24/06/2016 Newsnight


24/06/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis. So... now what?


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Transcript


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Well, at 4.40am, we can now say that...

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The people of the United Kingdom have voted to leave

:00:22.:00:23.

I'm not going to be here a lot longer, I'm nearly 80.

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Well, by about ten o'clock, I would say, would be about right!

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I do not think it would be right for me to try to be the captain

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that steers our country to its next destination.

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Are you not worried about what you're hearing this morning?

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About David Cameron resigning or the strength of the pound?

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A letter of no confidence has been tabled with Jeremy Corbyn.

:00:55.:01:02.

We will begin to prepare the legislation that

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would be required to enable a new independence referendum.

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Anybody that doesn't think this is big stuff needs

:01:10.:01:11.

I'm kind of thinking of moving to another country.

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It is no longer right for this country.

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Because the French don't like us and the Germans don't

:01:23.:01:26.

I don't know what's got to happen next.

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We've got nowt, so what can get worse?

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It's the biggest financial story since the crash, a huge political

:01:38.:01:59.

story, a once in a generation foreign politcy shift,

:02:00.:02:01.

all in one day - not to mention the constitutional

:02:02.:02:04.

We can keep calm, but carrying on as before, not really possible.

:02:05.:02:11.

The enormity of what has happened has been sinking into voters

:02:12.:02:13.

We mustn't over interpret the result.

:02:14.:02:22.

If one in 50 of all voters had switched from Leave to Remain, we'd

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But we mustn't under-interpret it either, and all that it represents.

:02:27.:02:32.

Is this the first vote ever to say it's NOT the economy

:02:33.:02:35.

The latest of a wave of insurrections sweeping the West.

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A challenge to the established order and the political class.

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The discontented getting their own back.

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Or should you view it as an inter-generational struggle?

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The polls showing under 45s voted in and over 45s wanted us out.

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And there's an aftermath of bitterness.

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One young man's tweet: "I'm so angry", he said.

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"A generation given everything - free education, golden pensions,

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social mobility - have voted to strip my generation's future".

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For some, it comes down to nothing less than a culture war.

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So who's corrupt? Europe.

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Youthful urban liberals versus older social conservatives.

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The former worry that Britain will now turn its back

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The latter think it's time for their voice to be heard again.

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It's not as clean-cut as that, but that's where the argument goes -

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Well, it's for the history books to argue about the causes

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We're going to do something different tonight.

:03:45.:03:47.

What's next for politics in this country?

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The two major parties both looking battered, both with leadership

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How will the EU now choose to treat us?

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And how does our decision affect the EU?

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And what's next for the UK, with Scotland voting

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Well, of the three "what nexts", politics comes first,

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At a turbulent time like this, it would be great to

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have a Nelson Mandela to take over, heal the wounds, articulate a vision

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for the country and negotiate a new arrangement with goodwill

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Well, Donald Trump flew into Britain today, but he's not available.

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It is an awful time to be a mainstream politician.

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I'm going to be talking to some of them in a minute.

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But first, I'm here with our political editor, Nick Watt.

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In Westminster this morning, shock? They were shell-shocked in Downing

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Street. They had a simple thought, Project Fear would deliver a second

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referendum when what we saw power and authority seeping away from

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Number 10 a number 11 Downing St, he might have thought that the

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Chancellor would calm down the market but that job was left to the

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Governor of the Bank of England and he had a couple of tweets from the

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Chancellor. We were talking to one Whitehall source who, like a number

:05:17.:05:21.

ten to do not, the Centre has fallen apart. They went on to say, no

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communication from Number 10, we assume they have gone to the pub.

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As dawn broke today, written a look to the most momentous shuffling of

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the political order since the Second World War. The Suez Canal...

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Evaluation of sterling, the defenestration of Margaret Thatcher.

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We are leaving Downing Street... Arguably, they were trumped today

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when Britain stumbled out of the EU. Overturning for decades of

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assumptions about Britain's place in Europe was of an order of such

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magnitude that it made the resignation of the sitting Prime

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Minister a second order issue. David Cameron's voice cracked as he

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announced his departure. I love this country. And I feel honoured to have

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served it. And I will do everything I can in future to help this great

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country succeed. Thank you very much. Any hope of a Roman style

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triumph were soon crushed- Boris Johnson greeted by protesters as he

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left his house. The Prime Minister's nemesis looked funereal at the death

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of what they have achieved something. I want to begin by paying

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tribute to David Cameron, they had spoken earlier from Downing Street,

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and I know that I speak for Michael in saying how sad I am that he has

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decided to step down but obviously, I respect that decision. Johnson

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owns the next few months but his hopes of reaching Number 10 might

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hinge on whether his assurances of a seamless transition to life outside

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the EU country. Michael Gove insists he has no interest in leadership but

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a fellow Leave campaigner is not sure. The Conservative party has so

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many talented people, dozens come to mind but my top three would be

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Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Andrea Leadsom. Will the next

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Conservative prime ministers be for Brexit? The Prime Minister stood

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down because he failed that having backed Remain he cannot increment

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the will of the people expressed in the referendum, but applies to

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anyone else who supported Remain. Within months the circus will have

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moved on but for the moment David Cameron finds himself at the hostage

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to his former allies as he accepts their timetable for a British exit

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from the EU. David Cameron hoped to end his Premiership as one of the

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great Conservative social reformers but instead, he finds our ebbing

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away. I am not sure if I recall this a zombie government but it feels

:08:16.:08:19.

more like a caretaker government for the next few months. We had a

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government with a massive legislative agenda with prison and

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NHS reform and Universal Credit, and a lot of that has been on hold

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because of the referendum. Now, because of the leadership campaign,

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we have a Prime Minister effectively an interim Prime Minister for

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months, and because of summer and the concerns about the EU, what will

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happen with negotiations, even more will probably be in abeyance for the

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time being. You wait an age for a leadership crisis and then two of

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them come along. If you are worse after the Prime Minister announced

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plans to resign, two veteran Labour MPs said they would lay the ground

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for a challenge to Jeremy Corbyn. Others share those concerns. I

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understand that motion and the concerns of Margaret and other

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colleagues. Of looking at the results of yesterday. We went into

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this referendum campaign expecting 70 or 80% of Labour supporters and

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voters to vote Remain and we barely got 50% and if he cannot demonstrate

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after this massive test that the Labour Party can retrieve ground,

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there are more problems ahead, we could have a General Election in six

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months and at the moment, it's on the outcome of yesterday, it is not

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looking good for the Labour Party and his leadership. We got the

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country back! It was Independence Day for the winners but the most

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unashamedly pro-EU party said that Britain should not give up on its

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European destiny. We heard Nigel Farage ungraciously before the

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result when he thought he had lost saying there could be a second

:10:01.:10:03.

referendum. I will not say that. If things change as the months go by

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and public opinion significantly changes, we must make sure we keep

:10:10.:10:12.

all options open and we must not shackle ourselves to the corpse of a

:10:13.:10:18.

Brexit government. For some, the European dream will never die. But

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for another generation, at least, Britain's European journey is at an

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end. Here with me, the former

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Tory Chancellor, Ken Clarke, Suzanne Evans from Vote Leave

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and Tristram Hunt, the Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent,

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which voted to leave the EU with one of the biggest margins

:10:32.:10:34.

in the country. Ken Clarke, 46 years in politics,

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all devoted to the European project, you must feel gutted? I do, I

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started as a very active Conservative student politician

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supporting Harold Wilson's first bid to join the European Community so it

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is ironic that 50 years later, this erotic argument is still going on

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and we are leaving the European Union. I actually, deliberately,

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have tried to control my annoyance and anger and distress. Because at

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the moment, we have to decide what we do next, which I think is what

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the programme is about. We have a caretaker government with no policy

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of any kind on what our relationship is going to be in the outside world

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or Europe in particular. We do not know what we shall do about

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immigration but a lot of people were told to be very frightened. And I

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think, I have to count to ten and wonder what the devil do after this

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extraordinary, very narrow result. Can I ask a personal reflection? Ed

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Miliband last year stood against a government and he said, I am better

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for business because not gone to risk the nation's departure from the

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European Union. You must have thought, it would be better if Ed

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Miliband had won the 20 15th election? I do not think that! My

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generation thinks referendums are absurd way of running the country

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but there was no point in emphasising that once we have gone

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out to have one and no point in emphasising that right now because

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we have had one and we are where we are and everybody on both sides and

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I'm sure people on both sides feel as passionately as I do, the country

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at the moment is in a period of great uncertainty. It needs a

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government, it needs a government that can start getting on the

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business of running the country and several crises again and it needs to

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decide, as we have to negotiate with the EU, what exactly do we want?

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Quickly, the other two of you, do you think a General Election is

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required at this time of time? I would say no, I am ecstatic at the

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result but Iraq and that any half of the country voted the other way and

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will be quite worried and I have spoken to build today who have

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concerns about where we go next and I have been doing their best to

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reassure them. I think General Election, for me, would bring

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another level of uncertainty, which is best avoided. General Election?

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There is a high likelihood if we have a new leader of the

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Conservative party, they will want to develop their own mandate so

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whether we have an election in autumn or in spring, and what they

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have to go to the country on his the article 50 strategy. There is a

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serious risk of an election and I cannot quite see at the moment how

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the government can reform with a Parliamentary majority to make the

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kind of changes that most of those four Brexit want. They do not know.

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I think to go into a General Election would add to the risks of

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where we are more uncertainty and chaos and another daft and dreadful

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campaign. With a very indecisive result, that would be disastrous.

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Who should be the next Prime Minister, before we hear from you,

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who do you think, Tristram Hunt? The next leader of the Conservative

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party? From the Labour Party perspective, I would regard or as

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Johnson as a very successful celebrity candidate. A very clever

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man. He has used that intelligence to appeal to some very basic

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instincts. Alongside Michael Gove, he would seek to deliver a very

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neoliberal Tory Brexit. I don't want any of them. Is that all right?

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Suzanne Evans? It has to be somebody passionate about Brexit and with a

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clear vision. Not Theresa May? I would say not. It is a shame because

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she was one of the frontrunners and I think that she come out for ten

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one. Andrea Leadsom has been one of the standout stars. And Chancellor

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for sure. Because nobody has the first idea of what the economic

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policy of the government is now supposed to be... Nobody has a first

:15:09.:15:14.

idea. What we are saying about immigrants and what we're not

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saying, there is a danger the country will fill around with

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another leadership election, having... It does. We need a

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balanced government, headed by somebody of balanced views and not

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somebody who is good at foot opportunities. And we need people

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who can settle down to the serious business of government. -- photo

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opportunities. Theresa May? The referendum campaign, when not

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washing immigrants, was Boris and David, and the British, they have

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caused a crisis for half of the Western world, if they decide to

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have a fun Conservative leadership battle... That is hyperbole!

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Are you going to give us a name? Let's turn to Szczecin hunt, the

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Tories are fighting with each other and Labour are fighting with the

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voters, which is a much more dangerous place for the party. This

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referendum exposed tensions in the Labour Party and labour movement and

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where you see in Stoke-on-Trent 70-30 out and contrast that with

:16:23.:16:26.

some of the votes in Brighton, Bristol, Norwich, or Exeter, other

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Labour areas, we have got this divide between our traditional

:16:31.:16:35.

working class Labour communities who felt real pressure on the

:16:36.:16:38.

globalisation over the last ten years, felt pressure on wages levels

:16:39.:16:44.

from immigration, feel discontent about the level of change, versus as

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you said in your intro... I understand the problems you are

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describing but it's an enormous problem for a political party to

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find out half of its base is basically completely at odds with it

:16:56.:16:58.

and doesn't view the world in the same way at all. And we have had

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these problems in the past and Ken will know there are any number of

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books called What's Wrong With Labour, Will It Ever Come Back? If

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you have somebody with a social democratic view who people trust and

:17:15.:17:17.

want to put their country in the trust of you can overcome these

:17:18.:17:22.

problems, no doubt. Jeremy Corbyn, does he meet that job description?

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Ken said an interesting thing about the serious business of government.

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We now face really serious, tough and difficult times. This is a

:17:31.:17:34.

national crisis and the job of opposition, rather like John Smith

:17:35.:17:39.

during the Maastricht Treaty, is to provide strategic vision and

:17:40.:17:42.

forensic detail. Jeremy Corbyn is very, very good at energising the

:17:43.:17:46.

base and making those who are already convinced of Labour ideals

:17:47.:17:50.

feel better about themselves. Whether he is the man to make sure

:17:51.:17:56.

that Labour values are at the core of every negotiation strategy. A lot

:17:57.:18:01.

of people think he's not the right man for the job. Whether he is the

:18:02.:18:05.

right man to have the Labour values at the core of the re-negotiation

:18:06.:18:09.

strategy, I'm not convinced he has those capacities. Suzanne Evans,

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there is a problem with trust of politicians, isn't there? That's one

:18:14.:18:16.

of the reasons you've done very well. When exactly will be get the

:18:17.:18:20.

?350 million extra per week spent on the NHS you promised for the whole

:18:21.:18:25.

campaign? When will that happen? It has gone already. We actually

:18:26.:18:30.

promised 100 million specifically for the NHS. I saw one thing, 350

:18:31.:18:37.

million for the NHS. I saw it on a bus. We said 350 million to spend on

:18:38.:18:43.

our own priorities like the NHS. And then a specific proposal for the NHS

:18:44.:18:48.

which was 100 million and that's the kind of cash injection the NHS needs

:18:49.:18:52.

and it's fantastic to have this money back. When will we have the

:18:53.:18:56.

100 million a week? Into a three years' time. Do you not think the

:18:57.:19:01.

possibility is that the things that have brought mainstream politicians

:19:02.:19:04.

into such disrepute and low regard and lack of trust and nothing they

:19:05.:19:08.

say is believed is now about to hit you and all of those who made that

:19:09.:19:12.

case? I don't think so, the British electorate made their decision. They

:19:13.:19:21.

were looking at the asterisk, which wasn't there, that said read this

:19:22.:19:24.

very carefully. The campaign was dreadful. The public got angry and

:19:25.:19:30.

confused. They were no better informed when they finished them

:19:31.:19:33.

when they started, which is why lots of older people in particular were

:19:34.:19:36.

angry with the politicians and antiestablishment and a lot of this

:19:37.:19:40.

is a protest vote. The worst thing they did was talk about these Syrian

:19:41.:19:44.

refugees, Britain has complete control about how many Syrians come

:19:45.:19:50.

over here. On Wednesday and we do now, it's nothing to do with the EU

:19:51.:19:53.

whether they are admitted and settle there. Had a poster with thousands

:19:54.:19:59.

of them streaming in. It was disgusting. Let's not go back over

:20:00.:20:03.

it. Winnie Byanyima man to unite the party and the country and we need a

:20:04.:20:07.

policy and the sooner the better. -- we need the right man. Thank you all

:20:08.:20:10.

very much. Of course, alongside

:20:11.:20:11.

the politics is economics. Famously, we like to describe

:20:12.:20:13.

ourselves as the fifth largest Today, we came close

:20:14.:20:15.

to being the sixth. So when you convert our pound-based

:20:16.:20:18.

national income into dollars, The financial gyrations

:20:19.:20:22.

were considerable and some companies' shares were pummelled

:20:23.:20:26.

in the expectation that things Our business editor,

:20:27.:20:29.

Helen Thomas, is here. Helen, take us through some of those

:20:30.:20:39.

gyrations. So, you heard about the meltdown, there is ample cause for

:20:40.:20:44.

concern but the odd crumb of comfort also. The pound, our best barometer

:20:45.:20:48.

for the overall confidence in the UK economy. You can see that it surged

:20:49.:20:54.

higher as hopes built for a Remain victory last night and then it

:20:55.:20:58.

plunged, a huge move for a currency. I've never seen it move like that!

:20:59.:21:03.

Late in the day it found a level, around 1.37 to the dollar and

:21:04.:21:07.

similar story on the stock markets. Here you can see a very dramatic

:21:08.:21:11.

drop at the open of the markets. Just over on the left. Both for the

:21:12.:21:17.

FTSE 100 and the more UK focused 250. Banks and property stocks

:21:18.:21:21.

hard-hit but then the markets came back and recovered. So what we

:21:22.:21:26.

didn't see was this sort of downward panicked spiral that would indicate

:21:27.:21:29.

a total loss of confidence in the UK. Having said that, it was a

:21:30.:21:34.

really tough day and that reflects investors marking down there outlook

:21:35.:21:41.

for the UK. Some might say the worrying thing is not getting

:21:42.:21:44.

through the next week, it's the longer term. We may be in this slow

:21:45.:21:48.

grinding process of figuring out what the economic hit is going to

:21:49.:21:53.

be. We know some of the areas of concern because the Bank of England

:21:54.:21:56.

helpfully told us last week. They said while consumer spending has

:21:57.:22:00.

been solid, there is grabbing evidence that uncertainty about the

:22:01.:22:04.

referendum is leading to delays to major economic decisions. They

:22:05.:22:10.

mentioned a commercial and real estate transactions, car purchases

:22:11.:22:14.

and business investment. In those sectors that were slowing, the

:22:15.:22:18.

shutters come down. That is the concern. Most analysts believe we

:22:19.:22:25.

need to slow down, possibly a recession. Let's leave the idea of a

:22:26.:22:31.

crisis, you can still have an ugly outcome. If business and hiring

:22:32.:22:37.

dries up quickly, you could see business was already falling into

:22:38.:22:40.

the vote, in that scenario unemployment starts to rise and

:22:41.:22:44.

people worry about jobs, banks pull back on lending, partly because they

:22:45.:22:47.

are worried about loans being repaid and that hits confidence and

:22:48.:22:51.

consumer spending. Meanwhile, a weaker currency means higher

:22:52.:22:54.

inflation and the Bank of England which targets inflation may not feel

:22:55.:22:57.

it Kammy act aggressively to stimulate the economy. It does get

:22:58.:23:02.

confusing. Is there any more sanguine scenario you can paint. --

:23:03.:23:11.

it can act aggressively. A weaker pound could boost exports. More

:23:12.:23:16.

importantly the Bank of England might say we are not going to worry

:23:17.:23:19.

about inflation right now, we are going to look through that, they

:23:20.:23:23.

could cut rates and stimulate the economy in other ways and maybe they

:23:24.:23:25.

have enough tools in their toolkit to do that. The irony is that the

:23:26.:23:30.

Governor Mark Carney who has had a pretty tired dot-mac hard time of

:23:31.:23:34.

late, his crucial to how this pans out. -- a pretty hard time.

:23:35.:23:38.

The next of our What Nows is Europe itself.

:23:39.:23:40.

After the French revolution, other royal families worried

:23:41.:23:48.

about how to keep their heads, there's a bit of that

:23:49.:23:51.

If any eurocrats were still harbouring dreams of creating

:23:52.:23:54.

a European superstate, Britain has shown that the old

:23:55.:23:56.

concept of the nation state is not going down without a fight.

:23:57.:24:00.

Critically there is the looming question of what our relationship

:24:01.:24:02.

with the EU might be. Our diplomatic editor

:24:03.:24:08.

Mark Urban is in Brussels. Good evening.

:24:09.:24:14.

The thing that is defining attitudes here is a fear of contagion. Will

:24:15.:24:19.

Heard Marine Le Pen, some Dutch Eurosceptics and others as well in

:24:20.:24:23.

Europe welcoming today's result, but none of them are in power right now.

:24:24.:24:29.

And none of them is in a position to deliver an in-out referendum in

:24:30.:24:31.

another European country any time soon. But the attitude that seems to

:24:32.:24:38.

be dominant here, we have certainly heard some of the big hitters in the

:24:39.:24:42.

Brussels machine voicing this attitude, is that Brexit should

:24:43.:24:46.

happen not just quickly but in a very tough or exemplary way. In

:24:47.:24:50.

other words, they want the other countries in Europe that may be

:24:51.:24:54.

watching to see the Brits go out on very tough terms. Fascinating

:24:55.:24:59.

insights tonight from Wolfgang Schreiber, the German finance

:25:00.:25:03.

minister, very influential, a leaked Brexit plan of his suggests trade

:25:04.:25:07.

terms and an association agreement not like Norway, as some people

:25:08.:25:12.

discussed in the UK, not like Switzerland, more the sort of deal

:25:13.:25:16.

that Turkey or Canada might be negotiating in the latter case. Very

:25:17.:25:22.

tough terms, all to do with trying to head off a risk, which even last

:25:23.:25:26.

night and was nobody in this town really had got to grips with the

:25:27.:25:28.

idea of what was about to hit it. they woke up to the day that

:25:29.:25:34.

ever-closer union died. Across the airwaves and in many

:25:35.:25:55.

languages, that dread news sank in. With markets plunging

:25:56.:26:03.

across many countries, the woman styled Queen Europe

:26:04.:26:05.

by some called for calm. TRANSLATION: What the outcome

:26:06.:26:13.

of this watershed will mean to us in the coming days,

:26:14.:26:19.

weeks, months and years If we, the other 27 member states

:26:20.:26:21.

of the European Union, are capable and willing not to rush

:26:22.:26:28.

into any quick and easy decisions which would only further

:26:29.:26:31.

disunite Europe. But if we're capable and willing

:26:32.:26:35.

to assess the situation calmly and soberly in order to come

:26:36.:26:38.

to a joint decision on this basis. At the Commission, leaders

:26:39.:26:41.

of the European institutions met And, very soon, it became clear

:26:42.:26:43.

that there would be no further We are already hearing voices

:26:44.:26:50.

here from the other 27 members of the EU that they should force

:26:51.:26:57.

the pace of Brexit in order to protect their own economies

:26:58.:27:00.

and political systems. And now we're going to hear

:27:01.:27:03.

from the bosses of the union's big institutions, and it'll be

:27:04.:27:07.

fascinating to see to what extent they think the union should drive

:27:08.:27:10.

a tough exit bargain with the UK. For the man running the European

:27:11.:27:15.

bureaucracy, even the words to describe this moment

:27:16.:27:19.

seemed to stick. The British people expressed

:27:20.:27:22.

its views on their... We now expect the United Kingdom

:27:23.:27:29.

government to give effect to this decision of the British people

:27:30.:27:40.

as soon as possible. As for what it meant

:27:41.:27:45.

for the remaining 27, watch this. REPORTER: Is this the beginning

:27:46.:27:54.

of the end of the European Union? Blunt but very much

:27:55.:27:57.

to the liking of the non-British So, Europe is in the deepest

:27:58.:28:07.

of crises as consultations begin And there are already suggestions

:28:08.:28:15.

by many players here that any deal should be exemplary,

:28:16.:28:23.

with the UK denied access It is a consequence of the British

:28:24.:28:25.

vote because the single market, or the European Economic Area,

:28:26.:28:31.

includes also the free That was the problem

:28:32.:28:34.

in the referendum. So I think that the only way

:28:35.:28:43.

to establish any relationship between Britain and the European

:28:44.:28:45.

Union is using a trade agreement. Like Europe has trade agreements

:28:46.:28:49.

with a number of countries. There are those who favour more

:28:50.:28:58.

generalist terms, but so far There is a statue just

:28:59.:29:01.

outside the commission. And on the day that the Brexit

:29:02.:29:06.

earthquake hit this town, Earlier I was joined

:29:07.:29:11.

by Jonathan Powell, Tony Blair's Did he think the decision

:29:12.:29:17.

to leave was irreversible or was there a still a route

:29:18.:29:23.

where Britain could retain its Well, I think this was a vote

:29:24.:29:25.

against something rather than a vote It was a vote against our current

:29:26.:29:31.

relationship with the EU but it wasn't a vote for what sort

:29:32.:29:35.

of new relationship we should have. So I must say I think David Cameron

:29:36.:29:38.

is right to delay the start of negotiations until there

:29:39.:29:42.

is a new Prime Minister. But I would go further than that,

:29:43.:29:45.

I think any new Prime Minister needs

:29:46.:29:47.

a mandate for a negotiation. He has to set out what he is for,

:29:48.:29:51.

what sort of new relationship are we

:29:52.:29:54.

going to have with EU? I think that's very,

:29:55.:29:56.

very important that they get that I don't think you can

:29:57.:30:02.

really start negotiations until there has been

:30:03.:30:05.

an election, not just the choice

:30:06.:30:06.

of a new Tory leader. So, hang on, is it possible

:30:07.:30:09.

a party could go into an election saying we are in, we're

:30:10.:30:13.

just going to ignore the referendum and we'll just

:30:14.:30:16.

negotiate us to remain? Of course you can, that's

:30:17.:30:18.

what elections are about. You go for an election in a mandate,

:30:19.:30:20.

one of the many reasons Mrs Thatcher was

:30:21.:30:23.

against referenda was because she thought you should decide this

:30:24.:30:25.

in representative democracy But the main point here is this

:30:26.:30:27.

is a vote against something, The Brexiteers were

:30:28.:30:33.

completely divided on what they wanted,

:30:34.:30:36.

no one knows what they mean. So someone has got to set out

:30:37.:30:38.

a positive mandate and A lot of the Europeans

:30:39.:30:41.

are saying they The path you are

:30:42.:30:44.

describing, and indeed the path that the Leave campaign has

:30:45.:30:47.

been describing is one that takes We will be waiting months before

:30:48.:30:50.

the negotiation gets going. Do you think we can really

:30:51.:30:54.

keep our European David Cameron has already set out

:30:55.:30:56.

the timetable as far It's only us who can start

:30:57.:31:01.

Article 50, not them. So I totally understand why

:31:02.:31:05.

they wanted to be quick, because the uncertainty

:31:06.:31:06.

is hurting them, not just us. But in the end they

:31:07.:31:09.

are going to have to wait for us and I think we would be

:31:10.:31:12.

sensible - A, to have a negotiating position,

:31:13.:31:15.

B, to have a new Prime Minister, and C, for

:31:16.:31:17.

that Prime Minister to have a mandate

:31:18.:31:19.

for his negotiating. This is really important

:31:20.:31:21.

about our future. You can't just go in there not clear

:31:22.:31:22.

what you want. The other critical thing is,

:31:23.:31:25.

how hardball do you think Because, already we've heard some

:31:26.:31:27.

reports saying the Norway option, forget it, you're not

:31:28.:31:31.

going to get the Norway option, that's not

:31:32.:31:33.

on the What do you think

:31:34.:31:35.

the European Union, what line do you think

:31:36.:31:39.

they They are not going to try and punish

:31:40.:31:40.

us because they want to have good The point is that they

:31:41.:31:46.

have their interests. They are going to meet at 27

:31:47.:31:49.

without us next week to start working out

:31:50.:31:52.

what their position is. Their main priority is to keep

:31:53.:31:54.

the EU together, to stop the So there are not going to offer

:31:55.:31:57.

us anything that will encourage the Dutch or the Finns

:31:58.:32:00.

for the Danes to leave. So they are not going to offer us

:32:01.:32:03.

a super deal outside the EU because otherwise

:32:04.:32:06.

they will start losing other people. They've got to take

:32:07.:32:08.

care of their interests and we've got to fight

:32:09.:32:12.

for And bluffing, do you think there has

:32:13.:32:13.

been some bluff over the last few weeks in the run-up

:32:14.:32:17.

to the referendum? If you remember, Boris

:32:18.:32:19.

Johnson said before he became the leader

:32:20.:32:22.

of the Brexit campaign, he said his

:32:23.:32:24.

preferred option would be to have a new negotiation and a new

:32:25.:32:27.

referendum, and that the referendum So I'm hoping that he

:32:28.:32:29.

becomes leader of the Tory party, which are not hoping,

:32:30.:32:33.

but if he does then he will have that mandate, he can go off and make

:32:34.:32:36.

an negotiation and then have a new Remember, the Irish have done

:32:37.:32:40.

that twice this century. They voted against the treaty,

:32:41.:32:43.

had a It seems very unlikely

:32:44.:32:44.

at the moment, the EU saying no to it,

:32:45.:32:47.

the Brexit campaign saying no to it, but that is one option when we go

:32:48.:32:51.

forward and when people realise quite how

:32:52.:32:53.

ghastly the alternatives are. We've been talking

:32:54.:32:55.

about Britain and its Let's just briefly talk

:32:56.:32:57.

about the EU itself. How dangerous is the British vote

:32:58.:33:00.

for the existence of the EU? Well, it is a threat

:33:01.:33:03.

to the existence of the EU because it's going

:33:04.:33:06.

to encourage other Eurosceptics, and you can see who the friends

:33:07.:33:08.

of the Eurosceptics are, people

:33:09.:33:10.

like Le Pen, people like Trump. Those sort of people are going to be

:33:11.:33:13.

agitating to break Europe up. And of course, European

:33:14.:33:16.

governments are going to resist that, so it is

:33:17.:33:17.

a Even leaving that to one side,

:33:18.:33:19.

what's going to happen to Europe without Britain is it's

:33:20.:33:22.

going to become less liberal, it's going to become more

:33:23.:33:25.

integrated and it's going to become more German

:33:26.:33:27.

and that's going to worry

:33:28.:33:28.

lots of countries in Europe. That's why they wanted

:33:29.:33:31.

us to stay in. That's an inevitable consequence

:33:32.:33:32.

of us leaving. Christine, how does this look from

:33:33.:33:50.

France the safety? It looks pretty ghastly. -- this evening. But

:33:51.:33:57.

listening to be very interesting discussion you just had, I think you

:33:58.:34:03.

should not underestimate the determination of the key member

:34:04.:34:07.

states on the continent not to let the British play the fiddle to

:34:08.:34:11.

determine the timetable. We should just sit and wait for them to

:34:12.:34:18.

actually act. It will very much depend on what happens on Monday

:34:19.:34:23.

when Angela Merkel meets in Berlin with Francois Hollande, the Italian

:34:24.:34:30.

Prime Minister and Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council.

:34:31.:34:36.

You will hear what the tone will be and, again, as has been said by your

:34:37.:34:43.

Brussels correspondent, there is a series of meetings next week and,

:34:44.:34:49.

again, the EU had been functioning for 17 years before Britain was

:34:50.:34:54.

accepted. I think there is a degree of arrogance at times, if I may, at

:34:55.:35:01.

this late hour in the night, to think we shall disintegrate after

:35:02.:35:06.

this rather ghastly result. Can I wish you, David Cameron is stepping

:35:07.:35:12.

down, it will take three months to collect a new Prime Minister and

:35:13.:35:16.

leader of the Conservative party, nobody feels that David Cameron can

:35:17.:35:22.

do the negotiation, you will have to wait for three months before this

:35:23.:35:28.

starts? Yes. You think that people in Brussels or just sit and wait? I

:35:29.:35:31.

think the process will be so, located, the economic and financial

:35:32.:35:38.

costs, we have seen nothing today, of course the kind lost a great deal

:35:39.:35:43.

of value and the markets will be shaken for quite some time. -- the

:35:44.:35:48.

pound. There will be a lot of work being done in the meantime and it is

:35:49.:35:53.

not going to be done by the snap of a finger but, again, on the

:35:54.:35:59.

continent, there was also this idea that the British, especially the

:36:00.:36:05.

older generation, the ones who really have deprived the young ones

:36:06.:36:11.

of the benefits of Europe, they are going to feel the brunt of this and

:36:12.:36:16.

that is something which, on the continent, will be closely watched,

:36:17.:36:21.

especially by Eastern European countries, which might, I remember,

:36:22.:36:26.

Britain wanted so much inside the EU and the night complain about

:36:27.:36:34.

immigration from Eastern Europe. Dan Hammond, they do not want us to take

:36:35.:36:38.

time. They want us to get on with it? Perfectly reasonable? You have

:36:39.:36:44.

answer that, we will have to wait until there is somebody to do those

:36:45.:36:47.

negotiations. Getting this right matters much more than the time and

:36:48.:36:52.

they getting it right, I mean by being fair to our allies on the

:36:53.:36:57.

continent as well as getting a deal in our own interests and it would be

:36:58.:37:01.

crazy to rush into something after 43 years at the expense of getting

:37:02.:37:04.

something mutually satisfactory. Jonathan Powell said we need to have

:37:05.:37:10.

an election, we have not yet worked out the model? One of the reasons

:37:11.:37:15.

that muscles is so unpopular because it is seen to be contemptuous of

:37:16.:37:20.

public opinion and it is incredible that less than 24 hours after the

:37:21.:37:23.

result we have already got people trying to undo this, but what I

:37:24.:37:28.

would say, to soften what I have just said a little bit, plainly we

:37:29.:37:33.

have referred it to say but are going to leave the EU, it was a

:37:34.:37:36.

narrow majority, 48% of people voting to stay in and Scotland

:37:37.:37:41.

voting to stay in, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar, we on the winning

:37:42.:37:46.

side have to be cognisant of the extent to which opinion is divided

:37:47.:37:51.

and carry as many remain voters as possible and that might mean that

:37:52.:37:54.

quite a lot of the existing arrangements remain in place as we

:37:55.:37:58.

try to find a status that both sides can agree to. It sounds like you, I

:37:59.:38:03.

do not know if you are smoking for Vote Leave or Boris Johnson, it

:38:04.:38:08.

sounds like you are veering towards the Norway option? A compromise? In

:38:09.:38:15.

the single market? My issue with the EU has been a lack of sovereignty

:38:16.:38:19.

and democracy. Of course, there are economic issues. It would not

:38:20.:38:24.

exactly be no way, we are different country, 65 million, but the idea of

:38:25.:38:29.

staying within it, market but outside the political integration,

:38:30.:38:33.

that is usable. And it means free movement of Labour, not EU

:38:34.:38:37.

citizenship with all of those acquired rights. We have been

:38:38.:38:42.

through three months of agony. The public have been led to believe that

:38:43.:38:46.

what they have voted for is an end to this. A very important point-

:38:47.:38:51.

from the moment we joined we had the right to take up a job offer in

:38:52.:38:55.

another member state, legal entitlement if you presented your

:38:56.:39:00.

contract. But changed the Maastricht Treaty with EU citizenship, people

:39:01.:39:03.

given legal entitlement to vote in other countries and claim welfare

:39:04.:39:08.

and have the same university tuition and so on. That will change. Why do

:39:09.:39:12.

you not say this during the campaign? To say that you want a

:39:13.:39:18.

system whereby we have free movement of Labour? Completely at odds with

:39:19.:39:23.

what the public think they have voted for. I have spent four months

:39:24.:39:27.

addressing rallies virtually every day and everyone I would say, but

:39:28.:39:31.

not imagine that if we leave, that means zero immigration, we will have

:39:32.:39:37.

some control over who comes in. You have given the impression... Your

:39:38.:39:43.

campaign has given the impression that we will not be able to get

:39:44.:39:46.

immigration down to tens of thousands inside the EU, most people

:39:47.:39:51.

would say that gives the impression we will get it down if we are

:39:52.:39:56.

outside? We want a measure of control, it would be for the future

:39:57.:40:00.

parliament to determine those numbers and how many students and

:40:01.:40:04.

doctors and whatever, but nobody has ever tried to put a number on it,

:40:05.:40:08.

that will depend on the state of the economy at the time. Thank you.

:40:09.:40:13.

Christine, we're out of time. We have hit a nerve with band. Thank

:40:14.:40:16.

you so much. -- down. OK, there's one other potentially

:40:17.:40:20.

momentous area to look at tonight: Time to dust off those

:40:21.:40:22.

old Disunited Kingdom cliches that were so popular during

:40:23.:40:26.

the Scottish referendum. Kirsty - give me a flavour

:40:27.:40:27.

of the talk in Scotland about a second independence

:40:28.:40:31.

referendum there. Well, firstly, after such a decisive

:40:32.:40:44.

vote in Scotland to remain, this country feels like it is in limbo,

:40:45.:40:49.

people are bewildered and devastated that England voted to leave and

:40:50.:40:53.

Scotland is unable to move forward, Nicola Sturgeon says referendum is

:40:54.:40:57.

highly likely but she cannot afford to lose again and she has said there

:40:58.:41:02.

is no guarantee that people who voted no in the first referendum

:41:03.:41:06.

would vote for independence. So many questions. What would the impact be

:41:07.:41:12.

on the economy and Scotland? Look what happened to oil after the last

:41:13.:41:16.

one. Would we really have a closed border and tariffs when we trade 64%

:41:17.:41:21.

and the rest of the UK? And what currency would Scotland use? We

:41:22.:41:25.

cannot use the pound and will not use the euro. But for many people

:41:26.:41:31.

now, and Bishop of the EU is a fundamental, non-negotiable so the

:41:32.:41:37.

SNP is looking for a period of calm. Nicola Sturgeon had option but to

:41:38.:41:40.

address the question of an independence referendum straightaway

:41:41.:41:44.

this morning. The manifesto the SNP was elected on last month said

:41:45.:41:47.

this... The Scottish parliament should have the right to hold

:41:48.:41:53.

another referendum if there is a significant and material change in

:41:54.:41:56.

the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken

:41:57.:42:02.

out of the EU against our will. Scotland does face the prospect. It

:42:03.:42:06.

is a significant and material change in circumstances and it is therefore

:42:07.:42:10.

a statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must

:42:11.:42:15.

be on the table. And it is on the table. From here, the UK seems in a

:42:16.:42:22.

very different place and Scotland is very much another country. Now there

:42:23.:42:26.

is a greater period of uncertainty north of the border than in England.

:42:27.:42:31.

The mechanics of the second referendum or not clear what it is

:42:32.:42:35.

unlikely that Westminster would deny Scotland a fresh independence vote

:42:36.:42:39.

because, from the Shetland Isles to the Borders, the majority wants to

:42:40.:42:45.

stay within the EU. There is a sense of unreality today. People cannot

:42:46.:42:48.

quite believe their southern neighbours would be such worlds

:42:49.:42:54.

apart. I cannot believe we have done this. I am very scared. Especially

:42:55.:42:59.

with the Tory government that we have. I think especially in

:43:00.:43:04.

Scotland, we do not have much of the boys in the UK at all. Do you feel

:43:05.:43:09.

that we are very different in Scotland from England? Yes, there is

:43:10.:43:17.

going to be a split. In and out. The roots of our relations with Europe

:43:18.:43:21.

are long and steep, the old reliance, the treaty between the

:43:22.:43:23.

Scots and the French were signed in the 13th century and Scotland has a

:43:24.:43:28.

long tradition of sending its sons and daughters overseas, all over the

:43:29.:43:32.

world, and we, in turn, have welcomed many different nations you-

:43:33.:43:37.

Russians, Italians, Pakistanis, and immigration does not seem to be the

:43:38.:43:41.

same issue here as it is south of the border. Why is it that

:43:42.:43:45.

immigration does not seem to be such an issue as it is in England? I

:43:46.:43:51.

think that Scotland as a race of people are more multicultural, our

:43:52.:43:55.

culture is more varied, if you think about storytelling and music,

:43:56.:43:59.

anything like that, I think that we are more accepting of new ideas. Are

:44:00.:44:03.

you Scottish or French? Neither, I am Italian! Italian! And tell me,

:44:04.:44:14.

you feel welcome in Scotland? This morning, when it came out of my

:44:15.:44:17.

flat, I was feeling a little bit less welcome. But I think that they

:44:18.:44:25.

voted for staying. I think I will try to feel welcome anyway because I

:44:26.:44:32.

am welcome, maybe! In six weeks, the eyes of the world will be on

:44:33.:44:35.

Edinburgh for another reason- people will come from over the world to the

:44:36.:44:39.

biggest international arts festival on the planet. And the festival was

:44:40.:44:43.

set up in the wake of the Second World War to encourage cultural

:44:44.:44:46.

relations between Scotland, Britain and Europe to make sure that another

:44:47.:44:53.

war in Europe would be unimaginable. Nicola Sturgeon made it clear that

:44:54.:44:57.

she wants to build a consensus in the country around referendum. Now

:44:58.:45:01.

it is possible that senior figures from other political parties would

:45:02.:45:05.

be part of that consensus. Referring, finally, to live in an

:45:06.:45:10.

independent Scotland within the EU rather than in an increasingly this

:45:11.:45:13.

United Kingdom divorced from the EU. Now Scotland-England is one division

:45:14.:45:18.

- young and old another. There's an anger in large

:45:19.:45:23.

parts of the country, parts that have not felt blessed

:45:24.:45:27.

by the benefits of globalisation in contrast to bustling metropolitan

:45:28.:45:29.

hubs like London or Manchester And that schism

:45:30.:45:32.

has asserted itself to the shock Filmmaker Nick Blakemore spent

:45:33.:45:42.

the last couple of days in Burnley, which voted two-thirds for Brexit,

:45:43.:45:46.

to see what was motivating We won't lose control,

:45:47.:45:48.

we have lost control. For me it comes down to,

:45:49.:45:55.

when we vote somebody in, whoever gets into the government,

:45:56.:46:01.

they make the rules. And at the moment there

:46:02.:46:03.

is somebody above them. That's why I'm going

:46:04.:46:05.

to be voting to leave. What really gets me is this,

:46:06.:46:08.

I fought for this country in 82. This government now is going,

:46:09.:46:11.

immigrants, here you go, tick, I don't want it,

:46:12.:46:26.

send them back home. We joined the EU

:46:27.:46:29.

for one thing, yeah? And then it comes to light,

:46:30.:46:31.

it's not a better life. Vote for hope, that was the thing

:46:32.:46:41.

in the paper. You can't vote for hope,

:46:42.:46:44.

there's no hope nowadays. We've had enough of the Tory

:46:45.:46:49.

scenario, the The minute this referendum

:46:50.:46:53.

is over and if Remain I think we should

:46:54.:47:03.

leave and give it a try and we should get our

:47:04.:47:18.

independence back because it's just It has, I've got to admit,

:47:19.:47:20.

it's the one thing, it came down to democracy,

:47:21.:47:30.

sovereignty, and the NHS. There is a lot of people come from

:47:31.:47:34.

abroad and they've done good for I was born in Germany,

:47:35.:47:40.

I'm a foreigner myself. We are not little Englanders.

:47:41.:47:45.

We've always looked outwards. England was the greatest

:47:46.:47:48.

thing I've ever known when I came over here and you were

:47:49.:47:58.

free and if you worked hard you got I've never had a day's

:47:59.:48:01.

benefit, I've never had I'm 83 years of age

:48:02.:48:06.

and all I can get is Not that I need it,

:48:07.:48:10.

I've got food in my belly, I'm getting by and I'm

:48:11.:48:14.

not complaining. When I look round there

:48:15.:48:16.

is a lot of folk worse. But I do object to people who have

:48:17.:48:21.

worked all their life, just None of us know what

:48:22.:48:24.

the future holds. I think that's why everyone

:48:25.:48:27.

is undecided. My main point is,

:48:28.:48:31.

you can't base your argument on a country and an entire

:48:32.:48:33.

superstate that hasn't got your best That's my main reason

:48:34.:48:36.

for leaving, who else is going to look after our country

:48:37.:48:44.

but us? Good evening, and

:48:45.:48:46.

welcome at the end of this momentous day when each one

:48:47.:49:00.

of us has had the chance to say what At 10pm the polling stations close

:49:01.:49:03.

after weeks, months, years of The BBC is forecasting that the UK

:49:04.:49:08.

has voted to leave the European Union after

:49:09.:49:15.

more than 40 years. Good morning.

:49:16.:49:21.

Hello. Come on in.

:49:22.:49:24.

Come out first. I don't know yet, I haven't

:49:25.:49:26.

switched it on, I've put Fingers crossed I'm not

:49:27.:49:33.

going to look stupid. Really?

:49:34.:49:38.

Seriously? Tanya, just tell me what's

:49:39.:49:42.

your reaction to that? I'm over the moon,

:49:43.:49:51.

I don't know what to say. Everybody woke up in time.

:49:52.:49:53.

Everybody listened. Everybody understands, yes,

:49:54.:50:03.

it's going to be rough at the Some views from Burnley. With me,

:50:04.:50:28.

two historians, David Starkey and Kate Williams, from the Times

:50:29.:50:31.

newspaper Tim on Connery and writer and equality campaign Paris leads.

:50:32.:50:37.

What is your reaction as you listened to that? I recognise those

:50:38.:50:42.

towns, that's where and from command they will be upset when they find

:50:43.:50:47.

out they've been lied to. They've been lied to. People voted with good

:50:48.:50:52.

intentions but we are being led down a very dark path. Let's asked

:50:53.:50:56.

whether the nation is in some way historically unusually divided.

:50:57.:51:02.

Kate, are we in... We are incredibly divided, this is one of the most

:51:03.:51:06.

divisive events since the Civil War and the most historical events since

:51:07.:51:10.

the act of union itself. We see divisions between North and South,

:51:11.:51:13.

young and old and the fact Scotland will have a referendum. Northern

:51:14.:51:17.

Ireland, there are concerns about Martin McGuinness saying joining

:51:18.:51:22.

together and we know the Scottish referendum will trigger questions

:51:23.:51:26.

about the referendum in Wales so we are seeing massive divisions. When

:51:27.:51:29.

we see a petition getting lots of people's signatures saying London

:51:30.:51:32.

might set up as a different city state. I think it is a joke!

:51:33.:51:38.

LAUGHTER I'm not entirely sure, there is some

:51:39.:51:42.

joking in it but that shows the level of the division. It is huge.

:51:43.:51:47.

You are both Remainers and you are both Brexit supporters, David, do

:51:48.:51:50.

you think the nation is historically divided? It is but I think Kate is

:51:51.:51:57.

slightly exaggerating, I can think Ireland, Roman Catholicism, I can

:51:58.:52:00.

think of all sorts of things that have split us a map even the whole

:52:01.:52:04.

question of whether we fought the Nazis or not, the country was hugely

:52:05.:52:09.

divided. The more interesting question is why this has happened.

:52:10.:52:14.

It seemed to me your Burnley film was absolutely right. What has

:52:15.:52:17.

happened is the European Union is a proxy. It's a proxy for deep

:52:18.:52:23.

discontent with experts, with the political class and so on. I think

:52:24.:52:29.

it is also the fact that the political parties have been led, for

:52:30.:52:33.

the last nearly 20 years by leaders, Blair on the one hand and Cameron on

:52:34.:52:37.

the other, that thought it was very clever to kick their supporters in

:52:38.:52:43.

the goolies. Was at the right thing to get out of it if it is just a

:52:44.:52:47.

proxy, you are implying, let's kick something, the EU is over there,

:52:48.:52:52.

let's do that? A lot of people voted on that basis, I think. It's very

:52:53.:52:56.

important we recognise that, which of course also allows for the kind

:52:57.:53:00.

of point Daniel Hannan was making that perhaps we could begin to

:53:01.:53:05.

reunite as a very real possibility. I think that what we've got to do is

:53:06.:53:09.

something which no recent government has had the courage to do. We've got

:53:10.:53:13.

a rediscovery sense of international interest. Britain has spent the

:53:14.:53:19.

whole of its time arguing with got to be good, with got to support

:53:20.:53:23.

European rights because otherwise the Russians will misbehave. We've

:53:24.:53:28.

really got to start to do a Goodall. The voters we saw in Burnley are the

:53:29.:53:33.

ones political parties are finding it difficult to reach, any political

:53:34.:53:37.

party -- Charles de Gaulle. What is the answer to that? They are not

:53:38.:53:42.

natural Conservative voters, your party is nowhere near them. Sure,

:53:43.:53:46.

and you talk about Britain being divided but I'm based in Washington

:53:47.:53:50.

for the times these paper and I'm seeing the whole Trump phenomenon

:53:51.:53:53.

over there, we are all seeing the whole Trump phenomenon in. We are

:53:54.:53:57.

six or seven years after the global crash and immediately after the

:53:58.:54:01.

global crash people wanted governments to stabilise the

:54:02.:54:03.

situation but now there is the hunger for reform and remedy. I

:54:04.:54:08.

think we are seeing that right across the world. Today's revolt,

:54:09.:54:13.

yesterday's revolt by Tour of Britain is, and they were the

:54:14.:54:16.

overwhelming explanation for why we are leaving the European Union, that

:54:17.:54:20.

has to be heeded. This isn't just a vote to leave the European Union,

:54:21.:54:24.

this is a cry for help from a huge proportion of our publisher who

:54:25.:54:26.

think all attacks isn't working for them. It is to do with austerity, I

:54:27.:54:32.

agree but Wales has 500 million subsidy and huge votes against, we

:54:33.:54:38.

didn't hear much talk about sovereignty in the same way and the

:54:39.:54:43.

concern is this will not give the people what they want. You are

:54:44.:54:46.

making an elementary confusion. No, I'm not. You are assuming the

:54:47.:54:52.

economy is what always mattered. Austerity is tied up with the

:54:53.:54:55.

economy. What this photo shows is that it is culture that matters --

:54:56.:55:02.

what this vote shows. Politicians connecting with voters, Jo Cox did

:55:03.:55:10.

it well and SNP in Scotland. Labour and Conservatives must put up their

:55:11.:55:14.

hands and admit they are not getting it right. Your point about the

:55:15.:55:18.

voters in Burnley, at the moment they are floating voters, the

:55:19.:55:23.

Conservative leader who was as clever as Disraeli. Remember,

:55:24.:55:28.

Disraeli captured the working man's vote in 1867 and there is the

:55:29.:55:31.

possibility now of a Boris or another charismatic politician.

:55:32.:55:40.

Let's ask if you think Boris is a healing politician? Horace's speech

:55:41.:55:47.

was extraordinary, it wasn't a victory speech, I think he realises

:55:48.:55:51.

he's got it wrong and this is really serious -- Boris's speech. I hope we

:55:52.:55:55.

can have another referendum. Bad loser! I think I'd rather be a bad

:55:56.:56:03.

loser, I've got more important things to worry about. People feel

:56:04.:56:07.

they have been lied to. People have been lied to. There is so much more

:56:08.:56:11.

voter regret than I've seen before. It is a clear illustration of why

:56:12.:56:15.

the vote went why it did. People will be surprised with Boris

:56:16.:56:19.

Johnson, he's probably the likely next Prime Minister of this country.

:56:20.:56:22.

If you look at his record, he was championing the Living Wage before

:56:23.:56:26.

other Conservatives. Same-sex marriage. He opposed the tax credit

:56:27.:56:30.

cuts George Osborne proposed, he's a more interesting conservative than

:56:31.:56:34.

people think. We have talked about the Burnley divide and the

:56:35.:56:37.

metropolitan elite, but what about the generational divide? It is

:56:38.:56:41.

striking, the under 45 Sam voted to stay in and be over 45 is to stay

:56:42.:56:51.

out. There was a debate on Radio 5 live called grandma, what have you

:56:52.:56:57.

done? The older generation don't have to live here as long as the

:56:58.:57:02.

younger generation. Should we introduce a cut-off point beyond

:57:03.:57:09.

which you can't vote? Your sense of sublime self entitlement. Are we

:57:10.:57:13.

going to have those under 35 with two votes? We have had so much taken

:57:14.:57:21.

away from us, I don't have to have my airtime taken away as well! You

:57:22.:57:26.

haven't answered my question. You are not letting me because you are

:57:27.:57:29.

interrupting me because you are a privileged white man who wants to

:57:30.:57:33.

speak over me and this is the problem. Young people are getting

:57:34.:57:36.

sick of it, sick of being spoken over and six of being patronised. We

:57:37.:57:40.

have to pay for our education in a way that your generation didn't have

:57:41.:57:45.

too. Everything that gets taken away, young people are being cut

:57:46.:57:49.

off. I think there is a lot of frustration and for young people

:57:50.:57:53.

Europe is somewhere we go on holiday and go clubbing, we don't have this

:57:54.:57:57.

xenophobia. The young vote will be vital in Scotland, they gave the

:57:58.:58:00.

vote to 16-year-olds and they were massive in the turnout. I noticed

:58:01.:58:06.

Nigel Farage say, we can engage with the Commonwealth but I've watched

:58:07.:58:09.

the Australian media who said today, why are we still linked to this

:58:10.:58:13.

country that will be diminished, lose Scotland, possibly Wales and

:58:14.:58:16.

the Commonwealth is due for the chop as well. This is not... Be careful

:58:17.:58:22.

what you wish for is the message. In our relationship with Europe we have

:58:23.:58:27.

a situation where people from Africa, Asia, Australasia, have

:58:28.:58:31.

second-class status when it comes to coming into Britain, we prioritise

:58:32.:58:35.

Europeans. The problem with with Little Britain is little

:58:36.:58:40.

Europeanism. There will not be a Britain in ten years! That's about

:58:41.:58:42.

it. Normally we are meant to be

:58:43.:58:44.

the quietly stable, pragmatic nation that doesn't do revolutions

:58:45.:58:48.

or chop people's heads off. But we will be back

:58:49.:58:51.

with a special programme And right now, or as soon as I can

:58:52.:58:56.

get to the Green Room, Go to our Facebook page,

:58:57.:59:01.

ask questions there. A few of us will be talking

:59:02.:59:08.

through the day.

:59:09.:59:12.

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