16/08/2016 Newsnight


16/08/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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For many he was the most annoying man in the country.

:00:00.:00:11.

But he was also one of the most dangerous.

:00:12.:00:13.

But alongside Choudary, another man was convicted.

:00:14.:00:16.

Less flamboyant in the media, arguably more of a threat.

:00:17.:00:20.

We have an interview with him, from earlier this year.

:00:21.:00:24.

This term radicalising, you need to define it.

:00:25.:00:28.

Is Jeremy Corbyn radicalising the Labour Party, for example?

:00:29.:00:30.

By the time this airs, you might be in jail.

:00:31.:00:34.

Yearn for the days of the old British Rail?

:00:35.:00:42.

This is the Night Mail crossing the border, bringing the cheque

:00:43.:00:45.

Letters for the rich, letters for the poor,

:00:46.:00:48.

the shop at the corner and the girl next door.

:00:49.:00:50.

Jeremy Corbyn wants the trains back in public ownership.

:00:51.:00:54.

We'll ask his transport spokesman if that's a good idea.

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And Ainsley Harriet clambers off our Throne of Games to get

:01:08.:01:09.

For years, he enjoyed needling everyone with his silly

:01:10.:01:30.

pronouncements, that Buckingham Palace will become

:01:31.:01:32.

But Anjem Choudary was not just a harmless controversialist -

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he spread hate for two decades, attempted to radicalise others

:01:38.:01:40.

and for some of that period invited them to join so-called

:01:41.:01:43.

Islamic State, an organisation proscribed under the

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He could now be handed a maximum jail sentence of ten years.

:01:47.:01:54.

But, while Choudary is very well known, alongside him was another

:01:55.:01:56.

character, Mizanur Rahman, a character who had also done a lot

:01:57.:02:00.

to attract vulnerable minds to jihad.

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The police said that Rahman and Choudary had stayed just

:02:12.:02:13.

within the law for many years, but when they pledged an oath

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of allegiance to IS, they had stepped over a line

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Talk a bit about Anjem Choudary and when he came from. He was not always

:02:19.:02:32.

part of the Islamist scene, he grew up in London and when he went to

:02:33.:02:36.

university he reportedly drank alcohol and had girlfriends. But

:02:37.:02:41.

after qualifying as a solicitor he helped to found a radical group

:02:42.:02:46.

outward jackaroo which was subsequently banned. It kept

:02:47.:02:50.

changing its name all the time to evade the attention of the

:02:51.:02:53.

authorities. And Anjem Choudary became a source of frustration to

:02:54.:02:58.

the authorities who thought he was dangerous but not quite ever

:02:59.:03:05.

breaking the law. Until now. Because today restrictions in court were

:03:06.:03:08.

lifted allowing us to reveal that three weeks ago he was convicted of

:03:09.:03:14.

having pledged support online to Isis and having encouraged in his

:03:15.:03:18.

videos others to support and join the group. This is a significant

:03:19.:03:22.

moment, the general of Anjem Choudary, he has linked -- been

:03:23.:03:28.

linked to 100 British jihadis. The followers for example of his when

:03:29.:03:31.

fourth in the killing of Drummer Lee Rigby in Woolwich. We know other

:03:32.:03:36.

followers of his way involved in 2010 plot to blow up the London

:03:37.:03:42.

stock exchange. Not as Tierney UK, a large number of people have gone to

:03:43.:03:48.

Syria for example, some quite high profile like one who took his young

:03:49.:03:53.

family to Syria. And another killed in a drone strike in Syria last

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year. Others whose names have never come into the public domain. Once I

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logged off, a follower from north London who went out to Syria. And

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another one of his followers to the right of the screen, and I

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understand that he is now dead. That is Anjem Choudary, and also was this

:04:20.:04:26.

other guy and most people will not have heard of him I think.

:04:27.:04:30.

Absolutely, there is a clique around Anjem Choudary, some of them have

:04:31.:04:34.

higher profiles. His co-defendant Mizanur Rahman in my view was just

:04:35.:04:39.

as significant and perhaps even more so than Anjem Choudary when it comes

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to the Syrian conflict. How is the campaign to move Britain

:04:44.:04:45.

over to sharia law coming along? Anjem Choudary attracted

:04:46.:04:48.

headlines but amongst jihadi circles he gradually

:04:49.:04:52.

became less significant. In recent years it was his

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right-hand man, Mizanur Rahman, Rahman had spent four years in jail

:04:54.:04:57.

already for soliciting murder For Islam to prevail,

:04:58.:05:05.

for sharia to be implemented, to support the state, to help,

:05:06.:05:17.

it is not just about financing. Just like Anjem Choudary,

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Mizanur Rahman was someone that provided the theological basis

:05:27.:05:32.

for people to go But what was different,

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what sets him apart from someone like Anjem Choudary is the fact

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that he was very willing and active in engaging directly

:05:38.:05:40.

with people over social media, Giving direct advice,

:05:41.:05:42.

theological advice. In January whilst he was still

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on bail, I met Rahman. Like Anjem Choudary,

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he has always been someone These terms, radicalising,

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you need to define it. Is Jeremy Corbyn radicalising

:05:50.:05:58.

the Labour Party for example? If you mean am I debating people

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and convincing people that my ideas might be correct, well,

:06:01.:06:08.

that's what you do in a debate. Even if those ideas at times

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break the law? We have already established

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that we stay within At times they break

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the law. By the time this airs,

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you might be in jail. Because there is a political system

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in place which doesn't really Rahman tried to be careful

:06:28.:06:32.

in his language. This was an exchange of text

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messages between him Choudhury says to Rahman,

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"open support for Isis or Jabhat Rahman replies, "maybe condemning

:06:39.:06:45.

Shia and the Free Syria Army and a general call for

:06:46.:06:53.

sharia in Syria without The declaration of a caliphate

:06:54.:06:55.

by Isis pushed Rahman towards more explicit support,

:06:56.:07:02.

but without a passport, One Twitter exchange he had

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with a young American Muslim He is asked if preaching is more

:07:05.:07:13.

important than helping He replies, preaching is important,

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but it's also obligatory A few months later, the American

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was arrested at an airport And the concept of a Khilafah

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is 1400 years old. You know, someone does not have one

:07:31.:07:37.

twitter conversation and they decide to change their whole

:07:38.:07:43.

life based on one tweet. Rahman insisted in court

:07:44.:07:46.

to that his talks were about general There is a network around these

:07:47.:08:08.

people. What does the conviction of these paired mean for that network?

:08:09.:08:15.

Well when they were arrested in September 2014, at the time the

:08:16.:08:19.

authorities I think are desperate to crack this network, not just in the

:08:20.:08:24.

UK but have franchises across Europe, Belgium, Holland and

:08:25.:08:28.

Denmark. They were worried about the possibility of attacks here and

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subsequently with this conviction, the network has been significantly

:08:32.:08:36.

disrupted. We have seen large numbers of the network who have

:08:37.:08:40.

already gone to Syria. And I can reveal that recently quite a large

:08:41.:08:44.

number of the followers of Anjem Choudary have been placed on

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terrorism prevention orders and they're under curfews and restricted

:08:50.:08:51.

access. For headline writers,

:08:52.:08:53.

the words rail and misery seem to flow on to the page together,

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like fat and cat or rip and off. And today, there are those headlines

:08:56.:08:59.

of rail misery again - regulated train fares

:09:00.:09:01.

are going up, we learned this The usual understandable

:09:02.:09:03.

anger erupted, what with And from the Labour leader,

:09:04.:09:06.

a potential solution. He called it Transport Tuesday -

:09:07.:09:13.

jumping on the Super Saturday bandwagon perhaps -

:09:14.:09:16.

and the solution he promised was public ownership

:09:17.:09:18.

of the railways. There is one specific pledge: I'll

:09:19.:09:23.

quote it to you, from "The plans could see rail passengers

:09:24.:09:25.

save 10 per cent off So the big question is,

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complain as we might about our trains, would public

:09:31.:09:33.

ownership be a solution or a distraction to the problems

:09:34.:09:35.

of running a railway. We'll talk to Labour's transport

:09:36.:09:39.

spokesman shortly but first, Chris Cook looks at what

:09:40.:09:41.

nationalisation might mean. The idea of allowing companies

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to run train services was simple - in return for making a profit,

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private investors would take some risk off the taxpayer,

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encourage innovation, and use their balance

:09:56.:09:58.

sheet to invest. The misery of Southern Rail

:09:59.:10:02.

is the latest chapter in a long Industrial action, cancelled

:10:03.:10:12.

and overcrowded trains, and growing political

:10:13.:10:18.

support for renationalisation. The best way is for the public

:10:19.:10:23.

to run it, as the public ran the East Coast Mainline,

:10:24.:10:26.

at a profit. This is not a sensible way

:10:27.:10:28.

of running a public railway system which we have all paid

:10:29.:10:31.

for through huge levels of public investment in the track

:10:32.:10:34.

and signalling systems. Today we learned that

:10:35.:10:39.

fares will rise by 1.9% in January in Great Britain,

:10:40.:10:43.

while consumer price And research by trade unions

:10:44.:10:45.

suggests rail fares have increased at double the speed

:10:46.:10:52.

of wages since 2010. Many of the problems we have

:10:53.:10:59.

with our dysfunctional privatised system as it stands at the moment

:11:00.:11:03.

is precisely that the fragmentation and of course the cost of that,

:11:04.:11:06.

which means that instead of our fares going to invest

:11:07.:11:09.

in the rail system, instead they are going out into the hands

:11:10.:11:12.

of private shareholders. The underlying problem

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is that our railway Back in 2011, an official report

:11:18.:11:20.

implied a journey that would cost around ?1.20 in fare and public

:11:21.:11:26.

subsidy in other European countries So, our fares in 2011 were about 30%

:11:27.:11:29.

higher than those of our peers. The most important reason

:11:30.:11:38.

why our rail is so important The flip side of our very

:11:39.:11:44.

beautiful Victorian stations is we have a lot of Victorian rail,

:11:45.:11:49.

which is expensive We are also, as a country,

:11:50.:11:52.

tending to run a lot more services with relatively

:11:53.:11:59.

few passengers on them, and that, too, boosts our

:12:00.:12:01.

underlying cost base. Those unusually high costs mainly

:12:02.:12:05.

relate to Network Rail, which runs the track,

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and that's already nationalised. The private train operating

:12:12.:12:14.

companies, they made over ?200 million of profit last year,

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but that money would only fund Advocates for franchising see that

:12:19.:12:21.

as a price worth paying There is one big number

:12:22.:12:29.

that matters most. Under British Rail, numbers using

:12:30.:12:35.

the railways consistently fell. Since 1995 when it was privatised,

:12:36.:12:38.

journeys have doubled in just 20 years, but I think that franchising

:12:39.:12:41.

has a lot of problems. It's not necessarily a natural

:12:42.:12:44.

way to run railways. All across the world,

:12:45.:12:46.

including here, companies build their railways up,

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track and train together. Separating them as we do,

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forcing them to be separate, Southern's recent woes may be

:12:51.:12:53.

another cause for pause. In this case, a private company

:12:54.:13:00.

doesn't actually have that much They are just being paid a fee

:13:01.:13:03.

to administer the railway Right now, it strikes me

:13:04.:13:08.

that we are getting We have the privatised system

:13:09.:13:14.

plus a government that What we would have I think

:13:15.:13:17.

if the company were properly in public hands, and I don't just

:13:18.:13:21.

mean the state, we could have more imaginative systems of mutuals,

:13:22.:13:25.

local authorities getting more involved, but if it were in public

:13:26.:13:28.

hands, for a start, the contract would be fully public

:13:29.:13:33.

so we could see what the terms were, and it would be fully accountable

:13:34.:13:37.

to the public as well. Would a nationalised

:13:38.:13:40.

rail system necessarily Governments are always

:13:41.:13:42.

struggling to contain the cost They are always under pressure

:13:43.:13:49.

to spend more on education. And the experience of British Rail

:13:50.:13:55.

suggests that in that context, it is very hard to politically make

:13:56.:13:57.

the case for spending Britain certainly botched

:13:58.:14:01.

the franchising of its rail services, and we have all paid

:14:02.:14:09.

the price, but renationalisation Shortly before coming on air, I

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spoke to Andy Mangan on from Labour. He is the Shadow Transport

:14:36.:14:39.

Secretary, and asked how his party would cut 10% from rail fares. It

:14:40.:14:45.

would come from the savings that are to be achieved by getting out of

:14:46.:14:48.

this treble franchising system that leaks so much money out of the

:14:49.:14:53.

system. If we can end that, we have a fund available to deliver those

:14:54.:14:57.

sorts of cuts. It is something in the order of ?1.2 billion going out

:14:58.:15:02.

of the system on an annual basis. You say that, but I am looking at

:15:03.:15:07.

the profits made by those companies. It is not a particularly profitable

:15:08.:15:17.

business. Total profit of ?220 million in 2014-15. Passenger

:15:18.:15:19.

revenue is getting on for ?9 billion. One is diddly squat, one is

:15:20.:15:25.

a large number. If those operating costs were removed by having so many

:15:26.:15:31.

operators in the system, we have ridiculous multiplicity of providers

:15:32.:15:35.

in our country. There are so many players in the railway system that

:15:36.:15:41.

costs escalate. You're going to have a Western Railway, an East Coast, a

:15:42.:15:47.

Southern, they will still be there. That's right, but at the moment we

:15:48.:15:52.

have a subsidy system going straight into these companies, often to

:15:53.:15:59.

Germany, to France, all across the European Union. We are subsidising

:16:00.:16:03.

some of them, but we make money from some of them. The profits which leak

:16:04.:16:09.

out are approximately 2.5% of passenger revenues. You cannot cut

:16:10.:16:18.

rail fares by 10%. You still have 7.5% to find. Research that the TUC

:16:19.:16:25.

have conducted shows that millions can be taken out of the system on an

:16:26.:16:30.

annual basis by changing to directly operated railways. Look at what

:16:31.:16:35.

happened with East Coast, ?1 billion was returned to the Treasury over

:16:36.:16:42.

the duration of that franchise. The TUC report makes estimates of these

:16:43.:16:46.

interface cost, one company having to deal with another and work out

:16:47.:16:51.

whose fault it was that the train was rape. The McNulty report said

:16:52.:16:56.

that much more can be gained by improving the performance of the

:16:57.:16:59.

current system rather than embarking on a costly programme of

:17:00.:17:02.

renationalisation of which is unlikely to lead to an overall

:17:03.:17:07.

reduction in costs. So, McNulty doesn't think that there is a big

:17:08.:17:12.

cost saving to be found. But it isn't an expensive process if you

:17:13.:17:17.

are just allowing franchises to get to them natural termination point

:17:18.:17:20.

and not be renewed. There are no acquisition costs involved in the

:17:21.:17:23.

process if they follow one after the other. We would be saving ourselves

:17:24.:17:28.

fortunate over the term. What might you would agree that this comprises

:17:29.:17:33.

a top-down reorganisation of the railways, wouldn't you? You want to

:17:34.:17:39.

describe it that way. Because you have franchises regularly coming up

:17:40.:17:45.

renewal, it is gradual. It is a top-down reorganisation. Why can't

:17:46.:17:50.

we have the confidence to do what has been done in Germany and France,

:17:51.:17:57.

and in Holland? They are content to have their infrastructure and their

:17:58.:18:03.

operators being under state control. They are extracting value in this

:18:04.:18:06.

country and taking it back over there. They are taking out a tiny

:18:07.:18:12.

proportion, 2.5%. But that is a lot of money. The 10% cut in rail fares

:18:13.:18:19.

is reliant on making hundreds of millions of pounds of savings which

:18:20.:18:23.

the guy who's estimate of the savings you are quoting does not

:18:24.:18:28.

believe our there to be made. You have different commentators coming

:18:29.:18:34.

up with different figures. You quoted the TUC, who are quoting

:18:35.:18:40.

McNulty, and McNulty says you cannot make those savings. I respectfully

:18:41.:18:46.

disagree. There are people like Southern who are getting millions of

:18:47.:18:50.

pounds by way of salaries and bonuses for running the most

:18:51.:18:55.

appalling service. We hand over ?1.1 billion to that company and it

:18:56.:18:58.

doesn't matter what happens in terms of the service they provide, they

:18:59.:19:04.

get paid, come rain or shine. It is unacceptable. In that respect, you

:19:05.:19:09.

make an interesting point, because is the truth about not that this

:19:10.:19:14.

railway system in our country is government-controlled already?

:19:15.:19:17.

Network Rail is part of the public sector. Southern, the Government

:19:18.:19:21.

gets all of the revenue from the passengers in the case of that

:19:22.:19:25.

franchise. It instructs Southern on how to manage the service. It has

:19:26.:19:32.

told Southern to stick to its rules on driverless trains. It is a public

:19:33.:19:40.

ownership of the railway. Not at all. They are given that money

:19:41.:19:43.

whether they perform well or indifferently. As we have just seen,

:19:44.:19:49.

they have taken 341 trains off per day. At the Government's decision.

:19:50.:19:54.

That is a Government decision, not a Southern one. They should be told to

:19:55.:20:04.

get things back in order, then. It is a distraction, the discussion

:20:05.:20:09.

about driverless trains. You want the Government have more say in the

:20:10.:20:13.

well but clearly not the Conservative Government because you

:20:14.:20:16.

say they do not run Southern very well. If your team runs the

:20:17.:20:20.

railways, will you run it better than you run the Labour Party? It is

:20:21.:20:28.

about having the freedom to do what was done by directly operated

:20:29.:20:33.

railways between 2009 and 2014, and look at the success they made of the

:20:34.:20:39.

East Coast service. The highest rate of customer satisfaction, good

:20:40.:20:42.

industrial relations, a very successful service, so it is freeing

:20:43.:20:46.

us up from this rigour of trying to produce dividends and profits to

:20:47.:20:51.

third parties and foreign state-owned companies. Some will say

:20:52.:20:55.

this is ideological. Do you believe that BT should be brought into

:20:56.:20:59.

public ownership as well? That is not my view. Do you think it was

:21:00.:21:04.

right to privatise it? In the fullness of time, I think all of

:21:05.:21:08.

these services can be looked at. Why are we looking at six companies

:21:09.:21:12.

providing energy when what people want is reliable energy as cheap as

:21:13.:21:17.

possible? They don't want to be in competition and trying to switch

:21:18.:21:20.

providers. They simply want to have a good service, reliable and

:21:21.:21:25.

affordable. At the moment, those things don't exist. We have been a

:21:26.:21:30.

big can of worms there. Andy McDonald, thank you very much.

:21:31.:21:32.

On this programme, we first posed the question, what does

:21:33.:21:35.

Brexit actually mean, back on October 28th last year.

:21:36.:21:37.

We didn't manage to get an answer then, and even though a lot of water

:21:38.:21:41.

has passed under the bridge since, it's fair to say we still don't

:21:42.:21:44.

Last year, we took a first look at some of the popular options:

:21:45.:21:49.

Norway and Switzerland for example, and these were much discussed

:21:50.:21:52.

But we missed one then, and it hasn't had much pick up

:21:53.:21:58.

OK, so it is not a very big country, but like Norway, it's

:21:59.:22:07.

in the European Economic Area - unlike Norway, it has restrictions

:22:08.:22:09.

Helen Thomas is in the principality to see if its status could possibly

:22:10.:22:14.

This is Liechtenstein's idea of how to celebrate a national holiday.

:22:15.:22:24.

A garden party, the Royal Family on display, a rather familiar tune.

:22:25.:22:33.

And of course, a hefty dose of national pride.

:22:34.:22:47.

Liechtenstein clearly has a lot to recommend it.

:22:48.:22:49.

Glorious weather, beautiful scenery, and quite a catchy national anthem.

:22:50.:22:51.

But from the UK's point of view, the country also has

:22:52.:22:54.

Liechtenstein, like Norway, is part of the single market

:22:55.:22:58.

through its membership of the European Economic Area.

:22:59.:23:02.

But the country also has a tightly controlled quota

:23:03.:23:04.

Now, that is a combination that some in Europe claim is impossible,

:23:05.:23:13.

that the four freedoms of people, goods, capital and services

:23:14.:23:17.

An example to point to as the UK starts the long and complicated

:23:18.:23:27.

process of extricating itself from the EU?

:23:28.:23:33.

There's an important thing I think is, it's not specifically

:23:34.:23:35.

What they're doing is adopting what are known technically

:23:36.:23:40.

as safeguard measures which then brought them a treaty change.

:23:41.:23:43.

But it doesn't just apply to Liechtenstein.

:23:44.:23:45.

This is not specifically a Liechtenstein solution.

:23:46.:23:50.

And when the EEA was first set up there were actually four countries

:23:51.:23:54.

which took advantage of these provisions.

:23:55.:24:04.

There are some subtle differences between Liechtenstein and the UK.

:24:05.:24:07.

The UK's population is about 1750 times larger.

:24:08.:24:09.

And Liechtenstein is about half the size of the Isle of Wight.

:24:10.:24:18.

So you see, it's really a small country, and for that,

:24:19.:24:27.

Without control, we have a lot of people, a lot of aliens

:24:28.:24:32.

in Liechtenstein and that would be a big problem for Liechtenstein.

:24:33.:24:36.

So it's not clear that the UK will get an invitation

:24:37.:24:38.

It's starting from a different position and that's one reason

:24:39.:24:46.

to question whether the model would work for the UK.

:24:47.:24:49.

It doesn't set a legal precedent given that the provisions under

:24:50.:24:52.

which Liechtenstein has been able to negotiate their situation is one

:24:53.:24:55.

under the EEA agreement of which the UK is not yet a member.

:24:56.:25:01.

The Prime Minister doesn't think the same deal will be on offer.

:25:02.:25:04.

Yeah, I think nowadays it would be almost impossible for Liechtenstein

:25:05.:25:06.

But I think when we would today negotiate such a solution,

:25:07.:25:18.

And you see the discussions in Switzerland, also in the UK,

:25:19.:25:24.

free movement is one of the pillars of the EU.

:25:25.:25:30.

And it's quite difficult to get that special situation.

:25:31.:25:35.

The mechanics of how the UK could replicate Liechtenstein's

:25:36.:25:39.

We would need to join both the European Free Trade

:25:40.:25:44.

Other members could block that happening.

:25:45.:25:49.

But some in Liechtenstein think the UK has scope to negotiate.

:25:50.:26:01.

of the EEA or yet another concept, is open.

:26:02.:26:07.

And I would think that with this Brexit and the pressure from other

:26:08.:26:11.

EU countries, that this immigration issue has to be changed.

:26:12.:26:13.

And it can only be solved with changes.

:26:14.:26:15.

With that, I think that plays into the hands of Britain.

:26:16.:26:21.

Embracing Liechtenstein's model wholesale may prove complicated.

:26:22.:26:28.

But its unique situation could prove an illuminating example.

:26:29.:26:33.

The UK will be looking for any chance to ensure negotiations

:26:34.:26:36.

While some of you have been contemplating what the offspring of

:26:37.:26:58.

Laura Trott and Jason Kenny could achieve in future Olympics, we have

:26:59.:27:04.

been looking at matters closer to home.

:27:05.:27:05.

I say sofa, it's more like a patchwork quilt of

:27:06.:27:09.

I'm so glad the Olympics is only once every four

:27:10.:27:35.

I've been watching you night after night,

:27:36.:27:42.

and you're starting to look a little bit pasty.

:27:43.:27:44.

Because you're not eating the right things.

:27:45.:27:46.

A little coconut milk going in there.

:27:47.:28:10.

If you can't get yak, go straight to coconut.

:28:11.:28:12.

It's so much better when you've cooked it yourself.

:28:13.:28:28.

In the old days, she'd have missed the tape.

:28:29.:28:45.

Because his upper body is somewhere across the line.

:28:46.:28:51.

Should this be track, or should this be in

:28:52.:28:53.

There's a lot of diving going on here, isn't

:28:54.:28:57.

He looks like he's just fallen out of a

:28:58.:29:07.

Is this speeded up, or is this normal?

:29:08.:29:19.

People say, oh you can get up and watch it in the morning.

:29:20.:29:26.

If it was me, I'd have the old waistband up here.

:29:27.:29:48.

Well, partly that, but you're not allowed to

:29:49.:29:53.

Would you like your kids to box, though?

:29:54.:29:59.

Mind you, you might have to spar with them.

:30:00.:30:07.

Have you had any problems with the hips?

:30:08.:30:19.

Well that's great, come on, I'll show you this wonderful...

:30:20.:30:25.

You've been watching Stephen Smith's Throne of Games.

:30:26.:30:33.

And you wonder why Julian Fellowes has taken

:30:34.:30:35.

Don't worry, there will be another programme later today! Good morning!

:30:36.:30:43.

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