With Evan Davis. The latest on the European Union's migrant deal with Turkey, Maria Sharapova's drug revelation and is email dead?
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Is this the moment that chaos turns to order in Europe,
as the EU conscripts Turkey into its attempt to control migrants
Turkey's just a stone's throw away. It's not hard to understand the
sense of vulnerability that Greeks feel, a sense of exposure.
and we'll ask this Turkish politician whether Turkey and the EU
are now friends for real or for convenience.
Also tonight, Maria Sharapova admits taking a performance-enhancing drug
I made a huge mistake. I've let my fans down. I've let this sport down,
that I've been playing since the age of four, that I love so deeply.
Also tonight: To mark the death of the man who invented it,
we look at the rise and fall of e-mail.
If you are a middle to senior manager, you end up at the end of
the day with hundreds of e-mails and then, there's a likelihood that
you've missed a really important one.
After months of muddle, the European Union tried to get
a grip on its migrant problem today, in some serious talks with Turkey.
The EU wants Turkey to hold onto migrants outside the EU,
rather than let them cross over to Greece and the chaos there.
But there's a price - Turkey has spotted an opportunity
to get some favours in return - billions of euros, visa-free travel
to the EU for its citizens, renewed talk of EU membership,
and perhaps discretion over an unseemly clampdown on press
Before we get into the complex politics of this negotiation,
Turkey is right now coping with 3.1 million refugees.
They are arriving there at a rate of some 3,000 every
Hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees are in camps,
but the vast majority - 90% - are not, as these pictures
Bear in mind, Turkey has more to deal with than the rest
Like the British with Calais, the EU wants to keep the migrants
Turkey is asking for money to help provide for its migrants.
With this new proposal, our objective is to rescue the lives of
the refugees, to discourage those who want to misuse and exploit the
desperate situation of the refugees, meaning human smugglers. To fight
against human smugglers, and to have a new era in Turkish-EU relations.
For those stuck in Turkey, though, the EU is a sunlit upland.
About 1,500 leave for the EU each day, about half are Syrian.
The main route to get to the West, the Balkan route, takes migrants
to Greece by boat, then onwards and upwards through some combination
of Macedonia, Serbia, then into the EU over the Hungarian
These routes are becoming restricted, although other potential
The Lithuanian president tweeted today that "migrants move faster
So is there a deal that can regulate the stocks and flows of people
in manageable numbers, and better provide for those
That's the goal, but you have to remember the EU is not a thing.
It is a multinational network of things with
Gabriel Gatehouse has been following migrant routes around
Europe, and he's back from travelling with me now.
Gabriel, let's just start with these fairly extraordinary talks, very
broad talks with Turkey today. They've been talking. They're still
talking. We have some suggestion of what a deal might consist of.
There's a draft proposal on the table. The nub of it is that Turkey
will stop the crossings, behinder the people traffickers and take back
refugees and migrants from Greece in return for a lot of money. The Turks
are asking for 6 billion euros. The sceptics would say they were offered
three billion late last year and the migrant crossings didn't decrease.
They want accelerated accession talks to the EU and visa-free
travel. The most controversial bit of the whole thing is one-for-one
proposal. If Nato ships or Greek coastguard find a boat in the Aegean
sea with 50 people aboard, ten of which are Syrians, all of those
people will be sent back to Turkey. But the EU in return will take ten
different Syrians in Turkey and resettle them. This is the
controversy holding up talks. You need then some settle for resettling
them in Europe. That takes us to the intra-EU battle, not between the EU
and Turkey, but how the EU will cope. There are only two countries
in the EU who want a quota system for resettlement, that's Germany and
Greece. David Cameron said tonight that Britain wouldn't take part as a
rock-solid opt out. Other countries who don't have that opt out are
opposed. Hungary and other eastern European nations, Austria for one.
What we have is this problem that the EU cannot agree on where the
migrants should go. That is holding up the talks. Inside Greece it's
filling up. The borders are blocked. I've been on the island of Lesbos,
right in the east, near the Turkish border, where many of the refugees
have been arriving. If you're looking for visual
metaphors, there's no shortage Each new boat that crashes ashore
threatens to sink any attempt Today they focused on trying
to reduce the number of migrants But the journey across the water is,
in some places, as little No-one expects the flow
to stop any time soon. And so mainland Europe
is fortifying its borders, building walls and fences
to keep the migrants out. Greece, meanwhile, fears
it is turning from tourist destination to refugee camp,
becoming a giant holding centre Out here on these eastern islands,
with Turkey almost a stone's throw away, it's not hard to understand
the sense of vulnerability that Greeks feel - a sense of exposure,
of being out on a limb, right on the edge of
the European Union. More than 2,000 migrants reached
Greece this morning. They will make their way
to Athens, but what then? As long as they route onwards
towards northern Europe remains The Coast Guard is out on patrol
here nearly every day. The EU and Nato want
Turkey to take back those For now, Greek policy is to rescue
any migrants they find in their territorial waters
and bring them back to Greece. There is little faith in Turkish
promises to help stem No matter what they say in Brussels,
the refugees and migrants will not And even if they did,
that wouldn't solve the wider problem of what to do with those
who are already in Greece - Here and in Germany,
they want other member states to take a larger
share of the burden. But in the rest of the EU,
there's little appetite Lesbos has a population
of a little over 85,000. In the midst of the financial
crisis, you might expect anger from the locals on an island
that relies largely But we found little
evidence of that. We saw local people barbecuing
meat and feeding it, for free, to slightly
bemused migrants. But this has all meant a radical
rethink of their economic model. So you have just changed
your business model? From Turkish tourists,
now it has become like Syrian You know what, we make money, but it
hurts us. We don't want to make money with these people.
They left their families, but we have to work to survive.
We are making money, but it doesn't make us happy.
It is an odd thing, but here on the front line
of the most acute refugee crisis since the Second World War,
there is little of the angst you see elsewhere in Europe.
As the leaders in Brussels hold make-or-break talks about the future
of Shengon, and Nato deploys ships to the Aegean,
on Lesbos they are just getting on with life.
A sense that whatever obstacles are thrown in their path,
the refugees and migrants will keep on coming.
Apart from the Greeks, the Germans are most keen
They made a commitment to refugees and want to stick to it,
but without helping the entire world at the same time.
Earlier tonight, I spoke to a German minister, Jens Spahn,
I started by asking him if a deal at the summit today would be enough
Well, this agreement with Turkey is an important element, a key element
actually, to get a sustainable solution for the migrant crisis,
especially when it comes to the Aegean sea. As soon as it is
understood, don't pay the mugler, don't go on this dangerous journey,
just over the sea, because you will be brought back any way.
But first of all, we need to end this irregular migration
and that is what the talks are about.
if Greece and Turkey and the whole European Union are working together.
Just to be clear, you are still requiring, aren't you,
a quota system for the EU to act, to take some migrants from Turkey,
some refugees from Turkey, and settle them in the EU?
To take some who are now trapped in Greece, who may not get
And take them and settle them in the EU.
You need a quota system for Europe to work?
First of all, we are talking with Turkey now, and that is part
of the agreement, to help Turkey to deal with the refugees
and the migrants within Turkey itself,
to help them for the shelter, for the food.
Second step would be to take some of these,
especially by the way, women and children, not just young
men, as it is right now coming via the West Balkan route,
but I really do think that as soon as we have regained the control
of our border, we might get more support for distribution in Europe.
One thing Turkey would like is to join the EU,
wonder whether you think it's faintly imaginable
in the foreseeable future that the EU could think about taking
Turkey as a member, is that going to happen?
I don't see Turkey within the EU within the next, I don't know,
That's going to take longer and it's going to be a long
And Turkey has to change, obviously, some things to join the EU.
But the truth is the EU has no interest really in helping Turkey.
It's really just about getting Turkey to enforce
I mean, Turkey has taken around three million refugees
So far, we haven't helped Turkey at all, perhaps we should
Have started earlier. That is something we should ask ourselves,
why we haven't realised that Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon as well, are
doing so much to support refugees. And so we really should help them,
and the three billion that Turkey gets in the first step is for
projects for the refugees in the To what extent in Germany
is there a sense that Germany has created part of this problem,
at least it didn't cause the problem, but created perhaps
part of it by giving a signal that Germany was so willing to accept
almost anyone that wanted to come What we all did underestimate,
I think, is the digitalisation Because pictures from Germany,
I see now in the smallest They see how we received
the refugees in the summer, that there were many
people to help them. And that made more and more people
start making the journey. And now we have to send the ominous
sign that we do want to have refugees from Syria and Iraq,
but we can't help everyone that's hoping for a
better life in Europe. Tharchlts sign needs to be sented at
the European border. That's what we're talking about.
Do you think today is the point at which the migrant
crisis turned from chaos to some kind of order?
Today, that is an important key element for this,
and an agreement with Turkey is not the whole solution,
but it is an important step to find a common
Now, negotiating inside the EU may be annoying, but it's particularly
complicated when you bring Turkey into the room.
The country has been trying to get into the EU since 1987,
but its size, its level of development and, more recently,
the slim commitment of its government to the values
of freedom and democracy has made it all very difficult.
It's not helped by the trials of people who are guilty only
This week, an unfortunate juxtaposition: we want
a favour from Turkey, just as the largest-circulation
newspaper has been put under control of trustees at the order of a court,
more or less turning it from anti-government to pro.
The editor of that newspaper told us what that episode represents.
A tragic day for media and for Zaman and for our staff
Because it was a big raid, with tear gas and lots of police
and it was a very sad day for freedom of expression in Turkey.
But it was not something unexpected because as the newspaper,
we had previous three similar raids in just two years and when you look
at what is happening in Turkey, these days, last week two TV
If you're critical of government policies or Erdogan's policies,
And unfortunately Turkey's ranking in democracy and in EU orientation
And that leads Turkey into an authoritarian
And the level of critique is not enough to change the situation
So this is saddening, especially with regard to the EU.
Yes, there are a lot of critics and the suppression of freedom
of media, but it is not at a level that could change the
So I was expecting that the Democratic friends of Turkey
to do more to support not the journalists,
but to support Turkish democracy and the Turkish people.
So I guess there's a lack of understanding in terms of some
of our international friends, our European friends,
that democracy is not seen as important as Syrian refugees.
The refugee problem is very important.
But the freedom of media and democracy is as important,
as strategic as that, as crucial as that.
So if you leave Turkey to an authoritarian tendency,
in this way, that is the risk of ending up making Turkey and other
And this is a very important risk for the stability of the country.
I'm joined down the line from Ankara by Ravza Kavaci,
an MP and member of the Central Decision Executive Committee
Thank you for joining us. It is much later in Turkey that it is here.
Just start with this newspaper, Zaman at what happened there. You
embarrassed by the fact that a major newspaper, the main selling
newspaper, has been taken over by the authorities in your country?
Actually there is nothing to be embarrassed about because this was a
part of the ongoing case, it was not something against the newspaper, it
was an ongoing case that had allegations of tax evasion, fraud
and insider trading. And someone is one part of the company that is
being alleged, alleged and investigated on these matters. That
is why it is an ongoing case and because they are under
investigation, it just happens to be a media company, and it is being
investigated by the government. It just so happens that the editorials
over the weekend or more pro-government ban on Friday. There
are many cases, almost 2000, people put on trial or intimidated for the
offence of insulting the president. It is just so foreign to us to have
a crime like that, a guy lost his job as a doctor for comparing the
president to Gollum. Is that now normal in Turkey? No, if it is
against the law, if someone swears at the president, that is the case
in many countries, he has the right to take them to court just like
ordinary citizens, like we do. And in Turkey Digi Giaccherini is of
course separate, there is a separation of powers. -- the
judiciary is separate. Turkey is much bigger than it was ten years
ago, 15 years ago, so there will be more cases and people are able to
swear and insult whoever they wish. But it is also the people who get
insulted have the right to take these people who tried to
assassinate their characters to court. Like they do in Europe. I'm
all in favour of respecting other cultures but your Prime Minister
said today in Brussels Turkey is ready to be a member of the EU.
There are very few people the EU who will look at what your president has
done, banning Twitter for while, trying to put people on trial for
insulting him. Just as was the case in Europe. Do you acknowledge that
Turkey is 1 million miles from being ready to join the EU? Turkey has
been on the way to EU membership since 1964. Bulgaria got in, many
European countries got in. And Turkey underwent, took over the EU
harmonisation process, whether relations with the EU work will not.
So Turkey has gone a long way. And I do not think that there's anything
wrong with EU membership process. I think when we talk about European
values, what we were just talking about right before the Zaman case on
TV, came on TV, we were talking about the refugee crisis. When we
talk about European values I think first, human rights, the right to
live. The gentleman from Zaman was comparing democracy with human life,
I respect his opinions but when people are being killed in Syria,
and when the whole world is doing almost nothing and Turkey has been
hosting all these people, you cannot compare, there's importance of
democracy when there is no life. I hear what you're saying. Very
briefly, after this deal, does the behaviour of Turkey change with
regards to how it enforces the border with Greece, the GMC? -- the
agency # it will not change, it will continue. Turkey is trying to
discourage people from taking to the sea and we are saddened by all the
lives that are lost in Syria and all the lives that are lost after who
are trying to go into Europe, hoping for a better life. Turkey has been
hosting almost 3 million people, you said that on your news. So we are
doing our best. We're out time, thank you so much.
Not long before we went on air this evening,
the tennis superstar Maria Sharapova - former women's world number one,
now number seven - admitted to having taken a banned
She was taking it for a decade when it was not prohibited,
but it became illegal this year, and she didn't realise
that what she was taking had been put on the banned list.
She gave the news herself at a press conference in Los Angeles.
And I have let my fans down, I have let the sport down,
that I have been playing since the age of four,
I know that with this, I face consequences and I don't
And I really hope that I will be given
I'm joined now by Matthew Syed, a journalist. That is a big name to be
caught up in a drug test, Maria Sharapova. She's not the greatest
tennis player of all-time, not as good as Serena Williams, or some of
the giants that came before but in commercial terms and exposure times
she's the biggest female athlete probably of all time. She is topped
the Forbes list of highest earning female sportswomen for the past 11
years and one of the reasons for this is she's very sophisticated in
how she harnessed and exploited her brand. A whole range of product. A
whole lot, some sugar candy and stuff. Everything. Ironic given that
she says she was taking the drug for diabetes. Let's talk about this
drug, it became illegal on the 1st of January this year. Is this
happening all the time, they bring in new things and said it is now
illegal. It is an arms race between athletes and chemists who want to
subvert the rules with highly sophisticated substances that are
either currently not banned or currently undetectable. And the
world and it up in authority which is trying to catch the sheet the --
these cheats. So every year a new list of substances is announced by
Wada. They said there were suspicious of it but clearly she
made a mistake. Even if she's not taking it for medical reason but
performance enhancing reasons, it was still had been in Heron interest
to stop taking it in January. She was taking it for medical reasons,
is at the case that many people were taking the drug for medical reasons
and really where they put aside, particular cases, is it medical or
performance enhancing? Rather a lot of athletes seem to have had a
medical condition who needed a drug but not many people who were not
athletes needed to use it. So there is the pattern, not just Maria
Sharapova, but the Russian ice dancer admitted to having taken this
drug and been banned also today. A series of distance runners, so it
may have had an effect on endurance. I looked at some pharmacological
effects and there is a suspicion that it boosts endurance. How easy
is it to make a mistake, you get an e-mail from Wada saying this drug is
now illegal, I think she said she did not take on the thing, it had a
couple of names. Is it easy basically to take something and not
realise it has been put on a banned list maybe there should be a couple
of weeks of grace or something because she was caught pretty soon
after the ban. The list is huge and it is difficult to keep track. As a
journalist it is easy to take responsibility is on the athlete. It
was a terrible mistake. I was an athlete and it is difficult to keep
up. The fact that she has a team around, that she took the substance
and she not warned by her team, you must issue she did not know. --
assume. However given the prevalence of this, but so many have been
caught in this way, you would expect someone of her stature to have
noticed. Is she going to get the book thrown at her, because she has
had a lot of injuries, not to get at get out of jail card. I think the
biggest thing for her, a few years ago she gave a press conference and
said she wanted to take hold of her brand. The first sportsman to
exploit his band was Michael Jordan who transformed the national
celebrity endorsement. It is a massive feature of modern
capitalism. Maria Sharapova did the same thing and now her fight is not
necessary in tennis but for hearts and minds. More than anyone else,
she does not want her brand to be solid and image destroyed. Thank
you. more, Everybody can more, remember
who invented the telephone, but not so many know
the name Ray Tomlinson - the man credited with inventing
e-mail, who died on Saturday. What he created was a huge advance,
not least in that it's hard to think of what that @ sign
was for until he conscripted it But telephone voice calls
are in decline, and the evidence is that e-mail is past its prime
too, as Ray Tomlinson's Dear e-mail, I'm not saying
we haven't had our moments, but I'm afraid I just
don't love you any more. Ray Tomlinson's invention
was clearly brilliant, # I'm a slave to work...
# For today's office workers,
e-mail is not all good. Is it a blessing or a
curse, do you think? I think we are overloaded with
e-mail, both at work and socially. If it's used efficiently
and correctly, actually managed and controlled, it's a huge
blessing, obviously. But the way it is, it's out
of control at the moment. You get e-mails even if you're sat
next to the person at the moment. So it's quite difficult
to manage it. One of the worst cultures is where
people are continually in meetings. Their teams and the people they work
with have no other way to communicate with them, and so,
if you are a middle to senior manager, you end up at the end
of the day with hundreds of e-mails and then there's a likelihood that
you've missed a very important one. We have made it all
things to all men. We have made it a tool to manage
with, which it's not. The best form of management
is still to walk and talk. It can sometimes feel that you're
sat at the bottom of a vast pit It's a sort of crowd source to-do
list, created by people who don't necessarily share your objectives
or much value your time. Imagine the internal e-mails
that the 100,000 employees The company has had enough
and is moving to a business Facebook at work will help us drive
a more collaborative, distributed, nonhierarchical culture
across our organisation in ways that traditional tools, such
as e-mail, simply can't. I think when we think about e-mail,
we often find it's used It is hierarchical, it's a one-way
flow of information. And we believe that Facebook
would work will enable us to do something very different, in ways
that will benefit our customers. In fact, more and more companies
are moving to alternate platforms like Slack - now worth
an estimated $5 billion. E-mail, says Slack's CEO,
has two huge drawbacks. One is that no matter
who you are in the organisation, no matter your rank or title,
you have this very narrow slice of all communication that is
available to you and everything else And when that person
leaves, it's gone. The second problem is
when you arrive on your first day at work, at an organisation
where the primary means of communication is e-mail,
you have access to nothing. There might have been millions,
or tens of millions, or even hundreds of millions
of messages exchanged before With Slack, you create channels
for communication for separate Employees can opt into the ones that
are useful to them and ignore There is not less stuff,
but your relationship Rather than someone adding it
to your e-mail, which effectively makes it an item on your to-do list,
that you either have to archive it or delete it or respond to it,
they just have the conversation with the people who are involved
in it and who can check-in. So you get access to much more
information without it being something that
you need to deal with. Take ownership of messages
with Core's revolutionary message Your super-sensitive, secret e-mail
could be forwarded anywhere. Core is a new collaborative
platform, launched just last month, that allows companies to control
who can see information and even So if you look at history,
in all cases, we've lost control We put a note on a carrier pigeon,
or we put a letter in a mailbox, We don't know and we can't control
what the recipient does with it. And in many cases,
that's a massive risk. That could be intellectual property
- that could be pricing, that could be strategy -
it is information that you may not want somebody else to forward
to another organisation. You may not want them
to save an attachment and reuse it E-mail, of course, won't disappear,
just as paper mail still exists. But the future probably belongs
to smarter communications, powered perhaps by
artificial intelligence. We need to realise that
what was supposed to liberate us, Office workers of the world unite,
you have nothing to lose Business people are in demand
like never before in Both sides want endorsements
of their point of view. And journalists want to interview
big business names to ask that most penetrating question:
"Are you in or out?" Well, we're joined now
by a big business name. Inga Beale is chief executive
of Lloyds of London, She's been in that job
for over two years. She's getting ready to speak
to the Women of the Work Festival at the South Bank in London
tomorrow, which is International We will talk about that in a
moment... Women of the world. I've read it wrong. Women of the world.
We'll talk about that. First Brexit. You're an inner, correct? Yes
Lloyds, we're very much an inner. Lloyds is a big, global business. We
write business from all over the world. The European market is very,
very important for us. Currently being part of the EU means we have
trading rights in all of the EU countries. That means access to the
world's largest insurance market with over 500 million customers.
It's very important for Lloyds to be able to be part of that market. This
has become a familiar refrain that you need to be in the single market.
I just want to be clear, though, if we left the EU, could you not remain
in that 500 million-person market? With insurance it's a highly
regulated market. It means we have to get licenses in all of those
individual countries or be able to negotiate with the EU as a block.
That means a lot of uncertainty. There is no guarantee
That means a lot of uncertainty. able to negotiate trading rights
that we have right now. We're not kidding anyone that it's unlikely to
be a smooth, as it currently is. The Swiss are not in the EU. They've got
a very big, powerful insurance industry. How can they do it? They
have EU-based subsidiaries. That's how they write... Isn't that what we
would do? Lloyds is quite special. We're actually a market. We're made
up of 59 individual small businesses. So it's not just as easy
for us to go and set up one subsidiary. I just want to ask you
another one, this is an important issue. Does the EU in any way stop
you exporting your services to the United States or China, India or
Brazil? The EU enhances that because the EU, because of the trading
block, because it's a big block, once it's all together, it has
trading agreements with 55 different other markets around the world. We
benefit from being part of that. This is important, you're basically
saying the right to leave the EU and then sign our own deal with the US
would be worse than staying in the EU? The US have actually stated they
don't want to have all sorts of individual trade agreements.
Currently we feel that we're much better off with the EU negotiating
with the US. What do you think of Boris Johnson, he's your champion
and taking the opposite view. I won't comment on other people's
views. I can give you a view from the Lloyds perspective. It's
international women's day in about 45 minutes. It starts tomorrow. The
role of women in business, I mean you've written a lot about this and
had quite a long and illustrious career. It's improved over the
years? Oh, I think it's improved dramatically. When I started working
in the 80s, there was hardly a female role model around. In fact,
just to touch on that women of the world festival, this was really was
Jude Kellie's idea. There were no female role models. We see many more
now. Are you a believer in quotas, prep women on boards? It's
interesting because I benefitted from being part of a pro-active
talent management programme many years ago. I worked for a global, US
firm. They had a pro-active talent management. They set targets for
females, targets for ethnic minorities. I didn't know it at the
time, but I benefitted dramatically from that. You were a quota and you
didn't realise. And I didn't realise. A secret quota. I knew when
I got more senior. Why don't you do it at Lloyds? We do have some
targets set. One of the issues when you mention boards is that we're
governed by a council. That's an elected body. Of course, they tend
to reflect the Lloyds market. But we're making improvements. So the
Lloyds market, we've got 59 individual businesses in there,
three of them are now run by women. Yes or no to quotas? That is where
the debate is to some extent. You are basically in favour of them? It
drives some action. I think that's what we want to see. I know I'm in
good company with people like Christine Legarde. What about
primary school teachers, they're mainly women. Should we have quotas
in primary schools. It's important to have diversity for the kids?
Right, so, I was at the world World Economic Forum earlier this year. I
had the privilege to meet the Luxembourg prime minister. He
informed me of what they do, a nice, neutral country, neutral image. They
wanted to make sure that there was parity in their political parties.
They introduced 40% minimum women and 40% minimum men. So no bias
towards either gender. I thought, well, what a wonderful solution.
Thank you for coming in. Thank you. Emily will be here tomorrow, until
then, good night.
In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.
The latest on the European Union's migrant deal with Turkey, Maria Sharapova's drug revelation and is email dead? Plus the Lloyds CEO on the EU referendum.