27/09/2016 Newsnight


27/09/2016

Sam Allerdyce has quit as England manager, is English football a mess? Plus the centre right hits back at labour conference and the first US Presidental debate.


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Transcript


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at the helm of the England football team is over,

:00:07.:00:11.

courtesy of the Daily Telegraph's hidden cameras.

:00:12.:00:14.

We agreed that his position was untenable

:00:15.:00:16.

We didn't get to the point where we had to consider sacking him.

:00:17.:00:27.

We'll ask a former sports minister and a football agent

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spot the coded words being used to subtly attack Jeremy Corbyn.

:00:32.:00:40.

Yes, it was the day that the non-Corbynites took

:00:41.:00:56.

to the stage, they made clear they're here, and they aren't

:00:57.:00:59.

giving in to the left, or giving up on Labour.

:01:00.:01:01.

I don't know why we've been focusing on what was wrong with

:01:02.:01:04.

the Blair and Brown governments for the last six years.

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But trashing our record is not the way to enhance our brand.

:01:08.:01:09.

We'll ask the question that won't go away -

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Also tonight, head to head for the first time.

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Donald supported the invasion of Iraq. Wrong!

:01:22.:01:23.

Wrong! That is proved over and over again.

:01:24.:01:30.

He actually advocated for the actions we took.

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He sniffed, She smiled, but what was it that really mattered

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It was one of the shortest management stints

:01:36.:01:52.

up there with Brian Clough's 44-day tenure as manager of Leeds.

:01:53.:02:01.

of England'S National Football team 67 days ago, is toast.

:02:02.:02:06.

Allardyce, who was caught in a sting by the Daily Telegraph,

:02:07.:02:09.

that he'd made a significant error of judgment.

:02:10.:02:12.

He was recorded apparently giving advice on how to "get around" rules

:02:13.:02:15.

After Fifa's long and tortuous problems,

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is the probity of English football now at stake?

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Behind that golf buddy, Sam Allardyce leaving Wembley tonight

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after just 67 days and one match as England manager. Caught out by a

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newspaper's secret recording, summoned to a crisis meeting and

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then... They called it mutual consent. As a governing body we have

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two hold ourselves to the higher standards and Sam admitted he hadn't

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met those standards and moved on because the governing body must

:02:58.:03:02.

lead. If we are going to be opinionated about how people behave

:03:03.:03:07.

in football we have to be held up to high standards ourselves. A problem.

:03:08.:03:11.

We dealt with it quickly and fairly and we've been transparent and here

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we are talking about it. You've not seen this one before! This was

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Allardyce barely two months ago. Appointed England manager, the job

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he'd always dreamt of. Big Sam with big dreams and bristling with

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confidence. I think I fit the chair. I hope I do. I think I have

:03:35.:03:39.

experience to Basson and challenge the England team and myself and I

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think I'm tough enough to take it. So, bring it on, hey, lads? Just 25

:03:44.:03:52.

days later, he was secretly recorded in what he believed was a meeting

:03:53.:04:02.

with a far East development firm. He mocked his predecessor and

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criticised the England setup. But this was the damning bit. Offering

:04:07.:04:10.

guidance on how to avoid rules on players owned by organisations other

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than football club is. A practice that is banned all over the world.

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Here is the England manager saying dodging it is not a problem.

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He makes third-party ownership sound trivial technical but for many in

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world football it is seen a scourge. High profile figures within the

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game, even the English game, prior to the restriction of third-party

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ownership said it was akin to human to, a modern form of slavery. Money

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that was flowing out of the game should be kept within the football

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family. Those that support it say it is a business transaction, akin to a

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loan of a player and a crucial part of football clubs finances around

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the world. Tonight, a statement from Saladin eyes himself. -- Sam

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Allardyce. Allardyce was placed ?3 million a

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year as England manager. But he was also secretly filmed appearing to

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accept a ?400,000 deal to offer advice and make speeches. Tonight,

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he's being portrayed as a symbol of the malaise within England football.

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I didn't think England could stoop any lower from what happened in the

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summer to Iceland. Here we are, a laughing stock of world football.

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Have we got a problem with money in our game? We've got a problem. It's

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greed, isn't it? There is so much money in our game. People demand and

:06:17.:06:23.

ask for more. From dreams of the World Cup to a hasty exit, big Sam

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has gone but he's left English football with a great big mess.

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We can date this crisis from the Daily Telegraph of yesterday and now

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we have tomorrow's Daily Telegraph. More revelations about the conduct

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of Premier League managers. Allegations that eight former and

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current managers have been guilty of some kind of misconduct, taking

:06:56.:07:02.

inducements. It adds to a feeling of soul searching that is taking an

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English football. We saw a very rapid response from the FA, an

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organisation that in the past has dithered. That isn't a coincidence.

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Greg Clark is new to the job, barely a month into it, he paid a key role

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in saying that Sam Allardyce had to go.

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Joining me now to discuss Sam Allardyce's departure

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is football agent Sky Andrew, who has represented

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England internationals Sol Campbell and Jermain Defoe.

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And from Sheffield, the former Sports Minister, Richard Caborn.

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Richard, was this the right decision? Absolutely. No doubt. This

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goes to the core integrity of the sport. Third-party ownership was

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banned in this country and then by Uefa and the fat and now we have an

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England manager saying that we can get around it. What is important to

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note is that the discussion is not just about Sam Allardyce. According

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to the papers today there are a lot more implications for others. There

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ought to be an independent enquiry by the FA. I congratulate the FA for

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the action they have taken today but now they have got to move and set up

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some type of in the -- some type of independent enquiry. They have been

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saying that Fifa need to get their house in order and now the FA need

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to move as well. Sky, would you say that this is an error of judgment?

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The sad thing is it is another England manager gone for

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non-footballing reasons but it is an important reason. Third-party

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ownership was banned in 2008 by the FA and Fifa bandit last year.

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Players need to be able to make their own decisions and third-party

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ownership doesn't allow that. Looking at the Daily Telegraph

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tomorrow, eight managers past and present accused of taking transfer

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bungs, do you recognise this picture? The problem with that is,

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whenever we hear these accusations, no one is ever named. I don't think

:09:29.:09:32.

anyone can take it seriously until people are named. This leaves

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English football with a major problem. Trying to find a manager

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who has got absolutely crystal clear history and a clear way of going

:09:45.:09:52.

forward. The sad thing is with this story is at a human angle, here is a

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guy with a lifelong ambition to be England manager is gone overnight. I

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think the FA are very serious about the issue of third-party ownership.

:10:03.:10:06.

The public have got to understand that this is something that everyone

:10:07.:10:11.

across the world is trying to stop because players are literally owned

:10:12.:10:15.

by an individual or a third party on the economic rights. We have got Rio

:10:16.:10:21.

Ferdinand and Alan Shearer saying that England football is the

:10:22.:10:27.

laughing stock of world football. How did it get to this point? To

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some extent, it's true but let's be clear that this goes to the heart of

:10:34.:10:38.

football. The integrity of football. For summary to say this is not a

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footballing issue is naive or ducking the issue. It is about the

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integrity of football and how it is regulated and run. You talk about an

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independent enquiry, writing in the Telegraph tomorrow, Damian Collins,

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the acting chairman of the Commons culture, media and sport committee

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says that the FA seems incapable of rigorously enforcing the owners test

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to keep unsuitable people out of the game. The FA have dealt with the

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issue and in my opinion are absolutely right. What they ought to

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do now is say there are further allegations, this needs a wider

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enquiry but it needs to be independent and... So people have

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some faith in the regulation of English football. That is what is at

:11:33.:11:36.

stake. Therefore, the FA need to take that type of action to bring

:11:37.:11:41.

the credibility of the game back. We've got an interim manager. How

:11:42.:11:47.

quickly is it going to be to get a new manager in before the World Cup

:11:48.:11:51.

qualifiers? The FA need to act quickly. They have got to do their

:11:52.:11:56.

due diligence even better this time. Thank you very much indeed.

:11:57.:11:59.

Well, I'll be back later on the programme with our

:12:00.:12:01.

analysis of the first American Presidential debate.

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But let's join Evan now in Liverpool at Labour Party Conference.

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The Corbyn wing is on top here, but today, it was the turn

:12:10.:12:12.

of the non-Corbynites to stand their ground.

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Now this is a very strange time, no-one here wants to admit publicly

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that there is a divide in Labour at least as wide as the Mersey,

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but any unity is on the surface only, and sometimes not even that.

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Two big characters were on stage today: Tom Watson,

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legendary party fixer, deputy leader,

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one time right-hand man of Gordon Brown.

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Sadiq Khan, the London Mayor and the Labour man with the biggest

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personal mandate in the country, also up there.

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Both talked of needing to win elections or get into power.

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Such is the weirdness of the struggle in the party,

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were seen as designed to attack Jeremy Corbyn.

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Well, I'm with Jon Ashworth, Shadow Cabinet member,

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he'll tell us otherwise in a few minutes, but our political editor

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Nick Watt is an expert deciphering these kinds of events.

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It had seemed to be a relatively smooth journey, all wings of the

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party coming to terms with Jeremy Corbyn's victory but today the

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waters became distinctly choppy. Labour's deputy leader, who's

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remained diplomatic during the troubled summer finally gave vent to

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his frustration. I don't know why we've been focusing on what was

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wrong with the Blair and Brown governments for the last six years.

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Trashing our record is not the way to enhance our brand. We won't win

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elections like that. And we need to win elections! Jeremy Corbyn took

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some time to join in the applause. And for some in the audience,

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Watson's speech went too far. Jeremy, I don't think she got the

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unity memo. There's a certain poignancy that it is in Liverpool

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where the scene of the battles with the militant tendency in the 1980s

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that Tom Watson publicly confronted the central belief system of the

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Labour left. The scene is now set for an ongoing and historic

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showdown. You cannot play politics with

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people's jobs and services. The man who was in his sights popped up at

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the conference. I don't get Tom Watson. 12 months ago I was having a

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drink with him saying to him that I support him for deputy leader and I

:15:06.:15:09.

paid a few quid into his campaign. The way he's changed is

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unbelievable. Many people say he's always been a playwright, he's come

:15:14.:15:21.

back to his roots -- always been our Blairite. I view it with regret

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rather than anger. But Tom Watson's fans drew strength from his

:15:28.:15:33.

impassioned speech. This week, we are bringing those different

:15:34.:15:40.

divisions together again. Tom laid out a route map for us to do that,

:15:41.:15:47.

how we can make them relevant to the modern world. In so doing we can

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make ourselves popular. It is a brilliant speech and it has got me

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fired up. The leader of one of Britain's's trade unions thought it

:16:05.:16:07.

provided a reminder of the importance of heading for

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government. It is great having 500,000 members but there are 41

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million voters. We are with Jeremy but we are not a fan club. Today,

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Jeremy Corbyn will bring the conference to a close. Critics have

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a few days to decide whether they are on board ahead of a reshuffle

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next week. Well, someone said the war

:16:30.:16:32.

in the party is like herpes. Every time you think it may be

:16:33.:16:34.

settling down, Jon Ashworth is with me,

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not generally seen as a Corbyn supporter but is still

:16:38.:16:40.

in the Shadow Cabinet. Evening. Does Tom Watson want to be

:16:41.:16:51.

leader? I'm still trying to come to terms with that metaphor. Don't

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worry, it was inappropriate. I don't think that was a leadership bid. I

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think he is right to say we made an error by not defending the record of

:17:02.:17:06.

the past Labour government. We were not prepared to take on the Tory

:17:07.:17:13.

argument that somehow Labour completely wrecked the economy. I

:17:14.:17:19.

think he's right that we should be defending the good things they did.

:17:20.:17:23.

You had quite a bit of reminding the party they need to fight elections,

:17:24.:17:30.

every reform was because of Labour. Why do you need to remind your party

:17:31.:17:36.

that they need to win elections? Is anybody arguing against that? Of

:17:37.:17:42.

course not. We've been through a divisive summer and we've got to

:17:43.:17:46.

pull together and take on the Tories. Next year, the Prime

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Minister might go for a general election, who knows. But we

:17:53.:17:57.

certainly got county council elections, mayoral elections, we've

:17:58.:18:01.

got to win them and get campaigning. Are you meeting any resistance on

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that? It is very striking how much your wing of the party are

:18:08.:18:13.

emphasising, power, winning elections. I think Jeremy wants us

:18:14.:18:26.

to win elections. He is going to campaign against the return to

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grammar schools. It is a very tall order. Does it feel that the party

:18:32.:18:40.

is united at the moment? We've had a difficult summer. Those of us who

:18:41.:18:45.

think we need to pull together have got to unify. When we go back to

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Parliament we've got to be an effective front bench. I think it's

:18:51.:18:55.

a very weak Tory government that we can exploit, the lack of fiscal is,

:18:56.:19:02.

that they don't have a plan for Brexit, there's loads that we can be

:19:03.:19:14.

doing. He says tomorrow we need to end trench warfare. Everybody is

:19:15.:19:18.

saying exactly what you've just said, you don't need to probe very

:19:19.:19:23.

hard to find still an enormous amount of anger and jostling for

:19:24.:19:37.

position in his party. The people we are letting down by not unifying...

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For many people who have interpreted this request to think about winning

:19:50.:19:57.

elections are wrong to think it is a coded attack? I make the same speech

:19:58.:20:02.

every year where I say we need to get out and campaign. One of the

:20:03.:20:08.

things to reflect on his Labour is in power in certain places, London

:20:09.:20:13.

and Wales. There is a contrast between what you get when they are

:20:14.:20:17.

in power and the Labour that is framing and discussing things here.

:20:18.:20:25.

Isn't there? In what way? Today, we basically learned Jewish and fees

:20:26.:20:32.

are going to go up from ?4000 to ?9,000. The Welsh government are

:20:33.:20:42.

going to implement a plan to scrap the ?5,000 tuition fee grant so they

:20:43.:20:49.

will be paying the same tuition fees as England. That is a Welsh Labour

:20:50.:20:56.

Government, today, not even being discussed. That is the logic of

:20:57.:21:04.

devolution, that is the system we are in. But you are happy to see

:21:05.:21:10.

them go up? I would rather they did not pursue that policy. But whatever

:21:11.:21:17.

they've decided, I don't know enough about it. They've got the power to

:21:18.:21:24.

raise income tax. There is still time for them to change their minds.

:21:25.:21:30.

All the signs are tuition fees will go to ?9,000. Jeremy Corbyn has

:21:31.:21:35.

clearly given the impression. He said, I want to apologise on behalf

:21:36.:21:38.

of the Labour Party to the last generation of students. It is

:21:39.:21:43.

clearly a different position to the UK Labour Party but devolved parties

:21:44.:21:48.

can make those decisions. Does it tell you that when Labour gets into

:21:49.:21:54.

power it needs to be different from the Jeremy Corbyn party? Sadiq Khan

:21:55.:22:01.

implied that the case. When Labour gets into power, as they have done

:22:02.:22:05.

in Wales, and cities like Bristol and my own, Leicester, the Labour

:22:06.:22:12.

leaders put together a package of policies which have broad appeal to

:22:13.:22:19.

the electorate and that is what Jeremy and his team have to do. Put

:22:20.:22:23.

together a package that has broad appeal to mums and dads worried

:22:24.:22:27.

about childcare, appeals to people worried about the state of

:22:28.:22:30.

education, appeals to people who are so fed up that their wages have been

:22:31.:22:35.

stagnant for the last ten years. Actually, those policies are not

:22:36.:22:39.

crazy or socialist left-wing, they are common sense policies and we

:22:40.:22:48.

need to talk about them more. Just think about how the party has

:22:49.:22:55.

changed. One of the main ones is Sadiq Khan, who was not much known

:22:56.:22:59.

until he was selected for a candidacy. We caught him up today

:23:00.:23:06.

for a quick hello. He was basically repeating the message that defines

:23:07.:23:15.

the divide of this conference. Labour is so far from power. Are you

:23:16.:23:21.

a beacon of hope? I've been described as many things and I will

:23:22.:23:25.

take that. The key thing is we've got big elections across the

:23:26.:23:31.

country, we need to Windows. We need to Windows why? Those cities and

:23:32.:23:36.

regions need Labour representation. Speaking as the Mayor of London, the

:23:37.:23:41.

greatest prize is winning the general election. That is what

:23:42.:23:45.

Labour is all about. The strong point is, look at the Labour Party's

:23:46.:23:51.

history, whether it is the creation of the NHS, legal aid, the Human

:23:52.:23:55.

Rights Act, we did those by winning elections. Winning elections. Here

:23:56.:24:05.

with me is Ed Miliband's former adviser, Owen Jones from the

:24:06.:24:07.

Guardian and Matty Parish from the Times. Is the party united? I think

:24:08.:24:16.

people will try to unite but underneath it it will be hard.

:24:17.:24:20.

Nobody thinks we will come together and be some happy clappy family. But

:24:21.:24:26.

there is an acceptance even from moderates. You either step up and

:24:27.:24:34.

serve properly or you go to the backbenches and get on with what

:24:35.:24:38.

you're doing. But you can just carry on the constant sniping. There's a

:24:39.:24:43.

feeling you've got to accept the scale of the defeat. Let him succeed

:24:44.:24:56.

or fail on his own terms. I think Labour is more united than people

:24:57.:25:02.

give it credit for. Ideological age there are far greater divisions in

:25:03.:25:08.

the 1980s. These days, on all wings of the Labour Party there is quite a

:25:09.:25:10.

lot of consensus tax Justice, workers'

:25:11.:25:23.

rights, there's not actually, when it comes to it, a massive division.

:25:24.:25:31.

I think freedom of movement is going to be quite a divisive issue. It is

:25:32.:25:38.

not a left- right issue. You remind me that even the Tories agree with

:25:39.:25:40.

quite a lot of what you're seeing. Of course they are not united, Owen

:25:41.:25:57.

speaks to the victors and Jeremy Corbyn has one. Labour can find

:25:58.:26:02.

unity if the moderates accept defeat and I agree, in a sense, they have

:26:03.:26:07.

to accept that if the party is to be united. I don't think they should,

:26:08.:26:13.

but... The question is, you can have unity, slightly dead eyed unity

:26:14.:26:17.

where we get together and move away from the public, that is not great

:26:18.:26:26.

for the general outcome. Labour needs to be a broad church. The idea

:26:27.:26:30.

that the left of the party have conquered that is not borne out by

:26:31.:26:37.

the reality. If people can go through issues where there is a

:26:38.:26:43.

genuine ideological chasm, I don't think it's there. On the main issues

:26:44.:26:50.

it takes quite a lot. The remark that we no longer need to whisper

:26:51.:26:54.

the name of socialism, that is not a broad church. Do you know the only

:26:55.:27:03.

leadership candidate who used socialism? It was Tony Blair. I

:27:04.:27:11.

don't think a Shadow Chancellor talking about socialism at a Labour

:27:12.:27:16.

Party conference is a new thing. The truth is the policies. Not all of

:27:17.:27:20.

this is about policy, there is a cultural divide in the party. You've

:27:21.:27:24.

got to be honest about that. I think we've got to try and find some way

:27:25.:27:29.

of coming together, mainly because we are so exhausted by fighting.

:27:30.:27:38.

Everybody is spent. I agree with Matthew, the moderates, and I am a

:27:39.:27:44.

moderate, we've got to accept. I'm not an extremist! We've got to

:27:45.:27:51.

accept that we lost. We made a really stupid challenge and we lost

:27:52.:27:56.

badly. You guys won and you can do what you want. What happens to the

:27:57.:28:02.

moderates, I don't know what we call them? What do they do? Do they find

:28:03.:28:12.

another job? They give in, they run up the whitefly, some of them will

:28:13.:28:18.

toe the line, others, most, I suspect, slink away from politics

:28:19.:28:22.

and don't stand again in the next election. Quite a few will be afraid

:28:23.:28:28.

of being reselected. That is the only kind of Labour Unity now

:28:29.:28:35.

available. That is very sad for the political centre. I think all sides

:28:36.:28:52.

need to give and take. They need to accept they have the biggest

:28:53.:28:56.

Democratic party in Western Europe, but the leadership should oppose

:28:57.:28:59.

mandatory reselection so MPs don't feel that threat. Have a portion of

:29:00.:29:05.

the Shadow Cabinet elected by MPs. That is a compromise. You always

:29:06.:29:13.

say, focus on these internal divisions, but there is lots of

:29:14.:29:22.

scope for common ground. What I'm suggesting, which is basically that

:29:23.:29:25.

the Labour moderates should not give up without a fight, should not go

:29:26.:29:31.

for unity, should stand up for themselves, could be fatal to the

:29:32.:29:35.

Conservative Party in a period where I think the Conservative Party will

:29:36.:29:40.

be in all kinds of trouble. What you are suggesting, Labour should unite

:29:41.:29:46.

around the Jeremy Corbyn line is fine for the Conservatives. We need

:29:47.:29:53.

to be honest. If you've spent the summer doing tearful interviews

:29:54.:29:57.

about how bad Jeremy Corbyn was and you think he is not fit for purpose

:29:58.:30:01.

you cannot crawl back and say I've had a huge conversion.

:30:02.:30:09.

Can the non-Corbyn wing ever get the keys back to the vehicle? Some of

:30:10.:30:16.

them are trying to find half a million mainstream, moderate members

:30:17.:30:21.

will stop people don't join a party like that. We've not focused on

:30:22.:30:29.

policy issues. I think it should be about policy issues. If MPs think

:30:30.:30:35.

Labour is heading for a terrible defeat and they want the leadership

:30:36.:30:41.

to own it, then many members will say it is your fault. If the

:30:42.:30:45.

leadership is seen to give ground and give an inspiring alternative

:30:46.:30:50.

that resonates with people, then people who rebelled against

:30:51.:30:57.

Corbynista can say that they had big grievances but they have changed.

:30:58.:31:07.

Owen, you would support Corbyn but Mark two has to be different to Marc

:31:08.:31:11.

Warren. Are you seeing evidence that he has learned or picked up what he

:31:12.:31:21.

needed to do? He was re-elected three days ago but I think there are

:31:22.:31:28.

promising signs. There's no sign at all. They are rampant, they have

:31:29.:31:33.

one. They are talking as though they have one, growing, and good luck to

:31:34.:31:38.

them. Labour MPs don't understand that over the next three and a half

:31:39.:31:43.

years there is a huge opportunity for them. A Conservative Party who

:31:44.:31:48.

has been returned with a mandate that she can't possibly fulfil. They

:31:49.:31:55.

are ready to split. If Labour MPs in the House of Commons were to unite

:31:56.:31:57.

and oppose the government and in the lobbies, they have enormous

:31:58.:32:04.

potential power. Next week's story, the Tory party conference. The three

:32:05.:32:09.

of you are going to hang around and do a Facebook live thing. You can

:32:10.:32:14.

put your questions to them. We will go and get a drink and go to a quiet

:32:15.:32:21.

space. Go to our Facebook page and you will see as. Facebook live.

:32:22.:32:25.

Tomorrow, Jeremy Corbyn takes to the stage -

:32:26.:32:27.

Donald Trump began his own post-match analysis almost

:32:28.:32:35.

as soon as he stepped off the podium after last night's

:32:36.:32:38.

first Presidential Debate which ranged over trade,

:32:39.:32:40.

race, foreign policy, temperament - his.

:32:41.:32:41.

He claimed his microphone was defective,

:32:42.:32:44.

he insisted he didn't sniff his way through the debate,

:32:45.:32:46.

and that Hillary Clinton did not get under his skin.

:32:47.:32:48.

He said he's really eased up because he didn't want to hurt

:32:49.:32:51.

anyone's feelings, and he may hit her harder next time.

:32:52.:32:55.

With a background of tightening polls the consensus

:32:56.:32:57.

among the pundits was that Hillary Clinton edged it.

:32:58.:33:00.

So much for the opinion, here's Emily to take us

:33:01.:33:02.

First number of the night, 30, the minutes which matter when the

:33:03.:33:15.

audience is switched on. Trump dominates, he opens well, crawling

:33:16.:33:23.

Clinton on the trade deals. The worst trade deal ever signed in this

:33:24.:33:28.

country. He accuses Hillary Clinton of flip-flopping on the transpacific

:33:29.:33:34.

partnership deal, which she did. You know that if you did win, you would

:33:35.:33:39.

have proved that. That would almost be as bad as Nafta. The next number

:33:40.:33:53.

is zero. The amount of federal tax that Donald Trump admits to paying.

:33:54.:33:59.

Maybe he wouldn't want you to know that he has paid nothing in federal

:34:00.:34:04.

tax. The only times he has had two was when he had to turn his taxes

:34:05.:34:09.

over to federal authorities when he was trying to open a casino. That

:34:10.:34:19.

makes me smart. That's rate. Right. He did say he was smart not to pay

:34:20.:34:29.

tax. Trump offers to release his tax returns if she releases her lost

:34:30.:34:36.

e-mails. She concedes error. If I had to do it over again, I would do

:34:37.:34:41.

it differently. The night was always am elated by fact checking and lies.

:34:42.:34:51.

34 false claims for Donald Trump and four false claims for Hillary

:34:52.:34:56.

Clinton and to misleading for both. But Donald Trump was by far the most

:34:57.:35:02.

dishonest. But after half an hour the growing realisation that there

:35:03.:35:05.

is an extra player in this debate. John's knows. HE SNIFFS. We reckon

:35:06.:35:23.

about 15 sniffles. It spawned its own Twitter account. Who had what

:35:24.:35:30.

pundits might call possession of the argument? 17 interruptions by

:35:31.:35:37.

Clinton of Trump. And 51 by Trump of Clinton. There's nothing crazy about

:35:38.:35:42.

not letting our companies bring their money... It would be

:35:43.:35:48.

squandered too, believe me. And don't forget Lester Holt who gets

:35:49.:35:53.

interrupted as well. You supported the war in Iraq before the

:35:54.:36:01.

invasion,... I did not support the war in Iraq. That is mainstream

:36:02.:36:05.

media nonsense put out by her. I was against the war in Iraq. The record

:36:06.:36:12.

shows otherwise. The record does not. The record shows I am right.

:36:13.:36:18.

When Lester gives up, Hillary steps in. It is proved over and over

:36:19.:36:27.

again. How does it all end? Percentage who thought Clinton won?

:36:28.:36:37.

According to CNN, 62%. PPP gave 51%. A typical bounce of between two and

:36:38.:36:42.

four percentage points. No wonder she couldn't resist this smoked

:36:43.:36:47.

weed. By usual metrics she won this debate

:36:48.:36:54.

people watching the debate were a little more democratic than the

:36:55.:37:01.

electorate as a whole. People who chew them might not be the people

:37:02.:37:04.

trying to make up their minds and they may not be the same people who

:37:05.:37:09.

turn out as an election day. The only number that matters on election

:37:10.:37:14.

day is this one. The number of electoral college votes needed to

:37:15.:37:18.

win the presidency. Trump has proved that none of the usual rules of

:37:19.:37:23.

engagement apply to him. The debate is a party piece of entertainment

:37:24.:37:27.

and rather than political intent. Maybe no different.

:37:28.:37:30.

Let's talk now to Joe Klein, political columnist for Time

:37:31.:37:33.

magazine and the font of wisdom on Presidential politics

:37:34.:37:35.

Good evening to you. Good evening. The fact that many pundits said

:37:36.:37:49.

Hillary Clinton had done a better job kind of misses the point,

:37:50.:37:54.

doesn't it? I don't know. Let me start off with a couple of things. I

:37:55.:37:59.

want to issue an apology is on the part of the American people to the

:38:00.:38:04.

rest of the world for Donald Trump who really behaved like an infant

:38:05.:38:09.

last night. Secondly, having listened to the previous

:38:10.:38:13.

conversation about British politics, it's reassuring to see that you are

:38:14.:38:18.

as screwed up as we are. Donald Trump is like any other candidate.

:38:19.:38:23.

There is no real measurement. You look at debates in the past and you

:38:24.:38:28.

can't imagine a debate like this. He doesn't play by political rules. And

:38:29.:38:33.

people like him for that. Some people like him for that, other

:38:34.:38:41.

people are horrified. He has a firm 40% of the population at this point

:38:42.:38:47.

who see this contest as more reality TV than reality and he can be

:38:48.:38:51.

entertaining. He wasn't entertaining last night. He was imprudent,

:38:52.:39:00.

impertinent, he didn't make the arguments that he might have made.

:39:01.:39:10.

It was really incompetent. We heard 80 million watched the debate and

:39:11.:39:13.

for many of them it would have been their introduction to this campaign.

:39:14.:39:19.

Once the debates start, they pay attention. On the basis of that

:39:20.:39:25.

debate alone, you talk about him being all but crazy but actually a

:39:26.:39:29.

lot of people out there are looking at him and possibly liking some of

:39:30.:39:36.

the things he said about jobs, about trade and so forth. Well, that's

:39:37.:39:43.

true and it's too bad we didn't have a chance to get into that because

:39:44.:39:49.

his positions on those issues are nonsensical. He called the North

:39:50.:39:55.

American free act agreement passed by Bill Clinton in 1993 having been

:39:56.:40:02.

negotiated by George HW Bush, he called it the worst disaster in

:40:03.:40:07.

history but every balanced economist that I've read on this issue says

:40:08.:40:17.

that Nafta has been awash, providing some good things and bad things on

:40:18.:40:24.

both sides. His exaggerations play to the populist element in our

:40:25.:40:29.

country, as you have in your country, that doesn't really think

:40:30.:40:36.

beyond the reflective reaction that," those Mexicans are taking our

:40:37.:40:46.

jobs." He had a line, you have tried that for 30 years, the idea is he is

:40:47.:40:51.

doing something different. Is that his plan? Will he be pushing that

:40:52.:40:58.

until November? If he is competent to do so but he doesn't seem to be.

:40:59.:41:03.

He walked into that debate with a very strong argument on national

:41:04.:41:08.

security. It was that Hillary Clinton has supported some very

:41:09.:41:12.

disastrous actions on the part of the US government, she voted for the

:41:13.:41:18.

war in Iraq, she supported President Obama's expansion of the war in

:41:19.:41:23.

Afghanistan and she supported the Nato action in Libya. There are an

:41:24.:41:30.

awful lot of people who agree with him about this. He seems unable, the

:41:31.:41:36.

guy has the attention span of a fruit fly, he seems to be unable to

:41:37.:41:42.

press an argument and that was true on a number of different subjects

:41:43.:41:47.

last night. Which is why, you know, I think most pundits say he lost.

:41:48.:41:52.

However, most pundits have been wrong about Donald Trump as you

:41:53.:41:56.

pointed out from the very beginning. It's impossible to say yet what

:41:57.:41:59.

actually happened last night in terms of how the American people

:42:00.:42:03.

responded to it. Thank you very much. Lovely to hear from you.

:42:04.:42:10.

That's all we have time for. Until tomorrow night, a very good night.

:42:11.:42:14.

The weather is quiet out there now but we have some very strong winds

:42:15.:42:30.

that won't reach as until Thursday. Mostly the northern half of the UK.

:42:31.:42:35.

Here's a look at Wednesday. We have some cloud and rain on the way.

:42:36.:42:45.

Notice the north of Scotland, overcast, even further south, across

:42:46.:42:51.

the Lake District and Pennines, some light rain on and off. The best

:42:52.:42:56.

weather will be in Lincolnshire, East Anglia, certainly the

:42:57.:43:00.

south-east. Temperatures up to around 21 degrees. Not looking so

:43:01.:43:07.

bad along the south coast. Cornwall, Devon, here at times, there will

:43:08.:43:08.

With Evan Davis and Kirsty Wark. Sam Allerdyce has quit as England manager, is English football a mess? Plus the centre right hits back at labour conference and the first US Presidental debate.


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