24/02/2016 Newsnight


24/02/2016

The French threaten to drive migrants out of Calais. Can anyone now stop Donald Trump? Who failed in Rotherham and why? With Mark Urban.


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The French threaten to drive out the migrants from their huge encampment

:00:09.:00:11.

at Calais. Where will they go? If other EU countries

:00:12.:00:20.

won't allow these people in, does that mean the European

:00:21.:00:22.

principle of open borders This Conservative former

:00:23.:00:24.

Police Minister says it's all proof As the Rotherham abuse scandal

:00:25.:00:31.

ends in six convictions, are the authorities also

:00:32.:00:36.

guilty of not having taken For the survivors,

:00:37.:00:38.

it's a day of justice. Today is the day that the world

:00:39.:00:41.

knows that they were always We'll ask the prosecutor

:00:42.:00:44.

and the local MP who was at fault. Also tonight, Donald

:00:45.:00:53.

Trump keeps winning. We won with poorly-educated -

:00:54.:00:55.

I love the poorly-educated. Can anything stop him,

:00:56.:01:05.

the ultimate outsider, from capturing the Republican

:01:06.:01:07.

party nomination? And what does American

:01:08.:01:15.

feminist Gloria Steinem make Do you think that Hillary Clinton

:01:16.:01:19.

is in trouble with this nomination? I mean, we are mostly raised

:01:20.:01:24.

by women and we associate And I think that is especially hard

:01:25.:01:29.

for many men. On the one hand, it's just

:01:30.:01:41.

one contest of many - the primaries of the American

:01:42.:01:44.

presidential election On the other hand,

:01:45.:01:46.

it is perhaps the moment. The moment at which all

:01:47.:01:55.

the doubters, all the commentators and, yes, America itself,

:01:56.:01:57.

is starting to accept that Donald Trump may have just landed

:01:58.:02:00.

himself in pole position to be the definitive Republican

:02:01.:02:05.

Presidential nominee. Has he seen off all of his

:02:06.:02:15.

contenders? Not quite but it's becoming increasingly hard to see

:02:16.:02:20.

how it could be anyone but him. Here is Emily Maitlis.

:02:21.:02:23.

He was meant to be the noisy one, the candidate that everyone loved

:02:24.:02:26.

to talk about, that then went quietly

:02:27.:02:28.

We won with poorly-educated - I love the poorly-educated!

:02:29.:02:41.

Nevada makes three wins in a row for Donald Trump,

:02:42.:02:43.

after New Hampshire and South Carolina.

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He won last night by a margin of 22%, a whopping 45.9%

:02:47.:02:52.

And whilst the Republican establishment have been waiting

:02:53.:02:58.

for him to disappear in a puff of smoke,

:02:59.:03:01.

many are starting to understand he's now looking like he may take

:03:02.:03:04.

the race all the way to the White House.

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At this point, it will be surprising if anybody but Trump wins more

:03:07.:03:10.

He has a fair to good shot in almost every state that is voting.

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He is not likely to win them all, but he is likely to win

:03:18.:03:20.

So, Super Tuesday could be the next in his string of victories.

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In second and third place were Marco Rubio,

:03:30.:03:32.

the Florida senator on 24%, and the Texas senator,

:03:33.:03:34.

This, you see, is where things get confusing.

:03:35.:03:42.

The field may have narrowed, there is no longer a Jeb

:03:43.:03:45.

Bush in the race or a Chris Christie, but their votes don't

:03:46.:03:50.

appear to be going to more a mainstream candidate.

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They are, in other words, tussling with each other,

:03:59.:04:01.

And, increasingly, it is not just about sentiment or vocal support,

:04:02.:04:06.

it is about the maths and that is where things get tricky.

:04:07.:04:09.

Trump has the lion's share of delegates from the first four

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On Super Tuesday the 11 states in play will divide those delegates

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Trump is believed to only be at risk of losing two

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Super Tuesday states, Arkansas and Texas.

:04:23.:04:27.

With Ted Cruz, that evangelist ideologue leading, if Trump comes

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If Cruz can't win his home state of Texas,

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you can pretty much consider it game over for him.

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Perhaps the curious thing is this: Donald Trump has

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morphed himself from a political insider, who was cosy

:04:43.:04:44.

with the establishment, into an unofficial defender

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He tells desperate people what they want to hear,

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Sadly, we are in a post-factual era, facts don't matter as much

:04:57.:05:06.

You can say pretty much anything you want and if there

:05:07.:05:10.

is a controversy, you create another one

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It takes someone who really understands the media,

:05:12.:05:16.

and particularly social media, to do what Trump has done.

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It's amazing and more than a little frightening.

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As any long-term watcher of the US election cycle will tell you,

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a candidate doesn't have to believe what they say at this,

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the primary stage of the race, they have to make sure there is enough

:05:30.:05:32.

room for manoeuvre to take it to the country as a whole.

:05:33.:05:44.

With me now are Ken Adelman, who has served in several Republican

:05:45.:05:47.

administrations and was a close adviser to Ronald Reagan.

:05:48.:05:50.

And Chris Henick who was an adviser to President George W Bush.

:05:51.:06:02.

Ken Adelman, I will start with you. This man has energised a lot of

:06:03.:06:08.

people, he has romped through the primaries, what is not like? What is

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not to like is what he says. Is not pleasant strain in American history

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of the know nothing strain, we saw it with Huey Long and George Wallace

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and we see it from time to time and it appears to all of the worst

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instincts in the American character. Hate the foreigner, unit, just have

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a prejudice against individuals. Tell people how much they are

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suffering and they don't even realise how much they are suffering

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and it's those stupid people in Washington, the jerks who are

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selling them down the river. It's kind of a modern version, or a

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Democratic version, of the stab in the back we saw in World War II,

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World War I. Chris Henick, presumably you don't

:06:55.:06:58.

buy that? For people on the side of the Atlantic who may have concluded

:06:59.:07:04.

he is a buffoon, what would you say is the substance to the man? Frankly

:07:05.:07:08.

the supposition before yesterday was that Donald Trump had a ceiling of

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roughly 30, 30 2%, but as your story just said he completely blew through

:07:16.:07:22.

that -- 32%. From my perspective it's less about the candidate and

:07:23.:07:25.

his voters and what they are trying to tell us. If you look at the

:07:26.:07:30.

invisible primary where the dual issue of trade and unfair trade as

:07:31.:07:34.

well as illegal immigration, all of the exit polls show just the

:07:35.:07:38.

opposite. They shared national security, the economy, as well as

:07:39.:07:43.

government spending. All of those were up around 30% in all three

:07:44.:07:48.

states we have had, and immigration is coming in at 10% in South

:07:49.:07:54.

Carolina, 12% in New Hampshire. A lot of this is new. To see exactly

:07:55.:08:02.

what the social and great economic divide is in America right now, its

:08:03.:08:08.

families under $1000 in income, they are trying to send Washington a

:08:09.:08:14.

signal, over six out of ten voters voted for a nonpolitician, so just

:08:15.:08:18.

the opposite is what the Republican primary voters are telling us. Chris

:08:19.:08:22.

Henick, do you think he can have a similarly energising effect on the

:08:23.:08:27.

right to the one that Barack Obama had in terms of getting people to

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the polls who would not normally go? The only similarity I see right now

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is how well he is looking in demographics. Blessed are the

:08:37.:08:41.

educated, or whatever, he's going through all of those segmentation is

:08:42.:08:45.

in polling and seeing how well he's doing. Somewhat similar to what

:08:46.:08:50.

Barack Obama did in history election, a demographic and pain and

:08:51.:08:56.

less geographic. For now, from a political science standpoint it's

:08:57.:08:59.

pretty fascinating to see how he is running in the tables. We have a big

:09:00.:09:07.

day next Tuesday, 567 delegates, there is still a sense in Texas,

:09:08.:09:13.

where Texas omitted Ted Cruz is on the ballot and Marco Rubio coming up

:09:14.:09:18.

in Florida on March 15. Both of those candidates want to have a long

:09:19.:09:22.

run with Trump but they are let to have their advantage -- yet to have

:09:23.:09:28.

their advantage. The Republican party has had

:09:29.:09:32.

challenges over the recent years, the tea party and the radicalisation

:09:33.:09:37.

of the party by the tea party. Does Trump mark a new stage in this? Is

:09:38.:09:41.

it still going to be the same party you were serving all the years ago

:09:42.:09:45.

in the White House if this man gets the nomination? Would you still feel

:09:46.:09:50.

proud to call yourself a Republican? I am a Republican but I wouldn't be

:09:51.:09:54.

practical so fake Trump republican and I think he would bust up the

:09:55.:10:00.

Republican party and make it a know nothing party like before. Chris was

:10:01.:10:06.

very good at telling you the issues that are coming up and what people

:10:07.:10:11.

think, but I would make the assertion that Trump's appeal isn't

:10:12.:10:19.

on issues, he doesn't understand any issues, as far as I can tell, except

:10:20.:10:24.

resentment and rage. And emotional outpouring, that those guys are

:10:25.:10:30.

really screwing us, we have to stop them and you don't know how bad you

:10:31.:10:34.

are. You've used the phrase know nothing a couple of times. Do you

:10:35.:10:40.

think in a Trump White House the smart folks would soon get him under

:10:41.:10:44.

control, or do you genuinely worry what it might mean for world peace,

:10:45.:10:48.

or the US economy, to have him in there?

:10:49.:10:52.

I haven't spent ten seconds thinking about that because when you look at

:10:53.:10:55.

the flow of American history over the last 75, 100 years, you realise

:10:56.:11:01.

there are only two elections where an extremist has been nominated. Was

:11:02.:11:05.

1964 with Harry Goldwater on the Republican side and 1968 with George

:11:06.:11:11.

McGavin on the Democratic side. It is very rare to have an extremist

:11:12.:11:14.

nominated. And secondly, is very rare to have an extremist

:11:15.:11:17.

happened in those two macro instances, they got trounced, they

:11:18.:11:23.

got absolutely demolished. Their party, the Republicans in six D4 and

:11:24.:11:26.

Democrats in 68, just got absolutely beat. -- 64. Chris is right when you

:11:27.:11:35.

look at the numbers and all of that, but there will be thousands of

:11:36.:11:42.

people running this year for senators, for governors, state

:11:43.:11:45.

representatives, mayors and older men. With Trump at the top of their

:11:46.:11:48.

ticket they are going to be sunk as well.

:11:49.:11:51.

We await all of those various polls with interest. Ken Adelman and Chris

:11:52.:11:54.

Henick, thank you for joining us. Last year the scale of child sex

:11:55.:11:57.

abuse in Rotherham was starkly laid out in an official report -

:11:58.:12:00.

it found that at least 1,400 children had been

:12:01.:12:03.

abused over 16 years. And the report also found police had

:12:04.:12:04.

"regarded many child Well, today, justice began to be

:12:05.:12:07.

served in this sorry tale. In the first trial held

:12:08.:12:18.

since those revelations, a gang of four men and two women,

:12:19.:12:21.

including three brothers, have been convicted of serious child

:12:22.:12:24.

sexual abuse crimes. Alison Holt has been

:12:25.:12:26.

following the trial. Rotherham in South Yorkshire, a town

:12:27.:12:47.

where young lives have been destroyed by sexual exploitation,

:12:48.:12:51.

where families have been torn apart by crimes ignored for too long. Only

:12:52.:12:55.

with today's convictions can the full story begins to be told.

:12:56.:13:03.

Jessica, not her real name, was one of 15 young women who gave evidence

:13:04.:13:10.

at the trial. I first met Ash just after my 14th birthday and I was

:13:11.:13:17.

mentally and physically and sexually abused for two macro years. He was

:13:18.:13:21.

violent towards me, and there were times I thought he was going to kill

:13:22.:13:26.

me. Ash is Hachette is a common who began abusing her in 1999. The court

:13:27.:13:31.

was told he was the leader of a violent criminal gang dealing in

:13:32.:13:34.

drugs and girls and he operated with his brothers. Their uncle was

:13:35.:13:46.

convicted of conspiracy to rape. They were very powerful for a long

:13:47.:13:49.

time. They had connections within the police, within the council, they

:13:50.:13:57.

totally dominated Rotherham. One of the pimping networks being

:13:58.:14:00.

highlighted by this Leeds charity in the early to thousands was the same

:14:01.:14:05.

Phil Mack. The three brothers threatened anyone who got in their

:14:06.:14:11.

way. Threats to the girl, if you don't do what I tell you I will

:14:12.:14:15.

break your mum and burn your house, threats to families have often

:14:16.:14:20.

happened. Our worker who was there had threats against her, they would

:14:21.:14:23.

phone of the family and they would say they know that woman is there

:14:24.:14:28.

again and we have seen her car. The information the parents support

:14:29.:14:31.

worker collected about the men and their associates was passed to the

:14:32.:14:34.

police. She was forever collecting phone numbers, car registration

:14:35.:14:41.

numbers, locations of where things happened. She knew about the use of

:14:42.:14:47.

drugs. And this was recorded, and this was handed over, but actually

:14:48.:14:53.

elicited virtually no response. Local headlines in 2003 showed the

:14:54.:14:59.

brothers had convictions for drugs, violence and intimidation. And

:15:00.:15:02.

documents obtained by the BBC detailed a high risk conference

:15:03.:15:09.

about Asher same two years before that. The probation service said he

:15:10.:15:14.

had been actively involved in befriending and targeting young

:15:15.:15:16.

teenage girls and had possible links to child prostitution in Rotherham.

:15:17.:15:22.

Minutes from a multi-agency meeting described him as representing a high

:15:23.:15:26.

risk of harm to the public. This document describes Ash Hussein is a

:15:27.:15:33.

classic pimping controls young girls and also says the police are making

:15:34.:15:36.

no ongoing checks and that there is no hard evidence of any offence for

:15:37.:15:42.

them to pursue. I think we need to have a catch-up this afternoon. At

:15:43.:15:47.

that time Doug Whiteman and Jayne Senior worked at the risky business

:15:48.:15:51.

youth project in Rotherham. The team was also pulling together

:15:52.:15:55.

information about the sames which was also going to the police. We had

:15:56.:16:00.

been collecting information since 1999. Lots of information. Enough

:16:01.:16:08.

information for them to have been arrested? I believe so, yes. Or at

:16:09.:16:14.

least investigated. A report setting out the links between more than 50

:16:15.:16:18.

girls in Rotherham and the brothers were sent to the police and council

:16:19.:16:22.

in 2002. It was written by Adele Gladman. She was safeguarding issues

:16:23.:16:28.

for a number of years and I don't think I've ever in counted the

:16:29.:16:32.

number of sadism and torture and sheer cruelty that we were

:16:33.:16:37.

encountering. Against children. They were being allowed to do it

:16:38.:16:41.

completely unchallenged summer and I think that definitely gave them a

:16:42.:16:43.

feeling of invincibility. The report was suppressed. Jim

:16:44.:16:52.

Stevens also raised the issue directly with the authorities.

:16:53.:16:55.

Again, there was no real action. For these men to be taken off the

:16:56.:17:00.

streets at last will send out a very, very important message to

:17:01.:17:05.

other potential perpetrators because there was a feeling up until

:17:06.:17:12.

recently that the Hussains and other groups of perpetrators in Rotherham

:17:13.:17:17.

were untouchable. They were raped by multiple perpetrators... In 2014, a

:17:18.:17:21.

report by Professor Alexis Jay estimated more than 1,400 children

:17:22.:17:25.

had been sexually exploited in Rotherham over 16 years. Her report

:17:26.:17:30.

said because gangs like the Hussains were of Pakistani origin and most of

:17:31.:17:33.

the victims were white, the authorities shied away from the

:17:34.:17:38.

issue. Do you think the Pakistani community

:17:39.:17:41.

has a problem? A distant relative of the Hussains

:17:42.:17:45.

thinks straight-talking is what is needed. These sort of men have a

:17:46.:17:52.

very negative and, in many cases, racist attitude towards white young

:17:53.:17:57.

girls. They view them as worthless, they view them as commodities that

:17:58.:18:02.

can be traded and that they can be abused in this abhorrent sort of

:18:03.:18:07.

way. For too long, as a society, as a Pakistani community, we have

:18:08.:18:10.

turned a blind eye to these sorts of crimes. Now across Rotherham,

:18:11.:18:14.

police, the council and local communities say they are working

:18:15.:18:18.

together. There are ongoing investigations into a number of

:18:19.:18:21.

South Yorkshire Police officers, the force says it wouldn't be

:18:22.:18:25.

appropriate to comment on them, but the area's Police and Crime

:18:26.:18:28.

Commissioner believes generally attitudes have changed. That older

:18:29.:18:32.

perception, which is where it all went wrong, that these were young

:18:33.:18:37.

people who were out of control, wouldn't listen to authority, asking

:18:38.:18:41.

for it, slags, slappers, we have heard all that in the past.

:18:42.:18:46.

Hopefully, that is all now gone and the victims now are seen as victims

:18:47.:18:50.

and as children. And today's convictions couldn't be more

:18:51.:18:53.

important for the girls who have survived the abuse and those who

:18:54.:19:01.

have supported them. Everybody needs to recognise the signs of abuse and

:19:02.:19:05.

act on it, and deal with victims in a proper way. These are people's

:19:06.:19:13.

lives. It is a day of justice. Today is the day that the world knows that

:19:14.:19:18.

they were always telling the truth. They are going to be believed, that

:19:19.:19:24.

what they said years ago was happening to them, it happened.

:19:25.:19:28.

That's the message that many in Rotherham needed to help them

:19:29.:19:29.

believe that there is real change. Joining me now is Sarah Champion,

:19:30.:19:33.

MP for Rotherham, and Nazir Afzal, former lead on child sexual abuse

:19:34.:19:37.

and Chief Crown Prosecutor Nazir Afzal, if I could start with

:19:38.:19:52.

you? What is the single biggest lesson that you draw from this case?

:19:53.:19:56.

There are so many lessons. We have lesson that you draw from this case?

:19:57.:20:02.

poor leadership, we have poor processes, we have the active

:20:03.:20:05.

discouragement of children, preventing them from reporting. We

:20:06.:20:11.

have pretty much everybody responsible for safeguarding let

:20:12.:20:14.

them down. That was because of the culture that existed at the time,

:20:15.:20:19.

namely that children who came from troubled or chaotic backgrounds

:20:20.:20:21.

wouldn't be believed, or a jury wouldn't believe them. I recognised

:20:22.:20:25.

that when I dealt with Rochdale. If we didn't act upon the information

:20:26.:20:28.

they provided, they would be subjected to abuse for decades and

:20:29.:20:32.

what we found in Rotherham is that these, this abuse has been going on

:20:33.:20:36.

for 20 or 30 years and people have been turning a blind eye. Was

:20:37.:20:41.

ethnicity a factor in that, can I ask you? I have given evidence to

:20:42.:20:45.

Parliament, I have said it many times, and I will say it again. The

:20:46.:20:50.

ethnicity of the perpetrators is an issue here. As Mohammed said in the

:20:51.:20:54.

report. Many people haven't been talking about it because of

:20:55.:20:57.

political correctness or because they don't want to give the

:20:58.:21:01.

far-right more ammunition. These men were getting away with it because

:21:02.:21:06.

they thought they could, because people were not listening to these

:21:07.:21:09.

young girls when they were talking about the abuse they were suffering.

:21:10.:21:13.

There should be no excuse at all for allowing it to happen. There can be

:21:14.:21:18.

no excuse. The reality is, however, that today there are children being

:21:19.:21:23.

abused up-and-down the country. Sarah Champion, on that point, about

:21:24.:21:29.

the political correctness going mad, how significant a barrier was that,

:21:30.:21:33.

do you think, in getting to grips with the full horror of what had

:21:34.:21:38.

been going on here? For me, I can't comprehend it. These are child

:21:39.:21:42.

abusers, I don't care what colour they are, what race they are. I

:21:43.:21:45.

don't understand why the people who were paid to protect those children

:21:46.:21:50.

didn't see it in that way. I know that both from the two independent

:21:51.:21:56.

reports, the Jay report, and the Casey report, they both said that

:21:57.:22:00.

was a factor. I don't understand in today's society, when children are

:22:01.:22:04.

being abused, why being embarrassed that you might cause someone a

:22:05.:22:10.

"Pakistani abuser" rather than a "child abuser" that that is a factor

:22:11.:22:14.

now. We have to address that. Why did it take so long to build

:22:15.:22:20.

prosecutable cases in this matter? I mean, I left the Service when

:22:21.:22:24.

Rotherham was about to get to the point of prosecution. Certainly,

:22:25.:22:29.

Rochdale is a good example. The others I dealt with after Rochdale.

:22:30.:22:33.

It was a view that this was too difficult. These young girls would

:22:34.:22:37.

never be believed by a jury, that they may not even come to court.

:22:38.:22:41.

That was nonsense. It was certainly the prevailing view that it was too

:22:42.:22:47.

difficult, when it was very easy, the legal system, courts,

:22:48.:22:50.

prosecutors, police officers, can do everything they can to make that

:22:51.:22:53.

experience better for the witnesses. We have learnt that now. That wasn't

:22:54.:22:58.

the case before 2011/12. And now we have a situation where I would hope

:22:59.:23:02.

that you will get many more of these successful prosecutions. Certainly,

:23:03.:23:06.

people just seem to think it was too difficult to do and they didn't do

:23:07.:23:11.

it. Successful prosecutions, clearly, send a message. In terms of

:23:12.:23:14.

your community, there are 26 officers who have been served with

:23:15.:23:19.

notice of potential prosecutions, how do you deal with that if you

:23:20.:23:24.

like, the clearing up of what's emerged from this case? Presumably,

:23:25.:23:27.

many of these people still are functioning in the police and other

:23:28.:23:31.

parts of the social services? That's the big problem that we need to

:23:32.:23:36.

address now. (A), how come for so long, for decades, when these girls

:23:37.:23:40.

were desperately trying to get their cases heard were they ignored? How

:23:41.:23:43.

do we now make sure that when people want to come forward, they have

:23:44.:23:46.

trust in the police, they have trust in the council, that they will be

:23:47.:23:51.

listened to. And to be honest, until the IPCC does its investigation,

:23:52.:23:54.

makes its findings and rules for or against some of the officers that

:23:55.:23:57.

are being investigated at the moment, I don't know how people can

:23:58.:24:03.

have that faith, so I urge them to hurry up and let's draw a line under

:24:04.:24:07.

this and move forward. I want to ask you both about moving forward, about

:24:08.:24:16.

the future. Cuts in policing, CPS, do you think this blunts or inhibits

:24:17.:24:19.

the effort to stop this happening again, or is it just not material in

:24:20.:24:23.

this case? Also cuts to local authorities. The services that we

:24:24.:24:28.

are looking forward to get justice and to prevent and protect our most

:24:29.:24:33.

vulnerable are working within a limited resource at the moment.

:24:34.:24:38.

People are having to make choices. They have to protect our most

:24:39.:24:42.

vulnerable. Can I ask you on that, does this show the system worked or

:24:43.:24:47.

is it in jeopardy? The system is working and getting better.

:24:48.:24:53.

Mandatory reporting is essential. I delivered a 30% cut in my budget.

:24:54.:24:59.

The numbers of the prosecutions we were bringing were increasing. You

:25:00.:25:02.

can do it if you work together. Thank you both very much. Back to

:25:03.:25:04.

that migration story. Are the wheels starting

:25:05.:25:06.

to come off Shengen - that agreement of free movement

:25:07.:25:07.

between member states? Tonight, European cohesion

:25:08.:25:12.

is looking increasingly fragile as the various countries within it

:25:13.:25:16.

grapple with how to deal Earlier, Hungary's prime minister

:25:17.:25:19.

offered his country a referendum on whether the EU should be able

:25:20.:25:25.

to impose a migrant quota upon them. In Vienna talks currently

:25:26.:25:31.

were attempting to coordinate border And on the ground, border guards

:25:32.:25:34.

are patrolling the frontier between Belgium and France -

:25:35.:25:42.

an almost forgotten sight Gabriel Gatehouse has been

:25:43.:25:45.

monitoring the developments from Dunkirk to Calais and joins us

:25:46.:25:50.

live from there now. There were extraordinary scenes at

:25:51.:26:03.

the borders of Europe today and in capitals, in Greece, on the

:26:04.:26:09.

Greek-Macedonian border, we saw migrants holding babies, blocking

:26:10.:26:12.

motorways, demanding access to Central Europe. The Greek Migration

:26:13.:26:16.

Minister said there was a mini humanitarian crisis going on in his

:26:17.:26:22.

country. The Austrians unilaterally deciding to restrict migration

:26:23.:26:26.

heavily along with some of their Balkan neighbours, at a meeting to

:26:27.:26:30.

which Greece wasn't even invited, the country that is struggling under

:26:31.:26:34.

the largest number of migrants. Austria and Germany trading

:26:35.:26:37.

accusations and now here, on the north-west corner of Europe, we have

:26:38.:26:42.

got the Belgians patrolling their border with France. The border isn't

:26:43.:26:46.

closed but this certainly isn't Schengen. Mark, the bonds that hold

:26:47.:26:51.

Europe together are being strained by this issue of migration. Quickly,

:26:52.:26:56.

you have been among the people in the camps for the past couple of

:26:57.:27:00.

days, do they think they will be imminently pushed out of there? What

:27:01.:27:04.

is their mood? They do. We can see them flitting across the road here

:27:05.:27:09.

as I speak, police behind me, shining flash lights into the

:27:10.:27:12.

bushes, the French are saying seek asylum here, go to registered asylum

:27:13.:27:16.

centres. They don't want to do that. They are looking for impromptu

:27:17.:27:21.

settlements, and there is another one near Dunkirk, another Jungle, if

:27:22.:27:23.

you like, and I spent the day there. If you thought the Calais Jungle

:27:24.:27:44.

looked grim, try this. This site is on the outskirts of Dunkirk. People

:27:45.:27:49.

live here, thousands of them. And soon, there could be many more. 25

:27:50.:27:57.

miles down the coast from here, the residents of the Jungle are waiting

:27:58.:28:00.

for a magistrate to decide their fate. It seems likely that that camp

:28:01.:28:06.

will eventually be bulldozed. And then what? Quite a lot - in October

:28:07.:28:13.

of last year, there were 400 people on the site. There are now something

:28:14.:28:21.

in the region of 3,000. I don't know what happened in court

:28:22.:28:25.

yesterday. No decision.

:28:26.:28:30.

There was no decision. It will probably come in next 48

:28:31.:28:37.

hours. When it does, we don't know where people expect such a large

:28:38.:28:42.

number of refugees to go. At the moment, all of those people share 42

:28:43.:28:47.

toilets between them. That is about one toilet for every 70 people.

:28:48.:28:51.

Toilets that often malfunction, sewage seeping out into the mud.

:28:52.:28:58.

No good. No good, yeah. Somebody else put it to me a little earlier,

:28:59.:29:06.

they said compared to this place, Calais looks like a Butlin's holiday

:29:07.:29:11.

camp. The reality is, that when the Jungle getting closed, most of those

:29:12.:29:14.

people will probably end up here, or places like this.

:29:15.:29:21.

Amid the squalor, there is a spirit of resilience, a new Dunkirk spirit,

:29:22.:29:25.

you might call it, minus, of course, the one crucial element - the

:29:26.:29:29.

flotilla of boats to take people across the Channel.

:29:30.:29:33.

As any parent knows, getting your kids to put their shoes on can be a

:29:34.:29:38.

struggle. But when your home is a tiny patch of tent, floating on a

:29:39.:29:52.

sea of mud, well... These girls' father used to be a policeman in

:29:53.:29:56.

northern Iraq. We are looking for a normal life. I think England is

:29:57.:30:01.

good. People there respect you. For me, it is too late. I'm about

:30:02.:30:07.

38-years-old, but I am looking for a life for my children. What about

:30:08.:30:15.

trance? -- France? France, you see. There is nothing here. That is life.

:30:16.:30:16.

Nothing. Ali is an Iraqi Kurdistan under

:30:17.:30:26.

Saddam Hussein he fled to the UK but after the invasion Ali went back

:30:27.:30:30.

home full of hope for the future. It's a decision he bitterly regrets

:30:31.:30:34.

now as his country tears itself apart. How are you going to get to

:30:35.:30:42.

England? With two small children? You have to go and try. Your hide

:30:43.:30:48.

the children in the truck? I tried to or three times but the ship

:30:49.:30:54.

control arrested me. It is not dangerous? It is too dangerous, it

:30:55.:31:00.

is dangerous. Are you worried for your daughters? Like I told you in

:31:01.:31:08.

the sea when we came to the place from Turkey you see people die.

:31:09.:31:15.

Maybe you will die, maybe you will not die, but if you stay in your

:31:16.:31:19.

country you will die, that is why you run, to have the chance. A short

:31:20.:31:25.

drive up the coast lies Belgium. In anticipation of more people on the

:31:26.:31:28.

move Brussels has introduced controls on the French border. The

:31:29.:31:33.

police are checking trucks and vans, any migrants are sent back to

:31:34.:31:40.

France. This may not look like much of a border post, but the fact that

:31:41.:31:45.

these guys are here at all tells you something, and that is that when it

:31:46.:31:49.

comes to the issues of migrants and refugees it's not co-operation

:31:50.:31:55.

that's at the forefront everyone's mind in Europe, it's every country

:31:56.:31:59.

for its self. The medical charity MSF are building a new mud free camp

:32:00.:32:03.

just up the road, where they hope to rehouse most of the residents of the

:32:04.:32:08.

Dunkirk Swamp but there will not be room for the overspill from a

:32:09.:32:13.

bulldozed Jungle. The police are trying to discourage any further

:32:14.:32:17.

expansion of the makeshift camp at Grande-Synthe. Anyone coming in is

:32:18.:32:22.

searched, building materials are confiscated, but they are fighting a

:32:23.:32:26.

losing battle. The network of volunteers who run this camp know

:32:27.:32:31.

what is coming and so they are preparing, using branches and

:32:32.:32:34.

pallets and cable ties, whatever they can get their hands on. This is

:32:35.:32:39.

probably not what the developers had in mind when they advertised their

:32:40.:32:45.

eco-quarter. It is certainly not what Europe's leaders in Visic when

:32:46.:32:50.

they signed the Schengen agreement. Gabriel Gatehouse in the Jungle. --

:32:51.:32:54.

envisaged. Joining me now is Damian Green,

:32:55.:32:57.

former Minister of State for Immigration and Minister

:32:58.:32:59.

for Policing, Criminal Justice Very well qualified to discuss the

:33:00.:33:05.

Jungle issue. You have the Conservative Party actively talking

:33:06.:33:10.

about the end of ever closer union as a theoretical proposition, at its

:33:11.:33:15.

ending as we watch in reality across Europe. Ever closer union was a

:33:16.:33:20.

thrust towards a United States of Europe which Britain never signed up

:33:21.:33:23.

to and explicitly thanks to David Cameron is now out of. There is

:33:24.:33:29.

clearly a crisis in the Schengen system, and the ability of other

:33:30.:33:35.

countries, we have never joined it, we are an island and we've always

:33:36.:33:38.

wanted to have border posts so we have control of our own borders and

:33:39.:33:42.

others didn't. There are clearly risks in that. The fact of this

:33:43.:33:51.

unprecedented refugee crisis, unprecedented since the Second World

:33:52.:33:55.

War, has put on the strains you have seen in those films. Everybody is

:33:56.:33:59.

going their own way, the Austrians hosted a meeting saying they will

:34:00.:34:03.

put a cap on the number of asylum seekers they will take and knock on

:34:04.:34:06.

down the line to Greece which people are talking about sealing off. This

:34:07.:34:10.

is everyone in Europe going their own way, the subsidiarity of the

:34:11.:34:14.

most muscular and unpredicted kind, isn't it? And not in an organised

:34:15.:34:18.

way. The problem is the countries inside Schengen haven't been able to

:34:19.:34:24.

agree a strategy on this. To some extent, and it's not easy it is

:34:25.:34:28.

difficult to blame people when they are faced with, as I say, this

:34:29.:34:32.

unprecedented crisis. But I think more of them should frankly have

:34:33.:34:36.

taken a lead from Britain, where our policy has been to pour money into

:34:37.:34:42.

the areas immediately around Syria, the countries immediately around

:34:43.:34:45.

Syria, and actually try and make conditions as good as possible there

:34:46.:34:51.

so that people don't feel compelled to make this very dangerous sea

:34:52.:34:57.

journey, that may end up in Belgium or France. One other aspect in this

:34:58.:35:02.

in the way that Britain and the referendum does or does not

:35:03.:35:06.

interlock with this is the question of contagion. People in Brussels

:35:07.:35:10.

have talked about this for the past year or two. They are concerned that

:35:11.:35:14.

other countries if Britain had a referendum would in some way see

:35:15.:35:18.

this as a starting gun. Lo and behold today we have Viktor Orban,

:35:19.:35:21.

the Hungarian Prime Minister, saying they are going to have a referendum

:35:22.:35:25.

on whether or not to take quotas in their country and other countries,

:35:26.:35:28.

even the Netherlands are talking about it possible more widely drawn

:35:29.:35:34.

agenda. It is having an effect, the British example, across Europe.

:35:35.:35:38.

Having a referendum on a specific policy area is not at all and are

:35:39.:35:46.

just. But the Dutch. I don't think the Dutch government is talking

:35:47.:35:51.

about it yet. I think the root of it needs to be that people who are in

:35:52.:35:59.

the Schengen system doesn't include us if they want to survive they will

:36:00.:36:03.

have to act collectively and if not they will invoke emergency measures

:36:04.:36:06.

in many countries and it will probably be suspended. The big Read

:36:07.:36:11.

a cross for us is what is happening in the camps that we saw and it

:36:12.:36:17.

seems to me because we have border controls in Calais, our border is

:36:18.:36:21.

much better protected than it would be if we had our border back in

:36:22.:36:25.

Dover, which it was only 15 years ago. There is no given that we have

:36:26.:36:30.

border controls in Calais. In that context do you agree with the Prime

:36:31.:36:34.

Minister when he said would find thousands of people potentially

:36:35.:36:38.

coming overnight if Britain to leave? Or was that just

:36:39.:36:43.

scaremongering? We could do, we signed the treaty with France as two

:36:44.:36:48.

member states of the European Union, two friendly countries that work

:36:49.:36:52.

together very well in northern France in trying to control this

:36:53.:36:55.

very difficult situation, particularly people trying to get on

:36:56.:36:58.

trucks. We spend money on security and so on. Who benefits most from

:36:59.:37:03.

that? We do. The French ambassador was on this programme is bad Wedge

:37:04.:37:07.

was asked what France gets from this she struggled to say what the

:37:08.:37:13.

benefits were for France. It seems they would be enormous pressure on

:37:14.:37:16.

France if Britain pulled out of the European Union to say, you know

:37:17.:37:19.

what, if the Brits want to get out of Europe they can have their own

:37:20.:37:23.

border controls back. A lot of those people would find it easier to get

:37:24.:37:26.

to Britain if we didn't have border controls in

:37:27.:37:27.

to Britain if we didn't have border get a Dover and they would have the

:37:28.:37:32.

right to claim asylum here. Damian Green, thank you. One thing

:37:33.:37:35.

is for sure the question of border controls and the future of Schengen

:37:36.:37:39.

is bound to be with us for months to come.

:37:40.:37:41.

You're a feminist or a masochist - so says Gloria Steinem,

:37:42.:37:44.

one of the most influential - and outspoken - feminists over

:37:45.:37:46.

She's never shied away from controversy, dedicating her

:37:47.:37:57.

most recent book, My Life On The Road to the man

:37:58.:38:00.

of 22, allowing her to live a life of activism.

:38:01.:38:06.

Emily Maitlis sat down to talk to her.

:38:07.:38:10.

Do you think when you step back the feminist movement is in good health?

:38:11.:38:17.

Yes, it is in good health. For instance, to speak for my country it

:38:18.:38:21.

is a major IT movement, it is no longer 20 crazy ladies, which is

:38:22.:38:22.

what we were. In the beginning

:38:23.:38:24.

we were regarded as very odd. Now all of the fundamental issues,

:38:25.:38:27.

of equality, including reproductive issues,

:38:28.:38:29.

are majority issues. And that's true in many, if not

:38:30.:38:40.

most, countries. And we are a global movement. We are very connected with

:38:41.:38:43.

each other across boundaries. How do you critique

:38:44.:38:51.

of modern feminism now? When you look at the, if you like,

:38:52.:39:00.

the new role models, is Beyonce a good role

:39:01.:39:05.

model for young women? She's a fine role model for anybody.

:39:06.:39:07.

She's a fine role model for me. It's about supporting

:39:08.:39:11.

each other in what we do best and what our dreams are,

:39:12.:39:14.

and how we feel about women It's not about sitting around

:39:15.:39:17.

and criticising who is a proper Does it become, therefore,

:39:18.:39:20.

harder for you to criticise women because you think that

:39:21.:39:25.

that is a betrayal of feminism? No, it's perfectly easy

:39:26.:39:29.

for me to say Sarah Margaret Thatcher

:39:30.:39:31.

was a disaster. You know, people were

:39:32.:39:37.

still putting milk at her funeral because she cut off

:39:38.:39:46.

the milk for children. The point is not to get

:39:47.:39:48.

a job for one woman, it's to make life

:39:49.:39:51.

better for women and And when you look at, for example,

:39:52.:39:53.

choosing a presidential nominee, does that strike

:39:54.:40:02.

you as something that should be Of course it's a feminist issue,

:40:03.:40:04.

regardless of who it is. If they were Martians it

:40:05.:40:09.

would be a feminist issue, because it depends

:40:10.:40:12.

on their position on issues. Do you think that

:40:13.:40:14.

Hillary Clinton is in Probably.

:40:15.:40:16.

It's deep. We're mostly raised

:40:17.:40:21.

by women and we associate And I think that is

:40:22.:40:23.

especially hard for many men who feel regressed

:40:24.:40:30.

when they see a powerful woman. They haven't seen

:40:31.:40:39.

one since they were So, there is a lot of deep

:40:40.:40:40.

feeling that it's just not right somehow, that it's

:40:41.:40:47.

against the feminine-masculine emotional because we are

:40:48.:40:50.

associated with childhood. Hillary Clinton has undergone

:40:51.:41:00.

more concentrated hatred on campus when she ran for President

:41:01.:41:07.

before there were young white men wearing T-shirts that said "Too bad

:41:08.:41:10.

OJ didn't marry Hillary." But we've seen recently

:41:11.:41:13.

the older feminists getting into trouble, Germaine Greer

:41:14.:41:19.

on the transgender question. Can a man who undergoes a biological

:41:20.:41:23.

change ever really call And her sense that actually

:41:24.:41:25.

it was about cultural conditioning Where do you stand

:41:26.:41:33.

on the whole issue? If you want to define yourself

:41:34.:41:39.

and I want to define myself we have to let other

:41:40.:41:43.

people define themselves. It is just clear that

:41:44.:41:46.

we have to do that. So, Caitlyn Jenner,

:41:47.:41:49.

to all intents and purposes, She is able to define

:41:50.:41:51.

herself, just as I am. It's not a simple

:41:52.:41:59.

question for onlookers. For instance, we had a well

:42:00.:42:03.

reported case of a woman, a very accomplished woman,

:42:04.:42:06.

who considered herself to be Because she had African-American

:42:07.:42:08.

siblings, I think, and had been living as an African-American

:42:09.:42:27.

and growing up, and there was a lot of discomfort around that

:42:28.:42:30.

on the part of African-Americans. So I can understand

:42:31.:42:33.

there is discomfort, but the rock bottom

:42:34.:42:35.

is we have to accept Evan's here tomorrow -

:42:36.:42:48.

until then, goodnight.

:42:49.:42:53.

The French threaten to drive migrants out of Calais. Where will they go? Are open borders dead? Can anyone now stop Donald Trump? Feminist legend Gloria Steinem on Hillary Clinton. Who failed in Rotherham and why?

With Mark Urban.


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