04/03/2016 Newsnight


04/03/2016

A programme dedicated to the US elections. John Sweeney on Trump's business connections, Jon Sopel and what is America's place in the world? With Kirsty Wark.


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Transcript


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What happens in America this year affects us all.

:00:00.:00:07.

This week has brought the American presidential election

:00:08.:00:09.

Winners, losers, insults and dropouts.

:00:10.:00:14.

And it's Donald Trump who's making all the weather.

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But is his claim that his wealth makes him Mr Clean a grubby lie?

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It's a question John Sweeney has been asking for some time.

:00:29.:00:31.

You stayed in bed, if I may say so, with Felix Sater

:00:32.:00:34.

Again, John, maybe you are sick, but when

:00:35.:00:39.

you have a signed contract, you can't in this country

:00:40.:00:42.

Emily goes to Trump heartland to find out how his supporters

:00:43.:00:49.

expect him to change American foreign policy.

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We are the best country in the world, that's for sure.

:00:52.:00:55.

But I think we can't take care of everybody.

:00:56.:00:59.

We'll be exploring whether not just America but the West as a whole

:01:00.:01:02.

is turning in on itself - and, if so, how does that impact

:01:03.:01:05.

And in this week's Artsnight, neurosurgeon Henry Marsh talks

:01:06.:01:09.

to author Karl Ove Knausgard about his incredibly honest

:01:10.:01:12.

When you were writing it, my impression is it was almost

:01:13.:01:20.

an act of sort of suicidal catharsis, so to speak.

:01:21.:01:23.

Were you aware of the fact it might actually struck a chord

:01:24.:01:27.

It's the end of a seismic week for the Republicans.

:01:28.:01:42.

Donald Trump now looks the most likely contender to be the party's

:01:43.:01:45.

candidate for the next President of the United States.

:01:46.:01:49.

Among his big boasts - some cruder than others -

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is that he is a modern day Midas, worth billions, and that his wealth

:01:52.:01:55.

means that he can't be bought and sold.

:01:56.:01:59.

And that puts him above the political fray.

:02:00.:02:02.

Tonight, Newsnight tells the other side of the story -

:02:03.:02:05.

the evidence which not only casts doubt on Trump's fabulous wealth

:02:06.:02:08.

claims but also reveals his history of business relationships

:02:09.:02:11.

with figures connected to organised crime.

:02:12.:02:14.

Donald Trump says he's worth $11 billion.

:02:15.:02:27.

And I am totally self-funding my campaign, so I don't have to take

:02:28.:02:43.

donors and special interest people and lobbyists.

:02:44.:02:46.

On how he got so rich, Trump has in the past boasted

:02:47.:02:52.

The same cannot be said of some of the people he did business with.

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Trump Plaza, Atlantic City, New Jersey.

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The site of Donald Trump's foray into the casino business.

:03:08.:03:11.

It ended up in a heap of broken dreams.

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Four of his gambling businesses went bust.

:03:18.:03:22.

Back in 1980, when Trump launched his first casino here,

:03:23.:03:25.

some of his business partners worked for the mafia.

:03:26.:03:30.

The picture in New York was no better.

:03:31.:03:39.

Here lies Fat Tony Salerno, once one of the most feared men

:03:40.:03:43.

He was the boss of the Genovese crime family, and it just so happens

:03:44.:03:48.

the man from whom Donald Trump bought his concrete.

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Fat Tony and other mobsters had a lock on New York concrete.

:03:59.:04:01.

While most builders use steel and some concrete,

:04:02.:04:03.

Trump built the tallest concrete building in New York.

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Fat Tony Salerno was fat, and he was the head

:04:08.:04:11.

It was the most powerful crime family in the city at the time.

:04:12.:04:19.

And Fat Tony didn't just supply concrete to Donald Trump -

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the two men also shared a lawyer, Roy Cohn.

:04:24.:04:27.

The evidence is that Fat Tony Salerno met

:04:28.:04:29.

with Donald Trump in Roy Cohn's office, which makes

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Not only did I have sources telling me that at the time,

:04:33.:04:39.

but when you consider that he is building the largest

:04:40.:04:41.

concrete structure of its time, and the concrete industry

:04:42.:04:46.

is controlled by Fat Tony Salerno, it makes all the sense in the world.

:04:47.:04:56.

In the early 90s, Trump was almost a billion dollars in the red.

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By 2004, he had recovered and got into reality TV.

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In 1991, in this bar, Felix Sater had a row with another

:05:06.:05:17.

Sater snapped the stem of a margarita glass and stabbed

:05:18.:05:24.

Out of jail, he took part in a $40 million Stock Market fraud,

:05:25.:05:41.

boosting shares and then selling them at a profit.

:05:42.:05:44.

Then Sater made a deal with the FBI, informing of his fellow

:05:45.:05:51.

Sater's conviction was publicised, but later in return for him

:05:52.:05:58.

co-operating with the Feds, it was sealed.

:05:59.:06:03.

Sater and Trump got into business together in the early 2000s,

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when Sater was an executive at Bayrock.

:06:07.:06:12.

This is one of the three developments that Donald

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From Trump Soho, the name, you would have thought that Trump

:06:16.:06:19.

was the money behind this project.

:06:20.:06:21.

As well as Trump Soho, there were two other

:06:22.:06:28.

Trump Fort Lauderdale in Florida, and Trump Camelback in Arizona.

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When property prices began to slide, the Trump Bayrock projects

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Newsnight understands investors lost at least $10 million

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I checked out the location in Fort Lauderdale.

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It was an absolute great location, and I thought with the Trump

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organisation behind it and Mr Trump putting his name on the line,

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I thought it would be very successful.

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In 2013, I challenged Trump about his relationship with Felix

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Why didn't you go to Felix Sater and say you are connected

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First of all, we were not the developer there,

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Excuse me, but I don't know, you're telling me things

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You're telling me about Felix Sater, I know who he is, I know of him

:07:30.:07:34.

You stayed in bed, if I may say so, with Felix Sater, and he was

:07:35.:07:39.

Again, John, maybe you're thick, but when you have a signed contract

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you can't in this country just break it.

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Sometimes we will sign a deal and the partner isn't as good

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By the way, John, I hate to do this, but I do have that big

:07:54.:07:58.

group of people waiting, so I have to go.

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Newsnight has obtained one of the key Trump Bayrock contracts,

:08:01.:08:08.

which has only recently been unsealed by the courts.

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And what Trump told me wasn't true.

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It is what is known as a bad boy clause.

:08:15.:08:18.

It states that Bayrock shall do nothing to bring disrepute

:08:19.:08:20.

to or in any manner impair or damage the Trump brand.

:08:21.:08:28.

The critical question is before that date, did Trump know

:08:29.:08:41.

Here is some evidence Trump could have found when they went

:08:42.:08:45.

Guilty plea was publicly announces all over the world in a press

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release put out by the United States attorney's office in New York,

:08:50.:08:53.

and co-authored by the FBI field office.

:08:54.:08:58.

The press release went all over the world.

:08:59.:09:01.

It was published even in the Guardian, I think

:09:02.:09:03.

it was published in Australia, I am not sure.

:09:04.:09:05.

It was published in the New York Daily News.

:09:06.:09:07.

There was issued that same day an indictment

:09:08.:09:11.

against his co-conspirators and that indictment identified Felix Sater

:09:12.:09:14.

by name, as one of the co-conspirators.

:09:15.:09:18.

A third pointer in 2006 that might have alerted Trump to Sater's past

:09:19.:09:29.

was a lawsuit, alleging that he made a death threat against

:09:30.:09:34.

Ernie Mendez has bought into Trump Camel back in Arizona,

:09:35.:09:43.

he found out about Sater's past and then he said he got

:09:44.:09:45.

The case was later settled, but in the lawsuit, Mendez said

:09:46.:09:50.

Sater threatened to have a man electrically shock Mr Mendez's

:09:51.:09:54.

testicles, cut off his legs and leave Mr Mendez dead

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Sater's lawyer says this claim was an outright fabrication.

:10:01.:10:11.

Fred Oberlander has acted for clients suing Bayrock.

:10:12.:10:15.

You would have to be deaf, dumb and blind in my opinion.

:10:16.:10:18.

The ability of someone like Donald Trump to know

:10:19.:10:21.

whom he was doing business and to whom he was selling

:10:22.:10:24.

the right to use his name, would certainly include

:10:25.:10:27.

finding the press release in the Congressional record where it

:10:28.:10:31.

Trump has said he doesn't know about Sater's past

:10:32.:10:39.

We do as much of a background check as we can on the principles.

:10:40.:10:45.

This is tape number one of the video tape, the position of

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Six months after my interview, he had this to say about Sater.

:10:53.:10:56.

How many times have you conversed with Mr Sater?

:10:57.:10:58.

If he were sitting in the room right now, I wouldn't know

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Astonishingly, that was three years after Sater had an office

:11:11.:11:16.

in Trump Tower, a Trump e-mail, and a business card listing him

:11:17.:11:19.

Felix Sater now sees himself as a reformed character.

:11:20.:11:30.

My wife says living with me is like reading next

:11:31.:11:37.

Oberlander and Learner say that Sater didn't reveal his convictions

:11:38.:11:42.

to the banks, and so the argument goes, the Trump Bayrock deals

:11:43.:11:48.

His name is still on Trump Soho, which is a Bayrock project,

:11:49.:11:54.

and he is still drawing projects off of that edifice built on fraud.

:11:55.:12:00.

He has, in my opinion, an ethical obligation and a minimum

:12:01.:12:03.

to disassociate himself from Trump Soho, because that

:12:04.:12:07.

Sater's lawyer told Newsnight his client will not comment on either

:12:08.:12:18.

Trump or Bayrock, adding that Sater is not now,

:12:19.:12:21.

So what about Trump's boast that he is 100% clean?

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Can anyone who did business with the likes of Fat Tony Salerno

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Donald Trump cannot wipe clean his brushes with the mob.

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Just last night, the remaining Republican hopefuls clashed in some

:12:49.:12:51.

of the most bitter exchanges of the campaign so far.

:12:52.:12:54.

But can Trump still be stopped, or is his nomination

:12:55.:12:56.

as the Republican presidential candidate now all but inevitable?

:12:57.:12:59.

Joining me from Washington is the BBC's North America editor,

:13:00.:13:02.

How damaging have the recent attacks by the Republican establishment

:13:03.:13:16.

been? The attacks have certainly been full force. They have really

:13:17.:13:20.

gone for him. Mitt Romney, who was the Republican candidate four years

:13:21.:13:24.

ago, was calling him a phoney and a fraud and was kind of absolutely

:13:25.:13:29.

thick tube rooted in his attacks on Donald Trump. There are two big

:13:30.:13:36.

battles coming up, Ohio and Florida on March the 15th, where it is

:13:37.:13:40.

winner takes all. If Donald Trump wins that number of delegates, he is

:13:41.:13:45.

home and dry. It is a last ditch effort by the Republican

:13:46.:13:48.

establishment to do him down. Having said that, I think it is perfectly

:13:49.:13:53.

possible that Trump supporters will say, the establishment hate him,

:13:54.:13:58.

good, I like him even more. I don't think it might do him much damage.

:13:59.:14:02.

Tell me what you think about the level of debate and some of the

:14:03.:14:06.

coarseness of it. It has been nothing short of gobsmacking, kind

:14:07.:14:13.

of eye watering, frankly. Last night, it was another Republican

:14:14.:14:17.

debate. Last week, Marco Rubio had said, Donald Trump for a guy who is

:14:18.:14:23.

six foot two is rather small hands, and you know what they say about

:14:24.:14:28.

people with small towns... You can't trust them. Donald Trump goes on to

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the debate stage last night and, in front of a national televised

:14:35.:14:37.

audience says, he says I've got small hands and a small something

:14:38.:14:43.

else. I can tell you, I don't have a sprog -- I don't have a problem

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there. In other words, he was doing jokes about his penis on national

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television. Socratic debate, it wasn't.

:14:54.:14:59.

Senior Republicans are furiously trying to shut down the Donald Trump

:15:00.:15:02.

show as the field of candidates narrows.

:15:03.:15:04.

Republican National Security leaders have united in their condemnation

:15:05.:15:06.

In an open letter, they write of his swings from isolationism

:15:07.:15:10.

to military adventurism in the space of a sentence,

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and warn his ideas are inconsistent and unmoored in principle.

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So what do they make of him in West Virginia -

:15:15.:15:17.

a state that has historically contributed more to the US military

:15:18.:15:19.

And where Donald Trump finds the highest level of support

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Emily went to the Mountain State to find out.

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Just 90 minutes west of Interstate 495, otherwise known

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as the Washington Beltway, you find this, West Virginia -

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another world, a place where they spit at the very mention

:15:33.:15:35.

It takes government regulation of its heavy industries almost

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personally and their demise has left a hole.

:15:41.:15:48.

The state of West Virginia is bucking the economic

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Across America, we are seeing unemployment levels falling.

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But it's also a place where you find a spirited streak of independence.

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The abolitionist John Brown rose up here.

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The state motto favours the freethinking mountaineer.

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You can't help sensing a constant air of self defence.

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This West Virginia town of Harpers Ferry lies

:16:11.:16:13.

at the confluence of some of the fiercest fighting

:16:14.:16:15.

That legacy of battle lies firmly within the state.

:16:16.:16:24.

West Virginia historically has made the highest contribution

:16:25.:16:26.

to the American military of anywhere else in America.

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No coincidence perhaps that this is the state

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We head here, to Romney, to find out.

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Romney is not a name Donald Trump much warms to nowadays

:16:44.:16:45.

but we want to understand if its people warm to Trump and,

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He has promised to make America great again.

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In Doodles Bar, I ask Frank, a Vietnam veteran who has made

:16:59.:17:01.

West Virginia his home, what he makes of it.

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It seems we lost a sense of our inner pride, what made us

:17:07.:17:09.

And it seems everybody just wants a free ride.

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Hatchet puts it yet more unflinchingly.

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Someone like a Ronald Reagan, even though he was like a movie star

:17:20.:17:23.

when he got in, but he had balls and he stood up to everybody.

:17:24.:17:30.

Who is your Ronald Reagan this time round?

:17:31.:17:34.

Donald Trump thinks he is but I don't think he is.

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Many forget they hated Reagan when he started out but,

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rightly or wrongly, he's come to be seen as the president who got things

:17:41.:17:45.

right, prioritised defence spending without overwhelming loss of life.

:17:46.:17:47.

He kept his wars cold, in other words.

:17:48.:17:52.

Over a game of pool, I begin to understand the dilemma

:17:53.:17:54.

They want to see America as unvanquishable, a proud,

:17:55.:17:59.

resilient nation, but they are in no doubt that war is too costly in both

:18:00.:18:03.

I think that, really, we are the best country

:18:04.:18:14.

But I think we can't take care of everybody.

:18:15.:18:29.

Trump has always made much of his affection for veterans,

:18:30.:18:31.

but it's hard to know how he'd interact on the world stage -

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Would he continue the retrenchment started by Obama or does

:18:35.:18:37.

making America great again involve military might?

:18:38.:18:44.

We have three trains of thought in competition.

:18:45.:18:46.

going back to that traditional American leadership

:18:47.:18:48.

or a neo-isolationism pulling us back from the world even more,

:18:49.:18:50.

or kind of lashing out, as Donald Trump articulates it,

:18:51.:18:53.

where we just go after problems that bother us because we've

:18:54.:18:55.

The question for America fundamentally is whether Trump

:18:56.:19:05.

means what he says - whether he believes his wall,

:19:06.:19:08.

that concrete embodiment of xenophobia, will actually be

:19:09.:19:11.

built to keep Mexicans out or whether, as Vanity Fair puts it,

:19:12.:19:14.

his love of saying the outrageous almost now borders

:19:15.:19:16.

What he would really do as President?

:19:17.:19:23.

To go and round up 11 million people and deport them would create such

:19:24.:19:28.

a police presence and such a police state it would be an unimaginable.

:19:29.:19:34.

I can't believe anyone would actually do it or even

:19:35.:19:40.

think it was doable, but that's what he

:19:41.:19:42.

I think we're all at a loss as to what's going to happen.

:19:43.:19:46.

In last night's TV debate, he struck a note of diplomacy

:19:47.:19:49.

in dealings with Russia, selling himself as the broker,

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Wouldn't it be nice if we could get along with Russia, we could get

:19:52.:19:56.

along with foreign countries, instead of spending

:19:57.:19:57.

Warmer words for Putin than for those on the stage with him

:19:58.:20:03.

Watch where it got properly low-budget.

:20:04.:20:09.

If they are small, something else must be small.

:20:10.:20:15.

I guarantee you, there is no problem.

:20:16.:20:18.

And, when you've finished cringing, consider this.

:20:19.:20:25.

He's a man insecure enough to big up what commentators

:20:26.:20:27.

here would call his manhood on American TV.

:20:28.:20:29.

Perhaps, if his sense of masculinity is that important,

:20:30.:20:31.

all bets are off when it comes to how he sees America

:20:32.:20:34.

So what does the popularity of Trump tell us about America's mindset

:20:35.:20:47.

at the moment - is it a country turning in on itself?

:20:48.:20:50.

And is this idea of retrenchment a bigger phenomenon?

:20:51.:20:52.

Europe is becoming increasingly fractious and fractured

:20:53.:20:54.

amid a deepening row about migration.

:20:55.:20:59.

And of course there is this summer's EU referendum here.

:21:00.:21:01.

And all of this happening against the backdrop

:21:02.:21:03.

of an increasingly bellicose Vladimir Putin and a murderous

:21:04.:21:05.

Are the ties that hold the West together weakening

:21:06.:21:14.

To discuss I am joined from Oxford by Professor Timothy Garton Ash,

:21:15.:21:18.

professor of European Studies, from Yale by Timothy Snyder,

:21:19.:21:21.

historian of Central and Eastern Europe; and here

:21:22.:21:23.

in London by Anne Applebaum, the writer and historian.

:21:24.:21:33.

Good evening, Timothy Snyder, what you to think is the Trumpian view of

:21:34.:21:41.

world policy? It is hard to say foreign policy requires some sense

:21:42.:21:44.

of your nation's interests, there has been no line on that, it

:21:45.:21:49.

requires some sense of what your nation's capabilities are, he has

:21:50.:21:52.

said little about that. As far as one takes a or shack test, there are

:21:53.:21:59.

three main thing, the first is antagonising latsen America, destab

:22:00.:22:03.

hiding Mexico, the second is antagonising the Muslim world,

:22:04.:22:06.

talking about killing family, deporting people, talking about not

:22:07.:22:12.

letting refugees in and the third is substituting our long and important

:22:13.:22:17.

relationship with Europe and European Union for a personal Chummy

:22:18.:22:21.

relationship with Vladimir Putin of rush. And on those three, why is it,

:22:22.:22:26.

do you think they strike a chord with some American, especially those

:22:27.:22:31.

who are not doing very well and see their money go out into foreign

:22:32.:22:34.

enterprise? It is, from from the point of view of the rest of world

:22:35.:22:39.

America seem like champion of Golubevlisation, from the point of

:22:40.:22:44.

view o a lot of the electorate they feel like a victim. There are people

:22:45.:22:51.

who have an understandable sense be are overextended, they are taking

:22:52.:22:54.

the pain of globalisation, what Trump offers is a kind of life

:22:55.:22:59.

coaching, a way of jumping over our own shadow where instead of having a

:23:00.:23:02.

measured policy, he simply is going to assert that we are great, and

:23:03.:23:07.

then improvise from there. Anne Applebaum on that point, you have

:23:08.:23:11.

written a piece in the Washington Post with what might ham in a Trump

:23:12.:23:15.

presidency, and it is a break down of the west. One of the

:23:16.:23:18.

possibilities that we now have in front of us and it is not only the

:23:19.:23:23.

Trump presidency but the EU referendum, the French election next

:23:24.:23:27.

year, any one of a number of things that could happen, one of the

:23:28.:23:30.

possibilities is a break down of what we call the west, and what we

:23:31.:23:34.

call the western alliance, and it is a sort of thing we have relied on

:23:35.:23:39.

for 60 years, it is always been there, it has created this space of

:23:40.:23:44.

prosperity and stability. It has allowed people to get on with their

:23:45.:23:48.

lives and we have stopped caring about it. In order to maintain it,

:23:49.:23:52.

that requires a, not just an American President, but it requires

:23:53.:23:55.

European leaders as well, who are willing to invest in the boring and

:23:56.:24:01.

sometimes repetitive task of making deals, and compromising and

:24:02.:24:04.

negotiations and none of that seems to work any more in an era when

:24:05.:24:10.

people want to hear loud exclamations and reality TS

:24:11.:24:12.

personalities. Professor Timothy Garton Ash how dangerous a moment do

:24:13.:24:17.

you this I think is? I wish I could be more cheerful than your other two

:24:18.:24:20.

guests but I think that is right. I think we are in danger also of

:24:21.:24:24.

seeing the ebeginning of the end of the European Union. One would have

:24:25.:24:30.

to say that historically, the west as a geopolitical actor was held

:24:31.:24:35.

together by having a common enemy, Nazi Germany and the axis powers and

:24:36.:24:41.

the Soviet Union through the Cold War, the problem is that we have

:24:42.:24:46.

multiple common enemies, Islamic terrorism and home-grown in Europe,

:24:47.:24:50.

an aggressive Russia under Vladimir Putin and a rising China which is

:24:51.:24:56.

building artificial islands with rocket launchers in the South China

:24:57.:24:59.

Seas, one of the things which has happened which is a long-term

:25:00.:25:04.

change, is that America is focussing increasingly and perhaps rightsly on

:25:05.:25:09.

a rising China, as its great power rival, -- rightly. That leaves us in

:25:10.:25:15.

Europe to face up to the challenges of Islamic terrorism and

:25:16.:25:20.

particularly of Russia, which we are singularly failing to do. No

:25:21.:25:24.

guarantee, Anne was talking about Nato and so force Ford, but no

:25:25.:25:28.

guarantee for example that trouble in Europe would bring America in

:25:29.:25:34.

under a Trump presidency, there is no guarantee he might not do this

:25:35.:25:37.

deal with this guy Putin that he seems to like and leave us standing.

:25:38.:25:44.

As far as one can make out, Trump understands international politics

:25:45.:25:48.

in terms of personal relationships and he has instinctive attractions

:25:49.:25:52.

to certain figures which would be men of a certain age and political

:25:53.:25:58.

proclivities o, so that puts him in a camp with people like berl sew

:25:59.:26:02.

any. Or Putin. That he would care about European interests is hard to

:26:03.:26:07.

imagine, it is not clear he cares about US interest, one has to have a

:26:08.:26:11.

sense object what America's place in the world ought to be, aside from

:26:12.:26:16.

the kind of Mars tips tick cheerleading we have got so far.

:26:17.:26:20.

Where have the seeds of this come from, do you think The seeds of this

:26:21.:26:26.

in the US? In the US and Europe. This retrenchment, this upset and

:26:27.:26:30.

unhappiness within Europe. You have talked about the fact we might be

:26:31.:26:34.

nearing the end of the European Union, where with the seeds shown? I

:26:35.:26:40.

am not sure we can describe this as the same phenomenon because in the

:26:41.:26:43.

case of the Voluntary Euthanasia Society it is the discome -- the

:26:44.:26:49.

United States it is the stagnant class and a sense of the relative

:26:50.:26:54.

decline of the United States as a great power hence the motto make

:26:55.:27:01.

America great again, I think in the case of Europe, people feel

:27:02.:27:10.

overwhelmed by a multitude of European crises, the eurozone

:27:11.:27:14.

crisis, the migrant crisis, the refugee crisis, the rise of populist

:27:15.:27:19.

zen foe nick party, what is clear is that the United States is not going

:27:20.:27:24.

to ride to our rescue, everyone under, by the way, a President

:27:25.:27:28.

Hillary Clinton, which is in fact the most likely outcome, because a

:27:29.:27:33.

candidate Trump makes a President Clinton much more likely. So, Anne,

:27:34.:27:38.

you talked about the problems in Europe, you look at Hungary, the

:27:39.:27:44.

rise of right-wing leaders again, particularly in the eastern area of

:27:45.:27:48.

Europe, victor or back as one, you think where is the common connection

:27:49.:27:52.

in Europe? It seems to have disappeared so fast, perhaps because

:27:53.:27:55.

of the refugee crisis, the splits have shown, but it shows there isn't

:27:56.:28:01.

actually common cause. Well there was a sense until 20082009 there was

:28:02.:28:06.

a sense that Europe was a kind of island of prosperity and stability

:28:07.:28:09.

in the world, and that integrating wit... And democracy worked. Yes and

:28:10.:28:15.

integrating and growing with us was the best way forward. That was so

:28:16.:28:20.

automatic people didn't think about alternatives. Since the time of the

:28:21.:28:25.

crash in 2008, the eurozone crash in 2009 people began to question at

:28:26.:28:28.

that point whether this is right for my country, is it going the right

:28:29.:28:34.

way. That said I wouldn't say it is an east European problem, I would

:28:35.:28:40.

say it is a pan-Europe problem it has shown itself in flukes in

:28:41.:28:43.

particular place, the rise of the right. Right isn't the right word

:28:44.:28:51.

any more because the National Front has left-wing economics but populist

:28:52.:28:54.

language and the rise of similar parties in the Netherlands and other

:28:55.:29:00.

parts of the world, Europe, are the same, so I think it is a growing

:29:01.:29:06.

problem across the Continent. You wanted in there I wanted to say as

:29:07.:29:11.

does the governing party in Poland. It is a mistake to see this as just

:29:12.:29:17.

an east European problem. It is a pan-Europe problem, it also is to be

:29:18.:29:22.

observed that Vladimir Putin is very keen on Marine Le Pen and reportedly

:29:23.:29:27.

helped to fund her party, Europe at the moment in its disunity is giving

:29:28.:29:34.

Putin's Russia many opportunities to divide and rule. I could I just add

:29:35.:29:40.

this is therefore particularly frivolous moment for Britain to be

:29:41.:29:44.

contemplating leaving the European Union. That is a prospect that fills

:29:45.:29:50.

the United States with horror, and Vladimir Putin with delight.

:29:51.:29:56.

Timothy Snyder, if the 20th century was America's century that would not

:29:57.:30:00.

necessarily be the case in the 21st, do you think? I think that is still

:30:01.:30:05.

wide-open. What I would say about the 20th century is this. The common

:30:06.:30:09.

trend we see in the remarks of colleagues here, is the rise of

:30:10.:30:14.

national populism, whether it is in Russia, Poland, Hungary, France or

:30:15.:30:21.

the United States. What national populism has in common is awe.

:30:22.:30:25.

Leaders can support each other, what they can do is build commence

:30:26.:30:29.

structure, what the history tells us is there was never a good moment

:30:30.:30:33.

when nations were alone, so the institutions that hold us together,

:30:34.:30:40.

whether it is the the European Union, they are more important than

:30:41.:30:44.

we think. Russia or France or Hungary alone has no place to go. If

:30:45.:30:50.

we forgot that we should think again about the crucial decades of 20th

:30:51.:30:54.

centuries. Finally, if there is something to be optimistic about.

:30:55.:30:58.

What is it? Is there something that can hold us together I think the

:30:59.:31:03.

ideals of the west and the idealles of democracy are things that people

:31:04.:31:06.

care about and will fight for. In each of the countries you mentioned

:31:07.:31:12.

where there is a rise of populism or authoritarianism, there has been a

:31:13.:31:16.

push back and an argument, so it isn't as if it has disappear it has

:31:17.:31:20.

been challenged in a more severe way, than we are used to. Thank you

:31:21.:31:22.

all very much. The front pages, the times Osbourne

:31:23.:31:31.

abandons assault on pension, threat of a new Tory revolt before a

:31:32.:31:36.

referendum. That is because the risks of Tory MPs derailing his

:31:37.:31:41.

leadership hopes. Hopes. The FT is doing the same story. And finally,

:31:42.:31:46.

again, in the Guardian, Chancellor backs down on pension this is a

:31:47.:31:52.

story we reported op last night. So these are tomorrow morning's

:31:53.:31:53.

front-pages. Now for arts night. This week's show is an encounter

:31:54.:31:56.

between the superstar author Karl Ove Knausgaard,

:31:57.:31:58.

who mines his personal life for his books, and the neurosurgeon

:31:59.:32:00.

Henry Marsh, author of the memoir Do No Harm, which details his

:32:01.:32:03.

life in brain surgery. Both figures are obsessed

:32:04.:32:05.

with the importance and dangers And we should say this programme

:32:06.:32:07.

contains some scenes of surgery. Your father was a very

:32:08.:32:29.

dominating element in your life. Do you think that troubled

:32:30.:32:34.

relationship with him has been a driving force behind

:32:35.:32:36.

what you wrote?

:32:37.:32:42.

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