18/08/2016 Newsnight


18/08/2016

Could one iconic image of an injured Syrian boy help prevent further needless deaths? Plus the Garden Bridge row, Rod Liddle on Labour and Steve Smith's Olympics.


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Tens of thousands of children have died horrific deaths

:00:15.:00:16.

Can this desolate image of Omran Daqneesh, who miraculously

:00:17.:00:22.

survived an air strike, help prevent further

:00:23.:00:24.

I'll be asking our own Lyse Doucet, the International Rescue Committee,

:00:25.:00:30.

and a war photographer in the Middle East.

:00:31.:00:34.

Vote Labour to stay in the European Union and to have

:00:35.:00:37.

The columnist, Rod Liddle, on why Labour holds no appeal

:00:38.:00:44.

And who better to ask whether these have been a vintage

:00:45.:00:49.

Oh, my God, we had the St John Ambulance

:00:50.:01:03.

You might not know his name, but you will most likely know

:01:04.:01:18.

what five-year-old Omran Daqneesh looks like - the traumatised,

:01:19.:01:20.

bloodied and almost resigned looking little boy in the ambulance

:01:21.:01:23.

after an air strike on a rebel-held neighbourhood

:01:24.:01:25.

He stares at the camera as if to say - this is what is happening

:01:26.:01:30.

to thousands of children because adults are making

:01:31.:01:32.

The image has been viewed by millions,

:01:33.:01:35.

but will it have any impact on the conflict in Syria?

:01:36.:01:37.

Here's Secunder Kermani and his piece features

:01:38.:01:39.

On average, one Syrian child has died every two hours for the past

:01:40.:01:58.

five years. Most will never make the front pages of newspapers. But even

:01:59.:02:05.

amongst the international weariness that is greeting the Syrian

:02:06.:02:09.

conflict, these images from Aleppo still have the capacity to shock.

:02:10.:02:17.

Five-year-old, Omran Daqneesh, is filmed by activists as he's rescued

:02:18.:02:21.

from the rubble after an air strike on a rebel-held part of the city.

:02:22.:02:24.

He is placed alone in the back of the ambulance. Despite the

:02:25.:02:28.

devastation he's witnessed, he doesn't shout and scream, but

:02:29.:02:32.

silently wipes his eyes. It's an awful image and it's gone around the

:02:33.:02:34.

world, but it's far from unusual. Omran is very lucky because

:02:35.:02:40.

the camera took the picture of him, but most of the kids

:02:41.:02:43.

they were killed without any trace. They just pass away

:02:44.:02:46.

and no-one knows them. Omran is very lucky because

:02:47.:02:48.

the camera took the picture of him, Every day, when we go

:02:49.:02:54.

to the locations, when we go to the bombing, most of the victims

:02:55.:02:57.

are kids, are babies, The sign this boy is holding up

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alongside a picture says, "save me" Activists have been trying to draw

:03:08.:03:11.

the attention to the children's plight in Syria they have tried to

:03:12.:03:17.

capitalise on the game pokeman Go. 400,000 people have been killed in

:03:18.:03:21.

the conflict, it's believed. Some reports estimate that includes

:03:22.:03:25.

20,000 children. The vast majority have been killed by the Assad

:03:26.:03:28.

regime. Through its use of air strikes.

:03:29.:04:08.

A meeting was cut short in frustration of the failure to allow

:04:09.:04:13.

aid into the besieged areas. No humanitarian aid is reaching

:04:14.:04:21.

anywhere in Syria. The Russians will allow a 4 #-hours truce next week.

:04:22.:04:26.

Who would account against more terrible images appearing on you are

:04:27.:04:30.

our scenes. The picture is being compared to the boy drowned in the

:04:31.:04:33.

Mediterranean fleeing Syria. How much of a turning point in the

:04:34.:04:37.

refugee crisis was that in the end? Here's one of the images being

:04:38.:04:41.

shared online of the two of them together.

:04:42.:04:55.

Omran Daqneesh is out of hospital now.

:04:56.:04:59.

We're joined by Muhammed Muheisen, Associated Press Chief Photographer

:05:00.:05:01.

for the Middle East and by Sanj Srikanthan,

:05:02.:05:03.

the Director of Humanitarian Policy for the International Rescue

:05:04.:05:05.

First, our chief international correspondent, Lyse Ducet.

:05:06.:05:07.

This comes at a critical moment for Syria. What do you think? There is

:05:08.:05:11.

only months left before Secretary of State John Kerry has to say - I did

:05:12.:05:15.

my best, but I didn't succeed. He is giving it another push. It has been

:05:16.:05:19.

months now that he has been talking, often alone, with Russia's Sergei

:05:20.:05:24.

Lavrov to try to get some kind of a hes cessation of hostilties, a

:05:25.:05:28.

truce, as they call it, to allow them to return to talks. The road to

:05:29.:05:32.

any peace, if it's possible at all in Syria, goes through Moscow and

:05:33.:05:37.

Washington. Will this image in its own way put pressure on Putin and

:05:38.:05:44.

Obama? Everyone is mentioning it. John Kirby mentioned it at the state

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department. Everyone is talking about it. What Syria needs now is

:05:47.:05:52.

action. There is such a knot now, there is not a conflict in the world

:05:53.:05:57.

now. He talk about it as being the worst conflict he has intervened in.

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He intervened in a lot. You have Russia, the United States, you have

:06:02.:06:06.

Iran all of the Gulf States. Kurds. The Syrians and the so-called

:06:07.:06:09.

Islamic State and the groups linked to Al-Qaeda. If it's almost

:06:10.:06:14.

intractable, Obama's got four months? John Kerry still says he

:06:15.:06:19.

thinks there is a way out. He's known to be an optimist. The

:06:20.:06:22.

Russians want to find a way out. To use the phrase - they don't want it

:06:23.:06:26.

to become another Afghanistan. Aleppo is the prize in a very big

:06:27.:06:29.

contest for a struggle for control in the Middle East. It's - for Syria

:06:30.:06:39.

it's a devastating war, a proxy war, Caesarean war and a new cold war.

:06:40.:06:43.

You have to stop all of them if you are going to stop it. Muhammed, as a

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photographer, tell me what your reaction was to that image.

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Presumably through your lens you see images like that practically every

:06:55.:07:00.

day in Syria? It's a very sad. It's a haunting image. It's a single

:07:01.:07:06.

image that tells the story of a five-year-old in a growing conflict.

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That the power of photography or the power of this image. That this image

:07:11.:07:14.

is trending right now. It's reaching the heart of the public and that's

:07:15.:07:21.

the biggest recognition of a picture when it reaches the public and

:07:22.:07:25.

people start to feel con nexted. If I'm a father and I have a child, I

:07:26.:07:31.

would look at my child and say - I'm lucky we have a roof. As a

:07:32.:07:34.

photographer, when you both see, when you take and see, as was in our

:07:35.:07:40.

reporter's package there, images of many dead children in Syria, why is

:07:41.:07:45.

this image of a survivor, in a way, been the one that has arrested

:07:46.:07:52.

people's attention? This image shows a hopeless child, left alone in the

:07:53.:07:55.

back of an ambulance in a way it tells - it talks about the whole

:07:56.:07:59.

story. How the situation is hopeless. That the child was left

:08:00.:08:06.

alone, waiting for help. It's a child. Children are the real victim

:08:07.:08:12.

of this conflict. It's not just a picture, I think it's the whole

:08:13.:08:17.

story by itself. I want to put that to you, first of all, now, Sanj

:08:18.:08:23.

Srikanthan. Is the whole story because the children have no futures

:08:24.:08:27.

if it's not resolved? That's right. They haven't had a future for five

:08:28.:08:31.

years. They've lived through war. Over a million were born and have

:08:32.:08:35.

liveded and only known conflict. So what was sad about that photo and

:08:36.:08:39.

the video was that that child is beyond terror. He's in a place that

:08:40.:08:43.

no child should be. He's been schooled in trying to avoid air

:08:44.:08:46.

strikes and doing all those kind of things. We look at that image, we

:08:47.:08:50.

wonder if it will make any difference. Do you think it will? We

:08:51.:08:57.

know the image of the boy in the Mediterranean arrested the world's

:08:58.:09:02.

attention. Only for a time. There is a window an opportunity to get a

:09:03.:09:05.

ceasefire into places like Aleppo that haven't received aid since

:09:06.:09:09.

early July. If that image can achieve that. That's not the

:09:10.:09:12.

solution we are looking for, which is a permanent peace, it's

:09:13.:09:15.

something. When we have... The fact is that little boy is sitting there.

:09:16.:09:21.

We know people on both side of the divide are willing to put children

:09:22.:09:25.

on the front-line anyway there is a cynicism, isn't there? Aid workers

:09:26.:09:30.

are the most cynical of trying to do their best in these times, is that

:09:31.:09:34.

both sides are more interested in winning the conflict than saving

:09:35.:09:36.

children's lives. That's the sad true. Muhammed, are you very.

:09:37.:09:42.

Aware when you're taking a photograph of the photograph that

:09:43.:09:50.

might be counter into youively that might make a difference It depends.

:09:51.:09:57.

What I believe... The importance of photography, the importance of being

:09:58.:10:02.

there, that sometimes there are many events happen that wasn't captured

:10:03.:10:06.

or documented, so it feels like it never happened. Luckily, this

:10:07.:10:09.

picture was captured and went out there. This is also the importance

:10:10.:10:18.

of journalism, photojournalism. If we have access to document things we

:10:19.:10:22.

will see a lot of that. I believe there are dozens of images

:10:23.:10:25.

happening, and no-one captured it. So it never made it out there. Do

:10:26.:10:30.

you believe your work can make a difference Of course. Of course. I

:10:31.:10:36.

think, simply, when the pictures start... Goes out there, people

:10:37.:10:40.

start talking about it. It already created a change. It reached

:10:41.:10:44.

people's hearts and minds. Changed people's way of looking and thinking

:10:45.:10:48.

of things. Instead of thinking of Syria, now there is a name, there is

:10:49.:10:56.

a killed call Omran. It makes people think. Instead of not what is

:10:57.:11:01.

happening in Syria because it doesn't involve them right now.

:11:02.:11:04.

People are aware there is a conflict going on. It's a reminder. It's a

:11:05.:11:09.

reminder. Thank you very much. There will be a temptation, wouldn't

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there, for aid agencies and so forth and different rescue missions to use

:11:14.:11:17.

an image like this? I don't think we use the image, it's happening every

:11:18.:11:20.

day. In fact, the photographer who took it said - I was surprised

:11:21.:11:23.

because I take photos like this every day. It's the reality. I think

:11:24.:11:27.

if people who watch the image and see the story behind it realise the

:11:28.:11:33.

sacrifices, not just families are making, but the 35 remaining doctors

:11:34.:11:36.

in Aleppo are making I think that's something worthy. We forget the

:11:37.:11:40.

doctors are few and far between now. We should say that five children did

:11:41.:11:45.

die today. Perhaps we shoulded have their image up as well? Images like

:11:46.:11:50.

this they strike a chord with the public. It gives ammunition to the

:11:51.:11:54.

would be peacemakers. Whether it's enough for the real ammunition on

:11:55.:11:58.

the ground which grows more violent by the day is the question now.

:11:59.:12:00.

Thank you all very. Indeed.

:12:01.:12:08.

On Newsnight last night, we revealed that the gap in funding

:12:09.:12:11.

for the Garden Bridge was far bigger than the Trust had previously

:12:12.:12:14.

admitted - some ?56 million, rather than ?32 million.

:12:15.:12:16.

The Chairman of the Trustees, Lord Mervyn Davies, told Evan

:12:17.:12:18.

that the project had become more expensive and also that the bridge

:12:19.:12:21.

would not be open in 2018, but rather 2019.

:12:22.:12:24.

But straight away this morning, the Trust issued a statement

:12:25.:12:26.

The statement was one thing, straight after the programme, the

:12:27.:12:37.

second was the language of the statement? Absolutely. It used

:12:38.:12:42.

phrases like, "this is a crucial time" it was pleading with the

:12:43.:12:46.

Government not to withdraw its support - It "would be a tragedy"?

:12:47.:12:52.

Exactly. A tragedy perhaps for the taxpayer who has already spent ?36

:12:53.:12:57.

million, that is never coming back. Infect, what the Trust was saying

:12:58.:13:02.

was that, if the Government doesn't agree to extend an existing

:13:03.:13:06.

arrangement where it's underwriting the project, then it's doomed. There

:13:07.:13:11.

was a real sense of worry, of nervousness. On the part of the

:13:12.:13:17.

Trust. Hands up the back? There is a lot of money to raise there. Are

:13:18.:13:21.

other existing hurdles. Also, viewers might remember that last

:13:22.:13:27.

months Newsnight explained that the mood in Government towards this

:13:28.:13:32.

project is cooler than it has been. The London Mayor has voiced

:13:33.:13:35.

concerns? The London Mayor and George Osborne, one of its greatest

:13:36.:13:40.

fans have gone. Whitehall sources told us today that they reject the

:13:41.:13:43.

idea that the fate of the bridge is in their hands. They say that's not

:13:44.:13:47.

fair. In fact, it's the Trust who have to get a hold of this project.

:13:48.:13:51.

It's for them to say if they can make it work and for them to

:13:52.:13:54.

ultimately pull the plug if they can't. It's seems an unhappy

:13:55.:13:59.

partnership at the moment. Are the Trust looking for more money from

:14:00.:14:02.

the Government? That's an interesting question. We we don't

:14:03.:14:07.

quite know. One of the things about this project is, it's so secretive,

:14:08.:14:11.

maybe too strong a word. There is so little information out there.

:14:12.:14:15.

Opaque? Opaque. Little information in the public domain. The Trust have

:14:16.:14:19.

been quite clear about what they're asking. This is how they described

:14:20.:14:23.

the current situation: But our understanding is that the

:14:24.:14:53.

government is less clear about that. They are concerned that if they

:14:54.:14:56.

agreed to extend the underwriting for another year, they could be

:14:57.:15:02.

liable for more money. We are told categorically there is no more. They

:15:03.:15:06.

have pledged ?30 million and that is it. They said they are not in the

:15:07.:15:11.

business of backing white elephants. The future of the bridge is still

:15:12.:15:13.

uncertain. Thank you for joining us. When the Labour Party meets

:15:14.:15:15.

for its annual conference in Liverpool next month,

:15:16.:15:18.

there will be a "me and my political shadow" moment -

:15:19.:15:20.

well, the whole four days actually. Momentum will be in town and both

:15:21.:15:23.

Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell will be preparing two speeches each

:15:24.:15:27.

- one for the Labour conference delegates,

:15:28.:15:30.

the other for Momentum's membership. For the writer and sometimes

:15:31.:15:34.

splenetic columnist, Rod Liddle, this might be the moment that

:15:35.:15:39.

sends him over the edge, as he ponders on why Labour's

:15:40.:15:43.

lost its way and its working-class He begins his report

:15:44.:15:46.

for Newsnight in Middlesborough, This is Teesside,

:15:47.:15:49.

about as resolutely, uncompromisingly Labour

:15:50.:15:57.

as anywhere in the country. And yet like almost all

:15:58.:16:02.

working-class areas beyond London, Teesside is rapidly

:16:03.:16:05.

becoming disenchanted with the party Brexit was a real

:16:06.:16:08.

glorious revolution, a sort of cri de coeur

:16:09.:16:16.

on the part of people who felt

:16:17.:16:18.

marginalised, unlistened to and increasingly averse from the liberal

:16:19.:16:25.

politics of both the Establishment, and crucially, for this

:16:26.:16:27.

issue, the Labour Party. Because while this

:16:28.:16:29.

is Brexit heartland -

:16:30.:16:30.

70% voted to Leave in Hartlepool over the water,

:16:31.:16:32.

66% back there in Middlesbrough -

:16:33.:16:34.

it is not just about that. It's also about having

:16:35.:16:38.

respect for the family, for the country, a sense of

:16:39.:16:44.

patriotism and belief in Britain. It's about doing a fair day's work

:16:45.:16:48.

for a fair day's pay and also not being paid welfare -

:16:49.:16:52.

if you don't give, you don't get. The current Labour Party is largely

:16:53.:16:58.

immune to the aspirations of ordinary

:16:59.:17:00.

working-class voters, when it is not I thought I'd present

:17:01.:17:03.

a cheerful parody of Labour's current mindset

:17:04.:17:08.

to the people of my hometown. In exactly the spot,

:17:09.:17:12.

as it happens, where I once sold The Socialist Worker

:17:13.:17:15.

as an imbecilic youth. Vote Labour to stay

:17:16.:17:18.

in the European Union and to Bring the experience

:17:19.:17:22.

of Islington to Middlesbrough. Vote Labour for Fairtrade coffee,

:17:23.:17:28.

muesli, solidarity with Cuba, peace, love,

:17:29.:17:31.

happiness everywhere Are you a Labour voter?

:17:32.:17:35.

No. Have you always voted Labour?

:17:36.:17:40.

Always. And do you like Labour now

:17:41.:17:45.

under Jeremy Corbyn? To tell you the truth,

:17:46.:17:47.

I don't like any of them. Do you think they are out of touch

:17:48.:17:49.

with the Do you think we need more

:17:50.:17:52.

immigration in this country? You're having a laugh, aren't you?

:17:53.:17:56.

More? Sir, what we want in this country

:17:57.:18:01.

is more immigration, correct? The power in the Labour

:18:02.:18:03.

Party has not resided These days, it lives

:18:04.:18:12.

somewhere else entirely. This is Islington, of course,

:18:13.:18:17.

and this is my granola, pistachio and blueberry

:18:18.:18:23.

porridge with Greek yoghurt. This is Jeremy Corbyn's neck

:18:24.:18:29.

of the woods, of course. At one point under Jeremy,

:18:30.:18:31.

there were three members of his Shadow Cabinet from Islington

:18:32.:18:35.

itself, more than in the entire I don't know if that

:18:36.:18:37.

is still true today because I don't know who's

:18:38.:18:41.

in the Shadow Cabinet. One minute they're there,

:18:42.:18:44.

the next minute they're sobbing their hearts out

:18:45.:18:46.

on The World At One. The place has become a sort

:18:47.:18:51.

of byword, a cliche, which somehow represents

:18:52.:18:53.

the distance between Labour I'm here to meet someone who might

:18:54.:18:55.

offer the party a little hope. Lord Glassman, architect

:18:56.:19:01.

of New Labour, and adviser Why is Labour in the trouble

:19:02.:19:03.

it's in, do you think? Well, it's just lost its

:19:04.:19:09.

relationship with the working class, and with working-class leadership,

:19:10.:19:13.

with working-class values and And that's what we are seeing

:19:14.:19:16.

is supposed to be Labour. How it happened has been

:19:17.:19:23.

a long time coming. It was always a coalition

:19:24.:19:26.

between the progressive middle-class, reforming,

:19:27.:19:29.

Fabian and more conservative socially and more economically

:19:30.:19:32.

radical working-class. But over the years,

:19:33.:19:36.

the sort of university Social democrats across Europe

:19:37.:19:37.

are facing a really difficult strategic dilemma because on the one

:19:38.:19:42.

hand, they have half of their electorate or so that is comprised

:19:43.:19:47.

of traditional, blue-collar workers. On the other hand, they've got

:19:48.:19:50.

urban, middle-class, cosmopolitan, And those two groups think

:19:51.:19:54.

fundamentally differently about the key issues of the day,

:19:55.:19:59.

in particular immigration It's sort of Labour's

:20:00.:20:02.

Clause Four for today. The activists and many of the MPs

:20:03.:20:15.

won't go near it because of course, that massed ovine middle-class bleat

:20:16.:20:19.

of "racist" as soon as you raise the issue of immigration will be

:20:20.:20:22.

forthcoming from them. And yet, there's no antipathy

:20:23.:20:26.

in these places in the north The antipathy is towards the people

:20:27.:20:29.

who allowed uncontrolled immigration to change the culture of their towns

:20:30.:20:33.

and also to undercut their wages. And yet, the problems

:20:34.:20:41.

in the party seem intractable. A leader without the

:20:42.:20:45.

support of his MPs. MPs without the support

:20:46.:20:47.

of the activists. And the activists miles out

:20:48.:20:50.

of step with the voters. He was a Labour Party member until

:20:51.:21:05.

he was suspended earlier this year pending investigation. Barbara Ntumy

:21:06.:21:10.

from Momentum joined us as well. What do you make of Rod Liddle's

:21:11.:21:17.

analysis? I think it is stuck in a narrative that he's trying to

:21:18.:21:21.

create. I grew up in Barnsley, a working-class town and in the same

:21:22.:21:24.

way as you have Islington, which is consistently rated one of the

:21:25.:21:28.

poorest and most deprived areas in the country, in Barnsley, you have a

:21:29.:21:31.

place where more affluent and well off the bowling as opposed to the

:21:32.:21:35.

General working-class. The idea that just because people live in North

:21:36.:21:38.

London and in Jeremy's constituency, they don't understand what ordinary

:21:39.:21:43.

working class people go through is just nonsense. But Owen Jones, a

:21:44.:21:46.

supporter of Jeremy Corbyn said what he said was the party has got to

:21:47.:21:50.

deal with anxieties over immigration. Do you accept there are

:21:51.:21:55.

anxieties? Since 1940, every party in this country has sought to

:21:56.:21:59.

restrict immigration at the expense of immigrants. Immigrants you don't

:22:00.:22:04.

make laws on and enforce them cannot be blamed for low wages. The

:22:05.:22:09.

government has to enforce the wage and the law. I don't understand

:22:10.:22:13.

where this narrative... Actually, I do understand where this narrative

:22:14.:22:16.

comes from, with constructed narrative and found someone else to

:22:17.:22:19.

blame for the back employers are not willing to pay what wages are. But

:22:20.:22:24.

you accept that what we might call some traditional Labour supporters

:22:25.:22:28.

have anxieties over immigration? Their communities are being

:22:29.:22:33.

irrevocably changed. When we say traditional Labour voters, black

:22:34.:22:35.

people who have come from this country since the 1940s have been

:22:36.:22:39.

traditional Labour voters. Do their concerns when it comes to inequality

:22:40.:22:44.

and being able to access jobs not matter? Rod Liddle, the fact is

:22:45.:22:49.

whatever Brexit does, it doesn't... No one is going to be repatriated so

:22:50.:22:54.

in effect, that is not the issue. The issue is going to be jobs and

:22:55.:22:58.

wages. That is what Labour supporters are about. Lets put to

:22:59.:23:03.

rest the idea that this is a key of some kind because between 7019 80%

:23:04.:23:09.

of people in the country what immigration restricted, every

:23:10.:23:12.

opinion poll going back over the last ten years shows that.

:23:13.:23:15.

Increasingly, a greater proportion of black and ethnic minority

:23:16.:23:20.

immigrants want immigration restrained, more than 50%. The idea

:23:21.:23:24.

that this is just some old-fashioned, old hack, harking

:23:25.:23:29.

back to the old days is absurd. It is an absurdity. I find it slightly

:23:30.:23:35.

hilarious that someone who is a radical, a Labour Party radical, on

:23:36.:23:38.

the left wing of the party, should be so fervently in favour of the

:23:39.:23:43.

free movement of labour and capital. If you knew your marks, you would

:23:44.:23:47.

not be in favour of that. It is the thing which depreciates the wages of

:23:48.:23:50.

the lowest paid and it is also obviously the being who -- to the

:23:51.:23:54.

grotesque exploitation of the immigrant labour force which we see

:23:55.:23:58.

everyday in the newspapers. Rod Liddle is right, it has affected low

:23:59.:24:03.

skilled workers? That has always existed. This is not new. What we

:24:04.:24:08.

should be doing it again, in the way the European Union provides, legal

:24:09.:24:12.

routes for people to come to do low skilled wages but actually, the

:24:13.:24:16.

issue is, when you have a town like my Barnsley which gets barely any

:24:17.:24:20.

investment and creates jobs, the opportunities for people are to in

:24:21.:24:23.

the bread factory, the fashion factory or the check in factory.

:24:24.:24:26.

Those are the options. College funding has been consistently

:24:27.:24:30.

slashed. What other opportunities are there for people? You don't

:24:31.:24:33.

blame someone who's left everything in Europe to come and work in a low

:24:34.:24:37.

skilled cleaning job in a hospital. Are you saying that Labour

:24:38.:24:40.

supporters who do think immigration is an issue need to be re-educated?

:24:41.:24:45.

I'm not saying we need to be re-educated. People react to their

:24:46.:24:49.

realities but actually come immigrants aren't the problem. The

:24:50.:24:52.

fact we're not creating more opportunities for people to progress

:24:53.:24:54.

and get access to education and better is the problem. The

:24:55.:25:01.

government needs to do that. Where I think Barbara is absolutely right is

:25:02.:25:03.

about the levels of investment which this government has put into places

:25:04.:25:07.

like Barnsley and a lot of the North of England. It has been lamentable.

:25:08.:25:14.

Something needs to be done. A new Labour programme would devolve more

:25:15.:25:17.

power to the region and put far more investment into them. But I think it

:25:18.:25:20.

is cloud cuckoo land to believe that... To try to say that

:25:21.:25:24.

immigration hasn't cause these problems. I didn't say that

:25:25.:25:27.

immigration hasn't caused these problems. I said it is not the sole

:25:28.:25:30.

purpose of the narrative that you like to say that it is. What is the

:25:31.:25:35.

problem with demonising groups of people? That is what it is because

:25:36.:25:38.

when you get on TV and you say people are coming here to work three

:25:39.:25:43.

or four jobs in order to provide and their families... You misunderstand.

:25:44.:25:47.

You misunderstand and that is the problem. I can't speak and this is

:25:48.:25:52.

pointless. The point is that people should have opportunities which this

:25:53.:25:57.

government has failed to do. That is painted nonsense. I'm not demonising

:25:58.:26:00.

immigrants whatsoever and I wouldn't. I think the immigrants who

:26:01.:26:03.

come here worked very hard and I'm deeply opposed to David Cameron's

:26:04.:26:08.

plans to withdraw benefits from them, for example, like Polish

:26:09.:26:11.

immigrants, I think it's disgusting. People should be treated equally by

:26:12.:26:14.

the fact is, successive reports have shown that large-scale immigration

:26:15.:26:19.

and the larger scale, the worse it is, depresses the wages of the

:26:20.:26:22.

poorest people. People who have fought for years to have a decent

:26:23.:26:28.

stab dog living. Per the closing minutes, you characterise Momentum

:26:29.:26:31.

as being a party of the middle-class kind of liberals, the Islington set.

:26:32.:26:36.

Actually, Momentum, you have to say, is a broad swathe of support in all

:26:37.:26:41.

areas of England. Well, it's certainly got a broad suite of... It

:26:42.:26:46.

controls the Labour Party. There is no question about it, it controls

:26:47.:26:50.

the Labour Party. I would probably agree with Barbara that I don't

:26:51.:26:53.

think Jeremy Corbyn should have been challenged in the leadership

:26:54.:26:56.

election. He was democratically elected, for whatever fatuous

:26:57.:27:01.

reason, the party was opened up to hundreds of thousands... The reason

:27:02.:27:04.

why Jeremy was elected was because he does speak to those working class

:27:05.:27:07.

people in Middlesbrough because he's talking about investment. He really

:27:08.:27:13.

doesn't. There is no appetite whatsoever for Jeremy Corbyn. He

:27:14.:27:19.

talks about cradle to the grave education that people are not able

:27:20.:27:22.

to have now. Does he continually talk over other people as well?

:27:23.:27:28.

Labour is gaining more working-class voters under him. 28% in the polls.

:27:29.:27:36.

One accusation I want to put, is Rod Liddle said, Momentum controls the

:27:37.:27:41.

Labour Party. It does. Labour Party members control the Labour Party.

:27:42.:27:45.

They are the people who are active and involved. I'm a member of the

:27:46.:27:49.

Labour Party. I don't disagree, I think that is fair, I think I be mad

:27:50.:27:53.

Labour has been taken over largely by Momentum and people who support

:27:54.:27:58.

Jeremy Corbyn -- Jeremy Corbyn. I don't have an argument about that

:27:59.:28:00.

but the fact he's deeply unattractive to any bird in the

:28:01.:28:06.

north of the country... But we are allowed to organise. We are going to

:28:07.:28:09.

leave it there. Of course you are. Thank you for joining us.

:28:10.:28:12.

True story - our special Olympics feature, Throne of Games,

:28:13.:28:14.

was only meant to be a test broadcast, to put the new

:28:15.:28:17.

BBC transmitter at Theydon Bois through its paces.

:28:18.:28:19.

But then it snowballed into a phenomenon, with one leading

:28:20.:28:21.

critic describing it as "must-flee television."

:28:22.:28:23.

Tonight our man, Stephen Smith, is joined by wine queen,

:28:24.:28:29.

as he soaks up more Brazilian culture from

:28:30.:28:39.

Stephen Smith, a smudge of chalk on the leotard

:28:40.:28:43.

I've got the noted wine expert Jilly Goolden

:28:44.:28:58.

coming here in a minute and no hospitality budget.

:28:59.:29:00.

Still, although I'm not officially qualified

:29:01.:29:02.

as a sommelier, how hard can it be?

:29:03.:29:06.

I've got something for you here, Jilly.

:29:07.:29:13.

Here we are, Jilly, here's some wine I made...

:29:14.:29:15.

I'm getting base notes of licorice, jasmine

:29:16.:29:24.

My God, we had the St John's ambulance here for Angela Rippon,

:29:25.:29:38.

Brazil's got a big handicap when it comes to making wine in that most

:29:39.:29:46.

That looks like the wrap party for Food and Drink.

:29:47.:30:00.

Well, if you've got it, flaunt it, I suppose.

:30:01.:30:05.

Is it true that you were the first person to bring

:30:06.:30:25.

I decided to describe it in terms of everyday sense and flavours.

:30:26.:30:41.

So my best one was the gamay grape which makes Beaujolais,

:30:42.:30:43.

and that smells just like trainers running on hot tarmac.

:30:44.:30:46.

This is a bit more like the inside of the trainers,

:30:47.:30:49.

Trainers! Very Olympic.

:30:50.:30:52.

I'm not sure we know how to respond to this as a nation.

:30:53.:30:57.

We are used to being slightly rubbish and plucky losers.

:30:58.:31:02.

I hope we don't get too pumped up, actually.

:31:03.:31:06.

I quite like the sort of modest Brits.

:31:07.:31:08.

Fifth in the World Championship final this year.

:31:09.:31:10.

A consistent performer, reached the semifinals

:31:11.:31:12.

They must do lots of practising for falling off.

:31:13.:31:19.

Of all sports, which would you like to be the top athlete in?

:31:20.:31:28.

I can see myself in the dressage with all the gear.

:31:29.:31:31.

We'd be in it together because that would be mine.

:31:32.:31:37.

They'd have to give us some credit for that,

:31:38.:31:41.

Percent of the inside of trainers X Mac that's all we have time for

:31:42.:32:01.

tonight. Good night. -- the scent of the inside of trainers!

:32:02.:32:20.

After a wet start to the day in Northern Ireland, improving into the

:32:21.:32:22.

Could one iconic image of an injured Syrian boy help prevent further needless deaths? Plus the Garden Bridge row, Rod Liddle on Labour and Steve Smith's Olympics.


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