21/06/2016 Newsnight


21/06/2016

Newsnight is in the Wembley spin room for post-debate analysis, as well as on the doorsteps. Plus the Turkish prime minister's chief adviser.


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Transcript


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Well, the great debate is finished and we had it all. Blue on blue, red

:00:09.:00:17.

on red, mayor on mayor. We are in the Wembley spin room with everybody

:00:18.:00:22.

declaring victory, trying to work out who has won an advantage in the

:00:23.:00:24.

EU endgame. They began by telling us

:00:25.:00:26.

they were going to have a positive and patriotic case, and they are

:00:27.:00:32.

back to Project Fear within moments. You might start off with platitudes,

:00:33.:00:35.

saying how wonderful immigration is. But your campaign hasn't

:00:36.:00:37.

been Project Fear, it's been Project Hate as far

:00:38.:00:39.

as immigration is concerned. From big stadium events

:00:40.:00:41.

to the most intimate. Hello, I am from vote Leave. I will

:00:42.:01:01.

be voting Leave. Great. All the people from Europe are taking our

:01:02.:01:02.

jobs. vote is chased down in the last

:01:03.:01:03.

hours of this tightest With just a day to go,

:01:04.:01:09.

we've banished the politicians, in favour of some of our most

:01:10.:01:12.

thoughtful public figures each of whom has passionate views

:01:13.:01:15.

on the EU: Howard Jacobson and Jack Monroe, Dreda Say Mitchell,

:01:16.:01:17.

and the historian Robert Tombs - they'll be discussing what this

:01:18.:01:20.

referendum, and the conduct of it, And we hear from Turkey,

:01:21.:01:23.

whose ambitions to join the EU have been used by those

:01:24.:01:26.

who want to Brexit as a stick to hit the Remainers

:01:27.:01:29.

with, and in the debate President Erdogan's chief advisor

:01:30.:01:31.

is here to hit back. Good evening from the spin

:01:32.:01:38.

room at Wembley Arena. The last big debate of this fraught

:01:39.:01:43.

referendum campaign has finished. And do these kind of debates

:01:44.:01:48.

really influence people Whatever the case, in such a tight

:01:49.:01:56.

campaign, on such a momentous issue, Joining me in a moment we'll explore

:01:57.:02:02.

the arguments made tonight with representatives from both

:02:03.:02:07.

sides, but first here's David Grossman with the key

:02:08.:02:09.

moments from the debate. Wembley Arena is where

:02:10.:02:18.

you can often see veteran Wembley Arena is where you can often

:02:19.:02:22.

see veteran bands who are, shall we say, not in their first

:02:23.:02:25.

bloom The audiences come to hear

:02:26.:02:27.

their greatest hits, That, too, is the job

:02:28.:02:30.

of tonight's politicians. Veterans of this

:02:31.:02:33.

long, long campaign. It is quite simply too close

:02:34.:02:36.

to polling day for them to Instead we've heard some

:02:37.:02:39.

very familiar numbers We are stronger, safer

:02:40.:02:43.

and better off in Europe. After the opening statements

:02:44.:02:55.

there were questions from the 6000 strong

:02:56.:02:59.

audience, picked to be half If we leave the EU, will this be

:03:00.:03:03.

the beginning of a slippery slope towards weaker employment and social

:03:04.:03:11.

rights in the UK? Thank you very much

:03:12.:03:18.

for your question. And the truth is, UK governments

:03:19.:03:24.

have led the way in providing good rights for workers,

:03:25.:03:29.

even before the European Union came It's been governments

:03:30.:03:32.

of all parties that have created minimum wage legislation,

:03:33.:03:42.

now a national living wage, shared parental leave, childfree tax care,

:03:43.:03:46.

tax free childcare and it is this country that is protecting

:03:47.:03:51.

worker's rights. We do not need an unelected,

:03:52.:03:56.

bureaucratic, European leaders who none of us can even name,

:03:57.:04:01.

let alone who any of us voted for, to tell us what our

:04:02.:04:05.

workers' rights should be. We hear a lot about holidays,

:04:06.:04:07.

but when the working time directive came in,

:04:08.:04:11.

two million people in Britain got Mainly women and

:04:12.:04:14.

mainly young people. Do you trust them, can they promise

:04:15.:04:23.

us today because I've heard a lot from some of these leading

:04:24.:04:26.

light in the Leave campaign and what they plan to do with

:04:27.:04:30.

employment rights. Can you promise us today that

:04:31.:04:33.

you will protect each and every We already have that,

:04:34.:04:36.

replied Boris Johnson. From the economy, the question

:04:37.:04:40.

moved on to immigration. My family and I have had first-hand

:04:41.:04:43.

experience How would it manage

:04:44.:04:45.

if we left the EU, given the UK's inability to train and retain

:04:46.:04:51.

sufficient doctors and nurses? I think the first thing we should do

:04:52.:04:57.

tonight in a discussion about immigration is celebrate

:04:58.:05:06.

immigrants and immigration and Because my family, my family has

:05:07.:05:08.

benefited massively from immigration, and so I know have

:05:09.:05:22.

millions of people watching tonight. The crucial thing is to

:05:23.:05:25.

look in an informed way Look at the numbers,

:05:26.:05:27.

look at the pressure that is large-scale, uncontrolled

:05:28.:05:33.

immigration is causing You don't fund schools and hospitals

:05:34.:05:36.

and you don't control And that is what leaving

:05:37.:05:40.

the EU would do. The final part of the debate

:05:41.:05:45.

was on sovereignty, Britain's relationship with

:05:46.:05:47.

the European Union. If we vote to remain

:05:48.:05:53.

on Thursday, how can we be sure in another 40 years, we won't find

:05:54.:05:55.

ourselves in a United Britain is a sovereign,

:05:56.:05:58.

independent country We retain control over our defence,

:05:59.:06:12.

over the pound, over interest rates, what we do

:06:13.:06:18.

in our schools, hospitals and public I just don't accept there

:06:19.:06:21.

is a trade-off between trade and I think democracy is

:06:22.:06:25.

enormously important. And finally by sort

:06:26.:06:31.

of an encore, the closing I know that the EU isn't perfect,

:06:32.:06:34.

but the benefits far And the Britain I know,

:06:35.:06:39.

the Britain that I love works with its friends

:06:40.:06:44.

and neighbours. They say we have no choice,

:06:45.:06:46.

but to bow down to Brussels. We say, they are woefully

:06:47.:06:58.

underestimating this country and With perhaps the strangest

:06:59.:07:00.

one night only gig in Wembley Arena's long history now

:07:01.:07:13.

over, we are now just hours away from polling day and we will find

:07:14.:07:16.

out which of these Joining me now is our political

:07:17.:07:19.

editor Nick Watt, Nick - Is it possible to say if there were

:07:20.:07:36.

winners and losers? This room is buzzing with talk of Ruth Davidson

:07:37.:07:40.

who emerged from something of an unknown star to many here. In

:07:41.:07:45.

personal terms it was a pretty standout performance from the leader

:07:46.:07:48.

of the Scottish Conservatives. I was speaking to her friend this

:07:49.:07:51.

afternoon, who said she could not wait to get stuck into Boris

:07:52.:07:56.

Johnson, and boy, did she. It is important to say she had a head

:07:57.:07:59.

start, she didn't live through the Scottish referendum and was on the

:08:00.:08:02.

winning side, so has lots of practice in these sorts of debates.

:08:03.:08:06.

At their use or somebody who doesn't really sound like a conservative,

:08:07.:08:12.

and the Remain side thinks she connects. They put them on the panel

:08:13.:08:20.

because they believe this referendum will be won or lost in the Labour

:08:21.:08:23.

heartlands and that was the message that they needed to get out to mind.

:08:24.:08:28.

But it is important to say I think this debate basically told us where

:08:29.:08:32.

this referendum is. It was symbolic of that. It's pretty evenly matched.

:08:33.:08:35.

Whilst everyone is excited about Ruth Davidson, the vote leave camp

:08:36.:08:40.

believe they did well in getting their fundamental message, take back

:08:41.:08:45.

control. Journalists may sneer, every sentence ended with take back

:08:46.:08:50.

control. But they are saying on these three core messages,

:08:51.:08:53.

immigration, the economy and Britain's relationship with the EU,

:08:54.:08:58.

people are hearing from vote Leave, vote for us and you take back

:08:59.:09:02.

control so they are quite pleased. You have a sense of the choreography

:09:03.:09:07.

of what might happen after the polls close? There is great excitement

:09:08.:09:12.

among the vote Leave camp, spinning like mad in the room behind us. What

:09:13.:09:17.

I understand is the moment the polls close the tone amongst vote Leave

:09:18.:09:21.

Tories will completely change. A letter will be published, signed by

:09:22.:09:25.

most of those Tory Brexit supporters saying the Prime Minister should

:09:26.:09:29.

stay on regardless of the result. If all the Tory vote Leave supporters

:09:30.:09:33.

do not sign a letter calling for him to go then he will not go. What will

:09:34.:09:38.

be interesting is that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove will have the sort

:09:39.:09:42.

of low-key response in the initial hours but when the result is

:09:43.:09:45.

declared in Manchester, the first voice you will hear from vote Leave

:09:46.:09:49.

will be the Labour chair of that campaign. She will make either a

:09:50.:09:54.

victory or a concession speech. Then you will not hear from Boris Johnson

:09:55.:09:58.

and Michael Gove until the Prime Minister has responded. And if the

:09:59.:10:02.

Prime Minister has lost this referendum, they will wait to hear

:10:03.:10:06.

what he says. There is a clear message coming out, the Prime

:10:07.:10:10.

Minister would have two except the vote Leave demand that the Prime

:10:11.:10:14.

Minister delays triggering article 50, that is the mechanism to take

:10:15.:10:19.

the UK out of the EU. One person said if the Prime Minister carries

:10:20.:10:22.

on with his plan to trigger that straightaway he would be thrown into

:10:23.:10:26.

the river, and you may well see some of these people leaving the Cabinet.

:10:27.:10:31.

Bit of a debate in vote Leave, some are saying we've got to have our

:10:32.:10:36.

mandate introduced, out of the EU, out of the single market. Others are

:10:37.:10:41.

saying maybe you could negotiate any easier association status. The

:10:42.:10:42.

mechanics are fascinating. Well arguably what happens

:10:43.:10:45.

here in the spin room is just as important as what happened

:10:46.:10:48.

earlier in the arena across the road - it's here where spin doctors

:10:49.:10:53.

and politicians try to bend the ears of journalists to convince them

:10:54.:10:56.

that their side won the day. Joining me now is the Energy

:10:57.:11:03.

Secretary and Remain Nice of you to come in. There was

:11:04.:11:18.

some thought a big gaping hole where the Prime Minister should have been?

:11:19.:11:20.

I didn't quite understand that comment. I was here at the debate

:11:21.:11:25.

and what I heard was emptiness from the vote Leave campaign, I heard no

:11:26.:11:30.

plan. Two days before this momentous decision and they were pressed

:11:31.:11:33.

relentlessly on what their plan was and we heard absolutely nothing.

:11:34.:11:37.

What was interesting, those from the vote remain side were very positive

:11:38.:11:43.

in their selling of the immigration message, and very passionate about

:11:44.:11:47.

it. It was something we hadn't heard. We'd heard a slightly

:11:48.:11:52.

apologetic line on immigration, targets missed, certainly from the

:11:53.:11:55.

Conservatives in the race so far. I think they were much rancour about

:11:56.:11:59.

immigration than the Leave campaign. They did say they know it is

:12:00.:12:04.

accommodated business but they rightly talked about the huge

:12:05.:12:07.

benefits we get from immigration as well. What I thought was a really

:12:08.:12:13.

revealing moment. Should it have come earlier? To be able to stand

:12:14.:12:17.

there and say don't knock immigration, it is doing great

:12:18.:12:20.

things. That is part of what we have been saying all along. When the vote

:12:21.:12:25.

Leave campaign were challenged on immigration there was a slight pause

:12:26.:12:28.

and shock, because they have been saying one thing to one group and

:12:29.:12:32.

another to another group. Some immigrants think their communities

:12:33.:12:35.

are going to grow, something they will get less, and that was revealed

:12:36.:12:39.

when they couldn't give a number and couldn't even say whether it would

:12:40.:12:43.

go up or down. This whole emphasis they have put on immigration is like

:12:44.:12:46.

the rest of their plan, there is no thought about how to deliver its.

:12:47.:12:50.

Some would say you've had the same problem when it comes to Turkey,

:12:51.:12:54.

sending out to messages. We've heard the Chancellor, David Cameron say

:12:55.:12:57.

it's not going to happen, it's simply not on the cards, not in my

:12:58.:13:01.

lifetime. We heard the chief adviser to the Turkish president say he was

:13:02.:13:05.

flabbergasted that Turkey will not be joining you, he said he thought

:13:06.:13:10.

Cameron was their chief supporter of membership. We almost this is a red

:13:11.:13:15.

herring, something that has been ruthlessly used. Are Turkey wrong?

:13:16.:13:20.

Bien Karo website says Turkey is in plans to join the EU. We have always

:13:21.:13:26.

said it will be 34 different chapters and on the current rate it

:13:27.:13:29.

could be by the end of the next century. You haven't managed to shut

:13:30.:13:33.

this down. We have to look at it and be clear what the Leave campaign are

:13:34.:13:38.

doing. As Sadiq Khan show, they've been sending out misleading leaflets

:13:39.:13:41.

talking about Turkey, mentioning only a number of countries, Turkey,

:13:42.:13:46.

Iraq, Iran. Sadiq Khan was right when he said they have elements in

:13:47.:13:49.

their campaign which is Project eight and they need to be much more

:13:50.:13:53.

careful about that. You have been accused of project fear. I wonder

:13:54.:13:57.

whether you go back over falling house prices, tax rises, emergency

:13:58.:14:01.

austerity budget, these prophecies of doom. You could have chosen away

:14:02.:14:09.

which was the sunlit uplands. You could have had making the campaign

:14:10.:14:14.

nicer place. I think it's absolutely right to talk about the benefits we

:14:15.:14:17.

have in the European Union which we have been doing. I was very pleased

:14:18.:14:21.

to hear Sadiq Khan mention climate change for the first time. The fact

:14:22.:14:26.

is on Thursday this decision is huge and the impact on the economy and to

:14:27.:14:31.

people's everyday lives, to their families, to the jobs, Frances

:14:32.:14:34.

O'Grady made that point very clearly. The Leave campaign are

:14:35.:14:38.

reckless with people's jobs. It is irresponsible and it's a leap into

:14:39.:14:39.

the dark. Thank you very much Well on Newsnight, we usually

:14:40.:14:44.

like to have people from both sides debating each other but due

:14:45.:14:49.

to a strict edict from No.10 barring 'blue on blue' discussions that has

:14:50.:14:52.

held to the very end of this campaign, we'll dismiss Amber Rudd

:14:53.:14:55.

now to be joined by her fellow Conservative minister and Leave

:14:56.:15:02.

campaigner Dominic Raab. What about this project hates,

:15:03.:15:13.

project fear becoming Project hate? I think they have doubled down on

:15:14.:15:16.

the scaremongering and the negativity. The standout thing for

:15:17.:15:22.

me, was Sadiq Khan, telling us how scared he is. On the contract

:15:23.:15:29.

inside, Boris Johnson saying Thursday's Independence Day, the

:15:30.:15:32.

optimistic message and the confidence that we want people to

:15:33.:15:39.

turn out and vote. What happened to the 350 million figure, I didn't

:15:40.:15:44.

hear that at all to night? I think it slipped in in various areas. I

:15:45.:15:51.

use it all the time, I can understand why people think 350

:15:52.:15:56.

million is a gross figure. When you get paid your salary by the BBC, I

:15:57.:16:02.

shudder to think how big it is. There was no mention of 350. I

:16:03.:16:08.

wonder if there is a quiet acknowledgement you overplayed your

:16:09.:16:10.

hand on that number and it has been ditched. There was a lot of talk

:16:11.:16:17.

about taking back control. The annual dividend. Taking back control

:16:18.:16:24.

is not the same as 350 being pulled out as a lie at times. 350 million

:16:25.:16:32.

is our gross contribution to the EU. There is no doubt about that. If

:16:33.:16:38.

they are so confident about it, why have we started getting different

:16:39.:16:42.

figures in the last week. Why did we not hear it at all to night if you

:16:43.:16:46.

are so confident? We have always talked about the gross and net. Once

:16:47.:16:54.

we leave the EU, we get annually ten billion. The reason why those

:16:55.:17:00.

figures are important, one is the amount we sent to Brussels and don't

:17:01.:17:04.

see back. The other is the amount of descent to Brussels and they spend

:17:05.:17:09.

on our behalf. We want it all back. You need people to explain the

:17:10.:17:12.

difference between the net and the game. I think they have got it by

:17:13.:17:20.

now. They need an expert voice. When you get your pay cheque every month,

:17:21.:17:23.

you have your salary and then your take-home. I will ask you a

:17:24.:17:29.

different thing, your campaign has, in the words of Michael Gove,

:17:30.:17:33.

ditched the words of experts? We have had economists, Michael

:17:34.:17:39.

Burridge has done important work on white freed up from the EU... You

:17:40.:17:46.

are still an expert fan? A lot of people on your side saying, we are

:17:47.:17:50.

done with experts, we don't believe them. I don't think lining up the

:17:51.:17:53.

establishment and saying we have a roll call of experts on our side. We

:17:54.:18:00.

can point to Sir Richard Dearlove, point to heads of the

:18:01.:18:02.

counterterrorism branch at the net police who are on our side. We have

:18:03.:18:11.

Sir Michael Rose, but that is not what people call about, a roll call

:18:12.:18:16.

of names, it is about the evidence. It is the passion and the optimism

:18:17.:18:20.

and what came out of this debate tonight, it is clearly on the side

:18:21.:18:26.

of Leave. As you can see, there is still a few hurdles going on beehive

:18:27.:18:32.

to me. This is when some of the politicians who were not in the

:18:33.:18:36.

debate, they come and talk us through what they thing happened.

:18:37.:18:41.

There is the pitter patter of tiny deadlines being written. Who knows,

:18:42.:18:46.

at this stage, there are that many undecided minds in this country. If

:18:47.:18:51.

there are, it is all to play for. We have two days.

:18:52.:18:53.

Well, one of the biggest issues of the referendum campaign has been

:18:54.:19:00.

It was raised as an issue in the BBC debate tonight.

:19:01.:19:05.

Those who want to Brexit have brandished possible Turkish

:19:06.:19:08.

membership of the EU as a reason to leave,

:19:09.:19:10.

with claims that millions of Turks could migrate to the UK,

:19:11.:19:13.

putting strains on communities and public services.

:19:14.:19:15.

Those who want Remain have been at pains to stress that there is NO

:19:16.:19:19.

chance of Turkey joining the EU in the near future.

:19:20.:19:21.

David Cameron himself has said they won't join until the year 3000.

:19:22.:19:25.

Earlier I spoke to Ilnur Cevik, the chief advisor

:19:26.:19:26.

I began by asking him what he made of that claim by the Prime Minister.

:19:27.:19:31.

We thought that Mr Cameron was our chief supporter for our quest

:19:32.:19:41.

Turks felt the British were the driving force

:19:42.:19:48.

behind our EU membership and that they were supporting

:19:49.:19:51.

But the way Mr Cameron put it, he didn't believe anything,

:19:52.:19:59.

apparently, in our full membership and he was only deceiving us.

:20:00.:20:04.

While, the others at least were very frank, they said we don't want

:20:05.:20:10.

The Germans said we will offer you another kind of partnership.

:20:11.:20:17.

But the way Mr Cameron put it, we feel really, really taken in.

:20:18.:20:24.

Because the way he's putting it, he says, they were never going to go

:20:25.:20:31.

in anyway and we just said we will go along with them.

:20:32.:20:34.

That kind of attitude really is deeply hurting the Turks.

:20:35.:20:40.

What do you think of David Cameron's position now, having said he wanted

:20:41.:20:45.

you in and now having said he sees little prospect of it?

:20:46.:20:54.

As I said, we still feel he was taking us for a ride.

:20:55.:20:57.

This kind of attitude is very, very insincere.

:20:58.:21:05.

We felt that when we needed him, he was going to be there.

:21:06.:21:08.

But now we feel that he was just saying, let me toy around with them,

:21:09.:21:13.

But let's not be the bad guys to tell them they won't get in.

:21:14.:21:21.

Do you believe in the David Cameron that wants you to join,

:21:22.:21:25.

or do you believe in the David Cameron that

:21:26.:21:27.

doesn't want you to join, which is it?

:21:28.:21:29.

Well, to be frank, the way he's putting it, we don't think

:21:30.:21:33.

The Leave campaign says that countries should be able

:21:34.:21:42.

to control their borders, because mass migration puts a huge

:21:43.:21:46.

strain on social services, health services, education services,

:21:47.:21:49.

Britain is already controlling its borders.

:21:50.:21:54.

Britain's borders are not uncontrollable.

:21:55.:21:57.

There is a Visa restriction for Turks in Britain.

:21:58.:22:04.

Even if the European Union lifted Turkey's Visa restrictions

:22:05.:22:09.

through the Schengen agreement, still there is a British Visa,

:22:10.:22:13.

so how can Turks enter Britain while the current Visa

:22:14.:22:16.

The Leave campaign say one of their arguments

:22:17.:22:22.

against Turkey joining, is because your crime rate is very

:22:23.:22:28.

high, your level of gun ownership is very high and they say,

:22:29.:22:31.

why should we give Turkey access to Britain in those circumstances?

:22:32.:22:38.

Secondly, there's no extraordinary situation in this country

:22:39.:22:48.

that we would export anything to Britain.

:22:49.:22:51.

But, besides that, who's going to come to Britain?

:22:52.:22:54.

Whatever exists in Britain, also exists in Turkey.

:22:55.:23:03.

We're not going to go there just because you produce Cadbury's

:23:04.:23:06.

chocolate and Maltesers, for god's sake.

:23:07.:23:10.

Do you think Britain should leave the EU?

:23:11.:23:14.

That's a choice for the British people.

:23:15.:23:19.

If they want to leave the European Union, they should.

:23:20.:23:23.

But they should not use us as an alibi.

:23:24.:23:26.

They should really deal with the nitty-gritty on why

:23:27.:23:41.

they should be leaving and they should not use us

:23:42.:23:43.

Mr Cevik, thank you very much indeed.

:23:44.:23:46.

Now, we bring you the antidote to tonight's stadium debate -

:23:47.:23:51.

the decisions made quietly by people talking amongst themselves

:23:52.:23:57.

in their own homes, discussing the issues in the pub

:23:58.:23:59.

Katie Razzall has been listening, and watching, as campaigners

:24:00.:24:02.

doggedly follow after every vote in a referendum which looks like

:24:03.:24:05.

With two days to go, we set up in one of London's Royal horrors to try

:24:06.:24:25.

to ascertain what is driving decision-making in the EU vote. You

:24:26.:24:29.

can make a lot of new friends with some garden furniture, a bit of

:24:30.:24:37.

linen, posters and a selfie stick. Because of him. You don't like David

:24:38.:24:45.

Cameron? Which one do you prefer? That one. Which one do you want to

:24:46.:24:54.

pick? Will you hold that? The question is straightforward, it

:24:55.:24:57.

should we be in or out of the EU. But that question has apparently

:24:58.:25:01.

split Britain down the middle. Which side do you trust? That is what we

:25:02.:25:11.

as the people of Kingston upon Thames. How are you making the

:25:12.:25:17.

decision? Who do you trust? I am an arrogant old man, I do what I want.

:25:18.:25:25.

My dad did not fight in the war for this. How do you decide what is a

:25:26.:25:29.

fact and what isn't? You listen carefully to what people are saying

:25:30.:25:34.

and dismiss most of it. Even people like the governor of the Bank of

:25:35.:25:41.

England? Well, he is Canadian, isn't he. Barack Obama came in and

:25:42.:25:45.

expressed an opinion. And they know nothing. So you have been trusting

:25:46.:25:53.

experts on the Remain side? Yes. If you have 90% plus of experts telling

:25:54.:25:59.

you it makes sense to stay, then they know what they are talking

:26:00.:26:06.

about. The polls are so close, every moment counts. We asked people on

:26:07.:26:11.

both sides to wear a camera today and record the reaction. On the

:26:12.:26:14.

streets of central London, this Leave campaigner got a mixed

:26:15.:26:19.

reaction. Hello, are you going to vote? Are you going to vote? No. Why

:26:20.:26:27.

not? Because we will miss out on so much. What will you miss out on?

:26:28.:26:37.

Please. Out, great. It isn't easy. I haven't decide. But I think we will

:26:38.:26:43.

remain in. There are still those whose minds he will not change.

:26:44.:26:53.

Hello. I am from vote Leave. I have sent my vote by post. Who did you

:26:54.:27:01.

vote for? The opposite. In this day and age, a little country going on

:27:02.:27:06.

it's own is not feasible. I think it is better for the younger people.

:27:07.:27:11.

What about tampon tax? I don't know about that. Do you know which way

:27:12.:27:16.

you are voting... In north London, an area which should sit firmly in

:27:17.:27:22.

the Remain, Samp Ovie is still finding people who are voting

:27:23.:27:27.

Brexit. It looks like this is going to the wire. Do you know which way

:27:28.:27:31.

you are voting? I can tell you explicitly, out, out, out. Stay out

:27:32.:27:38.

and wish we had never come in. Have you decided which way you will vote?

:27:39.:27:48.

Yes. Yes. Are you eligible to vote. Yes. What swayed you in favour of

:27:49.:27:56.

staying in? It is the power and the money. Can you chat about the

:27:57.:28:03.

referendum. I am voting out. Do you know which way you are voting? I am

:28:04.:28:10.

in. The Visa, having to go abroad, the issue of getting new visas. The

:28:11.:28:15.

uncertainty of people being taxed more. Do you know which way you are

:28:16.:28:23.

voting in the referendum? Out. Why are you voting out? Hopefully there

:28:24.:28:28.

will be more jobs for British people and look around you, where we are

:28:29.:28:33.

standing now, you point to me ten richest people. For weeks and

:28:34.:28:40.

months, the arguments have raged. At Kingston College, how are these

:28:41.:28:43.

staff and students making up their minds? Have these people down here

:28:44.:28:49.

influenced how you will vote? They are like a rough guide to people

:28:50.:28:55.

making their decision. You take a little bit from everyone. It has

:28:56.:29:00.

become a popularity contest. If we bowed out, there will be billions of

:29:01.:29:05.

immigrants every week falling over our borders. If we leave, we will be

:29:06.:29:09.

in a massive recession. It is scaremongering. It should be a

:29:10.:29:15.

personal decision. Even though you should pay attention to the

:29:16.:29:19.

statistics. Have you trusted anyone in this? Not really. I don't really

:29:20.:29:29.

trust the politicians. And the experts or just the politicians?

:29:30.:29:35.

They are all much of a muchness, in each other's pockets. If that is the

:29:36.:29:41.

case, how will you decide? Speak to my dad. You trust him? I trust him.

:29:42.:29:50.

Back on the street, one person who is out has gone to town. That is the

:29:51.:29:58.

new EU flag. I made it myself. I don't know anyone who is not voting

:29:59.:30:04.

out. I will take Nigel back, someone else might want him. Can I keep him.

:30:05.:30:11.

With that he was off, neither he nor we have too long to wait now for the

:30:12.:30:14.

outcome of this referendum. So how has the referendum

:30:15.:30:17.

campaign been for you? Have you been dismayed by the nature

:30:18.:30:21.

of the argument, or have you relished

:30:22.:30:25.

the hand-to-hand combat? Project fear, on each side,

:30:26.:30:27.

claim and counter claim, blunt warnings and intemperate

:30:28.:30:29.

language, accusations What has the prosecution

:30:30.:30:31.

of the campaign told us about the public discourse in

:30:32.:30:35.

Britain and has it unearthed deep-seated divisions and

:30:36.:30:37.

faultlines in our culture? Here with me, the writers

:30:38.:30:40.

Howard Jacobson, Jack Monroe, and Dreda Say Mitchell

:30:41.:30:42.

and the historian Robert Tombs. First let's talk about the conduct

:30:43.:30:53.

of the campaign. Howard, you heard about scaremongering, what the woman

:30:54.:30:56.

was saying about scaremongering on both sides, what do you think? I am

:30:57.:31:02.

exhilarated by the campaign and depressed at the same time, you can

:31:03.:31:08.

feel both. I very much as a Remainer, and I have been a person

:31:09.:31:14.

who wanted to leave Europe forever. Every morning I left Europe until I

:31:15.:31:19.

realised there was going to be a referendum and people were doing

:31:20.:31:22.

this seriously. It's one thing to play at leaving but people were

:31:23.:31:25.

serious, so I became a Remainer. Since then I've grown very depressed

:31:26.:31:31.

by, more than anything else, the charge for people who want to leave

:31:32.:31:37.

that the Remainers are scaremongering. I have not heard

:31:38.:31:41.

any. They are saying you are about to take a leap in the dark, that's

:31:42.:31:44.

frightening, be frightened of the unknown. There is a difference

:31:45.:31:49.

between being frightened of the unknown and what the Brexiteers are

:31:50.:31:51.

doing which is saying be frightened of other people. From your point of

:31:52.:31:57.

view, Robert, as an historian, is there something particularly about

:31:58.:32:00.

the whole binary nature of a referendum that brings out the

:32:01.:32:05.

visceral hand-to-hand combat? And also the idea that it's going to be

:32:06.:32:10.

a simple majority. It could just be 140 people. Let's hope not. What

:32:11.:32:16.

strikes me about the campaign has been how little the establishment

:32:17.:32:20.

has been listened to by a very large portion of the electorate. These

:32:21.:32:25.

masses of people, the people who are supposed to be our leaders, have

:32:26.:32:29.

been telling us over and over again, this is the way we must vote. It

:32:30.:32:34.

reminds me of Victorian squires saying to their tenants you have to

:32:35.:32:37.

vote for me all you will be evicted. And I think there has been a lot of

:32:38.:32:42.

scaremongering. What about the kind of language, Dreda? For me it has

:32:43.:32:46.

been a lot of scaremongering on both sides. I think with Remain it has

:32:47.:32:53.

been more about economic. George Osborne, talk about an own goal,

:32:54.:32:57.

saying house prices will drop. Most of the young people I know were

:32:58.:33:01.

jumping in the air saying they might be able to get something. When I

:33:02.:33:05.

watched what was going on, my perception was, because I did not

:33:06.:33:09.

see much of Labour being involved, and as a left-wing Labour supporter

:33:10.:33:13.

I was very disappointed about that. I just saw infighting among one

:33:14.:33:17.

particular party. To tell you the truth and I've said this publicly, I

:33:18.:33:21.

turned my television off and I went and try to educate myself via

:33:22.:33:24.

Reading, talking to other people, and that's how I came to the

:33:25.:33:29.

decision to actually leave. I was very disturbed by the type of public

:33:30.:33:34.

campaign I saw on both sides. Jack, how has the campaign been for you?

:33:35.:33:42.

What do you make of it? It's been insidious, xenophobic, terrifying.

:33:43.:33:49.

It's been a lot of very noisy rhetoric from the same faces from

:33:50.:33:56.

the same establishment figures. I would challenge claim that the

:33:57.:34:01.

public are not listening to the establishment, I would say the

:34:02.:34:03.

establishment are not listening to the public, and I do not see my

:34:04.:34:07.

views represented anywhere, the views of my father, many of my

:34:08.:34:11.

friends. I feel we've got the same bevy of people telling us what's

:34:12.:34:15.

best for us and nobody is asking us. It is a very binary debate and it

:34:16.:34:19.

does get heated. But it is the lies, dammed lies and statistics that have

:34:20.:34:23.

really got me, how are people supposed to know how to vote when so

:34:24.:34:27.

many people are distorting so many facts? I think what has happened, if

:34:28.:34:31.

you go outside of London it is a very different picture. I live

:34:32.:34:36.

outside of London! What has come to the surface for me is the divisions

:34:37.:34:40.

among class. When you talk to a lot of working-class people they are

:34:41.:34:43.

saying that they will vote for leave. What was interesting with the

:34:44.:34:52.

referendum debate at Wembley was Frances O'Grady was saying I am

:34:53.:34:55.

standing for workers, she is on the Remain side. A lot of the workers

:34:56.:34:58.

are saying, you are not actually standing for us. The problem has

:34:59.:35:00.

been that the Labour Party has been too much in the shadows. One of the

:35:01.:35:04.

issues for the future is, where are working-class people going to vote?

:35:05.:35:09.

When you've got the project fear followed by what Sadiq Khan said

:35:10.:35:13.

today, calling it project hate, you've got the kind of language, is

:35:14.:35:16.

it the language of the social media page? In this country we have a

:35:17.:35:23.

proud tradition of vehemence debate. We are sarcastic, we love being rude

:35:24.:35:30.

to one another. In the 19th century people used to watch pantomime

:35:31.:35:32.

because they loved the violence. We've got great cartoonists. All

:35:33.:35:36.

this is within our great tradition. What is different and I would not

:35:37.:35:39.

put this down to our national character and not down to the effect

:35:40.:35:43.

of social media is this assumption that everybody who doesn't think

:35:44.:35:47.

what you think is a moron. And not only is he a moron, he's a liar.

:35:48.:35:52.

This idea, the trouble with a binary debate, it's exactly in the spirit,

:35:53.:35:58.

in or out. Whereas we all know that all the interesting things are

:35:59.:36:01.

between those two funds, but we've got no opportunity here to do

:36:02.:36:05.

anything but say in and out. Encouraged by the social media, we

:36:06.:36:08.

now suppose that everybody who doesn't think what we think deserves

:36:09.:36:13.

to die, really. Is this actually a reflection of a solid democracy?

:36:14.:36:19.

Well I think it's going to leave rather a political hangover. It's

:36:20.:36:24.

shown that there are divisions that we always knew were there, social

:36:25.:36:28.

divisions, generational divisions, regional. But they have proved to be

:36:29.:36:32.

rather deeper than we thought. It has shown a huge amount of distrust.

:36:33.:36:36.

What worries me, whatever the result, people will be looking for

:36:37.:36:41.

things to go wrong afterwards. And by the very nature of how the result

:36:42.:36:44.

is counted, we are going to know geographically, demographically, how

:36:45.:36:49.

this is panning out, and where the divisions like. And I think that is

:36:50.:36:54.

an important thing to know. I think for too long when we talk about

:36:55.:36:57.

politics it very much has been centred on London and the South and

:36:58.:37:01.

Westminster. I think it was even interesting with Newsnight's

:37:02.:37:05.

analysis of the debate just now, we were talking very much to

:37:06.:37:09.

politicians. I thought to myself, why has there been no discussion?

:37:10.:37:12.

Couldn't they have had a satellite in another part of the country

:37:13.:37:16.

talking to people outside London? We have been doing that all last week,

:37:17.:37:21.

we had a referendum truck around the country. For that particular debate

:37:22.:37:26.

because it is such a key debate, it would have been an interesting

:37:27.:37:29.

perspective to have. I think it is a good example of what we are not

:37:30.:37:33.

doing sometimes. Jack, are you concerned that some of the divisions

:37:34.:37:37.

this has exposed will remain? They will not be papered over on Friday?

:37:38.:37:42.

Absolutely. And I think it will highlight what different people's

:37:43.:37:47.

concerns are in a way that we probably don't have that information

:37:48.:37:51.

at the moment. Because our politics seems so focused in the wrong

:37:52.:37:55.

groups, in the wrong places. There are large swathes of people who feel

:37:56.:37:59.

not represented, and that's how we have people like Nigel Farage, Trump

:38:00.:38:03.

over in the States. That's how we have these blustering obsessively

:38:04.:38:06.

nasty politicians getting their armies of people to listen to them

:38:07.:38:10.

because they are people who feel like they are not being represented.

:38:11.:38:14.

We've got a working-class revolution going on but they all seem to be

:38:15.:38:17.

going in a rather dangerous direction. I think in a way the EU

:38:18.:38:22.

provides an extra layer of a problem. All over the western world

:38:23.:38:26.

and in the democratic world people are feeling unrepresented by

:38:27.:38:29.

politicians. Then you have in the EU another layer which separates people

:38:30.:38:33.

from politicians, where decisions are being made quite outside the

:38:34.:38:36.

accountability and indeed the knowledge of the voters and that is

:38:37.:38:41.

a big problem. How do you feel about the House of Lords, then? That's

:38:42.:38:46.

another debate. How do you make your peace with your friends who take a

:38:47.:38:50.

different view? My friends don't take a different view! They are very

:38:51.:38:54.

quickly persuaded of the rightness of my point of view. And I don't

:38:55.:39:00.

have any friends who say "I want my country back". I have a great deal

:39:01.:39:03.

of sympathy for people who live in areas where they don't hear their

:39:04.:39:08.

own language spoken. I'd think we should talk about racists the way we

:39:09.:39:13.

do. Nonetheless, to hear people saying "I want my country back",

:39:14.:39:17.

that's terrifying. It wasn't so long ago when we saw what people saying

:39:18.:39:21.

that led to. This country has not been taken over, we are not

:39:22.:39:25.

occupied, we have a distinct, vibrant country. We are ourselves,

:39:26.:39:28.

we have nothing to fear about being taken over, it is a wicked language

:39:29.:39:34.

and terrifying. If you are on the side of Leave and you end up being

:39:35.:39:38.

lumped in with people who say "I want to take my country back". I

:39:39.:39:43.

want the democracy back. But how does it sit with you, do you believe

:39:44.:39:47.

that? What I believe is that democracy in Europe is under a lot

:39:48.:39:50.

of pressure and the EU, which is what we are supposed to be talking

:39:51.:39:54.

about, is making it worse and aggravating the situation. It has

:39:55.:39:57.

really reached us yet and you could say this is not our problem, but if

:39:58.:40:01.

you look around Europe there is a rise of populist parties of right

:40:02.:40:06.

and left. I think Europe is heading for some sort of political crisis.

:40:07.:40:12.

Dreda, you are in a position with some bedfellows you wouldn't

:40:13.:40:14.

normally want as bedfellows, how comfortable do you feel about that?

:40:15.:40:20.

To me it has never been the issue, the issue around the EU has never

:40:21.:40:23.

been about the left and right debate, it goes right across the

:40:24.:40:26.

parties. I think I'm in the tradition of the Labour Party from

:40:27.:40:30.

the 1970s and 1980s with the big slogan get Britain out. That's where

:40:31.:40:35.

I think I'm sitting. It's not a debate about personalities, it's

:40:36.:40:39.

about the issues. Thank you all very much indeed. Vote well but just vote

:40:40.:40:44.

once. That's all we have time for. Evan is back tomorrow for the last

:40:45.:40:50.

day of the user what. Good night. Most of us go into the night drive

:40:51.:41:01.

but by the morning rain again across parts of South West England through

:41:02.:41:05.

towards the Midlands. From there towards Yorkshire and the Humber

:41:06.:41:06.

where we could

:41:07.:41:07.

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