25/01/2016 Newsnight


25/01/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis. Featuring the shadow chancellor on Google's tax arrangements.


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Transcript


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Can we really blame Google for not paying more tax?

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We have low taxes in Britain, but those taxes are paid. This never

:00:15.:00:21.

happened when there was a Labour Government in office, so you hear

:00:22.:00:23.

them complaining about it, but they should have done something when they

:00:24.:00:28.

were in office. Who's got it right? We speak live to the Shadow

:00:29.:00:30.

Chancellor, John McDonnell. Take your eyes off Trump and look

:00:31.:00:35.

at the Democrats for a moment - what once seemed like an easy race

:00:36.:00:38.

for Hillary Clinton is now looking We speak to one of her closest

:00:39.:00:41.

allies about her battle There are plenty of male politicians

:00:42.:00:48.

who have outright scandals that happened to them and they overcome

:00:49.:00:51.

them. So I see some of this through a gender lens, I can't help it.

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We ask some of those experiencing it.

:00:55.:01:01.

We don't pluck money off trees like they think. You have people back

:01:02.:01:08.

home calling you and asking you for money. You are in London, you are

:01:09.:01:12.

rich. They should come and see some of the jobs we are doing.

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Boris Johnson wrote today - "...blame a shark for eating seals.

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It is the nature of the beast and it's the law."

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He was talking about Google and its tax bill.

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His point was simple: How absurd to blame a company for attempting

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to minimise the amount it pays out to the Government,

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when it lies at the very root of what any finance director

:01:51.:01:53.

So tonight, we step back from one company and one bill and ask if that

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Is it immoral to use a loophole to your company's advantage?

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And what should this whole debate tell us about our attitude

:02:04.:02:08.

to taxation and the message our legislators send out

:02:09.:02:10.

In a moment we'll talk to Labour's Shadow Chancellor,

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John Mcdonnell, who called the Google settlement of ?130

:02:15.:02:16.

million pounds "relatively insignifcant".

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If you look closely enough and have the right equipment, you can even

:02:20.:02:30.

see the apparently tiny sums that multinational corporations pay in UK

:02:31.:02:31.

tax. Under the political microscope

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today, the ?130 million settlement Google has paid in back taxes

:02:34.:02:37.

in a deal with Her Majesty's Revenue According to the Shadow Chancellor,

:02:38.:02:40.

this is a derisory sum. The Chancellor has managed to create

:02:41.:02:46.

an unlikely alliance between myself, the Sun newspaper, the Mayor

:02:47.:02:50.

of London and, according to reports, All of us think that this deal is

:02:51.:03:04.

not the "major success" the Chancellor claimed at the weekend.

:03:05.:03:07.

a lab that fights against malaria, rejected Labour's analysis.

:03:08.:03:12.

I think it's good news is that we are collecting tax

:03:13.:03:14.

That's thanks to the action that this

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Government has taken to make sure that yes,

:03:20.:03:22.

we have low taxes in Britain, but those taxes are paid.

:03:23.:03:24.

But is the real problem that our tax system hasn't kept pace

:03:25.:03:27.

According to the House of Lords economic affairs committee,

:03:28.:03:32.

corporation tax in a given country is now largely voluntary

:03:33.:03:34.

And that is particularly true of high-tech

:03:35.:03:41.

Most of its value is created by intangibles.

:03:42.:03:45.

And that is something the current tax

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Google, for example, uses a manoeuvre known as the double

:03:52.:03:56.

Irish, shifting profits between Ireland,

:03:57.:03:58.

with low corporate rates of tax, and Bermuda, with no corporate

:03:59.:04:01.

The problem for nation states is, this is all perfectly legal,

:04:02.:04:06.

and as our economies evolve, more and

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more companies will be able to do it.

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What constitutes the correct amount of tax is becoming an elastic

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Google is the symptom, but they're probably not the cause.

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particularly the corporate tax system,

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if we're to protect the tax base for the next 25 years.

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Because even if the executives of a company woke up one day

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and decided out of the goodness of their hearts

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that their corporations should pay vastly more tax,

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well, the people who own those companies

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of perhaps the Labour Party, then they could face

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where the shareholders would accuse them

:04:49.:04:53.

So how might we change the tax system

:04:54.:04:57.

so that companies can't shift their profits and costs

:04:58.:05:00.

Well, one answer is to tax something

:05:01.:05:05.

we will always be able to see where the sales are.

:05:06.:05:12.

So we will be able to link the activity of the company

:05:13.:05:15.

with taxation, something we are not able to do now.

:05:16.:05:24.

The science of getting companies to pay more is far from simple.

:05:25.:05:27.

The twin forces of globalisation and computerisation

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make national boundaries, even in activities as mundane

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as ordering a coffee, buying a book or hailing

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I'm joined by Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell.

:05:36.:05:46.

Thanks for coming in. This payout by Google hasn't impressed you. No.

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Independent assessors have assessed it at about 3%. In comparison with

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that, the corporation tax during this period was between 20% to 30%.

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Other taxpayers, particularly businesses in this country, will be

:06:05.:06:08.

startled and offended. What should it have been then? You go back to

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the corporate tax rate, what should that rate be now? Again, independent

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assessors have said if Google were paying what others were paying

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throughout that period, instead of the 200 million they've paid for ten

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years, on average they'd pay 200 million a year. You can see why

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people across the House, it was all parties today, MPs from all parties

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were expressing their concern. It was described by Boris Johnson

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himself as derisory. The biggest question is whether the current tax

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system itself works. You heard there, the correct amount of tax is

:06:44.:06:47.

an elastic concept. Did you agree that the system is ripe for reform?

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Andrew's announced a review by the Treasury Select Committee today of

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the tax system. We've instituted one for the Labour Party already. I did

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that at my conference speech last September. The system's not working.

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A couple of problems - one, the lack of transpatience yr and openness.

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The Chancellor -- transparency. The Chancellor didn't come to the House

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today. He sent a junior minister. We need complete openness and

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transparency. We need international agreements of country by country

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reporting, so individual countries are reported what their profits are

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country by country. I raised with the minister today, we cannot keep

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on cutting and demoralising the staff at Midnight Mass Iraq. These

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are the -- HMRC. These are the people who collect the taxes.

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Transparency at the heart of this. Labour's plans to plans the books

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will be aggressive, you said at conference, we will force people

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like Starbucks, Amazon, Google to pay their fair share of taxes, what

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does that mean to go after them aggressively? It means we cannot

:07:53.:07:56.

allow deals like this in the future. We must design our tax system so

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it's effective. If anyone owe fends against that we make sure they're

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brought to book. That's the end of the double Irish, the end of

:08:05.:08:07.

loopholes, what would you do with the corporate tax rate? This is what

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I thought George Osborne was supporting, international agreements

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which ensures that we don't have these schemes in place. This scheme

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undermines those very international agreements we're putting forward,

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because it's a one off that sets a precedent. What would you do, you

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use the word "aggressive" in terms of what you would change now, what

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are the loopholes that just vanish under Labour? It's making sure they

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report their activities on the ground. They can't shift profits.

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Where they make them in one country, remember Google made ?1 billion

:08:40.:08:44.

worth of profits in 2014, they then shift those profits and other areas

:08:45.:08:49.

of activity to other countries. Should for example Starbucks be

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taxed on each individual outlet, each of the profits of an individual

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coffee shop, is that what you'd like to see? Part review is to define

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what economic activity is. If the profits are made within a country,

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they should be taxed within that country. We need to do this by

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international agreement, otherwise we'll find that people are using

:09:09.:09:11.

devices to shift their burdens elsewhere and reduce their tax

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burdens overall. Going back to that idea, would you like to see, for

:09:16.:09:18.

example, Starbucks as an individual outlet taxed on profits or would you

:09:19.:09:23.

like to see local authorities refuse planning permission to Starbucks

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until they agree to pay what is right? I think we need, first of

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all, national legislation reform. We need international agreement. So

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it's not down to the individual sanctions of individual authorities.

:09:35.:09:40.

This an early day motion sponsored by Jeremy Corbyn, your leader and

:09:41.:09:45.

signed by you. That's right. Has that changed in your mind? Not at

:09:46.:09:49.

all. We've been campaigning on this for 15, 20 years. We were looking at

:09:50.:09:55.

different devices to raise the publicity around that. That was one

:09:56.:09:58.

of the ideas that was come up with. It's just to raise publicity then,

:09:59.:10:02.

it wasn't serious? It was to ensure that the range of activities on the

:10:03.:10:07.

agenda that we can explore when we go into Government. What about a tax

:10:08.:10:13.

on sales? What about taxing the activity of a company, its revenue

:10:14.:10:18.

or sales? At the moment, the Government defines this taxation

:10:19.:10:21.

based upon economic activity within the country. The problem with the

:10:22.:10:25.

Google settlement - We know it's taxed on profits. Let's be clear,

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what the Government is saying is that it's taxed on economic

:10:30.:10:33.

activity. They would not define today in the Google settlement what

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exactly that economic activity was. That's why we're saying there's got

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to be openness and transparency. What should it be? We define

:10:42.:10:45.

economic activity by the basis of the profits that you secure within a

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country. It's down to profits. the profits that you secure within a

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asking you one step further - can you imagine a system which actually

:10:52.:10:56.

worked off the revenues a company was making or the sales it was

:10:57.:10:59.

making, rather than the profits is that the direction to go in? We've

:11:00.:11:03.

always worked on the basis that you seek to tax on the economic

:11:04.:11:07.

activity, based on identification of profits within a country itself. If

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we can secure openness and transparency, we can identify what

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the economic activities of that company is within the country, what

:11:16.:11:19.

the profits are, and then we can determine the level of taxation that

:11:20.:11:23.

we need to basically to ensure we have our services paid for. Also we

:11:24.:11:27.

need international agreement so there isn't this transfer and

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avoidance of tax. From one to another. Yes. I'm thinking back to

:11:31.:11:35.

the phrase you used at conference, "new politics requires new

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economics". There will be people expecting you to come in and do

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economics". There will be people something radically different, to

:11:44.:11:47.

rely re-- really reset the button between the relationship with the

:11:48.:11:50.

corporate giants that seem to be getting away with it and with the

:11:51.:11:53.

Government in waiting, which you want to be. This sounds like more of

:11:54.:11:58.

the same. Not at all. You said transparency, debate, we'll look at

:11:59.:12:01.

this. I don't see anyone saying we're going to do things radically

:12:02.:12:06.

different. This is radical. Making sure companies open their books and

:12:07.:12:10.

we can have complete openness and transparency. So it's just about

:12:11.:12:15.

transparency. You're not saying put up the corporate tax rate. Wait for

:12:16.:12:20.

it. Once you have openness, you can determine the economic activities,

:12:21.:12:23.

the profits they're making. Then we can set the tax rates on the basis

:12:24.:12:28.

what have we think is fair. What's unfair is companies out there across

:12:29.:12:32.

the UK filling in their tax forms, as are individuals, what they're

:12:33.:12:36.

paying is rates of tax, corporation tax 20%, higher on income tax, then

:12:37.:12:40.

Google paying 3%. That's unacceptable, unfair. We need to

:12:41.:12:45.

make sure the corporations cannot use tax avoidance measures to avoid

:12:46.:12:49.

their responsibilities to pay in for the public services, for example the

:12:50.:12:52.

education and training of their workforce. There are people who felt

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at one time they should boycott Starbucks if they didn't agree with

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the tax. Would you boycott Google? I've been involved in a range of

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boycotting campaigns. Do you boycott Google? The problem, is that a

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number of the IT companies have virtual monopolies, so most of us

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use it. We have to make sure where they are in such a dominant place -

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You carry on using Google broadly, there's nothing that you can do that

:13:19.:13:21.

would scare off people? Because they're so dominant within the

:13:22.:13:24.

market that's the reality of what we're dealing with. That's why you

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design a tax regime so you ensure those monopolies pay their full

:13:31.:13:33.

taxes and contribute towards the society they operate in. You don't

:13:34.:13:38.

think there's anything to scare Google off? Yes, it is. It's going

:13:39.:13:43.

to be John McDonnell and the Labour Party? It's society as a whole. We

:13:44.:13:47.

saw the Government isolated today on a cross-party basis people saying

:13:48.:13:50.

we've had enough of this, we want a fair taxation system and we're going

:13:51.:13:54.

to achieve it. Corporate tax at 18%, that's where it's headed is that the

:13:55.:13:58.

right amount to you? No, it isn't. That's too low. We would bring it

:13:59.:14:02.

back to 20%. We believe 18% is too low. In addition, they're reducing

:14:03.:14:06.

taxation, yet a large number of corporations and companies are

:14:07.:14:09.

sitting on earned income and not investing it. We want to ensure they

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invest in our society. Thank you. Thanks for coming in.

:14:15.:14:20.

The US presidential race has - for the past few months -

:14:21.:14:22.

been dominated by the politically-implausible,

:14:23.:14:24.

larger-than-life character of Donald Trump,

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which means much of what's happening in the Democratic race

:14:26.:14:27.

But if that race once looked like the coronation

:14:28.:14:30.

of Hillary Clinton, now it's looking more like a proper fight.

:14:31.:14:33.

Her challenger, Bernie Sanders, a self-declared socialist

:14:34.:14:35.

from Vermont, currently leads the polls in the first two electoral

:14:36.:14:37.

Now the former Mayor of New York, Michael Bloomberg -

:14:38.:14:41.

a man whose coffers make Donald Trump look like a pauper -

:14:42.:14:44.

suggested he might enter the race for the White House if the contest

:14:45.:14:48.

came down to a fight between Sanders and Trump.

:14:49.:14:54.

In a moment, we'll hear from Anne-Marie Slaughter,

:14:55.:14:56.

one of Clinton's closest political allies.

:14:57.:14:57.

First, a reminder of the race to date.

:14:58.:15:00.

Sometimes, an attack is the biggest compliment a politician can

:15:01.:15:03.

So Bernie Sanders has clearly gone up in Hillary Clinton's estimation

:15:04.:15:07.

if this jab at his healthcare plan is anything to go by.

:15:08.:15:12.

In theory, there is a lot to like

:15:13.:15:15.

about some of his ideas. But "in theory" isn't enough.

:15:16.:15:18.

A president has to deliver in reality.

:15:19.:15:23.

The Sanders surge has also prompted another politician

:15:24.:15:25.

Former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg is hinting that he'll get

:15:26.:15:31.

into the race if Donald Trump or Ted Cruz

:15:32.:15:36.

wins the Republican nomination, and Bernie Sanders becomes

:15:37.:15:38.

For his part, Mr Sanders appears to welcome a Bloomberg bid.

:15:39.:15:43.

If Donald Trump wins and Mr Bloomberg gets in,

:15:44.:15:46.

you'll have two multi billionaires running

:15:47.:15:47.

for President of the United States against me.

:15:48.:15:51.

And I think the American people do not want to see our nation

:15:52.:15:54.

where billionaires control the political process.

:15:55.:15:58.

Meanwhile, the Republican race frontrunner Donald Trump has

:15:59.:16:06.

been laying out how bullet-proof his popularity really is.

:16:07.:16:08.

They say I have the most loyal people,

:16:09.:16:10.

I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot

:16:11.:16:13.

somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters.

:16:14.:16:16.

To reflect on this, I spoke to Anne-Marie Slaughter,

:16:17.:16:19.

former senior adviser to Mrs Clinton.

:16:20.:16:22.

You've worked very closely with Hillary Clinton,

:16:23.:16:24.

who for years, to the world, seemed like she had the Democratic

:16:25.:16:29.

nomination pretty much in the bag this time.

:16:30.:16:32.

Now, suddenly, there is the spectre of what happens in Iowa

:16:33.:16:35.

and New Hampshire if Bernie Sanders pips her to the post.

:16:36.:16:39.

Well, I am still pretty confident that she will have

:16:40.:16:47.

the Democratic nomination and I do think it is not a bad thing

:16:48.:16:51.

for her to be challenged, because the American voters do not

:16:52.:16:53.

like a coronation, whether it is a man or woman,

:16:54.:16:58.

particularly, probably, if it is a woman.

:16:59.:17:00.

So she will fight for it and as she fights, that is part

:17:01.:17:03.

She is tough and experienced, and I think she will

:17:04.:17:06.

If she didn't, I for one would look at this and think,

:17:07.:17:10.

I'm not sure we're going to have a woman

:17:11.:17:13.

You can't get more qualified than she is.

:17:14.:17:16.

Of course, there have been lots of issues in her life.

:17:17.:17:19.

You can't be in the public eye for that long

:17:20.:17:21.

and not have lots of issues, but there are plenty of male

:17:22.:17:24.

politicians who have plenty of outright scandals that happened

:17:25.:17:26.

to them, and they have overcome them.

:17:27.:17:28.

So I do see some of this through a gender lens,

:17:29.:17:31.

I can't help it, because I am looking at her and thinking,

:17:32.:17:34.

what more could you want in a president?

:17:35.:17:38.

The interesting dichotomy is that she should be

:17:39.:17:42.

the ground-breaking candidate, the first woman, and she doesn't

:17:43.:17:44.

seem like the ground-breaking candidate, because

:17:45.:17:47.

America feels that they know her almost too well.

:17:48.:17:50.

She feels like the establishment to many people.

:17:51.:17:52.

We saw that with Obama, too, this disgust with the system,

:17:53.:17:59.

rightly in many ways, because the system is broken.

:18:00.:18:01.

Yes, they have cast her as the establishment,

:18:02.:18:06.

but I also think it is because younger women

:18:07.:18:08.

don't realise how revolutionary it is to have a woman being taken

:18:09.:18:11.

seriously as a presidential candidate.

:18:12.:18:15.

Did you see Obama's recent comments that he

:18:16.:18:19.

thinks Hillary Clinton has got unfair scrutiny,

:18:20.:18:21.

and that he even regrets the tone of the battle they had in 2008?

:18:22.:18:25.

I did not see that, but I was furious with him

:18:26.:18:30.

back when he said, "You're likeable enough, Hillary".

:18:31.:18:34.

I did think he patronised her in the 2008 election,

:18:35.:18:39.

and it was one of the things, I wanted him too, but in the end

:18:40.:18:42.

I supported her, because I think she was treated in a very

:18:43.:18:46.

and good for him for saying that now.

:18:47.:18:52.

When you look at the race, and the suggestion that Bloomberg

:18:53.:18:55.

might come into it, could you see that?

:18:56.:18:57.

Is that a good move as an independent?

:18:58.:19:00.

Well, I look at this and think, wait a minute,

:19:01.:19:03.

between two white male billionaires, really?

:19:04.:19:07.

Is that what American politics has come down to?

:19:08.:19:11.

I don't know whether he will do it. I don't think he should.

:19:12.:19:18.

This is not a professional view, but I don't think

:19:19.:19:27.

it would be good for American politics to have a kind of

:19:28.:19:30.

very wealthy, white knight ride to the rescue,

:19:31.:19:33.

because a woman, what? That she can't win?

:19:34.:19:37.

Let's have this election, and let's give her a chance,

:19:38.:19:40.

and I also think if there is another attack,

:19:41.:19:44.

if there are any other national-security events,

:19:45.:19:47.

and there will be, voters are going to think,

:19:48.:19:49.

who do you want in charge when that happens?

:19:50.:19:52.

Can you see a scenario in which Donald Trump wins

:19:53.:19:55.

the nomination and wins the presidency?

:19:56.:19:58.

I can see a scenario in which he wins the nomination.

:19:59.:20:03.

But not the presidency, you cannot imagine President Trump?

:20:04.:20:08.

But I have a lot of confidence in Hillary Clinton.

:20:09.:20:17.

We could be looking at the first female presidency by November.

:20:18.:20:22.

Do you think that would feel different?

:20:23.:20:25.

Should it feel different if a woman is the president?

:20:26.:20:28.

I think it will feel enormously different.

:20:29.:20:32.

We can say women have got there, but in fact, in the corridors

:20:33.:20:36.

of power, and let's face it, the Oval Office is the ultimate seat

:20:37.:20:39.

of power, certainly in the United States and in many

:20:40.:20:43.

ways in the world, having a woman in that

:20:44.:20:46.

position does say to every woman and every girl,

:20:47.:20:50.

His lifelong hero was Earnest Shackleton,

:20:51.:20:59.

across the Antarctic that Henry Worlsley was trying

:21:00.:21:04.

to recreate - with the huge, added challenge that Worsley

:21:05.:21:06.

Like Shackleton, his bravery and his willingness to endure

:21:07.:21:12.

endless, uncharted terrain led him into a desperate race for survival

:21:13.:21:16.

The British explorer died of organ failure,

:21:17.:21:19.

tragically, when the end of the mission was almost in sight -

:21:20.:21:25.

just 30 miles remained of his 1,000-mile journey.

:21:26.:21:27.

Prince William has led the tributes to the former SAS officer,

:21:28.:21:29.

who died raising money for wounded soldiers.

:21:30.:21:31.

All alone in Antarctica, Henry Worsley kept an audio diary of his

:21:32.:22:04.

extraordinary trek. He hoped to achieve what his great hero, Sir

:22:05.:22:10.

Ernest Shackleton, had failed to do a century earlier, and cross this

:22:11.:22:16.

great white wilderness. On earlier accompanied adventures, Worsley

:22:17.:22:19.

settled down for the long evenings with Shackleton's writing. We would

:22:20.:22:27.

read the heart of Antarctica every night, and pick out bits of his

:22:28.:22:32.

diary that are absolutely spot on to where we have got two on the

:22:33.:22:38.

journey. Very meaningful, brings it all to life, particularly the

:22:39.:22:41.

description of the views he can say and the trouble he is having with

:22:42.:22:46.

his ponies, and even the weather. He had worse weather than we are

:22:47.:22:51.

having. Shackleton is one of the great romantic figures of British

:22:52.:22:55.

exploration. His epic mission failed after his ship was crushed by ice,

:22:56.:22:59.

but he kept his men alive. They all came home again. He is remembered in

:23:00.:23:04.

an exhibition at the royal geographical Society in London. I

:23:05.:23:10.

think it has a lot to do with the psyche of the British public in

:23:11.:23:14.

terms of the storytelling that goes with all of these expeditions,

:23:15.:23:17.

because they are handed down to us through generations. There is always

:23:18.:23:21.

a willingness for somebody to give up something for others. Those were

:23:22.:23:25.

the equivalence of Nasa sending men into space. They have a sense of

:23:26.:23:28.

where they were going. They had all the equipment and the skills they

:23:29.:23:34.

could have individually, but ultimately, it was the men in the

:23:35.:23:36.

wilderness environment. On his earlier journey in the South

:23:37.:23:56.

Pole, Henry Worsley reached the spot where Shackleton decided he couldn't

:23:57.:24:02.

go on. The decision to turn back must be one of the greatest

:24:03.:24:07.

decisions taken in the whole annals of exploration, particularly polar

:24:08.:24:12.

exploration. He came so close. He pioneered this route, 850 miles.

:24:13.:24:17.

Every day, he was seeing new sites. 97 miles to go, and turns round when

:24:18.:24:24.

such a glorious prize is staring him in the face.

:24:25.:25:15.

I'm joined by record-breaking Polar explorer, Caroline Hamilton,

:25:16.:25:20.

and from our Birmingham studio, professional explorer Mark Wood,

:25:21.:25:22.

who was a friend of Henry Worsley and has completed over 30 major

:25:23.:25:25.

expeditions around the world, including a solo expedition

:25:26.:25:27.

Mark, I know you were good friends with Henry and we really got a sense

:25:28.:25:45.

in that film of the man at the heart of this tragedy. How did you see

:25:46.:25:52.

him? Well, I met Henry when I arrived at the South Pole in 2012,

:25:53.:26:02.

after my solo attempt there. I found it extraordinarily difficult to

:26:03.:26:05.

reach the Pole itself, and when I first met Henry, he was full of

:26:06.:26:11.

smiles and fun and laughter, and then I found out five minutes later

:26:12.:26:15.

that he had just completed an 80 day plus expedition himself. So an

:26:16.:26:21.

extraordinary, strong willed, powerful man, with a deep sense of

:26:22.:26:27.

humour. Do you understand that need for solo exploration? It seems to be

:26:28.:26:33.

quintessential to this expedition, that drive to do it alone. Yeah.

:26:34.:26:40.

Exploring is either about what you walk through and what you see more

:26:41.:26:46.

or what you feel internally. To do a solo expedition is a different step

:26:47.:26:50.

altogether. You can't train for it, you just have to be thrown into the

:26:51.:26:56.

deep end. I can understand why Henry wanted to take up this expedition

:26:57.:27:02.

historically, but also for personal reasons. That is why we export to

:27:03.:27:09.

begin with. It all becomes personal. Caroline, how do you explain to

:27:10.:27:13.

somebody who is not an explorer just why you would take your life in your

:27:14.:27:17.

hands like this to achieve something like that? I think it is about

:27:18.:27:22.

challenging yourself. It is there, it is a wonderful thing to do. As

:27:23.:27:26.

Mark has been saying, when you are out there, you have an inner journey

:27:27.:27:31.

going on at the same time as the outer journey. And Antarctica and

:27:32.:27:35.

the Arctic are incredibly beautiful. It is such a privilege to be there.

:27:36.:27:40.

The whole thing as an assault on every sense. Not just what it looks

:27:41.:27:44.

like, it is what it sounds like and smells like, and to be able to bend

:27:45.:27:50.

70 or 80 days, however long you are out there it a huge privilege to be

:27:51.:27:56.

in a wonderful part of the planet. You are talking about conditions of

:27:57.:28:02.

-40 or lower. What does the cold do to you mentally and to your actions?

:28:03.:28:09.

It affects everything. I remember many evenings in the 10th, where you

:28:10.:28:15.

are melting snow to a quarter to drink and to make your food with --

:28:16.:28:20.

in the tent. And as you melt the water, you get steam coming out from

:28:21.:28:23.

the water. You have condensation from your own breath. I remember

:28:24.:28:27.

days digging in the tent when the whole place would be in a kind of

:28:28.:28:31.

fog and nobody could give anything to say to each other except how cold

:28:32.:28:35.

we were. We couldn't see each other. We couldn't think of anything to

:28:36.:28:41.

say. Mark, when you heard, in the film, Henry describing that moment

:28:42.:28:46.

for Shackleton, the agony of turning back, does that perhaps tell you

:28:47.:28:53.

something about why he himself left it so late? It is difficult to say,

:28:54.:29:00.

but I think if you are travelling as a team, then when you get medical

:29:01.:29:05.

conditions and you have other people to add their judgment to it, I think

:29:06.:29:11.

if it was a team approach, the expedition would have stopped

:29:12.:29:14.

earlier. But because Henry has got this tremendous drive and

:29:15.:29:20.

determination in him, any injuries that come up, you think you can get

:29:21.:29:24.

through it. I can't really speak for the situation, but I presume it was

:29:25.:29:30.

sheer determination, that he thought he could get past it and reach the

:29:31.:29:35.

final goal. And do you think that ultimately, that was where it went

:29:36.:29:39.

wrong, that you lose your sense of judgment of how bad things have got?

:29:40.:29:50.

Yeah, again, it is difficult to say, but I would say that you haven't got

:29:51.:29:54.

anything to measure it against apart from yourself. So I think he pushed

:29:55.:30:01.

it as far as he could and then literally, his body said Noel, I

:30:02.:30:07.

can't do this any more. -- his body said no. The problem with great

:30:08.:30:13.

explorers like Henry is that he has this real dog-eared British

:30:14.:30:18.

determination to just go that bit further --. Determination. And it

:30:19.:30:25.

might have been the ultimate decision, really. Caroline, when you

:30:26.:30:31.

think how connected we all are all the time, in a way, that is what

:30:32.:30:36.

makes a journey like this so extraordinary, the idea that you

:30:37.:30:40.

don't see humankind, you don't have any contact. Is that what makes it

:30:41.:30:43.

more attractive? That is part of the joy of it. You

:30:44.:30:55.

are self-sufficient. If you're in a team, you have people to share

:30:56.:30:58.

problems with and would can help with decision making. But even if

:30:59.:31:03.

you're a small group, you're entirely self-sufficient in this

:31:04.:31:07.

amazing wilderness, that is part of the appeal, yes. Thank you both very

:31:08.:31:08.

much. The writer Ben Judah grew up

:31:09.:31:11.

in London, but he says it's changed so much in recent years,

:31:12.:31:15.

he no longer knows whether he loves In a new book, he attempts to get

:31:16.:31:18.

beneath the surface of this new London, sleeping in subways

:31:19.:31:23.

and squatting in a dosshouse, getting to know some

:31:24.:31:26.

of the characters behind He made this film for us,

:31:27.:31:29.

with some of the many people he met People see this place to be, like,

:31:30.:31:48.

heaven. They think as soon as you arrive, you start plucking money off

:31:49.:31:52.

trees and picking them from the floor, whatever. But it's entirely

:31:53.:31:58.

different. I never dream of London. I can only see the buildings and

:31:59.:32:08.

about the Royal Family in the movie. If you can call it British dream,

:32:09.:32:13.

London dream, you name, it I think you can make it. This is the new

:32:14.:32:20.

London. An immigrant megacity, where nearly 40% were born abroad. I was

:32:21.:32:26.

born in London but I no longer recognise the city. I'm in search

:32:27.:32:29.

the stories that make up its new soul. I'm currently working in the

:32:30.:32:37.

cleaning industry. I'm a cleaner. How long is the commute? Takes me

:32:38.:32:42.

about an hour. Who are the people on the train in the morning? Well, you

:32:43.:32:47.

see a lot of people going to work, mostly immigrants. Going to work at

:32:48.:32:59.

this time of the day. London is changing. Around half the street

:33:00.:33:06.

sleepers are eastern European tramps. Is London difficult?

:33:07.:33:11.

Difficult, yeah. I don't know English. I coming here, it's very

:33:12.:33:19.

difficult. The people who coming here must speak the English language

:33:20.:33:26.

first. After they find a job, England have the jobs. Nicolai is

:33:27.:33:37.

off to find work. When it comes, it won't pay well. On the Romanian

:33:38.:33:41.

black market, the lowest wage I saw was one chicken and chips for a

:33:42.:33:53.

day's work. I don't have another solution, so I am on the streets. I

:33:54.:33:58.

can't bank because I don't have address. When I go to the agency,

:33:59.:34:03.

they want account bank to pay me. Where I go? I go in the street. He

:34:04.:34:11.

touts for work on the kerb every day. This is the London I've

:34:12.:34:18.

conculled, the city of beggars, black markets and doss houses. Why

:34:19.:34:24.

do they come? Because for men of a trade, for the few, the London dream

:34:25.:34:32.

can be real. I have literally ?250 in my pocket. I stayed in a room

:34:33.:34:36.

with a friend of mine, which he was already here. And I went out

:34:37.:34:42.

literally the next day to look for the job. I would stand on the corner

:34:43.:34:47.

where you have all other chaps waiting for the work. I speak up

:34:48.:34:51.

like the other people, that's how it worked those days. Every town in

:34:52.:34:56.

Poland has its London son, the boy who made it. He inspires 100 more.

:34:57.:35:02.

When all the Poles were coming, they were cautious about us. Now they're

:35:03.:35:06.

much more open. They prefer us on the building sites. They prefer us

:35:07.:35:11.

to do the building for them. Comparing to the native people. Fay

:35:12.:35:15.

came from your home -- if I came from your home town and I asked -

:35:16.:35:19.

should I come to London? What would you say? Yes, come over. I own three

:35:20.:35:24.

companies at the moment. I've got some renting properties. I own a

:35:25.:35:30.

house. I'm very happy. Do you think your children will be English first

:35:31.:35:34.

or Polish first? Looks like they're going to be English first, because

:35:35.:35:37.

we speak Polish at home, but they do speak English to each other. They

:35:38.:35:41.

speak perfectly Polish, perfect English. But they still, I would

:35:42.:35:46.

say, they are going to be more English than Polish. But mostly,

:35:47.:35:54.

migrants clean, wait and guard the golden city, never to enter. Jesy is

:35:55.:36:02.

from the Philippines. She works as a maid for the absentee owners of a

:36:03.:36:06.

superflat. I have missed my family very much. I left my daughter when

:36:07.:36:14.

she was one year and 11 months old. Because back home, I couldn't earn

:36:15.:36:21.

money to support my family, so I have to make an arrangement with my

:36:22.:36:27.

husband that one of us has to go and one has to stay to take care of my

:36:28.:36:33.

daughter. She found work bringing up another child, a little boy. She was

:36:34.:36:39.

a nanny. When the time came to go, she learned servants are never part

:36:40.:36:44.

of the family. When it comes to the point that we need to say goodbye,

:36:45.:36:51.

it's very hard for us this separation. I experienced it. Until

:36:52.:37:00.

now, this boy still here if my heart. Are you still in touch with

:37:01.:37:05.

the boy? The parents doesn't want them, doesn't want him to think

:37:06.:37:11.

about me any more. So they told him that I left London. Yes. Because he

:37:12.:37:27.

was crying and crying when I left. At night, London myrrh murmurs --

:37:28.:37:33.

murmurs. To be poor this London is to be tired. For years, Wester

:37:34.:37:41.

worked two jobs, cleaning day and night.

:37:42.:37:46.

I had a dream of becoming a system engineer, Microsoft engineer. But

:37:47.:37:54.

for now, I think I've gone astray. I'm still not giving up on my

:37:55.:38:00.

dreams. I'm still working on it. I can't complain. I'm doing well in

:38:01.:38:06.

the cleaning business. So, I can't complain. I'm not hungry. When you

:38:07.:38:11.

told your friends in Ghana you were going to London, what did they say?

:38:12.:38:16.

Everybody was happy. Like I said, some people back home think Europe,

:38:17.:38:22.

once you step in there you become a rich man overnight. And even to

:38:23.:38:26.

date, you still have some people calling and asking you for money.

:38:27.:38:31.

Even if you tell them you are broke, no, you are not. When we see you

:38:32.:38:35.

here, we know you're languishing, you know in riches and all that.

:38:36.:38:39.

You're just being stingy because you don't want to send us no money. This

:38:40.:38:44.

is what I want them to know that life is Notts all that milk -- not

:38:45.:38:48.

all that milk and roses here in London. Did you find work today? I

:38:49.:38:57.

don't. I don't find. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe tomorrow is another day. Every

:38:58.:39:04.

day, it's another day, with a chance. The London gives one million

:39:05.:39:09.

chance every day. Is it scary at night? It's all the crazy people.

:39:10.:39:19.

Must be careful, in the night. The night is dangerous. London glows in

:39:20.:39:30.

the villages of Africa, Eastern Europe and Asia, stirring up dreams.

:39:31.:39:33.

Tempting, like the city of Oz. Senegal's most famous son,

:39:34.:39:39.

Baba Maal has released his first album in seven years,

:39:40.:39:45.

and he's in Britain performing it. Hes with us here,

:39:46.:39:48.

tonight, with this song,

:39:49.:39:51.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis. Featuring the shadow chancellor on Google's tax arrangements, Anne-Marie Slaughter on Hillary Clinton, the death of Antarctic explorer Henry Worlsley, the migrant poor of London and Baba Maal.


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