04/05/2016 Newsnight


04/05/2016

Donald Trump seals the deal. Can he be President? What is the European Dream? Child refugees. The man jailed for talking to ISIS. With Evan Davis.


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Will Republican nominee Trump now become the most

:00:20.:00:23.

Tonight as Ted Cruz and John Kasich throw in the towel, we'll ask

:00:24.:00:31.

which way the unpredictable Donald Trump will turn now.

:00:32.:00:33.

Can he unify a divided Republican Party?

:00:34.:00:37.

Also tonight: Gabriel is still in search of the European dream.

:00:38.:00:42.

Here's what Brussels values mean to the Hungarian Prime Minister.

:00:43.:01:02.

The car salesman from Delaware who became a do-it-yourself negotiator

:01:03.:01:05.

with Isis tells us his story. This didn't happen over

:01:06.:01:09.

a two-week period. I worked my way up to that point due

:01:10.:01:11.

to the relationships I have and I was very comfortable

:01:12.:01:14.

in being the middleman, Donald Trump is now at about a 30%

:01:15.:01:17.

chance of being US president, There are no other Republicans

:01:18.:01:30.

in the running, the rivals to Trump Who knows, maybe something strange

:01:31.:01:35.

could turn up and stop him, but work on the assumption

:01:36.:01:38.

he is the Republican candidate. Note, this is yet another shock

:01:39.:01:43.

to the professional pundits and pollsters, who didn't see

:01:44.:01:45.

it coming last year. It is also no less than a crisis

:01:46.:01:48.

for American conservatism, having flirted with the mainstream

:01:49.:01:56.

to the neo-cons then to the Tea Party, it has now

:01:57.:01:58.

led by a man with erratic tastes. He has not been very conservative

:01:59.:02:02.

until recently and has made huge donations

:02:03.:02:04.

to the Democrats over the years, Mr Trump has to unite his party

:02:05.:02:06.

and beat Hilary in November. Here's Katie Razzall

:02:07.:02:13.

with her assessment. They wanted him fired, but instead

:02:14.:02:22.

the Apprentice star is hired. I'm Donald Trump and I'm always

:02:23.:02:28.

on the lookout for talented people. I'm looking for someone

:02:29.:02:34.

who is a natural leader. When it comes to a natural leader

:02:35.:02:37.

for America, The Donald He'll be the first presidential

:02:38.:02:40.

nominee in 60 years with no Trump now claims he'll unify

:02:41.:02:45.

the party, having previously given the impression unity wasn't high

:02:46.:02:49.

on his priority list. I see him starting to sweat,

:02:50.:02:53.

like I have never seen I've never seen anybody that lied

:02:54.:02:56.

as much as Ted Cruz did. He's a war hero because

:02:57.:03:04.

he was captured. He failed miserably

:03:05.:03:06.

and it was an embarrassment to everybody including

:03:07.:03:11.

the Republican Party. It's been clear many Republicans

:03:12.:03:14.

wanted anyone but Trump, and in this most divisive

:03:15.:03:20.

of contests they didn't His promises are as worthless

:03:21.:03:22.

as a degree from Trump University. Donald Trump likes to sue people,

:03:23.:03:29.

he should sue whoever He doesn't know the difference

:03:30.:03:33.

between truth and lies. He lies practically every word that

:03:34.:03:41.

comes out of his mouth. That last comment was only

:03:42.:03:45.

yesterday, as Ted Cruz faced Pretty hard to come back

:03:46.:03:47.

from, you'd imagine. So can the GOP really unite

:03:48.:03:54.

behind their presidential nominee? The full Republican Party is not

:03:55.:03:56.

going to unite behind Donald Trump. You have prominent people who said

:03:57.:03:59.

outright there is no way I'm ever going to support Donald Trump,

:04:00.:04:02.

he's not a Republican, I think closer to the general

:04:03.:04:04.

election Donald Trump will pull in some Republicans who might have

:04:05.:04:09.

strayed away for a while. He's going to try to be more

:04:10.:04:12.

moderate, he's going to lean He's going to try to convince people

:04:13.:04:15.

that a lot of his rhetoric before was just for show and that it wasn't

:04:16.:04:19.

actually policy that he plans to implement, but I think it's

:04:20.:04:22.

going to be hard for him to backtrack, especially

:04:23.:04:25.

on his offensive comments. The latest polling pitting Trump

:04:26.:04:27.

and Clinton head-to-head shows On the individual issues,

:04:28.:04:29.

she beats him comfortably in a host of key areas

:04:30.:04:34.

including foreign policy. Education, he said he wants to cut

:04:35.:04:37.

or eliminate the Education And health care, he wants

:04:38.:04:42.

to repeal Obamacare. Clinton does, however,

:04:43.:04:47.

trail Trump on the economy, the issue voters ranked

:04:48.:04:49.

most important of all. He's tapped into voters'

:04:50.:04:55.

frustrations about the economy with big promises

:04:56.:04:57.

to make the country richer. His rhetoric on Muslims and Mexicans

:04:58.:04:59.

may have appealed to some of the predominantly white

:05:00.:05:02.

Republican primary goers, but analysts suggest he'll need two

:05:03.:05:05.

thirds of white voters to pick him in November, a feat reached

:05:06.:05:09.

only by Ronald Reagan, I think anyone who is predicting

:05:10.:05:13.

that he's going to tone it down does not really know the nature of Donald

:05:14.:05:20.

Trump. He is going to say what he wants

:05:21.:05:23.

to say, when he wants to say it. He's a completely unpredictable,

:05:24.:05:27.

from-the-gut personality. And I think that's how

:05:28.:05:30.

he is as a politician. They've been measuring how unpopular

:05:31.:05:33.

presidential nominees are at this 20% of people said they felt

:05:34.:05:42.

unfavourably towards Ronald Reagan A decade later, only about 12%

:05:43.:05:50.

of people disliked Bill Clinton. Other nominees have hovered

:05:51.:05:54.

between four and just Hillary Clinton is the most

:05:55.:05:56.

unpopular candidate on either side, ever, except, that is,

:05:57.:06:07.

for Donald Trump. But if we've learned anything over

:06:08.:06:09.

these past few months, it's that Donald Trump should never

:06:10.:06:12.

be underestimated, and that in this contest you never quite know

:06:13.:06:15.

what will happen next. Joining me now from America

:06:16.:06:22.

is Jason Meister, chair of the Trump campaign in New York and Max Boot,

:06:23.:06:26.

who worked as a senior to one of Trump's rivals,

:06:27.:06:30.

Marco Rubio. Are you going to vote for Donald

:06:31.:06:41.

Trump? Pretty much the last thing in the world I never going to do is to

:06:42.:06:45.

vote for Donald Trump, no way, know-how, not going to happen. OK!

:06:46.:06:52.

You aren't wavering on that, you are quite certain you aren't going to

:06:53.:06:55.

vote for him. You will vote for Clinton, presumably? I would vote

:06:56.:07:01.

for a Conservative third-party candidate or Hillary Clinton. I

:07:02.:07:06.

regard Donald Trump as an ignorant demagogue who is one of the most

:07:07.:07:10.

dangerous candidates to run for the presidency and least qualified. He's

:07:11.:07:15.

the last person we should put in the Oval Office in charge of the most

:07:16.:07:18.

powerful military in the world. He has shown that he doesn't understand

:07:19.:07:22.

the basics of policy, he is xenophobic, he is guilty of sexist

:07:23.:07:29.

comments, he doesn't have any real policy plans that can be achieved,

:07:30.:07:33.

he wants to blow up our oldest alliances, he would be an

:07:34.:07:36.

unmitigated disaster and there is no way I would consider voting for him.

:07:37.:07:42.

Is there a problem perhaps that it is your friends who are saying this

:07:43.:07:45.

about Donald Trump? How is this going to work? It's going to work

:07:46.:07:51.

and we are going to get the never Trump people to come around, they

:07:52.:07:57.

will do a complete 180. Donald Trump just one beating 17 well-qualified

:07:58.:08:04.

Republican candidates -- just won. I think the challenge is behind us. We

:08:05.:08:09.

have a general election facing a dynastic, a career politician,

:08:10.:08:18.

Hillary Clinton, suffering against a committed socialist from Vermont, a

:08:19.:08:23.

74-year-old committed socialist from Vermont. So the alternative I'm

:08:24.:08:29.

afraid is Hillary Clinton and Conservatives are going to rally

:08:30.:08:32.

around him. I'm sick and tired of hearing whether he will be

:08:33.:08:36.

presidential, he isn't Conservative. He knows how to create jobs, he's a

:08:37.:08:43.

guy who understands that you need to bring the corporate tax rate down,

:08:44.:08:46.

we need get government off our backs. We have come off eight years

:08:47.:08:54.

of President Obama, we have 10% real unemployment, we have the lowest

:08:55.:08:58.

Labour participation rate in 40 years and the economy is the most

:08:59.:09:01.

important issue. The next important issue is to deal with Isis and

:09:02.:09:07.

homeland security. I think we need an outsider, a guy who has guts, who

:09:08.:09:13.

speaks to the American people, not at the American people and that's

:09:14.:09:19.

what Trump does. How big a strand of opinion in the ber publican party

:09:20.:09:23.

and the Republican base, how big a strand you think you represent? --

:09:24.:09:28.

the Republican party. You say you will not be won over, what's your

:09:29.:09:32.

assessment of how many can and cannot be won over? We'll find out,

:09:33.:09:38.

in the latest poll by CNN, which showed Hillary ahead of Trump by

:09:39.:09:42.

double digits also showed that among those with... He was seen as

:09:43.:09:50.

unfavourable by 30% of Conservatives, so there is no

:09:51.:09:54.

question that there are many Republicans who will come around in

:09:55.:09:57.

the end simply because they fear Hillary Clinton but I certainly

:09:58.:10:00.

won't and I think a substantial number of die-hard Republicans won't

:10:01.:10:06.

stop your other guest makes it seem that candidate is a normal -- that

:10:07.:10:11.

Trump is a normal candidate with a plan to revive the economy. Let's

:10:12.:10:15.

not forget that he was to ban all Muslims from the country, he was to

:10:16.:10:18.

send the police into American homes to round up undocumented immigrants,

:10:19.:10:25.

he wants to destroy my two and pull our troops out of South Korea and

:10:26.:10:29.

Japan, he was to make nice with that Amir Putin, who was to start trade

:10:30.:10:33.

wars with China and Mexico, two of our longest trading partners -- with

:10:34.:10:39.

Vladimir Putin. He would make us it is lot less secure. -- he would make

:10:40.:10:47.

us a lot less secure. They are talking point is that we've all

:10:48.:10:50.

heard before, it's the media that's been attacking him. He has been

:10:51.:10:56.

attacked by both establishments, Republican and Democrat. He has led

:10:57.:11:00.

every opinion poll, he has beaten every candidate since he announced

:11:01.:11:06.

his presidency and opponents still don't get it because he is speaking

:11:07.:11:10.

to the American people and the American people are ready for

:11:11.:11:13.

change, sick and tired of career politicians. I know what happens in

:11:14.:11:19.

these things, everyone rallies around the candidate, that's the

:11:20.:11:22.

normal form. They insult each other in the campaign and then they rally

:11:23.:11:27.

around. It feels that the insults have been so vehement over the last

:11:28.:11:32.

weeks, Ted Cruz calling him a pathological liar, completely

:11:33.:11:40.

amoral, narcissist, Ted Cruz cannot now stand up and look at the

:11:41.:11:44.

American people and say that they were just joshing and that people

:11:45.:11:54.

should vote for Donald Trump? I think they can and you are going to

:11:55.:12:00.

see not just Republicans rallying around Donald Trump, you are going

:12:01.:12:03.

to see a tremendous amount of Democrats, people I call Trumpocrats

:12:04.:12:13.

rallying around Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton has significant

:12:14.:12:19.

weaknesses. We need an outsider to shake things up and Hillary Clinton

:12:20.:12:23.

is everything but an outsider, she is a dynastic politician. Her

:12:24.:12:30.

husband was a president. In my mind she is the Jeb Bush of the Democrat

:12:31.:12:36.

party. We beat him pretty handily very early on. Ted Cruz made it as

:12:37.:12:41.

far as he did because he was the most outsider as you get from the

:12:42.:12:46.

establishment. A quick one for you, Max. Do you see this as a crisis for

:12:47.:12:53.

Conservative? There were many Conservative choices on offer and

:12:54.:12:59.

none of them really seems to appeal very substantially? -- conservatism.

:13:00.:13:05.

It is a crisis for the Republican party, it's an open question whether

:13:06.:13:09.

it will survive Donald Trump. We just don't know because he has

:13:10.:13:14.

hijacked the party. He only signed up as a Republican in 2012, he isn't

:13:15.:13:21.

the Medley Conservative, he is a populist demagogue -- he isn't

:13:22.:13:28.

remotely Conservative. 40% of Republican primary voters supported

:13:29.:13:31.

him, 10 million people, but in a general election, 130 million people

:13:32.:13:35.

are going to vote. It's funny that the Trump spokesman says we have to

:13:36.:13:40.

listen to the polls numbers, he has been number one in the primary

:13:41.:13:45.

hulls, but he is behind by double digit amounts in the general

:13:46.:13:50.

election polls. He has high unfavourable numbers. Has he brought

:13:51.:13:56.

millions of new voters into the party? He may have brought in some

:13:57.:14:02.

voters but he is driving others out. We have to leave it there. Thank you

:14:03.:14:03.

for joining us. Now, back to Europe,

:14:04.:14:06.

and for the second film in our series looking at the EU

:14:07.:14:08.

from the perspective If you saw last night,

:14:09.:14:10.

you'll know they had a dream of a united Europe

:14:11.:14:14.

and Gabriel Gatehouse has been touring the continent,

:14:15.:14:16.

assessing how much of that To some extent, those post-war

:14:17.:14:18.

visionaries had hoped that our attachment to the idea

:14:19.:14:23.

of the nation state might fade, and the free movement of people

:14:24.:14:26.

around the continent would help But Europe has changed,

:14:27.:14:29.

the EU is much larger than envisaged, and as Gabriel

:14:30.:14:34.

finds, the nation state has proved Out of the ruins of war

:14:35.:14:37.

there rose a vision. What were the aims of

:14:38.:14:58.

the EU's founding Fathers? Last night we examined

:14:59.:15:08.

ever closer union. Tonight we are looking

:15:09.:15:14.

at freedom of movement. We are asking, what's become

:15:15.:15:18.

of the European dream? Apart from a few road signs there's

:15:19.:15:24.

nothing here to tell you that I've just walked

:15:25.:15:28.

across an international frontier. And not just any old frontier,

:15:29.:15:33.

because it's not so very long ago Stretching all the way from

:15:34.:15:38.

the Baltic to the Mediterranean. A line of barbed wire dividing

:15:39.:15:46.

Europe into binary opposites. And this, right here,

:15:47.:15:48.

is the spot where the fence On Hungary's border with Austria,

:15:49.:15:52.

thousands gathered to protest. Inside the Soviet bloc,

:15:53.:16:12.

the pressure was building. A group of East Germans made

:16:13.:16:16.

a dash for the fence. 27 years ago this man stood

:16:17.:16:21.

between them and the West. Arpad Bella was in command

:16:22.:16:32.

of the Hungarian His orders were to protect this

:16:33.:16:35.

crossing by force if necessary. He now faced the most momentous

:16:36.:17:00.

decision of his life, one that could help change

:17:01.:17:02.

the course of European history. And so they set off

:17:03.:17:16.

a chain of events. Three months later the fall

:17:17.:17:30.

of the Berlin Wall. The biggest expansion

:17:31.:17:33.

of the European project Now they could move freely

:17:34.:17:40.

across the continent. Having played his part in tearing

:17:41.:17:44.

down the Iron Curtain, Arpad now believes that Europe

:17:45.:17:56.

should again be building fences. So what's happened to the dream

:17:57.:18:39.

of a Europe without borders? What happened to de facto

:18:40.:18:44.

solidarity? In the former Communist states,

:18:45.:18:55.

EU accession has meant freedom For Andras Lovas, a doctor

:18:56.:18:58.

in the Hungarian town of Szeged, it has meant the freedom to move

:18:59.:19:07.

and work throughout the union. For me the European Union is a great

:19:08.:19:10.

thing because I am free to move. It was really easy to move

:19:11.:19:15.

to the UK when I went It was free to move,

:19:16.:19:18.

free to cross the border. But across Eastern Europe,

:19:19.:19:23.

millions of people are moving west for work, and unlike Andras,

:19:24.:19:34.

many don't come back. Bad for my country because more

:19:35.:19:36.

and more of my friends More and more of my friends leave

:19:37.:19:38.

the country, not just to the UK, In Szeged a nurse in a care home

:19:39.:19:43.

earns one sixth of what they When it comes to prosperity the EU

:19:44.:19:47.

has failed to bridge the old gulf The young and the capable are often

:19:48.:19:54.

the first to leave. The Hungarian health care

:19:55.:20:01.

system is under strain. We have an estimation that since

:20:02.:20:06.

Hungary joined the European Union, probably or approximately 5000

:20:07.:20:11.

medical doctors already There's a deeper sense

:20:12.:20:13.

of unease with Europe, here. An unease that was thrown

:20:14.:20:30.

into sharp relief last summer. Europe's failure to forge a common

:20:31.:20:37.

response boiled over at the train station in Budapest after Germany

:20:38.:20:46.

had unilaterally declared itself And so began the mass movement

:20:47.:20:51.

of people across an unwillingness When the Iron Curtain crumbled,

:20:52.:21:01.

people thought they'd said But when Brussels talks

:21:02.:21:06.

about mandatory quotas for refugees, many see that as the imposition

:21:07.:21:14.

of a liberal worldview. Hungary was the first

:21:15.:21:20.

to close its borders. Freedom of movement is being trumped

:21:21.:21:22.

by concerns over cultural identity. The Hungarian Prime Minister has

:21:23.:21:53.

taken these ideas from the fringes For him and his supporters,

:21:54.:21:57.

the biggest threat to their European identity is the European Union

:21:58.:22:04.

itself. There is a growing dissident

:22:05.:22:32.

movement in European politics. One which rejects ever closer union

:22:33.:22:37.

in favour of a strong nation state. Viktor Orban calls it

:22:38.:22:43.

illiberal democracy. His spokesman thinks liberalism has

:22:44.:22:47.

become an oppressive ideology. Liberalism originally was giving

:22:48.:22:52.

place and space for open, What we see today, that in the name

:22:53.:22:56.

of liberalism, apart from monopolising a couple

:22:57.:23:03.

of issues and themes, there's also a restriction

:23:04.:23:06.

on what and how shall We believe that in most

:23:07.:23:08.

countries around Europe there is maybe a silent

:23:09.:23:17.

but growing majority that recognise what's going on at the European

:23:18.:23:19.

level is maybe against the very nature of the continent,

:23:20.:23:22.

of the culture we are living in. The freedom to travel,

:23:23.:23:27.

investment in infrastructure, billions of euros from the common

:23:28.:23:36.

European pot, somehow all of this has failed to coalesce

:23:37.:23:39.

into a sense of common purpose. And the divisions over Europe's

:23:40.:23:50.

borders are opening up Fissures that are ripe

:23:51.:23:53.

for exploitation. This is the Paks

:23:54.:23:58.

nuclear power plant. Last year Russia agreed to lend

:23:59.:24:00.

Hungary billions of euros Viktor Orban, an admirer

:24:01.:24:06.

of Vladimir Putin, has simultaneously oppose the EU

:24:07.:24:19.

sanctions against Russia. Including Zoltan Illes,

:24:20.:24:21.

who was a minister in Orban's government when the secretive

:24:22.:24:25.

deal was announced. Russia was definitely buying

:24:26.:24:27.

influence in Hungary, and also from a Russian perspective

:24:28.:24:28.

in the whole of Europe. Spending 13 or 14 billion euros

:24:29.:24:33.

in Hungary developing, building up the nuclear facility,

:24:34.:24:39.

power station, for decades Russia will be involved in energy policies

:24:40.:24:44.

of this country as well as Europe. On foreign policy, on border

:24:45.:24:49.

control, on that de facto solidarity, Europe does not

:24:50.:24:51.

speak with one voice. Last night we met one of the EU's

:24:52.:24:57.

founding fathers, Georges Berthoin. In so many fields he believes Europe

:24:58.:25:04.

has not gone far enough. All governments wanted

:25:05.:25:08.

to remain halfway. They wanted a bit of Europe,

:25:09.:25:11.

not too much. All right, when you remain halfway,

:25:12.:25:19.

you have the worst The fall of the Berlin Wall

:25:20.:25:22.

once looked like the The historical inevitability

:25:23.:25:31.

of ever closer union. What 1989 did was it

:25:32.:25:36.

opened Europe up. It gave the peoples of East and West

:25:37.:25:44.

freedom of movement, one of the cornerstones

:25:45.:25:48.

of the European dream. What the migration crisis has done

:25:49.:25:55.

is it's highlighted another aspect, and that is,

:25:56.:25:57.

if you abolish your national borders you also sacrifice part

:25:58.:25:59.

of your sovereignty. And it turns out that there's

:26:00.:26:02.

huge resistance to that. Not just here in Hungary,

:26:03.:26:06.

but across the continent. And so, more than a quarter-century

:26:07.:26:17.

after they tore down the Iron Curtain, they are putting

:26:18.:26:22.

fences back up again. In Hungary and Poland,

:26:23.:26:27.

in Slovakia and Austria, even in Germany and France,

:26:28.:26:32.

the political momentum is shifting towards those who reject the dream

:26:33.:26:36.

of Europe as common space. There are others for whom that idea

:26:37.:26:42.

still exerts an irresistible draw. It is an irony that they are often

:26:43.:26:46.

the ones on the other This is perhaps the biggest

:26:47.:26:49.

crisis of legitimacy Tomorrow night, the economic

:26:50.:27:00.

and political imbalance at the heart Can democratic sovereignty

:27:01.:27:08.

survive monetary union? Gabriel Gatehouse, and part three

:27:09.:27:18.

of that series will be tomorrow. Free movement in the EU

:27:19.:27:21.

is of course, not automatically extended to migrants,

:27:22.:27:24.

or non-EU citizens. Among the many on the continent are

:27:25.:27:29.

thousands of unaccompanied children. The government has controversially

:27:30.:27:34.

resisted taking a share of those children to settle,

:27:35.:27:37.

but it did make a u-turn on that today, saying it would take

:27:38.:27:40.

an unspecified number. Nick Watt, our political editor

:27:41.:27:42.

is with me. What made them do that? They did a

:27:43.:27:51.

raw assessment of the numbers and the numbers were not good. When you

:27:52.:27:56.

put together labour opposition, Liberal Democrat opposition, SNP

:27:57.:28:02.

opposition, at most significantly a significant body of Conservative

:28:03.:28:06.

MPs, Prime Minister looked at the numbers and said, we better beat a

:28:07.:28:10.

hasty retreat. Otherwise there would have been parliamentary ping-pong

:28:11.:28:14.

with the bill going between the two chambers of parliament. And it was

:28:15.:28:17.

under the cover of the anti-Semitism row. Did they themselves think,

:28:18.:28:23.

we've just lost the argument on this? We lost the case and we should

:28:24.:28:28.

withdraw with dignity? The Prime Minister is not going to want to

:28:29.:28:31.

make that he lost an argument but there is one area he has abandoned

:28:32.:28:36.

the defining feature of his response to this crisis which was that the UK

:28:37.:28:41.

would not take refugees from continental Europe, but only from

:28:42.:28:44.

camps in the region, because he would not want to encourage people

:28:45.:28:48.

to cross the Mediterranean. One area where they say they are wrong firm

:28:49.:28:53.

ground, they say they wanted to avoid the mistake Angela Merkel

:28:54.:28:56.

made, to say that the borders for Germany were open. They have come up

:28:57.:29:01.

with a cut-off which they say should avoid the problems.

:29:02.:29:04.

Well, joining me now to discuss this is the MEP Stephen Woolfe,

:29:05.:29:08.

Ukip's frontbench spokesperson on migration, and Heidi Allen,

:29:09.:29:11.

Conservative MP for South Cambridgeshire who had said

:29:12.:29:13.

she was prepared to vote against the government before

:29:14.:29:16.

David Cameron's policy u-turn earlier today.

:29:17.:29:21.

You have been welcoming all over the place today, the policy. Do you know

:29:22.:29:30.

what the policy is, how many are we talking about? It is being firmed up

:29:31.:29:36.

as we speak. The clear message from the Immigration Minister James

:29:37.:29:38.

Brokenshire I is that as soon as we are out of the local election

:29:39.:29:43.

tomorrow he is going to write to the local authorities asking what they

:29:44.:29:47.

can take. Last year, we resettled about 3000 children in this country.

:29:48.:29:52.

He will be talking in those terms, that's what we did last year, look

:29:53.:29:56.

for those numbers this year. Last year they were taken from camps

:29:57.:30:01.

around Syria. Some of them. The question is, if we take some from

:30:02.:30:05.

continental Europe, are we going to take viewer from the camps? The same

:30:06.:30:11.

number in total, but just switching? No, this is just in addition. Are

:30:12.:30:16.

you sure, more than last year? If you look at the legislation, the

:30:17.:30:21.

amendment we are accepting, we talk about the original 20,000 scheme,

:30:22.:30:25.

the 3000 announced a fortnight ago and this is in addition. How many

:30:26.:30:30.

are you expecting to be Syrian, and how many from other parts of the

:30:31.:30:34.

world? To be honest I don't think the analysis has been done, nor is

:30:35.:30:37.

it likely because the government policy is to work with the experts

:30:38.:30:43.

on the ground, Save the Children, UNHCR, and take guidance from them.

:30:44.:30:46.

Children at risk who are the most honourable. You aren't -- the most

:30:47.:30:53.

vulnerable. You would rather the government stuck to the original

:30:54.:30:57.

line? Yes, we need to ensure that the people traffickers who are

:30:58.:31:01.

making billions out of this, and everyone knows that they are, we

:31:02.:31:06.

must ensure that they are not using the children as a weapon in some

:31:07.:31:10.

ways. If you have the children in the camps, where they are well

:31:11.:31:14.

looked after by the same government agencies that Heidi has talked

:31:15.:31:18.

about, you can safely assure that they are looked after, we can make

:31:19.:31:21.

sure that the asylum process are looked after there. It is difficult

:31:22.:31:27.

to make sure when they come into the UK. Yes, there will be 3000 children

:31:28.:31:31.

coming over who are suffering in the camps at the moment, but there are

:31:32.:31:36.

100,000 children in the United Kingdom tonight who will be living

:31:37.:31:41.

in homeless accommodation, bed-and-breakfast, hotels and they

:31:42.:31:43.

will feel that they are being put to the back of the queue. Can I ask you

:31:44.:31:50.

what you would expect to happen to those children who are already in

:31:51.:31:55.

Europe, who are if you like and accompanied, lonely here, what would

:31:56.:31:58.

you expect to happen to them? Would you expect them all to be taken by

:31:59.:32:03.

France? You say they will go through the procedure but I'm not sure what

:32:04.:32:08.

happens at the end. We are not sure, maybe Heidi can tell us what's going

:32:09.:32:11.

to happen to the 3000 children currently in the camps and are

:32:12.:32:16.

expected to come to the UK. Clearly there is a responsibility to France

:32:17.:32:18.

and Italy and the other countries where these children are to abide by

:32:19.:32:24.

the same rules that we are abiding by, the UN rules on children and

:32:25.:32:29.

human rights, it is to make sure they put their hands in their

:32:30.:32:32.

pockets and look after them too. There seems to be a shifting of the

:32:33.:32:36.

policy from them that they want to put them in camps and ignore them,

:32:37.:32:40.

why are they being ignored when they have facilities to look after them

:32:41.:32:43.

in France, Italy and the other countries in Europe? This is a point

:32:44.:32:48.

the Prime Minister made. People made the point that it was like the

:32:49.:32:53.

candour transport, helping Jewish children before the Second World War

:32:54.:33:02.

-- the Kinder transport. But it isn't quite like that. Yes, you

:33:03.:33:06.

think it is all Europe, it must be safe. I have visited Calais and

:33:07.:33:13.

Lesbos, as many MPs have, and there is anything but safety there.

:33:14.:33:18.

Economically they are on their knees, places like Greece, not in a

:33:19.:33:22.

state to do this and thousands of people coming every day. It's chaos,

:33:23.:33:26.

they can't cope and there is some pretty nasty stuff happening to

:33:27.:33:30.

children who aren't safeguarded, no one is protecting them which is why

:33:31.:33:35.

I feel we have a responsibility, as every European country has, to work

:33:36.:33:38.

through this and identify the children that each of us can take.

:33:39.:33:43.

Wouldn't it be selfish for the British to say that we have a

:33:44.:33:46.

collective problem, people have arrived here, we should all do our

:33:47.:33:50.

bit rather than just say, France, you have to deal with them all, or

:33:51.:33:55.

Italy and Greece, it's your problem because they landed on your shores?

:33:56.:33:59.

We've never said that we shouldn't be taking any children at all, we

:34:00.:34:05.

have said that the 20,000 figure that the Prime Minister had put out

:34:06.:34:08.

should be the figure that is kept in place. Those children should be

:34:09.:34:13.

taken from the camps because it sends a strong message. It isn't

:34:14.:34:17.

about selfishness either. What we are looking at, even in the

:34:18.:34:22.

constituency that Heidi has, there will be 9000 children in East

:34:23.:34:25.

Cambridgeshire who are without a home tonight. We are short of over

:34:26.:34:32.

8000 foster carers, 8000 children in the foster system, without homes.

:34:33.:34:39.

What we are saying, we are going to take 3000, it is going to cost us

:34:40.:34:43.

100 million a year, but we will have problems housing our own. What I

:34:44.:34:48.

would like to say to Heidi is, yes, bring in children but are you going

:34:49.:34:52.

to have amendments to government policy that says we will double the

:34:53.:34:56.

amount of money for councils to look after the existing children who are

:34:57.:34:59.

homeless tonight? Are you going to put the half a billion that would

:35:00.:35:03.

match that? But we put that, you have ten seconds, sorry. The great

:35:04.:35:12.

British public, offering help, rallying as communities, maybe we

:35:13.:35:15.

can learn something and bring our own children into the foster network

:35:16.:35:16.

too. Thank you for joining us. Now each week on Newsnight

:35:17.:35:19.

during this referendum campaign we've been trying to help

:35:20.:35:21.

you make your decision on how to vote, by offering a little space

:35:22.:35:24.

to some people who are not involved in the campaigns, to tell us

:35:25.:35:28.

about their decision. Tonight, the Scottish billionaire

:35:29.:35:30.

Tom Hunter gives us his On the one hand I'm

:35:31.:35:32.

worried about sovereignty You know, pretty proud of what we're

:35:33.:35:48.

doing here in Britain. And I wouldn't want to give too much

:35:49.:36:01.

power away to some faceless In terms of my other worry,

:36:02.:36:04.

if we left, I think I would be I'd be worried about London's

:36:05.:36:09.

position as being financial I still think there's a long way

:36:10.:36:20.

to go in this debate. I find it really confusing

:36:21.:36:29.

when people of the same political party are ripping each other

:36:30.:36:32.

to shreds with this argument. And it's hard to get to say

:36:33.:36:35.

where are the facts? I think at this point in the debate

:36:36.:36:43.

it's too close to call. I think always in these

:36:44.:36:46.

debates it's quite boring And I think the Leave campaign have

:36:47.:36:51.

got probably more charismatic speakers like Michael Gove and Boris

:36:52.:37:00.

Johnson. They are quite entertaining

:37:01.:37:02.

but frankly, if I want to be Can you imagine, in a quiet evening,

:37:03.:37:04.

sitting at the computer, browsing social media and getting

:37:05.:37:16.

involved in conversations Well from the US, comes

:37:17.:37:19.

an intriguing story of a car salesman from Delaware,

:37:20.:37:25.

Toby Lopez, who did that. But it got to a very serious point,

:37:26.:37:30.

after meeting people he believed were Isis officials online,

:37:31.:37:33.

he ended up trying to negotiate the release of US

:37:34.:37:37.

hostage Kayla Mueller. In doing so he angered the FBI

:37:38.:37:39.

and was arrested and locked up He's now been told he won't have

:37:40.:37:42.

to stand trial, that all charges against him have been dropped,

:37:43.:37:46.

and he's free to tell his story. I began by asking him how he got

:37:47.:37:49.

involved in negotiating What got me involved in that was a

:37:50.:38:03.

relationship that was developed over months, culminating in mean

:38:04.:38:06.

negotiating for a United States hostage. To all of the people

:38:07.:38:14.

criticising me, yeah, I agree, it's not what most people do. Because of

:38:15.:38:19.

my relationships, the tyres I had within that organisation, they

:38:20.:38:26.

wanted to use me to facilitate her release -- ties. In your opinion,

:38:27.:38:30.

what happened to make them suddenly come out in some number and arrest

:38:31.:38:36.

you, take you away, and effectively lock you up for 14 months? That's

:38:37.:38:42.

what happens when you know as much as the United States government and

:38:43.:38:45.

you have e-mails indicating them in the Kayla Mueller hostage

:38:46.:38:50.

negotiation with me. I told the head of the FBI, the supervising agent I

:38:51.:38:56.

was talking to, I told him that these gentlemen know who I am and

:38:57.:39:00.

I've been dealing with them for six months now. You know who I am and

:39:01.:39:06.

who I'm talking to. They said that they didn't want any B I funny

:39:07.:39:10.

business and they said all I'm going to do by telling me to stand down

:39:11.:39:14.

and negotiate with the same people, you are going to be exposed and you

:39:15.:39:20.

will get her killed in the process -- any FBI funny business. It isn't

:39:21.:39:23.

because of what I did, it's because of what I knew. Do you ever think

:39:24.:39:32.

you got in way too deep for a car salesman from Delaware? I think I

:39:33.:39:39.

was in way over my head and the beginning, but at the end, I knew

:39:40.:39:43.

exactly what I was dealing with and I knew what I was doing. Like I

:39:44.:39:49.

said, I had been involved with the FBI followed across -- for other

:39:50.:39:56.

four 's. They are incarcerated joo and it was unpleasant because it was

:39:57.:40:02.

partially jail and partially medically supervised -- for four 's.

:40:03.:40:08.

-- they incarcerated you. What was in Caceres and like? I was put in

:40:09.:40:14.

isolation -- what was incarceration like. I was in there for nearly six

:40:15.:40:20.

months straight at the beginning and they moved me multiple times to

:40:21.:40:25.

facilities, from Philadelphia to New York, to Oklahoma City. They moved

:40:26.:40:31.

me so many times, and they cut my communications down to nothing and

:40:32.:40:39.

there was no justification from them as to why I was put in isolation,

:40:40.:40:43.

thrown in the hole for as long as I was stopped they tried to say that I

:40:44.:40:52.

was delusional and making it up. That's the way for the United States

:40:53.:40:56.

to discredit people. If I had told myself my own story without any

:40:57.:41:00.

factual evidence to back it up I would say that I was delusional. The

:41:01.:41:05.

United States government had this information but they didn't release

:41:06.:41:09.

it to the government doctors because they wanted the finding that I was

:41:10.:41:13.

delusional, to discredit me. They wanted the fact that, found

:41:14.:41:21.

incompetent to stand trial, the government could hold me

:41:22.:41:24.

indefinitely. We live in the United States, not Russia. Looking back at

:41:25.:41:30.

what you were doing, do you think you are at least obsessed, that you

:41:31.:41:34.

went too far? Can you see it from their point of view? Yeah, maybe. I

:41:35.:41:44.

had a passion. Just like Kayla Mueller was passionate about going

:41:45.:41:49.

over there and helping children in that region, she had a passion to do

:41:50.:41:55.

that. Is she insane? No. Thank you for joining us.

:41:56.:41:59.

Election day across the country tomorrow, Kirsty will be here

:42:00.:42:07.

tomorrow evening. Until then, good night.

:42:08.:42:18.

Slowly and surely, the nights are getting a bit less cold. A lovely

:42:19.:42:25.

sunny start,

:42:26.:42:26.

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