With Emily Maitlis. Will the politics of fear work on the Euro referendum? Evictions begin in the Calais camps, there's a new twist in the Tory bullying row, plus Artsnight.
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Tonight, is the EU referendum going to be won by fear?
And if so, which side stands to gain?
You could see interest rates go up, food prices go up, family finances
threatened. Those are risks, and I think people need to weigh up the
risks. threats to make their point,
how on earth do the rest of us French authorities start clearing
the Jungle at Calais after a court upholds
the government's plan What is going on is French officials
are going around with a map of France saying, you could live in any
one of these places, you could go to a migrant centre, but he is saying,
I don't want to leave. On Artsnight, Lynn Barber talks
to two comedians about comedy and mental illness -
Catastrophe's Rob Delaney and Ruby When you are really ill, you can't
move, and before that, you have a racing mind, but when you are on the
way down, you have a racing mind, and they used to show up to events
to say, I am perfectly fine, look how popular I am!
In a week that feels longer than a month,
Come down on the side of security and safety and certainty.
Because in this reformed European Union, we know
Of course there will be people who try to spread alarm and anxiety.
We had much the same sort of thing when the decision came
I have no other agenda, I have no other agenda.
I think it's quite likely that during that month they would say,
let's talk some more, let's see if we can reach
a different agreement, perhaps you could have a second referendum.
Net migration continues into Britain at
And from the European Union we have zero control.
It's not for me, for me, a matter of numbers,
it's a matter of the type of people we want in this country.
We benefit from scale, we benefit from the standardisation,
It helps us to reduce our cost base and allows us to be
We will be more secure, I think.
is impossible to argue that we won't be.
So, the white men of Westminster have spoken.
And now the rest of the country has to make sense of it.
But did any of the noise cut through?
Tonight, after a week in which both sides have deployed fears
of security, illegality, economic ruin, we're trying to make
sense of the strategy each side is using to sell their argument.
Do the characters, giant as they may be, pull you one way or another?
Or do you still feel like you're fumbling around in the dark
like an inexperienced teenager on a blind date?
Here to join us are Kiri Kankhwende, Jim Waterson, Toby Young and Anne
Lovely to have you all here. Kiri, it is extraordinary to think that
this time last week it was all kicking off. The idea characterise
the shape of the arguments? It seemed like Punch and Judy, like a
lot of men lining up to take shots at each other, and I think what has
been lost heart of this is that it is a momentous decision, one of the
biggest decisions many of us will make in our lifetime, and the big
issues haven't cut through. Why do you think that is? I think it has
been caught up in personality politics. It has been very dominated
by... Almost as if whoever is more popular, we should leave, when in
short fact, no one is putting the case for either side clearly. Do you
think this does feel like a personality contest at the moment?
We have Boris on the front of the times, and he has clarified their
that he does say that no means no at the end of a referendum, but when
you look at the timings, whether it was Cameron's day or Boris's. I
think there was a risk that the debate could have seemed like that,
particularly if not many heavyweights had come out on the
leave side, and I think that was Downing Street's hope, and I think
we saw from Michael Cockrell's video last week on Newsnight about the
1975 referendum, they managed to tarnish the No camp is a group of
cranks, so I think the fact that Boris has come out Philippe, then
gof, then David Owen, now Michael Howard,... Do you think it was
coordinated? There is a relay going on? I think Boris genuinely took
until Sunday night to make up his mind. But I think the fact that it
is now a much more even contest with big beasts on both sides, and it is
not just a war within the Conservative Party, there is Kate
Hoey in labour, and George Galloway and so on on the far right, and in
question Time yesterday, the panel didn't divide on the usual partisan
lines, but it crossed those lines, and the audience seemed a gauge to.
The Spectator gets a lot of hits when it glitches stuff about the
referendum, and I think the public are very interested. The momentum
has been with the outers, people like Douglas Carswell looking like
they had a new puppy, the excitement was palpable. But it is more
exciting to be on the outside in week one, if you have a campaign
called Remain, how exciting is that? The arguments will be fleshed out in
the months to come, and I know people talk about the personality
politics, whichever country you take with a representative democracy, the
argument end up with a head on them, there has to be a person where you
think, I agree with him, or I don't like what she said, I have changed
from him to her. The problem for the remains side is if you have all the
excitement and Boris Johnson, Willie or won't he? It is, all the drama is
there, the soap opera, but you still have to find a way, and the cat mark
Economist have done a cover saying what they think, and they are in
Economist have done a cover saying flesh on the argument, and there is
a lot of excitement coming from the other side. There was a poll out
this evening online which said that the Tabac three have got the edge --
the outers have got the edge. It shows a small edge for the Three,
but we still have many don't knows, if you ask how many people have
definitely made their mind up, I think half of them would still be
surprised that the referendum is even happening, so the idea we have
a clear result this far out would amaze me. We have plenty of time,
far longer than the election campaign was. You were in Scotland
for a long time. Do you remember the point at which the people who didn't
know suddenly new? There was a feeling that there was something we
could do, but the main thing was that there was a sudden positive ups
well that had been building for a very long time, the two years
grass-roots work they had been doing, going out to schools and
colleges, so from 2012 onwards they had been building up, whereas
essentially, a lot of the campaigns are still arguing amongst themselves
and only just really deploying their ground troops. And that is exactly
what happened, the excitement, people got a big shock by how close
it was going to be and that flipped up the last moment, so excitement is
a funny metrics, you can feel it palpably and it will drive the
debate, but whether it will drive the final outcome is less assured.
Do you think there are shy outers in this? Yes, online polls have it much
more level pegging, and telephone poles have people much more in
favour of remaining. People are saying, I am and outie, just don't
tell my friends! Nigel Farage says we spend all this money every week,
others say, we get all this money back, so what the public do? How do
we make sense of the figures, whether we will be more secure, less
secure, spend more, spend less? It comes down to basically through you
trust. So the data is irrelevant? On the one hand you are being told that
leaving would damage the economy, on the other hand you are told that
staying will, you know... So it is a case of going with the spokesperson
that you believe, and I think that is one thing people are crying out
for, in fact and mentioned that having this personality leads to
excitement, but what people are crying out for when you hear them on
the street is they just want to know that figures from a neutral source
that they can assess the arguments neutrally. Identity there is any
such thing as a neutral source in this debate, because facts and
figures are subject to assessment. Do people want to be told what to
think, you have to say to them, I'm sorry, you have to do some thinking
now. The politicians will have to put that across, because if you are
waiting for someone to bring you a tablet of stone, we would all claim
that what we represent will tell some form of the truth, but in the
end, people are going to have to face up to this themselves, it will
be a brave politician who says that, but it will probably need to be
said. State with us all, because when you haven't got figures, you do
have fear. Within hours of a date
for the referendum being called, Ian Duncan Smith claimed in a BBC
interview that the EU's freedom of movement left the door open
to a terrorist attack similar Counter terrorism experts
slapped him down, accusing him But it is this scaremongering
on both sides that is being widely deployed as the weapon of choice
to bring people round. Five, seven, six... Some of the most
striking political messages have been decidedly negative, like this
American ad from 96 D4, an attack on Barry Goldwater, a Republican seen
as gung ho on nuclear warfare. -- from 1964. These are the stakes! The
European referendum will probably be a little less apocalypse Vic. But
this former referendum campaign winner says the in campaign, which
he supports, still has to be pretty tough. When it comes down to it,
referendums are an offer of change, and three out of four file because
people don't want to take the risk. So you have to pile up the risk,
show the risk. The campaign for the status quo in Scotland did end up
more negative, the consequence of extensive research by experts now
working for the campaign to stay in the EU. During the Scottish
independence referendum, the No campaign who were in favour of
staying in did some research and their opponents on themselves and
their opponents, they found that the Yes campaign was associated with
ideas like ambition, Pat Richards, pride, but also risk, but the
campaign of staying within the union was associated with ideas like
financial security, job security, peace of mind, but also more of the
same. See can see why it is that one campaign played up the changes, and
the other campaign ended up sending quite negative, it was to use a term
coined by a member of their own staff, Project Fear. Always in all
polling if you ask people if they like negative campaigning, they
don't like it. Everybody dislikes it, but if you then ask them about
how their behaviour is changed by it, they hate it, but it affects
them. The in campaign has arranged public letters from bosses and
generals to seek to make a case that will be very familiar to Scots.
Better Together Fridjonsson security. There is concern, though,
that these messages are overblown. People should be aware of the down
and upsides, but what I object to is the exaggeration of the fears about
what might happen, and the exaggeration of the coercing of
members of the establishment of retired military types and current
officials and the military to rig the referendum against Brett --
Brexit. The line between fair comment on opponent and unfair
scaremongering is a very subjective. Some of your critics would argue
that your concerns about how free movement within the European Union
undermines our security... I don't think that is an exaggerated way of
putting it. It is rather people to make up their own minds, but that is
simply anchoring what I am saying in reality. A vote cast out of fear is
as valid as one cast from Hope. You can wish for a gentler politics, but
as a way of defending incumbents or the status quo, boy can going
negative be effective. This brutal ad help the older George bush crush
Michael Dukakis in 1988. While out, many committed other
crimes like Many are still at large. Can hope
beat that? The
project fear, are we? Lets pick up with our panel again -
Jim Waterson, Kiri Kankawende, If you were going to embrace project
fear, would you say it is a powerful electoral tool? Does it work on the
public? There were only two big messages in referendums that
coalesce around a single issue. One is its time for change, the other
is, don't take any risks, don't throw it all away. To that extent,
as your film recollected, people will say, I don't like the sound of
something called project fear. It does work as long as you keep it
culturally in line with where people feel comfortable. The problem
perhaps this week when we got to something... People will choose
their own thing... I didn't like the lead involving generals. I
their own thing... I didn't like the this is like Panama a couple of
decades ago, what are we doing here? Relying on the military to tell us
about something that should be something
about something that should be on. As a weapon, yes, as Chris
Cook's film nailed it, it's a very powerful thing electorally. It
doesn't work with Buzz feed, your algorithm is based on happiness in a
way. Its puddings and online discussed, it's pleasure, putting a
link on Facebook that makes you look like a good, intelligent person for
showing this. The fact that prove my case is a strong thing want to put
on Facebook, Twitter, it makes them look good and spreads the word about
their message. One thing that is odd look good and spreads the word about
that we can pick up from the film is while we don't have paid for
political ads on TV and radio in the UK, what we have got and what the
Conservatives used to great effect during the general election, and
they have the same guys working on this campaign, for the remain
campaign, they can do paid Facebook ads. They will be targeting certain
messages using hard cash to people who could be swung in key areas.
It's one thing who could be swung in key areas.
having that people haven't picked up on. While Anne MacElvoy
having that people haven't picked up have got the fear problem, the
unknown. It definitely have got the fear problem, the
think they were thrown back on that tactic because they were wrong foot
or by the scale and respectability of those who supported leave, by the
lack of bounce after the deal brought back from Brussels. It's as
lack of bounce after the deal if they've given up having sold the
deal and are if they've given up having sold the
fear. It is security risk, and a jobs risk. The fact they fell back
on it so quickly, they shot those bolts faster than they were
intending to. We saw that in the FTSE 100 letter, they only had 36 of
the top FTSE 100 companies signing that letter. Why weren't
Sainsbury's, Tesco and Barclays Sainsbury's, Tesco and Barclays
signatories? And the military letter. One of the signatories,
General Sir Michael letter. One of the signatories,
didn't know anything about it. The whole idea of your character, the
danger, possibly, that we then talk about Europe, when
danger, possibly, that we then talk EU. People don't want to seem
anti-European because they think they like Europe, but they might not
feel as if they want to embody the EU, do you think there is an
identity thing going on here? I do think it's a factor insofar as, I
mean, everyone likes going on holiday, people talk about living
abroad. I think when it comes down to fit what people see is people. --
when it comes down to it. It comes down to migration, immigration, we
think of it as people coming in rather than us going out. We think
of it as an inbound flow. Facts and figures. Things like numerous
studies that have found immigrants actually put in more than they take
out, those sorts of figures seem to... They don't seem to land in the
immigration debate. And we don't really talk about the people from
the UK as much, going to work abroad. I wonder whether part of the
imbalance, if you like, of this whole referendum argument, is there
isn't a corner for passionate federalists. It's a question of...
UR a bit negative or very negative, nobody is really on the... Stars on
the flag. They use to become its a very good point you raise, there
used to be the stuff I remember writing about split over Europe in
the Tory party and across the parties in the 1990s. There were
outright federalists supporters, Peter Mandelson, everyone remembers.
Nick Clegg. They had a strong, pro-European stance, which was about
the institution. The EU is a damaged institution and there are worries
about its handling of things like the Eurozone crisis and migration,
these things worry people. On the other hand, there is something you
said about people not wanting to be cut off from it. They think, I go
there on holiday, I might want to work there. There is a sense that it
needs to be addressed by Toby's side of the argument. They worry
something bad will happen that they can't put their finger on now, that
they would be able to do something if we leave. No doubt there will be
some scaremongering saying we won't be able to travel as freely in
Europe. I don't think anybody who lives in Spain or France will have
to come home the day after Brexit. You are right there aren't any
full-blooded federalists in this debate. Downing Street have blocked
themselves into a corner, Cameron and Osborne for years, and a lot of
other inners, have been presenting themselves as fundamentally
Eurosceptic, rather than Europhiles. That is why they made this big song
and dance about securing special status as a result of this deal for
the UK and the European Union. Some associate membership. Having not
secured that, they can't fall back on claiming to be full-blown
federalists because it would completely be at odds with how they
presented their attitudes before. They have to fall back on project
fear, they've nothing else. We've run out of time, but you are welcome
back next week. While the debate about Europe rages here, French
authorities have been going from tent to tent in the jungle in Calais
telling residents it is time to leave.
Yesterday a court upheld a government plan to clear
the sprawling camp - which is home to thousands
Most of them want to come to Britain.
But the French authorities say they must relocate to official
migrant centres or apply for asylum in France.
It comes at the end of a week in which EU nations traded
recriminations over refugee policy and the bloc's migration
commissioner warned that the system was in danger of breaking down
Our reporter Gabriel Gatehouse has spent the week in Calais
and was there as the authorities went in this morning.
They're going in not with bulldozers but with offers of resettlement.
The authorities now have the legal right to clear the Jungle,
but for the moment, they are asking rather than telling people to leave.
It's your decision, not their decision.
The trouble is, they don't seem to be very persuasive.
So, the man who lives in this tent doesn't
want to be filmed, but what's going on is the French officials
are going around with a map of France saying,
you can live in any one of these places, you can go to a refugee
or migrant reception centre, but he's saying, I don't
These are tough living conditions but,
given the option to move to other parts of France,
places where some people would happily go on holiday,
most of the residents of the Jungle say they choose this.
In new camp, there is no place for community or cook by yourself.
Here, I can find my freedom, I am treated like human beings.
Did they say that you could stay if you want
No, they said to us, maybe after two or three weeks,
Because I feel over there there are a lot of freedoms.
There are nice people over there.
Many of the migrants speak of heavy-handed police tactics.
Night-time raids with tear gas and rubber bullets.
As news of the court ruling came through yesterday
evening, the mood in the camp was tense.
But the prefect of the region told us no one would be moved by force.
We will persuade them to move of their own accord.
One of the options on offer is this gated camp
Access is controlled by a palm print.
Once inside, accommodation is in shipping
It may be warm, but it's pretty soulless, and it's not popular.
In any case, there are only 300 spaces
left in the container park, and the southern part of the Jungle
The truth is, the local authorities simply
don't have the capacity to rehouse them all.
Well, this strange state of limbo that the Jungle now finds
itself in is symptomatic of a much wider problem.
There are tens of thousands of people heading towards
Nobody can stop them, but nobody can agree
The Jungle is also home to a small army of mostly
Many have spent months building up a community which they now fear
There is little affection between them and the police
The weeks ahead will doubtless bring more tensions as the authorities
dismantle vacant tents and try to move the migrants on.
Across Europe, the failure to forge a common strategy to tackle this
crisis is straining the very bonds that hold the EU together.
Leaks from a report into the death of the young Tory activist
Elliot Johnson amid allegations of bullying
by the Conservative Mark Clarke suggest it will say "potential
criminal matters" were committed on the campaign road trip ahead
The British Transport Police report, seen by the Daily Mail,
is also believed to contain claims that Elliott had battled
with depression for years, and had tried to commit
Elliot was found dead on a railway line last September
with a note accusing Mr Clarke of bullying him.
For the past four months, Newsnight has been investigating
allegations of bullying within the youth wing
Today, James Clayton spoke to Ray Johnson,
Elliott's dad, and asked him if the claims were true.
Elliott looked like everything was normal, there was no problem. We
first found out about it when we got a call from school to say Elliott
had told somebody in the school he had taken something. And he'd been
taken to hospital. That was the first we were aware Elliott had a
problem with mental health. Had he tried to take his life after that
when he was at school? The next incident was some months later.
Elliott had gone to a friend's birthday party. He told us later
that somebody had put a coin in his drink and he almost choked on it. It
upset him. Friends were laughing at him. He stormed out of the party. He
told us that he tried to hang himself. We've been concerned since
the first incidents. We went to the GP with Elliott, the GP referred him
to a psychiatric centre. He'd had several visits to the psychiatrist
with us. The third attempt came out of the blue. Elliott said previously
he had tried to drown himself. Under closer discussion and talking with
Elliott, it seemed they were cries for help more than anything else. He
had a difficult time for a period of about a year. He was a vulnerable
lad, clearly, had a number of issues. He worked hard to resolve
those issues. Following that period over one year, he matured, he went
to university, had no further problems. He looked forward to
getting on with the next stage of his life. It's also been reported
that Elliott became depressed after coming out as gay in 2010. And that
his family had initially struggled to come to terms with his sexuality.
When did he tell you he was gay? He didn't actually tell us he was
actually gay until two and a half years ago. And how did you react to
that? By then we'd got used to the idea, we knew that Elliott was
probably tending towards being gay, so it wasn't a real surprise to us,
to be honest, at that stage. He was also fairly open about it with his
friends in London, so there was no reason for him to take his life
because of the fact that he was gay. His friends... He was open to them
about it. Everybody knew about it. It should be no reason, no bearing
on that. We've obviously talked a lot in the last few months. You've
never actually mentioned he had mental health problems, that he had
had mental problems, that he tried to take his own life before, why
didn't you bring that up? We didn't think at that stage it was the right
thing to say, we were trying... We knew at some stage it would come out
because it would become part of the medical evidence at the coroner 's
enquiry, inquest. Five months ago we were struggling with the loss of our
son. And we were worried, I suppose, that if we'd raised the point that
Elliott had mental health issues a number of years previously, that
would have made it more difficult for us to get justice for him. I
think people would have just thought this was just another vulnerable
young boy with mental health issues who decided to commit to aside. And
would not have looked any further to the fact of what drove our son to
his suicide. Once again, you don't think that is relevant to my Elliott
ended up taking his own life? No, it's not relevant, Elliott took his
life because he'd been bullied. And picked on generally. By certain
persons. And let down by other organisations around the
Conservative Party. He was treated badly, that's why he took his life.
He was treated appallingly by people and organisations and we want to
make sure Elliott receives justice for what happened to him. Ray
Johnson, Elliot Johnson's dad, speaking to James Clayton.
Rob Delaney and Ruby Wax, about the links between comedy
We should warn you this programme contains strong language.
They say that for every four people walking the streets of this country,
In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.
Will the politics of fear work on the Euro referendum? Evictions begin in the Calais camps, there's a new twist in the Tory bullying row, plus Artsnight.