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They say the first job of the state, is to keep us secure. | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
Does the EU help, or does it just get in the way? | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
Welcome to this Newsnight referendum special, with a studio of undecided | :00:18. | :00:19. | |
and whether we'd get more or less of it, by leaving. | :00:20. | :00:29. | |
We'll look at the big picture of European defence. | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
What insiders will tell you is they are concerned | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
if the British voice was no longer at the table, at those European | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
summits and other meetings, the others would be more likely | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
As one Frenchman put it to me, "Without Britain, we are | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
And will our borders be more secure if we leave the EU? | :00:51. | :01:10. | |
Would we just lose vital intelligence without | :01:11. | :01:12. | |
The referendum campaign may have been dominated by the economy last | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
week, but thanks to Theresa May, national security has | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
The Home Secretary, a reluctant supporter of EU membership | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
made her first big intervention today, telling us why | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
she thinks we are more secure in the EU, than out. | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
Our response to Paris and Brussels cannot be to say we should have less | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
corporation with countries that are not only our allies but our nearest | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
neighbours. And anyway, leaving the EU would not mean we could just | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
close ourselves off to the world. The September the 11th attacks in | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
New York were planned in Afghanistan. The July the 7th | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
attackers trained in Pakistan. So my judgment as Home Secretary is that | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
remaining a member of the EU means we would be more secure from crime | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
and terrorism. But she also said some other pretty | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
interesting things - We'd do better to leave | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
the European Convention on Human Rights than | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
the EU, she said. And she also suggested | :02:20. | :02:21. | |
she didn't want more poor, corrupt countries to join the EU, | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
like Turkey and Albania. She didn't put it quite as brutally | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
as "poor and corrupt", She was counter to government | :02:27. | :02:28. | |
policy on those issues, but she's meant to be | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
supporting government policy. At heart though, we have a simple | :02:35. | :02:36. | |
question this evening - is the EU aiding our | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
security? We will delve into that - | :02:42. | :02:42. | |
with a panel of experts here. And to start, let's talk briefly | :02:43. | :02:56. | |
to one politician on Theresa Alan Johnson, former Labour home | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
secretary is supporting the Remain Penny Mordaunt is the armed forces | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
minister and is on the Leave side of the argument, | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
she has been held up at a parliamentary vote tonight | :03:07. | :03:08. | |
and will be joining us shortly. Theresa May was against the European | :03:09. | :03:19. | |
human rights Convention. But against the EU? As predecessor as Home | :03:20. | :03:27. | |
Secretary, she takes the same view as me that we are more secure in the | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
EU. She has just concluded a negotiation that began when I was | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
Home Secretary. Abdul Matt Taylor put into Detroit airport with | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
Semtex. And there was an issue about the names of passengers being | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
recorded across states. She has just concluded this passenger name record | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
in directive which is important because we can exchange that | :03:51. | :03:52. | |
information across all member states. She also got a couple of | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
things out of the Prime Minister negotiations which help with | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
security. It is strange that she is against government policy. What | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
about new members, are you in favour of new members of the EU, Turkey or | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
Albania? Many arguments about security are that we will have these | :04:15. | :04:24. | |
countries. Of course we have a veto, it has to be every country. Should | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
we use that veto? It depends, there is a big human rights issue in | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
Turkey and they cannot meet Article six of the European Union, | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
democracy, free speech and the rule of law. But if they pass that M I | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
think the general principle of spreading the principles of the EU, | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
the principles we believe in, are important. We did that to countries | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
under the totalitarian rule of the Soviet union. And those under | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
military rule and it has been good for those countries and good for | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
Europe. That would mean that the EU basically has a border with Syria. | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
It will be a long time before it becomes an issue and Britain has a | :05:09. | :05:09. | |
veto. And tonight we're also joined | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
by our panel of undecided voters, Perhaps you have made | :05:13. | :05:14. | |
up your minds by now? On security, any points any of you | :05:15. | :05:26. | |
are listening out for in the debate tonight? Looking basically for 1.1 | :05:27. | :05:36. | |
million, Syrian refugees, being taken in Germany. They will | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
eventually be getting a European passport and they are then free to | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
go all over Europe and the UK. That is no issue for me however, if there | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
are some elements of security and a certain number of people who are not | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
genuine asylum seekers and they have passed through, what kind of | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
controls do we have over that and how do we guard against terrorism? | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
Hold that thought. Any other worries or boards about security, how many | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
of you would say security is at their book the economy in terms of | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
how important your decision is best amok and how many of you would say | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
that security is more important than sovereignty? Security clearly | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
something of an issue. And lastly, quite a lot of this is going to be | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
about Nato and events. Which dashed defence. Which is more important, | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
the Nato aspect of security or street security, terrorism, how many | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
of you would say you are worried about armed forces and the defence | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
of the realm and all of that? And how many would say it is more about | :06:49. | :06:57. | |
terrorism and safety on the streets. OK, that is what I'm getting. How | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
strong will our borders continue to be whether we stay or leave? We will | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
come to all of that in the second half of the programme. | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
There is a live blog up and running, packed with extra thoughts | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
and facts, you can find it at bbc.co.uk/newsnight. | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
For as long as countries have existed, they've always known that | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
for their security they need to do deals and make alliances. | :07:23. | :07:24. | |
And right now, no-one is arguing for Britain to go | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
The Brexit debate is about how we precisely configure our | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
international alliances, and in particular whether the EU | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
is irrelevant to our main defence group, Nato. | :07:43. | :07:44. | |
Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban has been looking at how Brexit | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
would affect defence and other aspects of our security. | :07:49. | :08:02. | |
In Paris, they know Anglo-French relations have had their ups | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
But at the Jena Bridge, built by Napoleon to mark his defeat | :08:06. | :08:18. | |
of the Prussians, something happened when the tables were turned | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
A British general showed the way to a new relationship. | :08:23. | :08:35. | |
The Duke of Wellington discovered that his Prussian allies | :08:36. | :08:37. | |
were about to come down here and blow the bridge up. | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
They regarded it as a sign of their humiliation. | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
the Duke posted British soldiers at both ends of the bridge | :08:46. | :08:47. | |
to stop them doing it, and saved the bridge | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
And since the final fall of Napoleon, it has been the same | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
story time and again - of Britain backing the French up, | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
often against the Germans, in one international crisis | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
And that is why security and military people, | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
particularly in Paris, express their alarm | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
But if defence and security cooperation really takes place | :09:14. | :09:22. | |
in Nato or through bilateral ties, why should leaving the EU have any | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
The Brexit vote will be a lose-lose proposition. | :09:27. | :09:36. | |
There will be less Great Britain in the world, and as a result | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
of British departure, there will be less | :09:40. | :09:41. | |
Even if you are no longer what you used to be, exactly, | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
I mean, the two countries, France and Great Britain, | :09:49. | :10:01. | |
still claiming the title of being the Deputy Sheriff | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
We can't ask that from the Germans, the Italian, | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
These days, when French soldiers storm the south of England, | :10:09. | :10:17. | |
The current Griffin Strike exercises involve thousands | :10:18. | :10:25. | |
It is part of an extensive cooperation between the two | :10:26. | :10:34. | |
countries in Nato, the EU and bilaterally. | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
A British exit to me is opening the lid of Pandora's Box. | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
I don't think it is possible to argue that the rest of the union | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
They will be, but how, in what way, is a far | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
more difficult, far more difficult question to answer. | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
The upheaval would not be limited to the United Kingdom. | :11:01. | :11:12. | |
Or indeed arguably to continental Europe. | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
The ripples could go wider, it seems to me. | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
Among senior officers and intelligence bosses on both | :11:23. | :11:24. | |
sides of the channel, I have found that pro-Brexit views | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
are in the minority, but Rear Admiral Roger Lane-Noitt | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
I am very supportive of Nato, as you would expect, | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
The reality is I didn't see the EU was actually | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
doing its job properly, pulling its weight. | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
I suppose the final straw for me, really, was the fact that Juncker | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
decided he wanted a European army and a European navy. | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
When actually what they should be doing is putting | :12:02. | :12:03. | |
Of course, there is a more immediate challenge for Europe. | :12:04. | :12:17. | |
The spectre of further attacks by the Islamic State group. | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
Intelligence is critical to preventing that. | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
And there is a feeling here, too, that key relationships | :12:27. | :12:28. | |
The essence of intelligence cooperation is, at the end | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
of the day, what the respective parties are able | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
And the United Kingdom, I think, still will have significant equities | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
So that, at the end of the day, is probably going to be the key | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
thing, in terms of how this collaboration continues. | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
But when the France-Germany game came under attack | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
in Paris last November, Europe's intelligence | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
Much has been happening since to close gaps, | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
and opponents of Brexit argue Britain could lose out on that work. | :13:15. | :13:22. | |
What it does lose categorically is the automaticity of access | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
to the data sets that other European services have, so travel | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
information, credit card expenditure, mobile phone usage, | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
and if the United Kingdom was no longer part of the EU, | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
I assume it would have to renegotiate access | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
The recent French and Belgium attacks have also caused | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
the public to make a link between migration and terrorism. | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
The discovery, first, that one of the suicide bombers | :13:59. | :14:00. | |
here and then that other members of the Paris plot had come | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
into Europe through the Greek islands, pretending to be Syrian | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
refugees on fake passports, and work their way from country | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
to country across Europe caused the whole nature of | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
Many in Britain couldn't believe the security shortcomings that had | :14:15. | :14:23. | |
been shown up by the attacks, but in some other EU countries | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
they decided to take practical steps to change that state of affairs. | :14:28. | :14:37. | |
It was Austria in particular that showed a willingness | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
to push the envelope, in order to regain control | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
The Austrians took a series of steps. | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
Firstly, they put this fence on their border with Slovenia - | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
not the most physically robust of obstacles, | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
but very politically significant because it cut two Shengen states, | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
where there is supposed to be free movement of people, from each other. | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
Then they put a ceiling on the number of asylum seekers | :15:09. | :15:10. | |
they would accept in Austria this year, that ran counter | :15:11. | :15:12. | |
to EU and German policy, and then they started organising | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
the Balkan countries down the refugee stream, | :15:16. | :15:16. | |
to take their own concerted action to stop the flow | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
The desire to take control, whatever the European Commission said, | :15:22. | :15:33. | |
was not accompanied in Vienna by any move to leave the EU. | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
Austria's display of independent mindedness extended to marshalling | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
its neighbours, some in the EU, some not, | :15:46. | :15:47. | |
to stop hundreds of thousands moving across their country. | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
You know, we still urge for a European solution. | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
And of course, a European solution is always the better solution. | :15:58. | :16:11. | |
But there was, at the beginning of this year, a situation | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
where we thought we cannot wait any longer. | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
Do you have an idea how many asylum seekers are entering the country, | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
since the Greek border was closed in Macedonia? | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
We had 800, 900 asylum seekers in one day. | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
So what is happening on Austria's border with Slovenia? | :16:38. | :16:52. | |
At the peak of the migration crisis, 4,000 people a day were passing | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
It was one of the principle hotspots. | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
But workers here told us that since early March, | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
when Macedonia closed its border with Greece as part of that plan | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
co-ordinated by Austria, nobody has arrived here. | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
Now, they are starting to dismantle the transit camp. | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
The transformation is quite remarkable. | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
And you could argue that the migration crisis shows how | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
incapable the EU is, and therefore provides another | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
The actions of a country like Austria in driving a coach | :17:31. | :17:38. | |
and horses through the EU's asylum rules and the Shengen agreement have | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
displayed that it can act energetically in its national | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
interest, and not even think about leaving the EU. | :17:49. | :18:00. | |
If there are now grounds for hope that Europe can get on top | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
of the migrant crisis, there are still bigger | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
And reminders about how past crises were solved. | :18:11. | :18:19. | |
In a corner of Vienna there is a little relic | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
of the Soviet Union most people have long forgotten. | :18:23. | :18:24. | |
This war memorial reminds us that for ten years after the war, | :18:25. | :18:32. | |
Austria, like Germany, was a divided country, | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
but the Soviet army left here in return for a treaty signed | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
by the great powers guaranteeing that Austria would not join Nato, | :18:40. | :18:41. | |
The Russian foreign minister has flown in to meet his | :18:42. | :18:54. | |
western opposite number at the Belvedere Palace and sign | :18:55. | :18:56. | |
By December 31st, all four countries' occupation forces | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
There can be no doubt in Austrian minds this is a step | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
Today, as in the 1950s, the Kremlin is very keen to stop | :19:05. | :19:14. | |
certain countries joining Nato, or even the western family | :19:15. | :19:16. | |
And of course, it is the smallest states or the weaker ones that find | :19:17. | :19:26. | |
that type of pressure hardest to resist. | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
Would Europe be more tempted to adapt an appeasement | :19:29. | :19:36. | |
Would Europe be more tempted to adopt an appeasement | :19:37. | :19:38. | |
policy towards Moscow, without Great Britain? | :19:39. | :19:40. | |
At least, that is probably the thinking of Vladimir Putin | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
in Moscow, when you see that he wants very much, in a way, | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
Great Britain to leave the European Union. | :19:51. | :20:01. | |
But for those who favour Brexit, that is not a decisive argument. | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
I am not sure Putin would be too worried about it. | :20:05. | :20:13. | |
He would smile, and I think he would look at what is going on, | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
but he may be worried that actually this could force the UK to be even | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
But the UK not being part of the European Union, | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
doesn't make much difference to whatever his plans may be. | :20:25. | :20:31. | |
While Britain works out its exit terms, if that is what happen, | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
The terror threat will remain high in Europe, and Russia assertive. | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
Britain's allies would rather not be dealing with Brexit as well. | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
So why has President Obama gone out of his way to make it clear | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
that he does not wish Britain to leave the European Union? | :20:48. | :20:54. | |
Well, it is because Washington is of the belief, and I believe | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
they are right, that they can influence and guide European | :21:01. | :21:02. | |
security better with their old ally in the union, rather than out of it. | :21:03. | :21:15. | |
If Nato remains the cornerstone of western security, | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
why are Britain's closest friends the US and France, so worried | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
Well, what insiders will tell you is they're concerned that | :21:23. | :21:30. | |
if the British voice was no longer at the table at those European | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
summits and other meetings, the others would be more likely | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
As one Frenchman put it to me, "Without Britain, | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
Being useful to America, or for that matter France | :21:44. | :21:54. | |
or Germany, might seem a bit craven to many Britains, | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
but that, after all, is the basis of alliances, | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
At the University of Paris Dauphine, there is a reminder those factors | :22:04. | :22:16. | |
This utterly unremarkable building was, until 1966, | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
But the whole lot had to go when General de | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
You might argue the whole saga of General de Gaulle and Nato shows | :22:27. | :22:34. | |
you can have huge ructions within an international | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
organisation, throw it out even, and in the end people get | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
Having done what they did in the 60s, the French spent decades | :22:44. | :22:58. | |
regretting it, and in fact the best part of 20 years wheedling their way | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
back in to the military structure of the western alliance. | :23:03. | :23:09. | |
The unknowable, from Paris to Washington, is whether those ties | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
of mutual interest would be sufficiently strong for those allies | :23:18. | :23:19. | |
to make light of the headaches that might well follow Brexit. | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
Food for thought from Mark Urban there. | :23:27. | :23:28. | |
Austrian and French food in particular. | :23:29. | :23:30. | |
You can see that in the Brexit debate over foreign policy | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
and security, there is a parallel to the discussion we | :23:34. | :23:35. | |
The central question is, if we leave the EU, do we lose | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
a good relationship we have, and do we gain a better relationship | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
with the rest of the world in its place? | :23:45. | :23:46. | |
On the economy, the idea we'd have new trade relationships | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
In security, the argument is around Nato and a better | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
For this few minutes, let's stick on the subject of Nato | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
We'll come to crime and terror later. | :23:59. | :24:07. | |
Penny, Armed Forces minute stir has joined us now. Thank you for | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
hot-footing it from the Commons. Theresa May, she is a voice, often | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
trusted on security, I think, what was your reaction to her coming out, | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
so clearly on the security issue, in favour of remaining? Her position is | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
very difficult, if you look at who is on the Brexit side, it is Armed | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
Forces ministers the Security Minister, the human rights | :24:32. | :24:33. | |
minister... Not the defence minister. Not the Security Minister. | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
No, the Security Minister is... The Home Secretary. It is those people | :24:38. | :24:44. | |
who don't have those political relationship, and would be causing | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
embarrassment to support the Brexit campaigner, the people who are | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
concerned with the operational responsibility of keeping the UK | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
safe. Theresa May is concerned with that, isn't she. She S who knows | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
where she will be by the end of week. I think it is incredibly | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
concerning, we are facing an aggressive Russia with, facing these | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
increasing terrorist threat, and this is what we should be focussing | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
on t practical thing, not bureaucracy, not setting up new | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
committees or agency, the practical things. Let us talk about that. I | :25:18. | :25:24. | |
wonder what your explanation is that senior Nato people who are not | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
involved in the EU, the Secretary-General, a strong UK in | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
Europe is good for our security, good for Nato, a fragmented Europe | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
is bad for security, bad for Nato. Why do people like him say things | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
like that. They know the way the world work, I know you have Diss | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
missed Obama's comment, he doesn't explain Europe. But the | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
Secretary-General does. There is much we agree on but I would say the | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
trajectory we are on, and if you look at the state of the EU at the | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
moment, we have weak and fragmented states, the film you have shown, | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
shows the rising distrust there is between member state, people are | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
having to break EU rules, to try and keep their population safe, and what | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
ultimately, I know we are coming on the terrorism, what ultimately will | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
keep us safe from Russian aggression is if we have strong prosperous | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
member states who are able to invest in their defence, and security | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
apparatus, and that is what will keep Russia at bay. So we don't have | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
that, we have a growing problem with forced harmonisation. Will all those | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
thing, I mean I don't want to get back on to the economic debate, but | :26:40. | :26:46. | |
will all those things make Europe better attacking Russia? Do you | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
think Brexit will make Europe better attacking Russia? Why does the | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
Secretary-General think not, that Brexit would make it worse. I could | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
quote Ben Hodge, he thinks it, Europe will unravel, it will be a | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
knock on effect, he is worried by that. We have worked very hard to | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
secure reform, in Europe, and we have failed. Our list, when we went | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
into the renegotiations has failed and we have weakened our position, | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
because the Prime Minister has given up our veto, so we are in a weaker | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
position now, I think that a vote to leave will do two things, by the UK, | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
taking back control of its law, its border, and its finances we will be | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
Sayer, we will have the powers we'd toe keep our country safe, but it | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
will also be a catalyst to reform in Europe. You could see at the end of | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
those negotiations, other European countries saying actually, thinking | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
about it we would like some reform. I wonder, is this going to be bad | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
for President Putin, or good for him. I think the trajectory we are | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
on is good news for those that wish us harmful we have distrust, | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
increasing between member state, we have a situation where we are having | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
a growing migrant crisis, and all the threats that come with that, | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
what the EU is, is the authority without any responsibility | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
whatsoever. We have to get, whether it is the economy or whether it is | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
national security, us to focus back on what member states need, to keep | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
their citizens safe. In this time of austerity, if we are doing anything | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
else, it is a waist of resource and energy, that is what we need to | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
focus on and it is the operational cooperation, the interopera bill we | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
need to focus on. Let me pick up that point, Alan Johnson, no-one, is | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
mainstream argument is not suggesting we leave Nato at this | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
point. Nato provides the security, and so why is it going to make a big | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
difference, on security, on defence, if we leave? The reason the | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
Secretary-General of Nato don't want us to leave, the Prime Minister and | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
the Home Secretary, is because the EU complements what Nato is doing. | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
It is important, it is one of the two big organisations set up after | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
the war, three if you count the United Nations to stop war happening | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
again. What Nato couldn't do, is to do what Cathy Ashton and the | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
European Union did with Iran, and to seek to negotiate, to start those | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
negotiations that reduce their nuclear capability. Successfully in | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
the end. What they couldn't do is convince the rest of the European | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
Union to introduce sanction against Russia because of what was happening | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
in Ukraine, but Nato was very keen for that but they know doesn't have | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
the power, it is about external defence, the two work together. I | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
didn't hear a single argument from Penny, I understand the arguments | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
because I hear them all the time about why we should leave because it | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
better for the economy. I didn't hear how it is better for our | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
defence, the crucial argument that was made in that film, was not just | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
for Britain, for our security, and for our defence but what we do to | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
our neighbours and our continent in walking away. We have the biggest | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
defence budget. Our expertise is better than other countries as well. | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
And you know, going off into isolation and saying you get on with | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
it now, doesn't seem to me to be the way to -- forward. | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
We're not walking away from Europe. We are focused on building | :30:29. | :30:36. | |
capability in Europe. That is not what this is about, it is about the | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
nitty-gritty operational ability to keep us safe. Just one example of | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
the difference between mission and EU mission, currently we have a good | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
EU mission in East Africa, billions have been put into it and because | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
one member state once that money to be spent elsewhere, they have the | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
power to veto that. All the investment, billions of pounds that | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
have gone into that, will be wasted if that happens and currently we are | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
looking at someone from outside the EU putting money into that mission. | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
So it is not an alliance like Nato. How does that help Nato for the UK | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
to walk away from the EU, that is what I cannot understand. How does | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
it improve our defence for the UK to leave the EU. Those networks, the | :31:28. | :31:38. | |
Secretary General of Nato says it former heads of the armed forces say | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
that, how would it help us to walk away? I would argue briefly that we | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
would stop some duplication that goes on in missions. The EU defence | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
structures, we would lose nothing by walking away from that, there are | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
open to Nato and non-EU member states. The thing that we would gain | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
is we would be able to take back control of our own borders. That is | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
vital. We will come to that. We're also joined tonight | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
by a panel of experts. On the Leave side, Richard Walton, | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
who was Counter Terrorism Commander for the Metropolitan | :32:17. | :32:18. | |
Police until January. a commander of some British | :32:19. | :32:20. | |
forces in Afghanistan. And for Remain, former director | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
of Liberty Shami Chakrabarti. And Rob Wainwright who is director | :32:24. | :32:25. | |
of Europol, the law enforcement Sticking to the bigger defence | :32:26. | :32:37. | |
picture, Richard Kemp, let me bring you in on entering the point of Alan | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
Johnson, how do you help Nato by coming out of the EU. You put a huge | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
weight Nato as the strategic alliance. There is no question in my | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
mind having been in the British Army and involved not just on the ground | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
but at higher levels throughout the Cabinet Office, the reality is that | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
if we left the EU we would undermine the EU ultimate plan forming an EU | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
army and that is what they're going to be doing. Too many of these | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
generals, they're looking at fighting in the last war which is | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
what generals often do. We need to look forward. The EU intends to have | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
a EU army. The Prime Minister will disagree with that, many will | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
disagree. There has been some chat about it. Jean-Claude Juncker has | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
spoken of an army and navy. That would undermine Nato because it | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
takes away resources from later. Already Barack Obama told us to go | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
to the back of the queue and he was also today attacking the EU for not | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
putting enough money into defence and he is right. We have a veto and | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
we would clearly be able to veto being involved in an EU army. Having | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
a referendum because the EU has gone far than people in the UK ever | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
expected. And how much further would it go in the future. The EU project | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
is about building a superstate and no doubt we would get drawn into | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
that. If the Alan Johnson party comes into power would a beta of | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
these things! It was a close run thing whether we went into the | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
Europe and we could get sucked into something like that. This is not an | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
argument that we would improve our defence by leaving Europe as I | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
understand it, it is a fantasy argument about something that might | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
happen in the future, that we leave Europe now because something might | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
happen in the future that we have a veto over. Penny, is that something | :34:40. | :34:48. | |
that worries you, a European army? It worries me because I think all | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
member states need to focus on the things that have a practical a | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
tangible benefit. If we had an EU army it would not do any war | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
fighting. The notion that it could be deployed, or indeed an | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
intelligence agency, that will not lead to greater intelligence | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
sharing. To finish the section on defence, would be easier for us to | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
persuade them not to have an army if we are in or out, one thought would | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
be they're much more likely to have an army if the UK is in it. Friends | :35:23. | :35:33. | |
aside, the UK is the only country to have serious military power and the | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
will to yield it. -- wielded. We are having these conversations now when | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
we're it. We tried reform in we've got to do do something that would be | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
it a catalyst to reform. I do not want them to be doing things that | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
would not make them safer. Security is not just about defence, | :35:55. | :35:56. | |
geo-political positioning, and facing up to President Putin, | :35:57. | :35:58. | |
or failing to. It's also about security | :35:59. | :36:00. | |
on our own streets, That has been obvious | :36:01. | :36:02. | |
since the Paris and Brussels attacks So let's focus on that for the next | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
section of the programme. Again, you're weighing up potential | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
losses and gains. If we leave, do we stand to lose | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
much, in cooperation Do we stand to gain more border | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
security and freedom to do We'll ask our guests, | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
but security means being armed, so let's arm ourselves | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
with some facts. Thanks to the channel and North Sea | :36:26. | :36:40. | |
the UK still has a well-defined border with the continent. We are | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
not in the borderless Schengen zone so we check travel documents of | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
people coming in and of course there are any way security checks on | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
planes, the Eurostar and cars using the tunnel. One important exception, | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
the UK has an open border with the Republic of Ireland. Anyone who gets | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
to Dublin can drive to Belfast and fly to the UK. It is not clear what | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
border arrangements would apply here if we left the EU. A key concession | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
is that EU citizens can turn up and get into the UK with just a valid | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
travel documents. We can refuse entry only if an individual | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
constitutes a genuine present and sufficiently serious threat | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
affecting one of the fundamental interests of society. Obviously you | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
would have to know that someone is such a threat. We cannot refuse | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
entry simply on the grounds that someone has a criminal conviction. | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
We can deport EU citizens but not easily. And again only in serious | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
cases relating to public policy, security or health. Away from the | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
border, the UK course rates with EU on security. Here is a phrase book | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
of key terms. There's the Schengen | :37:50. | :37:50. | |
Information System. A pan-European database covering | :37:51. | :37:52. | |
anything from missing people, to those involved in serious crimes, | :37:53. | :37:54. | |
and those who should There are more than 46 million | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
entries and last year, Britain made a quarter of a million | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
enquiries on that database. There's the European Arrest Warrant, | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
introduced in 2004. It expedites extraditions | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
within the EU and stops The European DNA database holds | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
police DNA, fingerprints and vehicle 5 million records | :38:18. | :38:28. | |
held across Europe. The UK stands aside from this. But | :38:29. | :38:37. | |
then there are areas where the EU has failed to meet hopes for more | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
information sharing. Most notably, plans to collect | :38:42. | :38:42. | |
Passenger Name Records, or PNRs. The idea is to oblige airlines | :38:43. | :38:44. | |
to hand over passenger data. It has been debated since 2011 | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
and has still not been implemented. A little guide into some security | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
practicalities there. Richard Walton, you ran counter | :38:56. | :39:08. | |
terrorism until earlier this year at Scotland Yard. How valuable and how | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
much would you regret the loss of intelligence sharing that you were | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
getting from other authorities in the EU? We face a global terrorist | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
threat, not regional, and as the Home Secretary said today, she said | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
passing across her desk were more cases relating to international | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
terrorism outside EU borders went in. It is not a probably face but a | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
global terrorist threat. And we need a global response and not a regional | :39:38. | :39:45. | |
one. The database managed by the EU, I would say they are marginal, of | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
marginal benefit and do not handle secret intelligence. Secret | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
intelligence relating to terrorism is passed from country to country by | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
naturally according to a different set of rules. It is of some benefit, | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
the Schengen information system, the passenger database mentioned is | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
useful and European Arrest Warrant is useful but marginal. I would also | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
say that you do not need to be in the EU to use those databases. | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
Iceland and Norway both use them. Neither of them are in the EU. | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
They're both in the Schengen incidentally, so they share | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
information that way. Europol have a number of operational agreements | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
with a lot of different countries outside the EU, Columbia, Australia, | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
the United States. So it is not worth that much but we would get it | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
anyway. And for information sharing, there's a balance of payments | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
surplus, we give more than we get in general? We have the finest | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
intelligence agencies probably outside of America anywhere in the | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
world. Our counterterrorism infrastructure is envied across the | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
world. There is no way the EU would ever want to preclude our data, | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
whether secret data or non-secret, from either Schengen information | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
database or bilateral. We will carry on, if we let the EU we would carry | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
on regardless. It would make no difference whatsoever in terms of | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
information sharing. We do that across the EU but also with Turkey, | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
with Afghanistan, wherever the threat might be. Rob Wainwright from | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
Europol, what is wrong with that argument, it sounds quite natural. | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
In Europol we operate many of these martial databases Richard spoke | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
about and they are anything but. The Schengen information system is the | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
largest security database in Europe, over 60 million entries. At Europol | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
we are connecting over 600 law enforcement agencies, bulk data | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
processing systems working alongside intelligence services and | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
arrangements with the Americans. This is not having to choose between | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
America or Europe, or even between different forms of cooperation | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
within Europe. It is a complex terrorist threat we face, we need to | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
have the maximum range of cooperation tools. At the moment the | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
EU is building significant and unique instruments for data sharing | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
across Europe. You saw them on the film, I will give you more examples | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
now. But we would be in them anyway, they would not kick as out of any. | :42:27. | :42:37. | |
But how do you know. There is no country currently has access to that | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
database that is both outside the EU and outside the Schengen area. We | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
would be that country. We would have to make a historical precedents | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
therefore negotiation access to that database. So no direct access. And I | :42:51. | :42:59. | |
could go on. Of course the UK wouldn't negotiate it is partial | :43:00. | :43:01. | |
access to be some arrangements but it would not be as effective as it | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
is now and meanwhile the rest of Europe is institutionalising the | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
sharing of data through EU systems. Interpol has been existence since | :43:13. | :43:22. | |
1956, Europol for 20 years. Interpol shares data and information across | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
190 states. The last major terrorist attack we had affecting UK citizens | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
was 30 British nationals killed on a beach in Tunisia. Tunisia is not | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
part of the EU. You have duplicated what was already in existence with | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
Interpol. What we needed to do was invested Interpol and not create | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
another set of information databases and we had no idea whether they use | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
the same search regimes. We have not done that and the rest of Europe has | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
not and so far they have institutionalised their work through | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
the EU including building up Europol in a way that operates in a | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
different way to Interpol. Richard mentioned the attack in Tunisia but | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
do not forget more recently right on our doorstep in Paris and Brussels, | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
carried out by European people operating on European soil. Who | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
entered from Syria, outside the EU. But information about who they are, | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
where they came from, are they speaking with anyone in the UK, it | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
can be held in the hands of European services who are sharing that data | :44:26. | :44:28. | |
through bilateral channels and more and more to use systems as well. | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
Interpol does not play a role in that. You made a case that we would | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
not be worse off because those databases are not important and we | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
would use them anyway but can you make the case that we would be | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
better off in terms of information leaving the EU? I'm not making that | :44:45. | :44:51. | |
case. I'm saying on that issue, let me just address one issue, Europol | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
has been exaggerating its responsibilities and operational | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
capabilities. It is important that the public understand it is not a | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
law enforcement agency. It has presented itself recently as a law | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
enforcement agency and it is not. It is not important counterterrorism it | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
has never made an arrest, the public must understand what Europol is and | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
what it is not. It is a platform connecting 600 law enforcement | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
agencies through the sharing of thousands of messages every day | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
allowing national authorities to make those arrests. If we have | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
someone coming in here flagged on that database, that is not enough | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
for us to exclude them from coming to this country. How often is this | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
occurring, that someone is flagged and we let them in. We have to have | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
different thresholds from people coming from the EU than outside the | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
EU. It happens frequently. We have to have really a cast-iron case | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
against an individual. A few a year or a few a day rest at thousands a | :46:00. | :46:08. | |
year. 25,000 people last year. It is a myth to say we do not control or | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
borders. Theresa May to have credit strengthened... We're just heard | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
people must be let in. The thresholds have changed, Theresa May | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
negotiated at tightening up of that. This is in recent negotiations. And | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
they have no legal weight. It is an international agreement. The issue | :46:32. | :46:42. | |
is about... We can stop people. Everyone has to show their passport. | :46:43. | :46:49. | |
And everyone is checked and if people are not, if they have | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
criminal records, they are engaged in terrorism, we turn them away. | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
What is the current state of play, if it but there are thousands of | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
people who are on watchlist is who we let in, who we would not want to | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
let in but have two because we are in the EU? That is not the case. | :47:09. | :47:17. | |
5,000 foreign fighter who are currently tying in crack, who no | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
doubt will be returning some time soon, when the war ends there, back | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
in to Europe, from the states they were, will they be allowed to... | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
This is about the quality of information. We are not in Schengen. | :47:32. | :47:38. | |
That would be ample grounds... We We have them on list, we look at the | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
passport and we can say no. , So Penny is wrong. That is not correct. | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
It is not enough that someone has a criminal record. That could be minor | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
shoplifting, he is talking about terrorism. And including links to | :47:55. | :48:01. | |
terrorist organisation, that is not enough to exclude them. The other... | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
Links to terrorist organisation, is your understanding someone with | :48:08. | :48:09. | |
those links we can stop them coming in. Without question. From the EU. | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
So there is a factual difference, we won't sort it out here. But... The | :48:16. | :48:23. | |
database may or may not The issue is the quality of information. I want | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
to bring Shami in. We have been talking more security is better more | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
intelligence is better, in your many years at Lynnty -- Liberty, no | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
longer there, you were concerned about some of these things and some | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
of the European projects like the European Arrest Warrant, which is a | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
pretty quick expedited process for getting someone into court in a | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
different country. If we leave, do we get more civil liberties, are you | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
happier door we get fewer? I don't think we get, I don't think we get | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
more, I think this is a shrinking interconnected world. We can't run | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
away from that, globalisation is a reality not a choice. I want that | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
globalisation not to just be about organised criminals and terrorist, | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
and massive cop rat, I want that globalisation to be a sharing of | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
human rights values. I have at times been critical of certain measures | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
taken by you, but that is a very important point. I have been | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
critical of certain measures taking by UK Governments and European | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
institutions too, I want there to be cooperation on security, I just want | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
it to also be subject to appropriate safeguards, checks and balances. I | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
want to use you as an expert witness on deportation, one of the things | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
that is said it is harder to deport someone who is an EU citizen. Will | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
is a hiring standard of damage to get them out than we would need for | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
other country, if we leave, will it be easier for us to deport people? I | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
think that when we are talking about security, we are talking about, not | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
petty criminal, we are talking about threats to national security, you | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
are well able to deport people even within the EU, there is no doubt | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
about that. When people form family ties in the UK, over a long period | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
of time, they become more difficult to deport, whether it is to the EU | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
or anywhere else, and that is rightly, because human heights -- | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
rights law respects the right of children to be with their parents. | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
Is that the, European convention of human rights which is not do do | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
with... On deportation, when people express concern, about refugees, and | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
of course we call them migrants and everything other than their true | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
name which is ref gee, I would remind people another part of | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
Churchill's important post-war settlement and legacy is the refugee | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
convention, we are bound to give people refugee protection under the | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
refugee convention, I don't believe even Brexit people say they want to | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
tear that up. Up. It is the Dublin arrangements within the EU that | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
allow Britain to send even some genuine refugees back to another | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
member state, if they came to that state first. Penny, do you buy what | :51:13. | :51:19. | |
you have heard. 252... Do you want to leave the European convention on | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
human rights as well as the EU? Think one of the issues about that | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
convention that particularly concerns me, is the effect it has on | :51:27. | :51:34. | |
our operations in defence. So, and I am sure Colonel Kemp with back me up | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
on this. I will give you one example. When we were in | :51:39. | :51:46. | |
Afghanistan, we arrested in a fire fight, we took prisoner someone from | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
the Taliban who was making IEDs on an industrial scale. We held him for | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
more than 96 howevers for his own protection, so that we could -- | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
hours so we could ensure when he was handed oh he wouldn't face torture, | :52:02. | :52:08. | |
he is now suing us, successfully for breaching his human rights. You, it | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
sound like you do, you can't pick and choose, can you. There are grave | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
difficultties with what that means for us, because it is undermining | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
international humanitarian law, things like the Geneva Conventions | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
which do sensible things that allow us to take prisoners. Do you think | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
most on your side, your party share your view that these two, the EU and | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
the European convention of human rights you might as well come out of | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
both, if you are doing the buy one get one free? Very learn people have | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
said you, the only way to do that, is to leave the EU. I am not a | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
lawyer. You want to tear up the human rights convention, that other | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
part of Churchill's settlement? I think there have been unintended | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
consequence, no-one set out to cause come casings but for me, if we are | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
sending our Armed Forces into battle, and they are not able to | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
take prisoners an they face being sued for doing their job, I think... | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
What about the grieving families who lost their children at deep cut. | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
They wouldn't have had an inquest that is happening. That is not the | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
case. It is. As a matter of law it is the case. I don't want to go too | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
deeply into that, Alan Johnson, do you think we end up coming out of | :53:31. | :53:37. | |
the human rights convention? In case viewers might be confused, the | :53:38. | :53:39. | |
European Court of Human Rights is nothing to do with the European | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
Union, OK? It is, Theresa May was making this point today. It is the | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
European Court of justice which is different. I don't agree with | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
pulling out the European Court of human right, the convention was | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
written by British civil servant, after the war, to stop that terrible | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
including the Holocaust happening again, it very important, as a | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
message to the rest of the world. But it is a completely separate | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
argument. It, people are going to link them. It is separate. If you | :54:09. | :54:15. | |
are going to, if you are going to leave the convention, arguably you | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
have got to leave the EU. You have to be in both. People do say that | :54:20. | :54:26. | |
condition of being in the EU... The problem is... Why don't we leave | :54:27. | :54:33. | |
Nato? I want to tairt up because it places the rights of terrorists | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
above the rights of British citizens. I have allowed far too | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
much discussion, I want to ask Penny a few last questions about borders | :54:43. | :54:51. | |
specifically. And Penny, Dominic Rab subjected we would have visas | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
between continent of Europe and the UK, if you didn't have visas, would | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
you get more security at the border than we have now? I think what, what | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
you need to do is to take back control to be able to make decision, | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
currently, you can't do that, there are all sorts of arrangements. You | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
want to have the option, I want to be clear, we check everybody as they | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
come in, we can't exclude them for small thing, we can only exclude | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
them for big thing, what difference is that border going to make if you | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
don't have a proper border with visas where you check people, they | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
go to the Embassy and they are interviewed. There are all sorts of | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
arrangements you could have. Visa free but some sort of light visas | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
like we do with the United States, the key thing is, that you can make, | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
with what intelligence you have, a decision about whether to keep | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
someone out, or let them in. That is what we don't have. We don't have | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
full control. I understand. What do you do about the board tweern the | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, because the republic is not | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
going to put visa restrictions to France, to it is going to let people | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
in from Paris, they are going to drive across the border to Belfast, | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
they can get on a plane, fly to Britain, what, what is your solution | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
for that border? Well, the, prior your to the EU coming into being, | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
there are arrangements between northern and southern Ireland. But | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
that is... What arrangements are you proposing? Those could be negotiated | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
between us. I can't even, I am struggling to imagine what it is, | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
other than a border. A military border is this There are a raft of | :56:37. | :56:43. | |
things that you... One example. Police check, the presumption at the | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
moment if you have a European passport you are waved through. What | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
we are arguing for is to have the, is the turn the presumption round | :56:53. | :56:55. | |
the other way, so it is, yes you can come in, but we will make sure that | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
you are not a criminal, you haven't got terrorist traces. So a | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
checkpoint between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. I used | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
to stand at Terminal 1 and we used to check passengers as they came | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
through. It was a border control. You know, from... From Belfast to | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
Great Britain, or from... Both. Every other British border has a | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
checkpoint. Have you sounded people in Northern Ireland on that? I am | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
saying borders are not necessarily a bad thing, we have seen 2 hundred | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
people killed in in terrorist attacks in two years because of... | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
Last comment. The irony is the information we need, to identify a | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
sex offender or drug traffickers at the moment is in the Schengen | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
information system It is not. I don't know when the last time you | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
stood at ard bore control point. That is what we are using to | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
identify them. -- a border control. Our borders will be less safe. I | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
want to, we are just about out of time ago eventually. We have had | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
some clear factual differences which people will go away, check out and | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
will report back on. I want to ask our audience. Have you heard | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
anything that has swayeddown way or the other, more -- swayed you one | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
way or the other. It is mainly -- made me realise security isn't a for | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
or against leaving the EU argument, because it sounds like we will be | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
just as secure if believe, so why is it, why, we believe. Why, if we are | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
going to share information if we leave the EU, we the EU isn't a | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
mechanism. I won't make so much difference. I am not hearing that at | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
all. I am not hearing anything concrete to get of. I am hearing | :58:47. | :58:52. | |
abstract idea, nothing concrete I can get hold of. Because I haven't | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
got to the bottom of the detail, there appear to be devils in detail, | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
then I am risk-averse, I would rather not change things, if I don't | :59:02. | :59:07. | |
have a cast iron guarantee, that things are going to function, I | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
haven't heard. It is non-scientific. How many of you listening to the | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
debate tonight have thought, what I have heard would steer me a little | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
more or more towards leaving the EU? How many would say the debate has | :59:22. | :59:27. | |
steered you towards leaving? And how many are saying it steered me more | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
towards staying? Really. Goodness. That is interesting. Penny you have | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
a bit of persuading to do. I remember from the first debate, one | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
of the comments you made was that you felt you wanted to be something, | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
a part of something bigger, part of something all together, I think one | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
of the most offensive arguments that has been put forward, from the | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
re-main camp is that somehow if we left the EU, that France, or Germany | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
or any other member state would not share information, would not | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
co-operate with us, they would put their own citizens and ours in | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
harm's way, to out of spite, and I think that is not the case, you only | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
have to look at the out pouring of solidarity that happened after the | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
London bombings or the recent events in Paris to know that that is not | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
the case at all. The argument that hasn't been discuss tonight, is why | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
we would be safer, if we came out. Currently, judgments that are made | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
in the European Court are putting in jeopardy our only intelligence | :00:34. | :00:35. | |
agencies is. Which one? The European Court. It is part of the free | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
movement. Which decision. Part of the free movement rules and it is | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
what it is saying is that we cannot share our information, we cannot... | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
Which decision? You haven't reached agreement. What it is doing is | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
undermine ourable to share information with the US. -- our | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
aren't. We need to leave it there. And I can tell you what, on our blog | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
page there is lots of fact checking and there there will be teams of | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
producers trying to work out whether, what some of the factual | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
differences are. Let me thank politicians, Penny, | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
Alan, our expert panel and our regular audience, we have had three | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
of these specials now, we are half way through them, our next special | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
focuses on migration, that is going to be on Tuesday at, the 12th May. I | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
will be back tomorrow. Join me then, good night. | :01:34. | :01:47. | |
Good evening. It will be a cold start today on Tuesday, some | :01:48. | :01:48. |