09/03/2016 Newsnight


09/03/2016

With Evan Davis. The pilot who gave the finger to the Russian courts. How's Brexit playing with the public? Why is teen pregnancy down? Kidnap in Mexico. George Martin.


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Transcript


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Extraordinary defiance in a Russian court.

:00:13.:00:15.

We bring you the story of that Ukrainian pilot,

:00:16.:00:18.

why she's on trial in Russia, and what it says about

:00:19.:00:20.

the unfinished conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

:00:21.:00:25.

Also tonight - Inside Mexico's ghastly kidnap industry.

:00:26.:00:44.

Remember how we used to argue about parents,

:00:45.:00:46.

Supposing for one reason or another, she prefers not

:00:47.:00:59.

to discuss it with you, but to discuss it with a doctor?

:01:00.:01:02.

And she's underage, and she's in great danger?

:01:03.:01:04.

Would you expect him to consult you about it?

:01:05.:01:07.

Well, something big has happened there.

:01:08.:01:09.

We will get a lesson on the music of Sir George Martin

:01:10.:01:19.

and just how big a difference he made to the Beatles.

:01:20.:01:33.

With so much going on in the world, you might be forgiven

:01:34.:01:38.

It is not over, but it is less intense than it was.

:01:39.:01:43.

Rather than the continual fighting of 2014, it has settled

:01:44.:01:46.

into a stalemate of sporadic skirmishes.

:01:47.:01:50.

Ukraine functions as an almost complete country,

:01:51.:01:52.

but a section in the east has hived itself off and is controlled

:01:53.:01:55.

Crimea has been formally annexed by Russia.

:01:56.:02:03.

Now right now the animosity between the two countries,

:02:04.:02:05.

is playing out through one particular case,

:02:06.:02:07.

a young Ukrainian pilot, Nadia Savchencko.

:02:08.:02:12.

Captured in 2014 by separatist forces, she now finds herself

:02:13.:02:15.

on trial in a small Russian town, for allegedly killing

:02:16.:02:17.

The case was one already picked up by European and American

:02:18.:02:28.

politicians, but it took a dramatic turn in court today.

:02:29.:02:30.

Gabriel Gatehouse has the whole story.

:02:31.:02:38.

This case contains flash photography.

:02:39.:02:48.

This is a story about a forgotten war, a war which has been pushed out

:02:49.:02:52.

of the headlines by other seemingly more pressing crises.

:02:53.:02:54.

But it hasn't gone away, and now, all the festering tensions of this

:02:55.:02:57.

frozen conflict have been focused on one woman.

:02:58.:02:59.

Through the bars of her cage in a Russian courtroom,

:03:00.:03:02.

Nadia Savchenko has become a rallying point

:03:03.:03:05.

for Ukrainians who accuse Russia of invading their countries.

:03:06.:03:10.

Today, the 34-year-old Ukrainian Air Force pilot

:03:11.:03:13.

on the system that will soon pronounce its verdict on her.

:03:14.:04:06.

On the 17th of June 2014, two Russian journalists

:04:07.:04:09.

were killed when they came under mortar fire

:04:10.:04:12.

during fighting between the Ukrainian military

:04:13.:04:15.

Savchenko was captured by the separatists.

:04:16.:04:22.

The case hinges on what time it took place.

:04:23.:04:43.

She is accused of being a spotter on the ground, of directing

:04:44.:04:46.

the mortar fire that killed the journalists.

:04:47.:04:47.

Nadia Savchenko is Ukraine's most prominent female officer.

:04:48.:05:19.

Here she is in a promotional film produced by

:05:20.:05:22.

She says the separatists who captured her, handed her over

:05:23.:05:28.

to Russian special forces, who then took her across the border.

:05:29.:05:31.

The purpose of the operation, her lawyers say, was to portray

:05:32.:05:34.

Moscow says Savchenko crossed into Russia

:05:35.:06:02.

The government has reacted angrily to calls

:06:03.:06:07.

for her release from senior US and EU officials.

:06:08.:06:32.

In Kiev this afternoon, they gathered to protest

:06:33.:06:36.

Here, Nadia Savchenko has become a national symbol of defiance.

:06:37.:06:42.

Outside the courthouse in Russia, Savchenko's mother

:06:43.:06:44.

When it comes, there will be little doubt about the verdict,

:06:45.:07:08.

and the sentence is likely to be a lengthy one.

:07:09.:07:12.

But this case is about much more than the fate of one woman now.

:07:13.:07:17.

Nadia Savchenko has become the embodiment of a conflict

:07:18.:07:20.

Joining me now in the studio is Marina Pesenti,

:07:21.:07:29.

director of the Ukrainian Institute in London, and from Moscow -

:07:30.:07:32.

Marina, I will start with you, because it is hard to overstate how

:07:33.:07:49.

important the case is seen in Ukraine, and what high regard Nadia

:07:50.:07:56.

Savchenko 's health? Absolutely. It is a very symbolic and high-profile

:07:57.:08:02.

case in Ukraine. There is a mixture of feelings. On one hand, it is a

:08:03.:08:10.

sense of admiration, of the courage and determination and fearlessness

:08:11.:08:15.

she has displayed, being in a very difficult situation with all the

:08:16.:08:21.

odds stacked against her. She managed to turn the tables. On the

:08:22.:08:25.

other hand, there is a feeling of indignation. The fact that the

:08:26.:08:29.

Russian Federation, apart from the fact it has annexed part of our

:08:30.:08:34.

territory and unleashed a war in another part, it also kidnaps our

:08:35.:08:38.

citizens and brings charges against them, on their territory on very

:08:39.:08:46.

trumped up charges in fact. Was she known before she was captured? No,

:08:47.:08:53.

she did not have a public profile. She was in Iraq, she had been

:08:54.:08:57.

fighting, I think she was the only woman in the Ukrainian air force so

:08:58.:09:04.

she was a notable character? Probably she was better known in the

:09:05.:09:08.

military because she is a female pilot and she is from the

:09:09.:09:13.

prestigious aviation school and she also fought in Iraq but previously,

:09:14.:09:26.

she did not have a public profile. Catty -- Katya can you tell us what

:09:27.:09:36.

the Russian perspective is? Two Russian journalists died in Ukraine

:09:37.:09:40.

two years ago when they came under shelling while filming a report

:09:41.:09:45.

about the plight of refugees, and interestingly enough, this case has

:09:46.:09:50.

attracted a lot of attention in the Western media and among Western

:09:51.:09:54.

politicians, but while there is widespread criticism of the trial

:09:55.:09:57.

itself, there is very little condemnation of the killing of the

:09:58.:10:02.

two Russian journalists in fact. Even the BBC headline article on

:10:03.:10:11.

that... I just wanted to say that 95% of that article was devoted to

:10:12.:10:14.

the trial and what Nadia Savchenko had to say in her final speech,

:10:15.:10:19.

whereas there were just three lines about how those journalists actually

:10:20.:10:23.

got killed, which was in broad daylight and they were on duty when

:10:24.:10:28.

they came under shelling. Does it matter to you whether Nadia

:10:29.:10:34.

Savchenko was involved in that, Marina, would you have any regrets

:10:35.:10:39.

over the killing of the Russian journalists? I certainly have

:10:40.:10:45.

regrets over the loss of any life but I find it paradoxical that

:10:46.:10:49.

Russia thinks it is a completely legitimate course of action, where

:10:50.:10:53.

it kidnaps a citizen of another country, and brings charges against

:10:54.:10:56.

that citizen in its own country, and we talk about what has happened, if

:10:57.:11:03.

we for a split-second imagine that the charges are fair, and that it is

:11:04.:11:08.

a crime committed by one Ukrainian citizen against other Ukrainian

:11:09.:11:11.

citizens, apart from Russian journalists there were some

:11:12.:11:16.

civilians. Russia claims it does not conduct any warfare against Ukraine,

:11:17.:11:20.

it stands for territorial integrity of Ukraine, and on the other hand,

:11:21.:11:28.

it conducts a trial of Ukrainian citizens on its territory. I dead

:11:29.:11:32.

want to go through the trial but I want to talk about relationships

:11:33.:11:38.

between Ukraine and Russia. Katya, as far as you are concerned, is the

:11:39.:11:49.

war between the two countries over? Well, before I get to explain that,

:11:50.:11:55.

I would like to reply to Marina. I just wonder whether Marina is as

:11:56.:11:58.

critical of United States that considers it perfectly normal to

:11:59.:12:02.

capture foreign citizens like they did with two Russian citizens whom

:12:03.:12:11.

the US considers criminals and just those two guys were captured on

:12:12.:12:16.

foreign soil while in Thailand and Africa and extradited to the US.

:12:17.:12:20.

There were put on trial in the US and one was imprisoned just because

:12:21.:12:26.

they are both Russian citizens, and the US did that despite Russia's

:12:27.:12:31.

objection. That, as far as the procedure is concerned, when you say

:12:32.:12:37.

it is totally unlawful for Nadia Savchenko to go on trial in Russia.

:12:38.:12:42.

As for the war between Russia and Ukraine, I would say that it is

:12:43.:12:46.

incorrect from the start to say there was a war between Russia and

:12:47.:12:51.

Ukraine, because it was a war between two groups of the Ukrainian

:12:52.:12:56.

society, those who supported the Ukrainian government and who were

:12:57.:12:59.

fighting against them. So you cannot say it was a war between Russia and

:13:00.:13:03.

Ukraine. Russia has repeatedly stated there is no war between

:13:04.:13:08.

Russia and Ukraine to be stopped. It was a civil war. It is currently no

:13:09.:13:14.

longer there, we hope, because the ceasefire is largely holding as both

:13:15.:13:20.

the warring sides... We will not have time... We can recognise it. We

:13:21.:13:26.

will not have time to pick up on all those points because Russia did an

:13:27.:13:30.

excellent territory. Where DCD status of this now? Is it over and

:13:31.:13:37.

it will stay like this in definitely? -- Wade UCB status? Do

:13:38.:13:44.

is far from over. There were reports from the Ministry of Defence

:13:45.:13:49.

reporting clashes and an exchange of fire, and shooting, from the rebels'

:13:50.:13:53.

side. And also there was a report a few years ago that even though the

:13:54.:13:59.

artillery fire had diminished, there have been cases of rocket propelled

:14:00.:14:06.

grenades launched. In terms of military activity, it is still

:14:07.:14:09.

ongoing and one has to remember that this is a hybrid war which has a lot

:14:10.:14:16.

of elements to it, security forces operations and this is ongoing. I

:14:17.:14:22.

wish we could continue this discussion but we do have to move

:14:23.:14:23.

on. Thank you. The big referendum argument today

:14:24.:14:26.

has concerned the Queen - is she an "outer", as the Sun

:14:27.:14:28.

newspaper suggests. I think that's one of those issues

:14:29.:14:30.

they call There will have to be some argument

:14:31.:14:34.

about the EU itself at some point before the referendum,

:14:35.:14:40.

but while we wait for that, don't focus on Her Majesty -

:14:41.:14:42.

who is relatively untypical Look instead at the views

:14:43.:14:44.

of ordinary voters. Outside London, Secunder Kermani

:14:45.:14:48.

went to Rochdale to do just that. There is no Eurostar are riding at

:14:49.:15:05.

this station, and that is perhaps the first sign that the membership

:15:06.:15:10.

of this model railway club just outside Rochdale are not massive

:15:11.:15:15.

fans of the EU. Is it the images of thousands of refugees streaming

:15:16.:15:18.

across the continent that is Lee's -- leading them to vote to leave?

:15:19.:15:25.

Yes, because it could be us next. I do not want to happen. When David

:15:26.:15:31.

Cameron says we do not have to take quotas of refugees... I do not

:15:32.:15:35.

believe it. I think we will. I think we will be forced to. We are ruled

:15:36.:15:39.

by Brussels and what Brussels say we have to do. The scenes on the Greek

:15:40.:15:45.

borders melding with existing grievances about previous waves of

:15:46.:15:50.

immigration, from Eastern Europe, from Pakistan, and with a perception

:15:51.:15:54.

of general decline. I have already more or less made my mind up but the

:15:55.:15:58.

refugee crisis has galvanised me even more to thinking out. If you go

:15:59.:16:03.

to the doctors are the surgeries, you are outnumbered. The NHS cannot

:16:04.:16:11.

cope, they say. One of the reasons is because there are a lot of people

:16:12.:16:16.

who have never put a high -- halfpenny into the running of

:16:17.:16:21.

England through taxes, taking a share of the money from the NHS.

:16:22.:16:30.

At this church they are listening to a lunchtime rendition of classical

:16:31.:16:35.

European composers. According to pollsters, the Northwest is almost

:16:36.:16:38.

evenly split between those in favour and those against remaining in the

:16:39.:16:42.

union. The refugee crisis is not always the main concern. It is

:16:43.:16:47.

something which is a product of this moment in time. I do not think it

:16:48.:16:53.

should necessarily colour are how the European Union is. It will come

:16:54.:16:58.

and go. We need to have compassion, we need to have humanity about it,

:16:59.:17:02.

but I don't think that will necessarily sway our thoughts of how

:17:03.:17:07.

we will vote on the European Union. When we voted to go into it, it was

:17:08.:17:12.

the common market. It was not the European Union. That is what we

:17:13.:17:17.

voted for. A common market of goods, not political interference and

:17:18.:17:25.

involvement, which it has become. Rochdale is a strongly Labour seat

:17:26.:17:28.

but in last year's election Ukip came second. The town has more

:17:29.:17:34.

asylum seekers per capita than almost anywhere else in the country.

:17:35.:17:39.

Many here have welcomed them. But there is also resentment, and not

:17:40.:17:47.

just from white Britons. This local Labour councillor is in favour of

:17:48.:17:51.

remaining in Europe but he knows the yes campaign cannot take votes from

:17:52.:17:54.

the sizeable Pakistani community in Rochdale for granted. British Asians

:17:55.:18:01.

have mixed views on it. A few people think we should take the refugees.

:18:02.:18:05.

On the other side there are a lot of issues within the Asian community.

:18:06.:18:10.

They think these refugees and asylum seekers are coming into this country

:18:11.:18:13.

and making a problem for them. People who think this is the burden

:18:14.:18:23.

coming into the economy and the people... We should leave the EU and

:18:24.:18:27.

that will resolve the problem. I do not think it will resolve the

:18:28.:18:33.

problem. We should educate them. His family have owned this

:18:34.:18:38.

cash-and-carry for 60 years. EU red tape is a bigger issue than refugees

:18:39.:18:42.

and migration for him. But he does have concerns about how many have

:18:43.:18:46.

been settled here. We're getting too many. It is a big burden on the

:18:47.:18:50.

taxpayer and British jobs and the economy. What is the solution to

:18:51.:18:59.

that? Is it leaving the EU? Leaving the EU will put us in isolation. I

:19:00.:19:05.

think it is best to stay within the EU, where David Cameron speech to

:19:06.:19:08.

the rest of the nations and get more power, and we trade with them on our

:19:09.:19:15.

terms, and our conditions. The refugee crisis may heighten debates

:19:16.:19:18.

about whether to remain in the EU. But it will not decide them.

:19:19.:19:21.

No, savour this graph because it is not often that you see

:19:22.:19:28.

one move so persuasively in the right direction.

:19:29.:19:30.

It goes back to 1969, and you can see that in the last

:19:31.:19:35.

15 years, the line has basically fallen dramatically.

:19:36.:19:39.

Well it is the rate of teenage pregnancies in England and Wales.

:19:40.:19:43.

The number per thousand women aged 15 to 17.

:19:44.:19:46.

The latest figure published this morning,

:19:47.:19:48.

Something has gone right, although we still have a higher rate

:19:49.:19:55.

of teenage pregnancy than similar countries in Western Europe.

:19:56.:19:59.

of the Teenage Pregnancy Knowledge Exchange, and led

:20:00.:20:05.

the Government strategy for tackling teenage pregnancy.

:20:06.:20:14.

Allison, what has driven the graph down? First of all, it is a

:20:15.:20:21.

fantastic celebration of the work of someone a people involved in the

:20:22.:20:26.

strategy over 15 years. It was the first comprehensive strategy a

:20:27.:20:31.

government had ever had in England, which involved education, health,

:20:32.:20:35.

charities as well. It was a 10-year strategy with the commitment to give

:20:36.:20:39.

young people choices. It was not a strategy which sat on the shelf. It

:20:40.:20:45.

was delivered to councils. It is basically giving them contraception.

:20:46.:20:50.

No. Choices around good sex education, so they could make

:20:51.:20:53.

choices about whether they had sex. If they do have sex, where they

:20:54.:20:58.

could go for contraception, making it easy to look after their sexual

:20:59.:21:04.

health. Basically, Tony Blair comes to power in 1997 and within a year

:21:05.:21:08.

and they announce this. You are effectively saying this is the

:21:09.:21:13.

delayed reaction to what they get? Yes, but with all complex issues it

:21:14.:21:17.

takes a long time to have an impact. The strategy for the first few years

:21:18.:21:22.

was bedding in. The rate was coming down very slowly. We did image

:21:23.:21:27.

strategy review in 2005 and we found that some areas were bringing their

:21:28.:21:30.

rates down really well. And others were not making an impact. We

:21:31.:21:37.

compared the two. The areas making the impact were delivering what they

:21:38.:21:40.

have to deliver. It was a light bulb moment. Some of those areas said

:21:41.:21:43.

there was nothing they could do about it. The counterpoint to the

:21:44.:21:51.

claim was the Tony Blair government, they have come down everywhere, even

:21:52.:21:58.

Denmark. That is already interesting point. European countries brought

:21:59.:22:01.

their rates down steadily since the 1970s and that carried on. In other

:22:02.:22:07.

in the speaking countries around the world, the graph does show a similar

:22:08.:22:10.

pattern but they have all been trying to do the similar -- similar

:22:11.:22:17.

things. It is an international programme about improving sex

:22:18.:22:20.

education, making contraception easier. The World Health

:22:21.:22:22.

Organisation are introducing that around the world. It is not one

:22:23.:22:27.

thing that is common to the technology has changed, how many

:22:28.:22:32.

young people are taking the morning after pill? The morning after pill,

:22:33.:22:37.

it is a bit of a misnomer, you can take it three to five days after

:22:38.:22:41.

unprotected sex, it is difficult to get the numbers. It is one part of

:22:42.:22:45.

the jigsaw. It is not the overall solution. It is a woody good

:22:46.:22:49.

stepping stone into more effective contraception, and of course it is a

:22:50.:22:53.

very good emergency measure. But that on its own will not have

:22:54.:22:56.

brought down rates. It is a jigsaw of different pieces. The debate over

:22:57.:23:01.

whether children under 16 should be able to get contraception without

:23:02.:23:05.

their parents knowing or consenting, that is happening? That was resolved

:23:06.:23:13.

in 1985 after a long legal case. Anyone under 16 can get confidential

:23:14.:23:18.

advice from a doctor or macro nurse. They are encouraged to talk to their

:23:19.:23:24.

parents. That is an effective thing. But if they can't are, it is better

:23:25.:23:27.

they can talk to a doctor or nurse for advice. Thank you.

:23:28.:23:28.

Mexico has a well known problem with drug gangs

:23:29.:23:31.

But it also has a less talked about problem with another kind

:23:32.:23:35.

It's reached a worrying level, and lest you think that it's only

:23:36.:23:40.

a concern for the families of rich industrialists, it no longer is.

:23:41.:23:43.

Vladamir Hernandez went to Mexico City for the Our World

:23:44.:23:49.

series, to investigate the cause and the consequence.

:23:50.:24:04.

This is the call every family in Mexico dreads receiving -

:24:05.:24:08.

Very few countries have such a high kidnap rate as Mexico.

:24:09.:24:17.

And it is a crime that is not only affecting the wealthy,

:24:18.:24:23.

but anyone in society walking down these streets -

:24:24.:24:25.

anyone - can be a quick fix of cash for the kidnappers.

:24:26.:24:28.

According to the authorities, 1500 people were kidnapped

:24:29.:24:33.

But the National Institute of Statistics estimates at least

:24:34.:24:38.

100,000 people are taken, and only a tiny fraction of cases

:24:39.:24:42.

One victim, Roberto, was working as a blacksmith fixing

:24:43.:24:50.

iron bars to a window in rural Mexico, when he was taken.

:24:51.:24:56.

There was a boy, about 14, he was just a kid.

:24:57.:25:02.

Another young guy, he had a pistol, a gun, and he pointed it at me.

:25:03.:25:08.

They kicked me in the face and the ribs.

:25:09.:25:16.

Roberto was released after a few hours, but the kidnappers then

:25:17.:25:21.

took his family, who were later freed by the police.

:25:22.:25:24.

His case is typical, according to private negotiator Max

:25:25.:25:26.

He says the police haven't done enough.

:25:27.:26:10.

The police say they are winning the battle against kidnappers.

:26:11.:26:18.

And they are keen to publicise the success of raids like this

:26:19.:26:21.

But this is just a small part of their role.

:26:22.:26:28.

They work with families behind closed doors to try

:26:29.:26:30.

and persuade the kidnappers to release their captives.

:26:31.:26:33.

Alejandro, not his real name, is a police negotiator who has

:26:34.:26:40.

agreed to play me recordings of a kidnapper made

:26:41.:26:42.

The man who was kidnapped is a bus driver.

:26:43.:27:00.

And when the kidnappers are ready to make a deal,

:27:01.:27:02.

The negotiator's team eventually managed to free the bus driver.

:27:03.:27:57.

But what is causing this wave of apparently random

:27:58.:28:00.

To find out, I have arranged to meet a man who claims he is a kidnapper.

:28:01.:28:11.

When I finally do meet him, I am surprised to find he does not

:28:12.:28:15.

There are lots of different ways of kidnapping someone.

:28:16.:28:21.

Generally I stare at the victim, let them see my eyes.

:28:22.:28:26.

They start crying and I say, "Calm down, bro, we are going to do

:28:27.:28:29.

I'm interested in the money, that's all."

:28:30.:28:37.

Do you ever think about the relatives of the victim

:28:38.:28:41.

But it is very rare we do something to someone who does not deserve it.

:28:42.:28:57.

I don't start fights, but if one happens I make

:28:58.:29:00.

I will stab you in the stomach, or bite your face, or just remove

:29:01.:29:04.

something from you, maybe cut your throat with a knife

:29:05.:29:07.

and mess with your windpipe a little bit.

:29:08.:29:12.

With drugs you have clients and it is continuous.

:29:13.:29:24.

You can make anything up to $2 million.

:29:25.:29:30.

So it is hard to give up.

:29:31.:29:38.

No, I don't have any regrets about the people I have killed.

:29:39.:29:44.

But the truth is I've already BLEEP my life,

:29:45.:29:46.

I can't verify what he said, but I am shaken by meeting him.

:29:47.:30:08.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone talk about death,

:30:09.:30:12.

torture, violence with such ease, with such coldness.

:30:13.:30:22.

It's frightening because he's just like an ordinary young man talking

:30:23.:30:27.

Knowing he was going to die soon, probably.

:30:28.:30:43.

The police reunite dozens of families with their

:30:44.:30:53.

Official police statistics show the number of kidnappings have

:30:54.:31:00.

But the scars from kidnapping take a long time to heal.

:31:01.:31:13.

Roberto, the blacksmith, has been traumatised by the attack.

:31:14.:31:17.

He still doesn't know why he was targeted.

:31:18.:31:22.

Do you think you will ever stop being afraid?

:31:23.:31:31.

Not while there are crimes like this.

:31:32.:31:35.

What makes me sad is that one of them was just a child.

:31:36.:31:42.

He could have been at school, preparing to be a good person.

:31:43.:31:45.

You can watch the Our World documentary Kidnapped In Mexico

:31:46.:32:00.

on Saturday and Sunday on the News Channel at 21:30.

:32:01.:32:06.

You can also follow the negotiation of a true kidnap story in real time

:32:07.:32:13.

We woke to the news this morning of the death of Sir George Martin,

:32:14.:32:19.

Paul McCartney called him a "second father", and he was the first

:32:20.:32:24.

music producer to blend a classical training with rock and roll

:32:25.:32:27.

We'll get a demonstration of what a difference he made

:32:28.:32:33.

to certain songs, but first Stephen Smith has this medley

:32:34.:32:36.

My main role would be telling them what to do with it.

:32:37.:32:45.

This needs to be two and a quarter minutes long.

:32:46.:32:49.

OK, we'll time the chorus, see how many choruses you need.

:32:50.:32:52.

They were all thinking in terms of singles.

:32:53.:32:54.

George Martin says have you got anything you would like to do.

:32:55.:32:57.

I said, we have a song called Please, Please Me.

:32:58.:32:59.

This is one that John had just written.

:33:00.:33:05.

Get this bloody little mic out of the way.

:33:06.:33:08.

# Last night I said these words to my girl

:33:09.:33:35.

# Come on, come on, come on, come on

:33:36.:33:40.

# Please, please me, like I please you.#.

:33:41.:33:47.

At the end of that session I was able to say, you have

:33:48.:33:50.

When I first met them none of them could play the piano very well

:33:51.:33:57.

In order to communicate with them, I found when

:33:58.:34:01.

I went over to the piano and said a chord and played it on the piano,

:34:02.:34:05.

bunch of notes and white keys, it wouldn't mean a thing to them.

:34:06.:34:10.

I thought, if I can play the chord on the guitar,

:34:11.:34:14.

they will see my fingers and the shapes

:34:15.:34:16.

At the same time they bought a piano and started to learn

:34:17.:34:25.

They overtook me and got to play the piano better

:34:26.:34:28.

# Baby's good to me you know she's happy as can be

:34:29.:34:32.

George had done little or no rock and roll when we met him and we had

:34:33.:34:38.

never been in the studio so we had a lot of learning to do.

:34:39.:34:41.

He had a very great musical knowledge and background.

:34:42.:34:43.

Amazing really how creative we could be in those circumstances.

:34:44.:35:25.

and you would just remind us about halfway through the three-hour

:35:26.:35:29.

period, well, there's just about enough on that one,

:35:30.:35:32.

And so you learned to be brilliant, he said, modestly, in 1.5 hours.

:35:33.:35:38.

They were finding new frontiers all the time.

:35:39.:35:40.

I guess their success gave them confidence to do things

:35:41.:35:43.

# Working is all very fine # But love can show you a better time.

:35:44.:35:53.

# Baby you can drive my car, # Yes I'm gonna to be a star # baby,

:35:54.:36:00.

# baby, you can drive my car, and baby, I love you...#.

:36:01.:36:08.

Their ideas now were becoming more potent in the studio

:36:09.:36:19.

and they would start telling me what they wanted

:36:20.:36:21.

and they would start pressing me for more ideas.

:36:22.:36:23.

He would come up with things like have you heard an oboe?

:36:24.:36:26.

If you think about it, George had to deal

:36:27.:36:36.

with all kinds of stuff with the Beatles.

:36:37.:36:39.

John Lennon coming to him saying he wanted to hear the sound

:36:40.:36:42.

I mean, how would you get the sound of

:36:43.:36:45.

He was the least dictatorial person you could ever

:36:46.:37:03.

come across in a recording studio and I think his methodology

:37:04.:37:06.

was to allow the artist explore everything that

:37:07.:37:08.

was possible to explore so we could all see that what we had

:37:09.:37:11.

I do live each day as if I went to see tomorrow,

:37:12.:37:18.

because that is the way to look at it.

:37:19.:37:20.

What the hell am I doing wasting time talking

:37:21.:37:22.

That compilation was curated by Steve Smith.

:37:23.:37:34.

Now to properly understand what George Martin did,

:37:35.:37:36.

how he took tunes and turned them into Beatles tracks,

:37:37.:37:38.

we need a demonstration, so I'm joined

:37:39.:37:40.

at the grand piano by Tom Donald, from

:37:41.:37:42.

the London Contemporary School of Piano,

:37:43.:37:44.

who's going to show us the inner workings of George Martin.

:37:45.:37:48.

I think a lot of us like me have never understood what the producer

:37:49.:37:55.

does or adds. Give us an example of what George Martin does to take a

:37:56.:38:05.

vanilla track and add to it? If you take a song like Eleanor Rigby, you

:38:06.:38:12.

would imagine the demo sounding like this, and he gets it and transcribes

:38:13.:38:21.

it for a string quartet. These sounds, you would expect to hear in

:38:22.:38:28.

Bach, not pop music. So it makes an enormous difference. You mentioned

:38:29.:38:32.

string quartets because his thing was his classical background and he

:38:33.:38:38.

blended with rock and roll. He blended it together. Not only older

:38:39.:38:44.

classical music by Bach, if you look at a day in the life, the last track

:38:45.:38:50.

from Sergeant Pepper, if you listen to the beginning of the track, it

:38:51.:38:55.

sounds like a standard Beatles song, until he brings in Stockhausen

:38:56.:39:03.

influence. That is an Avent guard German composer. Very uncommercial,

:39:04.:39:10.

you could say. It brings this element, it is almost impossible to

:39:11.:39:16.

do on a piano, but he brings it to an orchestral arrangement, it is

:39:17.:39:22.

quite remarkable how he brings those two polar opposites together. It is

:39:23.:39:26.

interesting listening to the archive, you think of the Beatles as

:39:27.:39:31.

being a rock 'n' roll band, but later they are not just rock 'n'

:39:32.:39:36.

roll. There is so much more to the Beatles than rock 'n' roll. That is

:39:37.:39:42.

down to George Martin. You get a song like the Long and Winding Road.

:39:43.:39:51.

Then he makes this orchestration that has horns in it, is grass

:39:52.:40:05.

oriented. -- brass. There are beautiful lush harmonies. There is

:40:06.:40:09.

something very British about it, it you could almost hear in Elgar, fawn

:40:10.:40:15.

Williams, Gustav Holst. It is not obvious but it is definitely there

:40:16.:40:21.

-- Ralph born Williams. He did bring other instruments in as well so it

:40:22.:40:28.

was orchestral? And an odd choice of instruments sometimes. You get a

:40:29.:40:35.

song like Fool On The Hill with a lovely melody. But he decides to

:40:36.:40:46.

bring in a base Karen at -- clarinet. Most people don't even

:40:47.:40:50.

know what a bass clarinet looks like. His accent of the clarinet on

:40:51.:40:57.

the first and third beat of the bar, which is buried not pop music. It is

:40:58.:41:06.

very classical. Most people clapped to pop songs on the second and

:41:07.:41:11.

fourth heat of the bar, it is like you are at panto clapping along to

:41:12.:41:15.

songs with the kids or something. Everything that you say, and what he

:41:16.:41:22.

was saying, you must say of the five, perhaps this is sacrilege,

:41:23.:41:27.

that he is the most musically accomplished? It is unimaginable

:41:28.:41:30.

what the Beatles would have sounded like without George Martin. Is he

:41:31.:41:36.

known in classical circles? Do you consider yourself a classical

:41:37.:41:41.

pianist? I have a strong classical background but I'm really fascinated

:41:42.:41:47.

by musicians who can cross the boundaries so effortlessly. What I

:41:48.:41:49.

have said today, almost sounds like it is ridiculous. The way he

:41:50.:41:53.

integrated it with their songs just worked so beautifully and it is part

:41:54.:41:58.

of that legend. Thank you so much for demonstrating. You are welcome.

:41:59.:42:03.

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