10/12/2015 Newsnight


10/12/2015

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 10/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

It's been a week since British airstrikes in Syria began.

:00:00.:00:08.

Tonight we'll look at the fight against IS in the air

:00:09.:00:13.

and on the ground and we'll find out how the Americans are targeting IS's

:00:14.:00:16.

To date, they have had access to major revenues that have allowed

:00:17.:00:24.

But if we can start taking a real chunk out of Isil's revenues,

:00:25.:00:28.

The Defence Secretary will give us his assessment.

:00:29.:00:34.

Also tonight: The decision on Heathrow's third runway -

:00:35.:00:37.

delayed, conveniently, until after next year's

:00:38.:00:39.

What does the chair of the Government's Infrastructure

:00:40.:00:45.

And how climate change in Mongolia has created a tragic war

:00:46.:01:02.

between sheep herders and snow leopards.

:01:03.:01:14.

It's far too early to make any proper assessment

:01:15.:01:19.

as to the effectiveness of British airstrikes in Syria.

:01:20.:01:22.

It is predicted to be a campaign of a long duration.

:01:23.:01:25.

We've been told to expect years, not months.

:01:26.:01:27.

The first British targets were oilfields in eastern Syria,

:01:28.:01:32.

making the point that economic targets are in sight.

:01:33.:01:36.

All part of the effort to undermine the resources going to so-called

:01:37.:01:39.

Today, in fact, news came that the coalition struck and killed

:01:40.:01:42.

We'll hear more about the economic front shortly.

:01:43.:01:47.

But how is the military effort progressing?

:01:48.:01:49.

Michael Fallon is the Defence Secretary.

:01:50.:01:52.

He's in Washington and he joins us from there now.

:01:53.:01:59.

Thank you for giving us the time. What effect have British strikes had

:02:00.:02:06.

so far? We have seen a very impressive start, the aria have

:02:07.:02:11.

moved seamlessly into dealing with Syria and they were already

:02:12.:02:17.

operating in Iraq, we have doubled the strikeforce, we have raised the

:02:18.:02:21.

tempo of missions, more than doubled them. And we have already had some

:02:22.:02:30.

successful strikes, as you say, on the infrastructure that supports

:02:31.:02:35.

Isil, from which it drives its revenue and from which it has been

:02:36.:02:39.

financing terrorist attacks in Europe to stop there is a long way

:02:40.:02:46.

to go before we deal with the monster that is Isil-Daesh at its

:02:47.:02:53.

source. A lot was made of the Brimstone missiles, at any of those

:02:54.:03:00.

bemused? We have been using our precision strike ability, and these

:03:01.:03:07.

munitions are a key part of that because they are able to minimise

:03:08.:03:09.

munitions are a key part of that any civilian casualties and deal

:03:10.:03:13.

specifically with targets like oil wells, one building but not those

:03:14.:03:21.

next door and it is that decision strike that our allies want us to

:03:22.:03:25.

bring to this campaign. How we used it so far in Syria? Yes, we have

:03:26.:03:33.

been using these missions in Syria alongside the campaign network. Pave

:03:34.:03:39.

way is equally as precise as the brimstone missiles and hitting these

:03:40.:03:45.

oil well head decisively. What busy constraint? What stops us doing

:03:46.:03:51.

more? The resources we have there or is it targets on the ground that you

:03:52.:03:56.

are confident you can take out and are not civilian, without civilian

:03:57.:04:02.

casualty? That are sufficient targets to deal with, there is also

:04:03.:04:08.

a cover each night in support of the ground forces, dynamic targeting

:04:09.:04:13.

where planes are above the ground forces, ready to give help. But

:04:14.:04:19.

where the RAF has, and specifically has been to add that precision

:04:20.:04:23.

strike and we will see more of that in the next days and weeks on

:04:24.:04:28.

logistics and command control headquarters and only supply routes

:04:29.:04:32.

that run from Syria eastwards into Iraq itself. I want to ask whether

:04:33.:04:38.

we have people on the ground helping identify targets because Newsnight

:04:39.:04:44.

understands that in Afghanistan, brimstone missiles, three quarters

:04:45.:04:47.

were directed by people on the ground who were able to ten point

:04:48.:04:53.

two target and if you do not have a very clear idea about what the

:04:54.:04:57.

target is, there is no point in having a precise missile that hit a

:04:58.:05:01.

target that might not be the right thing. Have we got people on the

:05:02.:05:06.

ground guiding us? Not our own people but there are Kurdish forces

:05:07.:05:12.

fighting in north-east Syria against Isil-Daesh and we are providing a

:05:13.:05:16.

lot of the overhead surveillance, the intelligence and analysis in the

:05:17.:05:20.

skies above that helps more precise targeting. Those people on the

:05:21.:05:26.

ground, they are directing our missiles? Just to be clear? Yes,

:05:27.:05:32.

wordy Kurdish forces need help in taking out targets, those targets

:05:33.:05:37.

are cleared through our targeting processes and agreed and we will

:05:38.:05:42.

come down and had them for them. The key question, only one week in, is

:05:43.:05:48.

whether we can sustain the effort we are making there. What is your view

:05:49.:05:55.

of the sustainability of this? It is only 16 jets out there, six Typhoons

:05:56.:06:02.

and ten tornadoes, people are saying that is using up quite a lot of this

:06:03.:06:09.

lack we would have had in the RAF? The RAF are fully engaged in this,

:06:10.:06:12.

they have been able to sustain the campaign and Iraq over more than one

:06:13.:06:18.

year, flying six days a week, flying pairs of tornadoes in the sky,

:06:19.:06:24.

helping this campaign effort. We have doubled the strikeforce so we

:06:25.:06:27.

should be able to sustain us for some time. We have one of the

:06:28.:06:31.

largest strike forces in the region and we plan to be there for a while.

:06:32.:06:37.

What happens in the event that something happens elsewhere in the

:06:38.:06:42.

world that requires fast jets, typhoons and tornadoes, to assist?

:06:43.:06:48.

Perhaps something in the Baltic states? Do we have any spare

:06:49.:06:55.

capacity at all to be in any other theatre rather than the one in Syria

:06:56.:07:02.

and Iraq? Absolutely, we have more Typhoons and tornadoes guarding the

:07:03.:07:07.

skies over Britain against any impression by long-range Russian

:07:08.:07:11.

aircraft and aircraft in the Falklands deterring any possible

:07:12.:07:15.

Argentinian reprise of their original invasion and we have other

:07:16.:07:21.

aircraft that we can send, we're sending them back to the Baltics in

:07:22.:07:25.

the spring to be part of the policing mission so these are not

:07:26.:07:29.

the only aircraft. We have doubled the force inside Cyprus. Fully

:07:30.:07:35.

equipped, Battle ready, the diamond fleet aircraft, how many spare are

:07:36.:07:42.

sitting around? You cannot take them out of the squadrons looking over

:07:43.:07:47.

the UK and put them in the Baltics? You will not take them out of the

:07:48.:07:50.

Falklands and put them in another theatre. What have you got it is

:07:51.:07:55.

another theatre that comes up in the next two years? The answer is

:07:56.:08:03.

enough. So after Syria that we were able to double the strikeforce after

:08:04.:08:10.

the vote, we have other aircraft in reserve and we want to keep some

:08:11.:08:14.

aircraft in reserve, as you say. There are other threats to this

:08:15.:08:17.

country that might emerge and we may have other commitments but there are

:08:18.:08:21.

enough aircraft and we are able at the moment to make a meaningful

:08:22.:08:27.

contribution to this campaign over Syria just as we have been doing

:08:28.:08:32.

previously in Iraq. One last point, as the Defence Secretary, do you

:08:33.:08:37.

ever reflect on the fact that we say that we spend more on defence than

:08:38.:08:44.

France and France comes out ahead in different measures but the official

:08:45.:08:46.

line is really the biggest spender in Europe, yet the French can put 12

:08:47.:08:54.

jets, not as many as us, plus an aircraft carrier and 24 planes on

:08:55.:08:58.

that. For the smaller budget they seem to get a lot more bang. Is that

:08:59.:09:05.

fair? I do not think so, we are doing far more around the world, we

:09:06.:09:10.

have troops and planes and ships on 20 operations around the globe

:09:11.:09:13.

tonight, far more than the French and the building two aircraft

:09:14.:09:21.

carriers to add to the Royal Navy and we're adding more frigates and

:09:22.:09:24.

destroyers and the point of the strategic defence review we have

:09:25.:09:28.

just completed his Regal have stronger and better defence, more

:09:29.:09:33.

planes and ships and troops at readiness, better equipment for the

:09:34.:09:37.

special forces. We are stepping up, as France and the Americans have

:09:38.:09:41.

asked us to do, as the UN has asked us. We are stepping up in this fight

:09:42.:09:46.

and I will be reviewing the progress of this campaign with the American

:09:47.:09:50.

Defence Secretary and the Pentagon tomorrow. Thank you very much

:09:51.:09:51.

indeed. One argument in currency last week,

:09:52.:09:54.

was that more important than the military action would be

:09:55.:09:56.

an assault on Isis and its finances - the oil trade, the donors sending

:09:57.:10:00.

money in, the banking connections As it happens, the man

:10:01.:10:02.

who is in charge of the economic war Adam Szubin is an acting

:10:03.:10:07.

undersecretary at the US Department of the Treasury, responsible

:10:08.:10:12.

for terrorism and financial We'll hear from him shortly

:10:13.:10:15.

but first, Mark Urban The campaign against Islamic State

:10:16.:10:18.

takes many forms, but it is the most violent that usually

:10:19.:10:27.

grab the attention. This evening the Americans announced

:10:28.:10:30.

that they killed Abu Saleh, who they described as Islamic

:10:31.:10:38.

State's financial minister. We recently conducted strikes

:10:39.:10:40.

against three leaders in Isil's Their removal will degrade Isil's

:10:41.:10:43.

ability to command and control troops and it disrupts the ability

:10:44.:10:52.

to finance their efforts. But a recent series of attacks

:10:53.:10:57.

on the people running the groups moneymaking activities is just

:10:58.:11:00.

the visible part of an often covert Unfortunately, finance is global, it

:11:01.:11:15.

crosses borders without difficulty and I think the questions we have to

:11:16.:11:19.

ask is what are we doing in Europe? How are we letting up in Europe to

:11:20.:11:22.

tackle terrorist financing? And the Middle East? It does not matter what

:11:23.:11:27.

the US does, frankly, this is a global issue and it needs to be

:11:28.:11:32.

tackled at a global level. Where does IIS get its money? Oil and gas

:11:33.:11:38.

sales provided 55% of revenues in this estimate last year. Foreign

:11:39.:11:45.

sympathisers gave just 2%. Other businesses, taxes and extortion made

:11:46.:11:49.

up the rest would even since this estimate was made, the group has

:11:50.:11:53.

expanded its photo state activities and grown new revenue streams. You

:11:54.:12:00.

might call it broadly extortion and by that I mean a combination of

:12:01.:12:04.

confiscations, I'd write confiscations of course, and

:12:05.:12:10.

taxation. The taxation, for example, takes a variety of forms, like

:12:11.:12:17.

school registration fees, parking fines, driving licence fees,

:12:18.:12:23.

violations of public space regulations and so on and so forth.

:12:24.:12:29.

With oil contributing $40 million every month to IS covers, both

:12:30.:12:34.

Russia and the American led coalition have been hitting the

:12:35.:12:36.

trucks and other facilities used in that business. But Russia blames

:12:37.:12:41.

tricky for facilitating the trade while Western countries highlight

:12:42.:12:47.

President Assad's role in buying the oil so it is hardly a joined up

:12:48.:12:51.

approach. There is a double game going on here and I am sure there

:12:52.:12:56.

was lots of politics behind it. We have started to seek middlemen

:12:57.:13:02.

individuals broke Ringo 's oil transactions, there was a recent

:13:03.:13:06.

example of an individual standing between IS and the resident Assad

:13:07.:13:11.

regime and we're starting to go after those middlemen but it feels

:13:12.:13:14.

like there could be more that could be done. The further they have gone

:13:15.:13:21.

in realising their dream of a caliphate, the greater the half

:13:22.:13:23.

increased their need for money. Running everything from water works

:13:24.:13:29.

to traffic police and schools, they have had to take over salaries as

:13:30.:13:34.

the Syrian and Iraqi governments have cut them off. That means the

:13:35.:13:38.

group large amounts of cash and could be feeling the pinch. Without

:13:39.:13:45.

God, I think they cannot devote necessarily so much to military

:13:46.:13:50.

upkeep. They have had to come up with new ways to find education

:13:51.:13:57.

schemes soapmaking students in Mosul pay most of the bees for printing of

:13:58.:14:01.

textbooks, for instance. There was always the danger with steps of

:14:02.:14:06.

unintended consequences, for example while workers or civil servants

:14:07.:14:11.

thrown onto the mercy of Islamic State and, indeed, its payroll by

:14:12.:14:18.

actions taken by the Cornish. Nevertheless, despite the very

:14:19.:14:22.

different perspectives about, for example, who benefits from the

:14:23.:14:27.

medical world trade, among the partners engaged in action against

:14:28.:14:30.

the group, there is some evidence that attempts to hit it financially

:14:31.:14:37.

are bearing evidence. -- dividends. Birds and Western allies have also

:14:38.:14:42.

made some games on the battlefield yesterday. We capturing this time.

:14:43.:14:47.

Here, Islamic State looted all of the property and enslaved the woman.

:14:48.:14:53.

A reminder not only of the brutality of the organisation but also its

:14:54.:14:57.

ability to take desperate measures against local people if it really

:14:58.:14:59.

feels the financial squeeze. So now, the acting undersecretary

:15:00.:15:03.

at the US Department of the Treasury responsible for terrorism

:15:04.:15:06.

and financial intelligence, The man leading US government

:15:07.:15:07.

efforts to cut off Isis' funds, and indeed throttle the money

:15:08.:15:14.

of other terror groups and of nations which are deemed

:15:15.:15:16.

to pose a security threat. I spoke to him earlier and asked him

:15:17.:15:18.

how much money IS really has Isis, unfortunately, or Isil, is

:15:19.:15:34.

sitting on a tremendous amount of money. We need to be very candid

:15:35.:15:38.

about the threat we face as we try to cut off its access to revenue,

:15:39.:15:42.

but the primary two sources of funding have been oil sales and

:15:43.:15:47.

taxation, or you might call it extortion, of funds from the

:15:48.:15:49.

population in the territory they control. What sort of scale are we

:15:50.:15:55.

talking about? Hundreds of millions a year? Billions? I have no idea. We

:15:56.:16:00.

are talking at least hundreds of millions and it could be the many

:16:01.:16:05.

hundreds of millions. It is difficult, we don't have perfect

:16:06.:16:08.

intelligence when it comes to their revenue streams. As they rolled

:16:09.:16:13.

through, in terms of their initial military campaign, and took over

:16:14.:16:16.

cities like Mosul, they were standing banks which had cash in the

:16:17.:16:21.

vaults and Isil obtained control of those bank vaults. That is the bad

:16:22.:16:26.

news. The good news is that once that money is spent, it is not

:16:27.:16:31.

renewable. The Iraqi government has moved to sever the access of all of

:16:32.:16:38.

those bank branches from Baghdad, so therefore the international

:16:39.:16:40.

financial system. Let's talk about oil. Who on earth is buying oil from

:16:41.:16:47.

Isil? First, Isil is a consuming itself of the oil it pulls out of

:16:48.:16:52.

the ground and also has a population that requires electricity in Iraq

:16:53.:16:56.

and Syria. Interestingly, maybe surprisingly for your viewers, the

:16:57.:17:00.

President Assad regime in Syria is a primary customer of the Isil oil,

:17:01.:17:05.

not withstanding that they are in military complex. Each has something

:17:06.:17:09.

the other one once, money on one side, oil on the other and they have

:17:10.:17:15.

done a bit of trade. What about the other oil that is being sold? How

:17:16.:17:22.

difficult is it to stop that trade? Our focus is actually one phase

:17:23.:17:26.

earlier, not necessarily stopping the transactions, but stopping Isil

:17:27.:17:31.

from bringing the oil to market in the first place. What we have seen

:17:32.:17:34.

over the last series of weeks has been stepped up and very smartly

:17:35.:17:40.

crafted as a campaign by the coalition to conduct military

:17:41.:17:42.

strikes against Isil's oil infrastructure and the oil tankers

:17:43.:17:47.

that they rely on to bring it to market. You are saying that most of

:17:48.:17:52.

the Isil money comes from internal sources? Oil, banks, taxation? But

:17:53.:17:57.

there are donors. There is money given to them from outside and a lot

:17:58.:18:01.

of attention has focused on Saudi Arabian donors. Are you satisfied

:18:02.:18:05.

that the governments in the region are doing enough, and let's focus on

:18:06.:18:11.

Saudi Arabia, to stop their citizens donating to Isil? I tell you, we do

:18:12.:18:16.

not actually see major financial donations coming into Isil. I think

:18:17.:18:21.

the phenomenon we witnessed in the cases of other terror groups, and I

:18:22.:18:26.

would think of Al-Qaeda, Hamas, where you have deep pocket wealthy

:18:27.:18:29.

donors, sometimes in the Gulf states, providing money, and

:18:30.:18:33.

sometimes you have charities that are either abused or intentionally

:18:34.:18:36.

set up to funnel funds to terror groups, we have not seen Isil using

:18:37.:18:40.

those channels in any significant way. Now, in part, they would have a

:18:41.:18:47.

very hard time raising funds in a place like Saudi Arabia. The Saudi

:18:48.:18:50.

Arabian government has come a tremendous distance in terms of

:18:51.:18:54.

setting up a meaningful anti-money-laundering and counter

:18:55.:18:57.

finance regime. They deserve credit for that. -- counterterrorism

:18:58.:19:03.

finance regime. You have to remember that the population in Saudi Arabia

:19:04.:19:09.

sees Isil as a threat, which is true of many of the governments in the

:19:10.:19:13.

region. Isil is carrying out attacks that are killing Muslims. They are

:19:14.:19:16.

killing Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims. This is not a group that is

:19:17.:19:22.

tremendously popular in many corners. How much do you think the

:19:23.:19:31.

economics matters? How much can it achieve compared to air strikes? It

:19:32.:19:35.

will have to be both, no question. Remember what I saw's needs are and

:19:36.:19:40.

its expenditures are. -- Isil's. They are trying to gather territory

:19:41.:19:47.

while fighting a multi-front war against the US, the coalition,

:19:48.:19:52.

Russia and various other entities in the east, including the Iraqi army.

:19:53.:19:56.

That is not a cheap, inexpensive endeavour. So their financial needs

:19:57.:20:03.

massive. To date, they have access to major revenues that allowed them

:20:04.:20:07.

to sustain this, but it would we can start taking real chunk out of their

:20:08.:20:12.

revenue we will see the revenue -- repercussions of that. What has

:20:13.:20:18.

caused a bit of tension between the US and Europe have been enormous

:20:19.:20:21.

penalties, hundreds of millions of dollars, billions of dollars in the

:20:22.:20:26.

case of the French banks, over activities by those banks which were

:20:27.:20:31.

said to be breaking American law because of transactions between the

:20:32.:20:35.

European bank and Iran. Do you think the US has been extraterritorial,

:20:36.:20:41.

overzealous in the way it has punished European banks or some of

:20:42.:20:46.

these transgressions? This was not a stray transaction here and there

:20:47.:20:50.

which happen to find its way into a US bank without the knowledge and

:20:51.:20:53.

intent of the European banks. What we are talking about are intentional

:20:54.:21:00.

patterns, and often a programme designed to be able to access US

:21:01.:21:06.

banks to route money to and from parties like Iran and Sudan that

:21:07.:21:12.

were prohibited under US sanctions. And the intent was manifested in

:21:13.:21:17.

things like scrubbing payment transactions and even setting up

:21:18.:21:20.

computer transactions to find the word Iran and delete it and replace

:21:21.:21:24.

it with something more innocuous. Add Szubin, thank you. -- Adam

:21:25.:21:28.

Szubin. saga of bullying and other

:21:29.:21:33.

unpleasantness among young Conservative activists,

:21:34.:21:35.

and in particular the activities of Mark Clarke, the ambitious

:21:36.:21:36.

organiser who has become something The scandal has gathered pace

:21:37.:21:39.

since the death of young activist Elliott Johnson, who claimed

:21:40.:21:42.

he was bullied by Clarke. But should the party have done more

:21:43.:21:44.

to stop Clarke earlier? James Clayton has new evidence

:21:45.:21:47.

of how long the party has known it The scandal over alleged bullying,

:21:48.:22:04.

blackmail and sexual harassment in the youth wing of the Conservative

:22:05.:22:09.

Party reads like a cut-price version of house of cards. At its heart lies

:22:10.:22:13.

one key question, how much did the party know about the alleged

:22:14.:22:16.

bullying before a stream of complaints were received in August

:22:17.:22:20.

of this year, and what did they do about it? Were you given a dossier

:22:21.:22:28.

about bullying in 2010? Arty children -- Chairman Feldman has

:22:29.:22:31.

said he was unaware of any bullying allegations against Mr Clark until

:22:32.:22:36.

Elliot Johnson and a slew of others submitted complaints in August. Last

:22:37.:22:40.

month, the party said this in response to a Newsnight report. A

:22:41.:22:46.

spokesman told us, we have been checking and rechecking that we have

:22:47.:22:50.

not found any evidence of complaints made not dealt with, but we are

:22:51.:22:53.

determined to get to the bottom of has happened. But now Newsnight has

:22:54.:22:59.

learned that a number of complaints were made about bullying by Clarke

:23:00.:23:04.

as far back as 2008, and intriguingly, one of these was even

:23:05.:23:07.

submitted by a man who is now one of the party's most senior

:23:08.:23:12.

spokespeople, its deputy director of communications. Newsnight has

:23:13.:23:15.

obtained an e-mail to Richard Jackson, and he used to be a Young

:23:16.:23:20.

Conservative activist. The e-mail complains of bullying and abusive

:23:21.:23:27.

behaviour at a hustings of a conservative Future election.

:23:28.:23:30.

Conservative Future being the youth wing of the Conservative Party. It

:23:31.:23:32.

goes on to warn... It is understood Mr Jackson passed

:23:33.:23:48.

on the complaint as well as one of his own to Roger Pratt, the then

:23:49.:23:55.

head of discipline at CCHQ. We also have learned that a file was kept on

:23:56.:24:00.

Clarke before 2009 containing multiple complaints. At least one of

:24:01.:24:03.

those complaints was of a serious nature. It is the latest in a line

:24:04.:24:07.

of disclosures about how much the Conservative Party knew about

:24:08.:24:14.

Clarke. Here is a quick reminder. The young activist Elliot Johnson

:24:15.:24:18.

took his own life in September. He left a note saying he had been

:24:19.:24:23.

bullied by Mark Clarke. In August, complaints were sent to CCHQ about

:24:24.:24:27.

Clarke including a memo from party worker which described him as

:24:28.:24:32.

dangerous to young activists and that Clarke was sociopathic. In

:24:33.:24:38.

2014, a young activist sent an e-mail to a party worker called

:24:39.:24:41.

Chris Scott who said that Clarke had tried to damage my reputation and

:24:42.:24:45.

remove meat from politics. And we have been told that back in 2010, a

:24:46.:24:51.

dossier was handed to CCHQ warning of a culture of bullying. A

:24:52.:24:56.

candidate's report was also compiled in the same year when Clarke lost

:24:57.:24:59.

the bid to win the seat of tooting in London. One witness described his

:25:00.:25:04.

extreme excessive behaviour, verging on violence. We now know of another

:25:05.:25:09.

complaint in 2008 to the deputy director of communications.

:25:10.:25:14.

A NACRO temporary spokesman told us tonight that the 2008 allegations

:25:15.:25:20.

have been dealt with properly and confirmed that Mr Jackson made a

:25:21.:25:23.

complaint. They say the party maintained it could not find any

:25:24.:25:28.

evidence of complaint against Mr Clark, only they could not find

:25:29.:25:34.

complaints about his behaviour on his road trip, which vast young

:25:35.:25:40.

activist around the country in the 2015 election. The emergence of the

:25:41.:25:44.

2008 complaint raises one inconvenient question. If even one

:25:45.:25:48.

of his most senior media operatives had complained about Mr Clarke, how

:25:49.:25:53.

did Lord Feldman remain so blissfully ignorant of the problem

:25:54.:25:54.

for so long? It was at 7.06pm that

:25:55.:25:57.

the long-awaited announcement on the future of airport capacity

:25:58.:25:59.

in the south of England came. Well, it's probably Zac Goldsmith,

:26:00.:26:02.

Tory candidate for London mayor. He'd said he'd resign as MP

:26:03.:26:09.

for his seat near Heathrow So Heathrow didn't get

:26:10.:26:12.

a third runway for now. A decision on a runway will,

:26:13.:26:16.

we are told, definitely come next year, and it will definitely be one

:26:17.:26:20.

of Heathrow or Gatwick. They didn't mention the London

:26:21.:26:24.

mayoral election, but it The indecision could be seen

:26:25.:26:26.

as a set-back for a process that was meant to take the politics

:26:27.:26:30.

out of these decisions. We had a three-year-long

:26:31.:26:33.

investigation by the Airports With me now, the man who is chairing

:26:34.:26:35.

the new National Infrastructure Commission, which is meant

:26:36.:26:41.

to advise government Lord Adonis, thanks to coming in.

:26:42.:26:56.

Your reaction to the delay? We are getting there on a firm decision

:26:57.:27:00.

about air Corps capacity in the south of England -- airport

:27:01.:27:04.

capacity. The big thing was that the analysis of Howard Davies was

:27:05.:27:06.

accepted for the need of a new run rate at Gatwick or Heathrow. It made

:27:07.:27:12.

it clear it would be one of those two airports, so no question of

:27:13.:27:14.

Stansted, the estuary or other options. There are further issues to

:27:15.:27:20.

look at with pollution, which Howard Davies said needed more analysis and

:27:21.:27:24.

there will be a firm decision next summer. It's important to understand

:27:25.:27:26.

that Howard Davies said we needed the runway which is vitally

:27:27.:27:32.

important for the economy, needed by 2030. If a decision is made him --

:27:33.:27:39.

made by then, we could see one at Heathrow or Gatwick. It was said it

:27:40.:27:42.

would be wrong to rush the decision. RB Rice sing the decision? -- are we

:27:43.:27:50.

rushing? It is not over rushed, but there has been 25 years of debate on

:27:51.:27:54.

this. I was transport minister in the last government and we did not

:27:55.:27:57.

rush to take the decision either. You would Transport Secretary and it

:27:58.:28:02.

was your policy, which was to build a runway at Heathrow -- you were.

:28:03.:28:05.

The politicians have not done brilliantly at this. We took the

:28:06.:28:08.

decision at the end of the government and we had ten years and

:28:09.:28:11.

we could have moved on. But we are getting there. On your point about

:28:12.:28:15.

the independent commission process, we would not be where we are today

:28:16.:28:19.

without the work of Howard Davies and his colleagues, and it looks

:28:20.:28:22.

like we are set for a decision. There are other two viable options,

:28:23.:28:27.

next year, it will be Heathrow or Gatwick. I admire your optimism, but

:28:28.:28:31.

this was the first test for the commission structure. The commission

:28:32.:28:35.

look at it and advised and the government can have six months to

:28:36.:28:38.

think about it and then they come to a decision, yes or no, and we have

:28:39.:28:45.

indecision. Are you denying politics is driving the delay on this? I

:28:46.:28:50.

couldn't possibly comment on why next May is a bridge to overcome.

:28:51.:28:55.

They have taken a year over six months, and in the context of 25

:28:56.:28:59.

years, it doesn't matter a great deal. Provided a decision is taken.

:29:00.:29:03.

Because as Howard Davies said, we need the run by by 2030. -- the

:29:04.:29:12.

runway. It is Yes, Minister, we have had an enquiry and the result is to

:29:13.:29:15.

have an enquiry. If it was like that, there would be no commitment.

:29:16.:29:20.

It isn't like that. The decision has taken some time, but the government

:29:21.:29:24.

did say today that it accepts the case for a new runway in the

:29:25.:29:27.

south-east of England which is a controversial proposition and it

:29:28.:29:30.

says it must be Heathrow or Gatwick and now it needs to decide. Can I be

:29:31.:29:34.

clear, if there is not a clear decision next summer, then the

:29:35.:29:39.

commission process, the process by which you have a commission and then

:29:40.:29:42.

politicians decide, that process will have failed and he would not

:29:43.:29:46.

want to be running the National Infrastructure Commission?

:29:47.:29:50.

It would not be a great advert for this process but what the government

:29:51.:29:56.

has done today is a perfectly sensible step forward, to narrow

:29:57.:30:02.

down, as Howard Davies did, the options for Heathrow and Gatwick and

:30:03.:30:10.

look further. Sorry, but had anybody thought we were looking at any other

:30:11.:30:17.

options? The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, said we should still be

:30:18.:30:22.

looking at the estuary. A good part of the work was looking at a

:30:23.:30:26.

completely new airport in the estuary or expanding Stansted and

:30:27.:30:32.

you recommended against those and by narrowing the options to Heathrow

:30:33.:30:37.

and Gatwick... I really thought we really had narrowed it down to

:30:38.:30:43.

Heathrow or Gatwick. I can assure you, it would have been perfectly

:30:44.:30:48.

possible to take no decision. You did back Heathrow as Transport

:30:49.:30:55.

Secretary. Do you support Heathrow? Howard Davies came up with that and

:30:56.:30:58.

that was her personal view, so you support Heathrow? Let us be clear,

:30:59.:31:06.

as chairman of the commission, we're not playing any role in this because

:31:07.:31:10.

Howard Davies has done the review. But I think his report is

:31:11.:31:14.

persuasive, in terms of the massive gains to the economy we will have

:31:15.:31:19.

from a new runway, over ?100 million in terms of economic output and

:31:20.:31:25.

hundreds of thousands of jobs and Heathrow is our most important port

:31:26.:31:30.

in the country in terms of the value of the trade that comes through so

:31:31.:31:34.

this is deadly serious for the future of the country and I do

:31:35.:31:38.

support it but equally, what Howard said was it different recommendation

:31:39.:31:43.

to Heathrow to the one I put forward. Much tougher conditions

:31:44.:31:49.

insurance of pollution, in terms of noise control and entrance of public

:31:50.:31:52.

transport access and the proposal he put forward is one that can command

:31:53.:31:57.

much wider consent than the one we put forward but he says there is a

:31:58.:32:03.

plausible case for Gatwick and that debate will rumble on for a few more

:32:04.:32:09.

months. Not years. Flood defences, I think when the commission was

:32:10.:32:13.

launched, flood defences were mentioned in the list of things in

:32:14.:32:18.

the bag and whilst in Cumbria the Prime Minister said when you have a

:32:19.:32:22.

flood but ask, are we spending enough? Is that high on the entry?

:32:23.:32:28.

People say we are short of what we should be spending, we should be

:32:29.:32:33.

spending a quantum more? As we have seen over the last week, we have to

:32:34.:32:38.

look intensively at improving flood defences and it has only been going

:32:39.:32:42.

for a few weeks so I will not be able to offer instant relief in

:32:43.:32:46.

Cumbria and places dreadfully affected. But it is in our remit and

:32:47.:32:51.

something we will be looking at because it is urgent for the

:32:52.:32:52.

country. Thank you very much indeed. Tomorrow is deadline day

:32:53.:32:55.

for the delegates from more than 100 nations trying to hammer out a deal

:32:56.:33:00.

on tackling climate change Negotiations are expected to run

:33:01.:33:02.

through the night as they strive to agree a plan which is palatable

:33:03.:33:07.

for countries both rich and poor. But we don't need to wait

:33:08.:33:10.

for the outcome to know that one particular place is already

:33:11.:33:13.

being affected by climate change. Mongolia's temperature has already

:33:14.:33:15.

risen by two degrees celsius, and scientists in the landlocked

:33:16.:33:17.

country are warning it could heat up by another four degrees by 2080

:33:18.:33:20.

unless urgent action is taken. The country is scarred

:33:21.:33:23.

by desertification, and it's having a devastating impact on both nomadic

:33:24.:33:25.

herders and the country's wildlife. And sadly, the number of snow

:33:26.:33:27.

leopards is in rapid decline as their natural habitat

:33:28.:33:30.

is encroached upon more and more. Film makers William Davies

:33:31.:33:36.

and Hereward Holland joined a World Wildlife Fund expedition

:33:37.:33:38.

in the Altai-Sayan mountain range in the west of the country,

:33:39.:33:40.

to see what can be done to protect and conserve this iconic

:33:41.:33:44.

and elusive animal. That film was made by William Davis

:33:45.:41:12.

and Hereford Holland. That's it for tonight,

:41:13.:41:18.

Kirsty will be here tomorrow.

:41:19.:41:21.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS