16/12/2015 Newsnight


16/12/2015

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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Tonight, six months after Newsnight revealed Yemeni civilians could have

:00:00.:00:07.

been killed by British weapons sold to Saudi Arabia -

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the UK Government faces possible legal action.

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The UK has a very clear legal regime.

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That legal regime says the UK won't provide licenses for arms

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exports if there is a clear risk there may be violations

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Newsnight has the full story, including how the Foreign

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Secretary's interview on this programme could form

:00:33.:00:34.

And we'll speak to the former Business Secretary,

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who, while in government tried to stop British weapons

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The US Federal Reserve hikes interests for the first time

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We'll ask whether it could be too soon for the global economy.

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Our series on the faces of the migrant crisis continues.

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We find the Syrian father and son tripped up by

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When you watch this, how do you feel? Of course, I am very angry. I

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feel very angry. There is a very real prospect

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of the Government being taken to court over sales of weapons

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to Saudi Arabia which is leading a coalition in Yemen against rebel

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fighters in a conflict which has cost almost 6,000 lives,

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among them many civilians. The issue is whether these weapons,

:01:31.:01:34.

in particular laser guided bombs, have been involved in civilian

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deaths, a question that arose in a Newsnight interview

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with the Foreign Secretary. Now Lawyers for Campaign Against

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the Arms Trade says the UK Government is in breach of UK,

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European and International law. A separate legal opinion,

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prepared for Amnesty International, and seen by Newsnight,

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says the UK is in breach of its own legislation,

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including the Arms Trade Treaty, You may find some images

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in this film distressing. Yemen has been under almost constant

:02:03.:02:15.

bombardment since March. A coalition led by Saudi Arabia has

:02:16.:02:19.

been trying to defeat a rebel army. Both sides have been

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accused of war crimes. Now lawyers say Britain could be

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breaking the law for selling the bombs that the

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Saudis are dropping. On the night of July 24th,

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coalition warplanes repeatedly struck a residential compound

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in the port city of Mokha. At least 65 civilians were killed,

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according to human rights watch, who collected this footage

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and visited the site The group says the compound

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was merely a column to away The strike on Mokha is one of many

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incidents where civilians have been targeted in Saudi led air strikes.

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We saw remains of water bottling site that had been struck. A teenage

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boy was killed. The Saudi led campaign has the backing of the UN

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security council, which gives it legitimacy under international law.

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The UK supports the coalition and, along with the United States and

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others, has been supplying weapons used in the conflict. Attacks

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directed against civilians awesomely and objects constitute grave

:04:18.:04:21.

violations of international, humanitarian law. The UK has a very

:04:22.:04:29.

clearly gory shoe. That regime says the UK will not provide licenses for

:04:30.:04:38.

armed exports. -- Berry clear legal regime. The facts on the ground of

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what is happening in Yemen suggest there is that clear risk. The

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Government has continued to grant export licences for arms sales to

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Saudi Arabia for use in Yemen. Lawyers for the group campaigning

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against the Arms trade told us they will take the Government to court

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unless it stops. From the very beginning, the response by the

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British government has been to say they have received repeated

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assurances from the Saudis that British weapons are being used in

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accordance with international law. Privately, I have been told the

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Government lawyers and officials are very worried indeed about the

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possibility of a legal challenge. At issue is whether the UK has done

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enough to satisfy itself that British weapons are not being used

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to commit war crimes. That is a requirement under the arms trade

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Treaty which David Cameron champion Tim came into force last year. A key

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piece of evidence cited by the lawyers came in an interview on

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Newsnight with the Foreign Secretary. The Saudis deny there

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have been any breaches of international humanitarian law. That

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denial alone is not enough. We need to seek proper investigations. That

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admission is significant say authors of the separate legal opinion

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prepared by Amnesty International. The British government has confirmed

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it is aware of the allegations that the violations of international law

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are being committed on the ground in Yemen. It is also aware that the

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assurances being given by the Saudi authorities are perhaps not

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watertight. That heightens the degree of scrutiny be ought to be

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applying in the determination of whether any new weapons should be

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supplied. The 90 page legal opinion concludes: on the basis of the

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evidence available to ask any authorisation by the UK the transfer

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of weapons or other items to Saudi Arabia in circumstances where such

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weapons are capable of being used in the conflict in Yemen would

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constitute a breach by the UK of its obligations under domestic, European

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and international law. The Saudis have consistently denied

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targeting civilians. They point out their campaign comes at the request

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of Yemen's internationally recognised government against a

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rebel force, who themselves stand accused of violating the rules of

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war. Britain is not supplying weapons to the Huthis. A spokesman

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told us... Yemen is in the grip of one of the

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world's worst crises. Apart from the Blom -- the bombing, public aid by

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coalition forces has caused acute shortages. A shaky ceasefire in

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place since yesterday has already been violated. The Government should

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use its influence to make sure the ceasefire holds. We have

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considerable influence with the Saudi regime and the coalition.

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Making sure the ceasefire holds is the best way of stopping the

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apparent division in government policy. On the one hand blockading

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the ports, which is what the defence and foreign affairs are trying to

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do. The humanitarian and development wing in the British government is

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trying to get food, medicine and fuel in through the same ports. The

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Arms trade Treaty was supposed to make civilians save her in war

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zones. It was backed enthusiastically by the British

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government. The first test may be in Yemen, concerning the use of British

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weapons. We did ask the Saudi government onto the programme

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tonight but that request was declined.

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Joining me now in the studio is the former Business Secretary Sir

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Vince Cable, and from Geneva, Sir William Patey, the former UK

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Good evening used by the lawyers are clear risk.

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As Business Secretary can you have real concerns about the guided laser

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bombs. What did you do about it? Let me just go back a little bit. Very

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few arms contracts for Saudi Arabia and anywhere else. By me or

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questioned by ministers. There is a clear framework of law. There are

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relatively few cases that are actually very controversial. I do

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challenge and indeed blocked this particular sale of basically bombs

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for the aircraft. Largely because of a report that I had heard about

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for the aircraft. Largely because of the time which was uncorroborated

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for the aircraft. Largely because of but seemed plausible about bombing

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of hospitals. I challenge that. had a detailed set of conversations

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with government during the had a detailed set of conversations

:10:03.:10:07.

campaign. We're not in our offices. I was assured eventually, by the

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Defence Secretary, who went this in some detail, that British

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embedded personnel this in some detail, that British

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and we have people who are very closely involved with the

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and we have people who are very the Saudi air force activities on

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the same basis the Saudi air force activities on

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currently have. I was satisfied that extra measures were being put into

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place. The aircraft were on the runway, won't they? I was making

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myself unpopular by holding it up. Eventually I was given very clear

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assurances there would be proper oversight. That oversight committee

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assurances, did you take legal advice? I had legal advice within my

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department. There are essentially three government departments

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department. There are essentially involved. We are all given official

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and legal advice from you make involved. We are all given official

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decisions. You have thought this advice was watertight. Ta me your

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honest reaction? I was having to make a judgment on the basis of good

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faith. -- tell me. We were given additional safeguards.

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faith. -- tell me. We were given heard today that somehow civilian

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targets are heard today that somehow civilian

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bombing raids. If heard today that somehow civilian

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had oversight, this heard today that somehow civilian

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lot of people reporting with heard today that somehow civilian

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bottling plant and so forth, they are being bombed. Whether

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bottling plant and so forth, they that is with American weaponry, we

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do not know. In your view is it enough to go ahead? This is a legal

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question for the courts. I was given assurances we had sufficient

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oversight of the bombing activity to make sure that international

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humanitarian law would not be compromised. Sir William, the report

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tonight comes from highly respected lawyers, who believe the British

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government could be in breach of British European

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government could be in breach of law by supplying these particular

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weapons to Saudi Arabia. What is your response? I am not a lawyer but

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I imagine there is some element of deliberate targeting that needs to

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be there. I agree with Vince Cable. I cannot see why the Saudis would

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deliberately target civilians will still be contrary to what they're

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trying to in Yemen. There is a Security Council resolution. The

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Huthis are the aggressors, if you like. They are trying to push that

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back. I was ambassador in Afghanistan and Iraq. I know there

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was no deliberate targeting of civilians. You cannot guarantee that

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in a complex situation like Yemen, Iraq all Syria, civilians might not

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accidentally be hit. I imagine the legal case with hinge on deliberate

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targeting. I cannot see why the Saudis would deliberately target

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civilians. These bombs are meant to be hugely accurate. It is not as if

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it would be collateral damage, would it? We have seen mistakes occur.

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Americans have made mistakes in Iraq and Syria. It is possible that

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mistakes were made. The Saudis are trying to support the legitimate

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government in Yemen, trying to re-establish some sort of control

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and promote a political sentiment. Targeting civilians would have no

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part in that I would be foolish. Do you think the Saudis are as careful

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in pursuit of their goals? I do not see why they would be less careful.

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Britain has a very close relationship with Saudi Arabia and

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should be in a position to advise and to work with them. I suspect the

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British governor will be talking to the Saudis and seeking the

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reassurances of the measures, they have put in place. -- the British

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government. I have seen statements about measures that are in place to

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try to ensure there are no civilian casualties. I suppose there will be

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close scrutiny of what these measures are. These are civilian

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casualties in hospitals and they do turn out to be as a result of

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British weapons being dropped, would you be comfortable with that?

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Well, if they were deliberately targeted it would be unacceptable.

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That would be the issue. And if they were attributable to Saudi as

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strikes and two British equipment. Let me put that to Vince Cable.

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Would you make that distinction when you see what has actually been

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happening in Yemen, between deliberate targeting and collateral

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damage, the line between them, are you comfortable with that? As Sir

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William Patey said, there is a difficult balance to be struck. I

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would have thought that prudent military activity would not just be

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avoiding deliberate targeting, it would be taking all proper effort to

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avoid collateral civilian damage. They should be doing more than just

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not targeting. Given how central to the Saudis' Arsenal are British

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bombs and how important they are to our export trade... It is more than

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just bombs, it is a vast amount of equipment. Yes. Do you think Britain

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imposes the same standards with the Saudis as they do with other

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countries? I think there is growing discomfort that we are very highly

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dependent on Saudi Arabia in a variety of areas, not just on the

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supply of equipment, but for regional security, and issues around

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human rights which Michael Gove gave vent to a few weeks ago. I think

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even within this Conservative government you have ministers who

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think, actually we are being over compromised by having this

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overdependence. Any relationship has to be in balance. Did you have

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worries or discomfort over the nature of the relationship and how

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it was conducted when you were Business Secretary, and indeed

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before? Well, I had no problem with us exporting kit to Saudi Arabia. I

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was a champion of British manufacturing industry and this was

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part of it. I did worry that we were becoming overdependent in a variety

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of different ways and it was inhibiting our ability to say what

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needed to be said. And so in terms of saying what needs to be said, do

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you think now there should be an independent inquiry at least, given

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the nature of the allegations, and given the seniority of the lawyers

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that are making them? Well, now presumably there will be a legal

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process, and that has to happen. There is a very good select

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committee in the House of Commons which is set up specifically to

:17:40.:17:42.

pursue issues around arms export licensing. I think they are the

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appropriate body to look at this. In that film, Ian Gatehouse said his

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understanding was that government lawyers are very uncomfortable about

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this. Do you think the government is in some discomfort? I do not know. I

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was there seven months ago. It was an own comfortable subject at the

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time. But a vast amount more is now known. At that stage we only had

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some fragmentary reports. Janet Yellen has learned her place in US

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history by announcing the first hike in rates in almost a decade. The

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impact might be more psychological than anything else. She said it

:18:22.:18:25.

reflected the confidence of the committee that the economy would

:18:26.:18:31.

continue to strengthen. She cited lower-than-expected inflation

:18:32.:18:33.

figures among other factors for the decision.

:18:34.:18:40.

The financial crisis of the late 2000s was centred on American banks.

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Today, the US passed a milestone in recovery. The Federal Reserve,

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America's central bank, raised interest rates for the first time

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since 2006. It is a first small step back to normal. So,. The recent

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history of US interest rates. When the line is low, rates are low. This

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means that banks can borrow cheaply overnight. That gets passed on into

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the real economy. So, in the early 1980s, the Fed raised these

:19:15.:19:19.

borrowing costs, taking the heat out of the economy and cutting

:19:20.:19:22.

inflation. Conversely, rates got slashed as the financial crisis

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unfolded. They went down to historic low rates for an unprecedented long

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time. So why are they being raised now? The Fed only worries about two

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big things. First of all come US inflation, which has been very low,

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but it has just risen to about 2% on the Fed's preferred measure. They

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are starting to worry about that. The second thing is unemployment. It

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was at about 10% back in 2010. Now it is just 5%. So the Fed feels that

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all things considered it is now safe to start withdrawing the stimulus

:19:58.:20:00.

which has been keeping the US economy going. If we keep interest

:20:01.:20:04.

rates down for too long, the pressures on the economy will

:20:05.:20:09.

continue to build up. So we will get a bigger build-up in inflationary

:20:10.:20:12.

pressures and possible financial bubbles. Both of those things could

:20:13.:20:17.

cause interest rates to rise more sharply in the future. So if the Fed

:20:18.:20:21.

wants to raise interest rates in a gradual fashion, it must start

:20:22.:20:25.

sooner rather than later. What really matters now is how fast the

:20:26.:20:28.

Fed raises rates and what the market expects. The Fed gets its

:20:29.:20:34.

rate-setting committee to predict how they think rates will rise. So

:20:35.:20:39.

each committee member puts dot showing how high they expect rates

:20:40.:20:42.

to be at the end of each year. So you can see they all expect rates to

:20:43.:20:46.

rise from this year to next and so on. Note two things. First of all

:20:47.:20:52.

come these rate rises are actually very slow. This is a gradual

:20:53.:20:57.

phasing, about half the pace of the last round of Fed hikes. Secondly,

:20:58.:21:02.

this last column is their long-term estimate. They all crowd around

:21:03.:21:09.

3.5%. And that is really low, about 1.5% off the long run Fed average.

:21:10.:21:16.

US monetary policy will be followed very widely. Higher interest rates

:21:17.:21:21.

encourage investors to pull out of riskier sectors and markets across

:21:22.:21:25.

the world. And those of us in countries which are a little way

:21:26.:21:27.

behind should watch particularly carefully. We have to return to

:21:28.:21:30.

normal as well. I'm joined now by Professor Danny

:21:31.:21:31.

Blanchflower, former member of the Bank of England's

:21:32.:21:34.

own rate-setting Monetary Policy Committee, and Gillian Tett,

:21:35.:21:37.

US Managing Editor of First of all, Danny Blanchflower,

:21:38.:21:48.

they were unanimous about this - other conditions right for a rate

:21:49.:21:55.

rise? Well, the surprise was that they actually were unanimous. But

:21:56.:21:57.

rise? Well, the surprise was that you look at the remake to which the

:21:58.:22:00.

Fed has, with the worries about inflation

:22:01.:22:07.

Fed has, with the worries about rates right now. Big deal is, the

:22:08.:22:09.

Fed is using its forecast and saying, we think

:22:10.:22:20.

Fed is using its forecast and really believe them. So why have

:22:21.:22:24.

they done it then? There is not much difference from a

:22:25.:22:27.

they done it then? There is not much ago? I would say it is different

:22:28.:22:28.

they done it then? There is not much the sense that the market

:22:29.:22:31.

expectation in September was actually that they were not going to

:22:32.:22:34.

go up. The market was expecting them to go now, so the surprise would

:22:35.:22:37.

have been if they hadn't. to go now, so the surprise would

:22:38.:22:43.

pushed themselves into this move. Is this a turning point, do you think?

:22:44.:22:50.

I think it is a very important moment, because they are desperate

:22:51.:22:54.

to show that they can get back to a world where monetary policy begins

:22:55.:22:58.

to look a bit more normal, or at least a bit less completely weird.

:22:59.:23:04.

Over the last five years we have become used to this world where

:23:05.:23:08.

weirdness seems normal. We have had zero rates and incredible

:23:09.:23:12.

distortions in the markets which everybody is ignoring because they

:23:13.:23:15.

have got used to it so much. If the Fed wants to

:23:16.:23:18.

have got used to it so much. If the psychological block that we have to

:23:19.:23:18.

stop living in this weird world and psychological block that we have to

:23:19.:23:28.

money has a price... So actually it will not make

:23:29.:23:30.

money has a price... So actually it the economy? The crucial question

:23:31.:23:34.

now is what happens next. Firstly, can they actually implement this

:23:35.:23:36.

so-called rate rise? can they actually implement this

:23:37.:23:40.

money markets are so distorted, it can they actually implement this

:23:41.:23:43.

is not clear they can actually get the normal levers to work.

:23:44.:23:47.

is not clear they can actually get what are they going to do with this

:23:48.:23:49.

massively bloated Fed balance sheet they now have, four times bigger

:23:50.:23:54.

than it was before 2008? Can it go back on a diet and slim down?

:23:55.:23:58.

Question lots of us be asking over Christmas. Thirdly, how quickly is

:23:59.:24:04.

it actually turn followed today 's supposed rise by more rises, is it a

:24:05.:24:12.

one-off? This whole impact which it is going to have, with better

:24:13.:24:17.

interests in America than in the emerging markets, people are going

:24:18.:24:21.

to be taking their money out of those markets, India, and putting it

:24:22.:24:27.

back in America? Gillian is right about the risks, but actually there

:24:28.:24:34.

have been 28 cases in the last seven years where central banks have

:24:35.:24:37.

raised rates, and in all cases, they have actually had to cut them later.

:24:38.:24:42.

That is a worry. And right now, this is going to have an effect on

:24:43.:24:46.

emerging markets, on corporate bond yields, the manufacturing sector

:24:47.:24:50.

will be impacted by the rise in the dollar. So the worry is actually,

:24:51.:24:54.

this does not work at all and what we will see down the road is not

:24:55.:25:00.

just a return fire a cut but maybe even a cut to negative, which is

:25:01.:25:03.

what we have seen at the ECB, the Swiss central bank and other places.

:25:04.:25:10.

So if this does not work, we are in trouble. American homeowners,

:25:11.:25:15.

Gillian Tett, have been used to this cheap money. Even a small rise like

:25:16.:25:20.

this could put some of them, who are borrowing to the hilt, in trouble?

:25:21.:25:26.

Absolutely. Banks spoke to me the other day and said,,, if you are

:25:27.:25:30.

thinking about getting a mortgage, get it now. But you have to keep it

:25:31.:25:34.

in proportion. This is still a very small hike. In some ways it is long

:25:35.:25:38.

overdue I would say because people have got used to alter cheap money.

:25:39.:25:44.

But the big question, as Danny says, is how the rest of the world now

:25:45.:25:48.

reacts. It is not just the emerging markets, it is also the fact that

:25:49.:25:52.

you could be seeing the European central bank embarking on more news

:25:53.:25:55.

and in in the coming months which could create a real potential for

:25:56.:25:59.

knock-on effects in the foreign exchange markets. -- more loosening

:26:00.:26:06.

in the coming months. And what happens in Britain? In Britain they

:26:07.:26:10.

will have to sit for a very long time, as I have been saying for

:26:11.:26:15.

seven years, because in the UK there is so many people on variable rate

:26:16.:26:19.

mortgages. As soon as you start to raise rates it hurts people's

:26:20.:26:23.

ability to pay and it hurts house prices and it hurts the banks. So

:26:24.:26:26.

the Bank of England is to sit pat for a long time. Is there a problem

:26:27.:26:32.

being addict to two cheap money? Well, clearly there is. It caused

:26:33.:26:37.

all kinds of distortions. But the problem is that the shock we have is

:26:38.:26:42.

so much greater, so as soon as you try to resolve it by a rate rise,

:26:43.:26:45.

there are all kinds of crazy things which go on. The reason is, we did

:26:46.:26:49.

not really have a plan on the way in. It was unique times. We voted

:26:50.:26:54.

for quantitative easing, as I did. It was very scary. You do not know

:26:55.:27:00.

the way out, either, so, they are having to follow the data and cross

:27:01.:27:05.

their fingers and hope. We are really there, crossing fingers and

:27:06.:27:06.

hoping economics. David Cameron has told the commons

:27:07.:27:08.

that the government has met its target to resettle one

:27:09.:27:12.

thousand Syrian refugees by the end of the year - a year when some

:27:13.:27:15.

of the most visceral and memorable images on our screens

:27:16.:27:18.

and in newspapers have been From new born babies to great

:27:19.:27:20.

grandparents fleeing, there have been extraordinary scenes

:27:21.:27:24.

and heartbreaking stories. Tonight we have the third and final

:27:25.:27:26.

film in Katie Razzall's series When you watch this,

:27:27.:27:29.

how do you feel? Osama and his young son Zaid brought

:27:30.:27:54.

down by a camerawoman's foot. Do you think it was

:27:55.:28:06.

an accident or on purpose? When you say he has been

:28:07.:28:10.

injured, is it more The Hungarian camerawoman

:28:11.:28:59.

who tripped them appeared to symbolise Hungary's

:29:00.:29:32.

hostility to migrants. She apologised, saying

:29:33.:29:34.

she had acted in self-defence. But Osama was oblivious

:29:35.:29:37.

to the furore. In what looks on the surface

:29:38.:29:43.

like a fairy tale ending for them, Osama and his two sons

:29:44.:29:59.

are now in Spain. Global outrage led to a job offer

:30:00.:30:02.

for the Syrian football coach from a Spanish football club -

:30:03.:30:05.

and an apartment. When you first arrived

:30:06.:30:09.

in Spain, what struck you? It's the first time -

:30:10.:31:33.

I have been talking to you for a long time,

:31:34.:31:35.

it is the first time you have smiled There are reasons to smile,

:31:36.:31:39.

but it is not that simple. Osama's wife and two

:31:40.:31:48.

other children are stuck in Turkey, to where

:31:49.:31:51.

the family first fled. Life has thrown many

:31:52.:31:53.

hazards their way. They come from a town in north-east

:31:54.:31:56.

Syria which was under Assad attack Britain has recently

:31:57.:31:59.

begun air strikes against What do you think of what's

:32:00.:32:29.

happening now in the Syrian I think that it is very

:32:30.:32:34.

bad, the war in Syria. War drove the exodus

:32:35.:33:09.

to Europe, and this migrant's I read an interview

:33:10.:33:11.

with you from before where you said, Now, a few months on,

:33:12.:33:19.

do you feel you could forgive her, Of course I think yes, because I now

:33:20.:33:25.

forgive this accident. And I am looking for

:33:26.:33:37.

the future of my family For now, though, football has

:33:38.:33:41.

helped him maintain hope. His flight from Syria

:33:42.:34:03.

with his youngest child in his arms caught the world's attention

:34:04.:34:06.

for all the wrong reasons. What nobody knew, though,

:34:07.:34:09.

was that as well as Zaid, Osama was carrying a very

:34:10.:34:12.

precious possession. When I look at you

:34:13.:34:15.

there, you are not carrying very much of course

:34:16.:34:18.

because you have walk. Some T-shirts for

:34:19.:34:21.

Zaid, and some food. It is proof you really

:34:22.:34:27.

like football. Some of the most haunting images

:34:28.:34:47.

of the refugee crisis have And one photographer

:34:48.:34:57.

above all others has given us defining pictures of conflict over

:34:58.:35:00.

the past sixty years. Don McCullin turned eighty last

:35:01.:35:03.

month and spent his birthday in Iraq, under fire as he captured

:35:04.:35:07.

on camera, the retaking the town of Baiji from so called IS by Iraqi

:35:08.:35:10.

fighters.He has photographed everything from the building

:35:11.:35:15.

of the Berlin Wall, to Vietnam to the destruction of Palmyra,

:35:16.:35:18.

but also series of beautiful landscapes around the world and has

:35:19.:35:21.

a new exhibition and book to celebrate his

:35:22.:35:24.

extraordinary body of work. Evan went to meet him

:35:25.:35:28.

and asked him whether his view I feel slightly defeated by the work

:35:29.:35:31.

I have done in the past. I thought, I used to

:35:32.:35:36.

get right up close to things and show people how terrible

:35:37.:35:40.

it was to see a child starving to death, or a man with half his jaw

:35:41.:35:43.

missing or legs missing. I thought, I'm going

:35:44.:35:49.

to make sure that people look at my photographs

:35:50.:35:51.

and they understand what the real I'm thinking that may have changed

:35:52.:35:54.

society but that hasn't really. I have almost convinced myself that

:35:55.:36:00.

what I have done in the past hasn't We're still looking at appalling

:36:01.:36:13.

atrocities round the world. As quick as one war

:36:14.:36:16.

has gone, another is in the waiting to come and repeat

:36:17.:36:20.

itself all over again. We have seen the picture of the boy

:36:21.:36:26.

washed up on the beach in Turkey. It really did seem to demonstrate

:36:27.:36:32.

the power of a photograph, The extraordinary thing

:36:33.:36:35.

about the photograph, without being crude,

:36:36.:36:41.

it was without blood. It was the sheer dangling legs

:36:42.:36:44.

of that three-year-old It had another way of

:36:45.:36:49.

presenting the tragedy to us. It changed the thinking

:36:50.:36:55.

of people about migration, Tell me what the rules

:36:56.:37:01.

are for your profession? Obviously you are going in,

:37:02.:37:10.

taking photographs of people in very vulnerable and

:37:11.:37:16.

unpleasant situations. What are the rules of your

:37:17.:37:21.

engagement with those people? Why would you expect immunity

:37:22.:37:24.

from Downing Street? You don't have the right

:37:25.:37:41.

in the second place to take people's photographs, to lean over them

:37:42.:37:45.

when they are dying or starving. Anyway, I have a huge

:37:46.:37:47.

conscience about what I did in the past because I'm alive,

:37:48.:37:49.

I'm healthy, and I knew that some I walked into a school one

:37:50.:37:53.

day and found 800 dying I know many of the children

:37:54.:37:57.

wouldn't have survived two or three days after I left

:37:58.:38:02.

that establishment. I can still talk about it

:38:03.:38:05.

with clarity because I will One of your most

:38:06.:38:10.

famous photos is the American Marine in Vietnam

:38:11.:38:14.

with a shell-shocked face. That is actually the cover

:38:15.:38:19.

of the book of your photos. Have you been able to

:38:20.:38:25.

stay in touch with him? Does he know his photo has

:38:26.:38:33.

reached such prominence? I only knew him for

:38:34.:38:37.

the moment I took five But he was a soldier,

:38:38.:38:40.

he was a human being. But, compared with the civilian

:38:41.:38:43.

casualties that bear the brunt of war these days, who nobody helps,

:38:44.:38:49.

nobody cares about, they are always the last to be informed that tragedy

:38:50.:38:52.

is coming to destroy their homes That soldier would have

:38:53.:38:57.

been taken care of by My biggest fear

:38:58.:39:02.

about that photograph I go to get the

:39:03.:39:05.

information and bring Basically, I am really

:39:06.:39:13.

the carrier pigeon. The public, if we

:39:14.:39:20.

are honest, and I'm guessing this because I see

:39:21.:39:22.

what the public buys They are more interested in looking

:39:23.:39:24.

at pictures of life victors This is my biggest

:39:25.:39:33.

contention in life. We show more interest,

:39:34.:39:40.

as you isely said, the victors, This narcissism that has

:39:41.:39:46.

crept into our society. I suppose you have to blame

:39:47.:39:54.

the proprietors who sell They really do not need to be

:39:55.:39:57.

trading in tragedy in their lives. They would much prefer

:39:58.:40:05.

to make money and all make it sanitised and jolly

:40:06.:40:11.

and what a wonderful world Which is a totally

:40:12.:40:14.

false picture, really. Are you someone who feels the world

:40:15.:40:16.

is empowered by digital technology and the smartphone

:40:17.:40:19.

that takes pictures? There is more communication

:40:20.:40:22.

than we have ever dreamed of. Are we being fooled

:40:23.:40:25.

by what we are seeing and receiving? Are we on the right

:40:26.:40:34.

kind of wavelengths? I'm not saying this because I feel

:40:35.:40:38.

my photographic work has failed, where it should have

:40:39.:40:44.

gone, because I'm still holding out. Finally tonight, you can't

:40:45.:40:50.

have missed the fact that the new Star Wars movie

:40:51.:40:57.

is premiering tonight - what with the rolling news coverage

:40:58.:41:00.

and days of free publicity. Thank goodness we've managed

:41:01.:41:02.

to avoid all that here.

:41:03.:41:06.

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