Browse content similar to 29/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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More European countries are resorting to an old-school | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
technique for controlling migration - the barbed wire fence. | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
But today, the resulting strains showed. | :00:11. | :00:18. | |
I swear if there is human rights, they shoot it off with what they do | :00:19. | :00:28. | |
with us. Can fences really stop the flow | :00:29. | :00:30. | |
of people into Europe? And what does it say about Europe | :00:31. | :00:32. | |
that that's the main response? We'll hear from the Macedonian | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
foreign minister Also tonight - the EU | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
debate and the left. Not always the closest of buddies | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
We'll ask how self-respecting We have European bureaucracy | :00:44. | :00:53. | |
unaccountable to everybody. Powers have gone from national parliaments. | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
Think have gone to the commission and to some extent the council of | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
ministers. We ask how self-respecting socialists should | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
vote in the EU referendum this year. And, did this moment in 1945 mark | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
the official start of a new era It's a signal that will persist. We | :01:07. | :01:19. | |
know it's going to last for as long as 100,000 years. It's a very good | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
signal for future geologists. And is there something different | :01:26. | :01:26. | |
about Donald Trump? At different ends of Europe, | :01:27. | :01:35. | |
migrants have been meeting tear gas today, as Europe fashions | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
a more forceful response In Calais, the new fences around | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
the Eurotunnel terminal have made it significantly harder | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
to get into Britain, The French want an end | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
to the Jungle, but migrants protested today, as | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
demolition teams went in. In Macedonia, a border has been | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
reimposed, trapping thousands in Greece, people who want | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
to journey up to northern Europe, Now you could call it | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
the Donald Trump solution - build walls to stop | :02:06. | :02:12. | |
people coming in. For some, it's the idea | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
that actually works. For others, it simply | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
shows you have a choice. You can have strong borders | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
or humane values, but it's hard Let's start with our diplomatic | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
editor, Mark Urban. But today's message | :02:23. | :02:33. | |
is one of control This morning at Idomeni on Greece's | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
border with Macedonia, they were rationing | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
the numbers allowed over and a crowd of frustrated people | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
started attacking the gates. Thousands have passed this | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
way, but when people thought that might be | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
over, their feelings Macedonians had been | :03:01. | :03:02. | |
expecting this moment, They shot rubber bullets at those | :03:03. | :03:16. | |
trying to pull down the fence. Women, children, even babies | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
fighting for breath. To turn one of the weakest cub | :03:22. | :03:50. | |
Fridays Europe, with an underpaid civil -- country, and to turn it | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
into the place that will stop this mass a refugee movement. This was | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
bound to lead to the scenes we see now. In the short-term it's bound to | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
fail. For months thousands of MI5 grants have made their way north, | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
through the Balkans -- 000 sands of migrants have made their way north. | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
The sauce terrines had started fencing off their border with fellow | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
EU and Schengen member Slovenia. So their declaration sparked a chain | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
reaction, down through Croatia, Hungary, Serbia and Macedonia, none | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
of whom wanted to have tens of thousands of pie glants backing up | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
in their countries. With Macedonia -- migrants backing up in their | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
countries. For Greece this is a humanitarian catastrophe. It is | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
irresponsible and it is foolish for members of the eurozone that has so | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
much at stake in Greek stability to risk it in this way. Earlier this | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
month, the army was putting finishing touches to this camp in | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
northern Greece. Since we've filmed, it's filled to overflowing. The | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
Greeks hope that as borders tighten to the north, word would get back | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
and the number crossing from Turkey would fall. That hasn't happened | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
yet, but plenty of European decision makers will be hoping a message is | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
being sent. In some ways the Western Balkan states have become a proxy | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
for these ideas, who would win out - would they allow people to come | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
through to the north-western European states or close their | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
borders and effectively do something that the European Union has itself | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
found it difficult to do, which is to say no to people who want to move | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
through. To some extent, I think the Western Balkan states have been | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
helpful to many of the EU member states in doing some of the things | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
that they themselves don't feel comfortable doing. In Calais, also | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
today, there were violent scenes as riot police moved to demolish parts | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
of the MI5 grant camp. -- migrant camp. It's bound to be ugly. And as | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
to whether it can work, the argument is just beginning. | :06:05. | :06:06. | |
A big question, I suppose: are fences offensive | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
Earlier, I spoke to Macedonian Foreign Minister, | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
Nikola Poposki, and former British Foreign Secretary, | :06:15. | :06:16. | |
Why has Macedonia introduced tougher border controls? | :06:17. | :06:26. | |
We are eventually preventing illegal crossings from Greece into | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
Macedonia, since we observe several hundreds of thousands of people | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
crossing this border over the last year-and-a-half. Right now, what we | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
are trying do is implement European council decisions, prevent illegal | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
crossings and have reception centres to register migrants. Today your | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
country fired tear gas on many people, many of them children. I'm | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
wondering whether that is what you went into politics for? I don't | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
think that this is a fair judgment. What we have seen is some 400 young | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
male people trying forcibly to enter mass donian territory from Greece. | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
If you were part of the security forces and you're faced with the | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
situation where you have violent attempt from several hundred young | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
male people to enter a territory, without willing to register, or to | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
go to reception centres, I don't think this is in line with what we | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
agreed on the European level. If you ask me, I think the easiest thing to | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
do for Macedonia is to simply pull out and let all the migrants cross | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
its territory on the way to western European countries. It is precisely | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
what EU member states have been lobbying against and essentially, | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
they have said that they want to have a comprehensive MI5 grags | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
system -- migration system. And that you have to have asylum seekers that | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
would have to register. If they fulfil the conditions they can | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
continue to the European Union. Macedonia just happens to be a | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
country that St not part of the European Union, but -- that is not | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
part of the European Union but is on the migration road. Who is it you | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
blame for the predicament you're in? I don't think blame is the right | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
formulation. Every single country on this migration road has its own | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
arguments. If you ask Turkey, they will say they have been home to 2. 5 | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
million migrants over four or five years and that no-one has reacted | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
until part of these migrants have chosen to take the road and end up | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
in western Europe. Greece is in a delicate situation, it's at the | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
external border of the Schengen zone. But on the other side, it has | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
to defend a number of islands that are very difficult to control. Then | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
Macedonia is the next border. Most of these migrants reach the border | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
within 24 hours from Turkey. Then they continue their road to western | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
Europe. I don't think Germany is in this story because we have to have | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
the human treatment all along the road, including the final | :09:07. | :09:08. | |
destination for all these people that have a need or are fleeing a | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
conflict. But right now we have to have a system. The biggest problem | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
is that this system doesn't seem to work. Therefore each one of us has | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
to do his part of the responsibility on his own territory. Right. If you | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
are asking for a suggestion, I would say that the best thing to do is | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
focus all our efforts on the EU external border to work in | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
partnership with Turkey and make sure that there is 100% registration | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
of legitimate asylum seekers that they're atloud to continue their | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
road and transit through Macedonia and eventually arrive in Germany. | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
You must be disappointed to see Europe falling into this system of | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
individual countries building their own fences. The last thing we would | :09:55. | :10:03. | |
like to do is invest public money in fencing the border. This is a small | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
section. It is done with one single purpose - preventing illegal | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
crossing. If you ask British taxpayers, they will make the same | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
argument, that essentially it's not something that is good, but we | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
definitely need to prevent illegal migration if we want to act | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
responsibly. We will be the first ones that will act in order to | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
dismantle these fences across Europe because we want to join the European | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
Union. That's our objective. Thank you very much for that. Let me just | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
turn to David Miliband, former Foreign Secretary, observer of these | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
things now running the International Rescue Committee. Do you have | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
sympathy for what he was just describing, their dilemma, they | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
basically can't just take everybody on their own. They've had hundreds | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
of thousands passing through. At some point, under taking their | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
guidance, their lead from what everyone else is doing, they have to | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
put up a fence as well. Do you have sympathy for that? I haven't seen | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
the pictures or stories of tear gas being fired at kids. One never has | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
sympathy for that. I think Macedonia is one of the victims of the beggar | :11:14. | :11:21. | |
my neighbour policies undertaken by some European policies. There needs | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
to be first, safe and legal routes to hope for those trapped in the | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
Middle East. Second, that Europe needs to maintain its border in an | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
effective and organised way. Third, that no one European country, not | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
even Germany, can bear the whole load on their own. There needs to be | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
the relocation of people around Europe and fourthly, the rest of the | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
world needs to chime in. It's good that the Canadian government have | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
taken 25,000 Syrians direct from the Middle East. The US has only taken | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
10,000. That needs to be increased many fold if there is to be a | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
comprehensive response that is essential in the absence of a | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
resolution of the Syrian conflict which tragically is still a long way | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
off. Do you think fences with razor wire and barbed wire on top of them, | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
do you think those fences do fundamentally work? Like it or not, | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
do they work at actually stopping people crossing at places where you | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
don't want them to cross? That's a great question. All of our | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
experience at the international Rose cue committee, we work in 30 | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
countries around the world, all our experience of fences, the higher you | :12:33. | :12:34. | |
are build them, the higher people jump. The more that they tunnel, the | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
more that they work around them. The real people that benefit from higher | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
walls are the smugglers. It's 1200 euros to get across the six | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
kilometres of the Aegean sea from Turkey to Greece at the moment. That | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
$1200 is not going to charities, it's going to smugglers. People are | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
paying 600 euros for a baby, for an infant. So there is a lot of money | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
being made because of the failure to establish clear and legal routes to | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
hope for people trapped in the Middle East, for the failure to | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
ensure that there are organised routes for people. Frankly, this is | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
an issue right across the world. We're in the middle of an election | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
campaign in the United States, as you know, and there's a debate about | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
walls here too. Walls simply in all the experience that people have, | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
even look at the Berlin Wall frankly, walls don't work. I think | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
it's very important to make the point that there isn't going to be a | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
resolution in unilateral measures, whether razor wire or anything else. | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
That's why I think they're worse than disappointing, they're | :13:36. | :13:36. | |
perverse. David Miliband, thank you very much. | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
At times, as we all consume the EU referendum campaign, | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
it can feel as though we're simply intruding into a private argument | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
So what about the other parties, the ones on the left? | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
Nicola Sturgeon was in London making that case today. | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
Labour is also in favour of Remain, but it has to be said, | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
in some quarters, without much gusto. | :13:59. | :14:00. | |
Could that be down to the ancient left-wing ambivalence | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
In a moment, we'll ask how any decent socialist should vote | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
in June, but first, here's our political editor, | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
Two politicians both making the case today for the the UK to stay in the | :14:12. | :14:25. | |
EU. But do not expect them to share the same stage. The referendum has | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
created strange and slightly embarrassed allies. Anyone who has | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
listened to what I have got to say and what David has to say would | :14:36. | :14:37. | |
appreciate that we want the same outcome from different respect us. | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
Now a Pentium first name terms and campaigning in London, Nicola | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
Sturgeon was making DSM P case. There's nothing contradictory about | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
independent nations recognising their interdependence, choosing to | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
pull some 70 for mutual advantage was up on the contrary that is the | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
way of the modern world that we live in today. The SNP can probably claim | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
to be the most united pro-EU party. You can almost count those | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
dissenting on the fingers of one finger pop-up step forward former | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
SNP deputy leader Jim Sellers. One the strange things about SNP | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
position is they're trying to retain the UK within the EU, the same EU | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
that in the independence referendum told us to get stuffed. We would | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
have to be put out and would have to wait till long queue to get back in. | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
And that Spain would with their beta. So what is different if the | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
assembly succeeds in keeping the UK in the EU next time we have the | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
independence referendum, they will tell us to get stuffed again. There | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
is more pro-Brexit sentiment in labour. Certainly nothing like it | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
was in the old days. The European bureaucracy is unaccountable to | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
anyone, powers have gone from national parliaments, they have gone | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
to the European Commission and Council of ministers. These are | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
serious matters. As recently as 1983, Brexit was official Labour | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
Party policy. The turning point really was when the commission came | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
to speak to the trade union Congress back in 1980 88. And really put | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
forward powerfully this idea of a social Europe which guarantees | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
workers across the European Union protections in the workplace. That | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
is when the Labour Party started to turn and now we have the vast | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
majority of our MPs and party members who are pro-European, not | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
anti-European. It is true that now every single member of the Shadow | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
Cabinet supports remaining in the EU. But in that unanimity, is there | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
perhaps a danger of complacency? If you look at the people who voted for | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
Jeremy Corbyn in the leadership election, over 80% of Labour Party | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
remembers favour remaining part of the EU in the referendum. But it is | :17:09. | :17:17. | |
not a very important issue for them, about one in six of Labour Party | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
members say it is in their top ten issues. But with Labour Party | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
supporters it is more mixed, around 56% support remaining in the EU | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
there and around 30% wished to leave. All in contrast to the | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
country generally which tends to be evenly divided. The danger for those | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
on the left is that there supporters may not care enough about the issue | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
to actually vote. In the 2011 referendum on the proposed changes | :17:45. | :17:46. | |
to the Westminster voting system, labour, the Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru | :17:47. | :17:53. | |
and the SNP all supported yes vote. But they could not convince enough | :17:54. | :17:55. | |
of their supporters to turn out. The other side with paper far less party | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
political support, was far more motivated them energised and they | :18:02. | :18:03. | |
won the day. For some on the left, | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
the EU is seen as a soft-left club For others, it is an | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
obstacle to socialism. Let's find out the views of three | :18:12. | :18:21. | |
representatives of the British left - former Labour Mayor of London, | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
Ken Livingstone, the Green MP, Caroline Lucas, and the Anglican | :18:28. | :18:29. | |
priest and commentator, Giles Fraser first, which side are | :18:30. | :18:42. | |
you on? Brexit. I have a high doctrine at the House of Commons and | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
for me the most important thing, you have the people here, those that | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
they elect and they must remain close to each other. The people you | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
elect must give power back to the people at the end of their electoral | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
cycle. It is not for them to give that power away to someone in | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
Brussels or some distant power, power must remain close to the | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
people who legitimised it. I thought you were going to say it is like a | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
neoliberal club. There are arguments on both sides. If it becomes that, | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
and it could easily become a neoliberal club with the changes, | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
the potential trade deal with the US, if that happens that will be | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
imposed on us. My fundamental argument is of democracy. And so was | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
my argument but it leads me to the opposite conclusion! He speaks about | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
democracy when it comes to the people to re-elect but the irony is | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
European elections are the one set of elections in the UK that are | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
under proportional representation. A more democratic system. But the | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
issue of the transatlantic trade agreement, those people who think | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
we're going to get a softer, nicer trade policy by withdrawing from the | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
EU and leading to let said David Cameron, are in cloud cuckoo land. | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
David Cameron is the cheer leader, the strongest supporter of that. If | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
we withdraw from the EU he will put that into bilateral agreements with | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
the US. Right now in the U there are 3 million people who signed a | :20:19. | :20:20. | |
petition against this and the European Parliament is now... Just | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
aren't about specific question. Tony Benn once said, better about | :20:27. | :20:34. | |
government then a good king. A slightly agree with that. Whatever | :20:35. | :20:42. | |
the weight goes, for me the issue of democracy so fundamental. The | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
transatlantic trade agreement could go either way. Ken, with Perugia in | :20:46. | :20:55. | |
the middle, as you wished. It is a horrendous bureaucracy. You need to | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
get rid of that layers of bureaucracy. The problem that we | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
face is since the collapse of the Soviet Union, two thirds of the | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
world economy is in America, Europe and China. If we come out we will | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
have no real influence outside that. I also think that two years | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
negotiating our way out, who will invest in the UK. Look at the | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
situation, if you're an American car firm, you pay a 10% tariff selling | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
cars in Europe. We do not want to be caught by that. The only way we | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
could be excluded for that is to accept free movement, exactly the | :21:37. | :21:44. | |
issue being used. None of you really love the EU in its current form. You | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
want to change it, you do not like it. I want to make it more | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
democratic, yes. But I want to make the House of Commons more | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
democratic. It does not mean I want to walk away from it. But it is a | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
neoliberal club to some degree. Because most governments in the EU | :22:01. | :22:10. | |
now are right wing governments. In the 1990s there was a wonderful | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
moment when the EU 15 had a majority of environment ministers from the | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
Green Party. There were some wonderful environmental policy that | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
came from that. If you put right wing victory into it that is what | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
you will get out of the. But it does not undermine the importance of | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
working together on the issues we face. Climate change, | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
working together on the issues we cannot tackle that as a single | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
country are own. It still feels like a dream. Were you happy with what | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
happened to the people of Greece earlier this year, with what was | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
imposed on them? earlier this year, with what was | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
has become. And it is going to get worse. Look what David Cameron is | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
doing in Britain! I know how to get out. I know how it works in this | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
country, it is straightforward. I quite like the first past the post | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
system for that reason. I have a present I could vote for, not vote | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
for, it is close to the people and I wanted to remain that way. If you | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
lobby, you're democratically elected MEPs, they can block the | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
transatlantic trade agreement. Why is the Labour Party that was so | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
close to the Giles Fraser pointed you 20 years ago, moved so far from | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
that now? If someone can show me that our economy will do better if | :23:35. | :23:42. | |
we vote to leave, non-upbeat series economic analysis has suggested | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
that. It will be chaotic. I believe we will be back in recession, a | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
further collapse in investment, a disaster. Will want to make it more | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
democratic. Remember this, if we were not in Europe, not bound by | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
European rules on environment and workers rights, this government | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
would have done implement the war damage. Many people in the | :24:10. | :24:11. | |
Conservative Party do not like Europe for the same reasons, they | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
think it is taming some of the things they would want to do here. | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
We are all in strange company at this time! Whichever side of the | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
debate were on. What does surprise me about your position, Giles, | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
European story as it is to be celebrated because after centuries | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
of warfare in Europe, countries have come together. There's something | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
noble about trying to resolve our through discussion and debate, | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
however bureaucratic it is. I've been a member of the European | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
Parliament and I have seen that, but so much better than trying to solve | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
problems with bullets and bombs. That is a noble vision and ambition | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
are used to share but what Europe has now become... The commission had | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
a proposal to be able to share what refugees in a fair away and stop it | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
was individual right wing governments that through back in | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
their face. Jeremy Corbyn prefers to be at CND rallies, do you think he | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
will come out and that hard on this because many people say that that | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
will be crucial. We had a meeting last week with the Labour National | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
executive, and Central is that we mobilise all our support, led by | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
Alan Johnson, to make sure we get our voters out to stay in. I do not | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
want to see unemployment going up in this country. We need a proper | :25:42. | :25:49. | |
debate on the left. You cannot just say we will mobilise our support to | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
do this. It cannot be the Tories making the running. I think many | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
young people watching will be watching in bemusement because to | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
them being part of the EU is just the air that they breathe. Thank you | :26:03. | :26:03. | |
all very much. Debates in the world of geology | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
do not often intrude into programmes like this, but every now and then, | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
one comes along that deserves And right now, there is literally, | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
an epoch-making argument going on. It concerns the precise epoch | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
that we are in: for more than 11,000 years we've been languishing | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
in a period of geological time called the Holocene, | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
but many geologists believe the earth has entered a new epoch - | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
the anthropocene - The only problem is they can't | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
agree when it started. Here's the BBC's science | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
correspondent, Rebecca Morelle. If only it were this easy to define | :26:35. | :26:44. | |
where one bit of the earth's Traditionally, this has been | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
done with hindsight. Now scientists are itching | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
to declare we're in a new epoch. But they can't agree | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
on when it began. The group that comes out with a date | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
gets to define time itself. Geologists love to divvy up time, | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
and that is what they have done So from the year dot to now, | :27:05. | :27:16. | |
4.54 billion years later, that is divided up into units | :27:17. | :27:24. | |
of time called eons. These chapters of time mark turning | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
points in the earth's history. But to define when each began | :27:30. | :27:39. | |
we need some physical indicator. Evidence of a radical | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
change across the planet. And one of these can be found here, | :27:46. | :27:47. | |
in the Southern uplands of Scotland. Millions of years of history have | :27:48. | :28:01. | |
left signatures in these rocks. And we're going to check | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
out a time stamp. So we've arrived here | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
at the Ordovician-Silurian boundary. In fact, your hand is actually | :28:12. | :28:13. | |
sitting on the boundary. A boundary between two | :28:14. | :28:15. | |
geological periods of time. So these rocks, these black | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
mudstones, they were deposited When they were deposited, | :28:23. | :28:24. | |
there were horizontal. They have been tipped up | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
by tectonic processes. We do see a fundamental change | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
in the animals that are preserved Over there, in those rocks, | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
we find the fossil skeletons of animals that tell us | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
it was in the Ordovician period of geological time, | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
and then where your hand is, we have a sudden change | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
in the graptolite fossil sandwich that tells us we are now | :28:46. | :28:47. | |
in the Silurian period So it is measurable, | :28:48. | :28:49. | |
and that is what you're looking for. It was a colossal change | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
in the earth's atmosphere and oceans that shifted us from the Ordovician | :28:54. | :29:05. | |
to the Silurian period, And signalled by the before | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
and after effects on the ancient Now fast forward through several | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
more periods, epochs and ages. Officially, we have been | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
in the Holocene epoch But scientists now think | :29:17. | :29:18. | |
we are in a new epoch, What we are seeing at present | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
is that the degree of change to the earth's system, | :29:26. | :29:33. | |
that has been conducted by humans, is as significant as some | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
of the really major changes to the earth's system | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
in the geological record. No one species on planet Earth has | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
ever done that in the whole history So it is really fundamental, | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
it is enormous change. For signs of our own involvement | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
in history, you don't need to track through a gorge in search of tiny | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
creatures fossilised in rock. The imprint we are leaving | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
on the planet is big. From clearing the land to make way | :29:57. | :30:04. | |
for buildings like this, to creating the materials, concrete, | :30:05. | :30:13. | |
plastic, that go into them. We are shaping every | :30:14. | :30:15. | |
aspect of our environment. But while it might seem obvious | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
to you and I that humans are dominating the globe, | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
geologists need to agree that the changes we are in the world | :30:25. | :30:26. | |
are on a vast enough scale. So for the last 500 years, | :30:27. | :30:38. | |
science has made us, individuals, feel | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
really insignificant. We start off with the | :30:42. | :30:43. | |
Copernicus revolution. The earth is not the centre | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
of the universe, it is the sun. We now have cosmologists saying that | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
actually our sun is rather small, and actually it is one of billions | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
and billions in the universe. We then have the biologists coming | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
in and they say, guess what? Yeah, you're not special, | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
you're not there between You're just a smart chimpanzee | :31:01. | :31:02. | |
with not very much hair. Now what we are saying is that | :31:03. | :31:09. | |
humanity is a geological superpower. We are currently having the same | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
effect as plate tectonics A consensus is is now growing | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
that we have sufficiently secured our superpower status enough | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
to warrant our own epoch. But that means another row | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
is gathering momentum. When did we ditch the Holocene | :31:27. | :31:33. | |
and welcome in the Anthropocene? Was it way back, more | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
than 8000 years ago, when humans were lopping down | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
forests to make way for their farms? Or was it a bit more recently, | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
in the 15th century, when the New World met | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
the old world, shifting plants, animals and disease | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
around the globe? Some think the industrial | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
Revolution is a contender, which could bring the Anthropocene's | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
birth into the 18th century. Or is the start date much more | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
recent, the mid-20th century, when humanity's impact on the earth | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
reached epic proportions? What is needed is a moment in human | :32:13. | :32:19. | |
history that leaves a strong and long lasting signal that future | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
geologists would be able to find. Some believe the first nuclear | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
tests offer just that. A legacy of radioactive elements | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
that will linger far This is a really good signal | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
that we get in the 1950s. It is something that we can | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
recognise all around the planet. And also it is a signal | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
that will persist, because of those | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
radiogenic isotopes. We know it is going to last | :32:50. | :32:51. | |
for as long as 100,000 years, so it is a very, very good signal | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
for future geologists. Others think we need | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
to go further back. For me, we can go a million years | :32:58. | :32:59. | |
into the future and look back, the one thing that will always be | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
there is how we change the evolution and the distribution | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
of species around the planet. Ultimately the real birth | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
of a new epoch will be It is due to go to a | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
vote later this year. So actually saying we are in | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
the Anthropocene epoch, and we are the control | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
on the earth's destiny, If you've been happy in the | :33:29. | :33:30. | |
Holocene, you may not want to be told | :33:31. | :33:40. | |
that we are now in the Anthropocene. But just in case geologists decide | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
that we are, happy new epoch! 12 US states, including | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
the second biggest one, Texas, get their say | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
in the selection of Republican and Democrat | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
presidential candidates. And American Samoa | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
gets its say as well. Tomorrow may not make | :33:58. | :33:59. | |
a Clinton-Trump contest inevitable, However, it's the Republican race | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
that has gripped us all, and the dominance of Donald Trump - | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
a man worth $4 billion - and yet one for whom it is always | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
difficult to tell what to take You retweeted somebody from el duce | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
2016 a Mussolini quote. What difference does it make | :34:18. | :34:26. | |
whether it's Mussolini It's certainly a very | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
interesting quote. General Pershing, per shalling, | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
did you ever hear rough, guy and they had | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
a terrorism problem. There's a whole thing with swine | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
and animals and pigs and you know He took the 50 terrorists | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
and he took 50 men and dipped 50 They shot 49 of those people | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
and the 50th person he said, you go back to your people | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
and you tell them what happened. What's the difference between a wet | :34:58. | :35:06. | |
racoon and Donald J Trump's hair? A wet racoon doesn't have | :35:07. | :35:19. | |
seven billion (BLEEP)ing dollars Donald Trump sometimes one | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
for clowning around, sometimes one with a rather more | :35:26. | :35:39. | |
threatening message. His populism has drawn the extreme | :35:40. | :35:41. | |
comparison to Hitler - that from a former Mexican president | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
- and a less outlandish So everybody is grappling | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
for an historical comparison, Ahead of all the politics tomorrow, | :35:49. | :35:56. | |
we thought we'd talk Joining me in studio is Tom Holland, | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
a classical historian, and from the US, Donna Murch, | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
a history professor at Rutgers university specialising | :36:05. | :36:06. | |
in African-American history. Good evening to you both. Focussing | :36:07. | :36:18. | |
on US comparison, not on Hitler, for the moment at least, just where | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
would you, who or where would you place Donald Trump? Well, you know, | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
I think that it's hard to find a perfect historical analogy, but I | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
think George Wallace might be the closest. He was the former governor | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
of Alabama who ran in 19 #6r8. He was able to draw on a racist, | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
populist platform, a significant amount of voters in the south and | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
the mid-west. The appeal to white nationalism in a moment of perceived | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
crisis can be compared with Trump. You have a more classical bent, | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
haven't you? I would compare him to the emperor Nero. The reason is not | :37:02. | :37:09. | |
just that Nero is as unpopular with Roman historians and Trump is with | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
East Coast liberals. But Nero was a sensational hero. He was a | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
calculated politician who reached over the heads of the elite, whom he | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
cast as stuffed shirts, and made an enormous splash and won the | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
admiration of the people. Nero understood if you carry things off | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
with sufficient swagger and charisma, bad publicity is always | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
going to win out for you. Was Nero a populist? Was that a word you'd | :37:43. | :37:52. | |
ascribe to him? He was a popularis. You had to be rich, you could be | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
aristocratic but you played to the public gallery. That's what Nero | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
did. He killed his mother. You'd think that would be terminal even | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
for the career of a Roman emperor, but Nero made a splash of it. He | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
actually appeared on stage rather like Trump in the wrestling, playing | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
the role of a famed midge logical matricide. This man recognise today | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
he got out there and played the role of the big man, that way he could | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
win the hearts and minds of people. That sounds like a more benevolent | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
picture than the one you offered Donna. George Wallace, I think you | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
used the word populist and racist, I mean those are both words you would | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
apply to Donald Trump? Yes, especially racist. The problem with | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
the term populism is that it's so general. That encompasses many | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
things, including economic redistribution, which trump does not | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
support. Trump built his campaign on declaring that Mexicans were rapists | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
and that we need a separation wall between the US and Mexico, that | :38:58. | :39:05. | |
should be paid for by Vicente Fox. He further exacerbated this and it | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
inacrosses his popularity by saying all Muslims should wear ID badges. | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
It's that kind much rhetoric that's drawn the compare sons being made | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
with Hitler. It's really about racively. -- racism. The Hitler | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
comparison is hysterical, isn't it? Or do you think there is perhaps a | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
germ of insight in there? I would say that the fact that people are | :39:31. | :39:38. | |
choosing such a bombbastic comparison is how the people feel in | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
the United States. He's really up ended the raurt Republican Party. -- | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
Republican Party. He's found a huge national base amongst white, | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
working-class voters. People are saying that to signify the sense of | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
crisis. Is it helpful to make comparison to Hitler? By and large | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
it's not helpful at all. In fact, I think it's pernicious. For instance, | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
comparisons of Saddam Hussein to Hitler were crucial in influencing | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
the move to war in Iraq. I think that in Trump's case there's no need | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
to look to European traditions to trace his roots. I think that you | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
can look back to the 19th searchingery American history and | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
find all kinds of echoes. If you look at President Pole, elected in | :40:27. | :40:34. | |
1845. He didn't build a wall. He invaded Mexico. He annexed a huge | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
chunk of California. If you place Trump in those traditions, the | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
traditions of America, then he makes more sense. What about populism in | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
American history? You've had, I take the George Wallace comparison, but | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
there are others in the 1930s, he wasn't Hitler, but there was a chap | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
huey Long who was an extraordinarily successful for a short period of | :41:02. | :41:09. | |
time. You had Huey Long, but he's so different from Trump. He comes from | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
a wealthy family. His father supporting the clan wand as a big | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
real estate owner. Long supported a populist platform, but he was | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
involved in infrastructure building in Louisiana. Trump is almost a | :41:23. | :41:37. | |
blend, blended with George Wallace bulletineded with Silvio Berlusconi. | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
It is his show on celebrity apprentice that launched his brand. | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
He has a history of all kinds of racist proclamations going back to | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
the 80s, when he called of bringing back the death penalty with the | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
police. Thank you both. It is super Tuesday tomorrow. I'm | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
back, Emily with be in the States. Till then, have a very good night. | :42:02. | :42:05. |