Browse content similar to 09/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, pressure on the PM to make a decision on Heathrow expansion | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
But the government looks set to delay. | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
Maybe it's political - but tonight we ask why we can't seem | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
Tony Blair calls Jeremy Corbyn a tragedy for Labour. | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
Will it play right into the leader's hands? | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
We ask how Labour moderates are lining up after a rocky few | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
I think if Jeremy's previous record in parliament shows us anything, | :00:27. | :00:33. | |
it shows us that it's right and principled to take different | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
views, on occasions, on issues you feel strongly about. | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
And the tiger who came to tea - and has really never left. | :00:41. | :00:51. | |
Judith Kerr talks about the lasting endurance of her characters and why | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
she's top of the Christmas list aged 92. | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
If I didn't draw, I would have probably taken to religion, | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
Have you taken to religion at all? No. | :01:00. | :01:12. | |
"No ifs, no buts, no third runway at Heathrow." | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
The statement made by David Cameron back in 2009, which, | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
even then, looked hostage to fortune. | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
Tonight, six years on, on the eve of a key meeting | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
by a Cabinet committee set to decide whether to delay the decision | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
to expand, the whole question looks even more starkly political. | :01:31. | :01:32. | |
Chambers of commerce from across the country have written | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
to the PM demanding he give it the green light before the end | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
of the year, warning that any delay raises grave concerns | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
about the country's credibility when it comes | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
But there are voices from within the PM's Cabinet | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
who are fiercely against expansion on environmental grounds. | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
And most crucially of all, a Tory candidate for Mayor, | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
Zac Goldmsith, who's made clear he would resign rather than tolerate | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
Does this country, and this government, have a problem when it | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
comes to making the big strategic decisions? | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
Here's our economics correspondent, Duncan Weldon. | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
Due to land tomorrow, a final decision on whether to give | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
the third runway at Heathrow the go-ahead. | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
But like all things involving airports, it is sensible | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
It now looks like the decision has been pushed back by another six | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
months whilst the government gets new environmental | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
Or alternatively, waits for the London mayoral election | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
This is only the latest setback at Heathrow. | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
This camp was set up near the airport by | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
environmental protesters when a decision last looked due. | :02:42. | :02:43. | |
Since then, it has literally had time to | :02:44. | :02:45. | |
This camp is now approaching its sixth birthday. | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
Six years protesting about a decision | :02:49. | :02:49. | |
This saga, and that is the only word that works, has been running a lot | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
It was back at the turn of the millennium that the Department | :02:57. | :03:07. | |
for Transport predicted passenger numbers would double by 2020, | :03:08. | :03:09. | |
In 2003, a white paper was published on a third runway. | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
Three years later, the government confirmed its support | :03:14. | :03:15. | |
2007 saw a public consultation but in 2008, the Conservatives came | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
Finally, in 2009, a third runway was approved. | :03:20. | :03:29. | |
But next year, the coalition agreement ruled | :03:30. | :03:31. | |
Under pressure from business in 2012, an Airports | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
Commission was appointed to review the options and reopen the issue. | :03:38. | :03:39. | |
That report in July this year, backing a third runway. | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
Tomorrow, we are supposed to finally see a final | :03:43. | :03:44. | |
If there is another six months in it, business | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
will be appalled because they will see another deferral, | :03:51. | :03:52. | |
another reason why it can be delayed again. | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
What was the point in having the Davies | :03:58. | :03:59. | |
Our members care far more about a decision being made | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
than they do about whether it is Heathrow or Gatwick. | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
It is actually vital that something is done and done in time for this | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
generation of businesses to be able to use it in going for this trillion | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
pound export goal that this government, | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
laughingly, laughably, suggests ought to be the real target | :04:23. | :04:24. | |
opposes expansion but still wants a decision. | :04:25. | :04:36. | |
If it is not a mayoral election, it is the general | :04:37. | :04:47. | |
election, there is always something that pushes this back. | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
But in the meantime, this is our lives. | :04:50. | :04:51. | |
The government is playing with our lives. | :04:52. | :04:52. | |
We are agreed that we want them to get on with it and make | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
a decision and let us know where we stand and what we can do. | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
Heathrow is not the only example of national | :05:00. | :05:01. | |
Many of our sewers and bridges date back to Victorian | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
More than 100 years later, we still rely on the legacy | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
It took two years for the building of the great Western | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
Isambard Kingdom Brunel built it in just six. | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
We have been at or near the bottom of the league | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
table in all kinds of infrastructure metrics for at least 40 years. | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
In the end, it is about political short termism, | :05:29. | :05:37. | |
not even with different parties. | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
Different governments might change their mind, | :05:42. | :05:43. | |
but within one government you might get a different decision. | :05:44. | :05:45. | |
They are asking people to make investment decisions that will cost | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
billions of pounds and need to be paid back over 50 years. | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
They are just not going to bother when there | :05:54. | :05:55. | |
Politicians have two problems, geography and time. | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
The benefits of expanding Heathrow are spread out | :06:02. | :06:02. | |
But the losers are concentrated in areas like this and that is | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
The benefits accrue over decades but the costs | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
can be concentrated into one 5-year political cycle. | :06:17. | :06:17. | |
Heathrow, Gatwick, somewhere else or nowhere, the future of airport | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
capacity is a key bit of what you might call a long-term | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
economic plan but short-term politics seem to keep | :06:25. | :06:26. | |
We did bid for the government voice in this but they are not joining us | :06:27. | :06:41. | |
tonight. Joining me now, Martin Sorrell, WPP, | :06:42. | :06:42. | |
head of the biggest advertising It's widely assumed there will be | :06:43. | :06:50. | |
delayed decision for six months. What will you do if it's delayed? | :06:51. | :06:58. | |
There's not much I guess we can do, especially in the. It's another | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
example of dithering over a decision. We've had a studious and | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
lengthy decision under Howard Davies, and they came up with the | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
conclusion, and it sounds like the final decision will be postponed. On | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
understandable grounds in some senses because of environmental | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
concerns, but when you look at it in detail, the environmental concerns | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
can be dealt with, as the Howard Davies commission set out. What's | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
important in this context, infrastructure investment, which | :07:35. | :07:36. | |
EuroPro League to this conversation emphasised. -- which your pro you'd. | :07:37. | :07:45. | |
Dubai is understandable, because it's a new country with new | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
infrastructure, but even Paris and Frankfurt and Amsterdam have made | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
far more progress in terms of airport development. It's about | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
trade, jobs, because an expansion at Heathrow will add estimates between | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
60000 and 100,000 jobs around Heathrow. Even more in the context | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
of the UK. It's about connectivity to other airports in the UK, and | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
last but not least, the issue of infrastructure as well. I guess the | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
issue of progress in other countries comes at the expense of democracy at | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
some level. It's more important in this country to preserve that | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
essence of listening to constituents. It is, but there is | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
some degree of expediency here. There is the environmental issue | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
people are talking about. We are going through the process in Paris | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
that is extremely important. There is also the political element, we | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
have mayoral election, both Conservative and Labour main | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
candidates are against the idea of Heathrow expansion. I think that | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
puts the government and Prime Minister in a difficult position. | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
Postponing a decision for six months or so, enables them to deal with | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
that problem, at least until after that election. Unless Zac Goldsmith | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
resigns, as I think one of his associates suggested he might do, | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
infant of that election, with a non-decision in place. Both business | :09:22. | :09:32. | |
and the unions are united on this. Unite, the biggest union of Len | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
McCluskey, has made it clear the unions are in favour of Heathrow | :09:36. | :09:37. | |
expansion as well. That's interesting. Would it be a price | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
worth paying in your eyes to have a politician, a Tory candidate for | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
mayor, resigning for this to go ahead? I presume you will say yes. | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
The importance of this decision transcends a candidate and a mayoral | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
campaign. It's much more fundamental. Talking about long-term | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
economic policy covering education, technology, jobs, skills, training, | :10:09. | :10:16. | |
and infrastructure. This is a key infrastructure investment that is | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
pivotal because there are connection routes that extend from this. There | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
are road routes that extend from this. Jobs extend from this. This | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
infrastructure investment, this lack of decision-making, is critical to | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
the future of the country. You said dithering and delaying, do you see | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
that as endemic to the way this government makes decisions on other | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
matters, for example be EU negotiations we are in the middle of | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
the moment. David Cameron is in Eastern Europe today and tomorrow, | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
do you see that process on the same lines? That's unfair. Taking it, as | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
you said earlier in the conversation, taking into account | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
everybody's interest is very difficult. When you look at the | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
delay, as your film introduction made clear, this decision has been | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
talked about, extending airport capacity, whether it be Heathrow, | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
Gatwick, another airport, Boris's airport, whatever, has been talked | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
about for many years. Actually building this runway at significant | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
cost, whether it was at Heathrow, Gatwick or a new airport, would take | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
a significant period of time, and by that time we will have missed out on | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
major opportunities. You are an advertising man and understand | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
branding. You understand the importance of a word. If David | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
Cameron said in 2009, no ifs, no buts, no third runway, would you not | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
agree that the most important thing for him is to retain credibility and | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
stand by his words? We all make judgments at various points in time | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
that sometimes later we might regret. It may be that conditions | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
and circumstances change. It may be you have to change your point of | :12:07. | :12:08. | |
view because conditions have changed, economic, political and | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
social conditions. It needs a change of mind. It was 2009, its 2015 now. | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
It's linked in a way to the market issue and the EU issue. If we don't | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
have expansion of our infrastructure, if we vote to come | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
out of the EU, these sorts of decisions, rightly or wrongly, will | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
place us in a difficult competitive position. London is a world capital, | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
and by not expanding its airport capacity it limits its appeal as a | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
world capital, and that has serious consequences, I think. | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
Labour's most electorally successful leader, Tony Blair, | :12:52. | :12:53. | |
has today damned the party under Jeremy Corbyn as a "fringe protest | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
It's hard to think of anything that could cement his popularity more | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
firmly amongst his supporters than harsh words from the man | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
many of them regard as a war criminal. | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
And it clinches the dilemma of the Labour party. | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
Many of the moderate MPs cannot wait to write off their current leader. | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
But each time he faces a decisive moment - | :13:16. | :13:17. | |
the Syria vote, the Oldham by-election - he seems to rise, | :13:18. | :13:19. | |
reenergized, from what appeared to be ashes. | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
Allegra Stratton looks at the state of play. | :13:22. | :13:35. | |
All political leaders need momentum, but this autumn Jeremy Corbyn's | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
first 100 days hasn't flowed smoothly at all. | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
The Labour leader has made some headway. | :13:44. | :13:45. | |
The government U-turned on tax credits and policing, after all. | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
But still, sometimes it seems he's been fighting | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
Last week was a point of real danger for the Labour leader. | :13:52. | :13:59. | |
It brought the prospect of not one, but two crises. | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
Chaos over the Syria vote, and then the possibility of losing | :14:05. | :14:06. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's opponents told me that over the past week, | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
there were moments when he looked in real serious trouble. | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
In the end, just under half of his Shadow Cabinet defied him | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
on Syria, and his party held on to Oldham. | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
He has emerged from this fortnight miserablis enhanced. | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
So, what now for these mighty forces within the Labour Party pitched | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
Two former soldiers, both tipped for great things, | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
I think we have to move forward to May. | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
I think we face elections taking place all around the country, | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
and that provides a mechanism for us all to come together | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
to support our Labour candidates around the country. | :14:50. | :14:51. | |
I think, when I went back to my constituency, | :14:52. | :14:53. | |
Angry at the scheming and behaviour of elements of the PLP. | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
Surely it marked something of a tipping point. | :14:59. | :15:12. | |
The Labour leader brought the majority of his MPs with him, | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
Did the 66 pro-strikes Labour MPs set themselves apart | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
I don't have that concern, because I think if Jeremy's previous | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
record in parliament shows us anything, it shows that it is right | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
and principled to take different views on occasions, | :15:28. | :15:29. | |
about issues you feel strongly about. | :15:30. | :15:40. | |
I'm not saying it's going to take in 20 or 30 years to rehabilitate. | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
I think most members will understand that on this issue of war, | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
an issue of conscience, I think they understand that those | :15:49. | :15:50. | |
people thought long and hard about why they were voting. | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
They were thinking about national security, thinking about, | :15:54. | :15:55. | |
I think most members will understand. | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
They might be disappointed with what they did, they might be | :16:00. | :16:01. | |
I think they will understand that the vast majority of those | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
members, the vast majority, did so for honourable reasons, | :16:08. | :16:09. | |
or what they thought were honourable reasons. | :16:10. | :16:11. | |
I think people should respect that decision. | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
If they then go ahead and start scheming and plotting | :16:15. | :16:22. | |
and doing all of that, then I don't know. | :16:23. | :16:24. | |
But Corbyn himself said that those of you who voted the way you did, | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
Well, I'm not, and my colleagues are not the kind of people | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
who are minded to be swayed by those kinds of comments. | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
So people who voted in favour of strikes in Syria, | :16:41. | :16:42. | |
It isn't tittle tattle, it's about understanding | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
I think the mood of the party is to get behind our leader and take | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
That's what we are committed to doing. | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
We have the Syria vote out of the way. | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
It was a difficult moment for us as a party. | :17:02. | :17:03. | |
We need to move on from it, come together, and get | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
It doesn't sound like you think it rules anybody out. | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
I think our members understand that people have principled views on both | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
sides of the argument, and they will be respectful of that. | :17:15. | :17:24. | |
The clashes are now less frequent and may slow to a stop, | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
but for both sides, things could pick up again very quickly. | :17:28. | :17:29. | |
Senior sources have confirmed to Newsnight that the party's rule | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
book is, to use their word, "silent" on the issue | :17:33. | :17:34. | |
of whether a sitting leader gets to stand again if challenged. | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's opponents think that if May's elections are bad, | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
they would corral an overwhelming number of Labour MPs to call for him | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
to go, and promote only one candidate, ensuring | :17:45. | :17:46. | |
That's why at the September party conference, Corbyn's allies wanted | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
We speak to two figures key behind-the-scenes. | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
I think he's one of the most underestimated people | :17:57. | :17:58. | |
Nobody thought he would get on the ballot. | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
Nobody thought he would be a contender. | :18:02. | :18:03. | |
Nobody thought he would be able to win. | :18:04. | :18:05. | |
I think there is a small, vocal minority of people, | :18:06. | :18:07. | |
and they have been shown to be a small minority of people, | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
within the Parliamentary party and the party more generally, | :18:11. | :18:12. | |
who haven't yet come to terms with Jeremy's victory, | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
It should be very clear that the leader, the incumbent, | :18:16. | :18:26. | |
should be able to stand in the election. | :18:27. | :18:28. | |
But I don't think people will be looking to move against the leader | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
The people around Jeremy, and I'm never sure if this | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
is him himself, or people who share his politics, | :18:36. | :18:37. | |
do seem to keep wanting to go looking for fights. | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
Completely unnecessary when, actually, the kind of rather bruised | :18:41. | :18:42. | |
and moderate wing of the party is not looking for a fight. | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
But if they want to come and have a fight over the rule book, | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
whether it's the leadership election rules, or the powers of conference, | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
or whatever, then they will find a fight. | :18:54. | :19:04. | |
It looks like peace might have broken out in the Labour Party | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
For Jeremy Corbyn's opponents, the next moment of pressure | :19:08. | :19:16. | |
will probably come the morning after May's local election results. | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
For Jeremy Corbyn's team, the next moment of pressure | :19:20. | :19:21. | |
will probably be around the time of the party conference | :19:22. | :19:23. | |
when they try to change the rule book. | :19:24. | :19:25. | |
In the meantime, crises will probably hove into view | :19:26. | :19:27. | |
But at some point, the Labour Party has to stop fighting itself, and | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
And now to Paris, where scores of countries are lining up to back | :19:33. | :19:41. | |
A new draft text of the agreement being negotiated at the UN climate | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
change talks has been released, which contains potential | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
for ambitious targets on curbing temperatures and cutting emissions. | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
Crucially though, are concerns the measures being laid out to get | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
This is the copy of the document that should eventually go on to form | :19:58. | :20:07. | |
It's not exactly easy reading but the | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
last one was 48 pages long and this one has been slimmed down to 29. | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
The last one had 900 brackets in it, each symbolising | :20:18. | :20:19. | |
Three quarters of those brackets have been removed. | :20:20. | :20:30. | |
It reflects some of the compromises that have been made over the last | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
week and a half of negotiations but there are some real areas | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
of disagreement here that are starting | :20:37. | :20:37. | |
The first one, on the level of ambition. | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
Is this document here ambitious enough? | :20:41. | :20:42. | |
Should we be aiming to prevent global | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
temperatures from rising above two Celsius, above preindustrial levels | :20:46. | :20:47. | |
or should we aim, more ambitiously, for a 1.5 Celsius threshold | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
$100 billion has been promised by 2020 to help | :20:51. | :21:04. | |
developing countries to skip fossil fuels and move to cleaner | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
But the mechanisms behind that have not been agreed | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
Who pays the money has not been agreed, who gets the money. | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
That is a big issue for some of the countries here. | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
The third enormous issue, one that everyone disagrees | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
on, is the discrepancy between developing countries | :21:25. | :21:26. | |
Should the developed countries who have historically been | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
emitting the bulk of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, | :21:32. | :21:33. | |
should they really bear the burden of | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
responsibility, should they be doing the most to cut their emissions | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
and give money to help other countries | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
or should it be developing countries who need to do more? | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
We can't just leave it to the developed countries, | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
they now emit 65% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions. | :21:58. | :21:59. | |
Should these countries be doing more and | :22:00. | :22:01. | |
should some of the richer countries, Saudi Arabia and China, | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
should they be contributing finance to the poorer developed countries? | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
There's 48 hours to go and we're starting to | :22:08. | :22:09. | |
There will be a lot of negotiating going on here into the night | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
and they're hoping for a deal by Friday. | :22:14. | :22:15. | |
Joining me now from the talks in Paris, which are continuing | :22:16. | :22:26. | |
into the night, is Giza Gaspar Martins, | :22:27. | :22:28. | |
Chair of the Least Developed Countries. | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
Giza Gaspar Martins, thank you for joining us. The Indian spokesman | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
said today that the wealthy world's obligations have not been met. | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
Developing countries are not fulfilling their obligations. Do you | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
feel that where you have reached tonight is more equal? Tonight, we | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
have finally gotten a draft text that is more workable, that is a | :22:53. | :23:01. | |
more workable attempt at reconciling, putting together the | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
various policy options that we have been advocating. Obviously, there is | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
still quite a bit of negotiation work to be done on this document and | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
we are certainly prepared. We have been asked to stay here for the | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
night and we are prepared to work through those issues. It is not | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
necessarily a dichotomy between developed and developing countries. | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
I think that what we have before us is a realisation on the part of our | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
soul that there are tremendous sacrifices to be made, on all our | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
parts, in order to engage in meaningful climate action. And it is | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
about those sacrifices that we need to begin to have a conversation. And | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
this document puts us on the right footing. You are brave to use the | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
word sacrifice because many people at the talks do not. What does it | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
entail? What kind of sacrifices, on the personal, individual or | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
corporate and governmental level are involved? Firstly, we must agree. | :24:00. | :24:08. | |
And now I think there is quite tremendous political Unison. There | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
is a unanimous realisation that climate change is a threat, is a | :24:13. | :24:20. | |
phenomenon that we must tackle. And we must tackle it in order to keep | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
us all safe. Keeping us all safe means limiting global temperatures | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
rises to 1.5 degrees. And that is where the conversation about | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
sacrifices comes in. It certainly means that development needs to be | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
greener, development needs to be cleaner in terms of emissions of | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
greenhouse gases, and for it to be clean it means that we need to | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
engage in a conversation about sharing the pools that will enable | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
clean development. You have mentioned that figure, 1.5, do you | :24:53. | :24:59. | |
think you will come away from this fortnight with that figure of 1.5 | :25:00. | :25:07. | |
degrees as a cap? Any agreement that seeks or aims to keep all of us safe | :25:08. | :25:15. | |
needs to begin to look at 1.5 or below 1.5. This is not a number that | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
we have pulled out of a hat. This is what science is informing us needs | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
to be done. Even 1.5 degrees, the scientific consensus tells us that | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
very many of us will not be safe. Therefore, anything above 1.5 is not | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
fully tackling the challenges before us. Understood. Giza Gaspar-Martins, | :25:40. | :25:40. | |
thank you very much. Now, do you describe yourself | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
as virtuous when you eat If so, you may warm | :25:44. | :25:45. | |
to a growing trend of those It describes a way of cooking | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
or consuming food in as close to its natural state as possible, | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
often avoiding gluten, dairy, sugar, fat - | :25:54. | :25:55. | |
or, let's just say, any Proponents swear by it, | :25:56. | :25:57. | |
and love the way they feel on it, but should we be wary of any fad | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
that conflates puritanical consumption with the idea | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
of being, well, "good"? Our man with a doggy | :26:06. | :26:07. | |
bag is Stephen Smith. # My milkshake brings all the boys | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
to the yard # And they're like, | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
but this far into Newsnight, I'm ready for some full | :26:19. | :26:29. | |
It's the kind of grub we associate with the fragrant Nigella. | :26:30. | :26:41. | |
It seems she's worried that some adherents to so-called clean eating | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
may be masking eating disorders or body issues. | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
The folks here at Nama in West London ought to know. | :26:51. | :27:00. | |
They have been made by dehydrating a batter of courgettes and walnuts, | :27:01. | :27:18. | |
spreading it and dehydrating it at about 40 degrees for about 24 | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
hours until they go into solid pizza bases like this. | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
what's wrong with the regular pizza base? | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
There's nothing wrong with it, but because we are a raw vegan cafe, | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
and because we try to provide food for people who have intolerances | :27:36. | :27:37. | |
to gluten or wheat, and they can't consume them, | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
How about some pasta made from cold raw courgette strips | :27:41. | :27:47. | |
It's an inactive form of yeast that adds flavour to the dish. | :27:48. | :28:03. | |
Marinating, taking up all the flavours. | :28:04. | :28:20. | |
my body does kind of pay the price for it, and I do feel a little less | :28:21. | :28:52. | |
Again, I don't think it's whether somebody should or shouldn't | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
do something, it's just doing what you feel is right. | :28:57. | :28:58. | |
If someone has wholesome raw food or vegan food, | :28:59. | :29:00. | |
and it makes them feel great, then why not, let them | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
My whole philosophy is about eating healthy 70% of the time and then | :29:04. | :29:10. | |
doing whatever you want 30% of the time, because if you make it | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
100%, it becomes completely unsustainable, and at one point that | :29:14. | :29:15. | |
If you tell yourself you can't have it, the way our mind works, | :29:16. | :29:23. | |
we are going to want it at some point, and then the guilt sets in. | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
The menu at Nama makes it clear that recipes contain nuts. | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
Nigella seems to be warning the same is true of the clean food movement. | :29:33. | :29:41. | |
Joining me now, Alexandra Dudley, whose company makes organic, | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
artisan seeds - and Celebrity MasterChef critic Jay Rayner. | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
Nice to have you both here. When we were looking at their pizza base | :29:51. | :29:57. | |
made from Walmart and organic dehydrated courgette, you said it | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
looked yummy. Is that part of your diet? Actually, I said it slightly | :30:02. | :30:10. | |
ironically. Raw pizza is not necessarily my meal of choice. But | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
that is not to say I don't like all raw food. I think some of the more | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
celebrated... Talk us through what you understand as clean eating. Take | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
us through that. What does that mean for you? Personally, and I wasn't | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
wearing this earlier, for me it means food that is not overly | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
processed and is real food. So real food that you cook at home, and that | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
includes things like butter, eggs, and I am a bit more of an advocate | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
for a more all-rounder diet. Gluten, I don't eat gluten, I am a coeliac | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
and I cannot eat it. I try not to eat dairy but when there is gelato, | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
I eat dairy because I like it. I don't have yoghurt every day because | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
it makes my skin bad and it makes me cranky and that is just what works | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
for me. I did used to same clean eating a lot on Instagram, which was | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
a strong social media channel for me. And I changed it, I made a | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
conscious decision to change it a couple of months ago, mainly because | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
I felt that what clean eating means now is a completely, it's not clean | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
eating, it is a warped vision of what clean eating is. | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
And it's this kind of idea of clean eating... I'm quite strong on | :31:33. | :31:39. | |
language, and the one thing to understand why clean eating is | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
cobblers, but at the way we talk about dirty, dirty dealing, dirty | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
politics, dirty money, and we talk about junkies getting clean and | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
cleaning up their act. There's a moral quality for a clean eating, | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
they are virtuous will stop it plays into the pathology I is in the diet | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
as a way to control the world around us. People talk about processed food | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
as if it is evil. Throughout human history, from the moment we ground | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
flour into wheat, we have had processed food. Really the issue is, | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
is your diet healthy or not healthy? That's all it's about. The chef was | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
talking about collapsing, coming off the wagon, and it has this religious | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
overtone that you have been bad or let yourself down. Is that a worry | :32:27. | :32:34. | |
for you? It is. It's a mega worry, it's extreme, I think. There have | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
been some comments about the word clean eating on social media | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
channels in particular, it being an excuse and way for people to mask | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
eating disorders. I agree with that, hence the reason we have chosen to | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
remove that. That's why we say it real, feel real. What does that | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
mean? What's eating John Reel? You confessed to eating a worryingly | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
sweaty sausage from a cart in Trafalgar Square. I eat a mixed | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
diet. We have the dissolute almost 50-something man against the youth | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
over here. I'm not the best proponent for this visually. Nigella | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
is roughly my generation, and she should talk these things up. There | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
is a joy in food. We sometimes eat terrible things. Have you ever eaten | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
fried chicken from a high-street brand? Of course you have. Where is | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
the shame? I've also eaten salad. It's amazing! Alexandra has as well. | :33:43. | :33:50. | |
Have you done a KFC? Other brands are available. I'm more of a sweet | :33:51. | :33:59. | |
girl. Do you wake up in the morning feel like you have sinned, like you | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
have to purge? The whole idea of virtue. I have to say that, as a | :34:05. | :34:12. | |
woman, and being in the industry I'm in, yeah, I do, often wake up and | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
feel that way. Would you punish yourself with double the exercise or | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
half the food? No, I tried to distance myself from those thoughts. | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
I think we have enough of them. For my punishment I go down to the gym. | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
So you wake up thinking, oh no? I have been a large man all my life. I | :34:35. | :34:43. | |
have a metabolism engineered for the Russian Steppes. But I happen to | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
live in London. I'm now a restaurant critic, but I do something by going | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
to the gym several times a week and that's how I work it out. We have | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
run out of time, but thank you very much. | :34:57. | :34:57. | |
Mog the forgetful cat is, roughly speaking, | :34:58. | :34:59. | |
But she's back at the top of the bestsellers this Christmas, | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
resurrected in a brand new title - Mog's Christmas Calamity - | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
to raise money for Save the Children - over ?1 million so far. | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
Her creator, Judith Kerr, is more than twice her age | :35:13. | :35:14. | |
but as lucid and inspirational as ever. | :35:15. | :35:16. | |
The author of The Tiger who Came to Tea and When Hitler Stole Pink | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
Rabbit - which describes her childhood fleeing Hitler's Germany | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
and moving as a refugee to Paris - sat down to talk to me | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
about what she describes as an extraordinarily lucky life - | :35:26. | :35:27. | |
and about how that tiger first emerged. | :35:28. | :35:29. | |
I began by asking her about her own literary journey. | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
I was 45 when my first book was published. | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
I had done other things before, but I always wanted to draw. | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
The other things, like writing stuff for the BBC, were sort | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
of accidental, because I was married to a very good scriptwriter, | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
Because you have this other thing to think about. | :35:51. | :36:02. | |
I think if I didn't draw I would probably have taken | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
When people put their own interpretations | :36:06. | :36:12. | |
on your stories, The Tiger Who Came To Tea, does it make you giggle? | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
I read it every night for months to my son, | :36:17. | :36:24. | |
and started imagining it was about sexual awakening | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
I'm reliably informed I'm wrong, but that is what was going | :36:28. | :36:35. | |
Will you tell us what was at the base of the tiger? | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
Before my son was born, there was only my daughter and myself. | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
She was two going on three, and Tom, my husband, | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
was, I forget what film he was making, but he was out a lot | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
Whereas normally he was at home writing. | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
We had been to the zoo, so it seemed reasonable | :37:01. | :37:08. | |
We both thought they were incredibly beautiful. | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
You've got The Tiger Who Came To Tea, you've | :37:14. | :37:26. | |
got a very dark book, When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit, | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
Do you think that you need to protect children | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
from the realities of the world, shelter them, or show them? | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
I didn't think about either of those. | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
I loved being in Switzerland, especially in Paris | :37:44. | :37:54. | |
I was talking to Tom about writing this book. | :37:55. | :38:02. | |
He said, it can't just be about your happy childhood. | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
Hitler has got to be on the first page. | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
My father had been warned by a stranger to get out of Germany | :38:09. | :38:22. | |
immediately, because they were planning to take away his passport. | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
He was afraid that the Nazis would hang onto us to get | :38:27. | :38:37. | |
The moment when we were able to join him. | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
His face was white, and his eyes were searching the crowd, | :38:43. | :38:52. | |
And then Papa, who was always so dignified, who never did anything | :38:53. | :39:08. | |
in a hurry, suddenly ran towards them. | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
He put his arms around Mama and hugged | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
her, then hugged Anna and Max, hugged them all and wouldn't | :39:19. | :39:20. | |
And you grew up in Paris, where you spent | :39:21. | :39:34. | |
Yes, my parents were very protective, and I never really | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
understood how awful it was for them. | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
My mother was incredibly unhappy and I didn't notice? | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
I only found out about it long after her | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
There was an archive about my father, and they keep | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
finding letters that he has written, or people have written to him, | :40:02. | :40:11. | |
she wanted to kill not only herself, but my brother | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
and me, to protect us. | :40:15. | :40:16. | |
I looked at the date and I thought, I'd just managed | :40:17. | :40:18. | |
to learn to speak French at that time. | :40:19. | :40:20. | |
It would have been very annoying to waste all that! | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
Looking at all that now, and your parents' | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
experience, at the age of 92, do you feel that you are in control | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
hard for the right for assisted dying. | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
I have, luckily, no reason to end my life. | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
But, I think people are coming round to the idea that if life isn't | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
worth living any more, if you realised you had Alzheimer's, | :40:49. | :40:56. | |
I mean, it's nobody else's business what you do at that point. | :40:57. | :41:12. | |
You are so uplifting to talk to, and razor sharp. | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
Half the time I can't remember the one word I need. | :41:16. | :41:25. | |
The ridiculously lovely Judith Kerr talking to me earlier at her home. | :41:26. | :41:47. | |
That's all we have time for, good night. | :41:48. | :41:50. |