Life After Brexit: A Newsnight Special Newsnight

Life After Brexit: A Newsnight Special

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Day two of Brexit Britain - how are you feeling?


We're live in Westminster for a Newsnight Special,


as Britain and Europe start working out how exactly this conscious


uncoupling will proceed, and what Brexit actually means.


When will the British government formally declare its


And what sort of relationship does it want with the EU in future?


And they are getting increasingly impatient.


From the Conservative shires to Labour's Northern heartlands,


they voted out but who are the Brexiteers and what do they want?


Boston in Lincolnshire voted 80-20 to leave the EU.


Lambeth in London voted 80-20 to remain in the EU.


How did we get such a divided country and what is going


We voted to leave the EU yesterday, so should we get a move on?


Or should we take a bit of time to pause and think?


The British Commissioner in Brussels, one of the most senior


figures there, Lord Hill, he's got a move on by resigning.


But British policy is to slow things down.


We need a new Prime Minister, for a start.


Even the official Leave campaign, so keen to get us out, wants time.


But many European counterparts want things to get going,


thinking we've voted out, so go now, go, walk out the door...


But can they force us to rush things?


It all comes back to the magic of Article 50.


Our political editor Nick Watt is with me.


A little refresher on article 50. That is the formal mechanism in the


Lisbon Treaty that allows a member state to leave the European Union.


Throughout the referendum, Vote Leave said the initiative lies with


the member state to trigger it and David Cameron has said he's not


going to do it, he will leave it to his successor as Prime Minister so


that means the earliest it could be triggered by the UK will be October.


The European Council has issued a statement about which backed that up


at one level, saying it is the initiative of the member state to


trigger it but it then says, get a move on. You have some intelligence


on what some of the member states are telling us about this. It's


pretty clear Angela Merkel is sympathetic to the slight pause but


what I'm hearing is that member states are saying to Britain, it


needs to be triggered by the end of the year and the reason for that is


they want the negotiations concluded by the end of 2018 because in 2019,


the leadership of all the European institutions changes so they need to


turn their mind to that. But there is a second thing and to understand


this, perhaps we should look at the wording of article 50. The second


sentence of article 50,000:. -- 50 said. The key word is "Shall". Vote


Leave says that means we will decide whether to do it but what we are


hearing from some member states is that it implies in law and


obligation, and obligation to notify and if you don't notify, then


perhaps you could be in breach of Article 50 and we might give you a


prod. So they might try to invoke or initiated themselves. Why does it


matter quite as much as everyone thinks it does that we try to delay


or slow down the Article 50 business? The reason why Vote Leave


is like to delay is because once you have invoked it, you have very few


cards to play. Because what would happen when you do that is that the


remaining 27 member states amongst themselves, without the UK, would


agree what is called a negotiating mandate. They would probably hand


that to the European Commission to negotiate with us. That then has to


be agreed within two years and you can only extend it if every member


state agrees to do so. If it doesn't happen, the guillotine comes down


after two years. And you leave on the most neutral terms which may not


be the most favourable. Thank you for joining us.


Well a key requirement of sorting out the separation arrangements


is that we know what relationship we want instead,


but also that Europe knows what it wants our relationship to be.


On that latter point, our diplomatic editor Mark Urban


It's just that many people can't work out in exactly which direction.


And in a city renowned for its addiction to waffle,


even the best minds are grappling with new realities,


like how on earth Article 50 will work.


is also the expert's guide to Article 50,


It is obviously drafted to give the EU a negotiating advantage.


If no agreement is made in those two years, then


It can only be extended by unanimous agreement


So there is a big disadvantage to the leaving country


the resignation of Britain's top EU official today.


He felt the referendum result had made his position untenable.


as the decision in the British referendum takes place,


actions have consequences, and I think that it's not possible


You have to listen to the will of the British people


The process of agreeing a common European response got under way


with the foreign ministers of the six founding EU states


On Monday, Donald Tusk, who chairs the union's Council,


will go first to Paris for talks with Francois Hollande,


and then to Berlin to see Chancellor Merkel.


He will try to forge a common approach for a European summit


in Brussels on Tuesday, where David Cameron will be present


to give the British view of the way ahead.


And then on Wednesday, he'll be left out


of the discussion as the other 27 seek their way forward.


Today's Berlin meeting urged a Brexit as quickly as possible.


But the Germans are also saying that there can be some time before


the leaving process formally starts, and that the UK does have choices


We will deal with all the countries in an equal way.


It means there should be no revenge, no punishing.


And it means with solutions like the Norwegian solution,


you have to fulfil the obligation, as everyone else.


The question is, how long will it take to negotiate


My intuition, for what it's worth, is that it might take much longer


than both sides either wish or expect.


So to Churchill's bar to consider the new rules,


while Wales and Northern Ireland jockeyed for advantage.


The EU now wants Britain to say what kind of deal it wants,


whether it's willing to play by single market regulations


and European leaders want the negotiation


I'm joined now by the Ukip MP Douglas Carswell.


Good evening. Thank you for joining us. Are you in the camp who want to


delay a very long time to invoke article 50 or do you think we should


get on with it? We want to get this right, act in good faith and do what


is right for ourselves and our neighbours and build the new


consensus in the country. That means there's absolutely no need to rush


into this. There are two or three things we need to get right first.


We need the right people overseeing the process. The old mandarins who


got us into this mess can't be trusted, you've got our people like


Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Daniel Hannan overseeing the


process. Then we need to informally work out the outline of a deal. But


we do that after we invoke Article 50? I mean, we have to get a Prime


Minister before we invoke it but you are not suggesting we get the


outline of a deal before we invoke it? I think there are important


things that need to be discussed before we invoke article 50? What's


wrong with invoking it quickly and starting the negotiations? It is a


stopwatch and once you press it, you have 24 months. Why rush it? We've


waited 40 years to get it right, why give ourselves an artificial


deadline? It is a deadline, we were told before the referendum it was


going to be dead easy, there's not going to be a problem negotiating


because they want to do it. I think it is fairly straightforward and the


noises from Angela Merkel were very encouraging but it's important to


get this absolutely right. We want to be good friends and neighbours.


We should be invoking it by the end of the year. We can't leave them


waiting so we can all agree on that? Yes. But the model of what we're


going to a mat or what you would like us to a mat, when you think


about what that model is, there seems to be some disagreement or


differences of opinion amongst the Leave camp over what it should be.


Do you think an association agreement, let's call it something


half out rather than fully outcome is that acceptable? Leave means


leave. No EU institutional court will have jurisdiction. We will


decide for ourselves the nature of our relationship but having said


that, we are not in the business of closing our borders. For example, we


would decide our migration policy. It would be for us to make those


decisions. But how we decide it and what those decisions would be for a


future government and party. So you would not be one of those who would


rule out the single market, for example? Absolutely, we must rule


out the single market. We want access to the single market


obviously but we must not be part of the single market and subject to the


jurisdiction. -- subject to the jurisdiction for a simple reason,


there are many businesses you don't sell to the single market so why


should they comply with the rules? And free movement, I'm wondering


whether you think and interpret the vote of the referendum as a vote


that says, free movement absolutely have to go, so anyone who suggested


a deal with Europe that maintain free movement... There will be an


end to unrestricted free movement. The precise nature of those


restrictions is for a future government and future Parliament to


decide but it will be weak, Britain who make those decisions. Is there


some wriggle room on this because Daniel Hannan was talking about free


movement to an extent full stop there will be restrictions on free


movement but a future Parliament and British government, like in Austria,


will decide the nature of those restrictions. You are a great


believer in Parliamentary sovereignty and its imported you.


What do MPs do, when they see there is about to come out but they


believe, and many of them do, I think would be an option which keeps


us in the single market and perhaps even keeps free movement if that is


the price of being in the single market. Do MPs have to say that it


has been voted against or not? Vote Leave was very clear, we want to


leave the single market. If we remain part of it, of course we want


access to it but if we remain part of it, that is not leaving. If we


remain part of the single market... That is staying. So MPs are not


entitled in your view to come to their own view about what the


referendum means? Leave must mean leave but when we leave, we want to


do it in a way that is constructive. We did not ask the public whether


what they wanted the Norway option or the Swiss option or the Turkish


option. With respect, no one in Vote Leave ever talked about those, you


did but we never talked about the Norway, or Swiss model, Weise wanted


a British model in the interest of Britain and we can get that. What is


to stop MPs saying that Arrington on, which may not be the same yours


-- as yours, that in the single market and out of the EU is


consistent with what people want? Political elites don't like people


deciding these things and there will always be some in the western


instability want to do that but the point of the referendum if it gives


a democratic mandate to Vote Leave for change. And the Norway option is


not consistent with what we've does voted on in your view? With respect,


Vote Leave has never talked about it. Just a quick... Nigel Farage


does not have a place in the committee to Vote Leave getting


together to think about some of these issues but should he have?


Nigel made a conscious choice not to be part of Vote Leave and I think


it's only right and fair we take into account the fact that 48% of


people in this country voted to remain. We need to find the right


and considerate return. Only 37% of people voted for my party at the


last general election. --... Only a certain percentage of people. This


will be led by... This will be led by Vote Leave's leadership and we


have a dumb right to make this happen. Thank you for joining us.


Well, it might matter in all of this what the people of Britain want.


We have asked them one question in the referendum, about EU


membership, but we didn't drill down into the details about what exactly


Would people prefer right out, half out or what?


We asked Katie Razzall to go and find out.


Just after 7am, if you are just waking up and joining us, you are


waking up to a different country. The UK has voted to leave the EU.


It's a new dawn and a time of questions about the people who voted


for Brexit and what they actually want. Tremendous news for the


industry. Marvellous. In North Tyneside yesterday morning, euphoria


at the quayside, in a place where a dozen or so fishing boats still


operate. It's a great day for myself, waking up this morning in


Great Britain, to see that we have got our independence back. At the


North Shields Fish market, these traders of course see the EU as the


source of the industry's woes but their votes were about far more. The


people have spoken, they just wanted a change, out against the


government, the bankers, whatever you want to call it, legislation in


Brussels and everything, people have just had enough. The north-east


think the Brexit message loud and clear, inequality, the threat from


globalisation, alienation from Westminster all played their part.


They have misunderstood the working classes. It's OK for them to listen


to the banker than all the people in London but the governor should have


sat up and is in before now, before it got to the stage. How they move


forward, I'm really unsure. The ferry between North and South


Shields is a regular commute but these are not regular times. To help


this great country succeed, thank you very much. The Prime Minister


has resigned. From people who voted in, and there were some, fear about


what the future holds. People like me are very scared. It's a huge


gamble. You don't know what out there. We need concrete facts, which


we are not going to get. But here, even those who voted out did not


have clear ideas about the next steps. For England to be England


again, to do our own thing, to control our own money. I don't know


exactly what was going to happen if we voted out or in. So you decided


to take the risk? I thought it was better than sitting there and


wishing things would change. At least you are doing something about


it. Change is perhaps a big ask in a deprived region which are set so


much store by this vote. Remain as Slate central pledges made by Brexit


politicians during the campaign are now being rolled back from. On NHS


spending and getting immigration down. This former city trader


invests in north-east charities. I do feel that there wasn't element of


a conflict in this way, that if I'm crude, generally, some rich, white


men got sections of the population to go with them on a journey that


would not benefit the population, that would benefit the careers of


the rich, white men. I think that time will bear me out. So much of


England voted out, from the once proud industrial heartlands and


places like South Shields, all the way to the Conservative shires. This


was a union of voters that has changed the face of Britain. Hello!


Welcome to a new era. That is how you are feeling? Positive? Yes, very


positive. Feeling happy? I really am, actually. Nice that someone


wants to talk to us because our grandchildren don't. They are not


happy with you? 250 miles from North Shields, Miles and Juliet McNair are


unlikely bedfellows with the Tyneside Brexiteers. Now we are


going out, what was it you voted for, what did you want? Above all,


to regain our own sovereignty. That was the absolute main and prime


reason. Independence, really. What do you want them to negotiate? What


are your lines in the sand? Sovereignty as in running our own


laws? Absolutely. Control of our borders and immigration? Yes... In a


modified form. You might accept the Norwegian model, freedom of movement


with an emergency brake? Yes... A basic British sense of tolerance


should apply, here. In their Warwickshire constituency, the


majority voted out. If they don't bring down immigration, will that be


a problem for you as someone who voted out? I think it will because


there is that option as well. We are full. It's not a racist thing. We


are full. I did not actually vote for immigration, to be honest. That


was not my first motivation to vote. I know everyone talks about it but


that was not the real reason. As well as dealing with the EU,


politics at home is heating up. In the Tory leadership race,


the forces are lining up for and against the bookies'


favourite, Boris Johnson. For the moment, Boris Johnson


appears to have the Conservative Party in his hands. He is no doubt


hoping the gods, who have a way of reminding me mortals who is in


charge, will be on his side. Amid the continuing fallout from the


referendum, business at Westminster has all but ground to a halt. Behind


the scenes, Tory MPs are calculating whether Boris is unbeatable in the


leadership contest which will be under way within a week. The


remainder is, as the pro-European Tories call themselves, of meeting


to discuss their tactics. Newsnight has realised there is a realisation


in the George Osborne camp that he will struggle to gain traction


because he is so closely associated with a failed Prime Minister. Shares


in the energy and time change Secretary Amber Rudd are one of the


few things that are performing well at the moment, but her allies know


it will be a tall order to beat Johnson, who is campaigning was seen


to have added 2% to Brexit numbers in the referendum. It was not


difficult to detect the weary mood in the Remain camp, as the Prime


Minister discharged his duties on Armed Forces Day. Some on his side


who lament the political forces which ejected him from office say


the next leader must be a healer. In my view, a great Prime Minister


leading a great and reforming administration, mainstream,


conservative one-nation reform has been taken out at the knees by the


savagery of this bill is a good earthquake. And in choosing a


replacement for David Cameron, we have to pick not just a person, but


I think we need to develop a programme that brings the party


together but more importantly brings the country together, that speaks


not just to the 52 voted to leave the European Union, but the 48


wanted to be part of a forward-looking and global Britain.


It is your fault, Jeremy! When are you resigning? It is your fault!


Labour is facing its own bout of soul-searching after Jeremy Corbyn's


underpowered performance in the referendum campaign. A rather


different reception awaited Labour's most senior elected official at the


Pride rally, as he said London should fight hard to maintain core


aspects of Britain's EU relationship. What is clear from the


results on Thursday was that London was the only region in England to


vote too Remain in the EU, overwhelmingly so. It is also clear


to me that London is a powerhouse for our country. The idea that


London would not be around the table is ridiculous. The current and


future Prime Minister needs to make sure we have a seat around the


table. We have to make sure we are inside the room when it comes to


doing a deal with the European Union. The Prime Minister was a


spectator today as the Red Arrows marked ardent forces day -- Armed


Forces day. He will be an onlooker again shortly.


I'm now joined by Conservative MP Robert Halfon.


You are sometimes called the minister for blue-collar Tories. How


is your party going to reconnect with those blue-collar Tories?


Nobody seems to be connecting with them well at the moment. I think we


have a major challenge. We need to reconnect with the millions of


working class voters who have left the Labour Party, which is a huge


challenge for them as well. We need to reconnect with the people who


have voted to Remain, the 48%. And we need to reunify the party. In


terms of working people, we have started on the road with the


national living wage, with apprentices and creating jobs, but


we need to do more. We need to deal with poverty, compassionate


conservatism at the heart of conservatism. That is a huge


challenge. Obviously, this is going to be a debate in the leadership


election, but one would have to wonder whether going from one white


it to another white Italian is going to cut it. No one has ever said to


me how terrible it is that the Prime Minister comes from a poor school.


Many would love to send their kids to a posh school if they could


afford it. That is not the issue, the issue is whether we are seen as


being on the side of working people. And the millions who voted Leave,


that we speak for them. A lot of people have said there is an out of


touch elite, that is one of the things that has been a refrain of


the referendum campaign. You can't honestly say that Boris Johnson will


break through that as an Etonian, will he? He is just another one of


the same. I wonder whether there should be a fresh face, something


different. I accept that there is an anger against the elite. That was


behind many of the people who voted to Leave last week, and we have to


respond to that as a party. I believe we have started down that


road. We have a long way to go. I genuinely don't believe it is back


about whether people are posh or what background they come from, it


is about how we present ourselves. Are we going to be the party for


workers? Is someone struggling to earn a living go to feel we are on


their site? That has to be the raison d'etre of the next Tory


leader. Why don't you stand? Not in a million years. You would connect


with the blue-collar workers. In my deputy chairman job, I have gone


around the country, talking about this. I don't want us to have a


majority of ten, I want a big majority, and the only way to do


that is to reach out to the millions of voters that Labour have lost who


voted Leave. Do you think if a new leader comes in with a different


programme, a different approach, do you think they need to go to the


country to seek a mandate at some point before long? And other fixed


term rule, it is difficult now to call an election. But you could make


it happen. It is difficult. It would be up to the leader to decide. We


have to cross one bridge at a time. We have to organise the


renegotiations. There has to be an election of a new leader and there


has to be a programme to get the Conservatives back with a proper


majority by speaking forward to people. Can I ask you whether you


think the leadership election needs to take the 14 weeks that seems to


be allowed for? Margaret Thatcher retook the Falklands in half that.


When Margaret Thatcher was deposed, that was on a Thursday and there was


a new Prime Minister by the Tuesday. We are now at an important time in


the country's history and we are other less. We can't wait 14 weeks


for you guys to decide between Boris and Theresa May. This is an


incredibly important question, who is going to be the next Prime


Minister? Who will carry on the work that David Cameron started? And


don't forget, when Margaret Thatcher was standing, it was only MPs who


had the election. We have to go around the country and speak to


members, and they will make the final decision. Thank you very much.


Now, to finish, the most fraught issue of all -


the gulf between inners and outers, the new national divide.


It's about class, region, education and outlook.


I have to say, there are urban professsionals who voted to Remain


who are dealing with Brexit through the five stages grief -


denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.


As of a moment ago, a petition calling for a rerun


of the referendum had received 2.3 million signatures.


Can the divided British peoples cohabit comfortably?


Emily has been out, trying to make sure we all learn to get on.


If there's one thing we learned from the vote on Thursday,


it's just how divided the country is.


Boston in Lincolnshire voted 80-20 in favour of Leave,


So we've brought citizens from each place together.


Angie and Nina come from a farming community.


James and Gurjinder, the Lambeth boys, are a lawyer


and do they understand the choices they each made?


When you voted Leave, was it about the EU,


was it about kicking the Government, was it about change of any kind,


or was it about something I haven't mentioned?


We tried to tell everybody what was happening in Boston.


People say we're the most segregated town in the country.


What happens is, you get your neighbours,


and it is full of EU migrant workers.


They come over here, they live in houses of multiple occupation.


Some of them have been here for five years and can't even


I don't doubt in any way that these things are true


and that there are these problems in these towns.


What I worry about is that the EU has been blamed inaccurately.


I think these problems are there, but it isn'y the EU's fault.


Why do you think people have misunderstood?


I think there has been a lot of either deliberate


miscommunication or a very difficult conversation in the UK


they just seemed to be shouting at each other or believing their own


or believing their own side's truth, and sometimes both sides' truths


I for one didn't think it was correct to have


350 million to go to the NHS on the back of the battle bus,


and since then Nigel Farage has said that was ill-advised


But do you think people who voted Leave


But do you think people who voted Leave are thick?


Do you think that that is how the other side think?


Definitely, especially with the barrage of things that have


We know 350 million was not going to go directly to the NHS.


But where you get your savings is, the doctor who lives near me,


he told me they employ three interpreters at 40 quid an hour.


We would not have to be paying that through the NHS if we didn't have


I think we need to have a national conversation on how to build


a fairer Britain, which everyone feels works for them.


I just hope it goes straightforward and it sorts itself out.


For the younger generation like kiddies, they've been brought


up in this environment, so to speak, due to vandalism,


I don't want my children seeing all that,


Wherever you go right now, people agree on one thing:


we are in the midst of a quite exceptional


Life carries on - Glastonbury today, Wales winning football games,


Pride, Armed Forces Day, but Brexit is always


Which is why we've been here on a Saturday night.


Rolls-Royce Corniche - one of the best of the very best.


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