awfully badly founded. You cannot say

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anything other than the present state of Iraq is a disaster. Would

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you still say Tony Blair and George Bush's policy was right, or that it

:20:57.:21:00.

was wrong and they caused what is happening now? It was not completely

:21:01.:21:06.

wrong. The aims of the policy were good and noble. It turned out

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extremely badly. I think the worst lesson to take from Iraq would be

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Peter's lesson, that intervention never works. Sometimes it works and

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in Iraq, it did not. But I ink we have a responsibility, partly

:21:26.:21:28.

because we helped to create the mess, to finish the job. Peter

:21:29.:21:35.

Hitchens, you have been pre-empted, but I would like to know your

:21:36.:21:39.

reaction to seeing those words again. One thing they make me feel

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is the self regard these ignorant people who launched themselves into

:21:49.:21:53.

a problem they did not understand and created a mess far worse than

:21:54.:21:57.

the one they claim to be clearing up. It seems to be to be a good

:21:58.:22:02.

warning to politicians that things are more complicated than they seem.

:22:03.:22:07.

Since they cannot run their own countries with competence, it

:22:08.:22:10.

strikes me as wise to steer clear of running other people's. John Rentoul

:22:11.:22:18.

says that I say you should never intervene. I would not go that far.

:22:19.:22:26.

There may be circumstances. But it would help if you knew what you were

:22:27.:22:31.

doing before you intervened. They rejected the advice of people who

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knew what they were doing. How can you know what you are doing? You

:22:36.:22:40.

cannot imagine in 2003 that somebody sat down, no matter how clever, that

:22:41.:22:48.

a force like IS would be marauding across the country, killing people.

:22:49.:22:55.

The history of Iraq since we created it has been one of violence and

:22:56.:23:02.

terrible mayhem, much of which was directed against the British when we

:23:03.:23:05.

first went there. If anybody knew that, they would have realised it

:23:06.:23:10.

was more of a problem. I am not sure they understood the divisions

:23:11.:23:21.

between Sunni and Shia. One thing that has to be rammed home is they

:23:22.:23:27.

said they would bring democracy to Iraq. A collaboration between the

:23:28.:23:31.

United States and the Islamic Republic of Iran has overthrown the

:23:32.:23:37.

democratically elected government of Iraq and replaced it with one more

:23:38.:23:40.

to its taste. That is not democratic. That is a gross

:23:41.:23:48.

simplification. It is a straightforward statement. Everyone

:23:49.:23:56.

would agree that Mr Maliki was part of the problem in dealing with Isis.

:23:57.:24:01.

Part of the pressure from within Iraq... If you set yourself up as

:24:02.:24:10.

bringing democracy to the country and then collaborate in overthrowing

:24:11.:24:13.

the democratically chosen leader, you cannot claim to be the apostle

:24:14.:24:21.

of democracy. Can I ask you both this question about the shadows of

:24:22.:24:25.

history. So many believe the reluctance on the part of the US and

:24:26.:24:30.

Britain to go in is based on the fact the last campaigns have been

:24:31.:24:37.

unsuccessful. The Gulf Wars. Are we deluding ourselves and allowing

:24:38.:24:43.

history to skew the present. The situation now is different. The

:24:44.:24:48.

humanitarian disaster, the potential genocide, it is a different

:24:49.:24:57.

situation. It would be foolish to ignore any possibility of saving

:24:58.:25:01.

people from genocide, starvation, all the other terrible things. You

:25:02.:25:10.

have to be careful not to extend that, which it could easily happen,

:25:11.:25:17.

into something bigger. The Libyan catastrophe began with claims we

:25:18.:25:22.

would prevent a massacre. Libya is now one big massacre. Nobody reports

:25:23.:25:32.

it because nobody goes there. We did prevent a massacre in Libya. There

:25:33.:25:39.

is no question. It has not turned out very well. The causes of that

:25:40.:25:48.

are deep and various. They are not necessarily to do with the

:25:49.:25:52.

intervention, just as the causes of ices are not necessarily to do with

:25:53.:25:57.

the intervention of 2003, but more with our failure to intervene with

:25:58.:26:05.

Syria. I would say it is largely a consequence of our destabilisation.

:26:06.:26:11.

It crosses one of the last frontiers of our

:26:12.:26:14.

imaginations - lost tribes, whole communities we know nothing about.

:26:15.:26:16.

When 20 more members of an ancient tribe came out

:26:17.:26:20.

of the jungle this week they gave us a unique insight into

:26:21.:26:22.

The first pictures of an Amazonian tribe believed to have fled their

:26:23.:26:41.

lands in Peru across the border to Brazil. They have told that they

:26:42.:26:47.

were attacked, possibly by loggers or drug traffickers. But they are

:26:48.:26:53.

not safe yet. Things easily cured in the outside world have wiped out

:26:54.:26:56.

communities in the past that have not been exposed to them. They were

:26:57.:27:17.

forced to make contact because of their land being destroyed. I think

:27:18.:27:20.

the authorities must provide money to protect their lives. We do not

:27:21.:27:26.

know the name of the latest tribe but it is believed there are over 70

:27:27.:27:32.

tribes not contacted in the Amazon and over 100 worldwide. The

:27:33.:27:37.

challenge now is to prepare tech from a world that is long they have

:27:38.:27:40.

wanted nothing to do with. One man who has had the privilege

:27:41.:27:45.

of meeting some of the world's most secretive tribes

:27:46.:27:48.

is Dr John Hemming, an explorer and historian, who was once head

:27:49.:27:50.

of the Royal Geographical Society. They have very powerful

:27:51.:28:03.

personalities these people. Can you describe what it is like to meet

:28:04.:28:06.

someone who may not have seen a person like yourself. It is

:28:07.:28:13.

traumatic. Can you imagine, you live all your life in the forest and,

:28:14.:28:19.

suddenly, you have this extraordinary experience. The four

:28:20.:28:24.

peoples I have seen at the time of contact have reacted differently.

:28:25.:28:29.

They are highly intelligent people. Two groups, just in a state of

:28:30.:28:37.

shock, another was quite aggressive, they had bows and arrows all the

:28:38.:28:41.

time and would not let us see their village. The fourth group treated us

:28:42.:28:51.

like gods. They did not know who we were all what we wanted. This

:28:52.:28:55.

contact was made by Brazilian professionals. They went quite well.

:28:56.:29:07.

The great problem is disease. And are spreading diseases they have no

:29:08.:29:13.

antibodies to. They are wonderfully fit. In perfect health. We come

:29:14.:29:21.

along and ruin it, which is very unfair. What sensation does it leave

:29:22.:29:27.

you with? Is it like the men and women who go to space who come back

:29:28.:29:31.

down and save the world is never quite the same again? It had eight

:29:32.:29:42.

the effect. -- a bit big effect. -- big effect. It turned into three

:29:43.:29:51.

large books. And the research goes on. You cannot generalise, every

:29:52.:30:02.

tribe is different, but I cannot think of a single people who did not

:30:03.:30:06.

want to preserve, or even revive their culture. Like our own

:30:07.:30:14.

minorities, such as the Welsh, the Scottish, they want to keep and

:30:15.:30:19.

preserve and treasure their heritage. I read that in your first

:30:20.:30:26.

trip to the Amazon you were given permission by the Brazilian

:30:27.:30:31.

government to name areas you discovered and gave them names of

:30:32.:30:36.

your Brazilian girlfriend will stop that was nothing to do with the

:30:37.:30:43.

Indians. It was a long time ago. We have to leave it there. Thanks for

:30:44.:30:50.

coming in this and evening. That is it from me, the last of the bending

:30:51.:30:56.

machine of standing presenters. We'd leave you with a treat as part of

:30:57.:31:01.

the Proms preview season. We end tonight with the incredible voice of

:31:02.:31:06.

Laura M Foula. This is a song from her new album. -- Laura Mvula.

:31:07.:31:23.

# Saw you wandering in my dream last night.

:31:24.:31:35.

# Singing wonder, wonder what you might do.

:31:36.:31:42.

# You can't simply hide a dream in the blue.

:31:43.:31:51.

# Don't try to fight, don't let me go.

:31:52.:31:54.

# You've gone too far from what I know.

:31:55.:31:58.

# I lost my heart in the dark with you.

:31:59.:32:05.

# Don't try to fight, don't let me go.

:32:06.:32:22.

# You've gone too far from what I know.

:32:23.:32:27.

# I lost my heart in the dark with you.

:32:28.:32:35.

Cliff Richard. How the 2003 war in Iraq looks now. South American indigenous tribes. Laura Mvula sings. With Fi Glover.


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