Life After Brexit: A Newsnight Special Newsnight

Day two of Brexit Britain - how are you feeling?

We're live in Westminster for a Newsnight Special,

as Britain and Europe start working out how exactly this conscious

uncoupling will proceed, and what Brexit actually means.

When will the British government formally declare its

And what sort of relationship does it want with the EU in future?

And they are getting increasingly impatient.

From the Conservative shires to Labour's Northern heartlands,

they voted out but who are the Brexiteers and what do they want?

Boston in Lincolnshire voted 80-20 to leave the EU.

Lambeth in London voted 80-20 to remain in the EU.

How did we get such a divided country and what is going

We voted to leave the EU yesterday, so should we get a move on?

Or should we take a bit of time to pause and think?

The British Commissioner in Brussels, one of the most senior

figures there, Lord Hill, he's got a move on by resigning.

But British policy is to slow things down.

We need a new Prime Minister, for a start.

Even the official Leave campaign, so keen to get us out, wants time.

But many European counterparts want things to get going,

thinking we've voted out, so go now, go, walk out the door...

But can they force us to rush things?

It all comes back to the magic of Article 50.

Our political editor Nick Watt is with me.

A little refresher on article 50. That is the formal mechanism in the

Lisbon Treaty that allows a member state to leave the European Union.

Throughout the referendum, Vote Leave said the initiative lies with

the member state to trigger it and David Cameron has said he's not

going to do it, he will leave it to his successor as Prime Minister so

that means the earliest it could be triggered by the UK will be October.

The European Council has issued a statement about which backed that up

at one level, saying it is the initiative of the member state to

trigger it but it then says, get a move on. You have some intelligence

on what some of the member states are telling us about this. It's

pretty clear Angela Merkel is sympathetic to the slight pause but

what I'm hearing is that member states are saying to Britain, it

needs to be triggered by the end of the year and the reason for that is

they want the negotiations concluded by the end of 2018 because in 2019,

the leadership of all the European institutions changes so they need to

turn their mind to that. But there is a second thing and to understand

this, perhaps we should look at the wording of article 50. The second

sentence of article 50,000:. -- 50 said. The key word is "Shall". Vote

Leave says that means we will decide whether to do it but what we are

hearing from some member states is that it implies in law and

obligation, and obligation to notify and if you don't notify, then

perhaps you could be in breach of Article 50 and we might give you a

prod. So they might try to invoke or initiated themselves. Why does it

matter quite as much as everyone thinks it does that we try to delay

or slow down the Article 50 business? The reason why Vote Leave

is like to delay is because once you have invoked it, you have very few

cards to play. Because what would happen when you do that is that the

remaining 27 member states amongst themselves, without the UK, would

agree what is called a negotiating mandate. They would probably hand

that to the European Commission to negotiate with us. That then has to

be agreed within two years and you can only extend it if every member

state agrees to do so. If it doesn't happen, the guillotine comes down

after two years. And you leave on the most neutral terms which may not

be the most favourable. Thank you for joining us.

Well a key requirement of sorting out the separation arrangements

is that we know what relationship we want instead,

but also that Europe knows what it wants our relationship to be.

On that latter point, our diplomatic editor Mark Urban

It's just that many people can't work out in exactly which direction.

And in a city renowned for its addiction to waffle,

even the best minds are grappling with new realities,

like how on earth Article 50 will work.

is also the expert's guide to Article 50,

It is obviously drafted to give the EU a negotiating advantage.

If no agreement is made in those two years, then

It can only be extended by unanimous agreement

So there is a big disadvantage to the leaving country

the resignation of Britain's top EU official today.

He felt the referendum result had made his position untenable.

as the decision in the British referendum takes place,

actions have consequences, and I think that it's not possible

You have to listen to the will of the British people

The process of agreeing a common European response got under way

with the foreign ministers of the six founding EU states

On Monday, Donald Tusk, who chairs the union's Council,

will go first to Paris for talks with Francois Hollande,

and then to Berlin to see Chancellor Merkel.

He will try to forge a common approach for a European summit

in Brussels on Tuesday, where David Cameron will be present

to give the British view of the way ahead.

And then on Wednesday, he'll be left out

of the discussion as the other 27 seek their way forward.

Today's Berlin meeting urged a Brexit as quickly as possible.

But the Germans are also saying that there can be some time before

the leaving process formally starts, and that the UK does have choices

We will deal with all the countries in an equal way.

It means there should be no revenge, no punishing.

And it means with solutions like the Norwegian solution,

you have to fulfil the obligation, as everyone else.

The question is, how long will it take to negotiate

My intuition, for what it's worth, is that it might take much longer

than both sides either wish or expect.

So to Churchill's bar to consider the new rules,

while Wales and Northern Ireland jockeyed for advantage.

The EU now wants Britain to say what kind of deal it wants,

whether it's willing to play by single market regulations

and European leaders want the negotiation

I'm joined now by the Ukip MP Douglas Carswell.

Good evening. Thank you for joining us. Are you in the camp who want to

delay a very long time to invoke article 50 or do you think we should

get on with it? We want to get this right, act in good faith and do what

is right for ourselves and our neighbours and build the new

consensus in the country. That means there's absolutely no need to rush

into this. There are two or three things we need to get right first.

We need the right people overseeing the process. The old mandarins who

got us into this mess can't be trusted, you've got our people like

Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Daniel Hannan overseeing the

process. Then we need to informally work out the outline of a deal. But

we do that after we invoke Article 50? I mean, we have to get a Prime

Minister before we invoke it but you are not suggesting we get the

outline of a deal before we invoke it? I think there are important

things that need to be discussed before we invoke article 50? What's

wrong with invoking it quickly and starting the negotiations? It is a

stopwatch and once you press it, you have 24 months. Why rush it? We've

waited 40 years to get it right, why give ourselves an artificial

deadline? It is a deadline, we were told before the referendum it was

going to be dead easy, there's not going to be a problem negotiating

because they want to do it. I think it is fairly straightforward and the

noises from Angela Merkel were very encouraging but it's important to

get this absolutely right. We want to be good friends and neighbours.

We should be invoking it by the end of the year. We can't leave them

waiting so we can all agree on that? Yes. But the model of what we're

going to a mat or what you would like us to a mat, when you think

about what that model is, there seems to be some disagreement or

differences of opinion amongst the Leave camp over what it should be.

Do you think an association agreement, let's call it something

half out rather than fully outcome is that acceptable? Leave means

leave. No EU institutional court will have jurisdiction. We will

decide for ourselves the nature of our relationship but having said

that, we are not in the business of closing our borders. For example, we

would decide our migration policy. It would be for us to make those

decisions. But how we decide it and what those decisions would be for a

future government and party. So you would not be one of those who would

rule out the single market, for example? Absolutely, we must rule

out the single market. We want access to the single market

obviously but we must not be part of the single market and subject to the

jurisdiction. -- subject to the jurisdiction for a simple reason,

there are many businesses you don't sell to the single market so why

should they comply with the rules? And free movement, I'm wondering

whether you think and interpret the vote of the referendum as a vote

that says, free movement absolutely have to go, so anyone who suggested

a deal with Europe that maintain free movement... There will be an

end to unrestricted free movement. The precise nature of those

restrictions is for a future government and future Parliament to

decide but it will be weak, Britain who make those decisions. Is there

some wriggle room on this because Daniel Hannan was talking about free

movement to an extent full stop there will be restrictions on free

movement but a future Parliament and British government, like in Austria,

will decide the nature of those restrictions. You are a great

believer in Parliamentary sovereignty and its imported you.

What do MPs do, when they see there is about to come out but they

believe, and many of them do, I think would be an option which keeps

us in the single market and perhaps even keeps free movement if that is

the price of being in the single market. Do MPs have to say that it

has been voted against or not? Vote Leave was very clear, we want to

leave the single market. If we remain part of it, of course we want

access to it but if we remain part of it, that is not leaving. If we

remain part of the single market... That is staying. So MPs are not

entitled in your view to come to their own view about what the

referendum means? Leave must mean leave but when we leave, we want to

do it in a way that is constructive. We did not ask the public whether

what they wanted the Norway option or the Swiss option or the Turkish

option. With respect, no one in Vote Leave ever talked about those, you

did but we never talked about the Norway, or Swiss model, Weise wanted

a British model in the interest of Britain and we can get that. What is

to stop MPs saying that Arrington on, which may not be the same yours

-- as yours, that in the single market and out of the EU is

consistent with what people want? Political elites don't like people

deciding these things and there will always be some in the western

instability want to do that but the point of the referendum if it gives

a democratic mandate to Vote Leave for change. And the Norway option is

not consistent with what we've does voted on in your view? With respect,

Vote Leave has never talked about it. Just a quick... Nigel Farage

does not have a place in the committee to Vote Leave getting

together to think about some of these issues but should he have?

Nigel made a conscious choice not to be part of Vote Leave and I think

it's only right and fair we take into account the fact that 48% of

people in this country voted to remain. We need to find the right

and considerate return. Only 37% of people voted for my party at the

last general election. --... Only a certain percentage of people. This

will be led by... This will be led by Vote Leave's leadership and we

have a dumb right to make this happen. Thank you for joining us.

Well, it might matter in all of this what the people of Britain want.

We have asked them one question in the referendum, about EU

membership, but we didn't drill down into the details about what exactly

Would people prefer right out, half out or what?

We asked Katie Razzall to go and find out.

Just after 7am, if you are just waking up and joining us, you are

waking up to a different country. The UK has voted to leave the EU.

It's a new dawn and a time of questions about the people who voted

for Brexit and what they actually want. Tremendous news for the

industry. Marvellous. In North Tyneside yesterday morning, euphoria

at the quayside, in a place where a dozen or so fishing boats still

operate. It's a great day for myself, waking up this morning in

Great Britain, to see that we have got our independence back. At the

North Shields Fish market, these traders of course see the EU as the

source of the industry's woes but their votes were about far more. The

people have spoken, they just wanted a change, out against the

government, the bankers, whatever you want to call it, legislation in

Brussels and everything, people have just had enough. The north-east

think the Brexit message loud and clear, inequality, the threat from

globalisation, alienation from Westminster all played their part.

They have misunderstood the working classes. It's OK for them to listen

to the banker than all the people in London but the governor should have

sat up and is in before now, before it got to the stage. How they move

forward, I'm really unsure. The ferry between North and South

Shields is a regular commute but these are not regular times. To help

this great country succeed, thank you very much. The Prime Minister

has resigned. From people who voted in, and there were some, fear about

what the future holds. People like me are very scared. It's a huge

gamble. You don't know what out there. We need concrete facts, which

we are not going to get. But here, even those who voted out did not

have clear ideas about the next steps. For England to be England

again, to do our own thing, to control our own money. I don't know

exactly what was going to happen if we voted out or in. So you decided

to take the risk? I thought it was better than sitting there and

wishing things would change. At least you are doing something about

it. Change is perhaps a big ask in a deprived region which are set so

much store by this vote. Remain as Slate central pledges made by Brexit

politicians during the campaign are now being rolled back from. On NHS

spending and getting immigration down. This former city trader

invests in north-east charities. I do feel that there wasn't element of

a conflict in this way, that if I'm crude, generally, some rich, white

men got sections of the population to go with them on a journey that

would not benefit the population, that would benefit the careers of

the rich, white men. I think that time will bear me out. So much of

England voted out, from the once proud industrial heartlands and

places like South Shields, all the way to the Conservative shires. This

was a union of voters that has changed the face of Britain. Hello!

Welcome to a new era. That is how you are feeling? Positive? Yes, very

positive. Feeling happy? I really am, actually. Nice that someone

wants to talk to us because our grandchildren don't. They are not

happy with you? 250 miles from North Shields, Miles and Juliet McNair are

unlikely bedfellows with the Tyneside Brexiteers. Now we are

going out, what was it you voted for, what did you want? Above all,

to regain our own sovereignty. That was the absolute main and prime

reason. Independence, really. What do you want them to negotiate? What

are your lines in the sand? Sovereignty as in running our own

laws? Absolutely. Control of our borders and immigration? Yes... In a

modified form. You might accept the Norwegian model, freedom of movement

with an emergency brake? Yes... A basic British sense of tolerance

should apply, here. In their Warwickshire constituency, the

majority voted out. If they don't bring down immigration, will that be

a problem for you as someone who voted out? I think it will because

there is that option as well. We are full. It's not a racist thing. We

are full. I did not actually vote for immigration, to be honest. That

was not my first motivation to vote. I know everyone talks about it but

that was not the real reason. As well as dealing with the EU,

politics at home is heating up. In the Tory leadership race,

the forces are lining up for and against the bookies'

favourite, Boris Johnson. For the moment, Boris Johnson

appears to have the Conservative Party in his hands. He is no doubt

hoping the gods, who have a way of reminding me mortals who is in

charge, will be on his side. Amid the continuing fallout from the

referendum, business at Westminster has all but ground to a halt. Behind

the scenes, Tory MPs are calculating whether Boris is unbeatable in the

leadership contest which will be under way within a week. The

remainder is, as the pro-European Tories call themselves, of meeting

to discuss their tactics. Newsnight has realised there is a realisation

in the George Osborne camp that he will struggle to gain traction

because he is so closely associated with a failed Prime Minister. Shares

in the energy and time change Secretary Amber Rudd are one of the

few things that are performing well at the moment, but her allies know

it will be a tall order to beat Johnson, who is campaigning was seen

to have added 2% to Brexit numbers in the referendum. It was not

difficult to detect the weary mood in the Remain camp, as the Prime

Minister discharged his duties on Armed Forces Day. Some on his side

who lament the political forces which ejected him from office say

the next leader must be a healer. In my view, a great Prime Minister

leading a great and reforming administration, mainstream,

conservative one-nation reform has been taken out at the knees by the

savagery of this bill is a good earthquake. And in choosing a

replacement for David Cameron, we have to pick not just a person, but

I think we need to develop a programme that brings the party

together but more importantly brings the country together, that speaks

not just to the 52 voted to leave the European Union, but the 48

wanted to be part of a forward-looking and global Britain.

It is your fault, Jeremy! When are you resigning? It is your fault!

Labour is facing its own bout of soul-searching after Jeremy Corbyn's

underpowered performance in the referendum campaign. A rather

different reception awaited Labour's most senior elected official at the

Pride rally, as he said London should fight hard to maintain core

aspects of Britain's EU relationship. What is clear from the

results on Thursday was that London was the only region in England to

vote too Remain in the EU, overwhelmingly so. It is also clear

to me that London is a powerhouse for our country. The idea that

London would not be around the table is ridiculous. The current and

future Prime Minister needs to make sure we have a seat around the

table. We have to make sure we are inside the room when it comes to

doing a deal with the European Union. The Prime Minister was a

spectator today as the Red Arrows marked ardent forces day -- Armed

Forces day. He will be an onlooker again shortly.

I'm now joined by Conservative MP Robert Halfon.

You are sometimes called the minister for blue-collar Tories. How

is your party going to reconnect with those blue-collar Tories?

Nobody seems to be connecting with them well at the moment. I think we

have a major challenge. We need to reconnect with the millions of

working class voters who have left the Labour Party, which is a huge

challenge for them as well. We need to reconnect with the people who

have voted to Remain, the 48%. And we need to reunify the party. In

terms of working people, we have started on the road with the

national living wage, with apprentices and creating jobs, but

we need to do more. We need to deal with poverty, compassionate

conservatism at the heart of conservatism. That is a huge

challenge. Obviously, this is going to be a debate in the leadership

election, but one would have to wonder whether going from one white

it to another white Italian is going to cut it. No one has ever said to

me how terrible it is that the Prime Minister comes from a poor school.

Many would love to send their kids to a posh school if they could

afford it. That is not the issue, the issue is whether we are seen as

being on the side of working people. And the millions who voted Leave,

that we speak for them. A lot of people have said there is an out of

touch elite, that is one of the things that has been a refrain of

the referendum campaign. You can't honestly say that Boris Johnson will

break through that as an Etonian, will he? He is just another one of

the same. I wonder whether there should be a fresh face, something

different. I accept that there is an anger against the elite. That was

behind many of the people who voted to Leave last week, and we have to

respond to that as a party. I believe we have started down that

road. We have a long way to go. I genuinely don't believe it is back

about whether people are posh or what background they come from, it

is about how we present ourselves. Are we going to be the party for

workers? Is someone struggling to earn a living go to feel we are on

their site? That has to be the raison d'etre of the next Tory

leader. Why don't you stand? Not in a million years. You would connect

with the blue-collar workers. In my deputy chairman job, I have gone

around the country, talking about this. I don't want us to have a

majority of ten, I want a big majority, and the only way to do

that is to reach out to the millions of voters that Labour have lost who

voted Leave. Do you think if a new leader comes in with a different

programme, a different approach, do you think they need to go to the

country to seek a mandate at some point before long? And other fixed

term rule, it is difficult now to call an election. But you could make

it happen. It is difficult. It would be up to the leader to decide. We

have to cross one bridge at a time. We have to organise the

renegotiations. There has to be an election of a new leader and there

has to be a programme to get the Conservatives back with a proper

majority by speaking forward to people. Can I ask you whether you

think the leadership election needs to take the 14 weeks that seems to

be allowed for? Margaret Thatcher retook the Falklands in half that.

When Margaret Thatcher was deposed, that was on a Thursday and there was

a new Prime Minister by the Tuesday. We are now at an important time in

the country's history and we are other less. We can't wait 14 weeks

for you guys to decide between Boris and Theresa May. This is an

incredibly important question, who is going to be the next Prime

Minister? Who will carry on the work that David Cameron started? And

don't forget, when Margaret Thatcher was standing, it was only MPs who

had the election. We have to go around the country and speak to

members, and they will make the final decision. Thank you very much.

Now, to finish, the most fraught issue of all -

the gulf between inners and outers, the new national divide.

It's about class, region, education and outlook.

I have to say, there are urban professsionals who voted to Remain

who are dealing with Brexit through the five stages grief -

denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

As of a moment ago, a petition calling for a rerun

of the referendum had received 2.3 million signatures.

Can the divided British peoples cohabit comfortably?

Emily has been out, trying to make sure we all learn to get on.

If there's one thing we learned from the vote on Thursday,

it's just how divided the country is.

Boston in Lincolnshire voted 80-20 in favour of Leave,

So we've brought citizens from each place together.

Angie and Nina come from a farming community.

James and Gurjinder, the Lambeth boys, are a lawyer

and do they understand the choices they each made?

When you voted Leave, was it about the EU,

was it about kicking the Government, was it about change of any kind,

or was it about something I haven't mentioned?

We tried to tell everybody what was happening in Boston.

People say we're the most segregated town in the country.

What happens is, you get your neighbours,

and it is full of EU migrant workers.

They come over here, they live in houses of multiple occupation.

Some of them have been here for five years and can't even

I don't doubt in any way that these things are true

and that there are these problems in these towns.

What I worry about is that the EU has been blamed inaccurately.

I think these problems are there, but it isn'y the EU's fault.

Why do you think people have misunderstood?

I think there has been a lot of either deliberate

miscommunication or a very difficult conversation in the UK

they just seemed to be shouting at each other or believing their own

or believing their own side's truth, and sometimes both sides' truths

I for one didn't think it was correct to have

350 million to go to the NHS on the back of the battle bus,

and since then Nigel Farage has said that was ill-advised

But do you think people who voted Leave

But do you think people who voted Leave are thick?

Do you think that that is how the other side think?

Definitely, especially with the barrage of things that have

We know 350 million was not going to go directly to the NHS.

But where you get your savings is, the doctor who lives near me,

he told me they employ three interpreters at 40 quid an hour.

We would not have to be paying that through the NHS if we didn't have

I think we need to have a national conversation on how to build

a fairer Britain, which everyone feels works for them.

I just hope it goes straightforward and it sorts itself out.

For the younger generation like kiddies, they've been brought

up in this environment, so to speak, due to vandalism,

I don't want my children seeing all that,

Wherever you go right now, people agree on one thing:

we are in the midst of a quite exceptional

Life carries on - Glastonbury today, Wales winning football games,

Pride, Armed Forces Day, but Brexit is always

Which is why we've been here on a Saturday night.

Rolls-Royce Corniche - one of the best of the very best.