15/02/2016 Newsnight


15/02/2016

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Tonight an exclusive UK TV interview with the mother of the Columbine

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killer who breaks her seventeen year silence.

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I remember at that point thinking if Dylan is really doing this,

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At that moment it was when I really prayed for him to die.

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And what would she say to the families of the dead

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I have this feeling of wanting to say over and over again,

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And I know that such a thing is so completely inadequate.

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But I don't know what else to say, except, I'm sorry.

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Also tonight we reveal and see evidence that Labour is telling

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members not to hold debates about leaving Europe,

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I think they shouldn't be nervous of having the debate -

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if they have a strong case let's hear it.

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We have got our case and we want to put it.

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And veteran gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell on why people should

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be allowed to say Transwomen aren't real women.

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And transactivist Paris Lees on why they shouldn't.

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What is it like to know that your own son planned

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15 people died and 24 others were wounded

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in the Columbine High School tragedy in 1999.

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It was the first mass shooting of the 24-hour news era and pictures

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were beamed live from helicopters circling the school,

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and students trapped inside were interviewed live on air.

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The two killers, 17-year-old Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris

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who was eighteen, eventually killed themselves in the school library.

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In the aftermath the parents of the killers were excoriated.

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For seventeen years Dylan Klebold's mother kept her silence trying

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to understand what drove her 17-year-old son to kill

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Now she has written a book about it, A Mother's Reckoning,

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donating her profits to mental health charities, because one

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of the many things she didn't know about her son was

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This is Sue Klebold's only British television interview.

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You may find some of the scenes disturbing.

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Columbine High School lies 50 miles south of Denver in the shadow

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On the 20th of April 1999 its name became infamous around the world

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when two students, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, calmly

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drove their cars, packed with explosives, guns,

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parking lot and set about destroying the school.

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This wasn't a moment of madness, it was a cold-blooded massacre.

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The suburban high school turned into a killing field.

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I was screaming, and crying, I was telling them not to shoot me.

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So he shot the girl, he shot her in the head

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One by one they extracted the dead and injured from the school.

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This teenager was rescued from an upstairs classroom.

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I have been a SWAT officer since 1980 and this was clearly

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the most devastating and dramatic scene that I have ever seen.

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And began -- tell me how the day began. It was still dark. I heard

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Dylan thundering down the stairs in his boots. I was startled because it

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was too early for him to be up. I opened my bedroom door and I yelled,

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Dylan? He was at the front door already. I couldn't see him but all

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I heard him say was goodbye, then he slammed the door and left. I was

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very concerned. I woke my husband and said something is bothering him.

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Would you talk to him later? My husband said I will be home all day,

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I will talk to him when he gets home. And then what happened? About

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noon I was getting ready to go to a meeting. I worked for the college

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system. I had left my desk and came back and the message light was

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flashing on my telephone. I thought I better listen to it. I picked up

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the phone and listened and it was my husband, this voice, and he sounded

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horribly upset. His voice was cracking. He could hardly breathe.

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And he said, listen to the television, something horrible is

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happening at school. It was such a day of confusion. Police came to our

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home. We were asked to leave our home. We had to sit outside. We sat

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on the ground all day. At that stage you must have known that it was more

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likely your son was involved in the shooting, rather than someone who

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was shot. We heard through the window. The television was on. We

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heard that 25 people were dead. At that point I remembered thinking, if

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Dylan is really doing this, he must stop. And in that moment I prayed

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for him to die. I thought something has got to stop this. Whatever it is

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that is going on. It took me a very long time to believe, months, to

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believe that my son was actually responsible for killing and hurting

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people. Up until that time I believe I was living in an extreme state of

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denial. He was there, but he didn't really kill anybody, or, he wasn't

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what they were saying. That it was Eric? Yes, that it was Eric. Dylan

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Klebold lived in this house for almost a decade. In 1997 Dylan

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Klebold and Eric Harris were caught stealing. It hit the family hard.

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Dylan Became withdrawn and hostile but still took part of family

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events, held down a part-time job, he went to the school prom three

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days before the massacre. But what his parents didn't know was that

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Dylan Klebold has been suicidal for two years. He poured all of his rage

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and upset into diaries and journals that were only handed to the family

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by the police almost two years after the killing. What they were also

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unaware of was that Dylan had hidden a sawn off shotgun and ammunition in

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his bedroom. Police later said the killers had prepared 99 home-made

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explosive devices for use in the attack. It must have been a strange

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thing to compute, to know that between them Dylan and Eric Harris

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were going to blow up the whole school. That was one of the most

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difficult moments of this entire process. I had to go through so many

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phases of accessing this, and accepting, OK, they were there, OK,

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they hurt people, it was purposeful, yes, it was planned, it wasn't

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impulsive. Then at the police report to finally learned that their plan

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has been to kill everybody in the school but their plan failed. When I

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thought of that, and thought of the magnitude, I really did not think I

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was going to live through it. You come in the book, sometimes

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described him as withdrawn and monosyllabic, and that he took

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failure heart. Whether certain signs that you missed? -- failure hard. In

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his junior year several things happened. He got arrested, he got in

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trouble at school, he has scratched a locker at school... I did not

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recognise that those things meant there was a potential life and death

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situation. I didn't recognise that these were possible signs of a

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mental condition. According to FBI records there have

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been 50 mass murders, or attempted mass murders, in schools in America

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since Columbine. Sue Klebold made one stipulation before our

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interview, that we would not show the CCTV pictures of the boys in the

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school during the massacre. For fear of copycat attacks.

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You were asked to go to the Sheriff's office six months after

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the massacre to be showing videos. Tell me about that. It was a

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collection of the two of them talking about what they were going

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to do. Horribly violent and hateful... I remember when I saw

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that I actually stood up. I thought I was going to be ill. It was such a

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shock. The person I was seeing on that film wasn't anybody I could

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recognise. It wasn't Dylan. At that point did you have to face up to the

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fact that he was equally responsible for Columbine? That's it. That was

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the moment. That was the day in which I learnt that he was not an

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innocent bystander who happened to get involved. This wasn't an

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impulsive act. He prepared for this for a long period of time. And that

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he was equally involved in killing people, and saying horrible things

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to people before they died. In the aftermath of the massacre you had

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support from friends and co-workers, but you also had a substantial

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firestorm coming at you. What sort of things happened? I remember being

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in a grocery store and paying with a cheque. The checker recognised my

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name and asked me if I knew him. I said yes, he was my son, and then

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she started saying in a very loud voice, you know, this was the work

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of Satan, and just shouting at me. I am trying to bag my groceries and go

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out. I would turn on the radio and hear myself being discussed, and

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called disgusting. These were just things that happened. It created a

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feeling, always, of being watched, being judged. This instant decision

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from people who didn't know. People want to believe that it is something

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as simple as bad parenting. Because it is a comforting fort. Because

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nobody wants to believe that anything like this can happen to us.

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-- comforting thought. I think it made people feel safer to believe

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that we were all of the things they wished we were, or perceived us to

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be, or imprinted on us, because then they could feel, well, this will not

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happen to me because I am not like that. You also wrote to the victims'

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families. I did, yes. A father wrote back to us about a year later, for

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which I was extremely grateful. He wanted to meet with us. It was

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profoundly comforting to me. It meant so much to me. I received a

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letter from the sister of one of the girls who had been shot. And then

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one of the mothers of the girls who had been killed also reached out and

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wanted to meet with me. Those things meant so much to me. I couldn't... I

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couldn't even begin to explain how it felt so wonderful to have them be

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gracious enough, and brave enough to do that.

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Sue Klebold now believes her son's suicidal ideas were a significant

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factor in the Columbine massacre. Since 1999 she has become

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increasingly involved in the issue of the suicide prevention.

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You say in the book, I shall listen more and lecture less. In all the

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years since I lost Dylan, I wish I had just said, you feel that way,

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tell me about it some more, tell me about how you feel. I think I had a

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tendency more to lecture, tell him what to do, to do what parents do. I

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just wished I had talked much less. I read somewhere that you had worn a

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piece of his clothing. You held onto things. I did wear his clothes for a

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long time. My husband and I both did. It was just a feeling of

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wanting him a little bit close. -- closer.

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The tragedy, which was at the time the worst school shooting in

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American history, cast a long shadow. Families were shattered.

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Sons and daughters dead. One teacher murdered as he tried to protect

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students. And those who were shocked that they and survived some of them

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living with the most horrific wounds.

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Have you been to the memorial? I have. What happened when he went

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there? I have been quite a few times. What I do is I sit there and

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in my head I talk to the kids, and the teacher who was there, without

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the rest of the world, without parents, lawyers, community... I

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just want them to know that I am thinking of them. And I will always

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think of them. Do you want to take a moment? I am

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OK. You talk a lot in the book about faith. Do you still believe in God?

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Not in the same way that I did before. But I wonder if you had

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religion before in a different way, whether you believe there is a God.

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I don't know, I go back and forth. The one thing I have hoped for again

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and again is that in some moment in this present life, or in the

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position or in the future like I will see him again. I am hoping I

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will see him again. The moment you believe in good and evil, you might

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be in a different place. I know. A lot of people will read this book in

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different ways because it means a lot to different groups, so it will

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mean a lot to the victims' families, to the survivors, some of whom are

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still in a wheelchair. What would you say to them? What do you say to

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them now? I have this feeling of wanting to say over and over again I

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am sorry, I am sorry, I am sorry. I know that such a thing is so

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completely inadequate. But I don't know what else to say besides I am

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sorry. I am just so sorry for what Dylan did. Thank you very much.

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And you can see the full-length version of that interview

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with Susan Klebold on a special edition of Our World on the BBC

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News Channel this Saturday and Sunday at 9.30pm.

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At the start of the week which may well define Britain's chances

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of staying in Europe or leaving it, and as David Cameron

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and Francois Hollande have a hastily arranged meeting in Paris tonight

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ahead of Thursday's Brussels summit, the European Council President sent

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Risk of break up is real as UK in EU negotiations very fragile.

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"Fragile" is the word that could be applied to many elements of this

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Both the Government and the opposition are divided,

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and as our Political Editor David Grossman found out Labour officials

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have been attempting to keep a lid on their party's Eurosceptics.

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Labour used to be Britain's most Eurosceptic party.

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Here is Labour leader Hugh Gaitskell issuing dire warnings about joining

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We must be clear about this. It does mean if this is an idea the end of

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Britain as an independent nation state. I make no apology about

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repeating it, the end of 1000 years of history. You might say, it ends,

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but it is a decision that needs care and thought.

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I think it is anti-democratic, it is anti-socialist

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Its employment rate is high and its growth rate is low

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and looking at Southern Europe it has done terrible damage

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We have been on a long journey with this.

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Of course in 1983 famously we campaigned to pull out

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of the European Union and that helped to contribute to our most

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disastrous election result for a century.

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Our pivotal moment was Jacques Delors's speech to the TUC

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Congress in 1988 when he laid out the vision of a social Europe.

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Bruised from their third election defeat the labour movement became

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enthusiastic pro-Europeans almost overnight as a way of using Brussels

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to fight for the rights of working people.

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It is no secret that many of us have been sceptical about the benefits

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Colleagues, in the short term we have not a cat in hell's chance

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The only card game in town at the moment is in a town called

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Brussels and it is a game of poker where we have got to learn the rules

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By the mid-90s Labour had its most Euro enthusiastic leader ever,

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but many particularly on the left were unconvinced.

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They saw the EU as profoundly anti-democratic.

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We have European bureaucracy totally unaccountable to anybody. The powers

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have gone from national parliaments and they have gone to the commission

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and the Council of ministers and these are serious matters.

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Jeremy Corbyn did come down in favour of Britain's EU membership.

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There would have been mass resignations and rebellion

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I certainly let him know my view and this was a clear choice

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The word "maybe" is not on the ballot paper as I have always

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But I would give Jeremy Corbyn credit for being clear,

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not just on one occasion, but on many occasions since he took

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over the leadership, that he is going to campaign to stay

:20:07.:20:09.

But is the Labour Party trying to stifle debate on the referendum?

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Newsnight has obtained an e-mail from the party's general secretary

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Ian McNicol warning constituency parties that they should not

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be organising debates on whether to stay in the EU or not,

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but instead get fully behind the party's policy of

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The e-mail was sent to a local party officer who had enquired

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about organising an in-out referendum debate.

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The answer they received was a forwarded message

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from Ian McNicol, the party's general secretary, which pointed out

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that party conference had voted unanimously to support remaining

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Rather than having a debate, the e-mail said, on whether to

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support Britain's EU membership constituency Labour parties should

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be campaigning to keep Britain in the European Union in line

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with Labour's values and labour policy.

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I think they should not be nervous about having the debate.

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If they have got a strong case, let's hear it.

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We have got our case and we want to put it.

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We asked the Labour Party to comment on the e-mail.

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They denied banning Labour leave speakers, but said it was right that

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all official Labour events and meetings focused

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on their campaign to stake in the EU.

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With me now is John Mills, businessman and Labour donor

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who will lead the Vote Leave campaign and from Birmingham

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the Labour MP Emma Reynolds, who is a member of the cross party

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Good evening. What is your reaction to the idea that the general

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secretary is saying you should not be having any debates, you should

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only be campaigning for a yes vote? That is very unfortunate. There are

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a large number of Labour members who used to the Labour who have gone off

:21:57.:22:00.

to Ukip and the Conservatives and they have a different view from the

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Labour Party nationally. They want to hear the arguments on both sides.

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That does not stop you voting to stay in it that is the way you think

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the argument goes, but it is not right that the arguments for coming

:22:14.:22:17.

out should not be heard. They should be. Surely you cannot be happy with

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a directive that says you should not have a debate? I think the secretary

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general was right to say that we have had that debate at our party

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conference and we unanimously agreed on a motion put forward by the GMB

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trade union that we should campaign as a party to stay in the European

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Union. Jeremy Corbyn has been clear about that as well. We have only got

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until the 23rd of June to make that case. I think it is right the party

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leadership is saying to party members, the vast majority of whom

:22:54.:22:58.

are pro-European, let's get on with it and get on with the debate. Hang

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on. What John Mills was saying just now, electoral damage has been done

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to you in 40 for Labour seats with Ukip finishing second. It suggests

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there are some Labour voters who are Eurosceptic. Are you saying they are

:23:17.:23:21.

out in the cold? No, what I am saying... You are. We are taking a

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decision that we are pro-European and that has been the case for

:23:29.:23:35.

decades. We should have a discussion with Labour voters about these

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issues, of course we should. Can I be clear? You as an MP in your

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constituency could not have a debate that had people who said leave on

:23:46.:23:53.

the platform with you? That is the directive, you would not have that

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debate? I have had lots of debate with people on the other side of the

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argument, but the priority for me as a Labour MP is to go and talk to my

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constituents about the decision they will have to make possibly as early

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as June. That is my priority, but that is not to say I am not

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debating. I did a debate last week with a Eurosceptic. Of course those

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debates will keep happening, but the focus in the Labour Party is to make

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the case to remain in the union, based on our values. This is a

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whipped vote. There is nothing freak about this, there is no suspension

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of the whip. Do you believe there should be a suspension? The Labour

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Party has agreed that Labour Party members can act on either side and

:24:43.:24:48.

come out if they want to stay in, so the Labour Party is not stopping

:24:49.:24:52.

people. Let's talk about the Shadow Cabinet, are there people who want

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out in the Shadow cabinet? Yes, there are people sympathetic to

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coming out. I dead people in there now? Yes, several. Not vast numbers,

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but several. They are stopped by Cabinet responsibility from

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advocating coming out, and that I understand. But outside the Cabinet,

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as in 1975, people should be allowed to canvas and support staying out

:25:21.:25:30.

and staying in? Time is of the essence and it looks like there will

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be a referendum vote in June. Will we see Shadow Cabinet people coming

:25:35.:25:39.

out and supporting leading? I am not sure what will happen to be honest.

:25:40.:25:44.

It may well be that Cabinet responsibility will stop that

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happening. But that should not stop other people in the Labour Party,

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including a substantial minority, from being allowed to express their

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views. Why do you think we are not seen so much of Jeremy Corbyn

:25:58.:26:00.

talking about Europe at all. It has been left at Alan Johnson, yet it is

:26:01.:26:06.

one of the most important thing we are discussing in decades and Jeremy

:26:07.:26:08.

Corbyn is not leading from the front. This is important. Jeremy

:26:09.:26:15.

Corbyn and the entire Shadow Cabinet has signed up to a pro-European

:26:16.:26:20.

agreement with MPs in Parliament and over 90% of our MPs have signed up

:26:21.:26:27.

to that group. There are only a small number of MPs who want us to

:26:28.:26:32.

come out. The vast majority, the consensus, is we should campaign to

:26:33.:26:36.

stay in the EU. Jeremy Corbyn was very clear from the start of his

:26:37.:26:40.

leadership that is a party which he is leading we will be campaigning to

:26:41.:26:45.

stay in the European Union and he has been clear and consistent on

:26:46.:26:49.

that point. I wonder how many speeches he has made in the last few

:26:50.:26:52.

weeks about the importance of staying in Europe. He has made a

:26:53.:26:58.

number of speeches in Parliament because he has had to respond to the

:26:59.:27:01.

Prime Minister who has come back from a number of summits. But they

:27:02.:27:07.

are both on the same side. How do you think Jeremy Corbyn is doing in

:27:08.:27:12.

all this? He is under very substantial constraints because of

:27:13.:27:16.

Cabinet responsibility. Whether that is where his heart lies is another

:27:17.:27:17.

matter. Thank you all very much. The United Nations say that almost

:27:18.:27:24.

50 people have been killed in missile attacks on hospitals

:27:25.:27:26.

and schools in Syria, which it called a blatant violation

:27:27.:27:29.

of international law. Two of the hospitals that

:27:30.:27:38.

were hit were in Idlib, where rebels have taken control

:27:39.:27:41.

of the province and where Syrian and Russian fighter jets

:27:42.:27:44.

have been in operation. One target was a field

:27:45.:27:46.

hospital supported by MSF, and the organisation

:27:47.:27:48.

says its destruction will deprive At the Munich conferecne

:27:49.:27:50.

at the weekend, the Russian Prime Minister Dimitri Medvedev denied

:27:51.:27:59.

Russian planes had killed civilians but activists have blamed Russia

:28:00.:28:02.

for all three attacks. I'm joined now by Andre Heller

:28:03.:28:04.

Perache, Head of Programs at Medecins Sans Frontieres UK

:28:05.:28:07.

who has been monitoring Good evening. What is the latest on

:28:08.:28:20.

these attacks in Syria? From the information we have got today, there

:28:21.:28:27.

are rescue operations to find more survivors and it has stopped with

:28:28.:28:31.

nightfall. Seven people were confirmed dead within the hospital,

:28:32.:28:37.

including patients and personnel. There are eight still missing

:28:38.:28:40.

presumed dead that we are aware of and beyond that there are additional

:28:41.:28:46.

patients who were in the hospital. You are pretty sure you were

:28:47.:28:49.

targeted rather than it being collateral damage? Effectively it

:28:50.:28:55.

was direct targeting and by that I mean there were successive air

:28:56.:28:58.

strikes on the same location, the hospital, totally destroy it in

:28:59.:29:02.

multiple waves of attacks over the course of 90 minutes. If it was a

:29:03.:29:06.

bomb hitting that then close by, that discussion can be had, but this

:29:07.:29:12.

was targeted repeatedly. It is not something one can write off saying

:29:13.:29:18.

it is an unfortunate event. It is too bad this happened. It is beyond

:29:19.:29:23.

that. What is the policy now of announcing where you are? It is a

:29:24.:29:28.

complicated question, particularly in Syria. Over the course of this

:29:29.:29:33.

conflict there have been multiple instances, it has been a feature of

:29:34.:29:38.

this conflict, that humanitarian structures as well as protected

:29:39.:29:40.

human infrastructure has been repeatedly targeted deliberately,

:29:41.:29:46.

like schools, marketplaces, grain silos, clinics, bakeries. They all

:29:47.:29:52.

have signage. This structure did not have signage on the outside. What I

:29:53.:29:58.

am saying is the other ones. Prior to this we have known that they were

:29:59.:30:02.

hospitals, but in this case we do not openly advertise this is a

:30:03.:30:04.

hospital? Over 240 hospitals have been

:30:05.:30:15.

destroyed. One cannot say that this is an identification error of the

:30:16.:30:21.

structure. This hospital had been relocated from its previous location

:30:22.:30:24.

where it had been targeted and struck three times. People are

:30:25.:30:28.

afraid to say they are doing medical work. If you are an aid worker

:30:29.:30:32.

within Syria right now, and we are talking about Syrians by and large,

:30:33.:30:36.

they know the risks. They know they can be a target. Aid has been turned

:30:37.:30:42.

into a target, as well. We talk about the number of hospitals, an

:30:43.:30:45.

astonishing amount have been targeted and destroyed, what is the

:30:46.:30:49.

impact on health care more broadly in Syria? I have read some

:30:50.:30:56.

statistics which says 60% of the general public hospitals within

:30:57.:30:59.

Syria have been destroyed since the beginning of this conflict. In this

:31:00.:31:04.

particular instance we are talking about a small hospital with two

:31:05.:31:08.

operating theatres, an emergency room, and an outpatient department.

:31:09.:31:12.

They have seen 5500 external cases per month. 1100 emergency cases per

:31:13.:31:19.

month. You talk about the number of lives being saved. But when you look

:31:20.:31:23.

at the scale of the conflict, Medecins Sans Frontieres is

:31:24.:31:27.

supporting a large amount of structures within the country, but

:31:28.:31:33.

there are millions of people who have been displaced. Millions of

:31:34.:31:36.

people along the borders trying to escape. The suffering is

:31:37.:31:43.

unimaginable right now. Aleppo was referred to at the weekend as

:31:44.:31:48.

Stalingrad. We have been doing everything in our power to support

:31:49.:31:55.

as many networks as possible. Aid workers, doctors, in the suburbs of

:31:56.:32:00.

Damascus, this year alone the kinds of risks these people are taking

:32:01.:32:05.

means 17 separate medical structures have been hit in 2016 and it is only

:32:06.:32:10.

mid February. This is the fifth structure which has been supported

:32:11.:32:13.

by some measure by Medecins Sans Frontieres which has been hit alone.

:32:14.:32:17.

The pressure on people is unbelievable. And that pressure

:32:18.:32:20.

continues to grow with time. Things are just getting worse. Thank you

:32:21.:32:23.

very much. A debate on the topic

:32:24.:32:24.

of "Re-Radicalising Queers" is not taking place at Canterbury Christ

:32:25.:32:26.

Church University tonight, because one of the participants

:32:27.:32:28.

didn't want to share a platform So, is Peter Tatchell

:32:29.:32:31.

guilty by association, or should we applaud student

:32:32.:32:33.

activitists for doing what they can You do not witness the suffering of

:32:34.:32:47.

lesbian and gay people. Racist and transphobe are not words that

:32:48.:32:50.

normally spring to mind when we talk about Peter Tatchell. Your long

:32:51.:32:58.

history of anti-Semitism, homophobia, and attacks on the

:32:59.:33:13.

Muslim community... Doctor Greer had offended and insulted some activists

:33:14.:33:15.

when she expressed her view that transwomen are not women simply by

:33:16.:33:22.

their desire to be thought of as such.

:33:23.:33:22.

So, is Peter Tatchell guilty by association,

:33:23.:33:24.

or should we applaud student activitists for doing what they can

:33:25.:33:28.

I'm joined by Peter Tatchell and Paris Lees.

:33:29.:33:36.

Did you get flak at the debate? It was a debate about the future of

:33:37.:33:48.

LGBT politics. I am sad she did not attend. I would have welcomed an

:33:49.:33:55.

exchange. She has every right to do this. What I object to is the fact

:33:56.:34:01.

she labelled me a racist and a transphobe. And when asked to

:34:02.:34:04.

justify her views she failed to do so. There is the evidence. She

:34:05.:34:07.

didn't offer evidence even when asked. What has been the impact on

:34:08.:34:17.

you? We asked the NUS to come on tonight and they wouldn't. It is not

:34:18.:34:22.

just that you didn't want -- it isn't that she did not want just due

:34:23.:34:26.

to take part, but she didn't want others to take part, as well. I

:34:27.:34:31.

respect her. But this is not about me. This is about the rights of

:34:32.:34:34.

black and ethnic minority background people, and the rights of trans

:34:35.:34:39.

people. I have constantly criticised those feminist who disrespect

:34:40.:34:43.

transit people and oppose their human rights. I constantly challenge

:34:44.:34:46.

those who deny the human rights of black and Asian people and will

:34:47.:34:52.

continue to do so. Paris Lees, this debate was about gay rights tonight,

:34:53.:34:55.

it was nothing to do with the rights of trans people. We did defend trans

:34:56.:35:05.

people. So what is the problem with somebody taking part in a debate

:35:06.:35:10.

with Peter? I would like to say that Peter Tatchell is not a transphobe

:35:11.:35:15.

in my opinion. I think it is ludicrous to suggest that. He is a

:35:16.:35:18.

national treasure as far as I am concerned and one of the few people

:35:19.:35:21.

who spoke up for transgender rights on a public platform a few years ago

:35:22.:35:27.

and nobody was talking about this. I'm very grateful to him for that. I

:35:28.:35:32.

think there is a lot of anger towards Peter because of signing

:35:33.:35:36.

that letter. Not just signing it, but maybe your reaction afterwards

:35:37.:35:42.

wasn't that helpful. I think, you know, to call him a transphobe is a

:35:43.:35:47.

little over the top, but I think it is somebody getting carried away. To

:35:48.:35:52.

come to the issue of this, I think it is unfortunate Peter has been

:35:53.:35:56.

involved in this debate. But more broadly, yes I think it is right

:35:57.:36:00.

that people should not engage with transphobe O'. I don't think Peter

:36:01.:36:04.

is one of those people, but for some people there is no point speaking to

:36:05.:36:14.

them. -- transphobes. You take people on in order to have that

:36:15.:36:17.

debate and you win it when you are fighting for the rights of people.

:36:18.:36:22.

There is also an argument that marginalised people have had to

:36:23.:36:25.

explain themselves over and over again. There are certain people who

:36:26.:36:31.

are just not willing to engage in debate. They have heard the

:36:32.:36:34.

arguments. That is a different kettle of fish from Peter. This

:36:35.:36:39.

person has made personal attacks on individual trans people before. They

:36:40.:36:44.

have argued for conversion therapy, which has proved to be very

:36:45.:36:48.

dangerous. Those people should not be given platforms to air their

:36:49.:36:53.

prejudices. I understand the anger. Given the scale of violence towards

:36:54.:36:57.

trans people, the discrimination, all of the medical issues, the

:36:58.:37:00.

hurdles they have to go through the transition, and all of those kinds

:37:01.:37:05.

of issues... We need to be talking about that. But I also think, in my

:37:06.:37:11.

view, the best way to defeat bigoted prejudiced ideas is to take on a

:37:12.:37:18.

challenge by taking on people who say it. That is why I have challenge

:37:19.:37:22.

Germaine Greer and many others. I did a debate last year against

:37:23.:37:27.

Islamist extremists. I think I demolished them. That was far more

:37:28.:37:30.

effective than if I had stayed away and they were allowed to say

:37:31.:37:35.

whatever they wanted. But you can understand why people feel they

:37:36.:37:38.

don't have a power and they withdraw. Absolutely. I respect

:37:39.:37:43.

that. And I'm really sorry if trans people felt offended by me taking

:37:44.:37:47.

that stand and signing that letter. My intention was never to give

:37:48.:37:51.

endorsement to Germaine Greer or any other feminist who opposes trans

:37:52.:37:57.

rights. Those people are wrong. They are deniers of human rights. They

:37:58.:38:01.

are on the wrong side of history. I stand with the trans community for

:38:02.:38:05.

their writes, acceptance, and dignity. -- rights. The argument is

:38:06.:38:16.

whether their views should be aired. You believe that these issues should

:38:17.:38:22.

be taken on and argued down. Exactly. I am lucky because I have a

:38:23.:38:27.

lot of experience... With a way to get experience is to do it. Others

:38:28.:38:31.

may not have that experience, and are therefore in a difficult

:38:32.:38:36.

position. Germaine Greer has been going around saying the most

:38:37.:38:39.

disgusting, dehumanising things about trans people for decades.

:38:40.:38:44.

Completely unchallenged. Lauded in the media. You didn't have trans

:38:45.:38:49.

people on this show 15, 20 years ago, maybe not even five years ago.

:38:50.:38:54.

You are only aware of us because of social media. We had a number of big

:38:55.:39:00.

stories, transgender rights, trans people in prisons. We have made

:39:01.:39:06.

ourselves known, that we are visible, but nobody was challenging

:39:07.:39:08.

Germaine Greer. When I was in University six years ago I

:39:09.:39:15.

experienced family rejection, street harassment, I didn't blend in when I

:39:16.:39:18.

first transition. I was being messed about by the NHS. I faced

:39:19.:39:24.

discrimination at work. I had mental health issues. Had I known Germaine

:39:25.:39:29.

Greer was coming to my university, because of all the horrible things

:39:30.:39:31.

she said about trans people, because, let's face it, if Nick

:39:32.:39:37.

Griffin goes anywhere he is a known racist and is challenged. But if

:39:38.:39:40.

Germaine Greer is going somewhere, everybody gets excited about it. I

:39:41.:39:44.

think that would be enough to tip me over the edge and I'm not a weak

:39:45.:39:47.

person. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. Do you think there has been

:39:48.:39:53.

a generational change, and what is acceptable and unacceptable is

:39:54.:39:59.

different? And maybe the younger activists are even more successful.

:40:00.:40:03.

Maybe that's true. But I think that is a negative move. I understand why

:40:04.:40:08.

they say what they say. I have sympathy for those in the NUS when

:40:09.:40:11.

they wanted to defend the weak and the marginal. That is an honourable

:40:12.:40:16.

position to take. But I think they are wrong to try and close down

:40:17.:40:21.

debate, or exclude people, who they disagree with. The best way to

:40:22.:40:26.

challenge bigot is by taking them on, refuting their arguments,

:40:27.:40:29.

providing counter evidence, because that, I think, is the way to win

:40:30.:40:33.

hearts and minds. If we don't convince the bigots, at least we

:40:34.:40:39.

will convince the wider public. I think free speech has been expanded

:40:40.:40:43.

for people who never previously had a voice. You are nobody these days

:40:44.:40:49.

if you haven't been on a platform. Thank you both.

:40:50.:41:00.

who was at the Welsh open and rolling towards that holy

:41:01.:41:07.

Then he found out what the prize money was.

:41:08.:41:10.

He has just had a look at me in the commentary box and I have put

:41:11.:41:14.

Sometimes he doesn't try if it is not enough.

:41:15.:41:18.

He didn't look too impressed when you said it was only

:41:19.:41:22.

See he is not even going for one now.

:41:23.:41:26.

If they are going to pay you ten grand, it's worth a bit

:41:27.:41:32.

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