26/02/2016 Newsnight


26/02/2016

With Emily Maitlis. Will the politics of fear work on the Euro referendum? Evictions begin in the Calais camps, there's a new twist in the Tory bullying row, plus Artsnight.


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Transcript


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Tonight, is the EU referendum going to be won by fear?

:00:07.:00:09.

And if so, which side stands to gain?

:00:10.:00:16.

You could see interest rates go up, food prices go up, family finances

:00:17.:00:27.

threatened. Those are risks, and I think people need to weigh up the

:00:28.:00:29.

risks. threats to make their point,

:00:30.:00:31.

how on earth do the rest of us French authorities start clearing

:00:32.:00:35.

the Jungle at Calais after a court upholds

:00:36.:00:39.

the government's plan What is going on is French officials

:00:40.:00:49.

are going around with a map of France saying, you could live in any

:00:50.:00:52.

one of these places, you could go to a migrant centre, but he is saying,

:00:53.:00:54.

I don't want to leave. On Artsnight, Lynn Barber talks

:00:55.:00:56.

to two comedians about comedy and mental illness -

:00:57.:00:58.

Catastrophe's Rob Delaney and Ruby When you are really ill, you can't

:00:59.:01:11.

move, and before that, you have a racing mind, but when you are on the

:01:12.:01:16.

way down, you have a racing mind, and they used to show up to events

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to say, I am perfectly fine, look how popular I am!

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In a week that feels longer than a month,

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Come down on the side of security and safety and certainty.

:01:31.:01:42.

Because in this reformed European Union, we know

:01:43.:01:44.

Of course there will be people who try to spread alarm and anxiety.

:01:45.:01:50.

We had much the same sort of thing when the decision came

:01:51.:01:53.

I have no other agenda, I have no other agenda.

:01:54.:02:09.

I think it's quite likely that during that month they would say,

:02:10.:02:12.

let's talk some more, let's see if we can reach

:02:13.:02:14.

a different agreement, perhaps you could have a second referendum.

:02:15.:02:22.

Net migration continues into Britain at

:02:23.:02:23.

And from the European Union we have zero control.

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It's not for me, for me, a matter of numbers,

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it's a matter of the type of people we want in this country.

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We benefit from scale, we benefit from the standardisation,

:02:40.:02:42.

It helps us to reduce our cost base and allows us to be

:02:43.:02:49.

We will be more secure, I think.

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is impossible to argue that we won't be.

:02:53.:02:59.

So, the white men of Westminster have spoken.

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And now the rest of the country has to make sense of it.

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But did any of the noise cut through?

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Tonight, after a week in which both sides have deployed fears

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of security, illegality, economic ruin, we're trying to make

:03:18.:03:20.

sense of the strategy each side is using to sell their argument.

:03:21.:03:23.

Do the characters, giant as they may be, pull you one way or another?

:03:24.:03:33.

Or do you still feel like you're fumbling around in the dark

:03:34.:03:36.

like an inexperienced teenager on a blind date?

:03:37.:03:38.

Here to join us are Kiri Kankhwende, Jim Waterson, Toby Young and Anne

:03:39.:03:41.

Lovely to have you all here. Kiri, it is extraordinary to think that

:03:42.:03:56.

this time last week it was all kicking off. The idea characterise

:03:57.:04:00.

the shape of the arguments? It seemed like Punch and Judy, like a

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lot of men lining up to take shots at each other, and I think what has

:04:06.:04:11.

been lost heart of this is that it is a momentous decision, one of the

:04:12.:04:14.

biggest decisions many of us will make in our lifetime, and the big

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issues haven't cut through. Why do you think that is? I think it has

:04:20.:04:23.

been caught up in personality politics. It has been very dominated

:04:24.:04:31.

by... Almost as if whoever is more popular, we should leave, when in

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short fact, no one is putting the case for either side clearly. Do you

:04:37.:04:40.

think this does feel like a personality contest at the moment?

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We have Boris on the front of the times, and he has clarified their

:04:47.:04:53.

that he does say that no means no at the end of a referendum, but when

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you look at the timings, whether it was Cameron's day or Boris's. I

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think there was a risk that the debate could have seemed like that,

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particularly if not many heavyweights had come out on the

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leave side, and I think that was Downing Street's hope, and I think

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we saw from Michael Cockrell's video last week on Newsnight about the

:05:20.:05:23.

1975 referendum, they managed to tarnish the No camp is a group of

:05:24.:05:29.

cranks, so I think the fact that Boris has come out Philippe, then

:05:30.:05:36.

gof, then David Owen, now Michael Howard,... Do you think it was

:05:37.:05:43.

coordinated? There is a relay going on? I think Boris genuinely took

:05:44.:05:49.

until Sunday night to make up his mind. But I think the fact that it

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is now a much more even contest with big beasts on both sides, and it is

:05:54.:05:58.

not just a war within the Conservative Party, there is Kate

:05:59.:06:09.

Hoey in labour, and George Galloway and so on on the far right, and in

:06:10.:06:17.

question Time yesterday, the panel didn't divide on the usual partisan

:06:18.:06:25.

lines, but it crossed those lines, and the audience seemed a gauge to.

:06:26.:06:30.

The Spectator gets a lot of hits when it glitches stuff about the

:06:31.:06:33.

referendum, and I think the public are very interested. The momentum

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has been with the outers, people like Douglas Carswell looking like

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they had a new puppy, the excitement was palpable. But it is more

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exciting to be on the outside in week one, if you have a campaign

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called Remain, how exciting is that? The arguments will be fleshed out in

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the months to come, and I know people talk about the personality

:07:06.:07:13.

politics, whichever country you take with a representative democracy, the

:07:14.:07:16.

argument end up with a head on them, there has to be a person where you

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think, I agree with him, or I don't like what she said, I have changed

:07:21.:07:25.

from him to her. The problem for the remains side is if you have all the

:07:26.:07:30.

excitement and Boris Johnson, Willie or won't he? It is, all the drama is

:07:31.:07:37.

there, the soap opera, but you still have to find a way, and the cat mark

:07:38.:07:46.

Economist have done a cover saying what they think, and they are in

:07:47.:07:52.

Economist have done a cover saying flesh on the argument, and there is

:07:53.:07:57.

a lot of excitement coming from the other side. There was a poll out

:07:58.:08:01.

this evening online which said that the Tabac three have got the edge --

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the outers have got the edge. It shows a small edge for the Three,

:08:13.:08:19.

but we still have many don't knows, if you ask how many people have

:08:20.:08:25.

definitely made their mind up, I think half of them would still be

:08:26.:08:29.

surprised that the referendum is even happening, so the idea we have

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a clear result this far out would amaze me. We have plenty of time,

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far longer than the election campaign was. You were in Scotland

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for a long time. Do you remember the point at which the people who didn't

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know suddenly new? There was a feeling that there was something we

:08:50.:08:53.

could do, but the main thing was that there was a sudden positive ups

:08:54.:08:57.

well that had been building for a very long time, the two years

:08:58.:09:01.

grass-roots work they had been doing, going out to schools and

:09:02.:09:05.

colleges, so from 2012 onwards they had been building up, whereas

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essentially, a lot of the campaigns are still arguing amongst themselves

:09:13.:09:15.

and only just really deploying their ground troops. And that is exactly

:09:16.:09:22.

what happened, the excitement, people got a big shock by how close

:09:23.:09:25.

it was going to be and that flipped up the last moment, so excitement is

:09:26.:09:30.

a funny metrics, you can feel it palpably and it will drive the

:09:31.:09:34.

debate, but whether it will drive the final outcome is less assured.

:09:35.:09:43.

Do you think there are shy outers in this? Yes, online polls have it much

:09:44.:09:52.

more level pegging, and telephone poles have people much more in

:09:53.:09:59.

favour of remaining. People are saying, I am and outie, just don't

:10:00.:10:16.

tell my friends! Nigel Farage says we spend all this money every week,

:10:17.:10:20.

others say, we get all this money back, so what the public do? How do

:10:21.:10:24.

we make sense of the figures, whether we will be more secure, less

:10:25.:10:30.

secure, spend more, spend less? It comes down to basically through you

:10:31.:10:36.

trust. So the data is irrelevant? On the one hand you are being told that

:10:37.:10:42.

leaving would damage the economy, on the other hand you are told that

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staying will, you know... So it is a case of going with the spokesperson

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that you believe, and I think that is one thing people are crying out

:10:50.:10:53.

for, in fact and mentioned that having this personality leads to

:10:54.:10:59.

excitement, but what people are crying out for when you hear them on

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the street is they just want to know that figures from a neutral source

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that they can assess the arguments neutrally. Identity there is any

:11:08.:11:13.

such thing as a neutral source in this debate, because facts and

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figures are subject to assessment. Do people want to be told what to

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think, you have to say to them, I'm sorry, you have to do some thinking

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now. The politicians will have to put that across, because if you are

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waiting for someone to bring you a tablet of stone, we would all claim

:11:37.:11:40.

that what we represent will tell some form of the truth, but in the

:11:41.:11:43.

end, people are going to have to face up to this themselves, it will

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be a brave politician who says that, but it will probably need to be

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said. State with us all, because when you haven't got figures, you do

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have fear. Within hours of a date

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for the referendum being called, Ian Duncan Smith claimed in a BBC

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interview that the EU's freedom of movement left the door open

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to a terrorist attack similar Counter terrorism experts

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slapped him down, accusing him But it is this scaremongering

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on both sides that is being widely deployed as the weapon of choice

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to bring people round. Five, seven, six... Some of the most

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striking political messages have been decidedly negative, like this

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American ad from 96 D4, an attack on Barry Goldwater, a Republican seen

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as gung ho on nuclear warfare. -- from 1964. These are the stakes! The

:12:41.:12:48.

European referendum will probably be a little less apocalypse Vic. But

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this former referendum campaign winner says the in campaign, which

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he supports, still has to be pretty tough. When it comes down to it,

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referendums are an offer of change, and three out of four file because

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people don't want to take the risk. So you have to pile up the risk,

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show the risk. The campaign for the status quo in Scotland did end up

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more negative, the consequence of extensive research by experts now

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working for the campaign to stay in the EU. During the Scottish

:13:24.:13:30.

independence referendum, the No campaign who were in favour of

:13:31.:13:32.

staying in did some research and their opponents on themselves and

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their opponents, they found that the Yes campaign was associated with

:13:37.:13:43.

ideas like ambition, Pat Richards, pride, but also risk, but the

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campaign of staying within the union was associated with ideas like

:13:48.:13:50.

financial security, job security, peace of mind, but also more of the

:13:51.:13:58.

same. See can see why it is that one campaign played up the changes, and

:13:59.:14:01.

the other campaign ended up sending quite negative, it was to use a term

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coined by a member of their own staff, Project Fear. Always in all

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polling if you ask people if they like negative campaigning, they

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don't like it. Everybody dislikes it, but if you then ask them about

:14:18.:14:21.

how their behaviour is changed by it, they hate it, but it affects

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them. The in campaign has arranged public letters from bosses and

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generals to seek to make a case that will be very familiar to Scots.

:14:31.:14:34.

Better Together Fridjonsson security. There is concern, though,

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that these messages are overblown. People should be aware of the down

:14:45.:14:50.

and upsides, but what I object to is the exaggeration of the fears about

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what might happen, and the exaggeration of the coercing of

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members of the establishment of retired military types and current

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officials and the military to rig the referendum against Brett --

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Brexit. The line between fair comment on opponent and unfair

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scaremongering is a very subjective. Some of your critics would argue

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that your concerns about how free movement within the European Union

:15:28.:15:31.

undermines our security... I don't think that is an exaggerated way of

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putting it. It is rather people to make up their own minds, but that is

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simply anchoring what I am saying in reality. A vote cast out of fear is

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as valid as one cast from Hope. You can wish for a gentler politics, but

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as a way of defending incumbents or the status quo, boy can going

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negative be effective. This brutal ad help the older George bush crush

:15:56.:15:58.

Michael Dukakis in 1988. While out, many committed other

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crimes like Many are still at large. Can hope

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beat that? The

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project fear, are we? Lets pick up with our panel again -

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Jim Waterson, Kiri Kankawende, If you were going to embrace project

:16:21.:16:31.

fear, would you say it is a powerful electoral tool? Does it work on the

:16:32.:16:37.

public? There were only two big messages in referendums that

:16:38.:16:40.

coalesce around a single issue. One is its time for change, the other

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is, don't take any risks, don't throw it all away. To that extent,

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as your film recollected, people will say, I don't like the sound of

:16:50.:16:53.

something called project fear. It does work as long as you keep it

:16:54.:16:57.

culturally in line with where people feel comfortable. The problem

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perhaps this week when we got to something... People will choose

:17:01.:17:05.

their own thing... I didn't like the lead involving generals. I

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their own thing... I didn't like the this is like Panama a couple of

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decades ago, what are we doing here? Relying on the military to tell us

:17:12.:17:14.

about something that should be something

:17:15.:17:16.

about something that should be on. As a weapon, yes, as Chris

:17:17.:17:22.

Cook's film nailed it, it's a very powerful thing electorally. It

:17:23.:17:27.

doesn't work with Buzz feed, your algorithm is based on happiness in a

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way. Its puddings and online discussed, it's pleasure, putting a

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link on Facebook that makes you look like a good, intelligent person for

:17:42.:17:46.

showing this. The fact that prove my case is a strong thing want to put

:17:47.:17:50.

on Facebook, Twitter, it makes them look good and spreads the word about

:17:51.:17:52.

their message. One thing that is odd look good and spreads the word about

:17:53.:17:57.

that we can pick up from the film is while we don't have paid for

:17:58.:18:00.

political ads on TV and radio in the UK, what we have got and what the

:18:01.:18:04.

Conservatives used to great effect during the general election, and

:18:05.:18:06.

they have the same guys working on this campaign, for the remain

:18:07.:18:11.

campaign, they can do paid Facebook ads. They will be targeting certain

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messages using hard cash to people who could be swung in key areas.

:18:16.:18:17.

It's one thing who could be swung in key areas.

:18:18.:18:20.

having that people haven't picked up on. While Anne MacElvoy

:18:21.:18:26.

having that people haven't picked up have got the fear problem, the

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unknown. It definitely have got the fear problem, the

:18:28.:18:35.

think they were thrown back on that tactic because they were wrong foot

:18:36.:18:42.

or by the scale and respectability of those who supported leave, by the

:18:43.:18:53.

lack of bounce after the deal brought back from Brussels. It's as

:18:54.:18:54.

lack of bounce after the deal if they've given up having sold the

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deal and are if they've given up having sold the

:18:58.:19:01.

fear. It is security risk, and a jobs risk. The fact they fell back

:19:02.:19:05.

on it so quickly, they shot those bolts faster than they were

:19:06.:19:09.

intending to. We saw that in the FTSE 100 letter, they only had 36 of

:19:10.:19:13.

the top FTSE 100 companies signing that letter. Why weren't

:19:14.:19:16.

Sainsbury's, Tesco and Barclays Sainsbury's, Tesco and Barclays

:19:17.:19:20.

signatories? And the military letter. One of the signatories,

:19:21.:19:22.

General Sir Michael letter. One of the signatories,

:19:23.:19:27.

didn't know anything about it. The whole idea of your character, the

:19:28.:19:32.

danger, possibly, that we then talk about Europe, when

:19:33.:19:34.

danger, possibly, that we then talk EU. People don't want to seem

:19:35.:19:37.

anti-European because they think they like Europe, but they might not

:19:38.:19:43.

feel as if they want to embody the EU, do you think there is an

:19:44.:19:47.

identity thing going on here? I do think it's a factor insofar as, I

:19:48.:19:52.

mean, everyone likes going on holiday, people talk about living

:19:53.:19:56.

abroad. I think when it comes down to fit what people see is people. --

:19:57.:20:04.

when it comes down to it. It comes down to migration, immigration, we

:20:05.:20:07.

think of it as people coming in rather than us going out. We think

:20:08.:20:12.

of it as an inbound flow. Facts and figures. Things like numerous

:20:13.:20:17.

studies that have found immigrants actually put in more than they take

:20:18.:20:21.

out, those sorts of figures seem to... They don't seem to land in the

:20:22.:20:25.

immigration debate. And we don't really talk about the people from

:20:26.:20:30.

the UK as much, going to work abroad. I wonder whether part of the

:20:31.:20:36.

imbalance, if you like, of this whole referendum argument, is there

:20:37.:20:40.

isn't a corner for passionate federalists. It's a question of...

:20:41.:20:45.

UR a bit negative or very negative, nobody is really on the... Stars on

:20:46.:20:53.

the flag. They use to become its a very good point you raise, there

:20:54.:20:56.

used to be the stuff I remember writing about split over Europe in

:20:57.:21:01.

the Tory party and across the parties in the 1990s. There were

:21:02.:21:05.

outright federalists supporters, Peter Mandelson, everyone remembers.

:21:06.:21:12.

Nick Clegg. They had a strong, pro-European stance, which was about

:21:13.:21:19.

the institution. The EU is a damaged institution and there are worries

:21:20.:21:22.

about its handling of things like the Eurozone crisis and migration,

:21:23.:21:29.

these things worry people. On the other hand, there is something you

:21:30.:21:32.

said about people not wanting to be cut off from it. They think, I go

:21:33.:21:37.

there on holiday, I might want to work there. There is a sense that it

:21:38.:21:40.

needs to be addressed by Toby's side of the argument. They worry

:21:41.:21:44.

something bad will happen that they can't put their finger on now, that

:21:45.:21:48.

they would be able to do something if we leave. No doubt there will be

:21:49.:21:52.

some scaremongering saying we won't be able to travel as freely in

:21:53.:21:56.

Europe. I don't think anybody who lives in Spain or France will have

:21:57.:22:01.

to come home the day after Brexit. You are right there aren't any

:22:02.:22:06.

full-blooded federalists in this debate. Downing Street have blocked

:22:07.:22:11.

themselves into a corner, Cameron and Osborne for years, and a lot of

:22:12.:22:15.

other inners, have been presenting themselves as fundamentally

:22:16.:22:21.

Eurosceptic, rather than Europhiles. That is why they made this big song

:22:22.:22:25.

and dance about securing special status as a result of this deal for

:22:26.:22:31.

the UK and the European Union. Some associate membership. Having not

:22:32.:22:33.

secured that, they can't fall back on claiming to be full-blown

:22:34.:22:38.

federalists because it would completely be at odds with how they

:22:39.:22:41.

presented their attitudes before. They have to fall back on project

:22:42.:22:46.

fear, they've nothing else. We've run out of time, but you are welcome

:22:47.:22:52.

back next week. While the debate about Europe rages here, French

:22:53.:22:56.

authorities have been going from tent to tent in the jungle in Calais

:22:57.:22:59.

telling residents it is time to leave.

:23:00.:23:01.

Yesterday a court upheld a government plan to clear

:23:02.:23:03.

the sprawling camp - which is home to thousands

:23:04.:23:06.

Most of them want to come to Britain.

:23:07.:23:09.

But the French authorities say they must relocate to official

:23:10.:23:11.

migrant centres or apply for asylum in France.

:23:12.:23:13.

It comes at the end of a week in which EU nations traded

:23:14.:23:16.

recriminations over refugee policy and the bloc's migration

:23:17.:23:18.

commissioner warned that the system was in danger of breaking down

:23:19.:23:21.

Our reporter Gabriel Gatehouse has spent the week in Calais

:23:22.:23:24.

and was there as the authorities went in this morning.

:23:25.:23:27.

They're going in not with bulldozers but with offers of resettlement.

:23:28.:23:47.

The authorities now have the legal right to clear the Jungle,

:23:48.:23:50.

but for the moment, they are asking rather than telling people to leave.

:23:51.:24:00.

It's your decision, not their decision.

:24:01.:24:02.

The trouble is, they don't seem to be very persuasive.

:24:03.:24:07.

So, the man who lives in this tent doesn't

:24:08.:24:10.

want to be filmed, but what's going on is the French officials

:24:11.:24:12.

are going around with a map of France saying,

:24:13.:24:15.

you can live in any one of these places, you can go to a refugee

:24:16.:24:18.

or migrant reception centre, but he's saying, I don't

:24:19.:24:20.

These are tough living conditions but,

:24:21.:24:28.

given the option to move to other parts of France,

:24:29.:24:31.

places where some people would happily go on holiday,

:24:32.:24:33.

most of the residents of the Jungle say they choose this.

:24:34.:24:36.

In new camp, there is no place for community or cook by yourself.

:24:37.:24:51.

Here, I can find my freedom, I am treated like human beings.

:24:52.:24:54.

Did they say that you could stay if you want

:24:55.:24:57.

No, they said to us, maybe after two or three weeks,

:24:58.:25:02.

Because I feel over there there are a lot of freedoms.

:25:03.:25:19.

There are nice people over there.

:25:20.:25:20.

Many of the migrants speak of heavy-handed police tactics.

:25:21.:25:26.

Night-time raids with tear gas and rubber bullets.

:25:27.:25:28.

As news of the court ruling came through yesterday

:25:29.:25:30.

evening, the mood in the camp was tense.

:25:31.:25:34.

But the prefect of the region told us no one would be moved by force.

:25:35.:25:38.

We will persuade them to move of their own accord.

:25:39.:25:49.

One of the options on offer is this gated camp

:25:50.:25:51.

Access is controlled by a palm print.

:25:52.:25:56.

Once inside, accommodation is in shipping

:25:57.:25:59.

It may be warm, but it's pretty soulless, and it's not popular.

:26:00.:26:08.

In any case, there are only 300 spaces

:26:09.:26:10.

left in the container park, and the southern part of the Jungle

:26:11.:26:13.

The truth is, the local authorities simply

:26:14.:26:18.

don't have the capacity to rehouse them all.

:26:19.:26:22.

Well, this strange state of limbo that the Jungle now finds

:26:23.:26:24.

itself in is symptomatic of a much wider problem.

:26:25.:26:28.

There are tens of thousands of people heading towards

:26:29.:26:31.

Nobody can stop them, but nobody can agree

:26:32.:26:35.

The Jungle is also home to a small army of mostly

:26:36.:26:41.

Many have spent months building up a community which they now fear

:26:42.:26:47.

There is little affection between them and the police

:26:48.:26:55.

The weeks ahead will doubtless bring more tensions as the authorities

:26:56.:27:04.

dismantle vacant tents and try to move the migrants on.

:27:05.:27:08.

Across Europe, the failure to forge a common strategy to tackle this

:27:09.:27:16.

crisis is straining the very bonds that hold the EU together.

:27:17.:27:27.

Leaks from a report into the death of the young Tory activist

:27:28.:27:29.

Elliot Johnson amid allegations of bullying

:27:30.:27:34.

by the Conservative Mark Clarke suggest it will say "potential

:27:35.:27:37.

criminal matters" were committed on the campaign road trip ahead

:27:38.:27:39.

The British Transport Police report, seen by the Daily Mail,

:27:40.:27:45.

is also believed to contain claims that Elliott had battled

:27:46.:27:47.

with depression for years, and had tried to commit

:27:48.:27:50.

Elliot was found dead on a railway line last September

:27:51.:27:54.

with a note accusing Mr Clarke of bullying him.

:27:55.:28:02.

For the past four months, Newsnight has been investigating

:28:03.:28:05.

allegations of bullying within the youth wing

:28:06.:28:06.

Today, James Clayton spoke to Ray Johnson,

:28:07.:28:09.

Elliott's dad, and asked him if the claims were true.

:28:10.:28:15.

Elliott looked like everything was normal, there was no problem. We

:28:16.:28:20.

first found out about it when we got a call from school to say Elliott

:28:21.:28:25.

had told somebody in the school he had taken something. And he'd been

:28:26.:28:32.

taken to hospital. That was the first we were aware Elliott had a

:28:33.:28:38.

problem with mental health. Had he tried to take his life after that

:28:39.:28:45.

when he was at school? The next incident was some months later.

:28:46.:28:50.

Elliott had gone to a friend's birthday party. He told us later

:28:51.:28:58.

that somebody had put a coin in his drink and he almost choked on it. It

:28:59.:29:03.

upset him. Friends were laughing at him. He stormed out of the party. He

:29:04.:29:09.

told us that he tried to hang himself. We've been concerned since

:29:10.:29:16.

the first incidents. We went to the GP with Elliott, the GP referred him

:29:17.:29:24.

to a psychiatric centre. He'd had several visits to the psychiatrist

:29:25.:29:29.

with us. The third attempt came out of the blue. Elliott said previously

:29:30.:29:36.

he had tried to drown himself. Under closer discussion and talking with

:29:37.:29:40.

Elliott, it seemed they were cries for help more than anything else. He

:29:41.:29:45.

had a difficult time for a period of about a year. He was a vulnerable

:29:46.:29:49.

lad, clearly, had a number of issues. He worked hard to resolve

:29:50.:29:55.

those issues. Following that period over one year, he matured, he went

:29:56.:30:04.

to university, had no further problems. He looked forward to

:30:05.:30:06.

getting on with the next stage of his life. It's also been reported

:30:07.:30:12.

that Elliott became depressed after coming out as gay in 2010. And that

:30:13.:30:16.

his family had initially struggled to come to terms with his sexuality.

:30:17.:30:22.

When did he tell you he was gay? He didn't actually tell us he was

:30:23.:30:27.

actually gay until two and a half years ago. And how did you react to

:30:28.:30:34.

that? By then we'd got used to the idea, we knew that Elliott was

:30:35.:30:42.

probably tending towards being gay, so it wasn't a real surprise to us,

:30:43.:30:47.

to be honest, at that stage. He was also fairly open about it with his

:30:48.:30:51.

friends in London, so there was no reason for him to take his life

:30:52.:30:57.

because of the fact that he was gay. His friends... He was open to them

:30:58.:31:04.

about it. Everybody knew about it. It should be no reason, no bearing

:31:05.:31:09.

on that. We've obviously talked a lot in the last few months. You've

:31:10.:31:15.

never actually mentioned he had mental health problems, that he had

:31:16.:31:19.

had mental problems, that he tried to take his own life before, why

:31:20.:31:25.

didn't you bring that up? We didn't think at that stage it was the right

:31:26.:31:30.

thing to say, we were trying... We knew at some stage it would come out

:31:31.:31:33.

because it would become part of the medical evidence at the coroner 's

:31:34.:31:40.

enquiry, inquest. Five months ago we were struggling with the loss of our

:31:41.:31:49.

son. And we were worried, I suppose, that if we'd raised the point that

:31:50.:31:53.

Elliott had mental health issues a number of years previously, that

:31:54.:31:59.

would have made it more difficult for us to get justice for him. I

:32:00.:32:03.

think people would have just thought this was just another vulnerable

:32:04.:32:07.

young boy with mental health issues who decided to commit to aside. And

:32:08.:32:12.

would not have looked any further to the fact of what drove our son to

:32:13.:32:19.

his suicide. Once again, you don't think that is relevant to my Elliott

:32:20.:32:27.

ended up taking his own life? No, it's not relevant, Elliott took his

:32:28.:32:30.

life because he'd been bullied. And picked on generally. By certain

:32:31.:32:37.

persons. And let down by other organisations around the

:32:38.:32:41.

Conservative Party. He was treated badly, that's why he took his life.

:32:42.:32:45.

He was treated appallingly by people and organisations and we want to

:32:46.:32:49.

make sure Elliott receives justice for what happened to him. Ray

:32:50.:32:55.

Johnson, Elliot Johnson's dad, speaking to James Clayton.

:32:56.:32:57.

Rob Delaney and Ruby Wax, about the links between comedy

:32:58.:33:02.

We should warn you this programme contains strong language.

:33:03.:33:12.

They say that for every four people walking the streets of this country,

:33:13.:33:17.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.

Will the politics of fear work on the Euro referendum? Evictions begin in the Calais camps, there's a new twist in the Tory bullying row, plus Artsnight.


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