Would the UK Be Safer In Or Out of the EU? Newsnight


Would the UK Be Safer In Or Out of the EU?

A European Referendum special with Evan Davis. Will leaving the union make Britain's defences more or less secure?


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Transcript


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They say the first job of the state, is to keep us secure.

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Does the EU help, or does it just get in the way?

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Welcome to this Newsnight referendum special, with a studio of undecided

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and whether we'd get more or less of it, by leaving.

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We'll look at the big picture of European defence.

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What insiders will tell you is they are concerned

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if the British voice was no longer at the table, at those European

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summits and other meetings, the others would be more likely

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As one Frenchman put it to me, "Without Britain, we are

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And will our borders be more secure if we leave the EU?

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Would we just lose vital intelligence without

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The referendum campaign may have been dominated by the economy last

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week, but thanks to Theresa May, national security has

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The Home Secretary, a reluctant supporter of EU membership

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made her first big intervention today, telling us why

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she thinks we are more secure in the EU, than out.

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Our response to Paris and Brussels cannot be to say we should have less

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corporation with countries that are not only our allies but our nearest

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neighbours. And anyway, leaving the EU would not mean we could just

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close ourselves off to the world. The September the 11th attacks in

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New York were planned in Afghanistan. The July the 7th

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attackers trained in Pakistan. So my judgment as Home Secretary is that

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remaining a member of the EU means we would be more secure from crime

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and terrorism. But she also said some other pretty

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interesting things - We'd do better to leave

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the European Convention on Human Rights than

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the EU, she said. And she also suggested

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she didn't want more poor, corrupt countries to join the EU,

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like Turkey and Albania. She didn't put it quite as brutally

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as "poor and corrupt", She was counter to government

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policy on those issues, but she's meant to be

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supporting government policy. At heart though, we have a simple

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question this evening - is the EU aiding our

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security? We will delve into that -

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with a panel of experts here. And to start, let's talk briefly

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to one politician on Theresa Alan Johnson, former Labour home

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secretary is supporting the Remain Penny Mordaunt is the armed forces

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minister and is on the Leave side of the argument,

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she has been held up at a parliamentary vote tonight

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and will be joining us shortly. Theresa May was against the European

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human rights Convention. But against the EU? As predecessor as Home

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Secretary, she takes the same view as me that we are more secure in the

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EU. She has just concluded a negotiation that began when I was

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Home Secretary. Abdul Matt Taylor put into Detroit airport with

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Semtex. And there was an issue about the names of passengers being

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recorded across states. She has just concluded this passenger name record

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in directive which is important because we can exchange that

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information across all member states. She also got a couple of

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things out of the Prime Minister negotiations which help with

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security. It is strange that she is against government policy. What

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about new members, are you in favour of new members of the EU, Turkey or

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Albania? Many arguments about security are that we will have these

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countries. Of course we have a veto, it has to be every country. Should

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we use that veto? It depends, there is a big human rights issue in

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Turkey and they cannot meet Article six of the European Union,

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democracy, free speech and the rule of law. But if they pass that M I

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think the general principle of spreading the principles of the EU,

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the principles we believe in, are important. We did that to countries

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under the totalitarian rule of the Soviet union. And those under

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military rule and it has been good for those countries and good for

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Europe. That would mean that the EU basically has a border with Syria.

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It will be a long time before it becomes an issue and Britain has a

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veto. And tonight we're also joined

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by our panel of undecided voters, Perhaps you have made

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up your minds by now? On security, any points any of you

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are listening out for in the debate tonight? Looking basically for 1.1

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million, Syrian refugees, being taken in Germany. They will

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eventually be getting a European passport and they are then free to

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go all over Europe and the UK. That is no issue for me however, if there

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are some elements of security and a certain number of people who are not

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genuine asylum seekers and they have passed through, what kind of

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controls do we have over that and how do we guard against terrorism?

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Hold that thought. Any other worries or boards about security, how many

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of you would say security is at their book the economy in terms of

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how important your decision is best amok and how many of you would say

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that security is more important than sovereignty? Security clearly

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something of an issue. And lastly, quite a lot of this is going to be

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about Nato and events. Which dashed defence. Which is more important,

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the Nato aspect of security or street security, terrorism, how many

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of you would say you are worried about armed forces and the defence

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of the realm and all of that? And how many would say it is more about

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terrorism and safety on the streets. OK, that is what I'm getting. How

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strong will our borders continue to be whether we stay or leave? We will

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come to all of that in the second half of the programme.

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There is a live blog up and running, packed with extra thoughts

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and facts, you can find it at bbc.co.uk/newsnight.

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For as long as countries have existed, they've always known that

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for their security they need to do deals and make alliances.

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And right now, no-one is arguing for Britain to go

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The Brexit debate is about how we precisely configure our

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international alliances, and in particular whether the EU

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is irrelevant to our main defence group, Nato.

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Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban has been looking at how Brexit

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would affect defence and other aspects of our security.

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In Paris, they know Anglo-French relations have had their ups

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But at the Jena Bridge, built by Napoleon to mark his defeat

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of the Prussians, something happened when the tables were turned

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A British general showed the way to a new relationship.

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The Duke of Wellington discovered that his Prussian allies

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were about to come down here and blow the bridge up.

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They regarded it as a sign of their humiliation.

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the Duke posted British soldiers at both ends of the bridge

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to stop them doing it, and saved the bridge

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And since the final fall of Napoleon, it has been the same

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story time and again - of Britain backing the French up,

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often against the Germans, in one international crisis

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And that is why security and military people,

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particularly in Paris, express their alarm

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But if defence and security cooperation really takes place

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in Nato or through bilateral ties, why should leaving the EU have any

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The Brexit vote will be a lose-lose proposition.

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There will be less Great Britain in the world, and as a result

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of British departure, there will be less

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Even if you are no longer what you used to be, exactly,

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I mean, the two countries, France and Great Britain,

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still claiming the title of being the Deputy Sheriff

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We can't ask that from the Germans, the Italian,

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These days, when French soldiers storm the south of England,

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The current Griffin Strike exercises involve thousands

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It is part of an extensive cooperation between the two

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countries in Nato, the EU and bilaterally.

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A British exit to me is opening the lid of Pandora's Box.

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I don't think it is possible to argue that the rest of the union

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They will be, but how, in what way, is a far

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more difficult, far more difficult question to answer.

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The upheaval would not be limited to the United Kingdom.

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Or indeed arguably to continental Europe.

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The ripples could go wider, it seems to me.

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Among senior officers and intelligence bosses on both

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sides of the channel, I have found that pro-Brexit views

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are in the minority, but Rear Admiral Roger Lane-Noitt

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I am very supportive of Nato, as you would expect,

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The reality is I didn't see the EU was actually

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doing its job properly, pulling its weight.

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I suppose the final straw for me, really, was the fact that Juncker

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decided he wanted a European army and a European navy.

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When actually what they should be doing is putting

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Of course, there is a more immediate challenge for Europe.

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The spectre of further attacks by the Islamic State group.

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Intelligence is critical to preventing that.

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And there is a feeling here, too, that key relationships

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The essence of intelligence cooperation is, at the end

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of the day, what the respective parties are able

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And the United Kingdom, I think, still will have significant equities

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So that, at the end of the day, is probably going to be the key

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thing, in terms of how this collaboration continues.

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But when the France-Germany game came under attack

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in Paris last November, Europe's intelligence

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Much has been happening since to close gaps,

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and opponents of Brexit argue Britain could lose out on that work.

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What it does lose categorically is the automaticity of access

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to the data sets that other European services have, so travel

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information, credit card expenditure, mobile phone usage,

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and if the United Kingdom was no longer part of the EU,

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I assume it would have to renegotiate access

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The recent French and Belgium attacks have also caused

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the public to make a link between migration and terrorism.

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The discovery, first, that one of the suicide bombers

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here and then that other members of the Paris plot had come

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into Europe through the Greek islands, pretending to be Syrian

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refugees on fake passports, and work their way from country

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to country across Europe caused the whole nature of

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Many in Britain couldn't believe the security shortcomings that had

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been shown up by the attacks, but in some other EU countries

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they decided to take practical steps to change that state of affairs.

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It was Austria in particular that showed a willingness

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to push the envelope, in order to regain control

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The Austrians took a series of steps.

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Firstly, they put this fence on their border with Slovenia -

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not the most physically robust of obstacles,

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but very politically significant because it cut two Shengen states,

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where there is supposed to be free movement of people, from each other.

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Then they put a ceiling on the number of asylum seekers

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they would accept in Austria this year, that ran counter

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to EU and German policy, and then they started organising

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the Balkan countries down the refugee stream,

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to take their own concerted action to stop the flow

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The desire to take control, whatever the European Commission said,

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was not accompanied in Vienna by any move to leave the EU.

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Austria's display of independent mindedness extended to marshalling

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its neighbours, some in the EU, some not,

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to stop hundreds of thousands moving across their country.

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You know, we still urge for a European solution.

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And of course, a European solution is always the better solution.

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But there was, at the beginning of this year, a situation

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where we thought we cannot wait any longer.

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Do you have an idea how many asylum seekers are entering the country,

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since the Greek border was closed in Macedonia?

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We had 800, 900 asylum seekers in one day.

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So what is happening on Austria's border with Slovenia?

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At the peak of the migration crisis, 4,000 people a day were passing

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It was one of the principle hotspots.

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But workers here told us that since early March,

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when Macedonia closed its border with Greece as part of that plan

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co-ordinated by Austria, nobody has arrived here.

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Now, they are starting to dismantle the transit camp.

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The transformation is quite remarkable.

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And you could argue that the migration crisis shows how

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incapable the EU is, and therefore provides another

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The actions of a country like Austria in driving a coach

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and horses through the EU's asylum rules and the Shengen agreement have

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displayed that it can act energetically in its national

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interest, and not even think about leaving the EU.

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If there are now grounds for hope that Europe can get on top

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of the migrant crisis, there are still bigger

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And reminders about how past crises were solved.

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In a corner of Vienna there is a little relic

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of the Soviet Union most people have long forgotten.

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This war memorial reminds us that for ten years after the war,

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Austria, like Germany, was a divided country,

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but the Soviet army left here in return for a treaty signed

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by the great powers guaranteeing that Austria would not join Nato,

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The Russian foreign minister has flown in to meet his

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western opposite number at the Belvedere Palace and sign

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By December 31st, all four countries' occupation forces

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There can be no doubt in Austrian minds this is a step

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Today, as in the 1950s, the Kremlin is very keen to stop

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certain countries joining Nato, or even the western family

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And of course, it is the smallest states or the weaker ones that find

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that type of pressure hardest to resist.

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Would Europe be more tempted to adapt an appeasement

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Would Europe be more tempted to adopt an appeasement

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policy towards Moscow, without Great Britain?

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At least, that is probably the thinking of Vladimir Putin

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in Moscow, when you see that he wants very much, in a way,

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Great Britain to leave the European Union.

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But for those who favour Brexit, that is not a decisive argument.

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I am not sure Putin would be too worried about it.

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He would smile, and I think he would look at what is going on,

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but he may be worried that actually this could force the UK to be even

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But the UK not being part of the European Union,

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doesn't make much difference to whatever his plans may be.

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While Britain works out its exit terms, if that is what happen,

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The terror threat will remain high in Europe, and Russia assertive.

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Britain's allies would rather not be dealing with Brexit as well.

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So why has President Obama gone out of his way to make it clear

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that he does not wish Britain to leave the European Union?

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Well, it is because Washington is of the belief, and I believe

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they are right, that they can influence and guide European

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security better with their old ally in the union, rather than out of it.

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If Nato remains the cornerstone of western security,

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why are Britain's closest friends the US and France, so worried

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Well, what insiders will tell you is they're concerned that

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if the British voice was no longer at the table at those European

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summits and other meetings, the others would be more likely

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As one Frenchman put it to me, "Without Britain,

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Being useful to America, or for that matter France

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or Germany, might seem a bit craven to many Britains,

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but that, after all, is the basis of alliances,

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At the University of Paris Dauphine, there is a reminder those factors

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This utterly unremarkable building was, until 1966,

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But the whole lot had to go when General de

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You might argue the whole saga of General de Gaulle and Nato shows

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you can have huge ructions within an international

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organisation, throw it out even, and in the end people get

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Having done what they did in the 60s, the French spent decades

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regretting it, and in fact the best part of 20 years wheedling their way

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back in to the military structure of the western alliance.

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The unknowable, from Paris to Washington, is whether those ties

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of mutual interest would be sufficiently strong for those allies

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to make light of the headaches that might well follow Brexit.

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Food for thought from Mark Urban there.

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Austrian and French food in particular.

:23:29.:23:30.

You can see that in the Brexit debate over foreign policy

:23:31.:23:33.

and security, there is a parallel to the discussion we

:23:34.:23:35.

The central question is, if we leave the EU, do we lose

:23:36.:23:41.

a good relationship we have, and do we gain a better relationship

:23:42.:23:44.

with the rest of the world in its place?

:23:45.:23:46.

On the economy, the idea we'd have new trade relationships

:23:47.:23:50.

In security, the argument is around Nato and a better

:23:51.:23:54.

For this few minutes, let's stick on the subject of Nato

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We'll come to crime and terror later.

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Penny, Armed Forces minute stir has joined us now. Thank you for

:24:08.:24:13.

hot-footing it from the Commons. Theresa May, she is a voice, often

:24:14.:24:17.

trusted on security, I think, what was your reaction to her coming out,

:24:18.:24:21.

so clearly on the security issue, in favour of remaining? Her position is

:24:22.:24:25.

very difficult, if you look at who is on the Brexit side, it is Armed

:24:26.:24:31.

Forces ministers the Security Minister, the human rights

:24:32.:24:33.

minister... Not the defence minister. Not the Security Minister.

:24:34.:24:37.

No, the Security Minister is... The Home Secretary. It is those people

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who don't have those political relationship, and would be causing

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embarrassment to support the Brexit campaigner, the people who are

:24:49.:24:52.

concerned with the operational responsibility of keeping the UK

:24:53.:24:55.

safe. Theresa May is concerned with that, isn't she. She S who knows

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where she will be by the end of week. I think it is incredibly

:25:00.:25:06.

concerning, we are facing an aggressive Russia with, facing these

:25:07.:25:09.

increasing terrorist threat, and this is what we should be focussing

:25:10.:25:14.

on t practical thing, not bureaucracy, not setting up new

:25:15.:25:17.

committees or agency, the practical things. Let us talk about that. I

:25:18.:25:24.

wonder what your explanation is that senior Nato people who are not

:25:25.:25:29.

involved in the EU, the Secretary-General, a strong UK in

:25:30.:25:33.

Europe is good for our security, good for Nato, a fragmented Europe

:25:34.:25:37.

is bad for security, bad for Nato. Why do people like him say things

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like that. They know the way the world work, I know you have Diss

:25:43.:25:48.

missed Obama's comment, he doesn't explain Europe. But the

:25:49.:25:52.

Secretary-General does. There is much we agree on but I would say the

:25:53.:25:56.

trajectory we are on, and if you look at the state of the EU at the

:25:57.:26:01.

moment, we have weak and fragmented states, the film you have shown,

:26:02.:26:05.

shows the rising distrust there is between member state, people are

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having to break EU rules, to try and keep their population safe, and what

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ultimately, I know we are coming on the terrorism, what ultimately will

:26:17.:26:20.

keep us safe from Russian aggression is if we have strong prosperous

:26:21.:26:26.

member states who are able to invest in their defence, and security

:26:27.:26:29.

apparatus, and that is what will keep Russia at bay. So we don't have

:26:30.:26:34.

that, we have a growing problem with forced harmonisation. Will all those

:26:35.:26:39.

thing, I mean I don't want to get back on to the economic debate, but

:26:40.:26:46.

will all those things make Europe better attacking Russia? Do you

:26:47.:26:50.

think Brexit will make Europe better attacking Russia? Why does the

:26:51.:26:54.

Secretary-General think not, that Brexit would make it worse. I could

:26:55.:27:00.

quote Ben Hodge, he thinks it, Europe will unravel, it will be a

:27:01.:27:04.

knock on effect, he is worried by that. We have worked very hard to

:27:05.:27:10.

secure reform, in Europe, and we have failed. Our list, when we went

:27:11.:27:16.

into the renegotiations has failed and we have weakened our position,

:27:17.:27:20.

because the Prime Minister has given up our veto, so we are in a weaker

:27:21.:27:26.

position now, I think that a vote to leave will do two things, by the UK,

:27:27.:27:33.

taking back control of its law, its border, and its finances we will be

:27:34.:27:37.

Sayer, we will have the powers we'd toe keep our country safe, but it

:27:38.:27:41.

will also be a catalyst to reform in Europe. You could see at the end of

:27:42.:27:46.

those negotiations, other European countries saying actually, thinking

:27:47.:27:53.

about it we would like some reform. I wonder, is this going to be bad

:27:54.:27:58.

for President Putin, or good for him. I think the trajectory we are

:27:59.:28:05.

on is good news for those that wish us harmful we have distrust,

:28:06.:28:11.

increasing between member state, we have a situation where we are having

:28:12.:28:16.

a growing migrant crisis, and all the threats that come with that,

:28:17.:28:21.

what the EU is, is the authority without any responsibility

:28:22.:28:24.

whatsoever. We have to get, whether it is the economy or whether it is

:28:25.:28:28.

national security, us to focus back on what member states need, to keep

:28:29.:28:32.

their citizens safe. In this time of austerity, if we are doing anything

:28:33.:28:35.

else, it is a waist of resource and energy, that is what we need to

:28:36.:28:42.

focus on and it is the operational cooperation, the interopera bill we

:28:43.:28:46.

need to focus on. Let me pick up that point, Alan Johnson, no-one, is

:28:47.:28:49.

mainstream argument is not suggesting we leave Nato at this

:28:50.:28:55.

point. Nato provides the security, and so why is it going to make a big

:28:56.:29:02.

difference, on security, on defence, if we leave? The reason the

:29:03.:29:08.

Secretary-General of Nato don't want us to leave, the Prime Minister and

:29:09.:29:14.

the Home Secretary, is because the EU complements what Nato is doing.

:29:15.:29:18.

It is important, it is one of the two big organisations set up after

:29:19.:29:22.

the war, three if you count the United Nations to stop war happening

:29:23.:29:26.

again. What Nato couldn't do, is to do what Cathy Ashton and the

:29:27.:29:31.

European Union did with Iran, and to seek to negotiate, to start those

:29:32.:29:34.

negotiations that reduce their nuclear capability. Successfully in

:29:35.:29:38.

the end. What they couldn't do is convince the rest of the European

:29:39.:29:41.

Union to introduce sanction against Russia because of what was happening

:29:42.:29:44.

in Ukraine, but Nato was very keen for that but they know doesn't have

:29:45.:29:48.

the power, it is about external defence, the two work together. I

:29:49.:29:52.

didn't hear a single argument from Penny, I understand the arguments

:29:53.:29:55.

because I hear them all the time about why we should leave because it

:29:56.:29:59.

better for the economy. I didn't hear how it is better for our

:30:00.:30:02.

defence, the crucial argument that was made in that film, was not just

:30:03.:30:06.

for Britain, for our security, and for our defence but what we do to

:30:07.:30:09.

our neighbours and our continent in walking away. We have the biggest

:30:10.:30:14.

defence budget. Our expertise is better than other countries as well.

:30:15.:30:18.

And you know, going off into isolation and saying you get on with

:30:19.:30:23.

it now, doesn't seem to me to be the way to -- forward.

:30:24.:30:28.

We're not walking away from Europe. We are focused on building

:30:29.:30:36.

capability in Europe. That is not what this is about, it is about the

:30:37.:30:41.

nitty-gritty operational ability to keep us safe. Just one example of

:30:42.:30:48.

the difference between mission and EU mission, currently we have a good

:30:49.:30:52.

EU mission in East Africa, billions have been put into it and because

:30:53.:30:57.

one member state once that money to be spent elsewhere, they have the

:30:58.:31:03.

power to veto that. All the investment, billions of pounds that

:31:04.:31:06.

have gone into that, will be wasted if that happens and currently we are

:31:07.:31:11.

looking at someone from outside the EU putting money into that mission.

:31:12.:31:16.

So it is not an alliance like Nato. How does that help Nato for the UK

:31:17.:31:22.

to walk away from the EU, that is what I cannot understand. How does

:31:23.:31:27.

it improve our defence for the UK to leave the EU. Those networks, the

:31:28.:31:38.

Secretary General of Nato says it former heads of the armed forces say

:31:39.:31:41.

that, how would it help us to walk away? I would argue briefly that we

:31:42.:31:46.

would stop some duplication that goes on in missions. The EU defence

:31:47.:31:51.

structures, we would lose nothing by walking away from that, there are

:31:52.:31:57.

open to Nato and non-EU member states. The thing that we would gain

:31:58.:32:00.

is we would be able to take back control of our own borders. That is

:32:01.:32:03.

vital. We will come to that. We're also joined tonight

:32:04.:32:09.

by a panel of experts. On the Leave side, Richard Walton,

:32:10.:32:16.

who was Counter Terrorism Commander for the Metropolitan

:32:17.:32:18.

Police until January. a commander of some British

:32:19.:32:20.

forces in Afghanistan. And for Remain, former director

:32:21.:32:23.

of Liberty Shami Chakrabarti. And Rob Wainwright who is director

:32:24.:32:25.

of Europol, the law enforcement Sticking to the bigger defence

:32:26.:32:37.

picture, Richard Kemp, let me bring you in on entering the point of Alan

:32:38.:32:42.

Johnson, how do you help Nato by coming out of the EU. You put a huge

:32:43.:32:48.

weight Nato as the strategic alliance. There is no question in my

:32:49.:32:53.

mind having been in the British Army and involved not just on the ground

:32:54.:32:58.

but at higher levels throughout the Cabinet Office, the reality is that

:32:59.:33:05.

if we left the EU we would undermine the EU ultimate plan forming an EU

:33:06.:33:10.

army and that is what they're going to be doing. Too many of these

:33:11.:33:14.

generals, they're looking at fighting in the last war which is

:33:15.:33:19.

what generals often do. We need to look forward. The EU intends to have

:33:20.:33:24.

a EU army. The Prime Minister will disagree with that, many will

:33:25.:33:28.

disagree. There has been some chat about it. Jean-Claude Juncker has

:33:29.:33:34.

spoken of an army and navy. That would undermine Nato because it

:33:35.:33:39.

takes away resources from later. Already Barack Obama told us to go

:33:40.:33:44.

to the back of the queue and he was also today attacking the EU for not

:33:45.:33:49.

putting enough money into defence and he is right. We have a veto and

:33:50.:33:55.

we would clearly be able to veto being involved in an EU army. Having

:33:56.:34:02.

a referendum because the EU has gone far than people in the UK ever

:34:03.:34:06.

expected. And how much further would it go in the future. The EU project

:34:07.:34:10.

is about building a superstate and no doubt we would get drawn into

:34:11.:34:15.

that. If the Alan Johnson party comes into power would a beta of

:34:16.:34:21.

these things! It was a close run thing whether we went into the

:34:22.:34:24.

Europe and we could get sucked into something like that. This is not an

:34:25.:34:28.

argument that we would improve our defence by leaving Europe as I

:34:29.:34:33.

understand it, it is a fantasy argument about something that might

:34:34.:34:36.

happen in the future, that we leave Europe now because something might

:34:37.:34:39.

happen in the future that we have a veto over. Penny, is that something

:34:40.:34:48.

that worries you, a European army? It worries me because I think all

:34:49.:34:52.

member states need to focus on the things that have a practical a

:34:53.:34:56.

tangible benefit. If we had an EU army it would not do any war

:34:57.:35:03.

fighting. The notion that it could be deployed, or indeed an

:35:04.:35:08.

intelligence agency, that will not lead to greater intelligence

:35:09.:35:13.

sharing. To finish the section on defence, would be easier for us to

:35:14.:35:17.

persuade them not to have an army if we are in or out, one thought would

:35:18.:35:22.

be they're much more likely to have an army if the UK is in it. Friends

:35:23.:35:33.

aside, the UK is the only country to have serious military power and the

:35:34.:35:40.

will to yield it. -- wielded. We are having these conversations now when

:35:41.:35:46.

we're it. We tried reform in we've got to do do something that would be

:35:47.:35:50.

it a catalyst to reform. I do not want them to be doing things that

:35:51.:35:54.

would not make them safer. Security is not just about defence,

:35:55.:35:56.

geo-political positioning, and facing up to President Putin,

:35:57.:35:58.

or failing to. It's also about security

:35:59.:36:00.

on our own streets, That has been obvious

:36:01.:36:02.

since the Paris and Brussels attacks So let's focus on that for the next

:36:03.:36:07.

section of the programme. Again, you're weighing up potential

:36:08.:36:11.

losses and gains. If we leave, do we stand to lose

:36:12.:36:14.

much, in cooperation Do we stand to gain more border

:36:15.:36:17.

security and freedom to do We'll ask our guests,

:36:18.:36:21.

but security means being armed, so let's arm ourselves

:36:22.:36:25.

with some facts. Thanks to the channel and North Sea

:36:26.:36:40.

the UK still has a well-defined border with the continent. We are

:36:41.:36:44.

not in the borderless Schengen zone so we check travel documents of

:36:45.:36:47.

people coming in and of course there are any way security checks on

:36:48.:36:51.

planes, the Eurostar and cars using the tunnel. One important exception,

:36:52.:36:56.

the UK has an open border with the Republic of Ireland. Anyone who gets

:36:57.:37:00.

to Dublin can drive to Belfast and fly to the UK. It is not clear what

:37:01.:37:04.

border arrangements would apply here if we left the EU. A key concession

:37:05.:37:10.

is that EU citizens can turn up and get into the UK with just a valid

:37:11.:37:14.

travel documents. We can refuse entry only if an individual

:37:15.:37:19.

constitutes a genuine present and sufficiently serious threat

:37:20.:37:22.

affecting one of the fundamental interests of society. Obviously you

:37:23.:37:27.

would have to know that someone is such a threat. We cannot refuse

:37:28.:37:31.

entry simply on the grounds that someone has a criminal conviction.

:37:32.:37:36.

We can deport EU citizens but not easily. And again only in serious

:37:37.:37:41.

cases relating to public policy, security or health. Away from the

:37:42.:37:46.

border, the UK course rates with EU on security. Here is a phrase book

:37:47.:37:49.

of key terms. There's the Schengen

:37:50.:37:50.

Information System. A pan-European database covering

:37:51.:37:52.

anything from missing people, to those involved in serious crimes,

:37:53.:37:54.

and those who should There are more than 46 million

:37:55.:37:57.

entries and last year, Britain made a quarter of a million

:37:58.:38:04.

enquiries on that database. There's the European Arrest Warrant,

:38:05.:38:09.

introduced in 2004. It expedites extraditions

:38:10.:38:13.

within the EU and stops The European DNA database holds

:38:14.:38:17.

police DNA, fingerprints and vehicle 5 million records

:38:18.:38:28.

held across Europe. The UK stands aside from this. But

:38:29.:38:37.

then there are areas where the EU has failed to meet hopes for more

:38:38.:38:41.

information sharing. Most notably, plans to collect

:38:42.:38:42.

Passenger Name Records, or PNRs. The idea is to oblige airlines

:38:43.:38:44.

to hand over passenger data. It has been debated since 2011

:38:45.:38:48.

and has still not been implemented. A little guide into some security

:38:49.:38:55.

practicalities there. Richard Walton, you ran counter

:38:56.:39:08.

terrorism until earlier this year at Scotland Yard. How valuable and how

:39:09.:39:11.

much would you regret the loss of intelligence sharing that you were

:39:12.:39:15.

getting from other authorities in the EU? We face a global terrorist

:39:16.:39:22.

threat, not regional, and as the Home Secretary said today, she said

:39:23.:39:27.

passing across her desk were more cases relating to international

:39:28.:39:31.

terrorism outside EU borders went in. It is not a probably face but a

:39:32.:39:37.

global terrorist threat. And we need a global response and not a regional

:39:38.:39:45.

one. The database managed by the EU, I would say they are marginal, of

:39:46.:39:49.

marginal benefit and do not handle secret intelligence. Secret

:39:50.:39:52.

intelligence relating to terrorism is passed from country to country by

:39:53.:39:56.

naturally according to a different set of rules. It is of some benefit,

:39:57.:40:00.

the Schengen information system, the passenger database mentioned is

:40:01.:40:05.

useful and European Arrest Warrant is useful but marginal. I would also

:40:06.:40:11.

say that you do not need to be in the EU to use those databases.

:40:12.:40:16.

Iceland and Norway both use them. Neither of them are in the EU.

:40:17.:40:21.

They're both in the Schengen incidentally, so they share

:40:22.:40:25.

information that way. Europol have a number of operational agreements

:40:26.:40:30.

with a lot of different countries outside the EU, Columbia, Australia,

:40:31.:40:34.

the United States. So it is not worth that much but we would get it

:40:35.:40:39.

anyway. And for information sharing, there's a balance of payments

:40:40.:40:44.

surplus, we give more than we get in general? We have the finest

:40:45.:40:47.

intelligence agencies probably outside of America anywhere in the

:40:48.:40:53.

world. Our counterterrorism infrastructure is envied across the

:40:54.:40:59.

world. There is no way the EU would ever want to preclude our data,

:41:00.:41:05.

whether secret data or non-secret, from either Schengen information

:41:06.:41:10.

database or bilateral. We will carry on, if we let the EU we would carry

:41:11.:41:15.

on regardless. It would make no difference whatsoever in terms of

:41:16.:41:18.

information sharing. We do that across the EU but also with Turkey,

:41:19.:41:23.

with Afghanistan, wherever the threat might be. Rob Wainwright from

:41:24.:41:30.

Europol, what is wrong with that argument, it sounds quite natural.

:41:31.:41:35.

In Europol we operate many of these martial databases Richard spoke

:41:36.:41:38.

about and they are anything but. The Schengen information system is the

:41:39.:41:43.

largest security database in Europe, over 60 million entries. At Europol

:41:44.:41:48.

we are connecting over 600 law enforcement agencies, bulk data

:41:49.:41:54.

processing systems working alongside intelligence services and

:41:55.:41:58.

arrangements with the Americans. This is not having to choose between

:41:59.:42:02.

America or Europe, or even between different forms of cooperation

:42:03.:42:06.

within Europe. It is a complex terrorist threat we face, we need to

:42:07.:42:11.

have the maximum range of cooperation tools. At the moment the

:42:12.:42:16.

EU is building significant and unique instruments for data sharing

:42:17.:42:20.

across Europe. You saw them on the film, I will give you more examples

:42:21.:42:26.

now. But we would be in them anyway, they would not kick as out of any.

:42:27.:42:37.

But how do you know. There is no country currently has access to that

:42:38.:42:40.

database that is both outside the EU and outside the Schengen area. We

:42:41.:42:45.

would be that country. We would have to make a historical precedents

:42:46.:42:50.

therefore negotiation access to that database. So no direct access. And I

:42:51.:42:59.

could go on. Of course the UK wouldn't negotiate it is partial

:43:00.:43:01.

access to be some arrangements but it would not be as effective as it

:43:02.:43:06.

is now and meanwhile the rest of Europe is institutionalising the

:43:07.:43:12.

sharing of data through EU systems. Interpol has been existence since

:43:13.:43:22.

1956, Europol for 20 years. Interpol shares data and information across

:43:23.:43:25.

190 states. The last major terrorist attack we had affecting UK citizens

:43:26.:43:30.

was 30 British nationals killed on a beach in Tunisia. Tunisia is not

:43:31.:43:36.

part of the EU. You have duplicated what was already in existence with

:43:37.:43:39.

Interpol. What we needed to do was invested Interpol and not create

:43:40.:43:44.

another set of information databases and we had no idea whether they use

:43:45.:43:50.

the same search regimes. We have not done that and the rest of Europe has

:43:51.:43:53.

not and so far they have institutionalised their work through

:43:54.:43:57.

the EU including building up Europol in a way that operates in a

:43:58.:44:02.

different way to Interpol. Richard mentioned the attack in Tunisia but

:44:03.:44:08.

do not forget more recently right on our doorstep in Paris and Brussels,

:44:09.:44:11.

carried out by European people operating on European soil. Who

:44:12.:44:16.

entered from Syria, outside the EU. But information about who they are,

:44:17.:44:21.

where they came from, are they speaking with anyone in the UK, it

:44:22.:44:25.

can be held in the hands of European services who are sharing that data

:44:26.:44:28.

through bilateral channels and more and more to use systems as well.

:44:29.:44:33.

Interpol does not play a role in that. You made a case that we would

:44:34.:44:37.

not be worse off because those databases are not important and we

:44:38.:44:41.

would use them anyway but can you make the case that we would be

:44:42.:44:44.

better off in terms of information leaving the EU? I'm not making that

:44:45.:44:51.

case. I'm saying on that issue, let me just address one issue, Europol

:44:52.:44:57.

has been exaggerating its responsibilities and operational

:44:58.:45:00.

capabilities. It is important that the public understand it is not a

:45:01.:45:06.

law enforcement agency. It has presented itself recently as a law

:45:07.:45:10.

enforcement agency and it is not. It is not important counterterrorism it

:45:11.:45:15.

has never made an arrest, the public must understand what Europol is and

:45:16.:45:21.

what it is not. It is a platform connecting 600 law enforcement

:45:22.:45:24.

agencies through the sharing of thousands of messages every day

:45:25.:45:28.

allowing national authorities to make those arrests. If we have

:45:29.:45:33.

someone coming in here flagged on that database, that is not enough

:45:34.:45:37.

for us to exclude them from coming to this country. How often is this

:45:38.:45:42.

occurring, that someone is flagged and we let them in. We have to have

:45:43.:45:46.

different thresholds from people coming from the EU than outside the

:45:47.:45:54.

EU. It happens frequently. We have to have really a cast-iron case

:45:55.:45:59.

against an individual. A few a year or a few a day rest at thousands a

:46:00.:46:08.

year. 25,000 people last year. It is a myth to say we do not control or

:46:09.:46:15.

borders. Theresa May to have credit strengthened... We're just heard

:46:16.:46:18.

people must be let in. The thresholds have changed, Theresa May

:46:19.:46:24.

negotiated at tightening up of that. This is in recent negotiations. And

:46:25.:46:31.

they have no legal weight. It is an international agreement. The issue

:46:32.:46:42.

is about... We can stop people. Everyone has to show their passport.

:46:43.:46:49.

And everyone is checked and if people are not, if they have

:46:50.:46:54.

criminal records, they are engaged in terrorism, we turn them away.

:46:55.:47:00.

What is the current state of play, if it but there are thousands of

:47:01.:47:05.

people who are on watchlist is who we let in, who we would not want to

:47:06.:47:08.

let in but have two because we are in the EU? That is not the case.

:47:09.:47:17.

5,000 foreign fighter who are currently tying in crack, who no

:47:18.:47:21.

doubt will be returning some time soon, when the war ends there, back

:47:22.:47:26.

in to Europe, from the states they were, will they be allowed to...

:47:27.:47:31.

This is about the quality of information. We are not in Schengen.

:47:32.:47:38.

That would be ample grounds... We We have them on list, we look at the

:47:39.:47:44.

passport and we can say no. , So Penny is wrong. That is not correct.

:47:45.:47:50.

It is not enough that someone has a criminal record. That could be minor

:47:51.:47:54.

shoplifting, he is talking about terrorism. And including links to

:47:55.:48:01.

terrorist organisation, that is not enough to exclude them. The other...

:48:02.:48:07.

Links to terrorist organisation, is your understanding someone with

:48:08.:48:09.

those links we can stop them coming in. Without question. From the EU.

:48:10.:48:15.

So there is a factual difference, we won't sort it out here. But... The

:48:16.:48:23.

database may or may not The issue is the quality of information. I want

:48:24.:48:27.

to bring Shami in. We have been talking more security is better more

:48:28.:48:33.

intelligence is better, in your many years at Lynnty -- Liberty, no

:48:34.:48:37.

longer there, you were concerned about some of these things and some

:48:38.:48:41.

of the European projects like the European Arrest Warrant, which is a

:48:42.:48:46.

pretty quick expedited process for getting someone into court in a

:48:47.:48:51.

different country. If we leave, do we get more civil liberties, are you

:48:52.:48:56.

happier door we get fewer? I don't think we get, I don't think we get

:48:57.:49:01.

more, I think this is a shrinking interconnected world. We can't run

:49:02.:49:05.

away from that, globalisation is a reality not a choice. I want that

:49:06.:49:11.

globalisation not to just be about organised criminals and terrorist,

:49:12.:49:14.

and massive cop rat, I want that globalisation to be a sharing of

:49:15.:49:20.

human rights values. I have at times been critical of certain measures

:49:21.:49:25.

taken by you, but that is a very important point. I have been

:49:26.:49:29.

critical of certain measures taking by UK Governments and European

:49:30.:49:32.

institutions too, I want there to be cooperation on security, I just want

:49:33.:49:36.

it to also be subject to appropriate safeguards, checks and balances. I

:49:37.:49:42.

want to use you as an expert witness on deportation, one of the things

:49:43.:49:46.

that is said it is harder to deport someone who is an EU citizen. Will

:49:47.:49:50.

is a hiring standard of damage to get them out than we would need for

:49:51.:49:54.

other country, if we leave, will it be easier for us to deport people? I

:49:55.:50:01.

think that when we are talking about security, we are talking about, not

:50:02.:50:05.

petty criminal, we are talking about threats to national security, you

:50:06.:50:09.

are well able to deport people even within the EU, there is no doubt

:50:10.:50:13.

about that. When people form family ties in the UK, over a long period

:50:14.:50:17.

of time, they become more difficult to deport, whether it is to the EU

:50:18.:50:23.

or anywhere else, and that is rightly, because human heights --

:50:24.:50:26.

rights law respects the right of children to be with their parents.

:50:27.:50:31.

Is that the, European convention of human rights which is not do do

:50:32.:50:37.

with... On deportation, when people express concern, about refugees, and

:50:38.:50:41.

of course we call them migrants and everything other than their true

:50:42.:50:46.

name which is ref gee, I would remind people another part of

:50:47.:50:49.

Churchill's important post-war settlement and legacy is the refugee

:50:50.:50:54.

convention, we are bound to give people refugee protection under the

:50:55.:50:59.

refugee convention, I don't believe even Brexit people say they want to

:51:00.:51:04.

tear that up. Up. It is the Dublin arrangements within the EU that

:51:05.:51:09.

allow Britain to send even some genuine refugees back to another

:51:10.:51:12.

member state, if they came to that state first. Penny, do you buy what

:51:13.:51:19.

you have heard. 252... Do you want to leave the European convention on

:51:20.:51:23.

human rights as well as the EU? Think one of the issues about that

:51:24.:51:26.

convention that particularly concerns me, is the effect it has on

:51:27.:51:34.

our operations in defence. So, and I am sure Colonel Kemp with back me up

:51:35.:51:38.

on this. I will give you one example. When we were in

:51:39.:51:46.

Afghanistan, we arrested in a fire fight, we took prisoner someone from

:51:47.:51:51.

the Taliban who was making IEDs on an industrial scale. We held him for

:51:52.:51:56.

more than 96 howevers for his own protection, so that we could --

:51:57.:52:01.

hours so we could ensure when he was handed oh he wouldn't face torture,

:52:02.:52:08.

he is now suing us, successfully for breaching his human rights. You, it

:52:09.:52:13.

sound like you do, you can't pick and choose, can you. There are grave

:52:14.:52:17.

difficultties with what that means for us, because it is undermining

:52:18.:52:22.

international humanitarian law, things like the Geneva Conventions

:52:23.:52:27.

which do sensible things that allow us to take prisoners. Do you think

:52:28.:52:31.

most on your side, your party share your view that these two, the EU and

:52:32.:52:36.

the European convention of human rights you might as well come out of

:52:37.:52:41.

both, if you are doing the buy one get one free? Very learn people have

:52:42.:52:47.

said you, the only way to do that, is to leave the EU. I am not a

:52:48.:52:53.

lawyer. You want to tear up the human rights convention, that other

:52:54.:52:57.

part of Churchill's settlement? I think there have been unintended

:52:58.:53:01.

consequence, no-one set out to cause come casings but for me, if we are

:53:02.:53:05.

sending our Armed Forces into battle, and they are not able to

:53:06.:53:10.

take prisoners an they face being sued for doing their job, I think...

:53:11.:53:14.

What about the grieving families who lost their children at deep cut.

:53:15.:53:20.

They wouldn't have had an inquest that is happening. That is not the

:53:21.:53:24.

case. It is. As a matter of law it is the case. I don't want to go too

:53:25.:53:30.

deeply into that, Alan Johnson, do you think we end up coming out of

:53:31.:53:37.

the human rights convention? In case viewers might be confused, the

:53:38.:53:39.

European Court of Human Rights is nothing to do with the European

:53:40.:53:43.

Union, OK? It is, Theresa May was making this point today. It is the

:53:44.:53:47.

European Court of justice which is different. I don't agree with

:53:48.:53:52.

pulling out the European Court of human right, the convention was

:53:53.:53:56.

written by British civil servant, after the war, to stop that terrible

:53:57.:54:00.

including the Holocaust happening again, it very important, as a

:54:01.:54:03.

message to the rest of the world. But it is a completely separate

:54:04.:54:08.

argument. It, people are going to link them. It is separate. If you

:54:09.:54:15.

are going to, if you are going to leave the convention, arguably you

:54:16.:54:19.

have got to leave the EU. You have to be in both. People do say that

:54:20.:54:26.

condition of being in the EU... The problem is... Why don't we leave

:54:27.:54:33.

Nato? I want to tairt up because it places the rights of terrorists

:54:34.:54:37.

above the rights of British citizens. I have allowed far too

:54:38.:54:42.

much discussion, I want to ask Penny a few last questions about borders

:54:43.:54:51.

specifically. And Penny, Dominic Rab subjected we would have visas

:54:52.:54:54.

between continent of Europe and the UK, if you didn't have visas, would

:54:55.:54:59.

you get more security at the border than we have now? I think what, what

:55:00.:55:04.

you need to do is to take back control to be able to make decision,

:55:05.:55:10.

currently, you can't do that, there are all sorts of arrangements. You

:55:11.:55:14.

want to have the option, I want to be clear, we check everybody as they

:55:15.:55:18.

come in, we can't exclude them for small thing, we can only exclude

:55:19.:55:22.

them for big thing, what difference is that border going to make if you

:55:23.:55:26.

don't have a proper border with visas where you check people, they

:55:27.:55:30.

go to the Embassy and they are interviewed. There are all sorts of

:55:31.:55:34.

arrangements you could have. Visa free but some sort of light visas

:55:35.:55:39.

like we do with the United States, the key thing is, that you can make,

:55:40.:55:45.

with what intelligence you have, a decision about whether to keep

:55:46.:55:48.

someone out, or let them in. That is what we don't have. We don't have

:55:49.:55:53.

full control. I understand. What do you do about the board tweern the

:55:54.:55:57.

Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, because the republic is not

:55:58.:56:02.

going to put visa restrictions to France, to it is going to let people

:56:03.:56:06.

in from Paris, they are going to drive across the border to Belfast,

:56:07.:56:12.

they can get on a plane, fly to Britain, what, what is your solution

:56:13.:56:17.

for that border? Well, the, prior your to the EU coming into being,

:56:18.:56:22.

there are arrangements between northern and southern Ireland. But

:56:23.:56:27.

that is... What arrangements are you proposing? Those could be negotiated

:56:28.:56:32.

between us. I can't even, I am struggling to imagine what it is,

:56:33.:56:36.

other than a border. A military border is this There are a raft of

:56:37.:56:43.

things that you... One example. Police check, the presumption at the

:56:44.:56:46.

moment if you have a European passport you are waved through. What

:56:47.:56:52.

we are arguing for is to have the, is the turn the presumption round

:56:53.:56:55.

the other way, so it is, yes you can come in, but we will make sure that

:56:56.:57:01.

you are not a criminal, you haven't got terrorist traces. So a

:57:02.:57:06.

checkpoint between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. I used

:57:07.:57:11.

to stand at Terminal 1 and we used to check passengers as they came

:57:12.:57:15.

through. It was a border control. You know, from... From Belfast to

:57:16.:57:22.

Great Britain, or from... Both. Every other British border has a

:57:23.:57:26.

checkpoint. Have you sounded people in Northern Ireland on that? I am

:57:27.:57:30.

saying borders are not necessarily a bad thing, we have seen 2 hundred

:57:31.:57:36.

people killed in in terrorist attacks in two years because of...

:57:37.:57:41.

Last comment. The irony is the information we need, to identify a

:57:42.:57:46.

sex offender or drug traffickers at the moment is in the Schengen

:57:47.:57:50.

information system It is not. I don't know when the last time you

:57:51.:57:54.

stood at ard bore control point. That is what we are using to

:57:55.:57:58.

identify them. -- a border control. Our borders will be less safe. I

:57:59.:58:03.

want to, we are just about out of time ago eventually. We have had

:58:04.:58:08.

some clear factual differences which people will go away, check out and

:58:09.:58:12.

will report back on. I want to ask our audience. Have you heard

:58:13.:58:18.

anything that has swayeddown way or the other, more -- swayed you one

:58:19.:58:23.

way or the other. It is mainly -- made me realise security isn't a for

:58:24.:58:27.

or against leaving the EU argument, because it sounds like we will be

:58:28.:58:32.

just as secure if believe, so why is it, why, we believe. Why, if we are

:58:33.:58:37.

going to share information if we leave the EU, we the EU isn't a

:58:38.:58:40.

mechanism. I won't make so much difference. I am not hearing that at

:58:41.:58:46.

all. I am not hearing anything concrete to get of. I am hearing

:58:47.:58:52.

abstract idea, nothing concrete I can get hold of. Because I haven't

:58:53.:58:56.

got to the bottom of the detail, there appear to be devils in detail,

:58:57.:59:01.

then I am risk-averse, I would rather not change things, if I don't

:59:02.:59:07.

have a cast iron guarantee, that things are going to function, I

:59:08.:59:10.

haven't heard. It is non-scientific. How many of you listening to the

:59:11.:59:15.

debate tonight have thought, what I have heard would steer me a little

:59:16.:59:21.

more or more towards leaving the EU? How many would say the debate has

:59:22.:59:27.

steered you towards leaving? And how many are saying it steered me more

:59:28.:59:32.

towards staying? Really. Goodness. That is interesting. Penny you have

:59:33.:59:36.

a bit of persuading to do. I remember from the first debate, one

:59:37.:59:40.

of the comments you made was that you felt you wanted to be something,

:59:41.:59:44.

a part of something bigger, part of something all together, I think one

:59:45.:59:49.

of the most offensive arguments that has been put forward, from the

:59:50.:59:54.

re-main camp is that somehow if we left the EU, that France, or Germany

:59:55.:00:00.

or any other member state would not share information, would not

:00:01.:00:03.

co-operate with us, they would put their own citizens and ours in

:00:04.:00:09.

harm's way, to out of spite, and I think that is not the case, you only

:00:10.:00:15.

have to look at the out pouring of solidarity that happened after the

:00:16.:00:18.

London bombings or the recent events in Paris to know that that is not

:00:19.:00:22.

the case at all. The argument that hasn't been discuss tonight, is why

:00:23.:00:27.

we would be safer, if we came out. Currently, judgments that are made

:00:28.:00:33.

in the European Court are putting in jeopardy our only intelligence

:00:34.:00:35.

agencies is. Which one? The European Court. It is part of the free

:00:36.:00:40.

movement. Which decision. Part of the free movement rules and it is

:00:41.:00:46.

what it is saying is that we cannot share our information, we cannot...

:00:47.:00:53.

Which decision? You haven't reached agreement. What it is doing is

:00:54.:00:58.

undermine ourable to share information with the US. -- our

:00:59.:01:03.

aren't. We need to leave it there. And I can tell you what, on our blog

:01:04.:01:08.

page there is lots of fact checking and there there will be teams of

:01:09.:01:12.

producers trying to work out whether, what some of the factual

:01:13.:01:16.

differences are. Let me thank politicians, Penny,

:01:17.:01:20.

Alan, our expert panel and our regular audience, we have had three

:01:21.:01:24.

of these specials now, we are half way through them, our next special

:01:25.:01:28.

focuses on migration, that is going to be on Tuesday at, the 12th May. I

:01:29.:01:33.

will be back tomorrow. Join me then, good night.

:01:34.:01:47.

Good evening. It will be a cold start today on Tuesday, some

:01:48.:01:48.

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