30/06/2016 Newsnight


Evan Davis looks at the Conservative Party leadership race.

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 30/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



APPLAUSE I don't often wear my heart on why


sleeve, I just get on with the job in front of me. APPLAUSE


What is your message for Michael Gove? What is your message for


Michael Gove? Having consulted colleagues, in view of the


circumstances in Parliament, I have concluded that the person cannot be


me. Boris negotiating Europe, last time


he did a deal with the Germans, he came back with three nearly new


water cannon... (!) LAUGHTER There is lots of talented people who


could be Prime Minister after David Cameron, but count me out. I don't


want to be Prime Minister. I could not be Prime Minister. I know that I


could not do it. I am not equipped to be Prime Minister. I don't want


to be a minister. I came reluctantly but firmly to the conclusion that I


should stand and Boris should stand aside.


You don't need me to recount the events of the day,


suffice to say that we've had more remarkable twists,


in a week that was already liable to cause motion sickness.


Tory MP Jake Berry who was backing Boris, tweeted:


"There is a very deep pit reserved in Hell


for such as he. #gove."


Now, you know how in conversation, men sometimes dominate


Well, the stage has been dominated by men.


For a couple of years it was about Boris vs Osborne.


And yet it's now Theresa May who has quietly become the front runner.


The bookies have her down as the new favourite.


That's not always a good place to be, by the way.


But we'll have more on her and the Conservative Party


in the programme, first though, the story of what has happened


Here's our political editor, Nick Watt.


VOICEOVER: They were the two big political beasts who were going to


remake Britain's place in the world after an intense month together on


the road, instead, within the space of just two hours, their


relationship disintegrated and the race to succeed David Cameron was


turned on its head. Boris Johnson has been the frontrunner among


Brexit Tories during the referendum campaign but in a sign of how he was


leaving no stone unturned, he dined with Paul Dacre at this discreet


Mayfair club earlier this month, he knew that if he was going to win the


contest, he had to win over the bible of Middle England. All seem to


be going swimmingly, with Boris Johnson's plan for number ten as


recently as yesterday afternoon. In an office tucked away in this


building, on the Parliamentary estate, Michael Gove's long-standing


friend, Nick Boles, was briefing the Boris team on the speech for his


campaign launch. But by this morning, he had a new job, campaign


manager for Michael Gove. Later that afternoon, an e-mail sent by Sarah


Vine, to her husband, one Michael Gove, was mysteriously leaked to the


press... (!)... Giving us the first hint that all was not well in team


Johnson Gove. The canary in the mine was the leaked e-mail, from


yesterday, a friend of mine e-mailed me and said, is Michael standing? I


e-mailed back, naively, as it turned out, saying I did not think he was.


The Boris Johnson campaign had seemed to be on such a smooth flight


path that the Sun newspaper printed an article overnight by the Justice


Minister, hailing his political qualities. It is 6am, Thursday, 30th


of June... A fellow Johnson ally had been expecting to cheer Dominic Ryan


on during a two-day show interview, but he was rudely interrupted with a


surprise request as he stepped out of the shower. I had a call at


5:45am, asking if I would step in and do the today programme with John


Humphrys, because Dominic had pulled out, I had no idea why this


happens... At such a late stage, Michael and Boris have been working


together for three months, stuck in a big bus, going around the country


together... You were due to do the today programme and you pulled out.


Absolutely, there is an element of this which is fast, people can have


their 24 hours, 48 hours, and when the dust settles, you have a choice,


candidates here will stand and leave the country, not just the


Conservative Party. The question is, what do you want? Shortly before


9am, Michael Gove addressed his new campaign team, in his ministerial


office in Westminster. Even long-standing friends thought they


were attending a Boris Johnson campaign team meeting. I was very


surprised by the announcement by Michael, I was not expecting it, and


about two minutes before he walked into the room I thought, something


is up, this is not quite normal, I thought it was a meeting to get me


onto Boris's team. The minute he stood up I knew that I was -- he was


in. At 9:02am, Michael Gove's team announced to the press that he was


standing for the leadership. Overnight, the Justice Secretary had


alerted allies of his decision, just as Boris was out making merry, not a


word was said to him or his team. I had no idea, when I got back to the


campaign headquarters, it started coming on the wires, none of us


knew... Boris did not know... After the bombshell from Michael Gove,


senior members of the Boris Johnson team hit the phones in their


campaign office to shore up support. At 11:20am, the former London Mayor


telephoned an ally, to say that he was abandoning his leadership bid


with the words, " I don't want to divide the party, I don't want to do


any Jeremy Corbyn". Other members of the team were kept in the dark until


Johnson spoke. I remember thinking, the longer he is, the less likely he


will be a candidate, if you are a candidate, you want to push your


message, get out there. We waited 20 minutes, and that made me think


perhaps he would withdraw. It was a strong speech, interesting, but it's


lacked energy. I think that was the tell-tale sign. Good morning,


everybody, thank you very much. World and, as to what happened


between five past nine, last night, when I got a message from Michael's


team, to this morning, shock, obviously... Michael Gove knows that


he stands guilty on two counts of treachery, running a referendum


campaign which brought down his one-time friend, David Cameron, and


abandoning his old friend, Boris Johnson, allies insist he followed


his conscience to withdraw support from someone who is simply not up to


the job of Prime Minister. I don't think people should read into this


some long-term Machiavellian strategy. I think that he agonised.


You genuinely think that this was a process? He has never set out with


the ambition to become Prime Minister, he is making this bid now,


and he wants to be Prime Minister now because he thinks that the right


person, he has looked at alternatives and does not think that


Boris Johnson is the alternative. Final straw for Michael Gove came


when Boris Johnson failed to live up to a commitment to guarantee a


senior campaign post to the energy minister, and Brexit campaigner,


Andrea Leadsom. Michael Gove believe this disqualified him from standing


as Prime Minister, on the grounds that he was a bit cavalier with his


allies or could not keep his word. Michael Gove now believes that his


hour has come, but one friend has said that he knows that he has got


to knock it out of the park tomorrow morning at his campaign launch if he


is to stand a chance against his archfoe, Theresa May. What about


Boris? STUDIO: We have with us


a panel of Tory members. The most powerful people


in the country right now. We should run down the road,


starting with you, who you are backing at this point? I am backing


Theresa May because I believe that she is a unifying candidate for the


party and the country. I agree with John, she is unifying. She is the


only person who is going to be good at being Prime Minister and she is a


tough negotiator. She looked the part today. Come on then, who are


you backing? Andrea Leadsom, she is the only character with -- candidate


with the toughness required, based on the mandate voted for last week.


Michael Gove is my man, he has conviction, competence, and also, I


would like to see next leader come from the vote Leave campaign. Who


were you backing yesterday? Good question...! LAUGHTER


Boris Johnson. So you went from Boris. In the hope there would be a


deal with Boris Johnson and Michael Gove. I am undecided, it is early


days, I want to see what contenders can offer, not just that the party


but for the country. We will come back to you all at the end of the


programme, I will be interested to see if you hear anything that


changes your mind. Is it edifying, are you impressed by what you have


seen? We love the drama, house of cards, but is it edifying? I don't


think anybody in the country would think it is, it has been like an


astonishing pantomime and that is why it is so important that we unify


behind a tough candidate, one who shows leadership qualities, who can


draw us together, and make sure that we do not do what the Labour Party


does right now. You, as journalists, you think it is quite fun, people


dropping like flies, everyone gossiping, standing... But actually,


in the country, I think people are really angry. The winds from the


referendum have not at all been solved by this. The more this goes


on, the worse this is. Show of hands, how many of you are annoyed


that you will not get a chance to vote for Boris, he will not be a


candidate. I would like to have had him on the ballot, because he would


have emphasised a politics which no other politician can offer at the


moment. We will come back to you at the end of the programme.


It's a paradox, but while today has been one of the Tories messiest,


the in-fighting and backbiting does appear mainly personal now,


Deeply personal. Four-letter word personal.


not among the five leadership candidates anyway.


Look at what they are actually saying, and you discern a certain


unity that we've forgotten the Conservative party


It may not last, it may not suit some of the old guard,


but it was all there in Theresa May's


For one thing, she and the others appear to be putting their ghastly


She the Remainer, yielding to Leave.


Turnout was high, the public gave their verdict.


There are voices that don't agree, but it's not much of an issue


Then there's another refrain you're hearing,


that it's time to have an elite weakening,


opportunity supporting, class-ridding capitalism.


Because Britain still needs a government capable of delivering a


programme of serious social reform, and realising a vision of a country


that truly works for everyone. All that austerity stuff, you know,


getting borrowing down, everything the party has been


doing for six years. Well, it was looking difficult,


so now's an opportunity to junk it. We should no longer seek


to reduce a budget surplus If before 2020 there


is a choice between spending, further spending cuts,


more borrowing and tax rises, the priority must be


to avoid tax increases, since they will disrupt consumption,


employment and investment. I suspect other candidates


will follow suit Theresa May and the others are


sounding broadly aligned. Now, what about


Theresa May the person? She has risen to front runner status


by doing everything She's not the most personable


of candidates, she doesn't butter


up the backbenchers in the teabar. She's not the charismatic


communicator that Boris Johnson is, Her line is that she gets


on with the job. It was the first track


she chose when she appeared but Theresa May has never felt


she had to walk like a man Today the bookie's favourite to be


Tory leader launched her bid


to become the second ever I don't gossip about people over


lunch, I don't go drinking


in Parliament's bars. I don't often wear my


heart on my sleeve. I just get on with the job


in front of me. and I think I'm the best person to


be Prime Minister of this country. Well, Theresa has never played


by what people have come to regard as the normal rules


of politics, doing favours, She's always been absolutely


straightforward saying, "I've got a job to do,


I'll get on with that job and I'll do it to


the best of my ability And in a sense it's the way


politicians used to operate before An anti-politician then,


and the ultimate survivor. Her first foray into public


consciousness came with a speech to Tory conference


is a really nonentity. -- to Tory conference


as a really nonentity. You know what some people call us?


The nasty party. It was a watershed moment


in the attempts to break with her party's toxic past,


although not everyone Theresa May doesn't yearn to be


liked, but that didn't stop her rising up the ranks under


various Conservative leaders. Her reputation is as a conscientious


hard worker, who put As the longest serving


Home Secretary in 50 years, she's championed gay marriage


and other progressive causes, but also the likes


of the snooper's charter. There have been riots on her watch


and she has presided over the failed But it's her stand-off


with the police that's If you do not change


of your own accord, I think that slight straightforward


way has actually won her a lot of fans from MPs who have only


known her really as Home Secretary. Previous home secretaries have had


all sorts of things going on, but she's not shied away


from the hard things. May has been compared with Angela


Merkel. Both have an immense grasp


of detail, both take In her bid to be leader,


May has already dropped her long-standing opposition


to the European Convention on human rights, to appeal


to the party's liberal wing. Her position during the referendum


also appears pragmatic. On the Remain side,


but remaining aloof. Far be it from me to interfere


with the Tory leadership campaign, we've got enough problems


of our own. But I think she's played it very


cannily in her own interests in terms of the European referendum


campaign, by keeping a low profile. We are in an era where people


are both sick of flamboyant politics, as we've known it,


even when they are She may be able to benefit from that


anti-politics, as we've known it, the low-key,


the slightly more reserved and more


thoughtful aspects. If she does become Conservative


leader, Theresa May will have done it without playing by the normally


accepted rules of politics. It will make her the first


Home Secretary since Winston Churchill to


reach the very top. Reports suggest Theresa May is


exhausting to negotiate with. There is suggestions David Cameron avoided


confrontations with his Home Secretary. But those skills may


appear useful as the exit looms. A quick look now, at what we think


the state of play is in terms of MPs Andrea Leadsome on 14,


and Gove on 12. Well, I'm joined now


by the Cabinet Office Who are you going to support? Anyone


who has watched the news knows we are in incredibly difficult times


and we need somebody with a steady hand, who has proven leadership


credentials. So I will be backing Theresa May. Why not Michael Gove? I


go back a long way with Michael. Exactly. He is a brilliant man, but


given everything that has happened over the past week, especially, we


need somebody who is steady and steadfast, determined. And over six


years at the Home Office, one of the most successful home secretaries in


history, you could argue, I think Theresa May is the person, right


now, to provide that stability. You have told us, this hasn't been


announced before you got here, have you spoken to George Osborne about


your decision to back Theresa May? I did tell him. I would have supported


George had he ran. He decided not to. Each day that passes, I think


the country, more and more, is looking for stability and certainty


and a clear way forward. She has got the leadership. She is also she


comes from the same sort of one Nation heritage that I care deeply


about. We saw that in the package, I thought. We are interested in what


you think, but also interested in what George Osborne things. When you


said you were backing Theresa May, did he look pleased, interested


first remark he hasn't declared yet. Other than saying he is not running


himself. Michael Gove says it should be a Brexiteer, given the vote last


week, what do you think of that argument? What Theresa May can do is


bring the party together, she can provide the unity. There are five


candidates, out of all of them, she is best placed to bring, not a party


together, but also the country together. I thought the speech today


was a good example of that, making sure the economy works for


everybody. We have had this incredibly difficult and divisive


referendum campaign. A very close results. Questions over whether the


economic recovery is reaching all parts of the country and whether


people who are disrupted, have been disrupted by new technology and


globalisation. I think she can deliver on that agenda. Brexit means


Brexit. You were a remainder, she was a remainder, but you all laxity


is now. Does that mean people who feel passionately about Remain, and


it is more important than the difference between Labour and Tory,


should now assume there is no place for them thinking of voting Tory?


The Tory is a sceptic party, don't vote Tory if you want to remain. We


are clear that we accept the decision of the British people. I


argued for Remain. If there was reform in Europe of some kind, can


you imagine the Tory party going back and saying, let's think about


this again? Suppose they gave us a really bad deal, could you imagine


saying, this is not good, let's go back in. You have got to respect the


will of the people. If you were a remainder, the Tory party is not for


you? We and the Labour Party all voted for this referendum. When you


vote for a referendum, I am a Democrat before anything else. She


gave a big chunk of her launch statement to the need to break class


barriers and increase social mobility and opportunity. I wonder


if you could take that as a criticism. Because haven't you been


doing everything to break down barriers and create opportunity? It


shows there is so much more to be done. It is an area I have been


working on in government and I think we have made some progress. I think


the referendum result demonstrated there is clearly more to do.


Tackling issues around social mobility are incredibly important.


It is the kind of Conservative Party I want to be in and that is the kind


of Conservative Party leader I want. How upset are you that she said


essentially, abandon the fiscal targets. The last election was


fought on those fiscal targets. A lot of people said they are not


achievable, or not worth achieving and a year in, we have had the


target abandoned. Circumstances have changed. How? We have just voted to


leave the European Union. But he won't even committed to being in at


that point, he must have planned for this? Government policy was to stay


in. We warned in advance. Government policy wasn't to stay in? Yes it


was, government Wallasey in the run-up to the referendum... No,


run-up to the election. There was a deficit target that has now been


abandoned. You can pick at the semantics, but something huge has


changed, we have voted to leave the European Union. I have said before


that, as did many respected independent forecasters, the impact


of that is likely to be negative for the taxpayer and the fiscal numbers.


It is perfectly reasonable, when that has happened, and that wasn't


part of the plans, the plans were to stay in, you have to look at the


fiscal picture again. It is not a problem at all for my support of


Theresa May. I am a fiscal conservative, I want to deal with


the deficit. But you have got to change when the circumstances


change. Thank you very much indeed. To stab one colleague in the back


looks unfortunate. To stab two, looks


like ruthlessness. But that is what


Michael Gove has done. He abandoned David Cameron


and opposed him in the referendum, and then Mr Gove abandoned


Boris Johnson with but a few The treachery tag may


stick to Mr Gove - it did to Ed Miliband for example


for what he did to his brother. But it might be that Gove is just


a conviction politician, who can't help but stand


by what he believes, Chris Cook looks at the man


and his beliefs. I believe the people should have the


choice to be members of a union. Michael Gove has a slightly sure


we're past than most politicians. As a younger man, he tried his hand at


comedy. He is neither a spectator columnist or a sociologist, he an


armed robber. Some of Michael Gove's university friends told me they


didn't expect him to be a politician. They thought he would be


a Scottish Stephen Fry. He has an instinct to provoke, and entertain.


His officials and advisers still say his desire to be interesting above


all, sometimes gets him into scrapes. Or, just total weirdness.


My favourite character in a game of thrones is... Hey everybody take a


look at me I have street credibility. As Education Secretary


he drove massive reforms. Michael Gove, the demented Dalek of speed.


After a brief spell as Chief Whip, he has used his tenure as Justice


Secretary to shake up prisons. Michael is committed to the issues


of aspiration, social justice, the things I care about. I want to see


that with the next leader of the Conservative Party and Prime


Minister. Is he a detail man? He is all over detail, I looked at the way


he conducted himself in Cabinet and the Prime prison reforms, I think he


is the right person for the task. One area Mr Gove has some


distinctive use is the Northern Irish peace process. In 2000 he


wrote a pamphlet for the CPS in which he argued their approach to


Republican terrorist reminded him of appeasement in the 1930s. He wrote a


book in which he argued Islamist terrorists had been encouraged by


the way Britain had dealt with Northern Ireland. Looking at this


pamphlet he wrote in 2000, it is further out than the DUP. He accuses


the Good Friday agreement of being appeasement and suggests we rip it


up and go back to fighting the IRA. It is awhile taught. Is Northern


Ireland likely to be in issue in the coming years? I have just been in


Northern Ireland and it is a bit tense. The outcome of the


referendum, when Northern Ireland voted to remain, means people have


been on edge. Cabinet colleagues of Michael Gove say he is a hardliner


on this issue, as he is on Islamist extremism. He is a neo-conservative,


in favour of the Iraq war. He attacked the Daily Mail's coolness


on it. In foreign affairs and other areas of life, if we were to follow


the Daily Mail's advice, we would be heading for disaster. But this week,


a leaked e-mail from his wife thought they could win over the


editor of the Daily Mail. Wrongly, it has emerged this evening. He has


gone for Theresa May. The leaked e-mail suggested I could get the


support of Rupert Murdoch. Official documents showed Mr Gove, a former


employee of Rupert Murdoch has met with the executives. And they met at


a recent wedding and Mr Murdoch suggested Michael Gove should run,


this week. It is observed and it is true that Michael Gove is personally


courteous. But there is a wrinkle. It is very striking people who cause


Mr Gove personal difficulty, often face vitriolic press coverage


shortly afterwards. That applies whether you are a Cabinet minister,


like Caroline Spelman or Philip Hammond, or a journalist like me. In


2011, I was the education reporter at the Financial Times. I reported


Michael Gove had been using his white's personal e-mail account for


public business. It kept information at the hands of officials he didn't


trust, and a wave of Freedom of information requests. I got a wave


of nasty, personal press comments by friends of Michael Gove, and


anonymous Twitter accounts repeatedly abused me and attempts


were made to get the company that owns the Financial Times, to fire


me. Michael Gove has less polite people on hand. Dominic Cummings,


his most aggressive aid and a former bigwig invoked Leave. I would


characterise Michael Gove as being a radical conservative. It is easy to


think of him as very much in the same stable as David Cameron. They


became part of this compassionate, modernising force in the


Conservative Party. But what I have learned working with and seeing


Michael's activities and views over a sustained period of time, is he


and the Prime Minister are very different individuals. The Prime


Minister is a small sea Conservative and Michael Gove is a radical. Say


what you like, but life under Michael Gove's Premiership wouldn't


be dull. STUDIO: Well, I'm joined now by two


Mps who until this morning were both Now that he's out, Jacob Rees-Mogg


has switched to Michael Gove, while Nadhim Zahawi is now backing


Theresa May. what do you think of his behaviour


this morning? i think that he has changed his mind, i think that


politicians ought to change their mind and announce it to the public,


what he has done is extremely rave, it came late in the day, nobody in


their right mind would have plotted it this way, so i am convinced it is


genuine, came to aching delusion, told everybody, he will be an


excellent prime minister. michael has been a great campaigner for the


vote leave campaign, huge talent, the bit you have missed out...


prison reform, it is incredibly valuable. I was shocked, this


morning, 9:05pm, last night. His special adviser saying, we are all


on, looking forward to seeing you for Boris's launch. Does it matter?


It does not, we move on. Why are you supporting him, he has made a


difficult decision, to push his friend out of the way but if he is


still a better leader, why would you not support him? As you have heard


from my co-author, Matt Hancock, Paymaster General, the leader should


be someone who can unite the country, 17 million people voted


out, there should be somebody who could deliver for those people


especially those on the national living wage, who were hurt by


freedom of movement but also those who can govern for the 48% who want


to remain. What that means for me, for the people who wanted to remain,


they want to see the economy being robust and strong and a settlement


with Europe. Theresa May called me in, I met with her today, she


reassured me that the negotiating team will be led by Brexiteers and


she has the steely resolve that she wants to get a deal, she is stubborn


enough to do that and get a deal on the economy. She can unite the


membership. In Stratford-upon-Avon, he told me, that they are


overwhelmingly behind it. Why are you picking Michael Gove? In some


ways, he does not look the winner that Theresa May does, not quite


unify. I have always thought that Michael Gove would be an excellent


candidate and a brilliant Prime Minister, I encouraged him to stand


early on, before he had decided not to. It is natural for me to support


him now, it is essential that the new leader supported leave. You are


rolling out half the party, basically? I am, this is a very big


decision that the British electorate have made, it needs to be in the


hands of someone they can trust you really believe that leave is what we


want. -- ruling out. There will be some compromises that must be made


with European Union. The issue about treachery is clearly going to be


around him, hanging around him. Your party used it against Ed Miliband in


the general election... That was against his brother. You did it


against Ed Miliband. That is against his brother, fraternal infighting is


different from someone who says as a matter of principle, I think the


leader I was going to support is not going to be successful. They have


known each other for 30 years. Do you think the treachery tag will


hang around? People will draw their own conclusions, they spent three


months with Boris on the bus going up and down the country, came on


board as soon as the result was known, to chair the campaign. Boris


had very little notice. Now we have five strong candidates.


It would have been idiotic to plan it that way, he's correctness in


doing it is assumed by the reverse, that if he had decided to back a


candidate in whom he no longer have confidence, that would be letting


the country down, once he has come to that conclusion, he had to


announce it, however late, however personally inconvenient, and chosen


to be a man of considerable strength.


So what's the story with Boris Johnson?


In his lively journey over the years, the rise, the fall,


the next rise, the latest fall, he has exposed something,


how stale many other politicians are, in projecting


The jovial persona appealed to many, but perhaps there is


That you can only go so far with the antics,


For those who see Westminster populated by identical cutouts, Oris


Johnson did not just stand out, he dwarfed many more senior


politicians, there is now a Boris Johnson shaped hole in the


Conservative leadership campaign and, who knows, perhaps in politics


as well. The crimes he has the most astonishing ability to communicate


with the wider public, to carry them with him, on television and even if


he walks into a shopping centre, most politicians, they would be


irritated by someone in a shopping centre, if they are on their way to


the chemist, but Boris transforms the atmosphere, at least until the


last few days. Even the people who regarded him as a clown found him


entertaining. In that respect he was a bigger figure than anybody else in


British politics. Are you going to upstage the Prime Minister? The


cameras would have been drawn to Oris in a room full of rock stars


and models, other mere politicians never stood a chance and for


political journalists, desperate for something interesting to report


upon, he was the mother load. We haven't had a story all week, help


us! Say something ill considered. I speak round, unvarnished


common-sense! Boris did not disappoint, except those he worked


for, party leaders found him unmanageable, distracting, he could


shred the meticulously formulated newsgroup with a raffle of his


health. What do you do with a problem like Boris? He has strong


views about lots of things... David Cameron's predecessor, Michael


Howard, had fired Boris Johnson from a junior French French job for lying


about an affair, Cameron offered his former school friend redemption in


municipal politics. -- from a junior front bench job. Are we ready? Yes


we are! As London mayor during the Olympics, Oris Johnson went


international, seen by his party as very useful, if a little too fond of


acting the fool. That changed abruptly with the referendum and his


support for vote leave, now seen as a mortal threat and the


establishment went for him ruthlessly. You cannot call him a


liar, he is one of those people in life you simply does not understand


the difference between fact and fiction. Even those who had worked


closely with him accused him of opportunism. It was a spectacular


miscalculation, I don't think his heart was in it. He is a uniquely


good communicator, he almost single-handedly helped deliver 17


million people to vote for this course of action. In the end, having


secured that victory, really, Michael Gove among others had some


doubts, grave doubts, about whether Boris Johnson was going to deliver


on what he persuaded the British public to vote for. There lies the


mistake in the end, the miscalculation on a key issue of our


day, and he has paid the price for it, the rest of us are paying


heavily for it as well. After the result, the anger of frustrated


remain voters focused on Boris, and for a man used to popularity, it was


deeply upsetting. After his many mishaps, Boris Johnson has been fond


of quoting this song. But can he really gets up again this time? If


asked to play some minor role, in the next Conservative government, he


will play it with good grace, and he will wait and see what happens. So


we have not seen the end of Boris Johnson? I certainly don't think


that we have seen the end of him. Boris Johnson will probably always


be able to draw a crowd at will, but some are doubtful that he will ever


be a serious political force again. As a politician whose main qualities


were integrity, political courage, and an ability to unite people and


make them smile and feel good about themselves and feel good about the


UK, I am not sure there is a way back after the events of the last


few weeks and months. National treasure, yes, politician, busted.


It's the point in the programme where we sit back with a drink,


and mull over the political dramas of the day.


This is a bit of a story here, the Daily Mail, look at the cover, a


party in flames and why it must be Theresa Yesterday, Sarah Vine seemed


to imply... She has been disappointed in those hopes.


Regarding Paul Dacre. She looks like the winner, the tag of treachery is


going to stick, it is one thing for him to decide as a matter of


principle to back Brexit and go against his old friend David


Cameron, it is another for him to drop his friend, his close friend of


30 years, at a moments notice, leaving him absolutely no scope


except to withdraw. Politics is a dirty game, but many people will


say, that is going too far. You would support Theresa May? Yes,


reluctantly, she is remain and I am Brexit. She has integrity. She knows


what she wants, and she will have a broad base. She might get a Murdoch


endorsement. Murdoch loves Michael Gove. That is a bit more combative.


What about the other two? The Treasury tag, has it finished in? A


number of Tory MPs that I spoke with, not just those backing Boris


but more generally were shot with Michael Gove's betrayal of Boris and


the way that he did it at the last minute, leaving Boris Johnson with


only a few minutes before the deadline for nominations what he was


going to do, that is a huge trust issue for Michael Gove to go ahead


with in any circumstances, let alone when he needs to reunite the Tory


party after this incredibly divisive referendum, the lead should contest


is going to be very bitter, he will struggle to make the case for him


being leader and the Tory party... He cannot be a healer. You have


written an excoriating piece about Boris a couple of months ago, so you


must have been pleased that he has been edged out. I thought he would


be a great liability to the Conservative Party in any general


election, yes, from the party 's point of view, I am pleased. I'm not


quite sure that Stephen and Isabella are right about the effect of the


assassinations that Michael Gove has carried out on the Parliamentary


Conservative Party, they quite like assassinations, they quite like


toughness, his old image was really a rather unworldly, terribly


intellectual, elaborate the courteous character, we have seen a


new Michael Gove, some people will like that. Who are you supporting in


this? In ten years' time I would be supporting Stephen Crabb, at the


moment, Theresa May seems to be the unifying candidate. Do we feel the


Conservative Party has found equilibria? Whether it is


sustainable or not, the candidates in to be saying the same things, in


their hustings launches, opportunity capitalism... Absolutely, for


instance, it has been a bad week for the old attorney and, suddenly, the


party has become quite levelling. Very keen to raise the condition of


the poor, not sure about capitalism, it would like a kind of guided


capitalism. There is a gathering consensus around and importantly


different version of conservativism. Do you buy that? A lot of talk,


let's see where the action is. Progressive, but they want to help


the poor. We have heard this before. Let's see what happens. One


significant thing, as said about the deficit. She has said, let's not


worry about that. Everything we have heard from Osborne has been thrown


out of the window. Extraordinary development. So money things are


happening at once, difficult to take it in!


I think the Tory party will pull together. I think it is unlikely


Michael Gove can win this, I think Theresa May will win it. They even


managed to reach a consensus on Brexit. All of the candidates have


made it clear they will implement an exit. No one has said we must resist


this. Stephen Crabb and Theresa May as Remain campaigners have made that


clear. Matthew, you were a remain, I wonder whether now you feel the


party, which is so clearly, and Matthew Hancock said it again, this


is not a party for Remain. We are all excited about personal dramas,


but there is some huge policy decisions ahead. Our terms of


departure from the European Union is one of them. Matthew Hancock did not


bite on your suggestion that if the best deal we can come up with looks


awful, we might think again. But we might. You still think there is a


bit of Remain Hope left in the party? Absolutely, they are


terrified of this issue coming up again. They don't want a general


election. Only Ukip could do well in a general election. I will wonder if


there will be a leadership election. I was going to ask the same. If you


are backing to Reza may, do we need to take the country to this agony


for the next 11 weeks? Boris has only just hold out and there are


other impressive candidates. We have other backers of Boris who might


come out in favour for Andrea Leadsome. We haven't talked about


her. Maybe we should talk about the other candidates. If MPs go ahead


with this and boat the two that go forward to the members. Here you do


think the other member will be? I have a hunch there may be two women.


That is based on conversations with Tory MPs, who have been impressed


with Andrea Leadsome. It would be amazing if he didn't have someone


who had campaigned for Brexit. Andrea Leadsome was incredibly


impressive during the referendum campaign. She was very, very good,


as was Boris, but he doesn't have any rewards for it. It is possible


that she could be one of the final two. Would you mind if the


leadership election was called off? The Tory party has its rituals, so


it would be unlikely to do that. It would be good for the country,


better to get a Prime Minister before the 9th of September. We are


looking at the potential of having a new British Prime Minister, an


American president and the German Chancellor. Angela May with batch --


Theresa May would match Angela Merkel. Let's leave it there.


Meanwhile, back in the real world the great challenge of renegotiating


a new EU relationship still confronts us.


The pre-posturing is still underway, we don't know which comments to take


But when Article 50 is eventually invoked, we'll be negotiating


with the unelected EU Commission acting under the influence


of the heads of state in the European Council


A key issue for us is trade, and our diplomatic editor Mark Urban


who's in Brussels this week, managed to sit down


If we look at Canada for example, talks started seven years ago,


No, we're done, we just have to be...


Maybe, it depends on how it's ratified.


In the light of that, is the article 50 provision that EU


and the UK have two tie everything up in two years realistic?


The article 50 has actually never been tested, it's a new article


And as far as I understand it, it is about regulating how the exit


Member states can prolong the period if it takes longer,


but the actual relationship between us and the United Kingdom


in the future will not be negotiated in article 50.


That is the terms of exit, so that will take even longer.


It's to negotiate the new relationship?


It is about the terms of exit, so there are two negotiations.


First you exit, then you negotiate the terms,


the new relationship, whatever that is.


So what position do you see the UK being in between exiting


and having its new terms of trade in place?


Right now, they are members, we are 28.


And until they exit, they will remain members.


So the referendum, which of course we take note and respect,


First, there has to be a notification, which the next time


Then the process can start and then we will have to see


all the practicalities that are linked to this


And then depending on how the United Kingdom, they have


to define what kind of relationship they want to have with the EU.


Then that'll have to be negotiated by our heads of states.


But while they are working towards that...


But once those two years are up, they are out?


In the years, if we follow the Canadian example,


it could be even seven or eight years before a new trade deal


is in place, on what basis are the EU 27 and Britain doing business,


There would be a third country there.


But that then presumably would be very damaging for supply chains,


all sorts of things, French companies,


Danish companies, British companies?


Do you worry that we've passed at high tide of openness to free


trade, increasingly when you hear for example, French objections


to what you are trying to negotiate with the Americans, that


protectionism, nationalism will prevent further major


There are lots of studies we've had, there has been won from the OECD,


there has been one from different independent trade related think


tanks and organisations coming lately that shows protectionism


And we see all over the world, not just in Europe, the US


and elsewhere as well, hostility towards trade,


which worries me because trade of course is a fabulous mean


to increase jobs and investment and bring people closer to each other.


And there is a raise in protectionism and that's why it


saddens me that the UK was traditionally a friend of free


The voice defending free trade will be weaker.


At the beginning of the programme we saw this panel of Conservative Party


members. The most powerful people in the country at the moment because


they are picking the next Prime Minister. You have heard a lot


today? One of the things we can be proud of is we have a good range of


candidates within the party to choose from. Stephen Crabb has a


working-class background. Michael Gove is an intellectual. We can be


comforted by the fact in comparison to Labour. But I am undecided, I


want to see what they can offer, especially to the country. Two of


view, not supporting Theresa May. You have heard people saying, scrap


the leadership election and anoint to Reza may because the Daily Mail


backs her and a lot of MPs are backing her. Would you be annoyed if


the contest was taken out of your hands? Absolutely. Democracy is not


in the hands of Paul Dacre. The idea you have two ignore the people, is


preposterous. Let's not pretend you are the people. It is on vertical


Michael Gove treacherous because he followed his conviction. I admire


him for going against his friends, if he believes for the betterment of


the country that Brexiter was the right option. I don't think it's


treacherous. Do you think it will stick? I don't think that is


accurate. He believed Britain is better off outside the EU. Who do


you predict will win? Theresa May. Boris. Michael Gove. Andrea


Leadsome. Theresa May. Thank you for coming in.


I dare say our attention will return to the Labour Party tomorrow.


The 1st of July on Friday, but no sign of the weather pattern


changing. 20 places seeing sunshine through a good part of the morning


but the clouds develop and the rain gets


Download Subtitles