26/09/2016 Newsnight


26/09/2016

With Evan Davis. Newsnight speaks to shadow chancellor John McDonnell from the Labour Party conference in Liverpool.


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Transcript


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In this party, you no longer have to whisper its name, it's called

:00:08.:00:11.

On stage in Liverpool, politics on the left

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After years of running from it, Labour is now embracing it.

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One of the boldest political experiments of the age.

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The Shadow Chancellor is here to tell us what the S

:00:29.:00:30.

And is this a party that can work together, or two

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I hope that he can put together a Shadow Cabinet of all the talents,

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but that does require Jeremy and his newly re-endorsed

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mandate to reach out to the Parliamentary Labour

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Party and say, I do want to work together.

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And Team Sky defends Sir Bradley Wiggins' use of steroids

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We can still trust Sky, we can trust in their achievements?

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100%, you can trust in Sky, absolutely, 100%.

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That's the very essence of why we created this team in the first

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We're here, as the Labour Party is here, for its annual conference.

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A changing political order is underway, entrenching.

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For a taste of the different style, here is the picture

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of Jeremy Corbyn, who abolished the post of shadow mental

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health minister, here offering support to the campaign

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Campaigning for himself to do something is a novel approach

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The other strange moment was around the speech

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of shadow defence secretary Clive Lewis.

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Here is the footage of him, shot by ITN, just before

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giving his speech, apparently being told by email

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The autocue was being altered on his behalf.

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His compromising tone on perhaps keeping Trident,

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toned down to leave open the option of dumping it.

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Some of us who live by autocue know that you must never ever

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But the excuse was the one that producers use here,

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they always say the boss wanted the script change made.

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Well, fun and games aside, Labour is, I suppose, two parties

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Last year, Labour met just after Jeremy Corbyn

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Shell shock was the predominant mood among the old guard.

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This year the party is again meeting just after Jeremy Corbyn has been

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The mood of the old guard is weary, reluctant, resignation.

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However, there is a new guard as well.

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And that, to be blunt, is where the action is.

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Here is where it's happening, a real buzz, affirmative ideas and

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discussion on the alternative left. However this isn't the Labour Party.

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It is an event organised by Momentum, nearby. Reflecting its

:03:08.:03:10.

ambition, it is called the World Transformed. What's wrong with

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politics at the moment is that it is about whether you are left wing or

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right-wing, which faction, but that's not what people care about,

:03:24.:03:27.

they care about ideas, issues that affect them. Not only is this not

:03:28.:03:35.

the hard left, it is very soft and compassionate, but the idea that it

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is left rather than just progressive I think is highly misleading.

:03:41.:03:46.

Momentum only has 18,000 members, far fewer than the Liberal

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Democrats. Think about their impact on politics. By organisation and

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dedication that centrists struggled to manage from their homes, they

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have changed the opposition party beyond recognition and they are

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entrenching that change. A certain clarity of purpose fuelling the

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organisation's drive. But then this is the visual Labour conference. It

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has its moments but it is perhaps a little flat. The stands in the

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exhibition area rather obviously well spaced out. It seems that the

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businesses who often want to lobby and be seen at these events have

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largely stayed away and many of the party malcontents are also absent.

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Is there a clarity and unity of purpose here? I think we are kidding

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anyone if we think that the wounds are going to be healed overnight but

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there is a strong sense that we now have been reminded of the job that

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we need to get on and do and what people want to see is a strong

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opposition. I think there's a real desire to do things that are going

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to make things happen and change in this country. An opposition to

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what's going on. It would be wrong to portray this official conference

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as in any way lacklustre. They can fill this enormous hall when they

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need to, but the official conference has one disadvantage compared to the

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leftist enthusiasts on the other side of town. Over there, they are

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getting stuck into the issues, the things that matter to them. Over

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here, given the different factions in the party and the trouble they

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have been through, it is hard to get the conversation to move beyond who

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the leader is and what the rules of engagement are. This may or may not

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be the year that they managed to progress beyond that. On one measure

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of Labour ship -- leadership, Labour is the biggest party in Europe.

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Recovery from its traumas will not be instant. Today, John McDonnell

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took to the stage, fleshing out his plans and he joins me now. So you

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said that it is a government in waiting, policies on the shelf, you

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must get down to the detailed implementation for those policies.

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Can we start with tax? It is 37% of national income. Roughly where would

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you to see that end up after five years of Labour government? One of

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the reviews we are undertaking a review of tax, it is the first of

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all the requirements of tax that we have but also the range of taxation

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we want. That's the first stage that is taking place now. We have done a

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review that we commissioned last year with HMRC looking at tax

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evasion and avoidance, a lot of work on that. We reviewed HMRC as to how

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it should be managed and organised. It is one of the pieces of work we

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are doing. That doesn't sound like a government in waiting. I'm not

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asking you to give me to the nearest 0.5%, but to the nearest 5%? Nearer

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the election, you will know more. There is a sense of urgency on this

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and that is why it... You can't tell me now, you've been Shadow

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Chancellor for a year, you can't tell me within 5% of national income

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where you think the tax burden should be? Roughly it should remain

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where it is. Roughly the same as it is? Let me finish. We don't want to

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pre-empt the reviews we are doing. What we have said so far is that

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first of all, we are not talking about increasing income tax on

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middle and low earners, we want to ensure that the corporations start

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paying their way, we want to reverse some of the benefits that have been

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given to the rich and we want to tackle tax evasion and avoidance. We

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want to invest in the economy and we can grow the tax base. You have not

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told me that you do not see the tax burden changing very much from where

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it is. We will look at the tax base and we will come to conclusions

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before the general election. But you must have some idea, you've been in

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politics for many years, Shadow Chancellor for a year. Do you want

:08:21.:08:24.

to see us like Sweden and France and the United States? I want to insure

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that our taxation is fair. I want to make sure that it falls on those

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best able to pay and that corporations pay their way. We're

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not talking about your Matic increases in overall taxation but we

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want to ensure that the work we do, which I promised in the Labour Party

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conference last year and this year, that every instrument we use will be

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tested vigorously. You raised the idea of tax in your speech today,

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you cannot be taxing salaries and wages, we need to tax more on

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wealth. I'm not going to expect you to tell me the details of your

:09:04.:09:10.

wealth tax plan. We lost the review today. Will it be on housing, a

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Mansion Tax? That raised 1 billion. I did not think that was going to be

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very successful. In the review, we will go out and listen to people's

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ideas and come back fairly quickly on that about the proposals. So you

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have said you are going to move to a wealth tax and you, at no point --

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at this bite, have no idea how you are going to do that? -- at this

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point. We are looking at wealth and we will do it in a way that engages

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with the wider community and we will come back with our proposals but the

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point of the exercise, launched today, is to ensure that whatever

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measure we use is rigorously tested. I thought you were a government in

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waiting. The whole point of today's exercise was to say that we need to

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be ready for a general election, we need policies on the shelf and

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implementation plans ready. A number of areas like this, that is what we

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have lost. I'm not expecting you to talk about the detail but I thought

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we might get the parameters. Another area, immigration. If Labour comes

:10:17.:10:23.

to power, would policies be adopted that would have the objective of

:10:24.:10:29.

trying to get the overall level of net migration down? Migration is

:10:30.:10:32.

dependent on what the economy needs and you can only determine that as

:10:33.:10:36.

the economy develops. Take the Brexit issue, we want to ensure that

:10:37.:10:42.

we have access to the single market. That will be associated with free

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movement of Labour but that has consequences, the undercutting of

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wages and pressure on public services, so we will address those

:10:55.:11:00.

issues. Is the answer to the question is, getting immigration

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down, no, it will not be your objective? It is a simple question.

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The answer is straightforward. No, it wasn't. It will be based on what

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the economy needs. Do you expect that to be lower? We will see how

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the economy develops, it is unpredictable. We want to grow the

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economy and at different stages there may be opportunities where

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immigration is important to ensure that the economy grows. Many people

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are worried about immigration for a different reason to the one you

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emphasise, you talk about they don't like wages being undercut, being

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pushed down by the arrival of competing workers. Many people are

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not worried about that, they are worried about things going on in

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society, change that they find difficult to digest, they see the

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community and language changing. Is that a legitimate objection to

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immigration? It is not an objection to immigration, people are fearful

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of change sometimes and our job in government and at every level is

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basically to assist people to overcome those fears and address the

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issue of change. That has happened for generations. It sounds like you

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won't let that be taken into account, it is just an economic

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question. It is also about pressure on public services. Some of the

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concerns we have heard on the doorstep, especially during the

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Brexit campaign, was about housing and the health service and we can

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deal with that by investing in those public services. A third one where

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I'm afraid the policy is as clear as mud to me, Trident. Now, is it your

:12:36.:12:44.

belief that when Labour goes into the next election, its policy will

:12:45.:12:49.

be to renew Trident? The existing party policy is to renew Trident.

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We've had a debate in the House of Commons which was a free vote

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because we believe this was a conscience issue and as a result,

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the party came to a consideration and the attitude amongst our members

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is the same. We will get the right to MPs and our members who support

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Trident to vote accordingly but at the same time we will enable others

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to campaign against. I don't understand, let's suppose that we

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have an election next year or the year after, which is not wild

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fantasy, let's suppose we have an election. If I vote Labour, and by

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voting for Trident or don't know? In the period until now and the general

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election, we will fall our manifesto. There will be people like

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me who are going to be arguing that we should have Trident and others

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will argue to keep it. At the moment the majority position is to keep it

:13:48.:13:51.

but at the same time, when we go into Parliament, this is a

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conscience issue and there will be a free vote. Clive Lewis, the Defence

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Secretary, has said that it is time the party stopped picking at the

:13:59.:14:05.

scab of Trident and he said that he won't be coming back to conference

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between now and the next election to try and undo the policy that you

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have an Trident as things stand. Clive Lewis, the Defence Secretary,

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saying he isn't coming back to look at the policy again. Is your opinion

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that it is open to be discussed again? It is always open within the

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Democratic process of the Labour Party for the members to raise an

:14:28.:14:33.

issue, that is called democracy. So is Clive Lewis just speaking for

:14:34.:14:39.

himself? What is the point of...? He says that the matter has been

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decided but it is always open for the party to raise these issues and

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I'm sure that will happen on a range of views. So the Defence Secretary

:14:48.:14:53.

is confused, the Shadow Defence Secretary, confused about what the

:14:54.:15:14.

policy is going to be an Trident? He is stating what the position is at

:15:15.:15:22.

the moment. He has the right to review these policies and to change

:15:23.:15:26.

these policies. Anybody in the party can campaign on these issues. Your

:15:27.:15:29.

foreign affairs spokesman says there is an ongoing review. Is that your

:15:30.:15:34.

understanding? Has been an ongoing review for some time. His view is he

:15:35.:15:41.

cannot see it coming back however it is open to others in that to say

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they wanted discussed again. This is a government in waiting. You're not

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a government in waiting now? We need to become a government in waiting.

:15:56.:16:06.

That means developing these policies. The Trident one makes a

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real point because it does not sound like you know what the policy is

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what it's going to be. There are different views within this party.

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Is it conceivable you will have a policy on Trident which the leader

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of your party will not publicly support? Jeremy's position is

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straightforward, he does not support the renewal of Trident. But if there

:16:33.:16:37.

is a view then that will be party policy. And when we go into that

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election should we believe the policy or the belief of the leader?

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The reality is, whatever happens about Trident policy and development

:16:51.:16:52.

there will be a free vote in parliament because it is a

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conscience issue. We will not know the outcome of that vote? I think

:16:58.:17:03.

that will happen among a number of parties. It is so significant in the

:17:04.:17:08.

minds of the people it has become a conscience issue. We are going to

:17:09.:17:20.

keep you there and talk about party matters. Clive Lewis said you will

:17:21.:17:24.

stick by the Nato target. That is policy. Labour Government have

:17:25.:17:30.

consistently spent above that number. We're going to talk little

:17:31.:17:35.

bit more. We cannot not talk about party unity because if there is none

:17:36.:17:39.

of the latter there will not be an opportunity to implement the former.

:17:40.:17:44.

Our political editor gave his weekend up to keep tabs.

:17:45.:18:04.

The revolution may have some way to run but this was beyond their

:18:05.:18:11.

imagination a few years ago. Today was the time for generosity, as John

:18:12.:18:22.

McDonnell called on them to think about how they could change the

:18:23.:18:26.

world. If Labour came together they could create a radically fear of

:18:27.:18:32.

society. The world has changed, and the things Jeremy Corbyn is talking

:18:33.:18:35.

about are the issues people are finding relevant and in their lives,

:18:36.:18:41.

finding appropriate housing when rent is high and house ownership is

:18:42.:18:43.

going down and house-building is at the lowest point in peacetime

:18:44.:18:47.

Britain. We need to address the issues. There is a change in the

:18:48.:18:55.

atmosphere as both sides peer out of the trenches. Jeremy Corbyn is

:18:56.:18:59.

embarking on a note reach programme and his critics admit he's here to

:19:00.:19:05.

stay. -- and our reach. There is still mutual suspicion and most of

:19:06.:19:09.

the plotters say the need reassurance before they return to

:19:10.:19:14.

the fore. I hope he can put together a Shadow Cabinet of all the talents.

:19:15.:19:21.

But that does require Jeremy and his newly reimbursed mandate to reach

:19:22.:19:28.

out to the PLP and say, I want to work together. That is why Shadow

:19:29.:19:33.

Cabinet elections are a significant indicator. One old hand says it is

:19:34.:19:42.

unreasonable for those who turned their back on Jeremy Corbyn to

:19:43.:19:45.

demand elections to the Shadow Cabinet. The argument about whether

:19:46.:19:52.

we should have that, I was elected in that process, but the PLP said,

:19:53.:19:56.

get rid of them. Now they're saying they wanted. We've said a lot of

:19:57.:20:01.

things, some abusive comments have been made on both sides, whether it

:20:02.:20:07.

is some in the PLP or some in Momentum. Wipe the slate clean. Over

:20:08.:20:13.

at the political and cultural festival organised by Jeremy

:20:14.:20:17.

Corbyn's Pretoria guard in the Momentum movement, one supporter

:20:18.:20:21.

said the plotters should fall into line and back their leader. I think

:20:22.:20:25.

he will be popular once he stops being knifed in the back by the

:20:26.:20:32.

right-wing. If you are a football manager and half the team leave the

:20:33.:20:35.

pitch before the whistle is blown you're not going to score many

:20:36.:20:41.

goals. But the former frontbenchers are not giving up and are working as

:20:42.:20:47.

a group, as they say they need clarity on the contentious issue of

:20:48.:20:54.

the selection of MPs. I could see the group going back but it would

:20:55.:20:57.

only be worthwhile if there were signs from the leadership that they

:20:58.:21:00.

genuinely wanted to be a government of all the talents. Also, making it

:21:01.:21:06.

clear that the selection is not where time should be spent. It

:21:07.:21:10.

should be spent on fighting the Tories. Ken Loach says MPs should

:21:11.:21:15.

learn to come to terms with democracy. They are on the ballot

:21:16.:21:21.

paper because they are chosen by the Labour Party constituency. If they

:21:22.:21:29.

got a majority, they got that as the Labour Party. Have you got job

:21:30.:21:34.

security for five years? Being an MP is not a job for life. Many of the

:21:35.:21:40.

plotters are contrite and admit it was a mistake of historic

:21:41.:21:44.

proportions. But when it comes to control of their party, the battle

:21:45.:21:52.

is far from over. Nick is with me now. You've been out and about

:21:53.:21:58.

today. How has this marriage guidance business gone? There was a

:21:59.:22:02.

big moment today. You were just discussing on that issue from

:22:03.:22:06.

Labour, nuclear disarmament. This conference may be remembered for a

:22:07.:22:11.

stand-off on personnel. Charlie Faulkner says if Jeremy Corbyn wants

:22:12.:22:15.

to bring back the frontbenchers he'd need to give ground on the

:22:16.:22:19.

elections. I understand Jeremy Corbyn is prepared to send out a

:22:20.:22:22.

pretty tough message and say he would be willing to move before

:22:23.:22:26.

there is an agreement on Shadow Cabinet elections. No reshuffle

:22:27.:22:32.

until after this conference concludes but evidently, Jeremy

:22:33.:22:36.

Corbyn is saying that if he wants to appoint a Shadow Cabinet he could

:22:37.:22:40.

appoint a very respectable and credible Shadow Cabinet tomorrow and

:22:41.:22:47.

as per the wider front bench... There are 65 vacancies to fill and

:22:48.:22:52.

evidently what he is saying is we could have an even more efficient

:22:53.:22:55.

front bench if we did not have as many. You mentioned in your piece

:22:56.:23:02.

they are organised, tell me about the organisation of the rebels, the

:23:03.:23:12.

opposition. There is one laudable. One frontbencher said there are some

:23:13.:23:17.

loan rules but most of them are swimming in a shawl. Their efforts

:23:18.:23:21.

are being co-ordinated by the whips and the leadership of the PLP. What

:23:22.:23:26.

I've learned is when that group here of a lone wolf, they see a name in

:23:27.:23:33.

the newspapers, that person is tapped on the shoulder and given a

:23:34.:23:40.

message, watch out because if you go in your going to undermine Tom

:23:41.:23:44.

Watson's efforts to get Shadow Cabinet elections. Why is there a

:23:45.:23:51.

fuss? The Shadow Cabinet has three members on the NEC and they are

:23:52.:23:54.

watching the balance of that very carefully. John McDonnell is still

:23:55.:24:00.

with me. Let's talk about some of these party matters. Does it bother

:24:01.:24:14.

you that they are acting as a union? A shoal of fish tapping wolves on

:24:15.:24:18.

the shoulder? It is a bit of a mixed message. There have always been

:24:19.:24:21.

different complexions. I'm not aware of this analogy. The whole tenure of

:24:22.:24:28.

this conference is about uniting and if you talk to the membership and

:24:29.:24:33.

large amounts of the PLP, they want the party to unite, to develop the

:24:34.:24:38.

policies that we want for a government in waiting. It would be

:24:39.:24:45.

tempting to appoint a Shadow Cabinet of Corbynistas rebels who want to

:24:46.:24:50.

come back. This sort of language about rebels, a number of people

:24:51.:24:53.

have resigned, some of them want to come back. That's great. I would

:24:54.:24:58.

welcome them all back. You see you'd welcome them all back. Some of them

:24:59.:25:02.

have said really nasty things about the leader. Is it literally wiping

:25:03.:25:10.

the slate clean or are there some for whom that slate is too scarred?

:25:11.:25:18.

Yes, yes... What we've been saying is what is said on tour remains

:25:19.:25:24.

onto! Leadership election took place, Jeremy Corbyn and increased

:25:25.:25:30.

mandate, you put them behind. One person said he could not tolerate

:25:31.:25:34.

his hypocrisy any longer. You're talking to someone who has also not

:25:35.:25:39.

been very careful with his language. You said he was part of the

:25:40.:25:44.

establishment, throwing everything, you regret that... In a campaign,

:25:45.:25:50.

harsh words get spoken but when you come to the end of that, Democratic

:25:51.:25:56.

decisions are made and even despite those harsh words, I was in that

:25:57.:26:00.

green room when the announcement was made and I was extremely friendly

:26:01.:26:07.

and comradely. Hilary Benn is a big beast of the party. It would be

:26:08.:26:12.

great if you could get him. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn would like that?

:26:13.:26:16.

Yell Mac I'm sure. I've worked with Hillary over the years, he was a

:26:17.:26:21.

local ward councillor in my constituency. He is incredibly

:26:22.:26:24.

talented and could play a vital role. You would obviously facilitate

:26:25.:26:31.

unity if you made a compromise. I'm making cup of tea is with everyone.

:26:32.:26:37.

That is not comprise, it is charm. One of them would be to say you

:26:38.:26:42.

could have Shadow Cabinet elections. It has not been ruled out. How

:26:43.:26:48.

likely do you think it is? You could click your fingers and do it. This

:26:49.:26:53.

is the problem we've got. Any move made by Jeremy could bring some

:26:54.:26:57.

on-site and push others away. What we've got to do is build a consensus

:26:58.:27:01.

so we don't push people back into the corners again. That takes a

:27:02.:27:07.

little bit of time and quite a bit of compromising. Jeremy is into

:27:08.:27:12.

that. Who will be pushed away by compromise? Some within the party

:27:13.:27:20.

are seeing if there are Shadow Cabinet elections, we want a role

:27:21.:27:23.

within that, and that is the membership. But that is just one

:27:24.:27:27.

issue, there are a whole range of issues about democratising the

:27:28.:27:31.

party, involving members, how you elect the NEC. The other issue, the

:27:32.:27:41.

PLP feel very strongly about it, mandatory reselection. At the moment

:27:42.:27:47.

they can be booted out if the party does not like them. We've ruled out.

:27:48.:27:54.

On the boundary commission, we've got the Chief Whip leading on that.

:27:55.:27:58.

We oppose it in the court and Parliament. If it goes ahead, the

:27:59.:28:04.

existing rules will apply. That means if an MP has a certain

:28:05.:28:08.

percentage in a constituency, they will have the right. Even if the

:28:09.:28:15.

membership say they want that. You plan to oppose it? Is our view is

:28:16.:28:25.

not appropriate, we've got to overcome this problem hopefully by

:28:26.:28:33.

defeating the boundary commission. We're trying to make sure the

:28:34.:28:41.

existing rules apply. John McDonnell is the best in the Shadow Cabinet

:28:42.:28:45.

but how many of the others can you name?

:28:46.:28:49.

With some of the familiar old names not in the shadow cabinet,

:28:50.:28:52.

it's taking time for everyone to get to know the new.

:28:53.:28:55.

We sent Lewis Goodall out in the streets of Liverpool,

:28:56.:28:57.

to see how well Labour's senior figures are cutting through.

:28:58.:29:09.

This gentleman here? The Labour leader. His name? It has gone out of

:29:10.:29:18.

my head. Do you know any members of the Shadow Cabinet? I'm going to

:29:19.:29:25.

look like the typical stupid person. This person here? John McDonnell,

:29:26.:29:33.

Shadow Chancellor. Pretty good. This lady? That is Diane Abbott. Do you

:29:34.:29:43.

know him? No. And her? No. This is bad. You know her? Giving a big

:29:44.:29:50.

speech today, do you know who that is? Who is that? Any idea? No. John

:29:51.:30:00.

McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor. Is he changing anything? I haven't had

:30:01.:30:05.

much luck in Liverpool but I'm hoping here will be more successful.

:30:06.:30:17.

The Shadow Justice Secretary, what do you think of him? Not my cup of

:30:18.:30:25.

tea. We can find out this stuff, so what is the purpose of you trying to

:30:26.:30:33.

catch us out? Trying to demonstrate... Showing we are in it

:30:34.:30:38.

-- showing we are ignorant but I don't think this is a very success

:30:39.:30:41.

will argument. I'm not criticising this gentleman. He is basically

:30:42.:30:48.

saying, you don't know who these people are, wouldn't it be more

:30:49.:30:53.

sensible to let the MPs decide? You have done better than many of the

:30:54.:30:57.

Labour Party members? Even the members? You should sign up, they

:30:58.:30:59.

are just down there. Politics can be about vision,

:31:00.:31:09.

having a clear idea Weighing up different views,

:31:10.:31:11.

working out the best compromise. You judge whether Mr Corbyn has

:31:12.:31:20.

the vision, we are going to discuss Two people not in the Corbyn

:31:21.:31:23.

wing are with me. He was in the shadow

:31:24.:31:26.

cabinet under Ed Miliband, she was in the shadow cabinet under

:31:27.:31:32.

Jeremy Corbyn until she resigned. That was back in June. I don't know

:31:33.:31:45.

if you heard everything John Gunnell was saying there. I wanted to know

:31:46.:31:50.

how reassuring it was that Macdonald Donnell. He said that there would be

:31:51.:31:55.

no mandatory reselection, is that correct? That is a positive thing to

:31:56.:32:02.

hear and I think it is a good thing because what we need after a

:32:03.:32:06.

bruising summer, there needs to be a reaching out and working together

:32:07.:32:09.

and addressing some of the concerns that have been raised by the

:32:10.:32:13.

Parliamentary Labour Party. He seemed to imply that it had already

:32:14.:32:16.

been clarified. Is that clear to you? I hope that is the case. For

:32:17.:32:25.

John to say that, I haven't heard it clearly before, but for John to say

:32:26.:32:29.

that I think is important because it sends the message about hearing some

:32:30.:32:34.

of the concerns and saying that if we are to move forward, as we need

:32:35.:32:39.

to, to move forward in a way that means we can focus on the Tories

:32:40.:32:42.

means that we address some of the issues that have been raised. You

:32:43.:32:48.

have to rack set the rules as they are, we have a set of rules, the

:32:49.:32:51.

selection of candidates, where people are coming in, new

:32:52.:32:59.

candidates, you have to rack set that there will be no change to the

:33:00.:33:02.

rules on parliamentary selection. Shut down the issue and frankly we

:33:03.:33:06.

shouldn't be having any talk about the deselection of Labour MPs. The

:33:07.:33:11.

only talk of deselection there should be is of the Conservative MPs

:33:12.:33:15.

in the next election. Let me ask you, would you both say that you are

:33:16.:33:24.

socialists? An embarrassed -- not embarrassed to use the word? I have

:33:25.:33:28.

called myself a democratic socialist, because the words of

:33:29.:33:34.

equality and fairness. But I also recognise that you need a way in

:33:35.:33:42.

which you are developing an agenda, the language that can reach out. I

:33:43.:33:47.

think it is positive, if we can find ways to come together, focus on

:33:48.:33:52.

common values, that is an agenda. Democratic socialist, Socialist

:33:53.:33:58.

democrat. Just a socialist. People watching the programme did not care

:33:59.:34:02.

about labels, they will care about what you will do for me and my

:34:03.:34:05.

community, how are you going to build a fairer Britain and help me

:34:06.:34:14.

realise my ambition? I published a pamphlet on the case for socialism.

:34:15.:34:18.

I think this is a slight distraction, the big message is

:34:19.:34:22.

about how we invest in the future, shared prosperity, that's what it's

:34:23.:34:25.

about and I don't want to lose focus on that. I don't think any of us do.

:34:26.:34:30.

The conference should be about setting the agenda. Being the same

:34:31.:34:35.

page as the British people, having an economy that works for everybody,

:34:36.:34:38.

tackling the issues following Brexit, making sure we have the NHS

:34:39.:34:43.

and social care that are fit for the future. You're both behaving well

:34:44.:34:47.

and saying what the party should say. We are saying what we think. So

:34:48.:34:53.

why don't you serve in the Shadow Cabinet? The obvious way to serve

:34:54.:34:57.

your party, he has the mandate, you have some of the talent and ideas,

:34:58.:35:04.

why not join the Shadow Cabinet? I'm standing to become the chair of the

:35:05.:35:06.

House of Commons select committee but I wouldn't rule anything out.

:35:07.:35:10.

There are a variety of ways that people can contribute. Tom Watson,

:35:11.:35:15.

part of the way he became the deputy leader is because of the fantastic

:35:16.:35:18.

work he did on the culture select committee, holding people like you

:35:19.:35:22.

to account or Margaret Hodge, holding the multinationals to

:35:23.:35:29.

account. It sounds like you are running away from serving in Jeremy

:35:30.:35:32.

Corbyn's Labour Party, you would like an independent job. Why not

:35:33.:35:38.

serve the new leader, he has a mandate? I haven't ruled anything

:35:39.:35:44.

out. So you are available? I am in the election I'm standing in at the

:35:45.:35:51.

moment. If people want to serve, I think we need people doing a variety

:35:52.:35:54.

of things, there is not one exclusive way to contribute. There

:35:55.:35:59.

will be people who will go back and serve on the front bench and they

:36:00.:36:03.

will have my support. There is a bigger picture about how we have a

:36:04.:36:06.

much better way of constructing a better way of working and dealing

:36:07.:36:09.

with the issues that led to the leadership election. I think that is

:36:10.:36:18.

right,... Will you serve in the Shadow Cabinet? The reason the

:36:19.:36:24.

election to the Shadow Cabinet is that it is a win-win. You may not

:36:25.:36:31.

win that argument. If there isn't an elected Shadow Cabinet, why don't

:36:32.:36:35.

you serve Jeremy Corbyn? By making the point that if you want a way in

:36:36.:36:40.

which we build bridges across the Parliamentary Labour Party, which I

:36:41.:36:43.

want to see, between the leadership and those who have served and those

:36:44.:36:47.

who chose not to over the last 12 months, some things may need to

:36:48.:36:51.

change, give and take on both sides and the role of the leader is

:36:52.:36:54.

central in changing some of the conditions. That's why having a way

:36:55.:36:59.

for the Parliamentary Labour Party to have a stake in the success of us

:37:00.:37:03.

as an operation, that is an important move. I think it is

:37:04.:37:09.

important because we want to see a shift on some of the issues and also

:37:10.:37:14.

around tackling the abuse we've seen in the party, some action to reduce

:37:15.:37:20.

and stop that. And we need to move together constructively, that's what

:37:21.:37:24.

the members want to see. We have a view seconds. You told me many

:37:25.:37:28.

things you want. Chuka Umunna, what are the compromises you are -- your

:37:29.:37:34.

wing of the party is willing to make? You have lost, you have been

:37:35.:37:38.

trounced, you have a leader with different beliefs, what is the

:37:39.:37:41.

compromise you are going to make for him? I think people are going to go

:37:42.:37:47.

back and serve on the front bench. Secondly, in many respects, this

:37:48.:37:51.

internal navel-gazing, the obsession with each other isn't going to win

:37:52.:37:54.

us the election. The one gold everyone has agreed on is winning

:37:55.:37:59.

the election but let me say that we're not going to do by talking to

:38:00.:38:04.

each other about things we agree on -- the one goal. On the economy, one

:38:05.:38:11.

reason we lost the election is our perceived economic incompetence, we

:38:12.:38:16.

must deal with that. Just over one third of Labour voters voted against

:38:17.:38:21.

the official position of the Labour Party, on the referendum,

:38:22.:38:23.

principally on issues around immigration. Why don't advocate the

:38:24.:38:27.

adoption of the approach that Ukip toque but we need an approach that

:38:28.:38:33.

resonates with our values -- that Ukip toque. We're out of time. --

:38:34.:38:37.

that they took. Now before we go, we've been

:38:38.:38:40.

reporting for the last week on the controversy surrounding

:38:41.:38:42.

the use of powerful steroid injections by one of Britain's

:38:43.:38:45.

greatest sportsmen, Sir Bradley Wiggins,

:38:46.:38:46.

ahead of three of his biggest races. Details of the injections emerged

:38:47.:38:49.

after hackers released files from the international

:38:50.:38:53.

anti-doping body Wada. What they revealed was

:38:54.:38:55.

perfectly within the rules - but several experts and cyclists

:38:56.:38:58.

suggested his use of a powerful drug which has been used in the past

:38:59.:39:01.

by cheats just didn't smell good. Today the head of Wiggins' cycling

:39:02.:39:06.

team, Sir Dave Brailsford, spoke for the first time

:39:07.:39:08.

about the affair to the BBC's Here's Mark Daly, who's been

:39:09.:39:11.

covering the story for us. It was 11 days ago when we first

:39:12.:39:23.

heard about Bradley Wiggins's therapeutic use exemptions, revealed

:39:24.:39:29.

by the suspected Russian hackers and on Newsnight we were raising

:39:30.:39:33.

questions about this powerful drug that he was given special

:39:34.:39:38.

dispensation to use by the cycling authorities for his asthma and

:39:39.:39:42.

allergies. It was controversial because it is a banned drug that was

:39:43.:39:48.

abused for years by cyclists including Michael Rasmussen, the

:39:49.:39:51.

pro-cyclist who told us that it is one of the most potent drugs are

:39:52.:39:55.

used. We heard from Sir Bradley Wiggins' former team doctor who said

:39:56.:40:00.

that he was surprised that his former rider had to have such a

:40:01.:40:04.

powerful medical intervention. Yesterday we heard from Sir Bradley

:40:05.:40:09.

himself on the Andrew Marr show when he said that the drug was indeed for

:40:10.:40:16.

a genuine medical condition and not for performance enhancing purposes

:40:17.:40:22.

but that appearance raised more questions than answers for many

:40:23.:40:26.

people and today it was so Dave Brailsford, the boss of Team Sky,

:40:27.:40:33.

who was being questioned. He mounted a defence of his former rider and

:40:34.:40:37.

the Team Sky processes. He said they followed advice from the team doctor

:40:38.:40:42.

and from the specialist who examined Sir Bradley Wiggins. He may have

:40:43.:40:49.

hoped that his intervention could draw a line under the saga but I

:40:50.:40:53.

doubt that because there remained some issues not resolved because

:40:54.:40:57.

four example there was no real explanation as to why it serve a

:40:58.:41:03.

knee needed the drug in 2011, 2012 and 2013 but not in 2014. He didn't

:41:04.:41:08.

answer the questions about the inconsistencies in Wiggins' books,

:41:09.:41:15.

his autobiography, when he said that he had been healthy in 2012 and yet

:41:16.:41:20.

here he is, having this powerful medical intervention. And also the

:41:21.:41:24.

issue of whose idea this was in the first place. Was it the ear, nose

:41:25.:41:30.

and throat specialist who he saw or did the idea come from within Team

:41:31.:41:35.

Sky itself? That is something that can put two so Dave Brailsford today

:41:36.:41:44.

-- Daniel. Five or six years ago, I can't pinpoint it exactly but I know

:41:45.:41:50.

that I've seen the reports from the specialist which quite clearly state

:41:51.:41:56.

that Bradley is suffering from a condition, he quite clearly states

:41:57.:42:01.

that the medication he was taking was being used optimally and was

:42:02.:42:08.

ineffective and he recommended that Bradley was given this particular

:42:09.:42:12.

medication to alleviate his symptoms. When I read that, I've got

:42:13.:42:19.

no reason to question the validity, the decision-making of a

:42:20.:42:22.

professional of that stature. It goes to the authorities. It was

:42:23.:42:30.

applied for, conveniently, just before the grand tours in three

:42:31.:42:34.

consecutive years, so effectively it was preventative, right? He was

:42:35.:42:41.

taking it in case. Let's be clear, a lot of TUEs in sport for asthma

:42:42.:42:50.

sufferers, allergic reactions, etc, and the nature is that you don't

:42:51.:42:56.

wait until you are really suffering, you have a puffer beforehand. There

:42:57.:43:00.

are contradictions that have come out, for example talking to Andrew

:43:01.:43:08.

Marr he said he wanted different treatment because he was struggling

:43:09.:43:12.

in the build-up to the 2012 Tour de France but there is no reference to

:43:13.:43:15.

that in his book and he said that he was in great health, fine form. Do

:43:16.:43:21.

you remember any evidence of him suffering? I've known him for a long

:43:22.:43:25.

time and I know that he has asthma and has had problems with allergies

:43:26.:43:29.

and that has been with him for his whole career. Any regrets about him

:43:30.:43:35.

taking that medication at those times from you? With the information

:43:36.:43:42.

I had at the time, five or six years ago, at that moment in time, the way

:43:43.:43:47.

it was presented and the expert opinion and the entire process, I

:43:48.:43:52.

would make the same decision then. And with the information you have

:43:53.:43:57.

now? We definitely reflect as we move on and we have changed our

:43:58.:44:02.

policies, as have the authorities around TUEs, but that is a

:44:03.:44:06.

reflection of learning and good practice and everyone's attempts to

:44:07.:44:14.

be rigorous around the TUE process. So you have crossed the thin blue

:44:15.:44:20.

line, the cornerstone? Not at all. The one mantra, you can ask anybody

:44:21.:44:29.

who has been in the team, we absolutely, there is no crossing the

:44:30.:44:32.

line, we do not go over the line. Maybe there is a grey area where you

:44:33.:44:38.

are within the rules but perhaps you have contravened the spirit of them?

:44:39.:44:42.

Claiming to be whiter than white but are you in a grey area? That's a

:44:43.:44:47.

fair question in terms of the debate about that aspect and people can

:44:48.:44:53.

have opinions. We can trust Sky and their achievements? 100%,

:44:54.:44:59.

absolutely, 100%, that is why we created the team in the first place,

:45:00.:45:03.

don't forget. This sport has had a difficult time in the past and the

:45:04.:45:07.

whole reason and ambition about creating Team Sky, having worked in

:45:08.:45:14.

this velodrome for ten years and the time, seeing young guys going out

:45:15.:45:20.

into a world where you wanted professional teams, where you knew

:45:21.:45:23.

that they could go and never ever be pressured to cheat or take any kind

:45:24.:45:29.

of doping substances and that's what we tried to do. We created that team

:45:30.:45:35.

and environment and I can guarantee you that nobody has or will ever get

:45:36.:45:39.

put under pressure in this team to do anything outside of the rules.

:45:40.:45:44.

Sir David Brailsford talking to Dan Roan.

:45:45.:45:48.

We'll be back here in Liverpool tomorrow night with the latest

:45:49.:45:51.

on Labour, but that's it for tonight, on a day

:45:52.:45:53.

that the Shadow Chancellor pledged that under a Labour government

:45:54.:45:56.

there would be no more Philip Greens.

:45:57.:45:58.

We estimate there are quite few people with that name in the UK,

:45:59.:46:02.

so if you're one of them, we suggest you don't answer the door

:46:03.:46:05.

We will shake up how corporations work and how the economy is owned

:46:06.:46:15.

and managed, we will clamp down on the abuses of power at the very top.

:46:16.:46:19.

Under Labour, no more Philip Greens at all.

:46:20.:46:41.

Expect a rather drab start to your Tuesday morning, lot of cloud, thick

:46:42.:46:46.

enough

:46:47.:46:47.

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