09/12/2015 Newsnight


09/12/2015

Discussing the potential third runway at Heathrow, the Labour party 'in crisis', the Paris climate summit and clean eating. Plus, an interview with author Judith Kerr.


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Transcript


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Tonight, pressure on the PM to make a decision on Heathrow expansion

:00:00.:00:00.

But the government looks set to delay.

:00:00.:00:13.

Maybe it's political - but tonight we ask why we can't seem

:00:14.:00:17.

Tony Blair calls Jeremy Corbyn a tragedy for Labour.

:00:18.:00:21.

Will it play right into the leader's hands?

:00:22.:00:23.

We ask how Labour moderates are lining up after a rocky few

:00:24.:00:26.

I think if Jeremy's previous record in parliament shows us anything,

:00:27.:00:33.

it shows us that it's right and principled to take different

:00:34.:00:37.

views, on occasions, on issues you feel strongly about.

:00:38.:00:40.

And the tiger who came to tea - and has really never left.

:00:41.:00:51.

Judith Kerr talks about the lasting endurance of her characters and why

:00:52.:00:54.

she's top of the Christmas list aged 92.

:00:55.:00:57.

If I didn't draw, I would have probably taken to religion,

:00:58.:00:59.

Have you taken to religion at all? No.

:01:00.:01:12.

"No ifs, no buts, no third runway at Heathrow."

:01:13.:01:15.

The statement made by David Cameron back in 2009, which,

:01:16.:01:18.

even then, looked hostage to fortune.

:01:19.:01:22.

Tonight, six years on, on the eve of a key meeting

:01:23.:01:26.

by a Cabinet committee set to decide whether to delay the decision

:01:27.:01:30.

to expand, the whole question looks even more starkly political.

:01:31.:01:32.

Chambers of commerce from across the country have written

:01:33.:01:36.

to the PM demanding he give it the green light before the end

:01:37.:01:39.

of the year, warning that any delay raises grave concerns

:01:40.:01:41.

about the country's credibility when it comes

:01:42.:01:45.

But there are voices from within the PM's Cabinet

:01:46.:01:48.

who are fiercely against expansion on environmental grounds.

:01:49.:01:50.

And most crucially of all, a Tory candidate for Mayor,

:01:51.:01:53.

Zac Goldmsith, who's made clear he would resign rather than tolerate

:01:54.:01:55.

Does this country, and this government, have a problem when it

:01:56.:02:02.

comes to making the big strategic decisions?

:02:03.:02:04.

Here's our economics correspondent, Duncan Weldon.

:02:05.:02:07.

Due to land tomorrow, a final decision on whether to give

:02:08.:02:10.

the third runway at Heathrow the go-ahead.

:02:11.:02:12.

But like all things involving airports, it is sensible

:02:13.:02:14.

It now looks like the decision has been pushed back by another six

:02:15.:02:20.

months whilst the government gets new environmental

:02:21.:02:23.

Or alternatively, waits for the London mayoral election

:02:24.:02:27.

This is only the latest setback at Heathrow.

:02:28.:02:34.

This camp was set up near the airport by

:02:35.:02:41.

environmental protesters when a decision last looked due.

:02:42.:02:43.

Since then, it has literally had time to

:02:44.:02:45.

This camp is now approaching its sixth birthday.

:02:46.:02:48.

Six years protesting about a decision

:02:49.:02:49.

This saga, and that is the only word that works, has been running a lot

:02:50.:02:56.

It was back at the turn of the millennium that the Department

:02:57.:03:07.

for Transport predicted passenger numbers would double by 2020,

:03:08.:03:09.

In 2003, a white paper was published on a third runway.

:03:10.:03:13.

Three years later, the government confirmed its support

:03:14.:03:15.

2007 saw a public consultation but in 2008, the Conservatives came

:03:16.:03:19.

Finally, in 2009, a third runway was approved.

:03:20.:03:29.

But next year, the coalition agreement ruled

:03:30.:03:31.

Under pressure from business in 2012, an Airports

:03:32.:03:37.

Commission was appointed to review the options and reopen the issue.

:03:38.:03:39.

That report in July this year, backing a third runway.

:03:40.:03:42.

Tomorrow, we are supposed to finally see a final

:03:43.:03:44.

If there is another six months in it, business

:03:45.:03:50.

will be appalled because they will see another deferral,

:03:51.:03:52.

another reason why it can be delayed again.

:03:53.:03:57.

What was the point in having the Davies

:03:58.:03:59.

Our members care far more about a decision being made

:04:00.:04:04.

than they do about whether it is Heathrow or Gatwick.

:04:05.:04:07.

It is actually vital that something is done and done in time for this

:04:08.:04:14.

generation of businesses to be able to use it in going for this trillion

:04:15.:04:17.

pound export goal that this government,

:04:18.:04:22.

laughingly, laughably, suggests ought to be the real target

:04:23.:04:24.

opposes expansion but still wants a decision.

:04:25.:04:36.

If it is not a mayoral election, it is the general

:04:37.:04:47.

election, there is always something that pushes this back.

:04:48.:04:49.

But in the meantime, this is our lives.

:04:50.:04:51.

The government is playing with our lives.

:04:52.:04:52.

We are agreed that we want them to get on with it and make

:04:53.:04:56.

a decision and let us know where we stand and what we can do.

:04:57.:04:59.

Heathrow is not the only example of national

:05:00.:05:01.

Many of our sewers and bridges date back to Victorian

:05:02.:05:07.

More than 100 years later, we still rely on the legacy

:05:08.:05:11.

It took two years for the building of the great Western

:05:12.:05:17.

Isambard Kingdom Brunel built it in just six.

:05:18.:05:20.

We have been at or near the bottom of the league

:05:21.:05:25.

table in all kinds of infrastructure metrics for at least 40 years.

:05:26.:05:28.

In the end, it is about political short termism,

:05:29.:05:37.

not even with different parties.

:05:38.:05:41.

Different governments might change their mind,

:05:42.:05:43.

but within one government you might get a different decision.

:05:44.:05:45.

They are asking people to make investment decisions that will cost

:05:46.:05:50.

billions of pounds and need to be paid back over 50 years.

:05:51.:05:53.

They are just not going to bother when there

:05:54.:05:55.

Politicians have two problems, geography and time.

:05:56.:06:01.

The benefits of expanding Heathrow are spread out

:06:02.:06:02.

But the losers are concentrated in areas like this and that is

:06:03.:06:09.

The benefits accrue over decades but the costs

:06:10.:06:16.

can be concentrated into one 5-year political cycle.

:06:17.:06:17.

Heathrow, Gatwick, somewhere else or nowhere, the future of airport

:06:18.:06:20.

capacity is a key bit of what you might call a long-term

:06:21.:06:24.

economic plan but short-term politics seem to keep

:06:25.:06:26.

We did bid for the government voice in this but they are not joining us

:06:27.:06:41.

tonight. Joining me now, Martin Sorrell, WPP,

:06:42.:06:42.

head of the biggest advertising It's widely assumed there will be

:06:43.:06:50.

delayed decision for six months. What will you do if it's delayed?

:06:51.:06:58.

There's not much I guess we can do, especially in the. It's another

:06:59.:07:01.

example of dithering over a decision. We've had a studious and

:07:02.:07:07.

lengthy decision under Howard Davies, and they came up with the

:07:08.:07:13.

conclusion, and it sounds like the final decision will be postponed. On

:07:14.:07:19.

understandable grounds in some senses because of environmental

:07:20.:07:23.

concerns, but when you look at it in detail, the environmental concerns

:07:24.:07:27.

can be dealt with, as the Howard Davies commission set out. What's

:07:28.:07:34.

important in this context, infrastructure investment, which

:07:35.:07:36.

EuroPro League to this conversation emphasised. -- which your pro you'd.

:07:37.:07:45.

Dubai is understandable, because it's a new country with new

:07:46.:07:52.

infrastructure, but even Paris and Frankfurt and Amsterdam have made

:07:53.:07:55.

far more progress in terms of airport development. It's about

:07:56.:08:00.

trade, jobs, because an expansion at Heathrow will add estimates between

:08:01.:08:06.

60000 and 100,000 jobs around Heathrow. Even more in the context

:08:07.:08:10.

of the UK. It's about connectivity to other airports in the UK, and

:08:11.:08:15.

last but not least, the issue of infrastructure as well. I guess the

:08:16.:08:23.

issue of progress in other countries comes at the expense of democracy at

:08:24.:08:27.

some level. It's more important in this country to preserve that

:08:28.:08:30.

essence of listening to constituents. It is, but there is

:08:31.:08:37.

some degree of expediency here. There is the environmental issue

:08:38.:08:42.

people are talking about. We are going through the process in Paris

:08:43.:08:47.

that is extremely important. There is also the political element, we

:08:48.:08:52.

have mayoral election, both Conservative and Labour main

:08:53.:08:56.

candidates are against the idea of Heathrow expansion. I think that

:08:57.:09:01.

puts the government and Prime Minister in a difficult position.

:09:02.:09:04.

Postponing a decision for six months or so, enables them to deal with

:09:05.:09:11.

that problem, at least until after that election. Unless Zac Goldsmith

:09:12.:09:17.

resigns, as I think one of his associates suggested he might do,

:09:18.:09:21.

infant of that election, with a non-decision in place. Both business

:09:22.:09:32.

and the unions are united on this. Unite, the biggest union of Len

:09:33.:09:35.

McCluskey, has made it clear the unions are in favour of Heathrow

:09:36.:09:37.

expansion as well. That's interesting. Would it be a price

:09:38.:09:43.

worth paying in your eyes to have a politician, a Tory candidate for

:09:44.:09:50.

mayor, resigning for this to go ahead? I presume you will say yes.

:09:51.:09:58.

The importance of this decision transcends a candidate and a mayoral

:09:59.:10:02.

campaign. It's much more fundamental. Talking about long-term

:10:03.:10:08.

economic policy covering education, technology, jobs, skills, training,

:10:09.:10:16.

and infrastructure. This is a key infrastructure investment that is

:10:17.:10:19.

pivotal because there are connection routes that extend from this. There

:10:20.:10:23.

are road routes that extend from this. Jobs extend from this. This

:10:24.:10:29.

infrastructure investment, this lack of decision-making, is critical to

:10:30.:10:34.

the future of the country. You said dithering and delaying, do you see

:10:35.:10:37.

that as endemic to the way this government makes decisions on other

:10:38.:10:42.

matters, for example be EU negotiations we are in the middle of

:10:43.:10:45.

the moment. David Cameron is in Eastern Europe today and tomorrow,

:10:46.:10:50.

do you see that process on the same lines? That's unfair. Taking it, as

:10:51.:10:56.

you said earlier in the conversation, taking into account

:10:57.:10:59.

everybody's interest is very difficult. When you look at the

:11:00.:11:05.

delay, as your film introduction made clear, this decision has been

:11:06.:11:10.

talked about, extending airport capacity, whether it be Heathrow,

:11:11.:11:16.

Gatwick, another airport, Boris's airport, whatever, has been talked

:11:17.:11:20.

about for many years. Actually building this runway at significant

:11:21.:11:26.

cost, whether it was at Heathrow, Gatwick or a new airport, would take

:11:27.:11:30.

a significant period of time, and by that time we will have missed out on

:11:31.:11:35.

major opportunities. You are an advertising man and understand

:11:36.:11:39.

branding. You understand the importance of a word. If David

:11:40.:11:44.

Cameron said in 2009, no ifs, no buts, no third runway, would you not

:11:45.:11:48.

agree that the most important thing for him is to retain credibility and

:11:49.:11:54.

stand by his words? We all make judgments at various points in time

:11:55.:11:58.

that sometimes later we might regret. It may be that conditions

:11:59.:12:06.

and circumstances change. It may be you have to change your point of

:12:07.:12:08.

view because conditions have changed, economic, political and

:12:09.:12:14.

social conditions. It needs a change of mind. It was 2009, its 2015 now.

:12:15.:12:22.

It's linked in a way to the market issue and the EU issue. If we don't

:12:23.:12:27.

have expansion of our infrastructure, if we vote to come

:12:28.:12:33.

out of the EU, these sorts of decisions, rightly or wrongly, will

:12:34.:12:39.

place us in a difficult competitive position. London is a world capital,

:12:40.:12:45.

and by not expanding its airport capacity it limits its appeal as a

:12:46.:12:48.

world capital, and that has serious consequences, I think.

:12:49.:12:51.

Labour's most electorally successful leader, Tony Blair,

:12:52.:12:53.

has today damned the party under Jeremy Corbyn as a "fringe protest

:12:54.:12:56.

It's hard to think of anything that could cement his popularity more

:12:57.:13:02.

firmly amongst his supporters than harsh words from the man

:13:03.:13:05.

many of them regard as a war criminal.

:13:06.:13:08.

And it clinches the dilemma of the Labour party.

:13:09.:13:11.

Many of the moderate MPs cannot wait to write off their current leader.

:13:12.:13:15.

But each time he faces a decisive moment -

:13:16.:13:17.

the Syria vote, the Oldham by-election - he seems to rise,

:13:18.:13:19.

reenergized, from what appeared to be ashes.

:13:20.:13:21.

Allegra Stratton looks at the state of play.

:13:22.:13:35.

All political leaders need momentum, but this autumn Jeremy Corbyn's

:13:36.:13:39.

first 100 days hasn't flowed smoothly at all.

:13:40.:13:43.

The Labour leader has made some headway.

:13:44.:13:45.

The government U-turned on tax credits and policing, after all.

:13:46.:13:48.

But still, sometimes it seems he's been fighting

:13:49.:13:51.

Last week was a point of real danger for the Labour leader.

:13:52.:13:59.

It brought the prospect of not one, but two crises.

:14:00.:14:04.

Chaos over the Syria vote, and then the possibility of losing

:14:05.:14:06.

Jeremy Corbyn's opponents told me that over the past week,

:14:07.:14:11.

there were moments when he looked in real serious trouble.

:14:12.:14:15.

In the end, just under half of his Shadow Cabinet defied him

:14:16.:14:18.

on Syria, and his party held on to Oldham.

:14:19.:14:22.

He has emerged from this fortnight miserablis enhanced.

:14:23.:14:26.

So, what now for these mighty forces within the Labour Party pitched

:14:27.:14:29.

Two former soldiers, both tipped for great things,

:14:30.:14:35.

I think we have to move forward to May.

:14:36.:14:42.

I think we face elections taking place all around the country,

:14:43.:14:45.

and that provides a mechanism for us all to come together

:14:46.:14:49.

to support our Labour candidates around the country.

:14:50.:14:51.

I think, when I went back to my constituency,

:14:52.:14:53.

Angry at the scheming and behaviour of elements of the PLP.

:14:54.:14:58.

Surely it marked something of a tipping point.

:14:59.:15:12.

The Labour leader brought the majority of his MPs with him,

:15:13.:15:15.

Did the 66 pro-strikes Labour MPs set themselves apart

:15:16.:15:19.

I don't have that concern, because I think if Jeremy's previous

:15:20.:15:24.

record in parliament shows us anything, it shows that it is right

:15:25.:15:27.

and principled to take different views on occasions,

:15:28.:15:29.

about issues you feel strongly about.

:15:30.:15:40.

I'm not saying it's going to take in 20 or 30 years to rehabilitate.

:15:41.:15:44.

I think most members will understand that on this issue of war,

:15:45.:15:48.

an issue of conscience, I think they understand that those

:15:49.:15:50.

people thought long and hard about why they were voting.

:15:51.:15:53.

They were thinking about national security, thinking about,

:15:54.:15:55.

I think most members will understand.

:15:56.:15:59.

They might be disappointed with what they did, they might be

:16:00.:16:01.

I think they will understand that the vast majority of those

:16:02.:16:07.

members, the vast majority, did so for honourable reasons,

:16:08.:16:09.

or what they thought were honourable reasons.

:16:10.:16:11.

I think people should respect that decision.

:16:12.:16:14.

If they then go ahead and start scheming and plotting

:16:15.:16:22.

and doing all of that, then I don't know.

:16:23.:16:24.

But Corbyn himself said that those of you who voted the way you did,

:16:25.:16:28.

Well, I'm not, and my colleagues are not the kind of people

:16:29.:16:35.

who are minded to be swayed by those kinds of comments.

:16:36.:16:40.

So people who voted in favour of strikes in Syria,

:16:41.:16:42.

It isn't tittle tattle, it's about understanding

:16:43.:16:48.

I think the mood of the party is to get behind our leader and take

:16:49.:16:53.

That's what we are committed to doing.

:16:54.:16:58.

We have the Syria vote out of the way.

:16:59.:17:01.

It was a difficult moment for us as a party.

:17:02.:17:03.

We need to move on from it, come together, and get

:17:04.:17:06.

It doesn't sound like you think it rules anybody out.

:17:07.:17:11.

I think our members understand that people have principled views on both

:17:12.:17:14.

sides of the argument, and they will be respectful of that.

:17:15.:17:24.

The clashes are now less frequent and may slow to a stop,

:17:25.:17:27.

but for both sides, things could pick up again very quickly.

:17:28.:17:29.

Senior sources have confirmed to Newsnight that the party's rule

:17:30.:17:32.

book is, to use their word, "silent" on the issue

:17:33.:17:34.

of whether a sitting leader gets to stand again if challenged.

:17:35.:17:37.

Jeremy Corbyn's opponents think that if May's elections are bad,

:17:38.:17:40.

they would corral an overwhelming number of Labour MPs to call for him

:17:41.:17:44.

to go, and promote only one candidate, ensuring

:17:45.:17:46.

That's why at the September party conference, Corbyn's allies wanted

:17:47.:17:50.

We speak to two figures key behind-the-scenes.

:17:51.:17:56.

I think he's one of the most underestimated people

:17:57.:17:58.

Nobody thought he would get on the ballot.

:17:59.:18:01.

Nobody thought he would be a contender.

:18:02.:18:03.

Nobody thought he would be able to win.

:18:04.:18:05.

I think there is a small, vocal minority of people,

:18:06.:18:07.

and they have been shown to be a small minority of people,

:18:08.:18:10.

within the Parliamentary party and the party more generally,

:18:11.:18:12.

who haven't yet come to terms with Jeremy's victory,

:18:13.:18:15.

It should be very clear that the leader, the incumbent,

:18:16.:18:26.

should be able to stand in the election.

:18:27.:18:28.

But I don't think people will be looking to move against the leader

:18:29.:18:31.

The people around Jeremy, and I'm never sure if this

:18:32.:18:35.

is him himself, or people who share his politics,

:18:36.:18:37.

do seem to keep wanting to go looking for fights.

:18:38.:18:40.

Completely unnecessary when, actually, the kind of rather bruised

:18:41.:18:42.

and moderate wing of the party is not looking for a fight.

:18:43.:18:47.

But if they want to come and have a fight over the rule book,

:18:48.:18:50.

whether it's the leadership election rules, or the powers of conference,

:18:51.:18:53.

or whatever, then they will find a fight.

:18:54.:19:04.

It looks like peace might have broken out in the Labour Party

:19:05.:19:07.

For Jeremy Corbyn's opponents, the next moment of pressure

:19:08.:19:16.

will probably come the morning after May's local election results.

:19:17.:19:19.

For Jeremy Corbyn's team, the next moment of pressure

:19:20.:19:21.

will probably be around the time of the party conference

:19:22.:19:23.

when they try to change the rule book.

:19:24.:19:25.

In the meantime, crises will probably hove into view

:19:26.:19:27.

But at some point, the Labour Party has to stop fighting itself, and

:19:28.:19:32.

And now to Paris, where scores of countries are lining up to back

:19:33.:19:41.

A new draft text of the agreement being negotiated at the UN climate

:19:42.:19:45.

change talks has been released, which contains potential

:19:46.:19:49.

for ambitious targets on curbing temperatures and cutting emissions.

:19:50.:19:54.

Crucially though, are concerns the measures being laid out to get

:19:55.:19:57.

This is the copy of the document that should eventually go on to form

:19:58.:20:07.

It's not exactly easy reading but the

:20:08.:20:13.

last one was 48 pages long and this one has been slimmed down to 29.

:20:14.:20:17.

The last one had 900 brackets in it, each symbolising

:20:18.:20:19.

Three quarters of those brackets have been removed.

:20:20.:20:30.

It reflects some of the compromises that have been made over the last

:20:31.:20:33.

week and a half of negotiations but there are some real areas

:20:34.:20:36.

of disagreement here that are starting

:20:37.:20:37.

The first one, on the level of ambition.

:20:38.:20:40.

Is this document here ambitious enough?

:20:41.:20:42.

Should we be aiming to prevent global

:20:43.:20:45.

temperatures from rising above two Celsius, above preindustrial levels

:20:46.:20:47.

or should we aim, more ambitiously, for a 1.5 Celsius threshold

:20:48.:20:50.

$100 billion has been promised by 2020 to help

:20:51.:21:04.

developing countries to skip fossil fuels and move to cleaner

:21:05.:21:07.

But the mechanisms behind that have not been agreed

:21:08.:21:10.

Who pays the money has not been agreed, who gets the money.

:21:11.:21:17.

That is a big issue for some of the countries here.

:21:18.:21:20.

The third enormous issue, one that everyone disagrees

:21:21.:21:24.

on, is the discrepancy between developing countries

:21:25.:21:26.

Should the developed countries who have historically been

:21:27.:21:31.

emitting the bulk of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere,

:21:32.:21:33.

should they really bear the burden of

:21:34.:21:39.

responsibility, should they be doing the most to cut their emissions

:21:40.:21:43.

and give money to help other countries

:21:44.:21:48.

or should it be developing countries who need to do more?

:21:49.:21:51.

We can't just leave it to the developed countries,

:21:52.:21:57.

they now emit 65% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions.

:21:58.:21:59.

Should these countries be doing more and

:22:00.:22:01.

should some of the richer countries, Saudi Arabia and China,

:22:02.:22:04.

should they be contributing finance to the poorer developed countries?

:22:05.:22:07.

There's 48 hours to go and we're starting to

:22:08.:22:09.

There will be a lot of negotiating going on here into the night

:22:10.:22:13.

and they're hoping for a deal by Friday.

:22:14.:22:15.

Joining me now from the talks in Paris, which are continuing

:22:16.:22:26.

into the night, is Giza Gaspar Martins,

:22:27.:22:28.

Chair of the Least Developed Countries.

:22:29.:22:33.

Giza Gaspar Martins, thank you for joining us. The Indian spokesman

:22:34.:22:38.

said today that the wealthy world's obligations have not been met.

:22:39.:22:42.

Developing countries are not fulfilling their obligations. Do you

:22:43.:22:45.

feel that where you have reached tonight is more equal? Tonight, we

:22:46.:22:52.

have finally gotten a draft text that is more workable, that is a

:22:53.:23:01.

more workable attempt at reconciling, putting together the

:23:02.:23:04.

various policy options that we have been advocating. Obviously, there is

:23:05.:23:08.

still quite a bit of negotiation work to be done on this document and

:23:09.:23:13.

we are certainly prepared. We have been asked to stay here for the

:23:14.:23:16.

night and we are prepared to work through those issues. It is not

:23:17.:23:22.

necessarily a dichotomy between developed and developing countries.

:23:23.:23:27.

I think that what we have before us is a realisation on the part of our

:23:28.:23:30.

soul that there are tremendous sacrifices to be made, on all our

:23:31.:23:35.

parts, in order to engage in meaningful climate action. And it is

:23:36.:23:41.

about those sacrifices that we need to begin to have a conversation. And

:23:42.:23:45.

this document puts us on the right footing. You are brave to use the

:23:46.:23:49.

word sacrifice because many people at the talks do not. What does it

:23:50.:23:55.

entail? What kind of sacrifices, on the personal, individual or

:23:56.:23:59.

corporate and governmental level are involved? Firstly, we must agree.

:24:00.:24:08.

And now I think there is quite tremendous political Unison. There

:24:09.:24:12.

is a unanimous realisation that climate change is a threat, is a

:24:13.:24:20.

phenomenon that we must tackle. And we must tackle it in order to keep

:24:21.:24:26.

us all safe. Keeping us all safe means limiting global temperatures

:24:27.:24:33.

rises to 1.5 degrees. And that is where the conversation about

:24:34.:24:37.

sacrifices comes in. It certainly means that development needs to be

:24:38.:24:41.

greener, development needs to be cleaner in terms of emissions of

:24:42.:24:45.

greenhouse gases, and for it to be clean it means that we need to

:24:46.:24:49.

engage in a conversation about sharing the pools that will enable

:24:50.:24:52.

clean development. You have mentioned that figure, 1.5, do you

:24:53.:24:59.

think you will come away from this fortnight with that figure of 1.5

:25:00.:25:07.

degrees as a cap? Any agreement that seeks or aims to keep all of us safe

:25:08.:25:15.

needs to begin to look at 1.5 or below 1.5. This is not a number that

:25:16.:25:20.

we have pulled out of a hat. This is what science is informing us needs

:25:21.:25:27.

to be done. Even 1.5 degrees, the scientific consensus tells us that

:25:28.:25:32.

very many of us will not be safe. Therefore, anything above 1.5 is not

:25:33.:25:39.

fully tackling the challenges before us. Understood. Giza Gaspar-Martins,

:25:40.:25:40.

thank you very much. Now, do you describe yourself

:25:41.:25:43.

as virtuous when you eat If so, you may warm

:25:44.:25:45.

to a growing trend of those It describes a way of cooking

:25:46.:25:49.

or consuming food in as close to its natural state as possible,

:25:50.:25:53.

often avoiding gluten, dairy, sugar, fat -

:25:54.:25:55.

or, let's just say, any Proponents swear by it,

:25:56.:25:57.

and love the way they feel on it, but should we be wary of any fad

:25:58.:26:02.

that conflates puritanical consumption with the idea

:26:03.:26:05.

of being, well, "good"? Our man with a doggy

:26:06.:26:07.

bag is Stephen Smith. # My milkshake brings all the boys

:26:08.:26:14.

to the yard # And they're like,

:26:15.:26:18.

but this far into Newsnight, I'm ready for some full

:26:19.:26:29.

It's the kind of grub we associate with the fragrant Nigella.

:26:30.:26:41.

It seems she's worried that some adherents to so-called clean eating

:26:42.:26:44.

may be masking eating disorders or body issues.

:26:45.:26:50.

The folks here at Nama in West London ought to know.

:26:51.:27:00.

They have been made by dehydrating a batter of courgettes and walnuts,

:27:01.:27:18.

spreading it and dehydrating it at about 40 degrees for about 24

:27:19.:27:21.

hours until they go into solid pizza bases like this.

:27:22.:27:26.

what's wrong with the regular pizza base?

:27:27.:27:31.

There's nothing wrong with it, but because we are a raw vegan cafe,

:27:32.:27:35.

and because we try to provide food for people who have intolerances

:27:36.:27:37.

to gluten or wheat, and they can't consume them,

:27:38.:27:40.

How about some pasta made from cold raw courgette strips

:27:41.:27:47.

It's an inactive form of yeast that adds flavour to the dish.

:27:48.:28:03.

Marinating, taking up all the flavours.

:28:04.:28:20.

my body does kind of pay the price for it, and I do feel a little less

:28:21.:28:52.

Again, I don't think it's whether somebody should or shouldn't

:28:53.:28:56.

do something, it's just doing what you feel is right.

:28:57.:28:58.

If someone has wholesome raw food or vegan food,

:28:59.:29:00.

and it makes them feel great, then why not, let them

:29:01.:29:03.

My whole philosophy is about eating healthy 70% of the time and then

:29:04.:29:10.

doing whatever you want 30% of the time, because if you make it

:29:11.:29:13.

100%, it becomes completely unsustainable, and at one point that

:29:14.:29:15.

If you tell yourself you can't have it, the way our mind works,

:29:16.:29:23.

we are going to want it at some point, and then the guilt sets in.

:29:24.:29:29.

The menu at Nama makes it clear that recipes contain nuts.

:29:30.:29:32.

Nigella seems to be warning the same is true of the clean food movement.

:29:33.:29:41.

Joining me now, Alexandra Dudley, whose company makes organic,

:29:42.:29:46.

artisan seeds - and Celebrity MasterChef critic Jay Rayner.

:29:47.:29:50.

Nice to have you both here. When we were looking at their pizza base

:29:51.:29:57.

made from Walmart and organic dehydrated courgette, you said it

:29:58.:30:01.

looked yummy. Is that part of your diet? Actually, I said it slightly

:30:02.:30:10.

ironically. Raw pizza is not necessarily my meal of choice. But

:30:11.:30:14.

that is not to say I don't like all raw food. I think some of the more

:30:15.:30:19.

celebrated... Talk us through what you understand as clean eating. Take

:30:20.:30:24.

us through that. What does that mean for you? Personally, and I wasn't

:30:25.:30:30.

wearing this earlier, for me it means food that is not overly

:30:31.:30:35.

processed and is real food. So real food that you cook at home, and that

:30:36.:30:42.

includes things like butter, eggs, and I am a bit more of an advocate

:30:43.:30:48.

for a more all-rounder diet. Gluten, I don't eat gluten, I am a coeliac

:30:49.:30:53.

and I cannot eat it. I try not to eat dairy but when there is gelato,

:30:54.:30:58.

I eat dairy because I like it. I don't have yoghurt every day because

:30:59.:31:02.

it makes my skin bad and it makes me cranky and that is just what works

:31:03.:31:07.

for me. I did used to same clean eating a lot on Instagram, which was

:31:08.:31:11.

a strong social media channel for me. And I changed it, I made a

:31:12.:31:16.

conscious decision to change it a couple of months ago, mainly because

:31:17.:31:21.

I felt that what clean eating means now is a completely, it's not clean

:31:22.:31:27.

eating, it is a warped vision of what clean eating is.

:31:28.:31:32.

And it's this kind of idea of clean eating... I'm quite strong on

:31:33.:31:39.

language, and the one thing to understand why clean eating is

:31:40.:31:44.

cobblers, but at the way we talk about dirty, dirty dealing, dirty

:31:45.:31:49.

politics, dirty money, and we talk about junkies getting clean and

:31:50.:31:52.

cleaning up their act. There's a moral quality for a clean eating,

:31:53.:31:57.

they are virtuous will stop it plays into the pathology I is in the diet

:31:58.:32:00.

as a way to control the world around us. People talk about processed food

:32:01.:32:06.

as if it is evil. Throughout human history, from the moment we ground

:32:07.:32:12.

flour into wheat, we have had processed food. Really the issue is,

:32:13.:32:17.

is your diet healthy or not healthy? That's all it's about. The chef was

:32:18.:32:22.

talking about collapsing, coming off the wagon, and it has this religious

:32:23.:32:26.

overtone that you have been bad or let yourself down. Is that a worry

:32:27.:32:34.

for you? It is. It's a mega worry, it's extreme, I think. There have

:32:35.:32:38.

been some comments about the word clean eating on social media

:32:39.:32:44.

channels in particular, it being an excuse and way for people to mask

:32:45.:32:49.

eating disorders. I agree with that, hence the reason we have chosen to

:32:50.:32:56.

remove that. That's why we say it real, feel real. What does that

:32:57.:33:03.

mean? What's eating John Reel? You confessed to eating a worryingly

:33:04.:33:07.

sweaty sausage from a cart in Trafalgar Square. I eat a mixed

:33:08.:33:15.

diet. We have the dissolute almost 50-something man against the youth

:33:16.:33:20.

over here. I'm not the best proponent for this visually. Nigella

:33:21.:33:26.

is roughly my generation, and she should talk these things up. There

:33:27.:33:30.

is a joy in food. We sometimes eat terrible things. Have you ever eaten

:33:31.:33:37.

fried chicken from a high-street brand? Of course you have. Where is

:33:38.:33:42.

the shame? I've also eaten salad. It's amazing! Alexandra has as well.

:33:43.:33:50.

Have you done a KFC? Other brands are available. I'm more of a sweet

:33:51.:33:59.

girl. Do you wake up in the morning feel like you have sinned, like you

:34:00.:34:04.

have to purge? The whole idea of virtue. I have to say that, as a

:34:05.:34:12.

woman, and being in the industry I'm in, yeah, I do, often wake up and

:34:13.:34:17.

feel that way. Would you punish yourself with double the exercise or

:34:18.:34:21.

half the food? No, I tried to distance myself from those thoughts.

:34:22.:34:27.

I think we have enough of them. For my punishment I go down to the gym.

:34:28.:34:34.

So you wake up thinking, oh no? I have been a large man all my life. I

:34:35.:34:43.

have a metabolism engineered for the Russian Steppes. But I happen to

:34:44.:34:47.

live in London. I'm now a restaurant critic, but I do something by going

:34:48.:34:51.

to the gym several times a week and that's how I work it out. We have

:34:52.:34:56.

run out of time, but thank you very much.

:34:57.:34:57.

Mog the forgetful cat is, roughly speaking,

:34:58.:34:59.

But she's back at the top of the bestsellers this Christmas,

:35:00.:35:03.

resurrected in a brand new title - Mog's Christmas Calamity -

:35:04.:35:06.

to raise money for Save the Children - over ?1 million so far.

:35:07.:35:12.

Her creator, Judith Kerr, is more than twice her age

:35:13.:35:14.

but as lucid and inspirational as ever.

:35:15.:35:16.

The author of The Tiger who Came to Tea and When Hitler Stole Pink

:35:17.:35:19.

Rabbit - which describes her childhood fleeing Hitler's Germany

:35:20.:35:22.

and moving as a refugee to Paris - sat down to talk to me

:35:23.:35:25.

about what she describes as an extraordinarily lucky life -

:35:26.:35:27.

and about how that tiger first emerged.

:35:28.:35:29.

I began by asking her about her own literary journey.

:35:30.:35:32.

I was 45 when my first book was published.

:35:33.:35:37.

I had done other things before, but I always wanted to draw.

:35:38.:35:41.

The other things, like writing stuff for the BBC, were sort

:35:42.:35:47.

of accidental, because I was married to a very good scriptwriter,

:35:48.:35:50.

Because you have this other thing to think about.

:35:51.:36:02.

I think if I didn't draw I would probably have taken

:36:03.:36:05.

When people put their own interpretations

:36:06.:36:12.

on your stories, The Tiger Who Came To Tea, does it make you giggle?

:36:13.:36:16.

I read it every night for months to my son,

:36:17.:36:24.

and started imagining it was about sexual awakening

:36:25.:36:27.

I'm reliably informed I'm wrong, but that is what was going

:36:28.:36:35.

Will you tell us what was at the base of the tiger?

:36:36.:36:42.

Before my son was born, there was only my daughter and myself.

:36:43.:36:47.

She was two going on three, and Tom, my husband,

:36:48.:36:50.

was, I forget what film he was making, but he was out a lot

:36:51.:36:54.

Whereas normally he was at home writing.

:36:55.:37:00.

We had been to the zoo, so it seemed reasonable

:37:01.:37:08.

We both thought they were incredibly beautiful.

:37:09.:37:13.

You've got The Tiger Who Came To Tea, you've

:37:14.:37:26.

got a very dark book, When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit,

:37:27.:37:31.

Do you think that you need to protect children

:37:32.:37:35.

from the realities of the world, shelter them, or show them?

:37:36.:37:38.

I didn't think about either of those.

:37:39.:37:43.

I loved being in Switzerland, especially in Paris

:37:44.:37:54.

I was talking to Tom about writing this book.

:37:55.:38:02.

He said, it can't just be about your happy childhood.

:38:03.:38:05.

Hitler has got to be on the first page.

:38:06.:38:08.

My father had been warned by a stranger to get out of Germany

:38:09.:38:22.

immediately, because they were planning to take away his passport.

:38:23.:38:26.

He was afraid that the Nazis would hang onto us to get

:38:27.:38:37.

The moment when we were able to join him.

:38:38.:38:42.

His face was white, and his eyes were searching the crowd,

:38:43.:38:52.

And then Papa, who was always so dignified, who never did anything

:38:53.:39:08.

in a hurry, suddenly ran towards them.

:39:09.:39:12.

He put his arms around Mama and hugged

:39:13.:39:18.

her, then hugged Anna and Max, hugged them all and wouldn't

:39:19.:39:20.

And you grew up in Paris, where you spent

:39:21.:39:34.

Yes, my parents were very protective, and I never really

:39:35.:39:41.

understood how awful it was for them.

:39:42.:39:47.

My mother was incredibly unhappy and I didn't notice?

:39:48.:39:50.

I only found out about it long after her

:39:51.:39:55.

There was an archive about my father, and they keep

:39:56.:40:01.

finding letters that he has written, or people have written to him,

:40:02.:40:11.

she wanted to kill not only herself, but my brother

:40:12.:40:14.

and me, to protect us.

:40:15.:40:16.

I looked at the date and I thought, I'd just managed

:40:17.:40:18.

to learn to speak French at that time.

:40:19.:40:20.

It would have been very annoying to waste all that!

:40:21.:40:23.

Looking at all that now, and your parents'

:40:24.:40:27.

experience, at the age of 92, do you feel that you are in control

:40:28.:40:34.

hard for the right for assisted dying.

:40:35.:40:40.

I have, luckily, no reason to end my life.

:40:41.:40:45.

But, I think people are coming round to the idea that if life isn't

:40:46.:40:48.

worth living any more, if you realised you had Alzheimer's,

:40:49.:40:56.

I mean, it's nobody else's business what you do at that point.

:40:57.:41:12.

You are so uplifting to talk to, and razor sharp.

:41:13.:41:15.

Half the time I can't remember the one word I need.

:41:16.:41:25.

The ridiculously lovely Judith Kerr talking to me earlier at her home.

:41:26.:41:47.

That's all we have time for, good night.

:41:48.:41:50.

The programme discusses the potential third runway at Heathrow, the Labour party 'in crisis', the Paris climate summit and clean eating. Plus, an interview with author Judith Kerr. Presented by Emily Maitlis.


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