Browse content similar to 15/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight an exclusive UK TV interview with the mother of the Columbine | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
killer who breaks her seventeen year silence. | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
I remember at that point thinking if Dylan is really doing this, | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
At that moment it was when I really prayed for him to die. | :00:16. | :00:29. | |
And what would she say to the families of the dead | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
I have this feeling of wanting to say over and over again, | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
And I know that such a thing is so completely inadequate. | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
But I don't know what else to say, except, I'm sorry. | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
Also tonight we reveal and see evidence that Labour is telling | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
members not to hold debates about leaving Europe, | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
I think they shouldn't be nervous of having the debate - | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
if they have a strong case let's hear it. | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
We have got our case and we want to put it. | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
And veteran gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell on why people should | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
be allowed to say Transwomen aren't real women. | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
And transactivist Paris Lees on why they shouldn't. | :01:08. | :01:17. | |
What is it like to know that your own son planned | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
15 people died and 24 others were wounded | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
in the Columbine High School tragedy in 1999. | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
It was the first mass shooting of the 24-hour news era and pictures | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
were beamed live from helicopters circling the school, | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
and students trapped inside were interviewed live on air. | :01:39. | :01:46. | |
The two killers, 17-year-old Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
who was eighteen, eventually killed themselves in the school library. | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
In the aftermath the parents of the killers were excoriated. | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
For seventeen years Dylan Klebold's mother kept her silence trying | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
to understand what drove her 17-year-old son to kill | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
Now she has written a book about it, A Mother's Reckoning, | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
donating her profits to mental health charities, because one | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
of the many things she didn't know about her son was | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
This is Sue Klebold's only British television interview. | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
You may find some of the scenes disturbing. | :02:16. | :02:33. | |
Columbine High School lies 50 miles south of Denver in the shadow | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
On the 20th of April 1999 its name became infamous around the world | :02:37. | :02:57. | |
when two students, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, calmly | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
drove their cars, packed with explosives, guns, | :03:01. | :03:01. | |
parking lot and set about destroying the school. | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
This wasn't a moment of madness, it was a cold-blooded massacre. | :03:06. | :03:07. | |
The suburban high school turned into a killing field. | :03:08. | :03:16. | |
I was screaming, and crying, I was telling them not to shoot me. | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
So he shot the girl, he shot her in the head | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
One by one they extracted the dead and injured from the school. | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
This teenager was rescued from an upstairs classroom. | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
I have been a SWAT officer since 1980 and this was clearly | :03:31. | :03:32. | |
the most devastating and dramatic scene that I have ever seen. | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
And began -- tell me how the day began. It was still dark. I heard | :03:36. | :04:06. | |
Dylan thundering down the stairs in his boots. I was startled because it | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
was too early for him to be up. I opened my bedroom door and I yelled, | :04:12. | :04:20. | |
Dylan? He was at the front door already. I couldn't see him but all | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
I heard him say was goodbye, then he slammed the door and left. I was | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
very concerned. I woke my husband and said something is bothering him. | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
Would you talk to him later? My husband said I will be home all day, | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
I will talk to him when he gets home. And then what happened? About | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
noon I was getting ready to go to a meeting. I worked for the college | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
system. I had left my desk and came back and the message light was | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
flashing on my telephone. I thought I better listen to it. I picked up | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
the phone and listened and it was my husband, this voice, and he sounded | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
horribly upset. His voice was cracking. He could hardly breathe. | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
And he said, listen to the television, something horrible is | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
happening at school. It was such a day of confusion. Police came to our | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
home. We were asked to leave our home. We had to sit outside. We sat | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
on the ground all day. At that stage you must have known that it was more | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
likely your son was involved in the shooting, rather than someone who | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
was shot. We heard through the window. The television was on. We | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
heard that 25 people were dead. At that point I remembered thinking, if | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
Dylan is really doing this, he must stop. And in that moment I prayed | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
for him to die. I thought something has got to stop this. Whatever it is | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
that is going on. It took me a very long time to believe, months, to | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
believe that my son was actually responsible for killing and hurting | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
people. Up until that time I believe I was living in an extreme state of | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
denial. He was there, but he didn't really kill anybody, or, he wasn't | :06:14. | :06:22. | |
what they were saying. That it was Eric? Yes, that it was Eric. Dylan | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
Klebold lived in this house for almost a decade. In 1997 Dylan | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
Klebold and Eric Harris were caught stealing. It hit the family hard. | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
Dylan Became withdrawn and hostile but still took part of family | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
events, held down a part-time job, he went to the school prom three | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
days before the massacre. But what his parents didn't know was that | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
Dylan Klebold has been suicidal for two years. He poured all of his rage | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
and upset into diaries and journals that were only handed to the family | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
by the police almost two years after the killing. What they were also | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
unaware of was that Dylan had hidden a sawn off shotgun and ammunition in | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
his bedroom. Police later said the killers had prepared 99 home-made | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
explosive devices for use in the attack. It must have been a strange | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
thing to compute, to know that between them Dylan and Eric Harris | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
were going to blow up the whole school. That was one of the most | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
difficult moments of this entire process. I had to go through so many | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
phases of accessing this, and accepting, OK, they were there, OK, | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
they hurt people, it was purposeful, yes, it was planned, it wasn't | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
impulsive. Then at the police report to finally learned that their plan | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
has been to kill everybody in the school but their plan failed. When I | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
thought of that, and thought of the magnitude, I really did not think I | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
was going to live through it. You come in the book, sometimes | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
described him as withdrawn and monosyllabic, and that he took | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
failure heart. Whether certain signs that you missed? -- failure hard. In | :08:14. | :08:27. | |
his junior year several things happened. He got arrested, he got in | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
trouble at school, he has scratched a locker at school... I did not | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
recognise that those things meant there was a potential life and death | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
situation. I didn't recognise that these were possible signs of a | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
mental condition. According to FBI records there have | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
been 50 mass murders, or attempted mass murders, in schools in America | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
since Columbine. Sue Klebold made one stipulation before our | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
interview, that we would not show the CCTV pictures of the boys in the | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
school during the massacre. For fear of copycat attacks. | :09:10. | :09:17. | |
You were asked to go to the Sheriff's office six months after | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
the massacre to be showing videos. Tell me about that. It was a | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
collection of the two of them talking about what they were going | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
to do. Horribly violent and hateful... I remember when I saw | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
that I actually stood up. I thought I was going to be ill. It was such a | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
shock. The person I was seeing on that film wasn't anybody I could | :09:41. | :09:49. | |
recognise. It wasn't Dylan. At that point did you have to face up to the | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
fact that he was equally responsible for Columbine? That's it. That was | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
the moment. That was the day in which I learnt that he was not an | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
innocent bystander who happened to get involved. This wasn't an | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
impulsive act. He prepared for this for a long period of time. And that | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
he was equally involved in killing people, and saying horrible things | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
to people before they died. In the aftermath of the massacre you had | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
support from friends and co-workers, but you also had a substantial | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
firestorm coming at you. What sort of things happened? I remember being | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
in a grocery store and paying with a cheque. The checker recognised my | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
name and asked me if I knew him. I said yes, he was my son, and then | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
she started saying in a very loud voice, you know, this was the work | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
of Satan, and just shouting at me. I am trying to bag my groceries and go | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
out. I would turn on the radio and hear myself being discussed, and | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
called disgusting. These were just things that happened. It created a | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
feeling, always, of being watched, being judged. This instant decision | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
from people who didn't know. People want to believe that it is something | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
as simple as bad parenting. Because it is a comforting fort. Because | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
nobody wants to believe that anything like this can happen to us. | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
-- comforting thought. I think it made people feel safer to believe | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
that we were all of the things they wished we were, or perceived us to | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
be, or imprinted on us, because then they could feel, well, this will not | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
happen to me because I am not like that. You also wrote to the victims' | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
families. I did, yes. A father wrote back to us about a year later, for | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
which I was extremely grateful. He wanted to meet with us. It was | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
profoundly comforting to me. It meant so much to me. I received a | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
letter from the sister of one of the girls who had been shot. And then | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
one of the mothers of the girls who had been killed also reached out and | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
wanted to meet with me. Those things meant so much to me. I couldn't... I | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
couldn't even begin to explain how it felt so wonderful to have them be | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
gracious enough, and brave enough to do that. | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
Sue Klebold now believes her son's suicidal ideas were a significant | :12:28. | :12:36. | |
factor in the Columbine massacre. Since 1999 she has become | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
increasingly involved in the issue of the suicide prevention. | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
You say in the book, I shall listen more and lecture less. In all the | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
years since I lost Dylan, I wish I had just said, you feel that way, | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
tell me about it some more, tell me about how you feel. I think I had a | :12:58. | :13:06. | |
tendency more to lecture, tell him what to do, to do what parents do. I | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
just wished I had talked much less. I read somewhere that you had worn a | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
piece of his clothing. You held onto things. I did wear his clothes for a | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
long time. My husband and I both did. It was just a feeling of | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
wanting him a little bit close. -- closer. | :13:31. | :13:42. | |
The tragedy, which was at the time the worst school shooting in | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
American history, cast a long shadow. Families were shattered. | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
Sons and daughters dead. One teacher murdered as he tried to protect | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
students. And those who were shocked that they and survived some of them | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
living with the most horrific wounds. | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
Have you been to the memorial? I have. What happened when he went | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
there? I have been quite a few times. What I do is I sit there and | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
in my head I talk to the kids, and the teacher who was there, without | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
the rest of the world, without parents, lawyers, community... I | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
just want them to know that I am thinking of them. And I will always | :14:32. | :14:39. | |
think of them. Do you want to take a moment? I am | :14:40. | :14:58. | |
OK. You talk a lot in the book about faith. Do you still believe in God? | :14:59. | :15:08. | |
Not in the same way that I did before. But I wonder if you had | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
religion before in a different way, whether you believe there is a God. | :15:15. | :15:28. | |
I don't know, I go back and forth. The one thing I have hoped for again | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
and again is that in some moment in this present life, or in the | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
position or in the future like I will see him again. I am hoping I | :15:38. | :15:46. | |
will see him again. The moment you believe in good and evil, you might | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
be in a different place. I know. A lot of people will read this book in | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
different ways because it means a lot to different groups, so it will | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
mean a lot to the victims' families, to the survivors, some of whom are | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
still in a wheelchair. What would you say to them? What do you say to | :16:07. | :16:18. | |
them now? I have this feeling of wanting to say over and over again I | :16:19. | :16:27. | |
am sorry, I am sorry, I am sorry. I know that such a thing is so | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
completely inadequate. But I don't know what else to say besides I am | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
sorry. I am just so sorry for what Dylan did. Thank you very much. | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
And you can see the full-length version of that interview | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
with Susan Klebold on a special edition of Our World on the BBC | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
News Channel this Saturday and Sunday at 9.30pm. | :16:54. | :16:55. | |
At the start of the week which may well define Britain's chances | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
of staying in Europe or leaving it, and as David Cameron | :16:59. | :17:00. | |
and Francois Hollande have a hastily arranged meeting in Paris tonight | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
ahead of Thursday's Brussels summit, the European Council President sent | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
Risk of break up is real as UK in EU negotiations very fragile. | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
"Fragile" is the word that could be applied to many elements of this | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
Both the Government and the opposition are divided, | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
and as our Political Editor David Grossman found out Labour officials | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
have been attempting to keep a lid on their party's Eurosceptics. | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
Labour used to be Britain's most Eurosceptic party. | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
Here is Labour leader Hugh Gaitskell issuing dire warnings about joining | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
We must be clear about this. It does mean if this is an idea the end of | :17:33. | :17:50. | |
Britain as an independent nation state. I make no apology about | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
repeating it, the end of 1000 years of history. You might say, it ends, | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
but it is a decision that needs care and thought. | :18:01. | :18:01. | |
I think it is anti-democratic, it is anti-socialist | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
Its employment rate is high and its growth rate is low | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
and looking at Southern Europe it has done terrible damage | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
We have been on a long journey with this. | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
Of course in 1983 famously we campaigned to pull out | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
of the European Union and that helped to contribute to our most | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
disastrous election result for a century. | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
Our pivotal moment was Jacques Delors's speech to the TUC | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
Congress in 1988 when he laid out the vision of a social Europe. | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
Bruised from their third election defeat the labour movement became | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
enthusiastic pro-Europeans almost overnight as a way of using Brussels | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
to fight for the rights of working people. | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
It is no secret that many of us have been sceptical about the benefits | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
Colleagues, in the short term we have not a cat in hell's chance | :18:55. | :19:01. | |
The only card game in town at the moment is in a town called | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
Brussels and it is a game of poker where we have got to learn the rules | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
By the mid-90s Labour had its most Euro enthusiastic leader ever, | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
but many particularly on the left were unconvinced. | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
They saw the EU as profoundly anti-democratic. | :19:22. | :19:31. | |
We have European bureaucracy totally unaccountable to anybody. The powers | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
have gone from national parliaments and they have gone to the commission | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
and the Council of ministers and these are serious matters. | :19:41. | :19:42. | |
Jeremy Corbyn did come down in favour of Britain's EU membership. | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
There would have been mass resignations and rebellion | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
I certainly let him know my view and this was a clear choice | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
The word "maybe" is not on the ballot paper as I have always | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
But I would give Jeremy Corbyn credit for being clear, | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
not just on one occasion, but on many occasions since he took | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
over the leadership, that he is going to campaign to stay | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
But is the Labour Party trying to stifle debate on the referendum? | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
Newsnight has obtained an e-mail from the party's general secretary | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
Ian McNicol warning constituency parties that they should not | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
be organising debates on whether to stay in the EU or not, | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
but instead get fully behind the party's policy of | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
The e-mail was sent to a local party officer who had enquired | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
about organising an in-out referendum debate. | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
The answer they received was a forwarded message | :20:39. | :20:40. | |
from Ian McNicol, the party's general secretary, which pointed out | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
that party conference had voted unanimously to support remaining | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
Rather than having a debate, the e-mail said, on whether to | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
support Britain's EU membership constituency Labour parties should | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
be campaigning to keep Britain in the European Union in line | :20:56. | :20:57. | |
with Labour's values and labour policy. | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
I think they should not be nervous about having the debate. | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
If they have got a strong case, let's hear it. | :21:05. | :21:06. | |
We have got our case and we want to put it. | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
We asked the Labour Party to comment on the e-mail. | :21:10. | :21:11. | |
They denied banning Labour leave speakers, but said it was right that | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
all official Labour events and meetings focused | :21:15. | :21:16. | |
on their campaign to stake in the EU. | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
With me now is John Mills, businessman and Labour donor | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
who will lead the Vote Leave campaign and from Birmingham | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
the Labour MP Emma Reynolds, who is a member of the cross party | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
Good evening. What is your reaction to the idea that the general | :21:31. | :21:43. | |
secretary is saying you should not be having any debates, you should | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
only be campaigning for a yes vote? That is very unfortunate. There are | :21:48. | :21:56. | |
a large number of Labour members who used to the Labour who have gone off | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
to Ukip and the Conservatives and they have a different view from the | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
Labour Party nationally. They want to hear the arguments on both sides. | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
That does not stop you voting to stay in it that is the way you think | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
the argument goes, but it is not right that the arguments for coming | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
out should not be heard. They should be. Surely you cannot be happy with | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
a directive that says you should not have a debate? I think the secretary | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
general was right to say that we have had that debate at our party | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
conference and we unanimously agreed on a motion put forward by the GMB | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
trade union that we should campaign as a party to stay in the European | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
Union. Jeremy Corbyn has been clear about that as well. We have only got | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
until the 23rd of June to make that case. I think it is right the party | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
leadership is saying to party members, the vast majority of whom | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
are pro-European, let's get on with it and get on with the debate. Hang | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
on. What John Mills was saying just now, electoral damage has been done | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
to you in 40 for Labour seats with Ukip finishing second. It suggests | :23:10. | :23:16. | |
there are some Labour voters who are Eurosceptic. Are you saying they are | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
out in the cold? No, what I am saying... You are. We are taking a | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
decision that we are pro-European and that has been the case for | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
decades. We should have a discussion with Labour voters about these | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
issues, of course we should. Can I be clear? You as an MP in your | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
constituency could not have a debate that had people who said leave on | :23:46. | :23:53. | |
the platform with you? That is the directive, you would not have that | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
debate? I have had lots of debate with people on the other side of the | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
argument, but the priority for me as a Labour MP is to go and talk to my | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
constituents about the decision they will have to make possibly as early | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
as June. That is my priority, but that is not to say I am not | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
debating. I did a debate last week with a Eurosceptic. Of course those | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
debates will keep happening, but the focus in the Labour Party is to make | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
the case to remain in the union, based on our values. This is a | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
whipped vote. There is nothing freak about this, there is no suspension | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
of the whip. Do you believe there should be a suspension? The Labour | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
Party has agreed that Labour Party members can act on either side and | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
come out if they want to stay in, so the Labour Party is not stopping | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
people. Let's talk about the Shadow Cabinet, are there people who want | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
out in the Shadow cabinet? Yes, there are people sympathetic to | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
coming out. I dead people in there now? Yes, several. Not vast numbers, | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
but several. They are stopped by Cabinet responsibility from | :25:13. | :25:14. | |
advocating coming out, and that I understand. But outside the Cabinet, | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
as in 1975, people should be allowed to canvas and support staying out | :25:21. | :25:30. | |
and staying in? Time is of the essence and it looks like there will | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
be a referendum vote in June. Will we see Shadow Cabinet people coming | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
out and supporting leading? I am not sure what will happen to be honest. | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
It may well be that Cabinet responsibility will stop that | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
happening. But that should not stop other people in the Labour Party, | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
including a substantial minority, from being allowed to express their | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
views. Why do you think we are not seen so much of Jeremy Corbyn | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
talking about Europe at all. It has been left at Alan Johnson, yet it is | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
one of the most important thing we are discussing in decades and Jeremy | :26:07. | :26:08. | |
Corbyn is not leading from the front. This is important. Jeremy | :26:09. | :26:15. | |
Corbyn and the entire Shadow Cabinet has signed up to a pro-European | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
agreement with MPs in Parliament and over 90% of our MPs have signed up | :26:21. | :26:27. | |
to that group. There are only a small number of MPs who want us to | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
come out. The vast majority, the consensus, is we should campaign to | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
stay in the EU. Jeremy Corbyn was very clear from the start of his | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
leadership that is a party which he is leading we will be campaigning to | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
stay in the European Union and he has been clear and consistent on | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
that point. I wonder how many speeches he has made in the last few | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
weeks about the importance of staying in Europe. He has made a | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
number of speeches in Parliament because he has had to respond to the | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
Prime Minister who has come back from a number of summits. But they | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
are both on the same side. How do you think Jeremy Corbyn is doing in | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
all this? He is under very substantial constraints because of | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
Cabinet responsibility. Whether that is where his heart lies is another | :27:17. | :27:17. | |
matter. Thank you all very much. The United Nations say that almost | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
50 people have been killed in missile attacks on hospitals | :27:25. | :27:26. | |
and schools in Syria, which it called a blatant violation | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
of international law. Two of the hospitals that | :27:30. | :27:38. | |
were hit were in Idlib, where rebels have taken control | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
of the province and where Syrian and Russian fighter jets | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
have been in operation. One target was a field | :27:45. | :27:46. | |
hospital supported by MSF, and the organisation | :27:47. | :27:48. | |
says its destruction will deprive At the Munich conferecne | :27:49. | :27:50. | |
at the weekend, the Russian Prime Minister Dimitri Medvedev denied | :27:51. | :27:59. | |
Russian planes had killed civilians but activists have blamed Russia | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
for all three attacks. I'm joined now by Andre Heller | :28:03. | :28:04. | |
Perache, Head of Programs at Medecins Sans Frontieres UK | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
who has been monitoring Good evening. What is the latest on | :28:08. | :28:20. | |
these attacks in Syria? From the information we have got today, there | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
are rescue operations to find more survivors and it has stopped with | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
nightfall. Seven people were confirmed dead within the hospital, | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
including patients and personnel. There are eight still missing | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
presumed dead that we are aware of and beyond that there are additional | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
patients who were in the hospital. You are pretty sure you were | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
targeted rather than it being collateral damage? Effectively it | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
was direct targeting and by that I mean there were successive air | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
strikes on the same location, the hospital, totally destroy it in | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
multiple waves of attacks over the course of 90 minutes. If it was a | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
bomb hitting that then close by, that discussion can be had, but this | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
was targeted repeatedly. It is not something one can write off saying | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
it is an unfortunate event. It is too bad this happened. It is beyond | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
that. What is the policy now of announcing where you are? It is a | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
complicated question, particularly in Syria. Over the course of this | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
conflict there have been multiple instances, it has been a feature of | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
this conflict, that humanitarian structures as well as protected | :29:39. | :29:40. | |
human infrastructure has been repeatedly targeted deliberately, | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
like schools, marketplaces, grain silos, clinics, bakeries. They all | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
have signage. This structure did not have signage on the outside. What I | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
am saying is the other ones. Prior to this we have known that they were | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
hospitals, but in this case we do not openly advertise this is a | :30:03. | :30:04. | |
hospital? Over 240 hospitals have been | :30:05. | :30:15. | |
destroyed. One cannot say that this is an identification error of the | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
structure. This hospital had been relocated from its previous location | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
where it had been targeted and struck three times. People are | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
afraid to say they are doing medical work. If you are an aid worker | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
within Syria right now, and we are talking about Syrians by and large, | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
they know the risks. They know they can be a target. Aid has been turned | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
into a target, as well. We talk about the number of hospitals, an | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
astonishing amount have been targeted and destroyed, what is the | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
impact on health care more broadly in Syria? I have read some | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
statistics which says 60% of the general public hospitals within | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
Syria have been destroyed since the beginning of this conflict. In this | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
particular instance we are talking about a small hospital with two | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
operating theatres, an emergency room, and an outpatient department. | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
They have seen 5500 external cases per month. 1100 emergency cases per | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
month. You talk about the number of lives being saved. But when you look | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
at the scale of the conflict, Medecins Sans Frontieres is | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
supporting a large amount of structures within the country, but | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
there are millions of people who have been displaced. Millions of | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
people along the borders trying to escape. The suffering is | :31:37. | :31:43. | |
unimaginable right now. Aleppo was referred to at the weekend as | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
Stalingrad. We have been doing everything in our power to support | :31:49. | :31:55. | |
as many networks as possible. Aid workers, doctors, in the suburbs of | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
Damascus, this year alone the kinds of risks these people are taking | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
means 17 separate medical structures have been hit in 2016 and it is only | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
mid February. This is the fifth structure which has been supported | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
by some measure by Medecins Sans Frontieres which has been hit alone. | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
The pressure on people is unbelievable. And that pressure | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
continues to grow with time. Things are just getting worse. Thank you | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
very much. A debate on the topic | :32:24. | :32:24. | |
of "Re-Radicalising Queers" is not taking place at Canterbury Christ | :32:25. | :32:26. | |
Church University tonight, because one of the participants | :32:27. | :32:28. | |
didn't want to share a platform So, is Peter Tatchell | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
guilty by association, or should we applaud student | :32:32. | :32:33. | |
activitists for doing what they can You do not witness the suffering of | :32:34. | :32:47. | |
lesbian and gay people. Racist and transphobe are not words that | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
normally spring to mind when we talk about Peter Tatchell. Your long | :32:51. | :32:58. | |
history of anti-Semitism, homophobia, and attacks on the | :32:59. | :33:13. | |
Muslim community... Doctor Greer had offended and insulted some activists | :33:14. | :33:15. | |
when she expressed her view that transwomen are not women simply by | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
their desire to be thought of as such. | :33:23. | :33:22. | |
So, is Peter Tatchell guilty by association, | :33:23. | :33:24. | |
or should we applaud student activitists for doing what they can | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
I'm joined by Peter Tatchell and Paris Lees. | :33:29. | :33:36. | |
Did you get flak at the debate? It was a debate about the future of | :33:37. | :33:48. | |
LGBT politics. I am sad she did not attend. I would have welcomed an | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
exchange. She has every right to do this. What I object to is the fact | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
she labelled me a racist and a transphobe. And when asked to | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
justify her views she failed to do so. There is the evidence. She | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
didn't offer evidence even when asked. What has been the impact on | :34:08. | :34:17. | |
you? We asked the NUS to come on tonight and they wouldn't. It is not | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
just that you didn't want -- it isn't that she did not want just due | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
to take part, but she didn't want others to take part, as well. I | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
respect her. But this is not about me. This is about the rights of | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
black and ethnic minority background people, and the rights of trans | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
people. I have constantly criticised those feminist who disrespect | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
transit people and oppose their human rights. I constantly challenge | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
those who deny the human rights of black and Asian people and will | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
continue to do so. Paris Lees, this debate was about gay rights tonight, | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
it was nothing to do with the rights of trans people. We did defend trans | :34:56. | :35:05. | |
people. So what is the problem with somebody taking part in a debate | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
with Peter? I would like to say that Peter Tatchell is not a transphobe | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
in my opinion. I think it is ludicrous to suggest that. He is a | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
national treasure as far as I am concerned and one of the few people | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
who spoke up for transgender rights on a public platform a few years ago | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
and nobody was talking about this. I'm very grateful to him for that. I | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
think there is a lot of anger towards Peter because of signing | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
that letter. Not just signing it, but maybe your reaction afterwards | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
wasn't that helpful. I think, you know, to call him a transphobe is a | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
little over the top, but I think it is somebody getting carried away. To | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
come to the issue of this, I think it is unfortunate Peter has been | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
involved in this debate. But more broadly, yes I think it is right | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
that people should not engage with transphobe O'. I don't think Peter | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
is one of those people, but for some people there is no point speaking to | :36:05. | :36:14. | |
them. -- transphobes. You take people on in order to have that | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
debate and you win it when you are fighting for the rights of people. | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
There is also an argument that marginalised people have had to | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
explain themselves over and over again. There are certain people who | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
are just not willing to engage in debate. They have heard the | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
arguments. That is a different kettle of fish from Peter. This | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
person has made personal attacks on individual trans people before. They | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
have argued for conversion therapy, which has proved to be very | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
dangerous. Those people should not be given platforms to air their | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
prejudices. I understand the anger. Given the scale of violence towards | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
trans people, the discrimination, all of the medical issues, the | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
hurdles they have to go through the transition, and all of those kinds | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
of issues... We need to be talking about that. But I also think, in my | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
view, the best way to defeat bigoted prejudiced ideas is to take on a | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
challenge by taking on people who say it. That is why I have challenge | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
Germaine Greer and many others. I did a debate last year against | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
Islamist extremists. I think I demolished them. That was far more | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
effective than if I had stayed away and they were allowed to say | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
whatever they wanted. But you can understand why people feel they | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
don't have a power and they withdraw. Absolutely. I respect | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
that. And I'm really sorry if trans people felt offended by me taking | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
that stand and signing that letter. My intention was never to give | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
endorsement to Germaine Greer or any other feminist who opposes trans | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
rights. Those people are wrong. They are deniers of human rights. They | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
are on the wrong side of history. I stand with the trans community for | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
their writes, acceptance, and dignity. -- rights. The argument is | :38:06. | :38:16. | |
whether their views should be aired. You believe that these issues should | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
be taken on and argued down. Exactly. I am lucky because I have a | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
lot of experience... With a way to get experience is to do it. Others | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
may not have that experience, and are therefore in a difficult | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
position. Germaine Greer has been going around saying the most | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
disgusting, dehumanising things about trans people for decades. | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
Completely unchallenged. Lauded in the media. You didn't have trans | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
people on this show 15, 20 years ago, maybe not even five years ago. | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
You are only aware of us because of social media. We had a number of big | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
stories, transgender rights, trans people in prisons. We have made | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
ourselves known, that we are visible, but nobody was challenging | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
Germaine Greer. When I was in University six years ago I | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
experienced family rejection, street harassment, I didn't blend in when I | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
first transition. I was being messed about by the NHS. I faced | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
discrimination at work. I had mental health issues. Had I known Germaine | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
Greer was coming to my university, because of all the horrible things | :39:30. | :39:31. | |
she said about trans people, because, let's face it, if Nick | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
Griffin goes anywhere he is a known racist and is challenged. But if | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
Germaine Greer is going somewhere, everybody gets excited about it. I | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
think that would be enough to tip me over the edge and I'm not a weak | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
person. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. Do you think there has been | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
a generational change, and what is acceptable and unacceptable is | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
different? And maybe the younger activists are even more successful. | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
Maybe that's true. But I think that is a negative move. I understand why | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
they say what they say. I have sympathy for those in the NUS when | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
they wanted to defend the weak and the marginal. That is an honourable | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
position to take. But I think they are wrong to try and close down | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
debate, or exclude people, who they disagree with. The best way to | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
challenge bigot is by taking them on, refuting their arguments, | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
providing counter evidence, because that, I think, is the way to win | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
hearts and minds. If we don't convince the bigots, at least we | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
will convince the wider public. I think free speech has been expanded | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
for people who never previously had a voice. You are nobody these days | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
if you haven't been on a platform. Thank you both. | :40:50. | :41:00. | |
who was at the Welsh open and rolling towards that holy | :41:01. | :41:07. | |
Then he found out what the prize money was. | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
He has just had a look at me in the commentary box and I have put | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
Sometimes he doesn't try if it is not enough. | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
He didn't look too impressed when you said it was only | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
See he is not even going for one now. | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
If they are going to pay you ten grand, it's worth a bit | :41:27. | :41:32. |