09/12/2015 Newsnight


09/12/2015

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Tonight, pressure on the PM to make a decision on Heathrow expansion

:00:00.:00:00.

But the government looks set to delay.

:00:00.:00:13.

Maybe it's political - but tonight we ask why we can't seem

:00:14.:00:17.

Tony Blair calls Jeremy Corbyn a tragedy for Labour.

:00:18.:00:21.

Will it play right into the leader's hands?

:00:22.:00:23.

We ask how Labour moderates are lining up after a rocky few

:00:24.:00:26.

I think if Jeremy's previous record in parliament shows us anything,

:00:27.:00:33.

it shows us that it's right and principled to take different

:00:34.:00:37.

views, on occasions, on issues you feel strongly about.

:00:38.:00:40.

And the tiger who came to tea - and has really never left.

:00:41.:00:51.

Judith Kerr talks about the lasting endurance of her characters and why

:00:52.:00:54.

she's top of the Christmas list aged 92.

:00:55.:00:57.

If I didn't draw, I would have probably taken to religion,

:00:58.:00:59.

Have you taken to religion at all? No.

:01:00.:01:12.

"No ifs, no buts, no third runway at Heathrow."

:01:13.:01:15.

The statement made by David Cameron back in 2009, which,

:01:16.:01:18.

even then, looked hostage to fortune.

:01:19.:01:22.

Tonight, six years on, on the eve of a key meeting

:01:23.:01:26.

by a Cabinet committee set to decide whether to delay the decision

:01:27.:01:30.

to expand, the whole question looks even more starkly political.

:01:31.:01:32.

Chambers of commerce from across the country have written

:01:33.:01:36.

to the PM demanding he give it the green light before the end

:01:37.:01:39.

of the year, warning that any delay raises grave concerns

:01:40.:01:41.

about the country's credibility when it comes

:01:42.:01:45.

But there are voices from within the PM's Cabinet

:01:46.:01:48.

who are fiercely against expansion on environmental grounds.

:01:49.:01:50.

And most crucially of all, a Tory candidate for Mayor,

:01:51.:01:53.

Zac Goldmsith, who's made clear he would resign rather than tolerate

:01:54.:01:55.

Does this country, and this government, have a problem when it

:01:56.:02:02.

comes to making the big strategic decisions?

:02:03.:02:04.

Here's our economics correspondent, Duncan Weldon.

:02:05.:02:07.

Due to land tomorrow, a final decision on whether to give

:02:08.:02:10.

the third runway at Heathrow the go-ahead.

:02:11.:02:12.

But like all things involving airports, it is sensible

:02:13.:02:14.

It now looks like the decision has been pushed back by another six

:02:15.:02:20.

months whilst the government gets new environmental

:02:21.:02:23.

Or alternatively, waits for the London mayoral election

:02:24.:02:27.

This is only the latest setback at Heathrow.

:02:28.:02:34.

This camp was set up near the airport by

:02:35.:02:41.

environmental protesters when a decision last looked due.

:02:42.:02:43.

Since then, it has literally had time to

:02:44.:02:45.

This camp is now approaching its sixth birthday.

:02:46.:02:48.

Six years protesting about a decision

:02:49.:02:49.

This saga, and that is the only word that works, has been running a lot

:02:50.:02:56.

It was back at the turn of the millennium that the Department

:02:57.:03:07.

for Transport predicted passenger numbers would double by 2020,

:03:08.:03:09.

In 2003, a white paper was published on a third runway.

:03:10.:03:13.

Three years later, the government confirmed its support

:03:14.:03:15.

2007 saw a public consultation but in 2008, the Conservatives came

:03:16.:03:19.

Finally, in 2009, a third runway was approved.

:03:20.:03:29.

But next year, the coalition agreement ruled

:03:30.:03:31.

Under pressure from business in 2012, an Airports

:03:32.:03:37.

Commission was appointed to review the options and reopen the issue.

:03:38.:03:39.

That report in July this year, backing a third runway.

:03:40.:03:42.

Tomorrow, we are supposed to finally see a final

:03:43.:03:44.

If there is another six months in it, business

:03:45.:03:50.

will be appalled because they will see another deferral,

:03:51.:03:52.

another reason why it can be delayed again.

:03:53.:03:57.

What was the point in having the Davies

:03:58.:03:59.

Our members care far more about a decision being made

:04:00.:04:04.

than they do about whether it is Heathrow or Gatwick.

:04:05.:04:07.

It is actually vital that something is done and done in time for this

:04:08.:04:14.

generation of businesses to be able to use it in going for this trillion

:04:15.:04:17.

pound export goal that this government,

:04:18.:04:22.

laughingly, laughably, suggests ought to be the real target

:04:23.:04:24.

opposes expansion but still wants a decision.

:04:25.:04:36.

If it is not a mayoral election, it is the general

:04:37.:04:47.

election, there is always something that pushes this back.

:04:48.:04:49.

But in the meantime, this is our lives.

:04:50.:04:51.

The government is playing with our lives.

:04:52.:04:52.

We are agreed that we want them to get on with it and make

:04:53.:04:56.

a decision and let us know where we stand and what we can do.

:04:57.:04:59.

Heathrow is not the only example of national

:05:00.:05:01.

Many of our sewers and bridges date back to Victorian

:05:02.:05:07.

More than 100 years later, we still rely on the legacy

:05:08.:05:11.

It took two years for the building of the great Western

:05:12.:05:17.

Isambard Kingdom Brunel built it in just six.

:05:18.:05:20.

We have been at or near the bottom of the league

:05:21.:05:25.

table in all kinds of infrastructure metrics for at least 40 years.

:05:26.:05:28.

In the end, it is about political short termism,

:05:29.:05:37.

not even with different parties.

:05:38.:05:41.

Different governments might change their mind,

:05:42.:05:43.

but within one government you might get a different decision.

:05:44.:05:45.

They are asking people to make investment decisions that will cost

:05:46.:05:50.

billions of pounds and need to be paid back over 50 years.

:05:51.:05:53.

They are just not going to bother when there

:05:54.:05:55.

Politicians have two problems, geography and time.

:05:56.:06:01.

The benefits of expanding Heathrow are spread out

:06:02.:06:02.

But the losers are concentrated in areas like this and that is

:06:03.:06:09.

The benefits accrue over decades but the costs

:06:10.:06:16.

can be concentrated into one 5-year political cycle.

:06:17.:06:17.

Heathrow, Gatwick, somewhere else or nowhere, the future of airport

:06:18.:06:20.

capacity is a key bit of what you might call a long-term

:06:21.:06:24.

economic plan but short-term politics seem to keep

:06:25.:06:26.

We did bid for the government voice in this but they are not joining us

:06:27.:06:41.

tonight. Joining me now, Martin Sorrell, WPP,

:06:42.:06:42.

head of the biggest advertising It's widely assumed there will be

:06:43.:06:50.

delayed decision for six months. What will you do if it's delayed?

:06:51.:06:58.

There's not much I guess we can do, especially in the. It's another

:06:59.:07:01.

example of dithering over a decision. We've had a studious and

:07:02.:07:07.

lengthy decision under Howard Davies, and they came up with the

:07:08.:07:13.

conclusion, and it sounds like the final decision will be postponed. On

:07:14.:07:19.

understandable grounds in some senses because of environmental

:07:20.:07:23.

concerns, but when you look at it in detail, the environmental concerns

:07:24.:07:27.

can be dealt with, as the Howard Davies commission set out. What's

:07:28.:07:34.

important in this context, infrastructure investment, which

:07:35.:07:36.

EuroPro League to this conversation emphasised. -- which your pro you'd.

:07:37.:07:45.

Dubai is understandable, because it's a new country with new

:07:46.:07:52.

infrastructure, but even Paris and Frankfurt and Amsterdam have made

:07:53.:07:55.

far more progress in terms of airport development. It's about

:07:56.:08:00.

trade, jobs, because an expansion at Heathrow will add estimates between

:08:01.:08:06.

60000 and 100,000 jobs around Heathrow. Even more in the context

:08:07.:08:10.

of the UK. It's about connectivity to other airports in the UK, and

:08:11.:08:15.

last but not least, the issue of infrastructure as well. I guess the

:08:16.:08:23.

issue of progress in other countries comes at the expense of democracy at

:08:24.:08:27.

some level. It's more important in this country to preserve that

:08:28.:08:30.

essence of listening to constituents. It is, but there is

:08:31.:08:37.

some degree of expediency here. There is the environmental issue

:08:38.:08:42.

people are talking about. We are going through the process in Paris

:08:43.:08:47.

that is extremely important. There is also the political element, we

:08:48.:08:52.

have mayoral election, both Conservative and Labour main

:08:53.:08:56.

candidates are against the idea of Heathrow expansion. I think that

:08:57.:09:01.

puts the government and Prime Minister in a difficult position.

:09:02.:09:04.

Postponing a decision for six months or so, enables them to deal with

:09:05.:09:11.

that problem, at least until after that election. Unless Zac Goldsmith

:09:12.:09:17.

resigns, as I think one of his associates suggested he might do,

:09:18.:09:21.

infant of that election, with a non-decision in place. Both business

:09:22.:09:32.

and the unions are united on this. Unite, the biggest union of Len

:09:33.:09:35.

McCluskey, has made it clear the unions are in favour of Heathrow

:09:36.:09:37.

expansion as well. That's interesting. Would it be a price

:09:38.:09:43.

worth paying in your eyes to have a politician, a Tory candidate for

:09:44.:09:50.

mayor, resigning for this to go ahead? I presume you will say yes.

:09:51.:09:58.

The importance of this decision transcends a candidate and a mayoral

:09:59.:10:02.

campaign. It's much more fundamental. Talking about long-term

:10:03.:10:08.

economic policy covering education, technology, jobs, skills, training,

:10:09.:10:16.

and infrastructure. This is a key infrastructure investment that is

:10:17.:10:19.

pivotal because there are connection routes that extend from this. There

:10:20.:10:23.

are road routes that extend from this. Jobs extend from this. This

:10:24.:10:29.

infrastructure investment, this lack of decision-making, is critical to

:10:30.:10:34.

the future of the country. You said dithering and delaying, do you see

:10:35.:10:37.

that as endemic to the way this government makes decisions on other

:10:38.:10:42.

matters, for example be EU negotiations we are in the middle of

:10:43.:10:45.

the moment. David Cameron is in Eastern Europe today and tomorrow,

:10:46.:10:50.

do you see that process on the same lines? That's unfair. Taking it, as

:10:51.:10:56.

you said earlier in the conversation, taking into account

:10:57.:10:59.

everybody's interest is very difficult. When you look at the

:11:00.:11:05.

delay, as your film introduction made clear, this decision has been

:11:06.:11:10.

talked about, extending airport capacity, whether it be Heathrow,

:11:11.:11:16.

Gatwick, another airport, Boris's airport, whatever, has been talked

:11:17.:11:20.

about for many years. Actually building this runway at significant

:11:21.:11:26.

cost, whether it was at Heathrow, Gatwick or a new airport, would take

:11:27.:11:30.

a significant period of time, and by that time we will have missed out on

:11:31.:11:35.

major opportunities. You are an advertising man and understand

:11:36.:11:39.

branding. You understand the importance of a word. If David

:11:40.:11:44.

Cameron said in 2009, no ifs, no buts, no third runway, would you not

:11:45.:11:48.

agree that the most important thing for him is to retain credibility and

:11:49.:11:54.

stand by his words? We all make judgments at various points in time

:11:55.:11:58.

that sometimes later we might regret. It may be that conditions

:11:59.:12:06.

and circumstances change. It may be you have to change your point of

:12:07.:12:08.

view because conditions have changed, economic, political and

:12:09.:12:14.

social conditions. It needs a change of mind. It was 2009, its 2015 now.

:12:15.:12:22.

It's linked in a way to the market issue and the EU issue. If we don't

:12:23.:12:27.

have expansion of our infrastructure, if we vote to come

:12:28.:12:33.

out of the EU, these sorts of decisions, rightly or wrongly, will

:12:34.:12:39.

place us in a difficult competitive position. London is a world capital,

:12:40.:12:45.

and by not expanding its airport capacity it limits its appeal as a

:12:46.:12:48.

world capital, and that has serious consequences, I think.

:12:49.:12:51.

Labour's most electorally successful leader, Tony Blair,

:12:52.:12:53.

has today damned the party under Jeremy Corbyn as a "fringe protest

:12:54.:12:56.

It's hard to think of anything that could cement his popularity more

:12:57.:13:02.

firmly amongst his supporters than harsh words from the man

:13:03.:13:05.

many of them regard as a war criminal.

:13:06.:13:08.

And it clinches the dilemma of the Labour party.

:13:09.:13:11.

Many of the moderate MPs cannot wait to write off their current leader.

:13:12.:13:15.

But each time he faces a decisive moment -

:13:16.:13:17.

the Syria vote, the Oldham by-election - he seems to rise,

:13:18.:13:19.

reenergized, from what appeared to be ashes.

:13:20.:13:21.

Allegra Stratton looks at the state of play.

:13:22.:13:35.

All political leaders need momentum, but this autumn Jeremy Corbyn's

:13:36.:13:39.

first 100 days hasn't flowed smoothly at all.

:13:40.:13:43.

The Labour leader has made some headway.

:13:44.:13:45.

The government U-turned on tax credits and policing, after all.

:13:46.:13:48.

But still, sometimes it seems he's been fighting

:13:49.:13:51.

Last week was a point of real danger for the Labour leader.

:13:52.:13:59.

It brought the prospect of not one, but two crises.

:14:00.:14:04.

Chaos over the Syria vote, and then the possibility of losing

:14:05.:14:06.

Jeremy Corbyn's opponents told me that over the past week,

:14:07.:14:11.

there were moments when he looked in real serious trouble.

:14:12.:14:15.

In the end, just under half of his Shadow Cabinet defied him

:14:16.:14:18.

on Syria, and his party held on to Oldham.

:14:19.:14:22.

He has emerged from this fortnight miserablis enhanced.

:14:23.:14:26.

So, what now for these mighty forces within the Labour Party pitched

:14:27.:14:29.

Two former soldiers, both tipped for great things,

:14:30.:14:35.

I think we have to move forward to May.

:14:36.:14:42.

I think we face elections taking place all around the country,

:14:43.:14:45.

and that provides a mechanism for us all to come together

:14:46.:14:49.

to support our Labour candidates around the country.

:14:50.:14:51.

I think, when I went back to my constituency,

:14:52.:14:53.

Angry at the scheming and behaviour of elements of the PLP.

:14:54.:14:58.

Surely it marked something of a tipping point.

:14:59.:15:12.

The Labour leader brought the majority of his MPs with him,

:15:13.:15:15.

Did the 66 pro-strikes Labour MPs set themselves apart

:15:16.:15:19.

I don't have that concern, because I think if Jeremy's previous

:15:20.:15:24.

record in parliament shows us anything, it shows that it is right

:15:25.:15:27.

and principled to take different views on occasions,

:15:28.:15:29.

about issues you feel strongly about.

:15:30.:15:40.

I'm not saying it's going to take in 20 or 30 years to rehabilitate.

:15:41.:15:44.

I think most members will understand that on this issue of war,

:15:45.:15:48.

an issue of conscience, I think they understand that those

:15:49.:15:50.

people thought long and hard about why they were voting.

:15:51.:15:53.

They were thinking about national security, thinking about,

:15:54.:15:55.

I think most members will understand.

:15:56.:15:59.

They might be disappointed with what they did, they might be

:16:00.:16:01.

I think they will understand that the vast majority of those

:16:02.:16:07.

members, the vast majority, did so for honourable reasons,

:16:08.:16:09.

or what they thought were honourable reasons.

:16:10.:16:11.

I think people should respect that decision.

:16:12.:16:14.

If they then go ahead and start scheming and plotting

:16:15.:16:22.

and doing all of that, then I don't know.

:16:23.:16:24.

But Corbyn himself said that those of you who voted the way you did,

:16:25.:16:28.

Well, I'm not, and my colleagues are not the kind of people

:16:29.:16:35.

who are minded to be swayed by those kinds of comments.

:16:36.:16:40.

So people who voted in favour of strikes in Syria,

:16:41.:16:42.

It isn't tittle tattle, it's about understanding

:16:43.:16:48.

I think the mood of the party is to get behind our leader and take

:16:49.:16:53.

That's what we are committed to doing.

:16:54.:16:58.

We have the Syria vote out of the way.

:16:59.:17:01.

It was a difficult moment for us as a party.

:17:02.:17:03.

We need to move on from it, come together, and get

:17:04.:17:06.

It doesn't sound like you think it rules anybody out.

:17:07.:17:11.

I think our members understand that people have principled views on both

:17:12.:17:14.

sides of the argument, and they will be respectful of that.

:17:15.:17:24.

The clashes are now less frequent and may slow to a stop,

:17:25.:17:27.

but for both sides, things could pick up again very quickly.

:17:28.:17:29.

Senior sources have confirmed to Newsnight that the party's rule

:17:30.:17:32.

book is, to use their word, "silent" on the issue

:17:33.:17:34.

of whether a sitting leader gets to stand again if challenged.

:17:35.:17:37.

Jeremy Corbyn's opponents think that if May's elections are bad,

:17:38.:17:40.

they would corral an overwhelming number of Labour MPs to call for him

:17:41.:17:44.

to go, and promote only one candidate, ensuring

:17:45.:17:46.

That's why at the September party conference, Corbyn's allies wanted

:17:47.:17:50.

We speak to two figures key behind-the-scenes.

:17:51.:17:56.

I think he's one of the most underestimated people

:17:57.:17:58.

Nobody thought he would get on the ballot.

:17:59.:18:01.

Nobody thought he would be a contender.

:18:02.:18:03.

Nobody thought he would be able to win.

:18:04.:18:05.

I think there is a small, vocal minority of people,

:18:06.:18:07.

and they have been shown to be a small minority of people,

:18:08.:18:10.

within the Parliamentary party and the party more generally,

:18:11.:18:12.

who haven't yet come to terms with Jeremy's victory,

:18:13.:18:15.

It should be very clear that the leader, the incumbent,

:18:16.:18:26.

should be able to stand in the election.

:18:27.:18:28.

But I don't think people will be looking to move against the leader

:18:29.:18:31.

The people around Jeremy, and I'm never sure if this

:18:32.:18:35.

is him himself, or people who share his politics,

:18:36.:18:37.

do seem to keep wanting to go looking for fights.

:18:38.:18:40.

Completely unnecessary when, actually, the kind of rather bruised

:18:41.:18:42.

and moderate wing of the party is not looking for a fight.

:18:43.:18:47.

But if they want to come and have a fight over the rule book,

:18:48.:18:50.

whether it's the leadership election rules, or the powers of conference,

:18:51.:18:53.

or whatever, then they will find a fight.

:18:54.:19:04.

It looks like peace might have broken out in the Labour Party

:19:05.:19:07.

For Jeremy Corbyn's opponents, the next moment of pressure

:19:08.:19:16.

will probably come the morning after May's local election results.

:19:17.:19:19.

For Jeremy Corbyn's team, the next moment of pressure

:19:20.:19:21.

will probably be around the time of the party conference

:19:22.:19:23.

when they try to change the rule book.

:19:24.:19:25.

In the meantime, crises will probably hove into view

:19:26.:19:27.

But at some point, the Labour Party has to stop fighting itself, and

:19:28.:19:32.

And now to Paris, where scores of countries are lining up to back

:19:33.:19:41.

A new draft text of the agreement being negotiated at the UN climate

:19:42.:19:45.

change talks has been released, which contains potential

:19:46.:19:49.

for ambitious targets on curbing temperatures and cutting emissions.

:19:50.:19:54.

Crucially though, are concerns the measures being laid out to get

:19:55.:19:57.

This is the copy of the document that should eventually go on to form

:19:58.:20:07.

It's not exactly easy reading but the

:20:08.:20:13.

last one was 48 pages long and this one has been slimmed down to 29.

:20:14.:20:17.

The last one had 900 brackets in it, each symbolising

:20:18.:20:19.

Three quarters of those brackets have been removed.

:20:20.:20:30.

It reflects some of the compromises that have been made over the last

:20:31.:20:33.

week and a half of negotiations but there are some real areas

:20:34.:20:36.

of disagreement here that are starting

:20:37.:20:37.

The first one, on the level of ambition.

:20:38.:20:40.

Is this document here ambitious enough?

:20:41.:20:42.

Should we be aiming to prevent global

:20:43.:20:45.

temperatures from rising above two Celsius, above preindustrial levels

:20:46.:20:47.

or should we aim, more ambitiously, for a 1.5 Celsius threshold

:20:48.:20:50.

$100 billion has been promised by 2020 to help

:20:51.:21:04.

developing countries to skip fossil fuels and move to cleaner

:21:05.:21:07.

But the mechanisms behind that have not been agreed

:21:08.:21:10.

Who pays the money has not been agreed, who gets the money.

:21:11.:21:17.

That is a big issue for some of the countries here.

:21:18.:21:20.

The third enormous issue, one that everyone disagrees

:21:21.:21:24.

on, is the discrepancy between developing countries

:21:25.:21:26.

Should the developed countries who have historically been

:21:27.:21:31.

emitting the bulk of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere,

:21:32.:21:33.

should they really bear the burden of

:21:34.:21:39.

responsibility, should they be doing the most to cut their emissions

:21:40.:21:43.

and give money to help other countries

:21:44.:21:48.

or should it be developing countries who need to do more?

:21:49.:21:51.

We can't just leave it to the developed countries,

:21:52.:21:57.

they now emit 65% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions.

:21:58.:21:59.

Should these countries be doing more and

:22:00.:22:01.

should some of the richer countries, Saudi Arabia and China,

:22:02.:22:04.

should they be contributing finance to the poorer developed countries?

:22:05.:22:07.

There's 48 hours to go and we're starting to

:22:08.:22:09.

There will be a lot of negotiating going on here into the night

:22:10.:22:13.

and they're hoping for a deal by Friday.

:22:14.:22:15.

Joining me now from the talks in Paris, which are continuing

:22:16.:22:26.

into the night, is Giza Gaspar Martins,

:22:27.:22:28.

Chair of the Least Developed Countries.

:22:29.:22:33.

Giza Gaspar Martins, thank you for joining us. The Indian spokesman

:22:34.:22:38.

said today that the wealthy world's obligations have not been met.

:22:39.:22:42.

Developing countries are not fulfilling their obligations. Do you

:22:43.:22:45.

feel that where you have reached tonight is more equal? Tonight, we

:22:46.:22:52.

have finally gotten a draft text that is more workable, that is a

:22:53.:23:01.

more workable attempt at reconciling, putting together the

:23:02.:23:04.

various policy options that we have been advocating. Obviously, there is

:23:05.:23:08.

still quite a bit of negotiation work to be done on this document and

:23:09.:23:13.

we are certainly prepared. We have been asked to stay here for the

:23:14.:23:16.

night and we are prepared to work through those issues. It is not

:23:17.:23:22.

necessarily a dichotomy between developed and developing countries.

:23:23.:23:27.

I think that what we have before us is a realisation on the part of our

:23:28.:23:30.

soul that there are tremendous sacrifices to be made, on all our

:23:31.:23:35.

parts, in order to engage in meaningful climate action. And it is

:23:36.:23:41.

about those sacrifices that we need to begin to have a conversation. And

:23:42.:23:45.

this document puts us on the right footing. You are brave to use the

:23:46.:23:49.

word sacrifice because many people at the talks do not. What does it

:23:50.:23:55.

entail? What kind of sacrifices, on the personal, individual or

:23:56.:23:59.

corporate and governmental level are involved? Firstly, we must agree.

:24:00.:24:08.

And now I think there is quite tremendous political Unison. There

:24:09.:24:12.

is a unanimous realisation that climate change is a threat, is a

:24:13.:24:20.

phenomenon that we must tackle. And we must tackle it in order to keep

:24:21.:24:26.

us all safe. Keeping us all safe means limiting global temperatures

:24:27.:24:33.

rises to 1.5 degrees. And that is where the conversation about

:24:34.:24:37.

sacrifices comes in. It certainly means that development needs to be

:24:38.:24:41.

greener, development needs to be cleaner in terms of emissions of

:24:42.:24:45.

greenhouse gases, and for it to be clean it means that we need to

:24:46.:24:49.

engage in a conversation about sharing the pools that will enable

:24:50.:24:52.

clean development. You have mentioned that figure, 1.5, do you

:24:53.:24:59.

think you will come away from this fortnight with that figure of 1.5

:25:00.:25:07.

degrees as a cap? Any agreement that seeks or aims to keep all of us safe

:25:08.:25:15.

needs to begin to look at 1.5 or below 1.5. This is not a number that

:25:16.:25:20.

we have pulled out of a hat. This is what science is informing us needs

:25:21.:25:27.

to be done. Even 1.5 degrees, the scientific consensus tells us that

:25:28.:25:32.

very many of us will not be safe. Therefore, anything above 1.5 is not

:25:33.:25:39.

fully tackling the challenges before us. Understood. Giza Gaspar-Martins,

:25:40.:25:40.

thank you very much. Now, do you describe yourself

:25:41.:25:43.

as virtuous when you eat If so, you may warm

:25:44.:25:45.

to a growing trend of those It describes a way of cooking

:25:46.:25:49.

or consuming food in as close to its natural state as possible,

:25:50.:25:53.

often avoiding gluten, dairy, sugar, fat -

:25:54.:25:55.

or, let's just say, any Proponents swear by it,

:25:56.:25:57.

and love the way they feel on it, but should we be wary of any fad

:25:58.:26:02.

that conflates puritanical consumption with the idea

:26:03.:26:05.

of being, well, "good"? Our man with a doggy

:26:06.:26:07.

bag is Stephen Smith. # My milkshake brings all the boys

:26:08.:26:14.

to the yard # And they're like,

:26:15.:26:18.

but this far into Newsnight, I'm ready for some full

:26:19.:26:29.

It's the kind of grub we associate with the fragrant Nigella.

:26:30.:26:41.

It seems she's worried that some adherents to so-called clean eating

:26:42.:26:44.

may be masking eating disorders or body issues.

:26:45.:26:50.

The folks here at Nama in West London ought to know.

:26:51.:27:00.

They have been made by dehydrating a batter of courgettes and walnuts,

:27:01.:27:18.

spreading it and dehydrating it at about 40 degrees for about 24

:27:19.:27:21.

hours until they go into solid pizza bases like this.

:27:22.:27:26.

what's wrong with the regular pizza base?

:27:27.:27:31.

There's nothing wrong with it, but because we are a raw vegan cafe,

:27:32.:27:35.

and because we try to provide food for people who have intolerances

:27:36.:27:37.

to gluten or wheat, and they can't consume them,

:27:38.:27:40.

How about some pasta made from cold raw courgette strips

:27:41.:27:47.

It's an inactive form of yeast that adds flavour to the dish.

:27:48.:28:03.

Marinating, taking up all the flavours.

:28:04.:28:20.

my body does kind of pay the price for it, and I do feel a little less

:28:21.:28:52.

Again, I don't think it's whether somebody should or shouldn't

:28:53.:28:56.

do something, it's just doing what you feel is right.

:28:57.:28:58.

If someone has wholesome raw food or vegan food,

:28:59.:29:00.

and it makes them feel great, then why not, let them

:29:01.:29:03.

My whole philosophy is about eating healthy 70% of the time and then

:29:04.:29:10.

doing whatever you want 30% of the time, because if you make it

:29:11.:29:13.

100%, it becomes completely unsustainable, and at one point that

:29:14.:29:15.

If you tell yourself you can't have it, the way our mind works,

:29:16.:29:23.

we are going to want it at some point, and then the guilt sets in.

:29:24.:29:29.

The menu at Nama makes it clear that recipes contain nuts.

:29:30.:29:32.

Nigella seems to be warning the same is true of the clean food movement.

:29:33.:29:41.

Joining me now, Alexandra Dudley, whose company makes organic,

:29:42.:29:46.

artisan seeds - and Celebrity MasterChef critic Jay Rayner.

:29:47.:29:50.

Nice to have you both here. When we were looking at their pizza base

:29:51.:29:57.

made from Walmart and organic dehydrated courgette, you said it

:29:58.:30:01.

looked yummy. Is that part of your diet? Actually, I said it slightly

:30:02.:30:10.

ironically. Raw pizza is not necessarily my meal of choice. But

:30:11.:30:14.

that is not to say I don't like all raw food. I think some of the more

:30:15.:30:19.

celebrated... Talk us through what you understand as clean eating. Take

:30:20.:30:24.

us through that. What does that mean for you? Personally, and I wasn't

:30:25.:30:30.

wearing this earlier, for me it means food that is not overly

:30:31.:30:35.

processed and is real food. So real food that you cook at home, and that

:30:36.:30:42.

includes things like butter, eggs, and I am a bit more of an advocate

:30:43.:30:48.

for a more all-rounder diet. Gluten, I don't eat gluten, I am a coeliac

:30:49.:30:53.

and I cannot eat it. I try not to eat dairy but when there is gelato,

:30:54.:30:58.

I eat dairy because I like it. I don't have yoghurt every day because

:30:59.:31:02.

it makes my skin bad and it makes me cranky and that is just what works

:31:03.:31:07.

for me. I did used to same clean eating a lot on Instagram, which was

:31:08.:31:11.

a strong social media channel for me. And I changed it, I made a

:31:12.:31:16.

conscious decision to change it a couple of months ago, mainly because

:31:17.:31:21.

I felt that what clean eating means now is a completely, it's not clean

:31:22.:31:27.

eating, it is a warped vision of what clean eating is.

:31:28.:31:32.

And it's this kind of idea of clean eating... I'm quite strong on

:31:33.:31:39.

language, and the one thing to understand why clean eating is

:31:40.:31:44.

cobblers, but at the way we talk about dirty, dirty dealing, dirty

:31:45.:31:49.

politics, dirty money, and we talk about junkies getting clean and

:31:50.:31:52.

cleaning up their act. There's a moral quality for a clean eating,

:31:53.:31:57.

they are virtuous will stop it plays into the pathology I is in the diet

:31:58.:32:00.

as a way to control the world around us. People talk about processed food

:32:01.:32:06.

as if it is evil. Throughout human history, from the moment we ground

:32:07.:32:12.

flour into wheat, we have had processed food. Really the issue is,

:32:13.:32:17.

is your diet healthy or not healthy? That's all it's about. The chef was

:32:18.:32:22.

talking about collapsing, coming off the wagon, and it has this religious

:32:23.:32:26.

overtone that you have been bad or let yourself down. Is that a worry

:32:27.:32:34.

for you? It is. It's a mega worry, it's extreme, I think. There have

:32:35.:32:38.

been some comments about the word clean eating on social media

:32:39.:32:44.

channels in particular, it being an excuse and way for people to mask

:32:45.:32:49.

eating disorders. I agree with that, hence the reason we have chosen to

:32:50.:32:56.

remove that. That's why we say it real, feel real. What does that

:32:57.:33:03.

mean? What's eating John Reel? You confessed to eating a worryingly

:33:04.:33:07.

sweaty sausage from a cart in Trafalgar Square. I eat a mixed

:33:08.:33:15.

diet. We have the dissolute almost 50-something man against the youth

:33:16.:33:20.

over here. I'm not the best proponent for this visually. Nigella

:33:21.:33:26.

is roughly my generation, and she should talk these things up. There

:33:27.:33:30.

is a joy in food. We sometimes eat terrible things. Have you ever eaten

:33:31.:33:37.

fried chicken from a high-street brand? Of course you have. Where is

:33:38.:33:42.

the shame? I've also eaten salad. It's amazing! Alexandra has as well.

:33:43.:33:50.

Have you done a KFC? Other brands are available. I'm more of a sweet

:33:51.:33:59.

girl. Do you wake up in the morning feel like you have sinned, like you

:34:00.:34:04.

have to purge? The whole idea of virtue. I have to say that, as a

:34:05.:34:12.

woman, and being in the industry I'm in, yeah, I do, often wake up and

:34:13.:34:17.

feel that way. Would you punish yourself with double the exercise or

:34:18.:34:21.

half the food? No, I tried to distance myself from those thoughts.

:34:22.:34:27.

I think we have enough of them. For my punishment I go down to the gym.

:34:28.:34:34.

So you wake up thinking, oh no? I have been a large man all my life. I

:34:35.:34:43.

have a metabolism engineered for the Russian Steppes. But I happen to

:34:44.:34:47.

live in London. I'm now a restaurant critic, but I do something by going

:34:48.:34:51.

to the gym several times a week and that's how I work it out. We have

:34:52.:34:56.

run out of time, but thank you very much.

:34:57.:34:57.

Mog the forgetful cat is, roughly speaking,

:34:58.:34:59.

But she's back at the top of the bestsellers this Christmas,

:35:00.:35:03.

resurrected in a brand new title - Mog's Christmas Calamity -

:35:04.:35:06.

to raise money for Save the Children - over ?1 million so far.

:35:07.:35:12.

Her creator, Judith Kerr, is more than twice her age

:35:13.:35:14.

but as lucid and inspirational as ever.

:35:15.:35:16.

The author of The Tiger who Came to Tea and When Hitler Stole Pink

:35:17.:35:19.

Rabbit - which describes her childhood fleeing Hitler's Germany

:35:20.:35:22.

and moving as a refugee to Paris - sat down to talk to me

:35:23.:35:25.

about what she describes as an extraordinarily lucky life -

:35:26.:35:27.

and about how that tiger first emerged.

:35:28.:35:29.

I began by asking her about her own literary journey.

:35:30.:35:32.

I was 45 when my first book was published.

:35:33.:35:37.

I had done other things before, but I always wanted to draw.

:35:38.:35:41.

The other things, like writing stuff for the BBC, were sort

:35:42.:35:47.

of accidental, because I was married to a very good scriptwriter,

:35:48.:35:50.

Because you have this other thing to think about.

:35:51.:36:02.

I think if I didn't draw I would probably have taken

:36:03.:36:05.

When people put their own interpretations

:36:06.:36:12.

on your stories, The Tiger Who Came To Tea, does it make you giggle?

:36:13.:36:16.

I read it every night for months to my son,

:36:17.:36:24.

and started imagining it was about sexual awakening

:36:25.:36:27.

I'm reliably informed I'm wrong, but that is what was going

:36:28.:36:35.

Will you tell us what was at the base of the tiger?

:36:36.:36:42.

Before my son was born, there was only my daughter and myself.

:36:43.:36:47.

She was two going on three, and Tom, my husband,

:36:48.:36:50.

was, I forget what film he was making, but he was out a lot

:36:51.:36:54.

Whereas normally he was at home writing.

:36:55.:37:00.

We had been to the zoo, so it seemed reasonable

:37:01.:37:08.

We both thought they were incredibly beautiful.

:37:09.:37:13.

You've got The Tiger Who Came To Tea, you've

:37:14.:37:26.

got a very dark book, When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit,

:37:27.:37:31.

Do you think that you need to protect children

:37:32.:37:35.

from the realities of the world, shelter them, or show them?

:37:36.:37:38.

I didn't think about either of those.

:37:39.:37:43.

I loved being in Switzerland, especially in Paris

:37:44.:37:54.

I was talking to Tom about writing this book.

:37:55.:38:02.

He said, it can't just be about your happy childhood.

:38:03.:38:05.

Hitler has got to be on the first page.

:38:06.:38:08.

My father had been warned by a stranger to get out of Germany

:38:09.:38:22.

immediately, because they were planning to take away his passport.

:38:23.:38:26.

He was afraid that the Nazis would hang onto us to get

:38:27.:38:37.

The moment when we were able to join him.

:38:38.:38:42.

His face was white, and his eyes were searching the crowd,

:38:43.:38:52.

And then Papa, who was always so dignified, who never did anything

:38:53.:39:08.

in a hurry, suddenly ran towards them.

:39:09.:39:12.

He put his arms around Mama and hugged

:39:13.:39:18.

her, then hugged Anna and Max, hugged them all and wouldn't

:39:19.:39:20.

And you grew up in Paris, where you spent

:39:21.:39:34.

Yes, my parents were very protective, and I never really

:39:35.:39:41.

understood how awful it was for them.

:39:42.:39:47.

My mother was incredibly unhappy and I didn't notice?

:39:48.:39:50.

I only found out about it long after her

:39:51.:39:55.

There was an archive about my father, and they keep

:39:56.:40:01.

finding letters that he has written, or people have written to him,

:40:02.:40:11.

she wanted to kill not only herself, but my brother

:40:12.:40:14.

and me, to protect us.

:40:15.:40:16.

I looked at the date and I thought, I'd just managed

:40:17.:40:18.

to learn to speak French at that time.

:40:19.:40:20.

It would have been very annoying to waste all that!

:40:21.:40:23.

Looking at all that now, and your parents'

:40:24.:40:27.

experience, at the age of 92, do you feel that you are in control

:40:28.:40:34.

hard for the right for assisted dying.

:40:35.:40:40.

I have, luckily, no reason to end my life.

:40:41.:40:45.

But, I think people are coming round to the idea that if life isn't

:40:46.:40:48.

worth living any more, if you realised you had Alzheimer's,

:40:49.:40:56.

I mean, it's nobody else's business what you do at that point.

:40:57.:41:12.

You are so uplifting to talk to, and razor sharp.

:41:13.:41:15.

Half the time I can't remember the one word I need.

:41:16.:41:25.

The ridiculously lovely Judith Kerr talking to me earlier at her home.

:41:26.:41:47.

That's all we have time for, good night.

:41:48.:41:50.

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