19/05/2016 Newsnight

But who or what brought down EgyptAir Flight MS804?

Tonight we'll assess the expert's theories on an aviation disaster.

And we're in France, where a country is coming to terms

A Harris, this could be an act of terrorism is at the forefront of

people in the minds as the investigators pour over every detail

in search of clues. -- Kear in Paris. Also tonight... I think it is

important we emphasise that it is real, it is current, and we are

dealing with it on a daily basis. A new report hammers home that

antibiotics resistance will take us back to

the dark ages of medicine. So what exactly are big pharma

going to do about it? One of the most unlikely political

figures of the 21st century gives The money what's being wasted,

over and over, every year. And did writer and legendary atheist

Christopher Hitchens contemplate A new book about his life has some

controversial revelations. It's hard to remember a world

where aviation disasters didn't automatically prompt speculation

about terrorist acts. Tonight, search and rescue teams

continue to collect wreckage from the EgyptAir flight MS804

in the sea off the Greek And officials say

that the Airbus A320 - en route from Paris to Cairo when it

vanished from radar shortly after midnight -

is more likely to have been brought down by terrorism

than technical fault. The 10 crew and 56 passengers

aboard, including one Briton named today as 40-year-old

geologist Richard Osman, remain missing, while the Egyptian

vice-President has said that what began as a rescue operation

was turning into one Newsnight's Gabriel Gatehouse

is in Paris. This is a city that over the past

year and a bit has experienced and perhaps even come to expect act of

violence carried out or inspired by the group that calls itself Islamic

State. And so when an aeroplane that originated here drops inexplicably

out of the sky in the early hours of this morning, thoughts inevitably

turn in that direction and is now an investigation ongoing here at

Charles de Gaulle airport into whether there was a security breach.

I should emphasise that we do not know what caused MS804 to drop out

of the sky. All we know is that it appears to have done so in the early

hours of the morning. Francois Hollande confirmed that earlier

today. And there is now a search and recovery operation ongoing jointly

between Greek and Egyptian navies in the Aegean Sea, aided by the Royal

Air Force. They are looking for debris. There has been some dispute

and disagreement over whether any of that debris has been found already

but when it is, it will provide vital clues to the investigators

looking to find out what caused this crash. There were six of six people

on board, 56 crew. 56 passengers, rather. Ten crew, of whom three were

Egyptian security officers. Of the passengers, more than half were

Egyptian with 15 French citizens and the citizens of a number of other

nations. We have mentioned one British man, including people from

Canada, Portugal, Kuwait and Iraq. Some of their relatives came here

earlier today looking for answers. We do not need to see the familiar

pictures of anguish at Sheldon Doyle airport. MS804, MH17, MH270. The

flight numbers change but the scene is always the same, people drawn in

disbelief to the place where those they suddenly last embarked on their

final journey. Authorities are not ruling any theory in or out yet. But

in Paris, especially here in Paris, the idea that this could be an act

of terrorism is at the forefront of people's minds as the investigators

pour over every detail in search of clues. EgyptAir flight 804 departed

Paris at 9:11pm local time on Wednesday evening, and three and a

quarter hours later, the pilot spoke to Greek Air Traffic Control.

Everything seemed normal. 11 minutes after that, at 2:37pm Cairo time,

after the plane had entered Egyptian airspace, it disappeared off the

radar. -- 2:37am. Weather conditions were said to be ideal last night.

The aircraft was relatively modern, an Airbus A3 20. So how did it crash

without warning into the Mediterranean? TRANSLATION: The

plane, 10-15 miles inside Egyptian airspace made a 90 degrees turn to

the left at 30,000 feet and then a 360 degrees turn to the right,

descending to 15,000 feet. Then, 360 degrees turn to the right,

picture was lost. A state of emergency is still in force in Paris

after the attacks on the 13th of November last year. Five days after

that, security forces foiled what they said was a plot to attack shall

the goal airport, where today's flight MH804 originated. And then

after Islamic State managed to smuggle a bomb aboard a plane in

Sharm el-Sheikh, bound for Russia last supper, the fear is that

Islamic State could infiltrate European airports, too. -- last

October. A lot of European security experts will be worried about planes

landing from all over the Middle East. Imagine a bomb was put on a

plane in Egypt, which is easier, you then prohibit EgyptAir from flying

in Europe or you need to check every single airliner arriving from an

Arab country. There are 85,000 people who have security clearance

to work at Paris's airports. At the attacks here in November, 70 of them

had clearance revoked by police on the grounds of national security.

Today, a senior industry source told us that a significant number of

those worked in airside catering. Eric is a lawyer who represents ten

of those who had clearance revoked. All of them are accessing Muslims.

He said his clients are the innocent victims of paranoid times. But he

agrees that the airport has a problem.

The bomb on board the theory is still only one among many and even

if it was a bomb, it may not have come aboard here in Paris. It is

possible that the key to this mystery lies somewhere further back

in the story. Yesterday morning, the same aircraft had flown from Eritrea

to Egypt. Then onto Tunisia, and back to Cairo. And from there, to

Paris yesterday afternoon, before taking off on its final, fatal

journey. Earlier today, relatives of the passengers still missing from

flight MS804 made that same journey from Paris to Cairo. They will be

joined by French investigators and technical experts, all of them in

search of answers. Gabriel Gatehouse reporting.

And joining me now is Mark Urban our Diplomatic Editor.

It is the best part of 24 hours since the plane effectively

disappeared. As the list of possible causes narrowed at all? I think it

has somewhat, as facts have emerged. This could be a possible accident,

still. The plane was at 37,000 feet and there is an aerodynamic

phenomenon, the coffin corner, call it what you will, lift is limited at

that altitude. The have been previous cases of planes getting

into uncontrollable stalling. But no distress call, urges a first

important factor. If you start to look at foul play, the shoulder

launched anti-aircraft missiles, we know from the height and the

location that we can rule that out. Accidental engagement by a warship

or a fighter plane, once again that is pretty unlikely but such things

have happened. There is nothing in the right area so we can rule that

out. We end up with the possibility, did someone tried to storm the

cockpit? Germanwings model, or something that was alleged to have

happened on a 1999 EgyptAir flight. We know that there were three

security guards on the planes are once again, one is that they would

have put up a fight or something would have been radioed from the

cockpit. So we end up with this possibility of a bomb. Was it put on

somewhere like Cairo? Either way, whether it was there or it was put

on in Paris, it has very serious invocations. We have a

responsibility when a plane comes in that it leaves the airport safely.

So it does not put Paris in the clear, even of something was put on

somewhere else. Big applications if that turns out to be the case. And

where does the investigation go? The search for debris has many purposes

but once you start to bring in large amounts of debris, you can test them

for explosive residue. That is a key step. People will be looking for the

data recorders and they could be in 2000 metres of water, which will

make a difficult recovery operation. Intelligence services in Egypt and

France will be profiling the passengers, looking for possible

connections, people being open to blackmail or other pressure, through

family or other connections. All of these things will be done. Other

intelligence services will be looking for chapter, possibly on the

basis of that the Israelis and Russians and one or two others seem

to have been briefing this afternoon that they have concluded it was a

terrorist attack. But it is really early to say that with definitive

certainty. Many thanks. Two daughters off school,

parents supposed to be working, childcare a nightmare and a GP

refusing to prescribe the antibiotics which would see

off their throat infections antibiotic medicines -

and somehow fund the extremely 10 million humans a year could be

dying needlessly by 2050. This is the stark warning

at the heart of a Government-backed report into anti-microbial

resistance, led by the economist Lord Jim O'Neill

and published today. Anjana Ahuja has been examining

the implications of When it comes to drug resistant

infections, the future does not look just a grim, but apocalyptic.

Superbugs killing 10 million people each year by 2050, more than cancer.

Routine surgery like hip replacements grinding to a halt,

just when an ageing population needs them. The life-saving drug which has

revolutionised medical science. A crisis in antibiotics threatened to

end a golden year of medicine which started with Alexander Fleming's

discovery of penicillin in the 1920s and led to the belief that every

infection was durable. But with antimicrobial resistance on the rise

of over the antimicrobial resistance on the rise

beginning to look a lot antimicrobial resistance on the rise

past. We are talking about the issues in the future but we are

dealing with this problem now, all the time. We are having to use an

injection and a second antibiotic together because we do not want to

take the risk of treatment failing. Antimicrobial resistance, or AMR

refers to an treatable Antimicrobial resistance, or AMR

forecast to cost the global economy $100 trillion, 100,000 billion

dollars, in decades to come. $100 trillion, 100,000 billion

years ago, David Cameron asked the former Goldman Sachs

years ago, David Cameron asked the AMR could be tackled.

years ago, David Cameron asked the backed by the welcome

years ago, David Cameron asked the published today. It urges doctors

not to over prescribe, suggests a $2 billion global fund to pay for

vaccines and new antibiotics, plus a ban on some antibiotics used in

farming. We hear the global figures, we think

it is something happening in other countries. We need to understand

this is happening in our NHS. We have huge problems with infections,

ward closures, issues to halt the spread of organisms. I'm at one of

the top diseases labs at Imperial College London, which has made

tackling resistance one of its main research projects. One of the things

its researchers are doing is developing new classes of

antibiotics, something that the world desperately needs. That is

picked up in the report. But a careful reading of the report shows

a shift in emphasis, as well as the need to supply new antibiotics. The

world also needs to radically rethink how it uses its old ones.

Bugs such as MRSA and see difficile may dominate headlines, but drug

resistance is also causing huge problems in the field of sexually

transmitted infections. Because it can take days to get a definitive

lab result, doctors will sometimes prescribed powerful antibiotics just

in case. But there might be another way. Here, at St George 's Hospital

in London, in a project funded by the medical research Council, a new

test can detect infections in 30 minutes. That means patients can be

treated swiftly and only with the medicine that they really need. This

machine can reveal the presence of an STI in 30 minutes. We can press

this button and review the result. We can see that this patient has not

got chlamydia detected. The scenario of somebody coming in right now,

being diagnosed with gonorrhoea, right now they would be given a

really big injection, a second antibiotics to treat the gonorrhoea.

Just say that we were able to identify that the patient has a

strain of gonorrhoea which is very, very possible was susceptible to an

old antibiotic, with this diagnostic test, we would be able to identify

that straightaway and give that antibiotic. Firstly, we are not

guessing which antibiotic to use, we know which one to use. Secondly, we

don't have to use the injection, we don't have to use the front line

antibiotics that we might need to use later on. It is sparing new

antibiotics, reusing antibiotics and treating with confidence. That's

important in terms of what we call antibiotic stewardship, using them

responsibly. At some point, our luck will run out

and we will need new antibiotics. The trouble is, drug companies don't

think they are profitable to make, because they need to be prescribed

in the smallest amount is possible to the fewest people possible. There

are simply richer pickings to be had elsewhere. So there are 800 cancer

drugs in the pipeline, compared to just 30 or 40 antibiotics under

development today. Of those 30 to 40, only three are of a class that

is most desperately needed. Joining me now is Dr Virginia Ahuja,

an executive director at the Association of

the British Pharmaceutical Industry, which represents the

UK's pharma industry. Before you put your professional hat

on, how concerned are you, personally? The best thing we have

had today with the report is that we have brought this to the attention

of everyone that is watching this programme, reading the newspaper

today, has been listening to the news. That has been so important to

do. The conversations you were hearing on your piece, they are not

new. We have been talking about these issues. The time. The research

kick... Two years ago, it proceeded a lot of the work that we were

talking about today, it has gone on for years. We have had these

conversations for years. There is no hyperbole? There is a real risk of

the scenario that Jim paints in the report. I think the risk is there,

the risk is clear why we all need to be working together on it. You say

we need to be working together, it is only really your industry that

can address the most urgent part? Much of the report gets to the real

nub of it. There is no point in creating the latest and greatest

antibiotic if we are not making the most of our current antibiotics.

What can we do to prevent infection from going out of control in a

setting? We have all heard about hospital cleaning, but it goes

beyond that, understanding what you, as a father, as a parent, can think

about when you are approaching the use of an antibiotic. I appreciate

that, but it is fair to observe the discovery, the research and

development leads to the discovery of new medicines, and we are

becoming increasingly aware they are essential. I don't think it is

ignorant to suggest the pharmaceutical industry is the only

place where those can be an -- unearthed. This is something that

the industry has been pressing for a while. You mentioned the number of

drugs being developed. 30 or 40, against 800 for cancer? But it is

something that is worth comment 2014, $5 billion of investment in

R It is something we have done over the years, these antibiotics

have come from previous research. Let me draw attention to the fact

that we had a declaration by the industry in January of over 100

companies, 13 associations, committed to advancing the R and

addressing the resistance issue. Let's look at the proposals put

forward by Jim O'Neill, this pay or play scheme, $1 million in place for

a company that brings a new drug to market. It is quite attractive, and

it seems, even by the standards of the pharmaceutical industry, which I

think is the most profitable on the planet, a decent payday? R

incentives are important, something we have been talking about was time.

But let's think about how we get those delivered on the ground. If we

have a new antibiotics, ultimately, it is about making sure in every

country there is an opportunity to think about how to make sure the

antibiotic is going to be made available in practice. I just want

to focus on some conclusive answers that we might get to any course

to focus on some conclusive answers our brief time together. Does the

industry support the proposal? The industry supports

industry support the proposal? The incentives for getting medicines

through. Is this the incentives for getting medicines

incentive? We could have other incentives for getting medicines

options for investing in R In R,

options for investing in R In approach would be better.

options for investing in R In no? You not blindingly with

options for investing in R In answering the question. The question

is talking about two things. There is investment, how we put money into

R, and we have better ways of... You don't like the pay or play

proposal? There is a collaborative approach... Has Jim O'Neill made a

mistake approach... Has Jim O'Neill made a

It's good putting all of these ideas forward, I think the ideas need to

be discussed. We haven't had those conversations, we haven't gone

be discussed. We haven't had those through the costs of the different

approaches. What we have had a lot of experience with, in developing

world, in neglected diseases, of experience with, in developing

have a public partnership of experience with, in developing

R to fruition. Nasri Mac is research and development, and

R to fruition. Nasri Mac is other acronym is about

R to fruition. Nasri Mac is response ability, is there any any

R to fruition. Nasri Mac is work we have been doing in R has

been growing. work we have been doing in R has

investment in a number of areas. I don't think the industry is falling

down on understanding what the role is to supply the best possible

medicines for patient's health and benefits. It is what we need to

done with respect to this report that has come out. What

done with respect to this report is is how we collectively address a

challenge that faces every us. I understand the point

challenge that faces every us. I about collective responsibility, I'm

interested in corporate responsibility... Excuse me, one

moment, profit margins routinely breached the 40% mark. Pfizer made

$22 billion in 2014. It seems, despite a degree of obfuscation, it

seems unless there is major money to be made, the pharmaceutical industry

seems unless there is major money to will watch the planets ever? That

were true, you would not have 34 in the pipeline, you would not have 5

billion spent last year. In an industry worth 400

billion spent last year. In an investments are not

billion spent last year. In an is part of the R pipeline. Compare

it to the private... Let's act is part of the R pipeline. Compare

the government is doing... They are not here for me to ask, you are. I

will put that into perspective. The central proposal, the pay or play

scheme to reward... I would disagree that it is the central proposal...

Let's not get into semantics, a proposal? I think we could talk

about it, but I think other options would be much more effective,

getting the right medicines, in a voluntary collaboration. It means

you have a long-term to deliver on this enormous challenge that we

face. Thank you. Amid all the Referendum-related talk

of enhancing border control and restricting the free movement

of people, you could be forgiven for forgetting that in the event

of an exit vote on June the 23rd the United Kingdom would

still have a land border Quite what that border

between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic would look

like is, at best, unclear. Newsnight's Secunder Kermani has

been considering what post-Leave life might look like

on either side of it. This small river splits the village

of PepsiCo. Since partition, it has divided the Republic of Ireland from

Northern Ireland. The border is basically invisible now. During the

troubles, checkpoints transformed life for residents on both sides.

There would be a few farmers that have grown on both sides of the

border. Stephen's family lives at the border, the British army blew up

the bridge at the edge. It only really a mile in this direction, you

are having to do a journey of ten or 12 miles, which took you out around

over the bow Island in front of us, and left you doing a journey of 35

or 40 minutes to get to a local shop that was a mile away. Do you worry

that something like that might come back if there is a Brexit, Britain

leaves the EU? I don't think we will ever see something as severe as

that, certainly there is a worry there will be customs and things

like that in place. What is going to happen, nobody can tell us. The

border is no longer look like this. But what will they look like in the

future? This side of the bridge is in the Republic of Ireland and

Britain is just a few steps away. Once you are here in Northern

Ireland, if you want to travel further into the mainland UK, there

are no passport controls. The Leave campaign wants to take control of

Britain's borders with the EU, so are we going to see a hard border

that splits community is once again? Some senior campaign managers have

said there should be, but the official line is that nothing will

change. The Common travel area between the Republic of Ireland and

the UK, it is in law, it is protected, there will be no passport

controls. But then you are not taking control of Britain's borders,

you can't stop anybody from big EU slipping through a porous border and

coming to Britain? You do, there is the power, there is the controls

that they can access in the Republic of Ireland. Anybody from the EU can

travel into the Republic of Ireland. But we do have spot checks on both

sides of the border. Will there be more checks, checking on people

coming from Northern Ireland to mainland UK? That would anger, I

imagine, people. We believe it is perfectly operational and will be

sustainable. Border towns thrive on the custom from both countries.

Shops here accept both pounds and euros. But despite what the Leave

campaign say, there is anxiety from many who pass through here on daily

commutes between Dublin and Belfast. Many of us feel Irish and Northern

Irish. I would hate that to be something that would be more

difficult, with the border. Even making the trip to Belfast, they

brought back Mars bars, Spangles, contraceptives. Do you think that if

Britain leaves the EU, we might go back to seeing customs checks? I

don't think they will be bringing contraception any more, that's gone!

I think you could get custom checks, yes. The last border checks were

brought down years ago. Anything vaguely resembling this would be

hugely controversial. We were told that British officials are concerned

that the border is already a back door to the UK. Security sources I

have spoken to say it has been targeted by terrorism suspects and

for illegal immigration. There had been talks predating the referendum

between Britain and Dublin on Visa harmonisation, on improving checks

on those arriving into the Republic of Ireland. I am told those talks

have a new sense of urgency because of the possibility of a Brexit. For

many living and working by the border, like here in Warrenpoint

harbour, the primary concern is the economic impact of leaving the EU.

Even some Leave campaigners say Northern Ireland is a net recipient

of EU funding by ?58 million, much of it agricultural subsidies, though

they still argue the UK would be better off out overall. 37% of

Northern Irish exports go to the Republic of Ireland. 22% go to the

rest of the EU. Ireland will also be affected. 17.5% of their exports go

to the UK. 40% of the trade of the sport, both import and export, comes

from all goes to the Republic of Ireland. But, to be quite honest, if

there were difficulties with border controls and paperweight, customs, I

am quite sure that trade would disappear from here and go to ports

in the Republic, where there would not be those controls. In County

Tyrone, another border region, many farmers receive payments from the EU

Qatar Common agricultural policy. Roger and Elaine run a more unusual

farm, breeding alpacas. You got very confused cows and alpacas, having

not seen cows, they didn't know what the animals were. Last year, they

make most sales south of the border. They are still yet to make up their

mind which way to vote. If we were out of the EU, it might give us the

opportunity, as part of the UK, to have a greater say in being able to

say, we are unique here, things need to be put in place that need to

facilitate as, being able to access things, just as much as those in

inland UK. According to the polls, Northern Irish voters are the most

strongly pro-remain in the country. But according to one poll, when you

break the vote down, nationalist voters are almost all EU, but a

majority of unionists are pro-leave. A lot of work has been done

reconciling communities in Northern Ireland, much of it in the border

regions has been funded by the EU, like this multi-million pounds

complex which brings different groups together. But there are fears

leaving the EU could destabilise the region's delicate balance. We are 30

years out of conflict, the country has come on leaps and bounds. There

is a generation that knows nothing about the troubles except what they

read about the troubles except what they

parents have told them. They don't understand it. Let's look

parents have told them. They don't generations of people. Why burden

them with a border again? We have been through all of this. We don't

want it, we've had enough borders, we don't want any more. This is the

UK's only land border with the rest of the EU. For many in Westminster,

whether to leave or remain is an abstract question, few will be as

deeply affected us those living here.

He was the sceptic's sceptic, prominent even among

the world's most passionate and persuasive atheists.

But a new book published in America posits the possibility

that the author and polemicist Christopher Hitchens not only

contemplated Christianity as his 2011 death from cancer

of the oesophagus approached but also flirted with faith itself.

However, friends and confidantes of Hitchens, including his widow,

are deeply unhappy at even the slightest aspersion being cast

In a moment, we'll speak to one of those friends but I'm joined now

The Faith of Christopher Hitchens: The Restless Soul of

Even the most cursory reading of Christopher Hitchens' work

establishes a man who did not believe he had a soul. How could it

possibly have been restless? The title makes it very clear that what

I am getting at with this is not that he had faith in God but rather

that, as the title makes clear, I think the man was an atheist but I

am asking the question, what was his faith in? The tumblers do not line

up with the atheist key, or the God key, but he was defined by a lot

more than his atheism. Of course it was, and I will ask the same

question again, how could a man who did not believe he had a soul have

had a restless soul? In a debate with Christopher, he spoke of a soul

and I made sure to point this out. What did he say? He said that

Christianity continued to inflict crimes against the body and the

soul. And I pointed out that from an atheist point of view, there is no

soul. But Christians would believe that there was. I do not think

trying to unpick the workings of Christopher Hitchens' brains is

within the remit of either of us. It is a deliberately provocative title,

you are attempting to take a man famous throughout the world for his

robust approach to atheism and his championing of it, and you are

possibly attempting to flog a few books off the back of it. That is

simply not true, James. And it is clear from your question that you

have not read the book. The book is a story about friendship, a story

about friendship between two man of very different world views. Here I

am, an evangelical Christian and Christopher Hitchens, a Molotov

cocktail tossing atheist. Onstage, the two of us could enjoy a warm

friendship that culminated in two Lengthy road trips, one from his

home in DC to mine, and the other through Yellowstone National Park,

where we studied the gospel together. You read a book together.

His friends say that you hardly knew him. Well, his friends clearly do

not know the truth of it. I don't know how many friends Christopher

took 13 hour car trips with, but he did two Lengthy road trips with me

and spoke very warmly publicly of our friendship. This is an film,

James. I am not inventing anything here. You bring his atheism into

question, you posit the notion of contemplating Christianity, and your

evidence is the number of hours you spend together in a car? No, that is

not the evidence. The evidence is a great deal more than that. In fact,

I think you are deliberately mischaracterising the book. What I

say in the book is that Christopher was contemplating making a number

of, if I could put it this way, edits to his life late in his life.

Exactly what he would convert to was not clear. He spoke of a Protestant

atheism, which was something he found attractive. Would he have

converted to DSM? He was deeply affected by Judaism, and the

discovery late in life that he was Jewish on his mother side. It is not

clear exactly what kind of change you would have made but after 2001,

he made a very serious defection from the left politically. And I am

simply suggesting that this was a man of a great deal more complexity

than you would suggest. Of course. How long before his death did you

last see? I saw him 40 months before his death and that is very

important. -- 14 months. Because the suggestion I am claiming a deathbed

conversion is absurd. First of all, the book is not about that and

secondly, I was not there. And nobody suggested it was. It was

merely the tone of your intimacy I was seeking to establish. We are

joined by Lawrence Krauss, an atheist and close friend of

Christopher Hitchens. He refused to discuss directly with Larry Thompson

the contents of this book. -- Larry Taunton. To begin with I want to ask

you why your feelings run so deeply on this and have you been mollified

by what you have heard? This is a man who is clearly trying to use

Christopher Hitchens to take a relatively unknown individual and

make money of Christopher's name. I will not participate with that, by

having a conversation with something I am not willing to other

conversation with. Is it possible that he was auditing some of his

belief in the last years of his life? Firstly, let's talk about

friendship because I had a conversation with Christopher

Hitchens' would all about this. She confirmed that Christopher was paid

to spend time with this man. I have to say that none of his friends paid

Christopher to spend time with him. That is the difference between a

real friend and a paid associate. Christopher was paid to debate with

this gentleman. The other thing is that Christopher was incredibly, in

spite of the fact that he was seen as a bulldog on stage, in private he

was incredibly civil with individuals and could have

wonderful, polite conversations with people he desperately disagreed

with. I know Justice Scully are used to be a visitor in his house. --

Justice Scolia. The fact that he is confusing friendship with civility

means he did not know this man at all. What did his widow make of the

book? She is disgusted by it and believes it was somebody taking the

opportunity to write his coat-tails. So many things are ridiculous about

the notion. First of all, atheism is not a belief system. It is a

recognition that you do not accept the existence of God without

evidence. As he would've said, extraordinary claims require

extraordinary evidence and the claim that after 13.8 billion years, God

would suddenly weighed in on this planet -- weight on this planet for

hominis to develop and then decided to reveal himself to illiterate iron

age peasants after millions of years, is so ridiculous that it

would require extraordinary evidence. Moreover, if you were

converting, what would you convert to? There were 1000 religions, and

certainly Christianity was not one of Christopher's favourites. He said

the new Testament was more evil than the old and in particular, as

Richard Dawkins and I have pointed out, no one talks more about how the

G7. -- hell then Jesus. He referred to God as a Saddam Hussein in the

sky. The notion that they would be sympathetic to that kind of

silliness is just ridiculous. Now, you may have been

following our My Decision mini-series in the run up to the EU

referendum - offering a little space to some well-known faces

who are not going to see out Tonight, the thoughts of someone

Gordon Brown described as a 'bigoted woman',

Gillian Duffy. Well, I think the European Union has

just got far too large for itself. The money what's being wasted,

over and over, every year, Well, it's not billions,

it's probably trillions now. We're giving all the time,

we always put our money in, but we never seem to get

anything back to help us. "I tried to read it and I thought

I can't be reading this." She said, I put a stamp on it

and just put, "David Cameron,

10 Downing Street." And I read in the paper that other

people had sent it back. Why was he allowed to spend

?9 million on a leaflet? I don't think it will

change our life at all. He said the rich will still be rich,

whether we come out or we stay in. So that means we're going to still

be the same anyhow, aren't we? But I'm frightened of losing

our identity as well. That's what I'm frightened

of, an' all. But we'll never get England

back to how it was. But I love being English,

and I don't want to be a European. And that is all we have time for.

Emily is in the chair tomorrow. Good night.

Good evening. Thursday brought some sunshine but many places had cloud

and outbreaks of rain.