24/06/2016 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis. So... now what?

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 24/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



Well, at 4.40am, we can now say that...


The people of the United Kingdom have voted to leave


I'm not going to be here a lot longer, I'm nearly 80.


Well, by about ten o'clock, I would say, would be about right!


I do not think it would be right for me to try to be the captain


that steers our country to its next destination.


Are you not worried about what you're hearing this morning?


About David Cameron resigning or the strength of the pound?


A letter of no confidence has been tabled with Jeremy Corbyn.


We will begin to prepare the legislation that


would be required to enable a new independence referendum.


Anybody that doesn't think this is big stuff needs


I'm kind of thinking of moving to another country.


It is no longer right for this country.


Because the French don't like us and the Germans don't


I don't know what's got to happen next.


We've got nowt, so what can get worse?


It's the biggest financial story since the crash, a huge political


story, a once in a generation foreign politcy shift,


all in one day - not to mention the constitutional


We can keep calm, but carrying on as before, not really possible.


The enormity of what has happened has been sinking into voters


We mustn't over interpret the result.


If one in 50 of all voters had switched from Leave to Remain, we'd


But we mustn't under-interpret it either, and all that it represents.


Is this the first vote ever to say it's NOT the economy


The latest of a wave of insurrections sweeping the West.


A challenge to the established order and the political class.


The discontented getting their own back.


Or should you view it as an inter-generational struggle?


The polls showing under 45s voted in and over 45s wanted us out.


And there's an aftermath of bitterness.


One young man's tweet: "I'm so angry", he said.


"A generation given everything - free education, golden pensions,


social mobility - have voted to strip my generation's future".


For some, it comes down to nothing less than a culture war.


So who's corrupt? Europe.


Youthful urban liberals versus older social conservatives.


The former worry that Britain will now turn its back


The latter think it's time for their voice to be heard again.


It's not as clean-cut as that, but that's where the argument goes -


Well, it's for the history books to argue about the causes


We're going to do something different tonight.


What's next for politics in this country?


The two major parties both looking battered, both with leadership


How will the EU now choose to treat us?


And how does our decision affect the EU?


And what's next for the UK, with Scotland voting


Well, of the three "what nexts", politics comes first,


At a turbulent time like this, it would be great to


have a Nelson Mandela to take over, heal the wounds, articulate a vision


for the country and negotiate a new arrangement with goodwill


Well, Donald Trump flew into Britain today, but he's not available.


It is an awful time to be a mainstream politician.


I'm going to be talking to some of them in a minute.


But first, I'm here with our political editor, Nick Watt.


In Westminster this morning, shock? They were shell-shocked in Downing


Street. They had a simple thought, Project Fear would deliver a second


referendum when what we saw power and authority seeping away from


Number 10 a number 11 Downing St, he might have thought that the


Chancellor would calm down the market but that job was left to the


Governor of the Bank of England and he had a couple of tweets from the


Chancellor. We were talking to one Whitehall source who, like a number


ten to do not, the Centre has fallen apart. They went on to say, no


communication from Number 10, we assume they have gone to the pub.


As dawn broke today, written a look to the most momentous shuffling of


the political order since the Second World War. The Suez Canal...


Evaluation of sterling, the defenestration of Margaret Thatcher.


We are leaving Downing Street... Arguably, they were trumped today


when Britain stumbled out of the EU. Overturning for decades of


assumptions about Britain's place in Europe was of an order of such


magnitude that it made the resignation of the sitting Prime


Minister a second order issue. David Cameron's voice cracked as he


announced his departure. I love this country. And I feel honoured to have


served it. And I will do everything I can in future to help this great


country succeed. Thank you very much. Any hope of a Roman style


triumph were soon crushed- Boris Johnson greeted by protesters as he


left his house. The Prime Minister's nemesis looked funereal at the death


of what they have achieved something. I want to begin by paying


tribute to David Cameron, they had spoken earlier from Downing Street,


and I know that I speak for Michael in saying how sad I am that he has


decided to step down but obviously, I respect that decision. Johnson


owns the next few months but his hopes of reaching Number 10 might


hinge on whether his assurances of a seamless transition to life outside


the EU country. Michael Gove insists he has no interest in leadership but


a fellow Leave campaigner is not sure. The Conservative party has so


many talented people, dozens come to mind but my top three would be


Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Andrea Leadsom. Will the next


Conservative prime ministers be for Brexit? The Prime Minister stood


down because he failed that having backed Remain he cannot increment


the will of the people expressed in the referendum, but applies to


anyone else who supported Remain. Within months the circus will have


moved on but for the moment David Cameron finds himself at the hostage


to his former allies as he accepts their timetable for a British exit


from the EU. David Cameron hoped to end his Premiership as one of the


great Conservative social reformers but instead, he finds our ebbing


away. I am not sure if I recall this a zombie government but it feels


more like a caretaker government for the next few months. We had a


government with a massive legislative agenda with prison and


NHS reform and Universal Credit, and a lot of that has been on hold


because of the referendum. Now, because of the leadership campaign,


we have a Prime Minister effectively an interim Prime Minister for


months, and because of summer and the concerns about the EU, what will


happen with negotiations, even more will probably be in abeyance for the


time being. You wait an age for a leadership crisis and then two of


them come along. If you are worse after the Prime Minister announced


plans to resign, two veteran Labour MPs said they would lay the ground


for a challenge to Jeremy Corbyn. Others share those concerns. I


understand that motion and the concerns of Margaret and other


colleagues. Of looking at the results of yesterday. We went into


this referendum campaign expecting 70 or 80% of Labour supporters and


voters to vote Remain and we barely got 50% and if he cannot demonstrate


after this massive test that the Labour Party can retrieve ground,


there are more problems ahead, we could have a General Election in six


months and at the moment, it's on the outcome of yesterday, it is not


looking good for the Labour Party and his leadership. We got the


country back! It was Independence Day for the winners but the most


unashamedly pro-EU party said that Britain should not give up on its


European destiny. We heard Nigel Farage ungraciously before the


result when he thought he had lost saying there could be a second


referendum. I will not say that. If things change as the months go by


and public opinion significantly changes, we must make sure we keep


all options open and we must not shackle ourselves to the corpse of a


Brexit government. For some, the European dream will never die. But


for another generation, at least, Britain's European journey is at an


end. Here with me, the former


Tory Chancellor, Ken Clarke, Suzanne Evans from Vote Leave


and Tristram Hunt, the Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent,


which voted to leave the EU with one of the biggest margins


in the country. Ken Clarke, 46 years in politics,


all devoted to the European project, you must feel gutted? I do, I


started as a very active Conservative student politician


supporting Harold Wilson's first bid to join the European Community so it


is ironic that 50 years later, this erotic argument is still going on


and we are leaving the European Union. I actually, deliberately,


have tried to control my annoyance and anger and distress. Because at


the moment, we have to decide what we do next, which I think is what


the programme is about. We have a caretaker government with no policy


of any kind on what our relationship is going to be in the outside world


or Europe in particular. We do not know what we shall do about


immigration but a lot of people were told to be very frightened. And I


think, I have to count to ten and wonder what the devil do after this


extraordinary, very narrow result. Can I ask a personal reflection? Ed


Miliband last year stood against a government and he said, I am better


for business because not gone to risk the nation's departure from the


European Union. You must have thought, it would be better if Ed


Miliband had won the 20 15th election? I do not think that! My


generation thinks referendums are absurd way of running the country


but there was no point in emphasising that once we have gone


out to have one and no point in emphasising that right now because


we have had one and we are where we are and everybody on both sides and


I'm sure people on both sides feel as passionately as I do, the country


at the moment is in a period of great uncertainty. It needs a


government, it needs a government that can start getting on the


business of running the country and several crises again and it needs to


decide, as we have to negotiate with the EU, what exactly do we want?


Quickly, the other two of you, do you think a General Election is


required at this time of time? I would say no, I am ecstatic at the


result but Iraq and that any half of the country voted the other way and


will be quite worried and I have spoken to build today who have


concerns about where we go next and I have been doing their best to


reassure them. I think General Election, for me, would bring


another level of uncertainty, which is best avoided. General Election?


There is a high likelihood if we have a new leader of the


Conservative party, they will want to develop their own mandate so


whether we have an election in autumn or in spring, and what they


have to go to the country on his the article 50 strategy. There is a


serious risk of an election and I cannot quite see at the moment how


the government can reform with a Parliamentary majority to make the


kind of changes that most of those four Brexit want. They do not know.


I think to go into a General Election would add to the risks of


where we are more uncertainty and chaos and another daft and dreadful


campaign. With a very indecisive result, that would be disastrous.


Who should be the next Prime Minister, before we hear from you,


who do you think, Tristram Hunt? The next leader of the Conservative


party? From the Labour Party perspective, I would regard or as


Johnson as a very successful celebrity candidate. A very clever


man. He has used that intelligence to appeal to some very basic


instincts. Alongside Michael Gove, he would seek to deliver a very


neoliberal Tory Brexit. I don't want any of them. Is that all right?


Suzanne Evans? It has to be somebody passionate about Brexit and with a


clear vision. Not Theresa May? I would say not. It is a shame because


she was one of the frontrunners and I think that she come out for ten


one. Andrea Leadsom has been one of the standout stars. And Chancellor


for sure. Because nobody has the first idea of what the economic


policy of the government is now supposed to be... Nobody has a first


idea. What we are saying about immigrants and what we're not


saying, there is a danger the country will fill around with


another leadership election, having... It does. We need a


balanced government, headed by somebody of balanced views and not


somebody who is good at foot opportunities. And we need people


who can settle down to the serious business of government. -- photo


opportunities. Theresa May? The referendum campaign, when not


washing immigrants, was Boris and David, and the British, they have


caused a crisis for half of the Western world, if they decide to


have a fun Conservative leadership battle... That is hyperbole!


Are you going to give us a name? Let's turn to Szczecin hunt, the


Tories are fighting with each other and Labour are fighting with the


voters, which is a much more dangerous place for the party. This


referendum exposed tensions in the Labour Party and labour movement and


where you see in Stoke-on-Trent 70-30 out and contrast that with


some of the votes in Brighton, Bristol, Norwich, or Exeter, other


Labour areas, we have got this divide between our traditional


working class Labour communities who felt real pressure on the


globalisation over the last ten years, felt pressure on wages levels


from immigration, feel discontent about the level of change, versus as


you said in your intro... I understand the problems you are


describing but it's an enormous problem for a political party to


find out half of its base is basically completely at odds with it


and doesn't view the world in the same way at all. And we have had


these problems in the past and Ken will know there are any number of


books called What's Wrong With Labour, Will It Ever Come Back? If


you have somebody with a social democratic view who people trust and


want to put their country in the trust of you can overcome these


problems, no doubt. Jeremy Corbyn, does he meet that job description?


Ken said an interesting thing about the serious business of government.


We now face really serious, tough and difficult times. This is a


national crisis and the job of opposition, rather like John Smith


during the Maastricht Treaty, is to provide strategic vision and


forensic detail. Jeremy Corbyn is very, very good at energising the


base and making those who are already convinced of Labour ideals


feel better about themselves. Whether he is the man to make sure


that Labour values are at the core of every negotiation strategy. A lot


of people think he's not the right man for the job. Whether he is the


right man to have the Labour values at the core of the re-negotiation


strategy, I'm not convinced he has those capacities. Suzanne Evans,


there is a problem with trust of politicians, isn't there? That's one


of the reasons you've done very well. When exactly will be get the


?350 million extra per week spent on the NHS you promised for the whole


campaign? When will that happen? It has gone already. We actually


promised 100 million specifically for the NHS. I saw one thing, 350


million for the NHS. I saw it on a bus. We said 350 million to spend on


our own priorities like the NHS. And then a specific proposal for the NHS


which was 100 million and that's the kind of cash injection the NHS needs


and it's fantastic to have this money back. When will we have the


100 million a week? Into a three years' time. Do you not think the


possibility is that the things that have brought mainstream politicians


into such disrepute and low regard and lack of trust and nothing they


say is believed is now about to hit you and all of those who made that


case? I don't think so, the British electorate made their decision. They


were looking at the asterisk, which wasn't there, that said read this


very carefully. The campaign was dreadful. The public got angry and


confused. They were no better informed when they finished them


when they started, which is why lots of older people in particular were


angry with the politicians and antiestablishment and a lot of this


is a protest vote. The worst thing they did was talk about these Syrian


refugees, Britain has complete control about how many Syrians come


over here. On Wednesday and we do now, it's nothing to do with the EU


whether they are admitted and settle there. Had a poster with thousands


of them streaming in. It was disgusting. Let's not go back over


it. Winnie Byanyima man to unite the party and the country and we need a


policy and the sooner the better. -- we need the right man. Thank you all


very much. Of course, alongside


the politics is economics. Famously, we like to describe


ourselves as the fifth largest Today, we came close


to being the sixth. So when you convert our pound-based


national income into dollars, The financial gyrations


were considerable and some companies' shares were pummelled


in the expectation that things Our business editor,


Helen Thomas, is here. Helen, take us through some of those


gyrations. So, you heard about the meltdown, there is ample cause for


concern but the odd crumb of comfort also. The pound, our best barometer


for the overall confidence in the UK economy. You can see that it surged


higher as hopes built for a Remain victory last night and then it


plunged, a huge move for a currency. I've never seen it move like that!


Late in the day it found a level, around 1.37 to the dollar and


similar story on the stock markets. Here you can see a very dramatic


drop at the open of the markets. Just over on the left. Both for the


FTSE 100 and the more UK focused 250. Banks and property stocks


hard-hit but then the markets came back and recovered. So what we


didn't see was this sort of downward panicked spiral that would indicate


a total loss of confidence in the UK. Having said that, it was a


really tough day and that reflects investors marking down there outlook


for the UK. Some might say the worrying thing is not getting


through the next week, it's the longer term. We may be in this slow


grinding process of figuring out what the economic hit is going to


be. We know some of the areas of concern because the Bank of England


helpfully told us last week. They said while consumer spending has


been solid, there is grabbing evidence that uncertainty about the


referendum is leading to delays to major economic decisions. They


mentioned a commercial and real estate transactions, car purchases


and business investment. In those sectors that were slowing, the


shutters come down. That is the concern. Most analysts believe we


need to slow down, possibly a recession. Let's leave the idea of a


crisis, you can still have an ugly outcome. If business and hiring


dries up quickly, you could see business was already falling into


the vote, in that scenario unemployment starts to rise and


people worry about jobs, banks pull back on lending, partly because they


are worried about loans being repaid and that hits confidence and


consumer spending. Meanwhile, a weaker currency means higher


inflation and the Bank of England which targets inflation may not feel


it Kammy act aggressively to stimulate the economy. It does get


confusing. Is there any more sanguine scenario you can paint. --


it can act aggressively. A weaker pound could boost exports. More


importantly the Bank of England might say we are not going to worry


about inflation right now, we are going to look through that, they


could cut rates and stimulate the economy in other ways and maybe they


have enough tools in their toolkit to do that. The irony is that the


Governor Mark Carney who has had a pretty tired dot-mac hard time of


late, his crucial to how this pans out. -- a pretty hard time.


The next of our What Nows is Europe itself.


After the French revolution, other royal families worried


about how to keep their heads, there's a bit of that


If any eurocrats were still harbouring dreams of creating


a European superstate, Britain has shown that the old


concept of the nation state is not going down without a fight.


Critically there is the looming question of what our relationship


with the EU might be. Our diplomatic editor


Mark Urban is in Brussels. Good evening.


The thing that is defining attitudes here is a fear of contagion. Will


Heard Marine Le Pen, some Dutch Eurosceptics and others as well in


Europe welcoming today's result, but none of them are in power right now.


And none of them is in a position to deliver an in-out referendum in


another European country any time soon. But the attitude that seems to


be dominant here, we have certainly heard some of the big hitters in the


Brussels machine voicing this attitude, is that Brexit should


happen not just quickly but in a very tough or exemplary way. In


other words, they want the other countries in Europe that may be


watching to see the Brits go out on very tough terms. Fascinating


insights tonight from Wolfgang Schreiber, the German finance


minister, very influential, a leaked Brexit plan of his suggests trade


terms and an association agreement not like Norway, as some people


discussed in the UK, not like Switzerland, more the sort of deal


that Turkey or Canada might be negotiating in the latter case. Very


tough terms, all to do with trying to head off a risk, which even last


night and was nobody in this town really had got to grips with the


idea of what was about to hit it. they woke up to the day that


ever-closer union died. Across the airwaves and in many


languages, that dread news sank in. With markets plunging


across many countries, the woman styled Queen Europe


by some called for calm. TRANSLATION: What the outcome


of this watershed will mean to us in the coming days,


weeks, months and years If we, the other 27 member states


of the European Union, are capable and willing not to rush


into any quick and easy decisions which would only further


disunite Europe. But if we're capable and willing


to assess the situation calmly and soberly in order to come


to a joint decision on this basis. At the Commission, leaders


of the European institutions met And, very soon, it became clear


that there would be no further We are already hearing voices


here from the other 27 members of the EU that they should force


the pace of Brexit in order to protect their own economies


and political systems. And now we're going to hear


from the bosses of the union's big institutions, and it'll be


fascinating to see to what extent they think the union should drive


a tough exit bargain with the UK. For the man running the European


bureaucracy, even the words to describe this moment


seemed to stick. The British people expressed


its views on their... We now expect the United Kingdom


government to give effect to this decision of the British people


as soon as possible. As for what it meant


for the remaining 27, watch this. REPORTER: Is this the beginning


of the end of the European Union? Blunt but very much


to the liking of the non-British So, Europe is in the deepest


of crises as consultations begin And there are already suggestions


by many players here that any deal should be exemplary,


with the UK denied access It is a consequence of the British


vote because the single market, or the European Economic Area,


includes also the free That was the problem


in the referendum. So I think that the only way


to establish any relationship between Britain and the European


Union is using a trade agreement. Like Europe has trade agreements


with a number of countries. There are those who favour more


generalist terms, but so far There is a statue just


outside the commission. And on the day that the Brexit


earthquake hit this town, Earlier I was joined


by Jonathan Powell, Tony Blair's Did he think the decision


to leave was irreversible or was there a still a route


where Britain could retain its Well, I think this was a vote


against something rather than a vote It was a vote against our current


relationship with the EU but it wasn't a vote for what sort


of new relationship we should have. So I must say I think David Cameron


is right to delay the start of negotiations until there


is a new Prime Minister. But I would go further than that,


I think any new Prime Minister needs


a mandate for a negotiation. He has to set out what he is for,


what sort of new relationship are we


going to have with EU? I think that's very,


very important that they get that I don't think you can


really start negotiations until there has been


an election, not just the choice


of a new Tory leader. So, hang on, is it possible


a party could go into an election saying we are in, we're


just going to ignore the referendum and we'll just


negotiate us to remain? Of course you can, that's


what elections are about. You go for an election in a mandate,


one of the many reasons Mrs Thatcher was


against referenda was because she thought you should decide this


in representative democracy But the main point here is this


is a vote against something, The Brexiteers were


completely divided on what they wanted,


no one knows what they mean. So someone has got to set out


a positive mandate and A lot of the Europeans


are saying they The path you are


describing, and indeed the path that the Leave campaign has


been describing is one that takes We will be waiting months before


the negotiation gets going. Do you think we can really


keep our European David Cameron has already set out


the timetable as far It's only us who can start


Article 50, not them. So I totally understand why


they wanted to be quick, because the uncertainty


is hurting them, not just us. But in the end they


are going to have to wait for us and I think we would be


sensible - A, to have a negotiating position,


B, to have a new Prime Minister, and C, for


that Prime Minister to have a mandate


for his negotiating. This is really important


about our future. You can't just go in there not clear


what you want. The other critical thing is,


how hardball do you think Because, already we've heard some


reports saying the Norway option, forget it, you're not


going to get the Norway option, that's not


on the What do you think


the European Union, what line do you think


they They are not going to try and punish


us because they want to have good The point is that they


have their interests. They are going to meet at 27


without us next week to start working out


what their position is. Their main priority is to keep


the EU together, to stop the So there are not going to offer


us anything that will encourage the Dutch or the Finns


for the Danes to leave. So they are not going to offer us


a super deal outside the EU because otherwise


they will start losing other people. They've got to take


care of their interests and we've got to fight


for And bluffing, do you think there has


been some bluff over the last few weeks in the run-up


to the referendum? If you remember, Boris


Johnson said before he became the leader


of the Brexit campaign, he said his


preferred option would be to have a new negotiation and a new


referendum, and that the referendum So I'm hoping that he


becomes leader of the Tory party, which are not hoping,


but if he does then he will have that mandate, he can go off and make


an negotiation and then have a new Remember, the Irish have done


that twice this century. They voted against the treaty,


had a It seems very unlikely


at the moment, the EU saying no to it,


the Brexit campaign saying no to it, but that is one option when we go


forward and when people realise quite how


ghastly the alternatives are. We've been talking


about Britain and its Let's just briefly talk


about the EU itself. How dangerous is the British vote


for the existence of the EU? Well, it is a threat


to the existence of the EU because it's going


to encourage other Eurosceptics, and you can see who the friends


of the Eurosceptics are, people


like Le Pen, people like Trump. Those sort of people are going to be


agitating to break Europe up. And of course, European


governments are going to resist that, so it is


a Even leaving that to one side,


what's going to happen to Europe without Britain is it's


going to become less liberal, it's going to become more


integrated and it's going to become more German


and that's going to worry


lots of countries in Europe. That's why they wanted


us to stay in. That's an inevitable consequence


of us leaving. Christine, how does this look from


France the safety? It looks pretty ghastly. -- this evening. But


listening to be very interesting discussion you just had, I think you


should not underestimate the determination of the key member


states on the continent not to let the British play the fiddle to


determine the timetable. We should just sit and wait for them to


actually act. It will very much depend on what happens on Monday


when Angela Merkel meets in Berlin with Francois Hollande, the Italian


Prime Minister and Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council.


You will hear what the tone will be and, again, as has been said by your


Brussels correspondent, there is a series of meetings next week and,


again, the EU had been functioning for 17 years before Britain was


accepted. I think there is a degree of arrogance at times, if I may, at


this late hour in the night, to think we shall disintegrate after


this rather ghastly result. Can I wish you, David Cameron is stepping


down, it will take three months to collect a new Prime Minister and


leader of the Conservative party, nobody feels that David Cameron can


do the negotiation, you will have to wait for three months before this


starts? Yes. You think that people in Brussels or just sit and wait? I


think the process will be so, located, the economic and financial


costs, we have seen nothing today, of course the kind lost a great deal


of value and the markets will be shaken for quite some time. -- the


pound. There will be a lot of work being done in the meantime and it is


not going to be done by the snap of a finger but, again, on the


continent, there was also this idea that the British, especially the


older generation, the ones who really have deprived the young ones


of the benefits of Europe, they are going to feel the brunt of this and


that is something which, on the continent, will be closely watched,


especially by Eastern European countries, which might, I remember,


Britain wanted so much inside the EU and the night complain about


immigration from Eastern Europe. Dan Hammond, they do not want us to take


time. They want us to get on with it? Perfectly reasonable? You have


answer that, we will have to wait until there is somebody to do those


negotiations. Getting this right matters much more than the time and


they getting it right, I mean by being fair to our allies on the


continent as well as getting a deal in our own interests and it would be


crazy to rush into something after 43 years at the expense of getting


something mutually satisfactory. Jonathan Powell said we need to have


an election, we have not yet worked out the model? One of the reasons


that muscles is so unpopular because it is seen to be contemptuous of


public opinion and it is incredible that less than 24 hours after the


result we have already got people trying to undo this, but what I


would say, to soften what I have just said a little bit, plainly we


have referred it to say but are going to leave the EU, it was a


narrow majority, 48% of people voting to stay in and Scotland


voting to stay in, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar, we on the winning


side have to be cognisant of the extent to which opinion is divided


and carry as many remain voters as possible and that might mean that


quite a lot of the existing arrangements remain in place as we


try to find a status that both sides can agree to. It sounds like you, I


do not know if you are smoking for Vote Leave or Boris Johnson, it


sounds like you are veering towards the Norway option? A compromise? In


the single market? My issue with the EU has been a lack of sovereignty


and democracy. Of course, there are economic issues. It would not


exactly be no way, we are different country, 65 million, but the idea of


staying within it, market but outside the political integration,


that is usable. And it means free movement of Labour, not EU


citizenship with all of those acquired rights. We have been


through three months of agony. The public have been led to believe that


what they have voted for is an end to this. A very important point-


from the moment we joined we had the right to take up a job offer in


another member state, legal entitlement if you presented your


contract. But changed the Maastricht Treaty with EU citizenship, people


given legal entitlement to vote in other countries and claim welfare


and have the same university tuition and so on. That will change. Why do


you not say this during the campaign? To say that you want a


system whereby we have free movement of Labour? Completely at odds with


what the public think they have voted for. I have spent four months


addressing rallies virtually every day and everyone I would say, but


not imagine that if we leave, that means zero immigration, we will have


some control over who comes in. You have given the impression... Your


campaign has given the impression that we will not be able to get


immigration down to tens of thousands inside the EU, most people


would say that gives the impression we will get it down if we are


outside? We want a measure of control, it would be for the future


parliament to determine those numbers and how many students and


doctors and whatever, but nobody has ever tried to put a number on it,


that will depend on the state of the economy at the time. Thank you.


Christine, we're out of time. We have hit a nerve with band. Thank


you so much. -- down. OK, there's one other potentially


momentous area to look at tonight: Time to dust off those


old Disunited Kingdom cliches that were so popular during


the Scottish referendum. Kirsty - give me a flavour


of the talk in Scotland about a second independence


referendum there. Well, firstly, after such a decisive


vote in Scotland to remain, this country feels like it is in limbo,


people are bewildered and devastated that England voted to leave and


Scotland is unable to move forward, Nicola Sturgeon says referendum is


highly likely but she cannot afford to lose again and she has said there


is no guarantee that people who voted no in the first referendum


would vote for independence. So many questions. What would the impact be


on the economy and Scotland? Look what happened to oil after the last


one. Would we really have a closed border and tariffs when we trade 64%


and the rest of the UK? And what currency would Scotland use? We


cannot use the pound and will not use the euro. But for many people


now, and Bishop of the EU is a fundamental, non-negotiable so the


SNP is looking for a period of calm. Nicola Sturgeon had option but to


address the question of an independence referendum straightaway


this morning. The manifesto the SNP was elected on last month said


this... The Scottish parliament should have the right to hold


another referendum if there is a significant and material change in


the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken


out of the EU against our will. Scotland does face the prospect. It


is a significant and material change in circumstances and it is therefore


a statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must


be on the table. And it is on the table. From here, the UK seems in a


very different place and Scotland is very much another country. Now there


is a greater period of uncertainty north of the border than in England.


The mechanics of the second referendum or not clear what it is


unlikely that Westminster would deny Scotland a fresh independence vote


because, from the Shetland Isles to the Borders, the majority wants to


stay within the EU. There is a sense of unreality today. People cannot


quite believe their southern neighbours would be such worlds


apart. I cannot believe we have done this. I am very scared. Especially


with the Tory government that we have. I think especially in


Scotland, we do not have much of the boys in the UK at all. Do you feel


that we are very different in Scotland from England? Yes, there is


going to be a split. In and out. The roots of our relations with Europe


are long and steep, the old reliance, the treaty between the


Scots and the French were signed in the 13th century and Scotland has a


long tradition of sending its sons and daughters overseas, all over the


world, and we, in turn, have welcomed many different nations you-


Russians, Italians, Pakistanis, and immigration does not seem to be the


same issue here as it is south of the border. Why is it that


immigration does not seem to be such an issue as it is in England? I


think that Scotland as a race of people are more multicultural, our


culture is more varied, if you think about storytelling and music,


anything like that, I think that we are more accepting of new ideas. Are


you Scottish or French? Neither, I am Italian! Italian! And tell me,


you feel welcome in Scotland? This morning, when it came out of my


flat, I was feeling a little bit less welcome. But I think that they


voted for staying. I think I will try to feel welcome anyway because I


am welcome, maybe! In six weeks, the eyes of the world will be on


Edinburgh for another reason- people will come from over the world to the


biggest international arts festival on the planet. And the festival was


set up in the wake of the Second World War to encourage cultural


relations between Scotland, Britain and Europe to make sure that another


war in Europe would be unimaginable. Nicola Sturgeon made it clear that


she wants to build a consensus in the country around referendum. Now


it is possible that senior figures from other political parties would


be part of that consensus. Referring, finally, to live in an


independent Scotland within the EU rather than in an increasingly this


United Kingdom divorced from the EU. Now Scotland-England is one division


- young and old another. There's an anger in large


parts of the country, parts that have not felt blessed


by the benefits of globalisation in contrast to bustling metropolitan


hubs like London or Manchester And that schism


has asserted itself to the shock Filmmaker Nick Blakemore spent


the last couple of days in Burnley, which voted two-thirds for Brexit,


to see what was motivating We won't lose control,


we have lost control. For me it comes down to,


when we vote somebody in, whoever gets into the government,


they make the rules. And at the moment there


is somebody above them. That's why I'm going


to be voting to leave. What really gets me is this,


I fought for this country in 82. This government now is going,


immigrants, here you go, tick, I don't want it,


send them back home. We joined the EU


for one thing, yeah? And then it comes to light,


it's not a better life. Vote for hope, that was the thing


in the paper. You can't vote for hope,


there's no hope nowadays. We've had enough of the Tory


scenario, the The minute this referendum


is over and if Remain I think we should


leave and give it a try and we should get our


independence back because it's just It has, I've got to admit,


it's the one thing, it came down to democracy,


sovereignty, and the NHS. There is a lot of people come from


abroad and they've done good for I was born in Germany,


I'm a foreigner myself. We are not little Englanders.


We've always looked outwards. England was the greatest


thing I've ever known when I came over here and you were


free and if you worked hard you got I've never had a day's


benefit, I've never had I'm 83 years of age


and all I can get is Not that I need it,


I've got food in my belly, I'm getting by and I'm


not complaining. When I look round there


is a lot of folk worse. But I do object to people who have


worked all their life, just None of us know what


the future holds. I think that's why everyone


is undecided. My main point is,


you can't base your argument on a country and an entire


superstate that hasn't got your best That's my main reason


for leaving, who else is going to look after our country


but us? Good evening, and


welcome at the end of this momentous day when each one


of us has had the chance to say what At 10pm the polling stations close


after weeks, months, years of The BBC is forecasting that the UK


has voted to leave the European Union after


more than 40 years. Good morning.


Hello. Come on in.


Come out first. I don't know yet, I haven't


switched it on, I've put Fingers crossed I'm not


going to look stupid. Really?


Seriously? Tanya, just tell me what's


your reaction to that? I'm over the moon,


I don't know what to say. Everybody woke up in time.


Everybody listened. Everybody understands, yes,


it's going to be rough at the Some views from Burnley. With me,


two historians, David Starkey and Kate Williams, from the Times


newspaper Tim on Connery and writer and equality campaign Paris leads.


What is your reaction as you listened to that? I recognise those


towns, that's where and from command they will be upset when they find


out they've been lied to. They've been lied to. People voted with good


intentions but we are being led down a very dark path. Let's asked


whether the nation is in some way historically unusually divided.


Kate, are we in... We are incredibly divided, this is one of the most


divisive events since the Civil War and the most historical events since


the act of union itself. We see divisions between North and South,


young and old and the fact Scotland will have a referendum. Northern


Ireland, there are concerns about Martin McGuinness saying joining


together and we know the Scottish referendum will trigger questions


about the referendum in Wales so we are seeing massive divisions. When


we see a petition getting lots of people's signatures saying London


might set up as a different city state. I think it is a joke!


LAUGHTER I'm not entirely sure, there is some


joking in it but that shows the level of the division. It is huge.


You are both Remainers and you are both Brexit supporters, David, do


you think the nation is historically divided? It is but I think Kate is


slightly exaggerating, I can think Ireland, Roman Catholicism, I can


think of all sorts of things that have split us a map even the whole


question of whether we fought the Nazis or not, the country was hugely


divided. The more interesting question is why this has happened.


It seemed to me your Burnley film was absolutely right. What has


happened is the European Union is a proxy. It's a proxy for deep


discontent with experts, with the political class and so on. I think


it is also the fact that the political parties have been led, for


the last nearly 20 years by leaders, Blair on the one hand and Cameron on


the other, that thought it was very clever to kick their supporters in


the goolies. Was at the right thing to get out of it if it is just a


proxy, you are implying, let's kick something, the EU is over there,


let's do that? A lot of people voted on that basis, I think. It's very


important we recognise that, which of course also allows for the kind


of point Daniel Hannan was making that perhaps we could begin to


reunite as a very real possibility. I think that what we've got to do is


something which no recent government has had the courage to do. We've got


a rediscovery sense of international interest. Britain has spent the


whole of its time arguing with got to be good, with got to support


European rights because otherwise the Russians will misbehave. We've


really got to start to do a Goodall. The voters we saw in Burnley are the


ones political parties are finding it difficult to reach, any political


party -- Charles de Gaulle. What is the answer to that? They are not


natural Conservative voters, your party is nowhere near them. Sure,


and you talk about Britain being divided but I'm based in Washington


for the times these paper and I'm seeing the whole Trump phenomenon


over there, we are all seeing the whole Trump phenomenon in. We are


six or seven years after the global crash and immediately after the


global crash people wanted governments to stabilise the


situation but now there is the hunger for reform and remedy. I


think we are seeing that right across the world. Today's revolt,


yesterday's revolt by Tour of Britain is, and they were the


overwhelming explanation for why we are leaving the European Union, that


has to be heeded. This isn't just a vote to leave the European Union,


this is a cry for help from a huge proportion of our publisher who


think all attacks isn't working for them. It is to do with austerity, I


agree but Wales has 500 million subsidy and huge votes against, we


didn't hear much talk about sovereignty in the same way and the


concern is this will not give the people what they want. You are


making an elementary confusion. No, I'm not. You are assuming the


economy is what always mattered. Austerity is tied up with the


economy. What this photo shows is that it is culture that matters --


what this vote shows. Politicians connecting with voters, Jo Cox did


it well and SNP in Scotland. Labour and Conservatives must put up their


hands and admit they are not getting it right. Your point about the


voters in Burnley, at the moment they are floating voters, the


Conservative leader who was as clever as Disraeli. Remember,


Disraeli captured the working man's vote in 1867 and there is the


possibility now of a Boris or another charismatic politician.


Let's ask if you think Boris is a healing politician? Horace's speech


was extraordinary, it wasn't a victory speech, I think he realises


he's got it wrong and this is really serious -- Boris's speech. I hope we


can have another referendum. Bad loser! I think I'd rather be a bad


loser, I've got more important things to worry about. People feel


they have been lied to. People have been lied to. There is so much more


voter regret than I've seen before. It is a clear illustration of why


the vote went why it did. People will be surprised with Boris


Johnson, he's probably the likely next Prime Minister of this country.


If you look at his record, he was championing the Living Wage before


other Conservatives. Same-sex marriage. He opposed the tax credit


cuts George Osborne proposed, he's a more interesting conservative than


people think. We have talked about the Burnley divide and the


metropolitan elite, but what about the generational divide? It is


striking, the under 45 Sam voted to stay in and be over 45 is to stay


out. There was a debate on Radio 5 live called grandma, what have you


done? The older generation don't have to live here as long as the


younger generation. Should we introduce a cut-off point beyond


which you can't vote? Your sense of sublime self entitlement. Are we


going to have those under 35 with two votes? We have had so much taken


away from us, I don't have to have my airtime taken away as well! You


haven't answered my question. You are not letting me because you are


interrupting me because you are a privileged white man who wants to


speak over me and this is the problem. Young people are getting


sick of it, sick of being spoken over and six of being patronised. We


have to pay for our education in a way that your generation didn't have


too. Everything that gets taken away, young people are being cut


off. I think there is a lot of frustration and for young people


Europe is somewhere we go on holiday and go clubbing, we don't have this


xenophobia. The young vote will be vital in Scotland, they gave the


vote to 16-year-olds and they were massive in the turnout. I noticed


Nigel Farage say, we can engage with the Commonwealth but I've watched


the Australian media who said today, why are we still linked to this


country that will be diminished, lose Scotland, possibly Wales and


the Commonwealth is due for the chop as well. This is not... Be careful


what you wish for is the message. In our relationship with Europe we have


a situation where people from Africa, Asia, Australasia, have


second-class status when it comes to coming into Britain, we prioritise


Europeans. The problem with with Little Britain is little


Europeanism. There will not be a Britain in ten years! That's about


it. Normally we are meant to be


the quietly stable, pragmatic nation that doesn't do revolutions


or chop people's heads off. But we will be back


with a special programme And right now, or as soon as I can


get to the Green Room, Go to our Facebook page,


ask questions there. A few of us will be talking


through the day.


Download Subtitles