26/04/2016 Newsnight


26/04/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis. The show is live in Liverpool as the city reacts to the Hillsborough verdicts.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 26/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

And the story emerges is that one of the outside gates leading into that

:00:11.:00:19.

terrace was broken. People without tickets got in and were therefore

:00:20.:00:23.

overcrowding the people with tickets and that is why the crush occurred.

:00:24.:00:28.

The vast majority of that Lott had been drinking, the ones arriving

:00:29.:00:34.

late. I welcome the enquiry which will reveal the true nature and

:00:35.:00:37.

cause of this terrible tragedy. I think anyone who looks at the nature

:00:38.:00:41.

of the offence, when they are placed in the position of having the

:00:42.:00:45.

knowledge those officers have, I think they will view it very

:00:46.:00:48.

differently. I think drink was a factor. The police certainly aren't

:00:49.:00:55.

to blame. The suggestion that two people, one the Chief Constable of

:00:56.:01:00.

the biggest police force outside of London, and one about to become the

:01:01.:01:05.

Lord Chief Justice, get together and cook the books is ridiculous. Now

:01:06.:01:12.

you can all believe us. Unlawful. Today I want to apologise

:01:13.:01:14.

unreservedly to the families and those affected.

:01:15.:01:21.

So, Liverpool 1, South Yorkshire police, Yorkshire ambulance

:01:22.:01:25.

services, successive inquiries, in fact, the whole bloody

:01:26.:01:28.

establishment that failed to stop a Hillsborough cover up...

:01:29.:01:30.

This is the scene here tonight - St George's Hall festooned

:01:31.:01:36.

with banners, truth, justice, decorated with candle-lit lanterns.

:01:37.:01:40.

This is to be the location of a commemoration tomorrow

:01:41.:01:42.

A collective sigh of relief that the record at last now shows

:01:43.:01:48.

that South Yorkshire Police, by allowing thousands of extra fans

:01:49.:01:53.

to pour into an already over-crowded stadium, were grossly

:01:54.:01:55.

The deaths were unlawful, not just an accident.

:01:56.:02:00.

And crucially, the fans were not in any way to blame

:02:01.:02:03.

It took a while and several goes, but British justice

:02:04.:02:07.

In fairness, the truth of what happened has been

:02:08.:02:11.

There was an apology from the Prime Minister in 2012.

:02:12.:02:16.

But today, the conclusion of an official inquest is the most

:02:17.:02:18.

important milestone in a long journey.

:02:19.:02:21.

Panorama journalist Alastair Jackson looks at the police cover-up and why

:02:22.:02:24.

it took so long for the survivors and relatives of the victims to get

:02:25.:02:27.

There are fans on the pitch in the six yard area. The referee will have

:02:28.:02:42.

to stop the game. Hillsborough, Britain's worst stadium disaster. A

:02:43.:02:47.

cup semifinal when 96 supporters lost their lives. Now, finally, a

:02:48.:02:53.

quarter of a century later, a story about justice achieved. All of those

:02:54.:02:58.

people didn't deserve to die in the circumstances in those pens on the

:02:59.:03:04.

15th of April 19 89. I just prayed, put my hands together and prayed to

:03:05.:03:09.

my son and the other 95, please God, you are going to sleep well tonight,

:03:10.:03:14.

James. An extraordinary verdict, so clear, so people utterly exonerating

:03:15.:03:21.

the fans, and the families condemn the South Yorkshire Police and did

:03:22.:03:25.

it with clarity and understanding of the evidence. Hillsborough should

:03:26.:03:28.

never been a tragedy where the facts are hard to determine. Thousands had

:03:29.:03:32.

seen what happened here and the chaos of the emergency response that

:03:33.:03:37.

followed had captured on television. There are a number of fans seriously

:03:38.:03:42.

injured. But the lies started straight after the disaster and the

:03:43.:03:46.

match commander, is Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield

:03:47.:03:50.

told officials from the Football Association that fans had forced

:03:51.:03:54.

open a gate. It was a rumour that reached the BBC commentary box. I

:03:55.:04:02.

have got an explanation. The story emerges that one of the outside

:04:03.:04:06.

gates leading into that terrace was broken. People without tickets got

:04:07.:04:10.

in, were therefore overcrowding the people with tickets and that is why

:04:11.:04:16.

the crash occurred. Four months later, Lord Justice Taylor concluded

:04:17.:04:21.

the disaster was down to a failure of police control. He played and

:04:22.:04:25.

David Duckenfield for a blunder of the first magnitude. The decision to

:04:26.:04:30.

close off the entrance to this part of the terrorism would have

:04:31.:04:34.

prevented the disaster. Instead, it was left open and thousands of

:04:35.:04:37.

supporters flooded onto it, causing a crush. The Taylor report should

:04:38.:04:43.

have ended the debate about who was to blame for Hillsborough. Instead,

:04:44.:04:48.

it was the last time the truth came anywhere near the surface. It was

:04:49.:04:52.

buried by a South Yorkshire Police cover up, that wanted to put the

:04:53.:04:56.

blame on the fans. I am saying, if police officers had been in there

:04:57.:05:01.

when this mob surged through, the police officers would have been

:05:02.:05:03.

trampled to death underneath. The vast majority had been drinking, the

:05:04.:05:09.

ones arriving late and they will not be told where to go, well do

:05:10.:05:13.

anything you are trying to do. What can you do? Behind-the-scenes,

:05:14.:05:18.

police statements had been altered to take out criticism of the

:05:19.:05:21.

emergency response. One South Yorkshire Police officer said he was

:05:22.:05:26.

there when the cover-up was planned. I attended the meeting on the Monday

:05:27.:05:33.

morning. And it was clearly put to the meeting that the organisation

:05:34.:05:36.

was going to put the blame on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans

:05:37.:05:40.

for what happened on the previous Saturday. They were going to go out

:05:41.:05:44.

and look at the evidence did Rivette. They had formed the

:05:45.:05:48.

hypothesis and they've got the evidence to prove that point. The

:05:49.:05:52.

inquest heard re-things were given on the night of the disaster by

:05:53.:05:56.

South Yorkshire Police officers in their sports and social club. These

:05:57.:06:00.

claims formed the basis of the sun newspaper headlines discrediting the

:06:01.:06:06.

fans. The suspicion Liverpool supporters were to blame has

:06:07.:06:09.

lingered ever since. As well as ruling the killings were unlawful,

:06:10.:06:14.

the jury concluded the fans were in there were to blame. For the first

:06:15.:06:18.

time the jury concluded many of the supporters died after 3:15pm the

:06:19.:06:23.

controversial cut-off point set by the original coroner. The last death

:06:24.:06:28.

could has been as late as five p.m.. The jury said South Yorkshire

:06:29.:06:32.

Ambulance Service delayed declaring a major incident. Only two regular

:06:33.:06:36.

ambulances made it onto the field. The rest were outside with no

:06:37.:06:41.

direction as the injured died inside the ground. It has taken 25 years,

:06:42.:06:46.

but these verdicts make it clear it was the decisions taken by the

:06:47.:06:49.

authorities here and not the behaviour of supporters, that cause

:06:50.:06:55.

Britain's worst football disaster. I want to make it absolutely clear, we

:06:56.:07:00.

unequivocally accept the verdict of unlawful killing and the wider

:07:01.:07:03.

findings reached by the jury in the Hillsborough inquest. On the 15th of

:07:04.:07:10.

April 1989, South Yorkshire Police got the policing of the FA Cup

:07:11.:07:14.

semifinal at Hillsborough, catastrophically wrong. The judgment

:07:15.:07:20.

opens the door for criminal prosecutions to follow. But for the

:07:21.:07:26.

Hillsborough families today, it is all about a vindication.

:07:27.:07:31.

The journalist Peter Marshall was at Hillsborough

:07:32.:07:33.

His Panorama three years ago, on the mistakes made that day

:07:34.:07:37.

and the efforts made year after year to stop anyone finding out

:07:38.:07:40.

Peter, for someone who went back to the first enquiry and had seen the

:07:41.:07:53.

conclusion is that it was the fault of the police and not the fans, what

:07:54.:07:58.

has changed, what really is new about what we have got today over

:07:59.:08:02.

what we haven't learned then. Learned in the Taylor enquiry? Yes.

:08:03.:08:10.

They said there was an error of the first magnitude made by the match

:08:11.:08:14.

commander. But they didn't say today as the jury said, that the 96 people

:08:15.:08:19.

were unlawfully killed but it was gross manslaughter. There was no

:08:20.:08:26.

conclusion. It is a giant step. It is not just the police, this is the

:08:27.:08:31.

first time a jury has laid the blame on the South Yorkshire Ambulance

:08:32.:08:36.

Service. In the Taylor enquiry, the Ambulance Service were praised, a

:08:37.:08:42.

knee jerk reaction. This jury said, they didn't do a good job and the

:08:43.:08:46.

rescue attempt was abysmal and people may have died because of the

:08:47.:08:49.

failure of their rescue attempt, them and the police. There is

:08:50.:08:55.

criticism of Sheffield Wednesday football club because there was no

:08:56.:08:58.

signage and they had failed to have a proper turnstile system and there

:08:59.:09:03.

is criticism of the engineers for the capacity because it was too

:09:04.:09:08.

high, given the restrictions with the fences. Also they fail to update

:09:09.:09:13.

the safety certificate. So a lot more blame to go around. What

:09:14.:09:20.

happens now? What happens next? There are two major in criminal

:09:21.:09:26.

investigations. Operation resolve under the former Chief Constable of

:09:27.:09:29.

Durham and also the Independent Police Complaints Commission

:09:30.:09:33.

enquiry, the IPCC, their biggest enquiry going on. They will finish

:09:34.:09:39.

by the end of the ear, supposedly. They are doing a lot of work. Going

:09:40.:09:43.

through a lot of witnesses and interviews. The IPCC is looking at

:09:44.:09:50.

what happened after the disaster, the alleged cover-up and what

:09:51.:09:54.

happens before the disaster is part of the remit of operation resolve.

:09:55.:10:01.

But there is a lot of overlap. It is not just individuals being looked at

:10:02.:10:06.

here. We know David Duckenfield has been interviewed under caution. But

:10:07.:10:14.

potential suspects, include not just individuals but organisations. South

:10:15.:10:16.

Yorkshire Police are not the only force under investigation. West

:10:17.:10:23.

Midlands Police... They did the first investigation into South

:10:24.:10:27.

Yorkshire Police? Yes, they reported the first flawed inquest and

:10:28.:10:29.

supplied evidence to the Taylor enquiry. They also supplied evidence

:10:30.:10:36.

to the DPP of the day which gave South Yorkshire Police a clean bill

:10:37.:10:37.

of health. And you can see Peter Marshall's

:10:38.:10:40.

report for us on Hillsborough With me now is Andy Burnham Home

:10:41.:10:56.

Secretary -- Shadow Home Secretary and a solicitor representing the

:10:57.:11:02.

families. Marcy, 27 years, what is your reaction to what happened

:11:03.:11:09.

today? There are no words. Even as a lawyer, I am stunned. Expressions of

:11:10.:11:18.

joy, the light, sorrow, sadness. There are no words that can describe

:11:19.:11:25.

it, it is an amazing, remarkable day and an historical day. Not just for

:11:26.:11:31.

the families but for Liverpool, and for football. Andy Burnham, the

:11:32.:11:34.

South Yorkshire Police came out and apologised today. You would have

:11:35.:11:40.

listened to that apology, I just wondered what you made of it? I

:11:41.:11:44.

didn't make much of it, to be honest. The South Yorkshire Police

:11:45.:11:49.

apologised after the Hillsborough Independent Panel report in 2012.

:11:50.:11:53.

The question for them tonight is why did they go back on that apology at

:11:54.:11:57.

this inquest and not repeat their admission of liability? Their

:11:58.:12:04.

failure to do that lengthened this inquest, cost millions of pounds in

:12:05.:12:08.

public money, but worst of all put the families through sheer hell

:12:09.:12:12.

again. It went two years, this inquest, which is a very long

:12:13.:12:19.

inquest, the longest we have ever known. And you are saying that lies

:12:20.:12:23.

at the fault of the police, essentially trying to hold out

:12:24.:12:29.

against admitting liability? Yes, the main criticism I make is of the

:12:30.:12:34.

retired officers and their lawyers. They threw the old slurs around in

:12:35.:12:39.

this court. When the High Court squash the original inquest, he said

:12:40.:12:43.

he ruled the new inquest should not descend into an adversarial battle.

:12:44.:12:48.

Sadly, and deeply regrettably, that is exactly what happened. That is

:12:49.:12:54.

because the cover-up continued in this Warrington court room. I cannot

:12:55.:12:58.

justify lies being told with public money in a court room. How was it

:12:59.:13:05.

for the families of the victims, going through this inquest? It

:13:06.:13:13.

wasn't easy. It was difficult, painful. These families have had 25

:13:14.:13:19.

years and they are tenacious and they wanted the inquest. What this

:13:20.:13:26.

day has proved is the result of the inquest process. One of the most

:13:27.:13:30.

amazing processes in the world in terms of looking at depths, where

:13:31.:13:36.

there have been questions, whether has been involved. It has been a

:13:37.:13:41.

really hard process but they have prevailed and finally tonight their

:13:42.:13:45.

loved ones can rest in peace for the first time in 27 years. One of the

:13:46.:13:50.

differences this time, they have much better state financed, legal

:13:51.:13:56.

representation. How much of a difference did that make? An amazing

:13:57.:14:02.

difference. In this inquest, for the first time, there was an equality of

:14:03.:14:06.

arms. This is needed in every inquest. Nine times out of ten, in

:14:07.:14:13.

fact, ten times out of ten there is an inequality, and as Margaret

:14:14.:14:17.

Aspinall said today, they families stand alone why the state is

:14:18.:14:21.

represented... By someone who is saying, it wasn't us. Inquest

:14:22.:14:31.

cemented the inquisitive, but many times they are adversarial.

:14:32.:14:43.

A question for inquests in the future? Yes and I will raise that in

:14:44.:14:51.

the House tomorrow. Also, please visit should no longer be able to

:14:52.:14:57.

retire just to escape proceedings. There needs to be a change in the

:14:58.:15:02.

law to say that you can't go off on all health to escape all

:15:03.:15:08.

accountability. We've had truth and justice, now there must be

:15:09.:15:11.

accountability. As we stand looking at this today, what do you think of

:15:12.:15:16.

English justice? Has it worked? It did get there in the end, the truth

:15:17.:15:21.

came out. Or is it a catastrophic failure that it has taken so long

:15:22.:15:25.

for the official verdict to reach this point? There have been failures

:15:26.:15:30.

and it has taken a long time. But look, truth, justice, I say no more.

:15:31.:15:36.

27 years, two long, but... This legal team have been brilliant for

:15:37.:15:40.

the families and I pay tribute to them. But in the end there is a

:15:41.:15:44.

positive. This country, although 27 years on, has in the end been able

:15:45.:15:48.

to look itself in the mirror and own up to some of the darkest failings

:15:49.:15:54.

in our past and that is a positive. The great big positive is for this

:15:55.:15:59.

city of Liverpool. In the aftermath, victimised, the slurs. They stood

:16:00.:16:05.

together, the people of this city. They understood what true solidarity

:16:06.:16:09.

means. Because of that solidarity, this city has prevailed and in the

:16:10.:16:14.

end the cloud has been lifted. Thank you very much indeed, both.

:16:15.:16:18.

Perhaps one lesson of Hillsborough is not to always think

:16:19.:16:21.

Back in 1989, the bad reputation of football fans,

:16:22.:16:27.

the aftermath of the Heysel stadium disaster, conspired to make it

:16:28.:16:29.

easy to link any crowd problem to hooliganism.

:16:30.:16:31.

Add a little misinformation fed to a credulous newspaper or two,

:16:32.:16:34.

and it became almost impossible for some people to ever shed

:16:35.:16:46.

the view that the fans must themselves have been responsible.

:16:47.:16:48.

One might say that the police diversion and cover-up

:16:49.:16:51.

was astonishingly successful, as it took more than 20 years

:16:52.:16:54.

For those there on the day though, there was never any

:16:55.:16:58.

One person there was Peter Hooton, the vocalist

:16:59.:17:01.

He gave us his reflections on the effect of Hillsborough

:17:02.:17:05.

That date is etched into the consciousness

:17:06.:17:13.

As we travel to Sheffield on that beautiful, sunny spring morning,

:17:14.:17:21.

nothing could have prepared us for that day when 96 innocent men,

:17:22.:17:24.

women and children lost their lives at a football match watching

:17:25.:17:28.

For over a quarter of a century, I've known the truth.

:17:29.:17:41.

After all, I was an eyewitness, I saw Liverpool fans, in the words

:17:42.:17:47.

of Justice Taylor in 1989, "initiate and coordinate

:17:48.:17:49.

I've always called them the heroes of Hillsborough.

:17:50.:17:53.

I went on the pitch from the North stand about 20 minutes

:17:54.:17:56.

Most people on the pitch that day, including me, where bewildered,

:17:57.:18:00.

feeling hopeless, confused or inadequate.

:18:01.:18:07.

I asked a line of policemen, deployed on the halfway line,

:18:08.:18:09.

presumably to stop what they thought was a pitch invasion,

:18:10.:18:12.

But they said they couldn't move as they were waiting for orders.

:18:13.:18:21.

The things I witnessed that day would haunt me for many years.

:18:22.:18:26.

In the days after the disaster, the city of Liverpool

:18:27.:18:28.

As we tried to come to terms with our grief and our loss,

:18:29.:18:37.

and even before the families had a chance to bury their dead,

:18:38.:18:39.

we were subjected to a classic smear campaign.

:18:40.:18:44.

A false narrative was promoted to deflect the blame away from those

:18:45.:18:46.

Or as Lord Stuart Smith's scrutiny said in 1997, the press reports

:18:47.:18:54.

Neil Fitzmaurice was in the central pens that day.

:18:55.:19:10.

He still holds papers like the Sun in contempt for what they

:19:11.:19:16.

When there was a movement in the crowd, a surge, if you like,

:19:17.:19:23.

you were going from here to five, six, seven feet away in seconds.

:19:24.:19:26.

And it was just being carried along and people

:19:27.:19:28.

You've got to remember we were on steps as well.

:19:29.:19:31.

And when people were losing their footing and going under,

:19:32.:19:34.

and when you were going under, you are never coming back up.

:19:35.:19:37.

It got to the point with the people who had lost consciousness and worse

:19:38.:19:41.

were popping up alongside us, because there was

:19:42.:19:43.

When those papers come out, and it was talking

:19:44.:19:46.

about the Liverpool fans hindering the police and saying

:19:47.:19:48.

the most vulgar things and attacking the police,

:19:49.:19:50.

It threw everything up in the air for me.

:19:51.:19:56.

I didn't know what to believe in any more, it made me really panic.

:19:57.:20:01.

But it was the authorities who had briefed the press with a fictitious

:20:02.:20:04.

The city was no stranger to protest and standing up for its rights

:20:05.:20:14.

But little did we know this would be the longest struggle in the history

:20:15.:20:18.

Brian Reade is a campaigning journalist, who for years

:20:19.:20:25.

struggled to get newspapers interested in printing the truth.

:20:26.:20:29.

I think there is no doubt that Liverpool people,

:20:30.:20:33.

by 1989 and the 90s, were used

:20:34.:20:36.

to feeling that they were kind of, getting the bad end of the stick,

:20:37.:20:39.

It was the whole Thatcher cuts to the council,

:20:40.:20:43.

militants taking them on, there was the riots.

:20:44.:20:47.

It was the butt of every comedian's joke.

:20:48.:20:51.

And I think there had been a siege mentality, you take on one,

:20:52.:20:59.

I've heard since, people have written to me and said this

:21:00.:21:02.

could only really happen - this is outsiders from Liverpool,

:21:03.:21:05.

said this could only really happen with Scousers, everyone else

:21:06.:21:07.

would have given up a long time ago because they didn't have that

:21:08.:21:10.

Today's historic verdict is a vindication for the 27 years

:21:11.:21:16.

of struggle and solidarity against all the odds.

:21:17.:21:24.

I just wish some of the families and campaigners who have

:21:25.:21:27.

passed away could have witnessed this momentous day.

:21:28.:21:31.

Peter Hooten there, who remembers the day all too well.

:21:32.:21:43.

I'm joined by Julia Fallon, sister of Andrew Sefton, one

:21:44.:21:45.

And Glynn Philips, a doctor who was there, who was caught up

:21:46.:21:51.

Good evening to you both. Julie, tell us a little about Andrew. I see

:21:52.:22:07.

his name was up there. If you had to stereotyping, you would say he is

:22:08.:22:10.

-- he was a gentle giant. He was over six foot. He had a wicked sense

:22:11.:22:18.

of humour, rather like my father. He wasn't a Liverpool fan, he was a

:22:19.:22:22.

Tottenham fan, what was he doing, just driving his friends? Yes, he

:22:23.:22:27.

was home for the weekend and they had a car and he had a spare ticket,

:22:28.:22:31.

so it seemed like a perfect idea. We were just -- they were just looking

:22:32.:22:34.

forward to a good day and the weather was nice and it was going to

:22:35.:22:39.

be a good match. What was your memory of that day? How did you find

:22:40.:22:47.

out what happened? I had just had my daughter and she was a matter of

:22:48.:22:50.

weeks old and I had just ventured out for the first time, been out to

:22:51.:22:54.

the shops that day, and I came home at 5pm and I was met with my father

:22:55.:23:00.

and my husband really anxious and desperate and they had been trying

:23:01.:23:03.

the emergency helpline, which wasn't any good at all. In the end it was

:23:04.:23:10.

decided that they would travel to Sheffield while I stayed with my

:23:11.:23:15.

daughter. They made the journey across and, like all the families

:23:16.:23:20.

really, went from pillar to post and ended up identifying Andrew in the

:23:21.:23:25.

early hours. In the early hours of the next morning. It really took

:23:26.:23:29.

quite a long time to establish? Yes, yes. Just in terms of how it

:23:30.:23:35.

affected your family... You have lost your parents since then? Yes,

:23:36.:23:40.

they've both died. So they didn't get to hear this. My dad died on the

:23:41.:23:49.

day that the inquests were quashed. I would like to think... I suppose

:23:50.:23:55.

all I can say is it is a really hard concept for people I think, when

:23:56.:23:59.

something has gone on for that amount of time committed becomes in

:24:00.:24:03.

bedded in your life. As I say, my daughter was a matter of weeks old

:24:04.:24:07.

when it happened and she has probably heard the word Hillsborough

:24:08.:24:11.

in some guise or another for 27 years. Do you ever go a day without

:24:12.:24:16.

thinking about it? No, and that is not because we are particularly

:24:17.:24:20.

overly melancholy all we have no desire to move on, which has been

:24:21.:24:24.

the common perception, it's just because we haven't had an

:24:25.:24:28.

opportunity to move on, so therefore we have always still been there. As

:24:29.:24:34.

a family and as a wider group of families, we've always had to be

:24:35.:24:36.

thinking about what we're going to do next. Claim, you were a GP at the

:24:37.:24:48.

time? -- Glynn. You tried to help? Yes, myself and my younger brother

:24:49.:24:54.

and two friends, we were in Pen three as the crush developed. We

:24:55.:24:58.

were fortunate enough to be able to escape to Pen two, by which time

:24:59.:25:03.

people were being lifted over the fences onto the pitch in a state of

:25:04.:25:12.

severe stress or injury and I made my way to try and assist and the

:25:13.:25:19.

first person I came across was a 19-year-old boy in a state of

:25:20.:25:23.

pulmonary arrest. I spent an amount of time with others resisting doing

:25:24.:25:29.

CPR, hard to tell how long, and we managed to get his hard going again.

:25:30.:25:33.

We ventilated him and got him into an ambulance and then I went to see

:25:34.:25:36.

if there was anyone else I could help but by then there wasn't. When

:25:37.:25:42.

it was all happening, how quickly could you tell it had gone from

:25:43.:25:47.

uncomfortable to fatal? Was it just a matter of seconds? No, it was

:25:48.:25:55.

minutes. The crush just gradually increased and increased. I'd been

:25:56.:25:58.

asked this before, how I would describe it. I've been going to the

:25:59.:26:04.

Kop at Anfield since I was 12, been to some of the biggest games you

:26:05.:26:09.

could imagine. In many ways we loved the atmosphere. This was completely

:26:10.:26:12.

different on an abnormal and sinister scale. One of the things

:26:13.:26:15.

people have learnt today, people who perhaps have not followed it as

:26:16.:26:19.

closely as you have, is that the emergency services did not perform

:26:20.:26:24.

well. That was your experience? There was no organised response at

:26:25.:26:27.

all, it was absolutely nightmarish chaos on that pitch. There was no

:26:28.:26:36.

leadership at all. Does it feel today for each of you like an

:26:37.:26:38.

enormous weight is off your shoulders? Yes, it does. It is

:26:39.:26:44.

indescribable. I was going to say it's early days but it's the same

:26:45.:26:49.

day. It is really, really difficult to explain what this means for the

:26:50.:26:55.

rest of our lives really. It's a massive turning point and it's an

:26:56.:26:59.

opportunity to put down years of duty, really. Because you can't just

:27:00.:27:09.

turn your back... Which is more important, the unlawful death

:27:10.:27:11.

verdict or the exoneration of the victims? For me, they have gone

:27:12.:27:19.

hand-in-hand. I can't choose between the two. We had this, station before

:27:20.:27:25.

and I just think if we had got one without the other, it would have

:27:26.:27:29.

been a massive blow. With the two together, it's just wonderful. A big

:27:30.:27:36.

day for you? Yes but primarily it is a day for the families. This is the

:27:37.:27:39.

justice they have deserved for many years. It also affects all Liverpool

:27:40.:27:44.

fans and the people of Liverpool. Those two points are important. They

:27:45.:27:49.

are at different ends of the spectrum, the unlawful killing was

:27:50.:27:52.

the massive one but I think it had been devalued -- it would have been

:27:53.:27:55.

devalued if any blame had been apportioned to the fans will stop

:27:56.:27:57.

what happened to the boy you help? What happened to the boy you help? I

:27:58.:28:06.

lost contact with him that they can he was put in an ambulance and I

:28:07.:28:09.

spent the next year almost believing that he had died. I went looking for

:28:10.:28:14.

him a week later in Sheffield hospital. I discovered when I was

:28:15.:28:22.

helping the police the next year that he had actually survived. He

:28:23.:28:27.

did not survive unscathed, he suffered brain damage, but he did

:28:28.:28:32.

survive. It has affected his life, he's never been able to work, he is

:28:33.:28:37.

on constant medication, but his family are grateful that he survived

:28:38.:28:42.

and that has been the best thing for me, that he did survive. Has the

:28:43.:28:46.

experience changed you as a doctor? I don't think it really did but it's

:28:47.:28:51.

difficult to say. Working in Scotland I was detached from it in

:28:52.:28:59.

many ways. Being a GP, you're like a foot soldier, in the NHS, you just

:29:00.:29:04.

get on with it. Maybe it did change the but I don't think it affected

:29:05.:29:09.

the way I worked. It made me very, very sensitive to the criticism that

:29:10.:29:14.

people of Liverpool have faced over the years and that for me is a big

:29:15.:29:18.

weight off my shoulders today, the fact that I don't have too defend

:29:19.:29:23.

Liverpool fans any more, the verdicts have done that for us. Yes,

:29:24.:29:30.

it is a big moment. It is huge. Is this the end, are you waiting for

:29:31.:29:32.

another phase, can you move on? There will be another phase but the

:29:33.:29:43.

families will take from this, the opportunity to move on and whatever

:29:44.:29:47.

follows, will be at best, a bonus. Thank you both the coming out

:29:48.:29:59.

tonight. It has been for many years for Liverpool to defend its

:30:00.:30:05.

reputation. It has gained a lot of solidarity and unity. And perhaps it

:30:06.:30:10.

can at least enjoyed some pride in its complete vindication. James,

:30:11.:30:12.

back to you in the studio. Today saw the first all-out strike

:30:13.:30:15.

by junior doctors in England At its heart lies a new contract

:30:16.:30:20.

that the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt, from whom we will hear

:30:21.:30:25.

shortly, remains determined to impose but which the British

:30:26.:30:27.

Medical Association insists Newsnight's Chris Cook has been

:30:28.:30:29.

examining how this almighty impasse was reached and assessing

:30:30.:30:35.

the likelihood of it Today, junior doctors

:30:36.:30:37.

in England did something they have never done before,

:30:38.:30:47.

they withdrew from offering even emergency care, leaving patients

:30:48.:30:50.

to more senior doctors. The culmination of a long dispute

:30:51.:30:54.

about a new contract It is a contract that

:30:55.:30:57.

disadvantages women, it is a contract that is trying

:30:58.:31:03.

to spread our services too thin. We are already struggling,

:31:04.:31:06.

we are already stretched and they are trying to spread that

:31:07.:31:08.

even further and that's Doctors were keen to knock down

:31:09.:31:11.

the idea that this British Medical Association strike

:31:12.:31:16.

was, itself, unsafe. Normally on our wards

:31:17.:31:19.

during the weekends, bank holidays, we manage to cover with one junior

:31:20.:31:24.

doctor on the ward. Today, on my ward there

:31:25.:31:26.

is four consultants. So, what are the points

:31:27.:31:28.

of difference between the British Medical Association

:31:29.:31:32.

behind me here, and the government? The first one, the

:31:33.:31:34.

biggest is imposition. It is the fact the government has

:31:35.:31:36.

gone ahead with this contract Now the reason they've done

:31:37.:31:39.

that is talks broke down. The government judged there was no

:31:40.:31:45.

point continuing to negotiate. That's because on issues such as how

:31:46.:31:49.

much doctors should get paid at the weekends and,

:31:50.:31:52.

what happens when hospitals give doctors too many hours to work,

:31:53.:31:56.

the two sides couldn't These are the hours

:31:57.:31:58.

when you don't get overtime. Now, the imposed contract would make

:31:59.:32:07.

overtime begin later in the evening on weekdays,

:32:08.:32:13.

but here is the killer - the contract means Saturday daytime

:32:14.:32:18.

will come without any Now, normal pay rates

:32:19.:32:20.

would actually rise, but the contract normalises

:32:21.:32:24.

Saturday working. The government says this is part

:32:25.:32:27.

of its plan for a seven-day NHS. They said junior doctors need

:32:28.:32:30.

to work more at weekends. I was a junior doctor,

:32:31.:32:33.

we always find we are working at weekends and nights,

:32:34.:32:38.

the times when ministers aren't and Parliament doesn't sit,

:32:39.:32:41.

but the NHS is there for patients. So will the BMA

:32:42.:32:45.

strategy actually work? Downing Street and the Department

:32:46.:32:48.

of Health don't seem to be The BMA doesn't have a clear game

:32:49.:32:51.

plan, if you like, for victory. But by extending the dispute

:32:52.:32:59.

they hope it will First of all, there's a chance

:33:00.:33:01.

something might just come up. For example, they could get

:33:02.:33:06.

a new Health Secretary or Prime Minister, who might be

:33:07.:33:08.

willing to compromise a bit more. Second, they hope with protests

:33:09.:33:13.

like this they will be able to pile pressure on the government

:33:14.:33:16.

so they might eventually change their mind about

:33:17.:33:18.

the contract imposition. They point out, it's going to be

:33:19.:33:24.

different but to do other things

:33:25.:33:26.

while this is going on. For example, they want

:33:27.:33:29.

to renegotiate the There is no chance a BMA insider

:33:30.:33:31.

says, of that happening Do you expect there to be further

:33:32.:33:39.

strikes after this week? You expect me to say,

:33:40.:33:44.

and I'm going to say, We will see how it goes,

:33:45.:33:46.

review what is happening. Where we think the dispute

:33:47.:33:53.

is going and frankly, I do hope, still live in hope,

:33:54.:33:56.

that by tomorrow morning the government will say,

:33:57.:33:59.

OK, we realise now it was a bad idea If they do that, we will withdraw

:34:00.:34:02.

the industrial action immediately. Labour's leadership joined the march

:34:03.:34:06.

today, but will that help the BMA? Do you think Labour

:34:07.:34:11.

support makes it harder No, I think what we are seeing

:34:12.:34:13.

is the whole community I am hoping Jeremy Hunt recognises

:34:14.:34:17.

now is the time to get back around You don't worry it will become

:34:18.:34:23.

too politically poison? No, the whole community now is

:34:24.:34:26.

urging for a negotiating settlement. We are part of that community

:34:27.:34:29.

and we reflect, as others, the breadth of support that there

:34:30.:34:32.

is for a negotiated settlement. There's another strike

:34:33.:34:38.

tomorrow, more may follow. Perhaps longer ones

:34:39.:34:49.

or even indefinite ones. No resolution is now possible

:34:50.:34:51.

without one or both sides in this Earlier today, I spoke

:34:52.:34:54.

to the Secretary of State for Health, Jeremy Hunt,

:34:55.:34:57.

and began by asking him whether he still subscribed

:34:58.:34:59.

to his previously expressed view that doctors were only striking

:35:00.:35:01.

because they lack the wit to properly understand the deal

:35:02.:35:04.

he has offered to them. The problem we had is that the BMA

:35:05.:35:10.

were not prepared to sit around and discuss this

:35:11.:35:16.

in a reasonable way. So you are saying. Does don't have

:35:17.:35:29.

the wit to understand the offer you are making them?

:35:30.:35:31.

No, I think many doctors don't actually understand the contents

:35:32.:35:34.

of the new contract and nor do they understand how hard

:35:35.:35:37.

the government has worked to try and reach an accommodation.

:35:38.:35:39.

We have actually had 75 meetings over the three-year period.

:35:40.:35:44.

We have looked at the number of concessions we made.

:35:45.:35:46.

I will just say this, I think the reasonable

:35:47.:35:49.

approach for a union, when a government is trying

:35:50.:35:52.

to implement a manifesto commitment, is to sit down and talk.

:35:53.:35:54.

Because this is something that will make the NHS safer and better.

:35:55.:35:58.

So the manifesto commitment was to the principle of a seven-day

:35:59.:36:00.

The detail is interesting, you mention doctors may not have

:36:01.:36:04.

read the contract, I have been in touch with a few who have, all 80

:36:05.:36:07.

We know it positively discriminate against women,

:36:08.:36:11.

That's contained within the rubric of the contract itself,

:36:12.:36:15.

it is a concession from your own department.

:36:16.:36:17.

We know that under the terms of the new rota, you can finish

:36:18.:36:20.

a shift at 1am or 2am in the morning and yet be expected to start your

:36:21.:36:24.

next one at five o'clock the following afternoon.

:36:25.:36:26.

Quite how that allows work, family balance or indeed travel

:36:27.:36:28.

to and from hospital, is open to some speculation.

:36:29.:36:31.

We also know there is no mandate, if you are doing too many hours,

:36:32.:36:34.

for your supervisor to report it to the hospital guardian.

:36:35.:36:36.

So again, it would seem the doctors may understand the terms of this

:36:37.:36:39.

contract rather better than you are giving them credit for?

:36:40.:36:42.

Interesting, because all the things you've just mentioned are areas

:36:43.:36:45.

where we actually reached agreement with the BMA when we had

:36:46.:36:49.

So the aspects of the contract was always safety.

:36:50.:36:56.

Everything I just said is contained within

:36:57.:36:58.

And what the current contract is, 90% of it was agreed with the BMA

:36:59.:37:06.

when I lifted the imposition of the contract in December

:37:07.:37:10.

to see if we could allow space for negotiations.

:37:11.:37:13.

The two outstanding areas of disagreement were to do

:37:14.:37:17.

with the Saturday pay rates and another aspect of

:37:18.:37:21.

But if you look at Saturday pay, what we are offering doctors is more

:37:22.:37:36.

premium pay for people who work regularly at weekends.

:37:37.:37:38.

More than nurses, paramedics, health care assistants,

:37:39.:37:40.

to work in their own operating theatres, more incidentally

:37:41.:37:42.

So I think on that basis, withdrawing emergency care

:37:43.:37:49.

for patients who depend on you is a very

:37:50.:37:52.

Doctors are heading across the borders into Scotland,

:37:53.:38:02.

Wales and Ireland to take up jobs that won't be subject

:38:03.:38:04.

And the general feeling among the junior and senior doctors,

:38:05.:38:08.

most of whom are in support of the strike in this country,

:38:09.:38:11.

is that their profession is being denuded and denigrated,

:38:12.:38:13.

so why not just meet the costs if that really is the only

:38:14.:38:16.

Let's look at the money we are putting into the NHS.

:38:17.:38:20.

This year we are putting an extra 3.5...

:38:21.:38:22.

With respect, that's not an answer to the question I am asking?

:38:23.:38:25.

It is a direct answer, you said why not meet the costs?

:38:26.:38:28.

Will you continue to pay them as they currently are?

:38:29.:38:32.

If you let me answer the question.

:38:33.:38:33.

We are putting in an extra ?3.8 billion into the NHS this year.

:38:34.:38:37.

This government is passionate about the NHS and what it stands

:38:38.:38:40.

for and in this year it will be getting the sixth-biggest increase

:38:41.:38:43.

And part of that additional money is to pay for the costs,

:38:44.:38:47.

But we also know from the mistakes, frankly of previous governments,

:38:48.:38:51.

that with that increase in resources you need to have a change in working

:38:52.:38:55.

practices if we are going to be able to offer patients that same

:38:56.:38:58.

high-quality care every day of the weekend.

:38:59.:39:01.

What we are saying is in order for hospitals to be able to roster

:39:02.:39:05.

more people at weekends, we need to bring down the premiums

:39:06.:39:08.

It's still more generous than pretty much anywhere else

:39:09.:39:13.

But we'll make sure no doctor is out of pocket by putting

:39:14.:39:18.

But you know the anti-social banding hours make up around 30 to 50%

:39:19.:39:24.

of many doctors' pay at the moment, so a 13% increase in basic pay

:39:25.:39:27.

Again, that is miss-information because they are not going to get no

:39:28.:39:32.

You have lots of small issues, but then you have the issues

:39:33.:39:40.

of substance and the BMA's own words were that the only two

:39:41.:39:45.

People will say, if it is an argument about weekend pay,

:39:46.:39:50.

for a professional withdrawing emergency care, is a step too far.

:39:51.:39:54.

You must be unhappy about how personal this has become

:39:55.:39:57.

and the fact that many doctors feel that if the impasse is to be

:39:58.:40:00.

breached, it would not be achievable on your watch.

:40:01.:40:02.

Is that what you were subconsciously referring to this morning

:40:03.:40:05.

when you said this would be your last big job in politics?

:40:06.:40:08.

What I have always said is I would like to do this job

:40:09.:40:13.

for five years, I want to be the Secretary of State who learns

:40:14.:40:24.

the lessons from Mid Staffs and sets the NHS on a path to be the safest,

:40:25.:40:28.

highest quality health care system in the world.

:40:29.:40:30.

Secretary of State, thank you very much.

:40:31.:40:32.

I should explain it wasn't my idea to conduct that interview with is

:40:33.:40:38.

both standing up, it was Jeremy Hunt's. This newspaper leads with

:40:39.:40:44.

the story of David Cameron and his aides employing WhatsApp to keep an

:40:45.:40:56.

EU secrets secret. The Times makes no mention of Hillsborough and Leeds

:40:57.:41:00.

instead with more reaction to the collapse of British home stores. The

:41:01.:41:05.

Daily Mirror bash families of Hillsborough victims have had 27

:41:06.:41:12.

years of sleepless nights now it is time for those guilty of criminal

:41:13.:41:17.

negligence have theirs. The Guardian, after 25 years, justice.

:41:18.:41:23.

The Telegraph leads with the simple headline, justice. That is it. We

:41:24.:41:32.

return to St George 's Hall in Liverpool and let supporters of

:41:33.:41:34.

Liverpool Football Club have the last word. Good night.

:41:35.:41:43.

It is going to be a cold start to the day on Wednesday with a

:41:44.:42:28.

widespread frost. But there

:42:29.:42:30.

The show is live in Liverpool as the city reacts to the Hillsborough verdicts, and the health secretary talks about the junior doctors' strike.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS