Browse content similar to 30/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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APPLAUSE I don't often wear my heart on why | :00:00. | :00:12. | |
sleeve, I just get on with the job in front of me. APPLAUSE | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
What is your message for Michael Gove? What is your message for | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
Michael Gove? Having consulted colleagues, in view of the | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
circumstances in Parliament, I have concluded that the person cannot be | :00:30. | :00:30. | |
me. Boris negotiating Europe, last time | :00:31. | :00:43. | |
he did a deal with the Germans, he came back with three nearly new | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
water cannon... (!) LAUGHTER There is lots of talented people who | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
could be Prime Minister after David Cameron, but count me out. I don't | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
want to be Prime Minister. I could not be Prime Minister. I know that I | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
could not do it. I am not equipped to be Prime Minister. I don't want | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
to be a minister. I came reluctantly but firmly to the conclusion that I | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
should stand and Boris should stand aside. | :01:12. | :01:24. | |
You don't need me to recount the events of the day, | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
suffice to say that we've had more remarkable twists, | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
in a week that was already liable to cause motion sickness. | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
Tory MP Jake Berry who was backing Boris, tweeted: | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
"There is a very deep pit reserved in Hell | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
for such as he. #gove." | :01:45. | :01:45. | |
Now, you know how in conversation, men sometimes dominate | :01:46. | :01:47. | |
Well, the stage has been dominated by men. | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
For a couple of years it was about Boris vs Osborne. | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
And yet it's now Theresa May who has quietly become the front runner. | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
The bookies have her down as the new favourite. | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
That's not always a good place to be, by the way. | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
But we'll have more on her and the Conservative Party | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
in the programme, first though, the story of what has happened | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
Here's our political editor, Nick Watt. | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
VOICEOVER: They were the two big political beasts who were going to | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
remake Britain's place in the world after an intense month together on | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
the road, instead, within the space of just two hours, their | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
relationship disintegrated and the race to succeed David Cameron was | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
turned on its head. Boris Johnson has been the frontrunner among | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
Brexit Tories during the referendum campaign but in a sign of how he was | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
leaving no stone unturned, he dined with Paul Dacre at this discreet | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
Mayfair club earlier this month, he knew that if he was going to win the | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
contest, he had to win over the bible of Middle England. All seem to | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
be going swimmingly, with Boris Johnson's plan for number ten as | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
recently as yesterday afternoon. In an office tucked away in this | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
building, on the Parliamentary estate, Michael Gove's long-standing | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
friend, Nick Boles, was briefing the Boris team on the speech for his | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
campaign launch. But by this morning, he had a new job, campaign | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
manager for Michael Gove. Later that afternoon, an e-mail sent by Sarah | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
Vine, to her husband, one Michael Gove, was mysteriously leaked to the | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
press... (!)... Giving us the first hint that all was not well in team | :03:39. | :03:47. | |
Johnson Gove. The canary in the mine was the leaked e-mail, from | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
yesterday, a friend of mine e-mailed me and said, is Michael standing? I | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
e-mailed back, naively, as it turned out, saying I did not think he was. | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
The Boris Johnson campaign had seemed to be on such a smooth flight | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
path that the Sun newspaper printed an article overnight by the Justice | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
Minister, hailing his political qualities. It is 6am, Thursday, 30th | :04:10. | :04:18. | |
of June... A fellow Johnson ally had been expecting to cheer Dominic Ryan | :04:19. | :04:25. | |
on during a two-day show interview, but he was rudely interrupted with a | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
surprise request as he stepped out of the shower. I had a call at | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
5:45am, asking if I would step in and do the today programme with John | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
Humphrys, because Dominic had pulled out, I had no idea why this | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
happens... At such a late stage, Michael and Boris have been working | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
together for three months, stuck in a big bus, going around the country | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
together... You were due to do the today programme and you pulled out. | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
Absolutely, there is an element of this which is fast, people can have | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
their 24 hours, 48 hours, and when the dust settles, you have a choice, | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
candidates here will stand and leave the country, not just the | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
Conservative Party. The question is, what do you want? Shortly before | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
9am, Michael Gove addressed his new campaign team, in his ministerial | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
office in Westminster. Even long-standing friends thought they | :05:23. | :05:24. | |
were attending a Boris Johnson campaign team meeting. I was very | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
surprised by the announcement by Michael, I was not expecting it, and | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
about two minutes before he walked into the room I thought, something | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
is up, this is not quite normal, I thought it was a meeting to get me | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
onto Boris's team. The minute he stood up I knew that I was -- he was | :05:44. | :05:52. | |
in. At 9:02am, Michael Gove's team announced to the press that he was | :05:53. | :05:53. | |
standing for the leadership. Overnight, the Justice Secretary had | :05:54. | :06:10. | |
alerted allies of his decision, just as Boris was out making merry, not a | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
word was said to him or his team. I had no idea, when I got back to the | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
campaign headquarters, it started coming on the wires, none of us | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
knew... Boris did not know... After the bombshell from Michael Gove, | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
senior members of the Boris Johnson team hit the phones in their | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
campaign office to shore up support. At 11:20am, the former London Mayor | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
telephoned an ally, to say that he was abandoning his leadership bid | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
with the words, " I don't want to divide the party, I don't want to do | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
any Jeremy Corbyn". Other members of the team were kept in the dark until | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
Johnson spoke. I remember thinking, the longer he is, the less likely he | :06:55. | :07:01. | |
will be a candidate, if you are a candidate, you want to push your | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
message, get out there. We waited 20 minutes, and that made me think | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
perhaps he would withdraw. It was a strong speech, interesting, but it's | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
lacked energy. I think that was the tell-tale sign. Good morning, | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
everybody, thank you very much. World and, as to what happened | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
between five past nine, last night, when I got a message from Michael's | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
team, to this morning, shock, obviously... Michael Gove knows that | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
he stands guilty on two counts of treachery, running a referendum | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
campaign which brought down his one-time friend, David Cameron, and | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
abandoning his old friend, Boris Johnson, allies insist he followed | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
his conscience to withdraw support from someone who is simply not up to | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
the job of Prime Minister. I don't think people should read into this | :07:57. | :07:58. | |
some long-term Machiavellian strategy. I think that he agonised. | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
You genuinely think that this was a process? He has never set out with | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
the ambition to become Prime Minister, he is making this bid now, | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
and he wants to be Prime Minister now because he thinks that the right | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
person, he has looked at alternatives and does not think that | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
Boris Johnson is the alternative. Final straw for Michael Gove came | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
when Boris Johnson failed to live up to a commitment to guarantee a | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
senior campaign post to the energy minister, and Brexit campaigner, | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
Andrea Leadsom. Michael Gove believe this disqualified him from standing | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
as Prime Minister, on the grounds that he was a bit cavalier with his | :08:40. | :08:48. | |
allies or could not keep his word. Michael Gove now believes that his | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
hour has come, but one friend has said that he knows that he has got | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
to knock it out of the park tomorrow morning at his campaign launch if he | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
is to stand a chance against his archfoe, Theresa May. What about | :09:01. | :09:02. | |
Boris? STUDIO: We have with us | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
a panel of Tory members. The most powerful people | :09:08. | :09:09. | |
in the country right now. We should run down the road, | :09:10. | :09:22. | |
starting with you, who you are backing at this point? I am backing | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
Theresa May because I believe that she is a unifying candidate for the | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
party and the country. I agree with John, she is unifying. She is the | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
only person who is going to be good at being Prime Minister and she is a | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
tough negotiator. She looked the part today. Come on then, who are | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
you backing? Andrea Leadsom, she is the only character with -- candidate | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
with the toughness required, based on the mandate voted for last week. | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
Michael Gove is my man, he has conviction, competence, and also, I | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
would like to see next leader come from the vote Leave campaign. Who | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
were you backing yesterday? Good question...! LAUGHTER | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
Boris Johnson. So you went from Boris. In the hope there would be a | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
deal with Boris Johnson and Michael Gove. I am undecided, it is early | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
days, I want to see what contenders can offer, not just that the party | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
but for the country. We will come back to you all at the end of the | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
programme, I will be interested to see if you hear anything that | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
changes your mind. Is it edifying, are you impressed by what you have | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
seen? We love the drama, house of cards, but is it edifying? I don't | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
think anybody in the country would think it is, it has been like an | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
astonishing pantomime and that is why it is so important that we unify | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
behind a tough candidate, one who shows leadership qualities, who can | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
draw us together, and make sure that we do not do what the Labour Party | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
does right now. You, as journalists, you think it is quite fun, people | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
dropping like flies, everyone gossiping, standing... But actually, | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
in the country, I think people are really angry. The winds from the | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
referendum have not at all been solved by this. The more this goes | :11:15. | :11:25. | |
on, the worse this is. Show of hands, how many of you are annoyed | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
that you will not get a chance to vote for Boris, he will not be a | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
candidate. I would like to have had him on the ballot, because he would | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
have emphasised a politics which no other politician can offer at the | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
moment. We will come back to you at the end of the programme. | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
It's a paradox, but while today has been one of the Tories messiest, | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
the in-fighting and backbiting does appear mainly personal now, | :11:52. | :11:53. | |
Deeply personal. Four-letter word personal. | :11:54. | :11:55. | |
not among the five leadership candidates anyway. | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
Look at what they are actually saying, and you discern a certain | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
unity that we've forgotten the Conservative party | :12:02. | :12:03. | |
It may not last, it may not suit some of the old guard, | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
but it was all there in Theresa May's | :12:08. | :12:09. | |
For one thing, she and the others appear to be putting their ghastly | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
She the Remainer, yielding to Leave. | :12:14. | :12:25. | |
Turnout was high, the public gave their verdict. | :12:26. | :12:36. | |
There are voices that don't agree, but it's not much of an issue | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
Then there's another refrain you're hearing, | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
that it's time to have an elite weakening, | :12:43. | :12:43. | |
opportunity supporting, class-ridding capitalism. | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
Because Britain still needs a government capable of delivering a | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
programme of serious social reform, and realising a vision of a country | :12:54. | :12:55. | |
that truly works for everyone. All that austerity stuff, you know, | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
getting borrowing down, everything the party has been | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
doing for six years. Well, it was looking difficult, | :13:05. | :13:06. | |
so now's an opportunity to junk it. We should no longer seek | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
to reduce a budget surplus If before 2020 there | :13:11. | :13:12. | |
is a choice between spending, further spending cuts, | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
more borrowing and tax rises, the priority must be | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
to avoid tax increases, since they will disrupt consumption, | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
employment and investment. I suspect other candidates | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
will follow suit Theresa May and the others are | :13:29. | :13:37. | |
sounding broadly aligned. Now, what about | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
Theresa May the person? She has risen to front runner status | :13:45. | :13:46. | |
by doing everything She's not the most personable | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
of candidates, she doesn't butter | :13:50. | :13:51. | |
up the backbenchers in the teabar. She's not the charismatic | :13:52. | :13:53. | |
communicator that Boris Johnson is, Her line is that she gets | :13:54. | :13:55. | |
on with the job. It was the first track | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
she chose when she appeared but Theresa May has never felt | :14:00. | :14:14. | |
she had to walk like a man Today the bookie's favourite to be | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
Tory leader launched her bid | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
to become the second ever I don't gossip about people over | :14:25. | :14:26. | |
lunch, I don't go drinking | :14:27. | :14:35. | |
in Parliament's bars. I don't often wear my | :14:36. | :14:37. | |
heart on my sleeve. I just get on with the job | :14:38. | :14:39. | |
in front of me. and I think I'm the best person to | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
be Prime Minister of this country. Well, Theresa has never played | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
by what people have come to regard as the normal rules | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
of politics, doing favours, She's always been absolutely | :14:51. | :14:52. | |
straightforward saying, "I've got a job to do, | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
I'll get on with that job and I'll do it to | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
the best of my ability And in a sense it's the way | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
politicians used to operate before An anti-politician then, | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
and the ultimate survivor. Her first foray into public | :15:12. | :15:20. | |
consciousness came with a speech to Tory conference | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
is a really nonentity. -- to Tory conference | :15:24. | :15:25. | |
as a really nonentity. You know what some people call us? | :15:26. | :15:27. | |
The nasty party. It was a watershed moment | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
in the attempts to break with her party's toxic past, | :15:31. | :15:32. | |
although not everyone Theresa May doesn't yearn to be | :15:33. | :15:34. | |
liked, but that didn't stop her rising up the ranks under | :15:35. | :15:44. | |
various Conservative leaders. Her reputation is as a conscientious | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
hard worker, who put As the longest serving | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
Home Secretary in 50 years, she's championed gay marriage | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
and other progressive causes, but also the likes | :15:58. | :15:58. | |
of the snooper's charter. There have been riots on her watch | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
and she has presided over the failed But it's her stand-off | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
with the police that's If you do not change | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
of your own accord, I think that slight straightforward | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
way has actually won her a lot of fans from MPs who have only | :16:16. | :16:25. | |
known her really as Home Secretary. Previous home secretaries have had | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
all sorts of things going on, but she's not shied away | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
from the hard things. May has been compared with Angela | :16:33. | :16:34. | |
Merkel. Both have an immense grasp | :16:35. | :16:36. | |
of detail, both take In her bid to be leader, | :16:37. | :16:38. | |
May has already dropped her long-standing opposition | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
to the European Convention on human rights, to appeal | :16:45. | :16:45. | |
to the party's liberal wing. Her position during the referendum | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
also appears pragmatic. On the Remain side, | :16:50. | :16:51. | |
but remaining aloof. Far be it from me to interfere | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
with the Tory leadership campaign, we've got enough problems | :16:58. | :16:59. | |
of our own. But I think she's played it very | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
cannily in her own interests in terms of the European referendum | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
campaign, by keeping a low profile. We are in an era where people | :17:07. | :17:15. | |
are both sick of flamboyant politics, as we've known it, | :17:16. | :17:26. | |
even when they are She may be able to benefit from that | :17:27. | :17:28. | |
anti-politics, as we've known it, the low-key, | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
the slightly more reserved and more | :17:36. | :17:37. | |
thoughtful aspects. If she does become Conservative | :17:38. | :17:38. | |
leader, Theresa May will have done it without playing by the normally | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
accepted rules of politics. It will make her the first | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
Home Secretary since Winston Churchill to | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
reach the very top. Reports suggest Theresa May is | :17:49. | :18:02. | |
exhausting to negotiate with. There is suggestions David Cameron avoided | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
confrontations with his Home Secretary. But those skills may | :18:08. | :18:09. | |
appear useful as the exit looms. A quick look now, at what we think | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
the state of play is in terms of MPs Andrea Leadsome on 14, | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
and Gove on 12. Well, I'm joined now | :18:20. | :18:31. | |
by the Cabinet Office Who are you going to support? Anyone | :18:32. | :18:44. | |
who has watched the news knows we are in incredibly difficult times | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
and we need somebody with a steady hand, who has proven leadership | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
credentials. So I will be backing Theresa May. Why not Michael Gove? I | :18:53. | :18:59. | |
go back a long way with Michael. Exactly. He is a brilliant man, but | :19:00. | :19:07. | |
given everything that has happened over the past week, especially, we | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
need somebody who is steady and steadfast, determined. And over six | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
years at the Home Office, one of the most successful home secretaries in | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
history, you could argue, I think Theresa May is the person, right | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
now, to provide that stability. You have told us, this hasn't been | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
announced before you got here, have you spoken to George Osborne about | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
your decision to back Theresa May? I did tell him. I would have supported | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
George had he ran. He decided not to. Each day that passes, I think | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
the country, more and more, is looking for stability and certainty | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
and a clear way forward. She has got the leadership. She is also she | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
comes from the same sort of one Nation heritage that I care deeply | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
about. We saw that in the package, I thought. We are interested in what | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
you think, but also interested in what George Osborne things. When you | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
said you were backing Theresa May, did he look pleased, interested | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
first remark he hasn't declared yet. Other than saying he is not running | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
himself. Michael Gove says it should be a Brexiteer, given the vote last | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
week, what do you think of that argument? What Theresa May can do is | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
bring the party together, she can provide the unity. There are five | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
candidates, out of all of them, she is best placed to bring, not a party | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
together, but also the country together. I thought the speech today | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
was a good example of that, making sure the economy works for | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
everybody. We have had this incredibly difficult and divisive | :20:56. | :20:57. | |
referendum campaign. A very close results. Questions over whether the | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
economic recovery is reaching all parts of the country and whether | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
people who are disrupted, have been disrupted by new technology and | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
globalisation. I think she can deliver on that agenda. Brexit means | :21:12. | :21:20. | |
Brexit. You were a remainder, she was a remainder, but you all laxity | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
is now. Does that mean people who feel passionately about Remain, and | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
it is more important than the difference between Labour and Tory, | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
should now assume there is no place for them thinking of voting Tory? | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
The Tory is a sceptic party, don't vote Tory if you want to remain. We | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
are clear that we accept the decision of the British people. I | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
argued for Remain. If there was reform in Europe of some kind, can | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
you imagine the Tory party going back and saying, let's think about | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
this again? Suppose they gave us a really bad deal, could you imagine | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
saying, this is not good, let's go back in. You have got to respect the | :22:08. | :22:16. | |
will of the people. If you were a remainder, the Tory party is not for | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
you? We and the Labour Party all voted for this referendum. When you | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
vote for a referendum, I am a Democrat before anything else. She | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
gave a big chunk of her launch statement to the need to break class | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
barriers and increase social mobility and opportunity. I wonder | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
if you could take that as a criticism. Because haven't you been | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
doing everything to break down barriers and create opportunity? It | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
shows there is so much more to be done. It is an area I have been | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
working on in government and I think we have made some progress. I think | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
the referendum result demonstrated there is clearly more to do. | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
Tackling issues around social mobility are incredibly important. | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
It is the kind of Conservative Party I want to be in and that is the kind | :23:09. | :23:18. | |
of Conservative Party leader I want. How upset are you that she said | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
essentially, abandon the fiscal targets. The last election was | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
fought on those fiscal targets. A lot of people said they are not | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
achievable, or not worth achieving and a year in, we have had the | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
target abandoned. Circumstances have changed. How? We have just voted to | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
leave the European Union. But he won't even committed to being in at | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
that point, he must have planned for this? Government policy was to stay | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
in. We warned in advance. Government policy wasn't to stay in? Yes it | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
was, government Wallasey in the run-up to the referendum... No, | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
run-up to the election. There was a deficit target that has now been | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
abandoned. You can pick at the semantics, but something huge has | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
changed, we have voted to leave the European Union. I have said before | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
that, as did many respected independent forecasters, the impact | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
of that is likely to be negative for the taxpayer and the fiscal numbers. | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
It is perfectly reasonable, when that has happened, and that wasn't | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
part of the plans, the plans were to stay in, you have to look at the | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
fiscal picture again. It is not a problem at all for my support of | :24:44. | :24:52. | |
Theresa May. I am a fiscal conservative, I want to deal with | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
the deficit. But you have got to change when the circumstances | :24:59. | :25:00. | |
change. Thank you very much indeed. To stab one colleague in the back | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
looks unfortunate. To stab two, looks | :25:04. | :25:05. | |
like ruthlessness. But that is what | :25:06. | :25:06. | |
Michael Gove has done. He abandoned David Cameron | :25:07. | :25:08. | |
and opposed him in the referendum, and then Mr Gove abandoned | :25:09. | :25:10. | |
Boris Johnson with but a few The treachery tag may | :25:11. | :25:11. | |
stick to Mr Gove - it did to Ed Miliband for example | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
for what he did to his brother. But it might be that Gove is just | :25:15. | :25:16. | |
a conviction politician, who can't help but stand | :25:17. | :25:17. | |
by what he believes, Chris Cook looks at the man | :25:18. | :25:19. | |
and his beliefs. I believe the people should have the | :25:20. | :25:32. | |
choice to be members of a union. Michael Gove has a slightly sure | :25:33. | :25:40. | |
we're past than most politicians. As a younger man, he tried his hand at | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
comedy. He is neither a spectator columnist or a sociologist, he an | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
armed robber. Some of Michael Gove's university friends told me they | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
didn't expect him to be a politician. They thought he would be | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
a Scottish Stephen Fry. He has an instinct to provoke, and entertain. | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
His officials and advisers still say his desire to be interesting above | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
all, sometimes gets him into scrapes. Or, just total weirdness. | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
My favourite character in a game of thrones is... Hey everybody take a | :26:18. | :26:25. | |
look at me I have street credibility. As Education Secretary | :26:26. | :26:34. | |
he drove massive reforms. Michael Gove, the demented Dalek of speed. | :26:35. | :26:44. | |
After a brief spell as Chief Whip, he has used his tenure as Justice | :26:45. | :26:51. | |
Secretary to shake up prisons. Michael is committed to the issues | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
of aspiration, social justice, the things I care about. I want to see | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
that with the next leader of the Conservative Party and Prime | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
Minister. Is he a detail man? He is all over detail, I looked at the way | :27:06. | :27:15. | |
he conducted himself in Cabinet and the Prime prison reforms, I think he | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
is the right person for the task. One area Mr Gove has some | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
distinctive use is the Northern Irish peace process. In 2000 he | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
wrote a pamphlet for the CPS in which he argued their approach to | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
Republican terrorist reminded him of appeasement in the 1930s. He wrote a | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
book in which he argued Islamist terrorists had been encouraged by | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
the way Britain had dealt with Northern Ireland. Looking at this | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
pamphlet he wrote in 2000, it is further out than the DUP. He accuses | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
the Good Friday agreement of being appeasement and suggests we rip it | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
up and go back to fighting the IRA. It is awhile taught. Is Northern | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
Ireland likely to be in issue in the coming years? I have just been in | :28:06. | :28:12. | |
Northern Ireland and it is a bit tense. The outcome of the | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
referendum, when Northern Ireland voted to remain, means people have | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
been on edge. Cabinet colleagues of Michael Gove say he is a hardliner | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
on this issue, as he is on Islamist extremism. He is a neo-conservative, | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
in favour of the Iraq war. He attacked the Daily Mail's coolness | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
on it. In foreign affairs and other areas of life, if we were to follow | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
the Daily Mail's advice, we would be heading for disaster. But this week, | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
a leaked e-mail from his wife thought they could win over the | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
editor of the Daily Mail. Wrongly, it has emerged this evening. He has | :28:52. | :28:59. | |
gone for Theresa May. The leaked e-mail suggested I could get the | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
support of Rupert Murdoch. Official documents showed Mr Gove, a former | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
employee of Rupert Murdoch has met with the executives. And they met at | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
a recent wedding and Mr Murdoch suggested Michael Gove should run, | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
this week. It is observed and it is true that Michael Gove is personally | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
courteous. But there is a wrinkle. It is very striking people who cause | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
Mr Gove personal difficulty, often face vitriolic press coverage | :29:27. | :29:28. | |
shortly afterwards. That applies whether you are a Cabinet minister, | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
like Caroline Spelman or Philip Hammond, or a journalist like me. In | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
2011, I was the education reporter at the Financial Times. I reported | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
Michael Gove had been using his white's personal e-mail account for | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
public business. It kept information at the hands of officials he didn't | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
trust, and a wave of Freedom of information requests. I got a wave | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
of nasty, personal press comments by friends of Michael Gove, and | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
anonymous Twitter accounts repeatedly abused me and attempts | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
were made to get the company that owns the Financial Times, to fire | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
me. Michael Gove has less polite people on hand. Dominic Cummings, | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
his most aggressive aid and a former bigwig invoked Leave. I would | :30:17. | :30:24. | |
characterise Michael Gove as being a radical conservative. It is easy to | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
think of him as very much in the same stable as David Cameron. They | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
became part of this compassionate, modernising force in the | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
Conservative Party. But what I have learned working with and seeing | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
Michael's activities and views over a sustained period of time, is he | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
and the Prime Minister are very different individuals. The Prime | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
Minister is a small sea Conservative and Michael Gove is a radical. Say | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
what you like, but life under Michael Gove's Premiership wouldn't | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
be dull. STUDIO: Well, I'm joined now by two | :31:02. | :31:09. | |
Mps who until this morning were both Now that he's out, Jacob Rees-Mogg | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
has switched to Michael Gove, while Nadhim Zahawi is now backing | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
Theresa May. what do you think of his behaviour | :31:17. | :31:29. | |
this morning? i think that he has changed his mind, i think that | :31:30. | :31:31. | |
politicians ought to change their mind and announce it to the public, | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
what he has done is extremely rave, it came late in the day, nobody in | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
their right mind would have plotted it this way, so i am convinced it is | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
genuine, came to aching delusion, told everybody, he will be an | :31:45. | :31:53. | |
excellent prime minister. michael has been a great campaigner for the | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
vote leave campaign, huge talent, the bit you have missed out... | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
prison reform, it is incredibly valuable. I was shocked, this | :32:01. | :32:10. | |
morning, 9:05pm, last night. His special adviser saying, we are all | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
on, looking forward to seeing you for Boris's launch. Does it matter? | :32:15. | :32:25. | |
It does not, we move on. Why are you supporting him, he has made a | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
difficult decision, to push his friend out of the way but if he is | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
still a better leader, why would you not support him? As you have heard | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
from my co-author, Matt Hancock, Paymaster General, the leader should | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
be someone who can unite the country, 17 million people voted | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
out, there should be somebody who could deliver for those people | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
especially those on the national living wage, who were hurt by | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
freedom of movement but also those who can govern for the 48% who want | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
to remain. What that means for me, for the people who wanted to remain, | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
they want to see the economy being robust and strong and a settlement | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
with Europe. Theresa May called me in, I met with her today, she | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
reassured me that the negotiating team will be led by Brexiteers and | :33:09. | :33:19. | |
she has the steely resolve that she wants to get a deal, she is stubborn | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
enough to do that and get a deal on the economy. She can unite the | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
membership. In Stratford-upon-Avon, he told me, that they are | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
overwhelmingly behind it. Why are you picking Michael Gove? In some | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
ways, he does not look the winner that Theresa May does, not quite | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
unify. I have always thought that Michael Gove would be an excellent | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
candidate and a brilliant Prime Minister, I encouraged him to stand | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
early on, before he had decided not to. It is natural for me to support | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
him now, it is essential that the new leader supported leave. You are | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
rolling out half the party, basically? I am, this is a very big | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
decision that the British electorate have made, it needs to be in the | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
hands of someone they can trust you really believe that leave is what we | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
want. -- ruling out. There will be some compromises that must be made | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
with European Union. The issue about treachery is clearly going to be | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
around him, hanging around him. Your party used it against Ed Miliband in | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
the general election... That was against his brother. You did it | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
against Ed Miliband. That is against his brother, fraternal infighting is | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
different from someone who says as a matter of principle, I think the | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
leader I was going to support is not going to be successful. They have | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
known each other for 30 years. Do you think the treachery tag will | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
hang around? People will draw their own conclusions, they spent three | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
months with Boris on the bus going up and down the country, came on | :34:58. | :35:08. | |
board as soon as the result was known, to chair the campaign. Boris | :35:09. | :35:19. | |
had very little notice. Now we have five strong candidates. | :35:20. | :35:36. | |
It would have been idiotic to plan it that way, he's correctness in | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
doing it is assumed by the reverse, that if he had decided to back a | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
candidate in whom he no longer have confidence, that would be letting | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
the country down, once he has come to that conclusion, he had to | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
announce it, however late, however personally inconvenient, and chosen | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
to be a man of considerable strength. | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
So what's the story with Boris Johnson? | :36:05. | :36:05. | |
In his lively journey over the years, the rise, the fall, | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
the next rise, the latest fall, he has exposed something, | :36:09. | :36:10. | |
how stale many other politicians are, in projecting | :36:11. | :36:12. | |
The jovial persona appealed to many, but perhaps there is | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
That you can only go so far with the antics, | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
For those who see Westminster populated by identical cutouts, Oris | :36:20. | :36:33. | |
Johnson did not just stand out, he dwarfed many more senior | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
politicians, there is now a Boris Johnson shaped hole in the | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
Conservative leadership campaign and, who knows, perhaps in politics | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
as well. The crimes he has the most astonishing ability to communicate | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
with the wider public, to carry them with him, on television and even if | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
he walks into a shopping centre, most politicians, they would be | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
irritated by someone in a shopping centre, if they are on their way to | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
the chemist, but Boris transforms the atmosphere, at least until the | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
last few days. Even the people who regarded him as a clown found him | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
entertaining. In that respect he was a bigger figure than anybody else in | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
British politics. Are you going to upstage the Prime Minister? The | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
cameras would have been drawn to Oris in a room full of rock stars | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
and models, other mere politicians never stood a chance and for | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
political journalists, desperate for something interesting to report | :37:31. | :37:38. | |
upon, he was the mother load. We haven't had a story all week, help | :37:39. | :37:46. | |
us! Say something ill considered. I speak round, unvarnished | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
common-sense! Boris did not disappoint, except those he worked | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
for, party leaders found him unmanageable, distracting, he could | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
shred the meticulously formulated newsgroup with a raffle of his | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
health. What do you do with a problem like Boris? He has strong | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
views about lots of things... David Cameron's predecessor, Michael | :38:10. | :38:11. | |
Howard, had fired Boris Johnson from a junior French French job for lying | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
about an affair, Cameron offered his former school friend redemption in | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
municipal politics. -- from a junior front bench job. Are we ready? Yes | :38:22. | :38:28. | |
we are! As London mayor during the Olympics, Oris Johnson went | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
international, seen by his party as very useful, if a little too fond of | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
acting the fool. That changed abruptly with the referendum and his | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
support for vote leave, now seen as a mortal threat and the | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
establishment went for him ruthlessly. You cannot call him a | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
liar, he is one of those people in life you simply does not understand | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
the difference between fact and fiction. Even those who had worked | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
closely with him accused him of opportunism. It was a spectacular | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
miscalculation, I don't think his heart was in it. He is a uniquely | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
good communicator, he almost single-handedly helped deliver 17 | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
million people to vote for this course of action. In the end, having | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
secured that victory, really, Michael Gove among others had some | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
doubts, grave doubts, about whether Boris Johnson was going to deliver | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
on what he persuaded the British public to vote for. There lies the | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
mistake in the end, the miscalculation on a key issue of our | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
day, and he has paid the price for it, the rest of us are paying | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
heavily for it as well. After the result, the anger of frustrated | :39:45. | :39:51. | |
remain voters focused on Boris, and for a man used to popularity, it was | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
deeply upsetting. After his many mishaps, Boris Johnson has been fond | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
of quoting this song. But can he really gets up again this time? If | :40:03. | :40:13. | |
asked to play some minor role, in the next Conservative government, he | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
will play it with good grace, and he will wait and see what happens. So | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
we have not seen the end of Boris Johnson? I certainly don't think | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
that we have seen the end of him. Boris Johnson will probably always | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
be able to draw a crowd at will, but some are doubtful that he will ever | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
be a serious political force again. As a politician whose main qualities | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
were integrity, political courage, and an ability to unite people and | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
make them smile and feel good about themselves and feel good about the | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
UK, I am not sure there is a way back after the events of the last | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
few weeks and months. National treasure, yes, politician, busted. | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
It's the point in the programme where we sit back with a drink, | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
and mull over the political dramas of the day. | :41:04. | :41:05. | |
This is a bit of a story here, the Daily Mail, look at the cover, a | :41:06. | :41:20. | |
party in flames and why it must be Theresa Yesterday, Sarah Vine seemed | :41:21. | :41:28. | |
to imply... She has been disappointed in those hopes. | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
Regarding Paul Dacre. She looks like the winner, the tag of treachery is | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
going to stick, it is one thing for him to decide as a matter of | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
principle to back Brexit and go against his old friend David | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
Cameron, it is another for him to drop his friend, his close friend of | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
30 years, at a moments notice, leaving him absolutely no scope | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
except to withdraw. Politics is a dirty game, but many people will | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
say, that is going too far. You would support Theresa May? Yes, | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
reluctantly, she is remain and I am Brexit. She has integrity. She knows | :42:08. | :42:20. | |
what she wants, and she will have a broad base. She might get a Murdoch | :42:21. | :42:31. | |
endorsement. Murdoch loves Michael Gove. That is a bit more combative. | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
What about the other two? The Treasury tag, has it finished in? A | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
number of Tory MPs that I spoke with, not just those backing Boris | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
but more generally were shot with Michael Gove's betrayal of Boris and | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
the way that he did it at the last minute, leaving Boris Johnson with | :42:52. | :42:53. | |
only a few minutes before the deadline for nominations what he was | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
going to do, that is a huge trust issue for Michael Gove to go ahead | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
with in any circumstances, let alone when he needs to reunite the Tory | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
party after this incredibly divisive referendum, the lead should contest | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
is going to be very bitter, he will struggle to make the case for him | :43:10. | :43:17. | |
being leader and the Tory party... He cannot be a healer. You have | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
written an excoriating piece about Boris a couple of months ago, so you | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
must have been pleased that he has been edged out. I thought he would | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
be a great liability to the Conservative Party in any general | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
election, yes, from the party 's point of view, I am pleased. I'm not | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
quite sure that Stephen and Isabella are right about the effect of the | :43:37. | :43:45. | |
assassinations that Michael Gove has carried out on the Parliamentary | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
Conservative Party, they quite like assassinations, they quite like | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
toughness, his old image was really a rather unworldly, terribly | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
intellectual, elaborate the courteous character, we have seen a | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
new Michael Gove, some people will like that. Who are you supporting in | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
this? In ten years' time I would be supporting Stephen Crabb, at the | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
moment, Theresa May seems to be the unifying candidate. Do we feel the | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
Conservative Party has found equilibria? Whether it is | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
sustainable or not, the candidates in to be saying the same things, in | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
their hustings launches, opportunity capitalism... Absolutely, for | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
instance, it has been a bad week for the old attorney and, suddenly, the | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
party has become quite levelling. Very keen to raise the condition of | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
the poor, not sure about capitalism, it would like a kind of guided | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
capitalism. There is a gathering consensus around and importantly | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
different version of conservativism. Do you buy that? A lot of talk, | :44:50. | :44:56. | |
let's see where the action is. Progressive, but they want to help | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
the poor. We have heard this before. Let's see what happens. One | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
significant thing, as said about the deficit. She has said, let's not | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
worry about that. Everything we have heard from Osborne has been thrown | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
out of the window. Extraordinary development. So money things are | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
happening at once, difficult to take it in! | :45:18. | :45:28. | |
I think the Tory party will pull together. I think it is unlikely | :45:29. | :45:37. | |
Michael Gove can win this, I think Theresa May will win it. They even | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
managed to reach a consensus on Brexit. All of the candidates have | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
made it clear they will implement an exit. No one has said we must resist | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
this. Stephen Crabb and Theresa May as Remain campaigners have made that | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
clear. Matthew, you were a remain, I wonder whether now you feel the | :46:01. | :46:07. | |
party, which is so clearly, and Matthew Hancock said it again, this | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
is not a party for Remain. We are all excited about personal dramas, | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
but there is some huge policy decisions ahead. Our terms of | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
departure from the European Union is one of them. Matthew Hancock did not | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
bite on your suggestion that if the best deal we can come up with looks | :46:27. | :46:34. | |
awful, we might think again. But we might. You still think there is a | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
bit of Remain Hope left in the party? Absolutely, they are | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
terrified of this issue coming up again. They don't want a general | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
election. Only Ukip could do well in a general election. I will wonder if | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
there will be a leadership election. I was going to ask the same. If you | :46:55. | :47:02. | |
are backing to Reza may, do we need to take the country to this agony | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
for the next 11 weeks? Boris has only just hold out and there are | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
other impressive candidates. We have other backers of Boris who might | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
come out in favour for Andrea Leadsome. We haven't talked about | :47:17. | :47:23. | |
her. Maybe we should talk about the other candidates. If MPs go ahead | :47:24. | :47:31. | |
with this and boat the two that go forward to the members. Here you do | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
think the other member will be? I have a hunch there may be two women. | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
That is based on conversations with Tory MPs, who have been impressed | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
with Andrea Leadsome. It would be amazing if he didn't have someone | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
who had campaigned for Brexit. Andrea Leadsome was incredibly | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
impressive during the referendum campaign. She was very, very good, | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
as was Boris, but he doesn't have any rewards for it. It is possible | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
that she could be one of the final two. Would you mind if the | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
leadership election was called off? The Tory party has its rituals, so | :48:15. | :48:22. | |
it would be unlikely to do that. It would be good for the country, | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
better to get a Prime Minister before the 9th of September. We are | :48:27. | :48:33. | |
looking at the potential of having a new British Prime Minister, an | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
American president and the German Chancellor. Angela May with batch -- | :48:38. | :48:44. | |
Theresa May would match Angela Merkel. Let's leave it there. | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
Meanwhile, back in the real world the great challenge of renegotiating | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
a new EU relationship still confronts us. | :48:55. | :48:56. | |
The pre-posturing is still underway, we don't know which comments to take | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
But when Article 50 is eventually invoked, we'll be negotiating | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
with the unelected EU Commission acting under the influence | :49:05. | :49:06. | |
of the heads of state in the European Council | :49:07. | :49:07. | |
A key issue for us is trade, and our diplomatic editor Mark Urban | :49:08. | :49:20. | |
who's in Brussels this week, managed to sit down | :49:21. | :49:22. | |
If we look at Canada for example, talks started seven years ago, | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
No, we're done, we just have to be... | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
Maybe, it depends on how it's ratified. | :49:32. | :49:44. | |
In the light of that, is the article 50 provision that EU | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
and the UK have two tie everything up in two years realistic? | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
The article 50 has actually never been tested, it's a new article | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
And as far as I understand it, it is about regulating how the exit | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
Member states can prolong the period if it takes longer, | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
but the actual relationship between us and the United Kingdom | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
in the future will not be negotiated in article 50. | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
That is the terms of exit, so that will take even longer. | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
It's to negotiate the new relationship? | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
It is about the terms of exit, so there are two negotiations. | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
First you exit, then you negotiate the terms, | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
the new relationship, whatever that is. | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
So what position do you see the UK being in between exiting | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
and having its new terms of trade in place? | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
Right now, they are members, we are 28. | :50:39. | :50:41. | |
And until they exit, they will remain members. | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
So the referendum, which of course we take note and respect, | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
First, there has to be a notification, which the next time | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
Then the process can start and then we will have to see | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
all the practicalities that are linked to this | :51:00. | :51:01. | |
And then depending on how the United Kingdom, they have | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
to define what kind of relationship they want to have with the EU. | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
Then that'll have to be negotiated by our heads of states. | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
But while they are working towards that... | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
But once those two years are up, they are out? | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
In the years, if we follow the Canadian example, | :51:29. | :51:44. | |
it could be even seven or eight years before a new trade deal | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
is in place, on what basis are the EU 27 and Britain doing business, | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
There would be a third country there. | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
But that then presumably would be very damaging for supply chains, | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
all sorts of things, French companies, | :52:02. | :52:02. | |
Danish companies, British companies? | :52:03. | :52:04. | |
Do you worry that we've passed at high tide of openness to free | :52:05. | :52:14. | |
trade, increasingly when you hear for example, French objections | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
to what you are trying to negotiate with the Americans, that | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
protectionism, nationalism will prevent further major | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
There are lots of studies we've had, there has been won from the OECD, | :52:26. | :52:37. | |
there has been one from different independent trade related think | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
tanks and organisations coming lately that shows protectionism | :52:41. | :52:42. | |
And we see all over the world, not just in Europe, the US | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
and elsewhere as well, hostility towards trade, | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
which worries me because trade of course is a fabulous mean | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
to increase jobs and investment and bring people closer to each other. | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
And there is a raise in protectionism and that's why it | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
saddens me that the UK was traditionally a friend of free | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
The voice defending free trade will be weaker. | :53:09. | :53:22. | |
At the beginning of the programme we saw this panel of Conservative Party | :53:23. | :53:31. | |
members. The most powerful people in the country at the moment because | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
they are picking the next Prime Minister. You have heard a lot | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
today? One of the things we can be proud of is we have a good range of | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
candidates within the party to choose from. Stephen Crabb has a | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
working-class background. Michael Gove is an intellectual. We can be | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
comforted by the fact in comparison to Labour. But I am undecided, I | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
want to see what they can offer, especially to the country. Two of | :53:59. | :54:05. | |
view, not supporting Theresa May. You have heard people saying, scrap | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
the leadership election and anoint to Reza may because the Daily Mail | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
backs her and a lot of MPs are backing her. Would you be annoyed if | :54:16. | :54:23. | |
the contest was taken out of your hands? Absolutely. Democracy is not | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
in the hands of Paul Dacre. The idea you have two ignore the people, is | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
preposterous. Let's not pretend you are the people. It is on vertical | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
Michael Gove treacherous because he followed his conviction. I admire | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
him for going against his friends, if he believes for the betterment of | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
the country that Brexiter was the right option. I don't think it's | :54:50. | :54:56. | |
treacherous. Do you think it will stick? I don't think that is | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
accurate. He believed Britain is better off outside the EU. Who do | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
you predict will win? Theresa May. Boris. Michael Gove. Andrea | :55:06. | :55:15. | |
Leadsome. Theresa May. Thank you for coming in. | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
I dare say our attention will return to the Labour Party tomorrow. | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
The 1st of July on Friday, but no sign of the weather pattern | :55:26. | :55:44. | |
changing. 20 places seeing sunshine through a good part of the morning | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
but the clouds develop and the rain gets | :55:51. | :55:52. |