31/08/2016 Newsnight


31/08/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis. Are we any closer to knowing what 'Brexit' means?


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Transcript


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There are this many people in the Cabinet, and probably

:00:00.:00:08.

about this many different ideas as to what Brexit means.

:00:09.:00:11.

But is the Government at last inching towards a single view

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More single market, less immigration,

:00:15.:00:19.

It's a fight as to what the priority should be,

:00:20.:00:24.

a fight that matters to business and the City.

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We'll ask if our financial services can flourish

:00:27.:00:29.

Also tonight, a Polish man beaten to death in Essex.

:00:30.:00:37.

Could it be the latest example of hate crime post-Brexit?

:00:38.:00:40.

And what does it tell us about anti-social behaviour?

:00:41.:00:43.

To be honest, since Brexit, I think all the British people,

:00:44.:00:49.

the Brits here, they think they've got a green light here

:00:50.:00:51.

You know, they feel very, kind of, secure to be racist.

:00:52.:01:00.

Ian McEwan on his new novel, in which the narrator

:01:01.:01:04.

I like to share a glass with my mother.

:01:05.:01:11.

You may never have experienced, or you will have

:01:12.:01:15.

forgotten, a good burgundy, her favourite, or a good sancerre, also

:01:16.:01:20.

her favourite, decanted through a healthy placenta.

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This morning, the best official line we had on our future place in Europe

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was yet another reiteration of the grand tautology,

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But that was before the Cabinet met at Chequers to talk things through.

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Well, the line had barely moved on, to be honest.

:01:45.:01:49.

The official statement said, "We're looking for controls

:01:50.:01:51.

on immigration, but we also want a good deal for trade."

:01:52.:01:54.

If that seems less than clear, it's because there is a conflict

:01:55.:01:59.

between what kind of participation we have in the single market and how

:02:00.:02:02.

much control we have over our own rules and borders.

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It's the fundamental conflict, because what the single market

:02:05.:02:09.

actually aspires to be is a vast borderless zone of unified standards

:02:10.:02:11.

For platinum access to that market, you have to give up some control.

:02:12.:02:18.

So how is the debate inside the Cabinet over

:02:19.:02:22.

what we should want from the EU panning out?

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Our political editor Nick Watt is with me.

:02:25.:02:29.

I gave some semblance, some sense of the official statements. What do you

:02:30.:02:38.

know about what went on? Well, there's a growing confidence in the

:02:39.:02:42.

Cabinet, that the three Brexiteers, the ministers charged with taking

:02:43.:02:46.

the UK out of EU, will reach agreement, and agreed UK position in

:02:47.:02:49.

the coming months which will allow Theresa May, early next year, to

:02:50.:02:54.

trigger the formal process, Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty to take us

:02:55.:02:58.

out of the European Union. Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox

:02:59.:03:02.

are not exactly bosom buddies but Cabinet ministers were struck today

:03:03.:03:05.

by the way in which they were pulling in the same direction. They

:03:06.:03:09.

were clearly working together. They met last week and they are going to

:03:10.:03:13.

have regular meetings. As one senior source said to me, they may loathe

:03:14.:03:17.

each other but they sink or swim together. So they have their ducks

:03:18.:03:23.

in a row, it seems. Now the principles, what is the UK objective

:03:24.:03:28.

out of all of this? Two important points from the Downing Street

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statement you mentioned, first, they are saying there will be controls on

:03:33.:03:36.

immigration from within the European Union when we leave but they hope to

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do it in a way that will ensure we can still trade in goods and

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services. Maybe that is wishful thinking. The second big thing they

:03:46.:03:48.

are saying is that Theresa May is not looking for an off-the-shelf

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solution, the Norway option or the Turkish option, she is looking for

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what has been described as a bespoke option. This is a British deal,

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again, maybe wishful thinking but the thinking is that the UK is the

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world's fifth-largest economy and we are somewhat larger than turkey and

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Norway and perhaps that will give us some weight in the negotiations.

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That in a way expresses the objectives. Where do they think this

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is going to end up? What is the deal going to look like? That is the

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crucial question. What I was really struck by today was the feeling that

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the UK in these negotiations should perhaps not be too fussed about

:04:27.:04:30.

access to the single market. The Remain supporters say they have do

:04:31.:04:33.

have as much access to the single market as possible although that

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will be limited if there are controls on immigration.

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Essentially, what I was hearing is don't forget that the single market

:04:40.:04:44.

largely covers trade in goods, not so much on services, which makes up

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the larger part of the UK economy. What some people have been saying to

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me is that perhaps the UK could be clever in those negotiations,

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perhaps it could spring a surprise by, for example, not sounding too

:04:57.:04:59.

fussed about the single market. Remember we were talking last night

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about passport rights, the ability to trade your financial services

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around the European Union, what I'm hearing tonight on that development

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is that Philip Hammond is essentially saying, our EU partners

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will assume that will be number one on the Chancellor's list, on his

:05:16.:05:19.

shopping list in the negotiations. But what if it's not? What if he

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does not make a big buzz about it? Maybe the UK could spring a surprise

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and find a clever and imaginative way of protecting financial services

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without passporting. Thank you for joining us.

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Well, it is clear that a central issue is passporting.

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It matters to financial services more than most,

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being the right of companies based here to treat the whole of the EU

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with no new licensing or regulatory requirements.

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Is this crucial, or can we swap the passport for a driving licence?

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Or some other similar document that has more or less the same effect.

:05:52.:05:55.

With me now is Vicky Pryce, the economist and former advisor

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to the Department of Trade and Industry and, from Guernsey,

:05:59.:06:00.

Good evening. First, explain passporting, financial services, the

:06:01.:06:13.

single market, what it means to be in it as opposed to be working from

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outside it. The first thing to say is that financial services are very

:06:19.:06:22.

important for the UK economy. Yes, they may not be a perfect single

:06:23.:06:26.

market in financial services yet across the EU, but actually, it will

:06:27.:06:30.

benefit hugely from greater integration and that is taking

:06:31.:06:33.

place. If we are not part of it, we will lose out. The most important

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thing to bear in mind, too, is that when you do have this passporting

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ability, what it actually means is that any firm, any financial

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services firm that settles in the UK all starts operating in the UK can

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then sell its services all across the EU without having to ask for

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permission, pass through new regulatory tests but of course, it

:06:56.:07:00.

still has to comply with EU regulations. But it can do that

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freely from wherever it is, in other words, lots of firms that come from

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abroad, the US, for example or Switzerland, set up here and then

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can basically operate like a EU organisation. So they can use London

:07:15.:07:18.

as a base for financial services across the EU? That sounds pretty

:07:19.:07:22.

important. Is it? Yes, it is quite important and clearly we want to be

:07:23.:07:26.

able to trade in financial services with Europe. There are ways to do it

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without the passporting system. There's a thing called equivalents,

:07:31.:07:34.

which is where the EU reckons that countries are following rules which

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are pretty much the same as their own and they let them into the

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market on that basis. Places like Canada and Japan are actually

:07:41.:07:45.

trading in some financial services on that basis now. It is likely we

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will have to go down the equivalents route is politically, we are not

:07:52.:07:53.

allowed to be part of the single market with the immigration controls

:07:54.:08:01.

that seem firmly attached to it we are in a very possible financial

:08:02.:08:06.

services base which has immigration controls and essentially free trade

:08:07.:08:12.

into the EU. -- so we can be in a very strong financial services base.

:08:13.:08:15.

But the banks in London will not be happy to think they will have the

:08:16.:08:19.

same axis into Europe as the Japanese or the Americans. That is

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quite a step back from where they have been. -- same access. Not

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really. They have thrived for a long time in a highly competitive

:08:30.:08:31.

position with those countries and there's no reason they should not

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continue to do the same. I think the banks are moving to a position where

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many of them don't want the passport. They would prefer

:08:40.:08:43.

passporting because that means that London can be a bit different to the

:08:44.:08:48.

rest of Europe which would be an international advantage elsewhere

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and perhaps less attractively, would enable them to dodge the bonus cap.

:08:54.:08:58.

This is the disadvantage of the passport. It says we are British and

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single market and we have a minimum standard of regulation. If you have

:09:04.:09:06.

this kind of equivalence arrangement, you can be operating on

:09:07.:09:10.

their rules, there, but have different rules when you are

:09:11.:09:16.

operating in China. Is that good for London as a financial centre? There

:09:17.:09:21.

are different rules depending on where you operating. It's a fact in

:09:22.:09:24.

any case. The interesting thing is that if you were trying to leave the

:09:25.:09:27.

single market because we think it is actually very burdensome and has

:09:28.:09:31.

regulations we don't like, it is worth bearing in mind that the UK is

:09:32.:09:35.

considerably more tightly regulated in the financial sector than Europe.

:09:36.:09:38.

If anything, what we have been worrying about for quite some time

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is that we be forced to lower our own regulatory environment in order

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to fit in with what goes on in Europe, rather than the other way

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around. You are speaking from Guernsey, of course, which is an

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offshore centre, if you like. It is very different to London, isn't it?

:09:55.:09:59.

I wonder whether the analogy of you all right, it's OK come your

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offshore and you can trade into it, is going to work for something the

:10:03.:10:06.

size of London? It is far from a perfect analogy. We are a lot

:10:07.:10:12.

smaller but we do thrive. I don't think the banks are going to be too

:10:13.:10:17.

worried about operating on this equivalence basis. The problem with

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equivalence and similar things is that they are determined by what is

:10:24.:10:28.

a very bureaucratic, slow system in Europe. It might take three years

:10:29.:10:32.

for us to be deemed equivalent, even though today we are obviously

:10:33.:10:36.

totally equivalent. We have the same rules as the EU. It is not a perfect

:10:37.:10:41.

solution. Equivalence requires lots of political will to make it happen

:10:42.:10:45.

quickly. Do you think the Europeans will kind of want London to be a big

:10:46.:10:50.

financial player for the residual EU? Will they say they have to make

:10:51.:10:57.

it work for London because London is the finance provider? We know full

:10:58.:11:00.

well that London is indeed the European centre, if you like, for

:11:01.:11:04.

financial services and we have such a huge attraction in terms of all

:11:05.:11:07.

sorts of foreign firms coming year and providing services for the whole

:11:08.:11:10.

of the EU but we have already seen huge attempts by the French and

:11:11.:11:14.

others to try to get bits back from here by offering all sorts of

:11:15.:11:17.

incentives to firms to go and relocate in France, in Frankfurt and

:11:18.:11:22.

so on. I think that is not going to stop at all. We do need passporting,

:11:23.:11:26.

we do need to be part of the single market. The interesting thing for me

:11:27.:11:29.

is that the Treasury, if it is indeed Philip Hammond two pushes

:11:30.:11:33.

this, is the one department that has been incredibly good at negotiating

:11:34.:11:37.

deals for the UK, in the financial sector which other countries have

:11:38.:11:41.

not been able to do. I know you are quite optimistic about London but is

:11:42.:11:44.

there somewhere else in Europe that can begin to nibble away at London's

:11:45.:11:50.

leading financial services? Begin to nibble, yes but it is really task.

:11:51.:11:55.

London has an incredibly strong concentration of talent. It has a

:11:56.:11:59.

more sensible regulatory system than most of Europe operates with. It is

:12:00.:12:04.

really very popular. It's a nice place to live. It is in the right

:12:05.:12:10.

time zone. It has lots going for it and it has lived before with having

:12:11.:12:14.

to operate outside other people's regulation to make money. The City

:12:15.:12:18.

got going in a big way in the 80s because it had different regulation

:12:19.:12:22.

to the USA. Difference can be good. Vicky Price, just more generally,

:12:23.:12:30.

the relevance or the weight put on a bespoke deal for Britain, a Brexit

:12:31.:12:34.

deal for Britain, you know, clearly, Theresa May is not going to lift off

:12:35.:12:38.

the shelf Norway or Switzerland or Singapore anything. She says we will

:12:39.:12:42.

negotiate our own. Is that a good strategy for an economy the size of

:12:43.:12:47.

ours as we approach it? I think it all depends on what the European

:12:48.:12:50.

thing, whether they think they are keeping the UK as close as they

:12:51.:12:53.

possibly can is a good thing for them or not. We have already seen

:12:54.:12:56.

that confidence in Europe has declined because of the Brexit

:12:57.:13:00.

threat. In a way, yes, they do need us. On the other hand, there's quite

:13:01.:13:03.

a lot of advantage they can have by taking beans over themselves. But I

:13:04.:13:07.

think we have to bear in mind that whatever -- taking things over

:13:08.:13:11.

themselves. But we have to bear in mind that whatever arrangement we

:13:12.:13:14.

have got is going to be less good than now and for me, negotiation

:13:15.:13:17.

will be the key. We all know how difficult it will be and how few

:13:18.:13:20.

people there are who can actually do it from the UK side and really know

:13:21.:13:25.

what the issues are in every aspect of this trading arrangement that we

:13:26.:13:28.

have with them, what we do with the rest of the world. It is just not

:13:29.:13:33.

going to be an easy thing to do. Varies one very interesting factor,

:13:34.:13:36.

the politics of this has led the government to say, "We have do have

:13:37.:13:40.

control of immigration but we want as much trade as we can get", this

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is the conflict. The one thing Theresa May has not talked about so

:13:45.:13:48.

much is the EU budget. I wonder if you would approve of an idea that

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said, "You guys in Europe have a problem because quite a bit of your

:13:54.:13:56.

money is not going to be paid over to you from the UK any more but we

:13:57.:14:01.

in the UK will bribe you, pay you some budget", I know it's hard to

:14:02.:14:05.

swallow, "We will keep on paying you for access to the single market on

:14:06.:14:10.

current terms"? Would that be a good idea? It's what Norway does, they

:14:11.:14:14.

put money into remain a member without actually getting anything

:14:15.:14:17.

worthwhile back so it is just a straight gift of cash for being in

:14:18.:14:21.

the single market. On some terms, all deals are worth doing. I hope

:14:22.:14:25.

that isn't one deal we will have to do. Thank you for joining us.

:14:26.:14:28.

The town of Harlow in Essex is in something of a state of shock

:14:29.:14:32.

after a attack on two Polish residents on Saturday night

:14:33.:14:34.

Arkadiusz Jozwik died from his injuries on Monday.

:14:35.:14:39.

Five 15-year-old boys and one 16-year-old boy,

:14:40.:14:41.

all from Harlow, were arrested on suspicion of murder.

:14:42.:14:44.

There are obvious worries in the Polish community in Harlow

:14:45.:14:50.

The Polish ambassador was in the town today,

:14:51.:14:54.

along with the local MP, to offer support.

:14:55.:14:56.

Our reporter John Sweeney went to hear the local concerns.

:14:57.:15:02.

The killing of Arek Jozwik, a 40-year-old Pole in Essex,

:15:03.:15:05.

was a particular tragedy, and cause for a wider, more general

:15:06.:15:08.

unease about the politics of identity in Britain today.

:15:09.:15:14.

Saturday night, just before midnight, 15 or 20 youths are here.

:15:15.:15:17.

Arek, the Polish man, goes to that pizza

:15:18.:15:21.

And that, people say, is the trigger for what happens next.

:15:22.:15:29.

The story ends with Arek down on the ground where those flowers

:15:30.:15:32.

For Poles in Britain, there is mounting anxiety

:15:33.:15:43.

Today, a very public visit from Warsaw's man in London.

:15:44.:15:46.

It is the beginning of my mission in the United Kingdom,

:15:47.:15:49.

and I'm really shocked and deeply concerned on this tragedy.

:15:50.:15:53.

To be honest, since Brexit, I think all the British people,

:15:54.:15:59.

the Brits here, they think they've got a green light

:16:00.:16:01.

You know, they feel very, kind of, secure to be racist.

:16:02.:16:14.

To swear, to say all kind of rude comments, to be sarcastic, to send

:16:15.:16:25.

sarcastic comments every day at work. I have been there, and it

:16:26.:16:31.

isn't nice. All the British people we spoke to told us they were

:16:32.:16:35.

horrified by the killing and had no problem with the Polish community.

:16:36.:16:40.

Conrad works in the cafe directly opposite the pizza takeaway. He

:16:41.:16:44.

spoke to us first in English, then in Polish.

:16:45.:17:07.

This is not an isolated experience. What happened here isn't only a

:17:08.:17:14.

story of the ugly mood in our country post Brexit. It is also a

:17:15.:17:21.

story of anti-social behaviour, of people at night being afraid to walk

:17:22.:17:27.

down a British high street. They terrorise all the shopkeepers,

:17:28.:17:29.

terrorise people just walking through. It's awful. Awful. They go

:17:30.:17:35.

into shops and knock things off shelves and walk back out.

:17:36.:17:40.

Shopkeepers are too scared to say anything. We have no problem with

:17:41.:17:44.

any foreign people. There's a problem with police not controlling

:17:45.:17:51.

a of youths, cos they have no power to do anything. It's too late.

:17:52.:17:56.

Someone has died, all because the police cannot control the situation.

:17:57.:18:00.

Why is there a group of youths hanging around here anyway? It was

:18:01.:18:06.

not supposed to be like this. 12 years ago today, then Prime Minister

:18:07.:18:12.

Tony Blair visited Harlow to laud the local success in tackling

:18:13.:18:17.

anti-social behaviour. I believe that Harlow is a kind and tolerant

:18:18.:18:21.

place to live. I'm proud of being the MP here. The vast majority of

:18:22.:18:28.

people are tolerant. We have lower levels of anti-social behaviour than

:18:29.:18:32.

other areas of Essex and the country. However, there are problems

:18:33.:18:37.

in certain areas. We need to find out what has happened. Today is a

:18:38.:18:42.

day for the family, the Polish community and the people of Harlow,

:18:43.:18:47.

but we need to find out the lessons that can be learned from it. In

:18:48.:18:52.

Harlow tonight, people United, but for the town's Polish community, the

:18:53.:18:58.

killing of one of their own makes emotions wall. I don't know if I can

:18:59.:19:05.

mention names... Nigel Farage, thank you for that, because you are part

:19:06.:19:09.

of this death. You have blood on your hands. Thanks to you, thanks to

:19:10.:19:15.

this decision, where ever you are, it is your call. Nigel Farage has

:19:16.:19:21.

always denied this allegation. As the search for clues and answers

:19:22.:19:26.

continues, the fear is that two poisons have come together to a

:19:27.:19:28.

lethal result. We first reported on the Zika

:19:29.:19:31.

virus back in January, and sad to say, it has been

:19:32.:19:34.

continuing its spread ever since. Back in January, it was

:19:35.:19:37.

present in 20 countries Over the last eight

:19:38.:19:40.

months, the virus has Now it's 70 counties

:19:41.:19:43.

from the US to South Korea. making it the the largest

:19:44.:19:50.

cluster in Asia. Earlier I spoke to Nyka Alexander

:19:51.:20:01.

from the World Health Organisation in Geneva, and asked her if there

:20:02.:20:04.

is any country in the world that has Although the virus has been around,

:20:05.:20:07.

first detected in the 1940s, it's only been causing these

:20:08.:20:13.

outbreaks, and certainly these outbreaks in the Americas, since

:20:14.:20:17.

last year, so it's relatively new. I would almost turn your question

:20:18.:20:21.

around and say, is there any place that we would expect not to have

:20:22.:20:29.

Zika, and that would be any country that doesn't have the mosquitoes

:20:30.:20:32.

that can spread Zika. If your country is one

:20:33.:20:34.

that's the right climate for those mosquitoes,

:20:35.:20:38.

quite possibly Zika will be Right, so it's in about

:20:39.:20:40.

70 countries now. How many will it settle in,

:20:41.:20:46.

do you think? If you look at a map of the world,

:20:47.:20:50.

it's pretty much a very fat band around the middle of the equator,

:20:51.:20:57.

so the warmer climates, In the Americas, for example,

:20:58.:21:00.

it's only continental Chile and Canada that don't really seem

:21:01.:21:07.

to have that mosquito, so that gives you a sense

:21:08.:21:11.

of how much of the world Is there any progress

:21:12.:21:14.

on the vaccine? It will be a couple of years before

:21:15.:21:20.

we see a vaccine widely available, but it's certainly something

:21:21.:21:25.

that WHO is working on, the research community

:21:26.:21:28.

is working on together, Is this disease going to become

:21:29.:21:29.

embedded and, if you like, a sort of chronic feature of life

:21:30.:21:36.

of the countries that it arrives in? Or do you see it as something that

:21:37.:21:40.

arrives, like Ebola, and is then eradicated

:21:41.:21:44.

in the course of a year, and those countries can go back

:21:45.:21:47.

to normal and stop So, from the discussions that

:21:48.:21:49.

I hear my technical colleagues having, it's not something

:21:50.:21:56.

that they are focusing on yet. It's not something

:21:57.:21:59.

they are discussing yet, because we are still

:22:00.:22:01.

at the beginning times, in a way, Over time, some populations

:22:02.:22:04.

will develop immunity. Enough people will have had it,

:22:05.:22:11.

they can't catch it again, and that will reduce how many people

:22:12.:22:14.

are vulnerable to it, and therefore, how many more people

:22:15.:22:17.

are having it and spreading it. Why are we concerned about Zika

:22:18.:22:21.

in the first place? Because, as you know,

:22:22.:22:23.

it's mild in most people. In fact, most people that have Zika

:22:24.:22:26.

won't even know that they've had it, won't have any symptoms,

:22:27.:22:29.

they'll be fine. A few people will develop

:22:30.:22:31.

symptoms which themselves The concern is really for pregnant

:22:32.:22:32.

women and the developing foetus, and what can happen

:22:33.:22:38.

to the developing foetus. And microcephaly, the phenomenon

:22:39.:22:42.

of the brain damage that is done by the Zika virus in some foetuses,

:22:43.:22:46.

do we have more information now than we had at the beginning

:22:47.:22:51.

of the year about what rate, what proportion of unborn children

:22:52.:22:54.

are actually affected by it? What they can see is that there

:22:55.:23:01.

are many more cases of microcephaly in populations that have Zika

:23:02.:23:04.

than in populations who don't. One thing recent that we have

:23:05.:23:10.

learned, and I would say it's been something we have learned

:23:11.:23:13.

more about this year, that it's not just microcephaly,

:23:14.:23:16.

that children might be born who seem fine, but then, on examination,

:23:17.:23:19.

it turns out they have problems with eyesight or hearing,

:23:20.:23:22.

some joint problems, So that's where some of the research

:23:23.:23:24.

has expanded our knowledge, and it underlines yet again how

:23:25.:23:31.

important it is for pregnant women to be aware of the dangers,

:23:32.:23:34.

and to know how to protect themselves, and to be given

:23:35.:23:37.

the services and choices, so they can make decisions

:23:38.:23:40.

about what risks they are willing to take, and how to protect

:23:41.:23:42.

themselves from that risk. Nyka Alexander, thanks

:23:43.:23:50.

for bringing us up to date The writer Ian McEwan had his first

:23:51.:23:52.

work published in 1975, which, by coincidence,

:23:53.:23:58.

was the year of first referendum on membership of the EU,

:23:59.:24:00.

or Common Market as it was. Things have not gone

:24:01.:24:02.

so well for Britain's relationship with the EU,

:24:03.:24:04.

which has upset Mr McEwan, who is, it's fair to say,

:24:05.:24:07.

is a strong EU supporter. But things have gone well for him

:24:08.:24:10.

since 1975. He has written 15 or more major

:24:11.:24:13.

novels - one of them won the Man Booker, many have been

:24:14.:24:16.

were turned into films, And his latest novel

:24:17.:24:19.

is released tomorrow. It is an interesting

:24:20.:24:22.

one called Nutshell. It brings echoes of Hamlet

:24:23.:24:25.

to a murderous tale set in But the most striking feature

:24:26.:24:27.

is that the narrator is a rather erudite unborn child,

:24:28.:24:33.

a womb-bound witness to the drama. I sat down with Mr McEwan this

:24:34.:24:37.

morning to talk about So, here I am,

:24:38.:24:39.

upside-down in a woman. Waiting and wondering who I'm

:24:40.:24:52.

in and what I'm in for. My eyes close nostalgically

:24:53.:25:02.

when I remember how I once drifted in my translucent body bag,

:25:03.:25:05.

floated dreamily in the bubble of my thoughts, through my private

:25:06.:25:09.

ocean in slow motion somersaults, colliding gently

:25:10.:25:12.

against the transparent Ian McEwan, the book has this

:25:13.:25:16.

interesting conceit of the narrator The first line drifted into my head

:25:17.:25:25.

during a long, boring meeting at which I was required to wear

:25:26.:25:31.

an expression of attentive joy. I sat on it for a couple of months

:25:32.:25:34.

and then decided I knew exactly In the meantime, I'd been

:25:35.:25:41.

reading Hamlet again. And the two fused before

:25:42.:25:45.

I knew what I was doing. Having a foetus is actually very

:25:46.:25:50.

restrictive in a way. He has to listen very carefully

:25:51.:25:55.

to what is going on. But he can get into the most private

:25:56.:25:59.

situations. He hears all the pillow

:26:00.:26:01.

talk, of course. He sees his mother having an affair

:26:02.:26:03.

with his uncle from a very... I was going to say privileged,

:26:04.:26:08.

rather less privileged point of view When the book goes to the States,

:26:09.:26:11.

obviously, the issue of unborn children in America

:26:12.:26:16.

is a very hot issue, I mean, a Wall Street journalist

:26:17.:26:18.

says, "This is clearly I had to ask him to unwrap

:26:19.:26:26.

the question for me because I didn't understand

:26:27.:26:30.

what he was talking about. So we shouldn't

:26:31.:26:32.

infer anything That didn't even cross my mind

:26:33.:26:33.

when I was writing it. Anyway, he gets born,

:26:34.:26:38.

like many foetuses do. But in the States, opinions come

:26:39.:26:40.

in packages, squadrons even. Brexit, though, I know,

:26:41.:26:47.

wounded you deeply. You felt very strongly,

:26:48.:26:50.

very bad after the referendum and you have written about in many

:26:51.:26:53.

ways you hoped it was just a I still think it might not happen,

:26:54.:26:57.

or that it's impossible to happen. That the triad of Fox,

:26:58.:27:05.

Davis and Johnson will come back with a deal that is simply not

:27:06.:27:08.

acceptable to the Brexiters. We might be in something

:27:09.:27:12.

of a recession and the mood I asked to live in a

:27:13.:27:17.

parliamentary democracy. I don't want to be

:27:18.:27:22.

ruled by plebiscites. I think that running this matter

:27:23.:27:24.

on a small majority when it impacts on every corner of our constitution,

:27:25.:27:29.

not only our laws but our science and the whole sense of where,

:27:30.:27:36.

who we are in the world, And I think David Cameron will have

:27:37.:27:39.

to sit with an awkward I wonder because you can point quite

:27:40.:27:45.

a lot of fingers of blame from your point of view,

:27:46.:27:51.

I would have thought. Yeah, I suppose blame is hardly

:27:52.:27:53.

worth bothering with now. I think we made a mistake,

:27:54.:27:55.

we who sit around about these things, in not saying,

:27:56.:28:01.

"What is the status Apparently, it was advisory,

:28:02.:28:03.

unlike the AV referendum, If we'd gone into this referendum

:28:04.:28:09.

all telling each other, "This is only advisory

:28:10.:28:14.

and Parliament will take a decision", we might have been

:28:15.:28:16.

in a different place by now and Parliament would be ready

:28:17.:28:19.

to make its view known. A number of people on that side

:28:20.:28:21.

say he did not pull... I don't want to be ruled

:28:22.:28:27.

by plebiscites and I don't I just wish the Labour Party

:28:28.:28:32.

would get themselves sorted out, that the Parliamentary Labour Party

:28:33.:28:38.

would find a way of working with Corbyn or whoever

:28:39.:28:40.

is going to be in front. We urgently need another voice

:28:41.:28:44.

in Parliament and we don't have one. And now we are giving

:28:45.:28:50.

the government absolute free rein. They conduct, they are in control

:28:51.:28:54.

of the argument. Do you blame yourself

:28:55.:28:58.

and your class? Maybe it's my class,

:28:59.:29:03.

that metropolitan group, who were very easy targets

:29:04.:29:05.

for the Brexit side of the campaign? People who, if you like,

:29:06.:29:10.

seem to be rather comfortable, live rather well, and have a rather

:29:11.:29:15.

disconnected life from other If you offer a referendum,

:29:16.:29:19.

you ask for a bloody nose, If you're not doing well

:29:20.:29:27.

by the status quo, why not vote In one interview, I think

:29:28.:29:36.

you are quoted as saying, "What it is like to be a manual

:29:37.:29:43.

labourer just doesn't I wonder whether that really

:29:44.:29:45.

is the problem in this country, that we were two

:29:46.:29:51.

cultures, two societies. You don't get the other lot,

:29:52.:29:54.

they don't get you. You have to understand the context

:29:55.:29:57.

in which I say this... I was the first to go to university,

:29:58.:30:01.

the first to even stay I'm constantly being asked questions

:30:02.:30:08.

that no one asks Julian Barnes or James Fenton, why don't I have

:30:09.:30:19.

more labourers and JCB drivers Well, I could have

:30:20.:30:22.

but I don't, you know, You can only judge a novelist

:30:23.:30:25.

by what he or she does, "What are you doing out

:30:26.:30:29.

of your class? Why aren't you writing

:30:30.:30:39.

about your own class? I might well write

:30:40.:30:44.

about manual labour. I was a dustman for Camden Council

:30:45.:30:49.

for six months. I was free in that I went

:30:50.:30:51.

to a wonderful state grammar school, full of working class kids

:30:52.:30:55.

from central London. I feel very easy in the class

:30:56.:30:58.

system. So I think it's the problem

:30:59.:31:02.

of my interviewers. The interviewers are constantly

:31:03.:31:06.

boxing you in. Interesting, the narrator

:31:07.:31:08.

in the book... We've established that the narrator

:31:09.:31:12.

speaks for you some of the time. For example, I love

:31:13.:31:19.

a New Zealand sauvignon blanc. He will only drink

:31:20.:31:26.

the French variety. I like to share a glass

:31:27.:31:36.

with my mother. You may never have experienced,

:31:37.:31:38.

or you will have forgotten, a good burgundy, her favourite,

:31:39.:31:42.

or a good sancerre, also her favourite, decanted

:31:43.:31:46.

through a healthy placenta. Even before the wine arrives,

:31:47.:31:50.

tonight, her Jean Max Roger sancerre, at the sound of a drawn

:31:51.:31:56.

cork, I feel it on my face I know that alcohol will

:31:57.:32:00.

lower my intelligence. As you get older, do you find it

:32:01.:32:06.

hard not to become a bit of a curmudgeon about

:32:07.:32:15.

the state of the world, the decline of the West,

:32:16.:32:17.

what everyone else is doing? No, the older I get,

:32:18.:32:20.

and the closer it comes to the point at which I vanish,

:32:21.:32:24.

the more I want the It was in my youth when I had just

:32:25.:32:27.

two pairs of jeans and three T-shirts and paid ?3 a week

:32:28.:32:35.

for a rented flat in Stockwell that in a way, I could allow

:32:36.:32:38.

the full rein of pessimism. Nuclear war, bring it on,

:32:39.:32:43.

it will be so exciting. I even started a novel on that

:32:44.:32:46.

very same theme. Based on Defoe's Journal

:32:47.:32:50.

Of The Plague Year. No, I give my foetus a double

:32:51.:32:55.

account of the world. Nuclear exchange, climate change,

:32:56.:33:00.

all the things that make an intellectual pessimistic,

:33:01.:33:05.

but then let him run Hundreds of millions of people taken

:33:06.:33:09.

out of poverty, more people living longer,

:33:10.:33:13.

unbelievable access to information, a golden age of

:33:14.:33:17.

scientific discovery. We know more about the cosmos,

:33:18.:33:19.

more about the human cell, We live in amazing times,

:33:20.:33:22.

which makes it all the It was 350 years ago

:33:23.:33:29.

that the Great Fire It ignited late on 2nd September,

:33:30.:33:40.

1666 and continued for several days. Now it actually killed remarkably

:33:41.:33:48.

few people, perhaps only six, but it destroyed swathes of buildings,

:33:49.:33:53.

much of the old city, There's lots to say about it and how

:33:54.:33:55.

the initial reaction was to blame the French and Dutch,

:33:56.:34:02.

but one historian has been looking at the buildings that were lost,

:34:03.:34:05.

the sights that tourists might be gazing upon today,

:34:06.:34:08.

had the fire not got to them first. Matthew Green wrote London:

:34:09.:34:11.

A Travel Guide Through Time Good evening. You're going to take

:34:12.:34:22.

us through some pictures of one or two of these lost buildings. Let's

:34:23.:34:28.

have a look at the first. Bridewell Palace, one of many imposing

:34:29.:34:31.

riverside structures, as you can see, rather rambling brick palace,

:34:32.:34:35.

set around a number of courtyards with its own gardens and Private

:34:36.:34:40.

wharf. This built between 1550 and 1520 and it was one of Henry VIII's

:34:41.:34:45.

favourite palaces and we think he had his final, rather quarrelsome

:34:46.:34:48.

supper with Catherine of Aragon there. Made of? Brick which was a

:34:49.:34:54.

sign of status at the time when most of the houses were lurching, timber

:34:55.:34:57.

framed buildings. It was on the bank of the Fleet River and on the third

:34:58.:35:01.

day of the fire it was hoped the river would act as a fire break but

:35:02.:35:05.

instead, the fire merely vaulted across and decimated the palace.

:35:06.:35:13.

Let's have a look at another one. This is what I would describe as the

:35:14.:35:16.

marvel of medieval London, Gothic St Paul's Cathedral, a remorselessly

:35:17.:35:19.

Gothic structure, very different to Sir Christopher Wren's neoclassical

:35:20.:35:23.

successor, all flying buttresses and pointed parrots, crawling with

:35:24.:35:27.

gargoyles and the most impressive feature was originally the

:35:28.:35:29.

monumental lead and timber spire which rose to 489 feet. You would

:35:30.:35:35.

not get anything as high in London again until 1964 but it was hit by

:35:36.:35:39.

lightning in 1561 and on the eve of the fire, it looked like a bazaar

:35:40.:35:44.

inside, it was the most popular public space. On the same site as

:35:45.:35:49.

the existing church? Yes. An interesting feature is that these

:35:50.:35:52.

buildings were lost to the fire. If they had not been, they may have

:35:53.:35:56.

been lost anyway because there are plenty of other things that could

:35:57.:35:59.

have destroyed them white human action. We have one to demonstrate

:36:00.:36:04.

that. The Victorians had an obsession with knocking down

:36:05.:36:08.

beautiful, antiquated buildings. Looking at Nonesuch house, perhaps

:36:09.:36:16.

my favourite. This is fabulous. It is wildly eccentric, meticulously

:36:17.:36:20.

carved, gaudily painted. This was the marvel of London bridge,

:36:21.:36:23.

straddling both sides of the street, bulging over the swirling River

:36:24.:36:26.

Thames and it is an architectural mongrel. There was nothing like it.

:36:27.:36:35.

When did it come down? Not until the 1770s, after all of the other houses

:36:36.:36:41.

on the bridge were taken. Right over the Thames, these days, you could

:36:42.:36:44.

not build it because it would obstruct the views of Saint Pauls

:36:45.:36:48.

and someone would say you can't. Exactly and what a shame because it

:36:49.:36:55.

is such a crazy building. That is one we miss. How many buildings

:36:56.:37:00.

predating the fire are left in London? You won't find more than 18,

:37:01.:37:05.

in the actual catchment area of the fire itself, really no more landmark

:37:06.:37:09.

buildings apart from the Tower of London and the Guildhall, who facade

:37:10.:37:13.

dates from the 14 30s. Outside that zone, you find the Middle Temple

:37:14.:37:17.

Hall, stable in in Hoban and one or two others but essentially, as

:37:18.:37:21.

Johnny Flynn said after the blaze, London was and is no more. -- John

:37:22.:37:29.

Eva Lind. The streetscape was a very interesting feature of the city of I

:37:30.:37:36.

bought a yes and much of that is preserved because gritter Wren and

:37:37.:37:41.

others had visions an Italian aid -- Sir Christopher Wren and others had

:37:42.:37:44.

visions of an Italianate city but others came back as they wanted to

:37:45.:37:47.

do and started rebuilding it and many of the street are still

:37:48.:37:50.

labyrinth in even though the wooden buildings have long since vanished.

:37:51.:37:55.

They still adhere to the old topographical hotspot that people

:37:56.:37:58.

knew and loved and feared as medieval London. Thank you for

:37:59.:37:59.

joining us. That's just about it tonight,

:38:00.:38:00.

but let's end on the elephant. Prior to the arrival of Europeans,

:38:01.:38:03.

scientists think that Africa may have been home to as many

:38:04.:38:08.

as 20 million of them. By 1979, that number

:38:09.:38:10.

was just 1.3 million. And the Great Elephant Census

:38:11.:38:12.

released today found that in just the last seven years,

:38:13.:38:16.

30% of Africa's elephants have disappeared, lost to poachers

:38:17.:38:20.

serving an insatiable It would be a pity if it we only had

:38:21.:38:21.

pictures to remember

:38:22.:38:28.

Are we any closer to knowing what 'Brexit' means? Is the murder in Harlow a hate crime? Plus Zika, Ian McEwan on his new novel, and the Great Fire of London.


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