18/08/2014 Newsnight


18/08/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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Britain is not going to be getting involved in another war in iraq,

:00:00.:00:08.

we're not putting boots on the ground.

:00:09.:00:12.

But is the line between what we will and won't do shifting every day?

:00:13.:00:15.

Despite what David Cameron says, are we back on the road to Iraq?

:00:16.:00:22.

Tomorrow the Government is ramping up its riots-inspired programme to

:00:23.:00:25.

It wants to "turn around" another 400,000 of them, but is the

:00:26.:00:31.

Government expanding a programme without proof that it works?

:00:32.:00:33.

The National Guard is on the streets of Ferguson Missouri.

:00:34.:00:39.

Is this a divide that can ever be healed?

:00:40.:00:41.

We'll ask the American philosopher Cornell West.

:00:42.:00:46.

Hail the conquering heroes. I will ask Maggie Alphonsi, from the

:00:47.:00:53.

triumphant England's women's rugby team if it's time they turned pro

:00:54.:00:55.

like the men. Good evening. David Cameron has

:00:56.:01:07.

spoken in the most vehement terms about the crisis in Iraq saying that

:01:08.:01:11.

we are in the middle of a generational struggle against a

:01:12.:01:15.

poisonous and extremist ideology. If IS is not stopped they could push to

:01:16.:01:22.

the Mediterranean and to Turkey. That apocalyptic vision does not

:01:23.:01:26.

appear to be matched by a vision of what British military forces should

:01:27.:01:29.

do. The Defence Secretary indicated that the role of the British

:01:30.:01:33.

military had moved beyond a humanitarian task, but to what? Is

:01:34.:01:37.

the Prime Minister acting decisively or re-acting day by day? British

:01:38.:01:47.

lives and reputations were lost in Iraq. David Cameron won't be the one

:01:48.:01:52.

to argue for another military intervention, but our response is

:01:53.:01:56.

now much more than helping save lives in danger. The Prime

:01:57.:02:00.

Minister's adamant it doesn't mean troops. Britain is not going to get

:02:01.:02:05.

involved in another war in Iraq. We're not going to be putting boots

:02:06.:02:09.

on the ground. Wire not going to be sending in -- we're not going to be

:02:10.:02:13.

sending in the British Armiment we should -- army. We should use our

:02:14.:02:19.

diplomacy, the military prowess and expertise we have to help others, we

:02:20.:02:24.

should use these things as part of a strategy to put pressure on Islamic

:02:25.:02:28.

State and make sure this terrorist organisation is properly addressed.

:02:29.:02:34.

Note, he said: We will use our military prowess. Curdish fighters

:02:35.:02:40.

have been fighting with extremists at the Mosul dam. Control of vital

:02:41.:02:48.

power and water, they claim now back in their hands. In turn, our fighter

:02:49.:02:54.

jets have been flying to provide intelligence to the Americans.

:02:55.:03:01.

Neither the Ministry of Defence nor the rest of the Government is

:03:02.:03:04.

staying out of it. UK warplanes are already flying over parts of Iraq.

:03:05.:03:09.

We've offered to give weapons to curds in the north -- Kurds in the

:03:10.:03:15.

north. Special forces are thought to be in the country already. The

:03:16.:03:22.

Kurdish leadership has told visiting British MPs they want help with

:03:23.:03:27.

training their troops. When you hear this description of the frontline,

:03:28.:03:32.

it's clear why. One division would work for one party. Another for

:03:33.:03:35.

another political party. Division would be part of the intelligence

:03:36.:03:39.

department, another one would be part of the police force. One is

:03:40.:03:43.

Special Forces. Those divisions are not coordinating. That's been part

:03:44.:03:48.

of the problem. Part this afternoon coordination -- part of that

:03:49.:03:52.

coordination and training of the Army is certainly in what I would

:03:53.:03:57.

say, in the medium and longer term, absolutely required. Training

:03:58.:04:00.

moderates to take on the horror of Islamic State has not been discussed

:04:01.:04:07.

by Number Ten yet. Sources deny there's been a shift in their wider

:04:08.:04:11.

position. They say Britain will deal with these extremists and their

:04:12.:04:15.

terrible ambitions, not with direct combat, instead, what they describe

:04:16.:04:21.

as an approach that's primarily humanitarian with military

:04:22.:04:25.

assistance. Could that also be known as keeping their options open? In

:04:26.:04:33.

using humanitarian assistance to justify Britain's early involvement

:04:34.:04:37.

when it was clear in a war zone, any humanitarian action always entails

:04:38.:04:40.

the possibility of combat, first, and second, that the threat poled by

:04:41.:04:44.

ISIS, a threat that the Prime Minister himself had been

:04:45.:04:49.

undercorpsing for many months was more than a humanitarian issue --

:04:50.:04:59.

underscoring. The Prime Minister believes British Governments will

:05:00.:05:02.

have to deal with Islamic State for generations. Although his foreign

:05:03.:05:07.

policy ambitions have already been held back by history. This time last

:05:08.:05:14.

year, defence planners were considering different but direct

:05:15.:05:18.

action. The Prime Minister argued for intervention against President

:05:19.:05:21.

Assad. He lost the vote that would have backed it in the Mondays. At

:05:22.:05:27.

that -- in the Commons. At that moment, foreign policy, in part

:05:28.:05:30.

because of the shadow of what happened in Iraq ten years before. A

:05:31.:05:36.

shadow that perhaps looms larger now. Tonight David Cameron made

:05:37.:05:39.

phone calls to leaders around the Middle East, trying to confront

:05:40.:05:43.

together a more brutal enemy with regional ambition. While the

:05:44.:05:50.

problems presented by Islamic State are more and more acute, the

:05:51.:05:54.

political traps at home of taking action are just as wide.

:05:55.:05:59.

Here with me now are Fraser Nelson, Editor of the Spectator, and

:06:00.:06:02.

First of all, Laura alluded to the shadow of Iraq and the shadow of

:06:03.:06:15.

Syria, do you get the sense that David Cameron is at sea over exactly

:06:16.:06:18.

how to approach this? I think if there's a tension between his

:06:19.:06:23.

instincts, he's talking in Churchillian terms of a generational

:06:24.:06:28.

struggle to defeat ISIS, but not militarily, we're not sending in the

:06:29.:06:32.

Army. Anybody will think - which is it? We saw him saying we're not

:06:33.:06:37.

going to get involved in another Iraq war. This afternoon he sent a

:06:38.:06:42.

geoforce out there. And it's quite a terrifying thought, this idea that

:06:43.:06:46.

we're facing this for a exwren rags -- generation. He marches up to the

:06:47.:06:51.

top of the hill, but there isn't any clamour for debate. MPs don't

:06:52.:06:55.

actually know what they'll be debating. That's right. It's

:06:56.:06:58.

disappointing there isn't more clamour. British foreign policy

:06:59.:07:02.

achanging before our eyes here. If Parliament can be recalled to

:07:03.:07:06.

express condolences on the Queen mum's death, then you can discuss

:07:07.:07:09.

something as big as this. Should Parliament be recalled? Not quite

:07:10.:07:14.

yet. Not yet? We haven't actually taken any military action. As soon

:07:15.:07:17.

as we start thinking about military action, yes. But we're doing

:07:18.:07:21.

humanitarian action at the moment. But, at the weekend, the Defence

:07:22.:07:25.

Secretary said it wasn't just humanitarian He's talking action.

:07:26.:07:31.

About arming the Peshmerga. I don't see a great requirement for

:07:32.:07:34.

Parliament here. It may well be, but not quite yet. You see, I agree with

:07:35.:07:39.

Fraser up to a point. I don't agree that we know exactly what's

:07:40.:07:43.

happening. If you're going to have a strategy, you've got to have

:07:44.:07:50.

something to rat Is on. We -- strategis E.On. At what point do you

:07:51.:07:55.

make a decision on whether or not you will take military action along

:07:56.:07:59.

with the Americans? You don't know that point. You speak from

:08:00.:08:04.

experience. My experience is, look, I went sent to Bosnia. I didn't even

:08:05.:08:07.

have a mission for three months. There was no strategy or end game.

:08:08.:08:13.

Is there Is that a good way to carry on? We know that civilians are being

:08:14.:08:18.

attacked. Does it not make us look incredibly weak that we seem to be

:08:19.:08:23.

didge snerg It's a very odd thing to do, to rule out, for example, any

:08:24.:08:28.

serious military involvement and at the same time, say to I serve, we

:08:29.:08:33.

hate -- to IS, we hate you, we're out to get you. The Prime Minister

:08:34.:08:36.

may come to regret ruling these things out. Is he boxing himself

:08:37.:08:43.

Retorically yes in? . In fairness, the Prime Minister is saying what

:08:44.:08:47.

everyone feels at the moment. He doesn't want to put, as he says,

:08:48.:08:53.

boots on the ground. If circumstances change, and our

:08:54.:08:55.

country is threatened by these people... He seems to suggest that

:08:56.:09:01.

Britain is being threatened. Threatened on the borders of knave

:09:02.:09:04.

toe, being threatened here if IS fighters come here for terrorism.

:09:05.:09:08.

That's in prospect. It's not there yet. I think that in the end, the

:09:09.:09:13.

Prime Minister will have to make a decision in the national interest.

:09:14.:09:17.

The national interest, fundamentally is the defence of our country. Yes,

:09:18.:09:22.

but then what you might have is a situation like 7/7. Only when

:09:23.:09:27.

something like that happens do we galvanise ourselves into action for

:09:28.:09:31.

what is happening abroad. The public aren't prepared to do very much.

:09:32.:09:35.

There'll be a hell of a row if we suddenly started talking about

:09:36.:09:40.

military forces into northern Iraq. The public aren't up for it. Is that

:09:41.:09:44.

because Iraq was such a mistake? Yes. My constituents are contacting

:09:45.:09:49.

me and they're saying, we've got to do more than humanitarian aid. I

:09:50.:09:54.

say, what would you mean by that? You imply military action and then

:09:55.:09:58.

there's silence. If you talk about IS as the Prime Minister does, as

:09:59.:10:03.

being on the shores of the Mediterranean, spilling into Syria,

:10:04.:10:06.

you really think the Iraqi Army can take them on? The Iraqi Army, no.

:10:07.:10:12.

They're basically a rabble at the moment. The Kurdish forces are more

:10:13.:10:17.

efficient. It's funny that Kurds who we regarded as terrorists recently

:10:18.:10:22.

are now fighting with the American p air cover -- American air cover. War

:10:23.:10:27.

can quickly change allegiances. Right now, we've got to work out -

:10:28.:10:33.

do we support an independent Kurdistan. Yes, and break what

:10:34.:10:37.

Barack Obama keeps talking about as a united Iraq. Yes, but even tonight

:10:38.:10:44.

Barack Obama was thanking Iraqi and Kurdish forces, even getting into

:10:45.:10:48.

the swing of things. Are our enemies going to become our friends? Are we

:10:49.:10:52.

going to need President Assad, are we even going to need the Iranians?

:10:53.:10:58.

The answer is inevitably, they will. That's what happens in real life.

:10:59.:11:02.

Enemies become friends. Friends become enemies. I'm afraid that's

:11:03.:11:07.

politics. In the Middle East, it's most certainly the case. What are

:11:08.:11:12.

other of your military, former military compatriots telling you

:11:13.:11:15.

about this and discussing, what is their view? I haven't really talked

:11:16.:11:19.

to many people. I've been in France for two weeks. The fact is speaking

:11:20.:11:25.

from my own position, and my own experience, the one thing I disagree

:11:26.:11:30.

with is people saying we should have an end game, we should have a

:11:31.:11:34.

strategy now. We can't. Things are moving far too fast. The Prime

:11:35.:11:38.

Minister, quite rightly, is doing his best to deal with each day as it

:11:39.:11:44.

comes. When we have something more stable to think about a strategy,

:11:45.:11:48.

when the situation stabilises, then perhaps a strategy will Thank you

:11:49.:11:49.

come. Both very much. "Off the barometer" that's the

:11:50.:11:54.

description of the problems of many of the troubled families

:11:55.:11:56.

in the UK given by the boss of the Government programme dedicated

:11:57.:12:00.

to them - families who are chaotic, drug-abusing jobless,

:12:01.:12:02.

have mental health issues, The Prime Minister emphasised that

:12:03.:12:04.

families are the bedrock of society. and that dovetails with tomorrow's

:12:05.:12:16.

announcement that the Government will ramp up the

:12:17.:12:21.

Troubled Families Programme from 120,000 families to around half a

:12:22.:12:24.

million, pointing to a success story for 53,000 families who have been,

:12:25.:12:26.

the phrase is "turned around". In the aftermath of the 2011 riots,

:12:27.:12:40.

David Cameron came up with a ?400 million policy to deal with 120,000

:12:41.:12:46.

trouble-making families. Official Dom might call them families with

:12:47.:12:52.

multiple disadvantages. Some in the press might call them neighbours

:12:53.:12:54.

from hell. Whatever you call them, we've known for years that a

:12:55.:12:58.

relatively small number of families are the source of a large proportion

:12:59.:13:05.

of problems in our society. As the Prime Minister said in a speech

:13:06.:13:09.

today, that programme to tackle them, the so-called troubled

:13:10.:13:14.

families scheme, will take in a further 400,000 families during the

:13:15.:13:19.

next Parliament. The philosophy of the Troubled Families Programme is

:13:20.:13:24.

that a stitch in time saves nine. Central Government has asked local

:13:25.:13:33.

authorities about families with a high propensity for truancy and

:13:34.:13:37.

worklessness. By focussing resources there, we can solve a lot of

:13:38.:13:43.

problems all at once. We established the family recovery programme

:13:44.:13:47.

incorporating our Troubled Families Programme which brought a number of

:13:48.:13:50.

services together, such as mental health, the police, housing, health,

:13:51.:14:02.

domestic violence and a few more, substance issues, there are a range

:14:03.:14:07.

of specialists that can offer multiple services and multiple

:14:08.:14:15.

interventions for our families. There were 120,000 scheme families

:14:16.:14:18.

are certainly poor and have social problems, for example, 74% of them

:14:19.:14:23.

had no-one in work. 42% had been visited by the police in the

:14:24.:14:28.

previous six months. 29% were suspected of domestic violence.

:14:29.:14:32.

There are oddities about the programme. For example, why 120,000

:14:33.:14:38.

families? The 120,000 figure is essentially made up. It originally

:14:39.:14:45.

comes from a figure of the number of families in severe deprivation, not

:14:46.:14:48.

families that welcome back troubled, but deprived families. It's been

:14:49.:14:52.

wrenched out of context and used essentially because the Prime

:14:53.:15:01.

Minister wanted to make a speech. Now the minister-macro and other

:15:02.:15:04.

ministers have talked about how the Troubled Families Programme is a

:15:05.:15:09.

success and that is based on the number of people 's lives who have

:15:10.:15:13.

been turned around by it. It's worth looking at what they mean when they

:15:14.:15:19.

sit in and around. On the latest statistics, the scheme has turned

:15:20.:15:29.

around 53,000 families. But of all these, only 4500 have been turned

:15:30.:15:32.

around because a member of the family could sustain work, remaining

:15:33.:15:38.

are deemed turned around because of other criteria, for example their

:15:39.:15:42.

children may have got three suspensions in a year, truancy rate

:15:43.:15:47.

of less than 15% and the family may have reduced its anti-social

:15:48.:15:52.

behaviour and offending. So families and offending. So families of school

:15:53.:15:58.

a week gets suspended twice in a year and are deemed to be turned

:15:59.:16:05.

around. Clearly when families improve on these outcomes, it is

:16:06.:16:09.

genuine improvement, but it is absurd to suggest that because the

:16:10.:16:13.

child of the family is true in things slightly less, but it means

:16:14.:16:16.

the family has been turned around permanently. The measures don't

:16:17.:16:24.

address real problems such as domestic violence, and families

:16:25.:16:27.

deemed to have been turned around aren't on the back of the scheme

:16:28.:16:30.

even if things go wrong. So it's a bit early to claim that the scheme

:16:31.:16:38.

is a success. I'm joined by the director general of the Troubled

:16:39.:16:42.

Families Programme. It is a gargantuan task, did you think it

:16:43.:16:52.

would be as tough? Yes, I did. I started work in this area many years

:16:53.:16:55.

go and when the government had they wanted to do this, I knew it was

:16:56.:17:03.

going to be extremely ambitious. You have got 120 to nearly half a

:17:04.:17:08.

million, and on that figure of 53,000, only 4500 have found

:17:09.:17:15.

implement, continuous employment after six months. -- have found

:17:16.:17:25.

employment. These families are probably the furthest away from the

:17:26.:17:33.

job market than any. But 4500 out of 53,000 that are deemed to have been

:17:34.:17:38.

turned around. It is about 10%, in the scheme of things, when you

:17:39.:17:44.

consider how problematic these families are, layered upon domestic

:17:45.:17:48.

violence, crime, anti-social behaviour, extremely significant

:17:49.:17:51.

health problems, we're talking about families which have often never

:17:52.:17:55.

worked and their parents have never worked. But you have only got under

:17:56.:18:04.

5000 out of 53,000 into work. I am not saying that's... They are deemed

:18:05.:18:10.

to have been turned around, because it's not a question of the family

:18:11.:18:13.

having no suspensions, no offending among miners, and no social

:18:14.:18:23.

behaviour, it is 60% reduction, three exclusions maximum and an

:18:24.:18:31.

offending reduction. They are off the programme, isn't that scary? The

:18:32.:18:37.

first thing to say is, of those who have been turned around, nobody

:18:38.:18:40.

should underestimate the extraordinary distance those

:18:41.:18:43.

families have travel. You said yourself that it is gargantuan,

:18:44.:18:47.

extremely ambitious, they are large families, as we know from the study

:18:48.:18:54.

we have done, and all of the children, every member of that

:18:55.:18:58.

family, the reduction has to be by 60% and they had to reduce crime by

:18:59.:19:02.

30 and they have two get the kid into school. He said they had turned

:19:03.:19:08.

around, it would seem to me they are just turning around, rather than

:19:09.:19:14.

saying, tick the box, you are off the scheming to can't get back on

:19:15.:19:19.

it. People are putting words into mouse here. I am clear that just

:19:20.:19:24.

because a family has made these very significant moves in the right

:19:25.:19:29.

direction, doesn't mean to say all the problems are over and everything

:19:30.:19:33.

is perfect. Why can't face day in the scheme? -- they stay. They get

:19:34.:19:43.

specialist help? For as long as they needed. There are many families with

:19:44.:19:48.

the local authorities have claimed their results payment for and they

:19:49.:19:50.

continue to work with those families. The woman you interviewed

:19:51.:19:56.

earlier is in that situation. But if you have 53 families who are turning

:19:57.:20:01.

around, but completely turned around, and are still on the books,

:20:02.:20:07.

you are moving from a base rate of only managing it was half of 120,000

:20:08.:20:13.

families, to taking on half a million families. Is there not a

:20:14.:20:17.

danger you are completely tolerating this, wouldn't it be better to stick

:20:18.:20:21.

with the families, see them through finally rather than getting more

:20:22.:20:31.

money... I don't think it is. The thing that is interesting about this

:20:32.:20:35.

programme is that everybody knows these families have dominated our

:20:36.:20:40.

public services for years. We need to render that there are hundreds of

:20:41.:20:44.

different organisations circling around these families and not fixing

:20:45.:20:48.

them. The difference with this programme is that you have one

:20:49.:20:51.

worker that completely grips the family and grips all members of it.

:20:52.:20:57.

You can argue about semantics till the cows come home... Turned around

:20:58.:21:04.

means they are off the books. It doesn't mean they are off the books.

:21:05.:21:09.

There's a difference between when a local authority says we have moved

:21:10.:21:13.

them this far and it's time to make a results claim... Which is a

:21:14.:21:20.

financial claim. If you get all of the children back into school for

:21:21.:21:23.

three consecutive terms, almost 12 months, it is a huge movement in the

:21:24.:21:31.

right direction. You are saying 5000 families isn't a lot to get them

:21:32.:21:35.

into work, it's an amazing achievement to get these families

:21:36.:21:38.

into work when you know the background to them. The study I

:21:39.:21:41.

published a couple of weeks ago showed they had an average of nine

:21:42.:21:46.

huge problems. Including domestic violence, that doesn't come up in

:21:47.:21:52.

the scheme. Let me just put it to you that you are talking about being

:21:53.:21:56.

able to deliver this sort of service on cash-strapped councils with

:21:57.:22:04.

nearly half a million families. Aren't you building hugely false

:22:05.:22:06.

expectations of what you can achieve in five years? The most

:22:07.:22:11.

extraordinary story here is that public services, local authorities

:22:12.:22:14.

in particular, have gripped this programme, it is they who have said

:22:15.:22:21.

they want to help more families, get children younger, had earlier

:22:22.:22:24.

intervention, they are the power behind us to extend this programme.

:22:25.:22:31.

The matter what anybody says, those families have changed significantly

:22:32.:22:33.

and can only be a good thing in today. Thank you very much.

:22:34.:22:47.

This came after the governor of Missouri signed an order

:22:48.:22:49.

for the National Guard to quell the escalating protests.

:22:50.:22:57.

The situation remains press after night. These are the scenes that

:22:58.:23:04.

printed the calling in the US National Guard. The night-time

:23:05.:23:11.

curfew, intended to quell unrest, has now ended but the fatal police

:23:12.:23:14.

shooting of an unarmed black teenager more than a week ago, that

:23:15.:23:18.

a the violent protest last night. Police used tear gas and rubber

:23:19.:23:24.

bullets as the violence escalated. An initial autopsy found he had been

:23:25.:23:27.

shot but the police did not disclose how many times. Today a private

:23:28.:23:33.

autopsy commissioned by the family revealed he was shot at least six

:23:34.:23:38.

times, including twice in the head, and suggested he was killed while

:23:39.:23:43.

trying to surrender. The army said mobile part of your body, so it

:23:44.:23:47.

could have occurred when he was putting his hands up -- the arm is a

:23:48.:23:51.

mobile part. It could have happened if he put his arms across the

:23:52.:23:57.

defensive manner, we don't know. His family are calling for the rest of

:23:58.:24:01.

the officer involved. What is justice to you? Being fair.

:24:02.:24:13.

Arresting this man, and making him accountable for his actions. This

:24:14.:24:18.

evening President Obama highlighted the plight for some young black men

:24:19.:24:25.

in parts of the US. You have young men of colour in many communities

:24:26.:24:29.

who are more likely to end up in jail or in the criminal justice

:24:30.:24:34.

system than they are in a good job or in college. Part of my job, that

:24:35.:24:41.

I can to without any potential conflicts, is to get at those root

:24:42.:24:51.

causes. Michael Brown's death has sparked days of clashes between

:24:52.:24:55.

protesters and police. Authorities in the back row will be watching to

:24:56.:25:03.

see with the end of the curfew will curb or escalate the protests. First

:25:04.:25:12.

of all, do you think this is a pivotal moment for America? There is

:25:13.:25:19.

no doubt that once again, we have to deal with the vicious legacy of

:25:20.:25:24.

white supremacy, once again we have to raise the question. If our dear

:25:25.:25:28.

brother Michael Brown, were a precious white youths or a precious

:25:29.:25:35.

Jewish youth, would the president, Congress, legal system, respond in

:25:36.:25:39.

the same way as being a precious black brother in Ferguson? I think

:25:40.:25:45.

we know the answer. The American system is an abysmal failure when it

:25:46.:25:49.

comes to keeping track of the humanity of black poor youth. Is

:25:50.:25:57.

there a deep mistrust now among young black youth in America of what

:25:58.:26:07.

hand has been dealt them? It is generational. In my generation, we

:26:08.:26:10.

are the distrust of the police because of arbitrary police power,

:26:11.:26:15.

because of a deeply racist legal system, saying is true for this new

:26:16.:26:21.

generation. We have lost three waves of young, poor youth with a bogus

:26:22.:26:26.

war against drugs that generated unbelievable expansion of the new

:26:27.:26:33.

Jim Crow, callousness, indifference, has been the response of

:26:34.:26:41.

presidents, Congress, and think about the hypocrisy here. Recently

:26:42.:26:44.

the president said, were tortured some folks but they were real

:26:45.:26:48.

patriots, they were dealing with anguish, but here we have young

:26:49.:26:52.

people upset because they rightly see a murder taking place. And he

:26:53.:26:57.

has to be the manner of law and order. It's not law and order when

:26:58.:27:04.

it comes to torture. But it's law and order now and it comes to poor

:27:05.:27:08.

black people. The hypocrisy is overwhelming. You were just talking

:27:09.:27:14.

about President Obama, do you think his response has been sufficient to

:27:15.:27:19.

the task in terms of, what do you think of the assessment of the way

:27:20.:27:22.

he has behaved since the death of Michael Brown? I think his words

:27:23.:27:31.

reek of political calculation, rather than moral conviction. Keep

:27:32.:27:35.

in mind that he put out a statement for the death of Robin Williams, who

:27:36.:27:40.

was at comic genius, before he put out a statement on Michael Brown.

:27:41.:27:48.

The family asked for an autopsy, they hesitated, they had to get

:27:49.:27:54.

their own autopsy. Now we know of the six shots, of the head being...

:27:55.:28:02.

But the grief is overwhelming. But does that excuse... It is disgusting

:28:03.:28:11.

to have a black president unable to keep track of what is going on with

:28:12.:28:19.

the young black youth. The grief and anger is understandable but does

:28:20.:28:22.

that excuse looting? Why should they go together? No, no. I am not

:28:23.:28:30.

justifying looting. That's wrong, that's wrong. We have to be honest

:28:31.:28:35.

about calling out what is wrong, but the most important thing is, if in

:28:36.:28:40.

fact there was a semblance of a just process, a semblance of

:28:41.:28:45.

transparency, you wouldn't have the young brothers and sisters throw in

:28:46.:28:48.

the Molotov cocktails because they would recognise. Another is pleading

:28:49.:28:54.

to have her precious baby, who had been murdered, to have the person at

:28:55.:28:59.

least arrested so we can begin a fair trial, and she can't get that,

:29:00.:29:08.

in America, 2014! You are one black leader. What do you think the Black

:29:09.:29:11.

leadership in America should be doing now? Do you think the black

:29:12.:29:16.

leadership in America now it's wanting? I am not a black leader, I

:29:17.:29:23.

am a lover of black people, I am not a leader. I try and tell the truth

:29:24.:29:28.

about the suffering of poor black people in general, but what we need

:29:29.:29:32.

now is quality leadership on every level. We don't need the same

:29:33.:29:36.

everyday folk coming through with the market branding, the names and

:29:37.:29:43.

photo opportunities. We need local grassroots leaders who have

:29:44.:29:46.

integrity, and the sad thing is we have such low qwerty black

:29:47.:29:51.

leadership in America so you get a certain distance from what is

:29:52.:29:55.

actually happening on the ground, in terms of not just being there but

:29:56.:30:00.

following room. We have people who have been apologists for the

:30:01.:30:04.

President Obama administration who every event, come through, was their

:30:05.:30:10.

justice for Trayvon Martin? Absolutely not. We can go across the

:30:11.:30:18.

board. We need leadership, especially grassroots, with

:30:19.:30:24.

integrity. That brings us to the great legacy of Martin Luther King

:30:25.:30:25.

and the others. And no, this isn't another question

:30:26.:30:29.

about the Scottish referendum - 95% of Britons think that to

:30:30.:30:34.

be considered truly British you Yet there are almost

:30:35.:30:39.

a million people in these islands Newsnight has had first sight

:30:40.:30:44.

of their report which calls for a complete overhaul

:30:45.:30:53.

of the Government's language Jim Reed has been finding

:30:54.:30:56.

out what it's like to live My name is Beatrice. I'm happy to

:30:57.:31:08.

have this class and teach you this morning. We used to make small talk

:31:09.:31:15.

about the weather. Now, in this English class, the modern-day

:31:16.:31:19.

equivalent. Where do you usually go shopping? What about Morrisons? This

:31:20.:31:28.

couple are from west Africa. He came here from a Portuguese passport to

:31:29.:31:34.

stack shelves at Tesco. He's just joined this beginners' class. How

:31:35.:31:39.

old are your children? The boy is 11. The girl is four. Do they speak

:31:40.:31:45.

English? Yes. As their first language? Yes. They speak English

:31:46.:31:50.

better than Portuguese? Yeah. How difficult is that as a family? Yeah,

:31:51.:31:56.

sometimes, some word, they don't understand what they said in my

:31:57.:32:04.

language. I don't know how to explain them, how, erm...... How do

:32:05.:32:11.

you get the word. Them say, it is Through your difficult. Relationship

:32:12.:32:14.

with your daughter, if you can't speak the same language, is that a

:32:15.:32:17.

problem? Which shop is your favourite shop?

:32:18.:32:35.

Four million in the UK now live in households where English is not the

:32:36.:32:40.

main language. Some, like this woman from Egypt, have been living here

:32:41.:32:43.

for decades without speaking it well. You've been here 25 years, in

:32:44.:32:49.

this country, why just start to learn English now? Why not before

:32:50.:32:54.

now? Before because I working, I send money for my family in Egypt.

:32:55.:33:00.

Now everyone is married from my brother's children and my mum she

:33:01.:33:03.

passed away. I'm looking for myself. Do you wish you'd started earlier? I

:33:04.:33:09.

wish. How do we get to the situation where some of the people in your

:33:10.:33:13.

class have lived here for 20, 30 years even and cannot speak English?

:33:14.:33:19.

I know, it's absolutely amazing. I do some registration myself and I

:33:20.:33:23.

say, you've been here 25 years, why haven't you come to learn before?

:33:24.:33:26.

People have come straight into work. They've got a job in a cafe or a

:33:27.:33:32.

restaurant, as a chef, and they - They haven't needed language skills

:33:33.:33:37.

in that situation? Their priority was to get work so they could

:33:38.:33:44.

survive, basically. The most popular English language course is free to

:33:45.:33:50.

those on out of work benefits. The rest pay up to ?1,000 a year. A

:33:51.:33:56.

report out tomorrow criticises Labour for wasting money on the

:33:57.:33:59.

scheme and then the coalition for cutting funding significantly in

:34:00.:34:03.

England, leading to a big drop in student numbers. 850,000 people in

:34:04.:34:07.

this country can't speak English well or can't speak English at all.

:34:08.:34:11.

That's completely unacceptable. Just to compare that with the number of

:34:12.:34:16.

people who are on these courses, in the main programme, which isn't

:34:17.:34:21.

everybody, there are 150,000. You can see, there's a very big gap

:34:22.:34:27.

between needs and needs that are being met. Of those 850,000, they

:34:28.:34:32.

might not all want to learn English. That's absolutely right. They might

:34:33.:34:39.

not want to. Nonetheless there are about 80% of colleges that provide

:34:40.:34:45.

these courses report long waiting lists of up to a thousand potential

:34:46.:34:52.

students. These two are charging down this slide, in part because of

:34:53.:34:58.

Joanna lumly, the actress led the campaign to give Gurkhas the right

:34:59.:35:05.

to live in the UK. This former soldier and his wife left Nepal to

:35:06.:35:16.

start a new life here. Laksmi came here with basic English. After her

:35:17.:35:20.

course, three years later, she might not be fluent, but she's not far off

:35:21.:35:24.

it. It makes it very, very hard, when you don't understand their

:35:25.:35:30.

language. And when you are even like alone, among strangers, it is very,

:35:31.:35:38.

very hard and I felt like I'm confined, I'm in a jail. The report

:35:39.:35:46.

out tomorrow argues we need to make the process simpler. Immigrants

:35:47.:35:49.

could be offered loans to cover course fees or told to buy language

:35:50.:36:00.

lessons as a condition of entry. She's now planning to retrain and go

:36:01.:36:03.

back to work with her new English skills. After learning English for

:36:04.:36:08.

three years, I believe that I'm able to speak, I'm able to express my

:36:09.:36:13.

feeling and I have gained some skills as well. I have planned to do

:36:14.:36:20.

accounting course from September. I think there's a big jump from three

:36:21.:36:25.

years ago and now. Do you find you're getting better and better?

:36:26.:36:33.

I'm getting better. I'm getting better than before, when I was first

:36:34.:36:36.

in Have you England. Leapfrogged your husband, do you think your

:36:37.:36:40.

speaking is better than his? Are you competitive about it? Yes, of

:36:41.:36:44.

course, I'm better than him now. The Government says it has now

:36:45.:36:49.

tightened the rules for non-EU migrants and a basic language test

:36:50.:36:54.

is now part of the residency exam. It says Government funding must be

:36:55.:36:59.

targeted at those whose poor English is stopping them getting into

:37:00.:37:03.

employment. I was chef nearly 35 years... In the class in west

:37:04.:37:09.

London, Galia came here to work as a chef in the Ritz Hotel. She never

:37:10.:37:13.

left. It took her 20 years to start learning English, encouraged by

:37:14.:37:24.

surprising role models. He's crazy like me. You like this man? I love

:37:25.:37:32.

it. I love this man. The kind of integration then, the one half of

:37:33.:37:36.

the coalition would dearly love to see. Immigration is likely to drive

:37:37.:37:40.

up our population over the next 20 years. Whether those new entrants

:37:41.:37:45.

will be told to or even be able to speak English, that could make a big

:37:46.:37:52.

difference to British society. David lamby is in the studio and in

:37:53.:37:55.

Birmingham the Conservative special advisor on youth and crime Sean

:37:56.:38:00.

Bailey. Do you think it's acceptable that more than 850,000 people in

:38:01.:38:04.

this country can't speak useable English? I don't believe you can

:38:05.:38:12.

build cohesive communities if people can't communicate. But whose

:38:13.:38:15.

responsibility is it? One of the points in the report is if

:38:16.:38:19.

immigrants are going to come to this country immigrants learning English

:38:20.:38:22.

would be part of the package of making sure they pass the test to

:38:23.:38:28.

come into the country. That's key. Because who takes the responsibility

:38:29.:38:31.

for paying the bills? There has to be some respect for the communities

:38:32.:38:34.

that are already here, taxpayers, who will have to cover that cost.

:38:35.:38:38.

You believe it's the immigrants themselves who should shoulder the

:38:39.:38:41.

cost? For sure. One way to look at it is to say you're effectively

:38:42.:38:45.

asking British citizens to shoulder the cost of other people's

:38:46.:38:49.

immigration. We have a very generous system as it is with our NHS and the

:38:50.:38:53.

rest of that, this will add to that bill. That will be a hard sell for

:38:54.:38:57.

the public. There has to be some respect for the people who cover the

:38:58.:39:01.

bills. What he's saying as to society cohesion, if people can

:39:02.:39:05.

speak English together rather than be isolated within their own home or

:39:06.:39:11.

within their own family, do you see a difference between asylum seekers

:39:12.:39:16.

and economic migrants. There's two things, what Sean says is fatuous.

:39:17.:39:23.

Asylum seekers are coming from places like Somalia, we see the

:39:24.:39:26.

problems in Iraq. Many will arrive over coming years. These are

:39:27.:39:30.

vulnerable people. Often not very literate in their own languages. Of

:39:31.:39:33.

course the state has to find language courses for them so that

:39:34.:39:36.

they can get into the employment market. Many are women, like that

:39:37.:39:40.

woman you saw, 20 years she's not been able to speak She was English.

:39:41.:39:44.

Wonderful, delight ever, but she had a job from the moment she arrived

:39:45.:39:49.

here. Surely, you wouldn't think it was incumbent upon her to learn

:39:50.:39:52.

English? Yes and employers have to play a bigger role in that. You need

:39:53.:39:57.

courses in churches, in mosques, in community groups. 40% of this

:39:58.:40:01.

funding has been cut, gone, over the last five years. The criticism was

:40:02.:40:06.

that Labour frittered it and didn't use proper programmes. The budget

:40:07.:40:10.

trebled under Labour. We got more people into work under Labour. It

:40:11.:40:14.

was a good thing. We now have hundreds of thousands of people

:40:15.:40:18.

sitting at home, unable to enter the job market because they cannot speak

:40:19.:40:22.

English. Hold on, you've conflated two things. You are talking about

:40:23.:40:27.

immigration versus asylum seekers. Asylum seekers are very different.

:40:28.:40:30.

If the Government invites someone here for whatever reason that's

:40:31.:40:34.

going on in the world, we take some responsibility for them. If you're

:40:35.:40:37.

an economic migrant, you have to cover your own bill. You can't

:40:38.:40:40.

charge your immigration to my tax bill. That's ridiculous. A lot of

:40:41.:40:45.

the economic migrants who come do pay taxes. Yeah, but before they get

:40:46.:40:49.

into the country, they should be able to say that they will cover the

:40:50.:40:53.

cost. What do you mean, before they get into the country? You can't

:40:54.:40:57.

expect them to get here and not speak English. They won't One in

:40:58.:41:02.

survive. Three are coming within the European Union. They're coming from

:41:03.:41:04.

Poland. They're coming from France. They're coming from Spain. They have

:41:05.:41:09.

free movement. What requirement? You can't. Just like when you go to

:41:10.:41:14.

France... Hang on a minute, do we need to change all that? I'm sure

:41:15.:41:17.

Sean will say we should pull out of Europe. Don't put words in my mouth.

:41:18.:41:23.

I've never said no such thing. Should free movement include that

:41:24.:41:27.

you can show you can speak basic English. If we say that you can

:41:28.:41:32.

speak basic French and basic Spanish. Perhaps. It's not currently

:41:33.:41:35.

the system. Do you thi it's reasonable, we have a cash-strapped

:41:36.:41:43.

NHS. In 2012, in England, there was ?23 million paid for translations

:41:44.:41:48.

for people within the NHS, do you think that is acceptable? There is a

:41:49.:41:52.

question about the translation bill, particularly, I think in a library.

:41:53.:41:56.

But I've got to say that the cost for people not being able to

:41:57.:42:01.

navigate English is far greater in the NHS. You do need people. You

:42:02.:42:06.

pick up that bill, if you're socially excluded and you can't

:42:07.:42:11.

access medicine. Far greater cost to the planning. You can't just wait

:42:12.:42:16.

for people to arrive. Sean Bailey, finally, we know that the waiting

:42:17.:42:19.

list for these courses is huge. If you're going to resolve this in the

:42:20.:42:23.

short-term, what has to be Separate out done? The people who we as

:42:24.:42:26.

taxpayers are responsible for, because they're coming here for a

:42:27.:42:30.

particular reason, and who is an economic migrant. If you migrate to

:42:31.:42:34.

a country, your education, your ability to communicate, surely that

:42:35.:42:38.

bill rests with you. You have to have some respect for the people who

:42:39.:42:41.

pay the bills. There's lots of things in this country that

:42:42.:42:45.

communities need. To ask them to pay for other people's bills seems to be

:42:46.:42:47.

pushing it. Thank you both. The triumphant England Women's Rugby

:42:48.:42:52.

team arrived home from Paris today, after beating Canada in the

:42:53.:42:57.

World Cup final. Their decisive 21-9 win,

:42:58.:42:59.

in front of the sold-out stadium, and two million people watching

:43:00.:43:02.

on television, shows just how much of a revolution has taken place in

:43:03.:43:05.

the sport since women first played, But for the women, all amateurs,

:43:06.:43:08.

there's none of the glamour of sponsorship, fees,

:43:09.:43:13.

and big club deals It's back to the day jobs

:43:14.:43:15.

for the squad. Maggie Alphonsi, one of those

:43:16.:43:23.

players is here. Many congratulations. You must be on

:43:24.:43:28.

cloud nine. I'm over the moon. I can't believe it's actually

:43:29.:43:31.

happened. What a fantastic result to come away with a Gold Medal, after

:43:32.:43:33.

years of hard work. It's brilliant. Do you thi that the result of your

:43:34.:43:38.

win, of course, England has won before, but 20 years ago, do you

:43:39.:43:42.

think the result this afternoon win will be to ramp up both the interest

:43:43.:43:45.

in women's rugby, but also the desire to take it another stage?

:43:46.:43:49.

Definitely. I think now the fact that we've won the World Cup in our

:43:50.:43:55.

own country has made us think we can get more women involved in the

:43:56.:43:58.

sport. We had the World Cup in 2010 and there was a lot of attention. In

:43:59.:44:02.

2014 in France, the media coverage was fantastic. We got a lot more

:44:03.:44:06.

people who wanted to get involved in the women's game, but have never

:44:07.:44:09.

seen women's rugby before and are interested in it. For a long time,

:44:10.:44:13.

the television stations wouldn't take women's rugby. When you

:44:14.:44:22.

actually see the game, you see how extraordinarily talented,

:44:23.:44:23.

professional and everything else, where go back to your day jobs? It's

:44:24.:44:27.

one of the things where I started playing at 13 years old. There

:44:28.:44:31.

wasn't a lot for women's rugby. We played rugby. We didn't get a lot of

:44:32.:44:36.

attention on tfr or media articles. Over the last 15 years, I've seen

:44:37.:44:40.

rot depression change so much. It was slow, though. You have to see

:44:41.:44:51.

that it is frustrating. It is going to take time. Look at women's

:44:52.:44:54.

football now. What's pleasing about rugby is we're get thering. The men

:44:55.:44:59.

get paid fees for winning, fees for taking part, going back to the club,

:45:00.:45:03.

amazing sponsorship. You would think that people would be jumping to

:45:04.:45:07.

spoonor women's rugbiment Now we've won it. Who knows what will happen

:45:08.:45:11.

from here. I think it will only get better from now on. Do you think

:45:12.:45:17.

that every single club should have women's rugby within the club?

:45:18.:45:20.

Definitely. More girls are getting involved in the Do you sport. Think

:45:21.:45:24.

because of this win, the same way there's always a bounce from

:45:25.:45:28.

different sports, that actually, you talked about taking up rugby at 13,

:45:29.:45:32.

that actually there will be in schools, for young women, rugby.

:45:33.:45:36.

There is still a prejudice against it in some schools. It's growing

:45:37.:45:39.

already. I've been looking at social media and the amount of Twitter

:45:40.:45:42.

comments from positive people interested in getting involved in

:45:43.:45:46.

the women's game, young girls, you know, women wanting to be part of

:45:47.:45:51.

it, that's positive. It's Gowing -- it's only going to get better. Is it

:45:52.:45:56.

a big celebration for everybody? We have been celebrating. But the focus

:45:57.:45:59.

is the next World Cup in three Thank you years. Very much.

:46:00.:46:09.

James Alexander Wilson has died. He read the classified football results

:46:10.:46:12.

on BBC Radio for 40 years before stepping down last year. He was

:46:13.:46:16.

famous for his distinctive style, especially altering his tone of

:46:17.:46:20.

voice to indicate whether a result was home or away win or a draw. We

:46:21.:46:25.

leave you the explanation of the method in his own words. I always

:46:26.:46:29.

try to make the five minutes really interesting for the listener. Of

:46:30.:46:32.

course, the best way to do it is to get the inflection right, obviously,

:46:33.:46:39.

which I hope I do. And for instance, if Arsenal have lost, well, I'm

:46:40.:46:44.

sorry for them. If Manchester United have won, I'm happy for them. So it

:46:45.:46:50.

would go something like this. Arsenal one, Manchester United 2.

:46:51.:46:55.

And so on and so forth. Simple as that.

:46:56.:47:22.

A fresh start in the morning, plenty of showers over north-west England

:47:23.:47:30.

and parts of Wales. We are left with a scattering of showers for the

:47:31.:47:33.

afternoon, sunny spells as well but it won't feel warm. Generally it

:47:34.:47:42.

will stay dry in the central belt of Scotland. Temperatures in some cases

:47:43.:47:50.

may not even get to 13. After a wet start in Greater Manchester,

:47:51.:47:52.

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