25/02/2016 Newsnight


25/02/2016

With Evan Davis. What's gone wrong at the BBC? Should the US Government be allowed to hack the iPhone? Plus the Calais migrants, #BlackLivesMatter, and Nefertiti's bust.


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Transcript


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Clues were scattered all over the BBC, so large you could trip

:00:00.:00:07.

And yet and yet, news of Savile's monstrous behaviour somehow never

:00:08.:00:13.

During the entirety of my time at, neither buying zero, wink, gesture,

:00:14.:00:30.

intimation or innuendo did any information come to me regarding

:00:31.:00:33.

Savile and his deviant behaviour. Dysfunction and deference

:00:34.:00:36.

at the corporation, We will ask what this says about the

:00:37.:00:37.

BBC. Also tonight, in a year of rage

:00:38.:00:46.

in American politics, we look at the Black

:00:47.:00:48.

Lives Matter movement. They killed him for no reason,

:00:49.:00:50.

and they've got every excuse in the world as to

:00:51.:00:55.

why they killed him. The prize is a back

:00:56.:00:58.

door into our iPhones. We'll ask if this is really

:00:59.:01:03.

about privacy, or just corporate You might have thought

:01:04.:01:07.

it was impossible to say anything new about Jimmy Savile's abuse,

:01:08.:01:23.

until that is, the BBC published its independent inquiry

:01:24.:01:26.

into the scandal today. The report from Dame Janet Smith,

:01:27.:01:28.

together with an accompanying one into Stuart Hall,

:01:29.:01:31.

runs to over a thousand pages, documenting the crimes,

:01:32.:01:38.

and just how close the BBC as an institution was to finding

:01:39.:01:40.

out about them. The clues were barely hidden,

:01:41.:01:42.

there were opportunities to spot them, suspicions and some inquiries,

:01:43.:01:45.

yet the knowledge of what Savile was up to, just didn't make it

:01:46.:01:48.

to the senior management. While that has echoes of other

:01:49.:01:52.

corporate scandals, in this case nothing was pieced together,

:01:53.:01:55.

partly down to a dysfunctional A lot of what's in the report

:01:56.:02:00.

is history, but a lot is current: on the BBC, fear of management

:02:01.:02:04.

and deference to on-screen talent. A serial rapist and a predatory

:02:05.:02:17.

sexual abuse are both hid in plain sight at the BBC for decades. It was

:02:18.:02:23.

a dark chapter in the history of the organisation, but a much darker one

:02:24.:02:29.

for all of you. Lord Hall apologised to the victims today Jimmy Savile.

:02:30.:02:33.

Dame Janet Smith's independent review heard testimony that 72

:02:34.:02:36.

people were sexually abused by Savile thanks to his BBC link. The

:02:37.:02:42.

report makes clear Jimmy Savile's abuse took place at a range of BBC

:02:43.:02:47.

premises, including here at the division centre. Some floor managers

:02:48.:02:51.

and producers saw or heard things. Some of the victims were themselves

:02:52.:02:56.

staff members, but the BBC was a hierarchical place, so their

:02:57.:03:00.

concerns were never passed on. Some staff members feared to blow the

:03:01.:03:05.

whistle on a powerful member of the talent. So Dame Janet Smith came to

:03:06.:03:10.

an astonishing conclusion, yes, people at the BBC knew about Jimmy

:03:11.:03:15.

Savile but not BBC management. Jim was in charge of light

:03:16.:03:18.

entertainment. You understand why lots of viewers

:03:19.:03:23.

will be in disbelief that given the volume of what happened, people like

:03:24.:03:28.

you did find out about it? I absolutely understand there would be

:03:29.:03:32.

enormous scepticism amongst the audience. I can only speak for

:03:33.:03:39.

myself and say that genuinely no information had come my way while I

:03:40.:03:45.

was in the post, which would have alerted me or made me curious all

:03:46.:03:50.

looked into potential villainy on SAvile's part. Even so Dame Janet

:03:51.:03:57.

Smith identified three opportunities to stop Jimmy Savile. She thinks his

:03:58.:04:02.

radio producer should have acted. On one occasion he was prepared to act

:04:03.:04:08.

as a provider for a young woman for Jimmy Savile to have sex with. I

:04:09.:04:15.

think he knew that Savile would have casual sex with teenage girls as and

:04:16.:04:20.

when he could get it. I am satisfied Mr Best and must have realised from

:04:21.:04:23.

their appearance at some of the girls might well have been underage.

:04:24.:04:28.

He admired Jim Lee Savill and I do not think it ever crossed his mind

:04:29.:04:34.

that he should report him. BBC leaders also miss signs about Jimmy

:04:35.:04:40.

Savile, like some of his public statements to the press which were

:04:41.:04:44.

dismissed as bragging. When you look back is any incident

:04:45.:04:47.

or moment in your own experience when you think there was a hint,

:04:48.:04:52.

something you should have clocked? I regret to answer you that no. He was

:04:53.:04:59.

in the building doing Jim'll Fix It for 13 weeks of the year. I

:05:00.:05:06.

regularly visited the studio and there was absolutely no evidence

:05:07.:05:11.

that occurred to me stop white one of the oddities they are looking at

:05:12.:05:15.

the BBC, when you come into work there is a crowd of people here

:05:16.:05:19.

outside radio one. Young people and often children. Today there are

:05:20.:05:22.

young people in school uniforms. They are here hoping to catch sight

:05:23.:05:28.

of stars. That is why it is so important the BBC needs good child

:05:29.:05:33.

protection policies. So, how good is the BBC a child protection, now?

:05:34.:05:38.

Well, Dame Janet Smith cited a third party review of the child protection

:05:39.:05:43.

policies and there is a clear message from senior management in

:05:44.:05:51.

courage and employees to raise their concerns. We will do more in regards

:05:52.:05:55.

to whistle-blowing for staff, what they can do and must do and where

:05:56.:06:00.

they can turn to to help. On child protection we will work with the

:06:01.:06:03.

NSPCC to get their advice on how to help us build on what we are

:06:04.:06:10.

currently doing. And we will, as Dame Janet asks, have another

:06:11.:06:17.

independent audit to see how those policies are working in practice.

:06:18.:06:21.

But one campaigner thinks the BBC's policies for child protection are

:06:22.:06:25.

not strong enough. I see nothing of merit, nothing that requires staff

:06:26.:06:29.

to report child abuse. Nothing that indicates abuse will be referred to

:06:30.:06:34.

the Local Authority designated officer. I can see lots of people

:06:35.:06:38.

who will be talked to, what experience they have in child

:06:39.:06:41.

protection is a wonderment, I don't know. I'm not necessarily know that

:06:42.:06:47.

the corporation who assembled this mess know either. Alongside the

:06:48.:06:52.

Savile report there was one on Stuart Hall, another BBC abuser.

:06:53.:06:58.

They found 21 victims and two missed chances to stop him. Two variations

:06:59.:07:04.

today on a terrible story. The BBC letting young people down. Chris

:07:05.:07:10.

Cook far. The BBC didn't want to put anyone up for our programme.

:07:11.:07:13.

Dr Peter Scott-Morgan is a management consultant,

:07:14.:07:14.

who in 2003 was brought in to the BBC to carry out a report

:07:15.:07:18.

on its culture and practices for the corporation's bosses.

:07:19.:07:20.

A little earlier I spoke to him about what he found.

:07:21.:07:25.

Well, it was a time that the BBC was trying to bring in some new values.

:07:26.:07:37.

Things like value for money and respect. So I was brought in over

:07:38.:07:42.

about the year to interview a very large number of people to try and

:07:43.:07:46.

understand what really was going on in the BBC. The unwritten rules, if

:07:47.:07:50.

you like, how to behave, the advice you would get a friend, how to get

:07:51.:07:54.

on and survive and so on. As a result of that various examples came

:07:55.:08:03.

up, and quite early on. An example of some people being more valuable

:08:04.:08:09.

than the values, being seen as so important that sometimes people

:08:10.:08:12.

would put up with behaviour that maybe they wouldn't consider putting

:08:13.:08:16.

up with in their normal lives. After a while, probably the fifth or sixth

:08:17.:08:22.

interview, just as an example, somebody threw in and Jimmy Savile

:08:23.:08:27.

likes young girls, and it just carried on like that. Almost just as

:08:28.:08:32.

a joke. After awhile then picked it up, just as an example, along with

:08:33.:08:38.

many others that had nothing to do with sexual abuse, and more and more

:08:39.:08:47.

people would just nod with the Jimmy Savile reference and move on. Almost

:08:48.:08:52.

as if it was an urban myth. I'm not sure many people necessarily

:08:53.:08:56.

believed it in its entirety, but it was just one of those things that

:08:57.:09:00.

certainly a lot of the people I spoke to, just joked about, as a

:09:01.:09:04.

background to indicate what the place was like.

:09:05.:09:09.

At the time it you weren't interpreting it as anything like we

:09:10.:09:15.

now know Jimmy Savile was up to? It was very inappropriate, possibly

:09:16.:09:20.

illegal, but certainly not rape, as you understood it at the time?

:09:21.:09:26.

Absolutely not. Nor did I ever hear an example that strong. It was far

:09:27.:09:32.

more with regards his predeliction for younger girls.

:09:33.:09:36.

Did you report this or was it not that sort of job you are doing? Did

:09:37.:09:43.

you report the specifics? Everyone had absolute

:09:44.:09:46.

confidentiality, but what I did report was the pattern of what I

:09:47.:09:50.

saw. That was the deal with everyone. They could tell me

:09:51.:09:54.

absolutely anything off the record, but if there was a consistent

:09:55.:09:59.

pattern, that I would share. Indeed, it in the summer of 2004, having

:10:00.:10:05.

already fed back to a number of people, I fed back, I refer to them

:10:06.:10:13.

to the top 300 people in the BBC, however they define top, and within

:10:14.:10:17.

that one of the patterns that I shared was why there was

:10:18.:10:25.

automatically a pressure for people to tolerate behaviour that otherwise

:10:26.:10:28.

wouldn't be acceptable. Did that go right to the top of the

:10:29.:10:33.

BBC, or the level where you wouldn't have heard of the people involved?

:10:34.:10:39.

Certainly some of the people I fed back the overall pattern to, a far

:10:40.:10:47.

more detailed and forensic version for what I had run through with you,

:10:48.:10:51.

as to why you could understand there was pressure for people to not just

:10:52.:10:56.

acts out, but then keep quiet about bullying behaviour, abusive

:10:57.:11:05.

behaviour, that was discussed at all levels. The overall pattern. Indeed,

:11:06.:11:13.

to Mark Thompson himself, because obviously that overall pattern,

:11:14.:11:18.

apart from anything, Mark was in the presentation to the 300. But also of

:11:19.:11:24.

course, I had one on ones with him about the overall pattern. The

:11:25.:11:30.

context of that. For the life of me, before you ask, I cannot remember if

:11:31.:11:36.

I used for Mark the same example I used for so many others and that

:11:37.:11:40.

they picked up on. But I suspect, even if I had, to the other senior

:11:41.:11:46.

people I fed back to, put in that context I earlier, I suspect that

:11:47.:11:52.

many will be hearing it as an example of the sort of behaviour

:11:53.:11:55.

that people conceptually would put up with and they would understand

:11:56.:12:00.

that someone like Jimmy was absolutely more valuable than the

:12:01.:12:04.

values. Did you find the BBC didn't listen

:12:05.:12:08.

to what you said or did you just think they would carry on in their

:12:09.:12:11.

merry old way because it was too difficult?

:12:12.:12:15.

My conclusion was, not a lot is going to happen. But I think, albeit

:12:16.:12:21.

with a bit of naivete, the reason that people were saying that was

:12:22.:12:28.

that they thought, we put in a sort of whistle-blowing system, we are

:12:29.:12:31.

training people exactly what sort of behaviour is a good, and therefore

:12:32.:12:35.

that is a very interesting explanation of what was going on.

:12:36.:12:40.

And thank goodness we have done those things so it won't happen

:12:41.:12:44.

again. I happen not to believe that and I think may have glibly said,

:12:45.:12:49.

what if anything happens, give me a ring in five years. I think Mark had

:12:50.:12:55.

gone by then. Peter Scott-Morgan, very interesting. Thank you.

:12:56.:12:56.

Pleasure. A remarkable drama is

:12:57.:12:58.

playing out in the US. The state wants Apple to produce

:12:59.:13:00.

a key that can unlock the phone of the San Bernadino jihadists,

:13:01.:13:06.

a couple who killed 14 Apple, quite simply,

:13:07.:13:08.

doesn't want there to be keys Big corporation takes

:13:09.:13:12.

on big country. If you're using your smartphone, be

:13:13.:13:27.

under no illusions, if government agencies really want to, they can

:13:28.:13:31.

probably find a way in. Their arsenal of tricks and hacks is

:13:32.:13:38.

growing. They can have big problems, though, if a phone is not being used

:13:39.:13:43.

and is locked. That is the situation the FBI finds itself in with Syed

:13:44.:13:54.

Rizwan Farook. Some believe the US government has been looking for such

:13:55.:13:58.

a clear case to pick a fight with the technology companies. Is

:13:59.:14:01.

particularly good turf for the Government in this case. You can see

:14:02.:14:05.

why a magistrate, as has happened so far, would be inclined to grant the

:14:06.:14:09.

Government's requires. It is why it is also really good in our system,

:14:10.:14:14.

in the UK system and others, there is a chance to fully litigate and

:14:15.:14:19.

ventilate this. Apple is rejecting to the initial order and filing

:14:20.:14:24.

legal briefs with other member of the legal Judiciary Committee why

:14:25.:14:28.

this is very bad president, even as probably all of us would like to get

:14:29.:14:31.

in and see what is on that particular phone. The key that

:14:32.:14:36.

protects the data on the phone is 256 alphanumeric characters long.

:14:37.:14:41.

How safe is that? This is the number of possible combinations. It would

:14:42.:14:45.

take more time than we have before the sun collapses to try even a

:14:46.:14:49.

fraction of them using all the computers on earth simultaneously.

:14:50.:14:51.

Obviously we don't enter such an computers on earth simultaneously.

:14:52.:14:54.

enormous mega code every time you want a phone our mother. We use a

:14:55.:15:00.

four digit pin code, maybe sometimes a bit longer, but that doesn't

:15:01.:15:04.

unlock the phone but the mega code, which then decrypts our data. But

:15:05.:15:08.

get that phone code wrong-un ten times in a row and all that data is

:15:09.:15:12.

wiped, and there is nothing anyone can do to retrieve it. The FBI's

:15:13.:15:18.

director was testifying to Congress today. He wants Apple to write some

:15:19.:15:22.

software that allows officers to have as many goes as it takes to

:15:23.:15:28.

guess the past code on the phone. I love Inc rich in and privacy. When I

:15:29.:15:32.

hear corporation saying we were going to take you to walk when no

:15:33.:15:35.

one can look at your stuff, I think that's great, I don't want anybody

:15:36.:15:40.

looking at my stuff. But I step back and I think law-enforcement, which I

:15:41.:15:44.

am part of, saves peoples lives, rescues kids and

:15:45.:15:45.

am part of, saves peoples lives, terrorists and we do that a lot

:15:46.:15:49.

through quarter orders that are search warrants, and a whole lot

:15:50.:15:53.

through search warrants of mobile devices. Are going to move to a

:15:54.:15:56.

world where that is possible in a more question mark it won't end but

:15:57.:16:00.

it will be a different world to where we are today. But Apple is

:16:01.:16:05.

fighting this request all the way. Their CEO says there is no such

:16:06.:16:08.

thing as a back door only the good guys get to use. If we knew a way to

:16:09.:16:15.

get the information on the phone that we have an order given, if we

:16:16.:16:18.

knew a way to do this that would not expose hundreds and millions of

:16:19.:16:23.

other people's issues, we would honestly do it. The only way we know

:16:24.:16:26.

would be to write a piece of software that we view as the

:16:27.:16:31.

software equivalent of cancer. We think it is bad news to write, we

:16:32.:16:36.

would never write it, we have never written and that is what is at stake

:16:37.:16:41.

here. According to opinion polls most Americans think Apple should

:16:42.:16:44.

actually provide access to the phone. After all, is the logic, if

:16:45.:16:49.

they are only after the terrorists and criminals, why should the rest

:16:50.:16:53.

of us care? Is not just the Government that can access something

:16:54.:16:58.

like this. One security is weakened, it is a nation state that wants to

:16:59.:17:02.

access your private information, medical

:17:03.:17:13.

information, banking is something to be concerned about. Cyber security

:17:14.:17:16.

is really important. We are really only at the start of this battle.

:17:17.:17:19.

Every year there are new smartphones released with better security built

:17:20.:17:21.

in. For more businesses and individuals this is becoming the

:17:22.:17:23.

main feature that they look for. Real test would be if there's an IS

:17:24.:17:29.

should build next-generation phone that even Apple and other phones

:17:30.:17:32.

can't get into. I think Apple would be capable of doing that. At that

:17:33.:17:36.

point it puts it back to the Government, not of what they might

:17:37.:17:42.

ask from Apple but what they want to pre-emptively ask of Apple and

:17:43.:17:45.

others, saying you're not allowed to design the following kinds of

:17:46.:17:49.

phones. Apple has until tomorrow to respond to the court order. Tonight

:17:50.:17:53.

their lawyers have filed a counter motion. How all this plays out could

:17:54.:17:58.

have a huge impact on everyone of us and how our high-tech societies

:17:59.:17:59.

work. David Grossman there. It is a

:18:00.:18:05.

fascinating dilemma. I'm joined now in the studio

:18:06.:18:12.

by the journalist Edward Lucas who writes about

:18:13.:18:15.

technology and security. And from Boston, Kade Crockford

:18:16.:18:16.

who is director of Technology for Liberty and edits

:18:17.:18:18.

the blog Privacy Matters. Kate, this is a game going, it

:18:19.:18:23.

wasn't even his phone, it belonged to the Department of Health, his

:18:24.:18:28.

employer, anti-killed 14 people. What is the best argument for not

:18:29.:18:32.

trying to open up his phone? This isn't just about one phone, in fact

:18:33.:18:39.

it isn't just about phones. If the F ERI succeeds here in obtaining this

:18:40.:18:45.

broad president, it will essentially give the courts and law enforcement

:18:46.:18:50.

agencies the power to issue demands on technology companies, not just

:18:51.:18:57.

Apple, but also Microsoft, medical devices, even devices that haven't

:18:58.:19:03.

yet been invented, to force these companies to send their users

:19:04.:19:12.

malicious code that is signed as if it looks like it is coming from

:19:13.:19:18.

Microsoft doesn't regular product of date, and that would harm physical

:19:19.:19:20.

security from millions of people all around the globe. The War also

:19:21.:19:25.

frankly harm US technology companies, because it would put them

:19:26.:19:30.

at a disadvantage, enabling foreign companies to create secure products

:19:31.:19:35.

that banks and manufacturers would prefer to use. But you are saying it

:19:36.:19:41.

is a precedent. Why can't you just say, if a court says this, then we

:19:42.:19:49.

cant it, but we weren't counted for the hundreds of millions that Tim

:19:50.:19:54.

Cook took about, why not then say in cases like this we need a key but

:19:55.:19:59.

not others? That is simply unprecedented, that is not how US

:20:00.:20:03.

courts work. If a US court rules that in a criminal matter, the US

:20:04.:20:07.

Government has a right to compel Apple to write malicious code to

:20:08.:20:12.

serve to its devices, it can do so in every type of criminal

:20:13.:20:15.

investigation, and that isn't even the subject of debate a more. The

:20:16.:20:21.

FBI, members of law enforcement, have admitted they are seeking this

:20:22.:20:26.

precedent. Let me put that Ed Lucas. In this case it was incredibly

:20:27.:20:30.

clear-cut to a lot of people, but it is not about this case, it is about

:20:31.:20:35.

many others. This is both a very specific case with some very big

:20:36.:20:40.

general applications, but one has to be very careful about jumping from

:20:41.:20:44.

one to the other. This is only possible because it is an obsolete

:20:45.:20:48.

phone where this sort of hacking tool that Apple is being asked to

:20:49.:20:52.

develop would actually work. If he had on a more up-to-date iPhone,

:20:53.:21:00.

this wouldn't work. So it is quite a specific case. I can see why the

:21:01.:21:04.

river to lobby is very worried about precedent, but this is actually not

:21:05.:21:13.

mandating a general back door, ruling out encryption, trying to

:21:14.:21:16.

undermine the whole way in which we depend on cryptography, it is a very

:21:17.:21:22.

specific case, and one can't blame the FBI for choosing a case they are

:21:23.:21:27.

going to win, but their arguments are strong. But the law doesn't work

:21:28.:21:32.

in a way in which this can't be a precedent, Kate says. Is that right?

:21:33.:21:38.

Can we say that in a small number of cases we don't want them -- don't

:21:39.:21:43.

mind having a key, but they can't have Akiva millions of cases? If we

:21:44.:21:51.

wanted to make them produce software that would bust open every modern

:21:52.:21:57.

iPhone, Apple would go back to court and say that this contradicts the

:21:58.:22:00.

fourth Amendment, there would be lots of other cases and aspects

:22:01.:22:04.

coming into play. But here there is zero privacy, because the guy is

:22:05.:22:09.

dead and he dead people don't have Agassi writes, and it wasn't his

:22:10.:22:13.

phone. So on these very narrow grounds, you have to be careful

:22:14.:22:16.

about saying this is a huge precedent. But that is not what the

:22:17.:22:22.

case is about. It is not about whether the Government can give the

:22:23.:22:29.

FBI access to a dead person's phone it is about whether the Government

:22:30.:22:34.

can compel a software company to write code to subvert existing

:22:35.:22:42.

security procedures. But the act which goes back to a few years after

:22:43.:22:46.

the decade of independence -- declaration of independence gives a

:22:47.:22:49.

broad pass to the authorities to ask people them, to help law

:22:50.:22:54.

enforcement, and if you make saves, you may be in a position where the

:22:55.:22:58.

government comes to you with a court order and says, make a skeleton key.

:22:59.:23:03.

But that has never happened, and the case the Government relies on in it

:23:04.:23:09.

re-that the court agreed with his that it is a very different kind of

:23:10.:23:15.

case that has to do with telephone companies, installing a technology

:23:16.:23:20.

to make available to the government information that that company

:23:21.:23:24.

already processed as a central part of its business. Apple is a central

:23:25.:23:29.

part of its business has said that it does not want to know what is on

:23:30.:23:33.

your phone, privacy is a very central part of why Apple has

:23:34.:23:38.

installed these encryption systems, so it is not camp arable at all.

:23:39.:23:44.

Just looking at one point, would you supported if the Chinese Government

:23:45.:23:48.

made a request like this, if it exceeds to an American Government

:23:49.:23:53.

progress, isn't it then under pressure to accede to every request

:23:54.:24:00.

in every jurisdiction? I think we have already seen these companies

:24:01.:24:04.

rolling over under pressure from the Chinese Government, and it is

:24:05.:24:12.

terrible, for instance the Yahoo employee who is in jail, and I wish

:24:13.:24:18.

companies were tougher on the Chinese, but I wish they were more

:24:19.:24:23.

obedient to American courts. I'm sorry, we are out of time.

:24:24.:24:29.

Last year, the slogan "Black Lives Matter" was tweeted

:24:30.:24:31.

Those three words came to be used as a protest against police killings

:24:32.:24:35.

The phrase gained so much traction, many have wondered if it can't

:24:36.:24:41.

transform itself into a broader civil rights movement.

:24:42.:24:43.

This year, of course, sees a Presidential election.

:24:44.:24:45.

Politics has taken some surprising turns and rage is in the air.

:24:46.:24:47.

So could Black Lives Matter shift the American debate on race?

:24:48.:24:50.

Mukul Devichand, the editor of BBC Trending, has been to the US

:24:51.:24:53.

It is 2014 and Laquan McDonald, aged 17, is high and carrying a knife.

:24:54.:25:11.

The rest of the police video was too graphic to show.

:25:12.:25:14.

He falls after one bullet, but 15 more pierce his still body.

:25:15.:25:19.

When it went viral there were street protests,

:25:20.:25:21.

then a murder charge for the officer and the mayor,

:25:22.:25:25.

Rahm Emanuel, sacking his police chief and apologising.

:25:26.:25:35.

Black Lives Matter first trended during the Ferguson Missouri

:25:36.:25:39.

protests in 2014, over the killing of an 18-year-old,

:25:40.:25:41.

In the immediate aftermath I was just filled with rage

:25:42.:25:48.

and I was sitting on my couch on a Friday night watching my social

:25:49.:25:51.

media feed, just streamed these horrific images.

:25:52.:25:55.

It looks like a war zone and it was incomprehensible to me

:25:56.:25:58.

that this was happening five hours away from my home.

:25:59.:26:03.

Black Lives Matter emerged in response to the extra judicial

:26:04.:26:05.

killing of an armed black man by police.

:26:06.:26:10.

An underlying anger had been unleashed.

:26:11.:26:16.

Of the thousand-plus people killed by deadly police force across the US

:26:17.:26:21.

last year, a disproportionate number were black.

:26:22.:26:26.

Black civil rights movements changed America forever.

:26:27.:26:28.

But the new generation say some of them sold out.

:26:29.:26:33.

At some point the civil rights movement of our forefathers had

:26:34.:26:36.

People had to get paid, people had to get jobs,

:26:37.:26:44.

and that money came from outside of the black community.

:26:45.:26:47.

I think that is part of the reason why the work did not go far enough.

:26:48.:26:53.

Reverend Jesse Jackson, Chicago's giant of civil rights

:26:54.:26:56.

history and a mentor to Barack Obama, used

:26:57.:26:58.

Learn to live together, and not die apart in some foolish

:26:59.:27:06.

If your focus is just to take over your local ethnic ward,

:27:07.:27:16.

it will be folk in that ward, but if you want to take over

:27:17.:27:19.

the city, the county, the state, you must see the role

:27:20.:27:22.

in relation to other people who share the same grievances.

:27:23.:27:25.

Urban, poor, high crime areas, like Chicago's south side,

:27:26.:27:27.

Today's actions are about attracting new recruits to the movement.

:27:28.:27:43.

We are riding the pink line through the south and west

:27:44.:27:48.

White trigger and black face be life risking.

:27:49.:27:55.

New cases emerging from all over the country mean

:27:56.:28:01.

The Cedric case, the Laquan case, the Dakota case, the Ronald Johnson

:28:02.:28:05.

case, all these cases are just straight cover-ups.

:28:06.:28:07.

It's a pattern and practice of the Chicago Police Department.

:28:08.:28:10.

I haven't got any, not only justice, but closure, information,

:28:11.:28:14.

Panzy Edwards came here to lobby for her son Dakota Bright,

:28:15.:28:25.

Teenagers can be armed here and the police

:28:26.:28:31.

In many of these cases the police will maintain that they are people

:28:32.:28:38.

who have been engaged in criminal activity, are known criminals,

:28:39.:28:41.

could that be the case with your son?

:28:42.:28:44.

They killed him for no reason, and they've got every excuse

:28:45.:28:53.

in the world as to why they killed him.

:28:54.:29:00.

It's sad, though, because they didn't hurt him,

:29:01.:29:02.

The police union point out that it is dangerous work they do.

:29:03.:29:12.

Over 200 people have been injured or killed in gun violence there,

:29:13.:29:14.

I don't think our officers are involved in shooting quicker

:29:15.:29:22.

Some of the worst neighbourhoods in this country are a stone's throw

:29:23.:29:29.

I'm not going to put myself in jeopardy, to hesitate when deadly

:29:30.:29:40.

But in the popularity contest that is the race

:29:41.:29:43.

for the presidential nomination, Black Lives Matter issues

:29:44.:29:45.

It has been heartbreaking and incredibly outraging to see

:29:46.:29:49.

the constant stories of young men who have been killed

:29:50.:29:57.

The father of shot teenager Michael Brown Jr is now a national

:29:58.:30:02.

A federal investigation and a Grand Jury probe

:30:03.:30:19.

into his son's killing recommended no charges be brought

:30:20.:30:21.

Still, his father believes that the rebirth of black

:30:22.:30:24.

radicalism, that his son's death helped inspired,

:30:25.:30:26.

Mike opened those doors for other people, if not him, to get

:30:27.:30:35.

We're tired, there isn't any more sitting down or sweeping the carpet.

:30:36.:30:42.

We are standing on top of the carpet now.

:30:43.:30:44.

Letting you know that we're not taking it any more.

:30:45.:30:53.

There is nothing new about poor, urban black communities like this

:30:54.:30:57.

taking issue with the criminal justice system.

:30:58.:31:01.

But the fact that Black Lives Matter unites in protest across America

:31:02.:31:05.

with each new killing, is an act of defiance

:31:06.:31:07.

that is already affecting the national debate.

:31:08.:31:13.

Well, joining me now from Washington DC is Danielle Belton,

:31:14.:31:16.

And with me in the studio, Stafford Scott, co-ordinator

:31:17.:31:29.

of Tottenham Rights and Race Advocacy Officer

:31:30.:31:30.

What is the difference between Black Lives Matter and earlier vintages of

:31:31.:31:46.

civil rights movements, do you think? I don't think that big a

:31:47.:31:51.

difference. If you look at the movements you had a that night young

:31:52.:31:59.

people like Julian Bond, were on the front lines fighting for liberation.

:32:00.:32:02.

The same thing is happening now. It just seems different because so much

:32:03.:32:06.

has changed and people's viewpoints have been coloured. People look the

:32:07.:32:12.

style Joe Clee back at the civil rights movement, but I don't see

:32:13.:32:16.

that much of a difference. Young people fighting for black

:32:17.:32:19.

liberation, fighting for change and freedom. Hot hot Black Lives Matter

:32:20.:32:27.

could change America, do you believe that? I believe it has in many ways.

:32:28.:32:37.

They're talking about issues around incarceration and issues around

:32:38.:32:43.

decriminalisation. I don't think we would be having these conversations

:32:44.:32:46.

about police brutality and body cameras if it wasn't for the fact so

:32:47.:32:50.

many people have taken to the streets demanding equality. To what

:32:51.:32:56.

extent has it come to the UK? Root first of all I have to say, as

:32:57.:33:03.

Danielle said, she was speaking about young people, I am not so

:33:04.:33:09.

you're more into social media. But Black Lives Matter is important. I

:33:10.:33:15.

think we spiritually support what the brothers and sisters are trying

:33:16.:33:21.

to do in the USA. To some extent racism is a bigger issue in American

:33:22.:33:24.

politics than British horror ticks, correct? They talk about it in the

:33:25.:33:32.

USA and in the UK we have an English way of doing things, understated and

:33:33.:33:35.

sometimes and an aisle of its existence. -- than British politics.

:33:36.:33:47.

Because of the numbers of people being shot and killed by the state,

:33:48.:33:53.

by police, it is obviously going to be a much more significant issue

:33:54.:33:57.

there. But it is as significant for us here in the UK. As significant

:33:58.:34:06.

for the parents for Mark Duggan. Can we talk about anger? You talked

:34:07.:34:10.

about American politics, presidential elections, they are

:34:11.:34:16.

talking about Black Lives Matter. But one of the notable features, the

:34:17.:34:22.

white anger that has led to an outpouring of support for Donald

:34:23.:34:25.

Trump. Is there a danger that everyone will end up shouting and no

:34:26.:34:31.

one is going to be listening or hearing anything? A sort of

:34:32.:34:33.

dysfunction in American politics, perhaps? There is always a level of

:34:34.:34:39.

dysfunction in American politics. People are passionate and tensions

:34:40.:34:44.

run high. This is an important election year. We have a very

:34:45.:34:51.

un-directory stick - Mac uncharacteristic and boisterous

:34:52.:34:53.

candidate in Donald Trump, whose comments are often perceived as

:34:54.:35:01.

racist. I feel like the anger coming from the black matters... You are

:35:02.:35:11.

upset about any want of the action and progress. You want to see your

:35:12.:35:15.

politicians passed laws and make changes that will improve the lives

:35:16.:35:18.

of black people everywhere in the United States and by extension,

:35:19.:35:23.

other Americans. How dangerous do you think the Donald Trump movement,

:35:24.:35:34.

how dangerous TUC that -- do you see that to the black course? I feel

:35:35.:35:41.

like the discourse is kind of ugly and rather disgusting. It is

:35:42.:35:46.

concerning to me but I don't think it will prevail in the long run. The

:35:47.:35:52.

art of progress in the United States has always leaned towards getting

:35:53.:35:57.

better in regards to race relations, having these conversations and

:35:58.:36:02.

pushing for equality. So yes, things look bad, it sounds bad, but I don't

:36:03.:36:06.

think the Donald Trumps of the world will win this one. How useful is

:36:07.:36:14.

anger as a tall and how much does it scared the other side into counter

:36:15.:36:19.

reacting? That is a great question, but is it the right question? For me

:36:20.:36:28.

it is, is the anger justified? If anger is justified, the fact there

:36:29.:36:34.

is a kick back, how can that then be justified? It cannot be justifiable.

:36:35.:36:38.

If people are used to having privilege and are kicking back

:36:39.:36:42.

because they don't want to share those privileges with less

:36:43.:36:46.

advantaged people... And that only happens when you try to tell the

:36:47.:36:50.

State and explain to the state what is happening to your community and

:36:51.:36:56.

the state refuses to listen and denies and refuses to support or

:36:57.:36:59.

assist. That is what happens in the UK. We saw the memo, the advice

:37:00.:37:06.

given to Thatcher 30 years ago on how to deny our community any state

:37:07.:37:11.

support or help. The impact of those decisions is something we as a

:37:12.:37:17.

community living with today. I think anger is absolutely justified. It's

:37:18.:37:21.

just a pity it has to be shown. We hope and pray we don't have a young

:37:22.:37:24.

people being killed on the streets like we are seeing in the US, or

:37:25.:37:31.

that anger will definitely be shown to people throughout this country,

:37:32.:37:34.

regardless of their position. Thank you both very much.

:37:35.:37:39.

There's a German equivalent of the Elgin Marbles: it's the bust

:37:40.:37:41.

of the Egyptian Queen, Nefertiti which sits in a museum

:37:42.:37:44.

in Berlin, rather than in the vicinity of its creator.

:37:45.:37:46.

The bust was carved in the 14th century BC, and was found by German

:37:47.:37:49.

archaeologists in 1912, who discovered the house

:37:50.:37:51.

and workshop of the sculptor, a man named Thutmose.

:37:52.:37:57.

Now the Egyptians would love to have the bust back,

:37:58.:37:59.

but the Germans have guarded it jealously,

:38:00.:38:02.

So it is pretty amazing that two artists have succeeded in taking

:38:03.:38:08.

Here they are - secretly scanning - back in October last year.

:38:09.:38:13.

Having done it, they can now in effect produce the formula

:38:14.:38:16.

for anyone to make their own accurate copy of it.

:38:17.:38:21.

Well, Nora al-Badri, one of those artists,

:38:22.:38:23.

A very good evening to you. I am fascinated what planning and

:38:24.:38:34.

execution went into this. Take us through how you did it. OK, I will

:38:35.:38:40.

try. It was a huge collaborative effort. We had archaeologists

:38:41.:38:46.

working with us, as well as lawyers. In the end it took us only one-day.

:38:47.:38:56.

Two visits over six hours, circling around and collecting all the data

:38:57.:39:02.

that we then processed. It sounds a bit like oceans 11 or one of these

:39:03.:39:07.

movies. In the film at something has to almost go wrong before the plan

:39:08.:39:11.

is finished. Did anything almost go wrong whilst you were there? No,

:39:12.:39:17.

because we had the advantage of surprise, I would say. Nobody was

:39:18.:39:21.

expecting anyone scanning with a device. What I don't understand,

:39:22.:39:27.

this thing is obviously guarded and you must have been fairer a few

:39:28.:39:32.

hours. How did you not get caught? -- must have been there. How did you

:39:33.:39:38.

disguise yourself? We were very careful. The guards, they are doing

:39:39.:39:42.

a great job and protecting from taking photos and they are only

:39:43.:39:48.

looking for photographs. The audience was the visitors, the other

:39:49.:39:51.

ones who were there didn't really see us or catch us, because there is

:39:52.:39:58.

a selective perception which happens when you focus so much on sculpture.

:39:59.:40:05.

Your point was that really some of these ancient artefacts should go

:40:06.:40:11.

back to their home, correct? Our point was more about activating

:40:12.:40:15.

artefacts from archaeological and so-called ethnic collections, which

:40:16.:40:20.

means bringing them alive somehow to a new discourse and critically

:40:21.:40:26.

reassess the conditions of today and the whole notion of belonging and

:40:27.:40:33.

possession. It is not so much about restitution, having it here or

:40:34.:40:36.

there, because this is a very redundant discussion. It went

:40:37.:40:44.

nowhere. A very complicated answer, but you do think the Germans should

:40:45.:40:49.

give it back, or not? At the moment I wouldn't say that is so clear,

:40:50.:40:54.

because we are working on other narratives and new imaginary is, if

:40:55.:41:01.

you like. Talking about data, what we did, this is actually something

:41:02.:41:05.

that we would amount from the Museum, to make open access to

:41:06.:41:11.

everyone as a first step. Thank you very much.

:41:12.:41:14.

That's it for tonight, but we leave you with Professor David Crystal,

:41:15.:41:16.

who's discovered over many years that our national failure to perform

:41:17.:41:19.

Shakespeare with authentic Elizabethan pronunciation and accent

:41:20.:41:21.

means we're missing a lot of the jokes -

:41:22.:41:24.

plus it doesn't rhyme the way it should.

:41:25.:41:27.

So he's publishing his own guide on how to say Shakespeare properly.

:41:28.:41:31.

Here he is as John Gower, or John Goorrr if you like,

:41:32.:41:34.

To sing a song that old was sung, from ashes ancient Gower is come.

:41:35.:41:50.

Assuming man's infirmities to glad your ears and please your eyes.

:41:51.:41:55.

It hath been sung at festivals,

:41:56.:42:00.

on ember eves and holy days.

:42:01.:42:02.

And lords and ladies in their lives have read it for restoraties.

:42:03.:42:11.

when wits more ripe accept my rhymes,

:42:12.:42:19.

and that to hear an old man sing would to your wishes pleasure bring.

:42:20.:42:26.

I life would wish, and that I might waste it for you like taper light.

:42:27.:42:31.

With Evan Davis. What's gone wrong at the BBC? Should the US Government be allowed to hack the iPhone? Plus the Calais migrants, #BlackLivesMatter, and Nefertiti's bust gets pirated.


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