29/09/2016 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

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The Inquiry into Historic Child Abuse is beset by yet more problems.


We reveal details about the breakdown of relations at the top.


Tonight, the lead QC has announced his resignation,


following the departure of his junior counsel.


The killing of British student Meredith Kercher.


A new documentary promises the definitive story of the case.


We interview the former boyfriend of Amanda Knox -


This interview is something that adds a point, how I fought to reach


the people and tell them, hey, I'm one of you.


I'm a normal guy who passed through a nightmare.


And in the aftershocks of the Presidential Debate,


TRUMP: She was a Miss Universe contestant and, ultimately,


a winner who they had a tremendously difficult time with


She gained a massive amount of weight and it was a real problem.


So rows over body-shaming sexism and poll movements.


There's plenty to chew over with our US election panel.


There is a huge problem at the top of the child abuse inquiry again.


The day after the lead QC Ben Emmerson was suspended -


he claimed he only found out on the internet - today we learned


that the junior counsel and human rights specialist


Elizabeth Procheska resigned on the 15th of this month.


And in the last few minutes, we have learned that Emmerson


We can reveal details of these events which suggest that,


no matter that Theresa May said today she was very confident


in the leadership of the inquiry under its fourth head,


Professor Alexis Jay, there has been


When Westminster orders a major enquiry, they rarely run completely


smoothly. They can take a very long time, often dealing with


controversial issues, and they can cost a fortune, but few have run


into as much trouble as the independent enquiry into child


sexual abuse. Arriving for work this morning, the current chair,


Professor Alexis Jay, the fourth that the enquiry has had in little


over two years. In the last 45 minutes, the news that Ben Emmerson,


the most senior lawyer on the enquiry, has resigned. In a


statement, Professor Alexis Jay said:


last night, Mr Emerson was suspended from the enquiry, prompted by


concerns over his leadership of the enquiry counsel and this afternoon


we learned that his deputy, Elizabeth Prochaska, and was in a


fortnight ago. There were suggestions today that Mrs


Prochaska's departure was entirely unrelated to last night's statement,


but we understand that not to be the case. Sources have told us there


were serious problems in the working relationship between Mrs Prochaska


and Ben Emmerson. They were the two most senior lawyers on the enquiry


into these problems prompted her sudden resignation and immediate


departure. For Professor Alexis Jay, the added headache that the largest


survivors group involved in the enquiry say they don't want her to


directly oversee their hearings because of her background as a


social worker. Today in enquiry statement insisted there was no


crisis. Others are very concerned. The


enquiry has issued a statement saying they are not in crisis but


frankly it simply isn't credible to claim this is properly functioning


when it is now on to its fourth chair, the lead counsel has been


suspended and apparently learned of that on the Internet, the second


most lawyer has resigned and it turns out resigned on the 15th of


September. This is a dysfunctional enquiry and we need urgent


reassurance by the chair that she is getting a grip on the situation.


When is the lead counsel going to, well, when they'll will be an


investigation into whatever he is supposed to have done? This is


beyond a pick-up. In the last month and a half, we have lost our chair.


We have now had the lead counsel suspended. This is not about hiccups


issues we can resolve. This is about examining why is enquiry is failing


us as survivors. Newsnight understands that Alexis Jay has


completed a review of the enquiry and she is considering running parts


of the 13 strands of the enquiry in parallel. Bitter experience has left


many child abuse survivors hugely sceptical of official attempts to


deliver justice. The enquiry was never likely to run completely


smoothly but the events of the last two days have been something nobody


expected. Earlier, before the news


about Ben Emmerson's resignation broke, I spoke to Andi Lavery


from the abuse survivors I began by asking him


for his reaction to Newsnight's revelations about the breakdown


in relations at the top There's been a breakdown


in relations if you're a survivor of the inquiry or if you are a core


participant, because we don't have any relationship


with the inquiry either, but I find it astonishing,


that this continues to happen. Tell me what your knowledge


was of Ben Emmerson. I was introduced to Ben Emmerson


by Theresa May back in one of the number of meetings I had


with her and the Home Office, who seem to be running the inquiry,


as well as the inquiry staff. Ben Emmerson from an early stage


sought to reassure and step in, but it really started back


in January of last year when the Home Affairs Committee


released derogatory e-mails about a number of survivors


and remarks by then enquiry staff. Mr Emmerson handled that and took it


over and sought to reassure ourselves and many behind us


to continue to engage So in fact since the beginning


Ben Emmerson has been a constant throughout the different


heads of the inquiry. Yes, and he's also showed


the utmost courtesy, professionalism and integrity


but not only that, his subject matter and his knowledge


of the nuances in what we face has been, I wouldn't say it was so much


breathtaking as really reassuring, and that's what we need,


because all we've ever seen is crass Tonight they say about


listening to us. It's absolutely galling,


the language they use. It's all PR and releasing


it to the media. What's changed since


we were children? Even the knowledge of his


suspension, what impact has that had an abuse survivors,


because I know that you are involved in a number


of different survivor groups? It's just like when we were kids


and he's been naughty It feels like just what happened


to us as children. Suspension - that's a school


word, you know? The guy's adversarial


and he's quite, you know, tough but, at the end of the day,


you can't have a wallflower in charge of this and he should


be in charge. You are clearly a supporter


of Ben Emmerson, because he has been there from the beginning


and he is deeply involved. Did you know Elizabeth


Prochaska as well? I've only been to one preliminary


hearing thus far, and I saw her at the preliminary hearing


with the Catholic Church back in July and the whole


atmosphere was a bit funny, but obviously that was seven days


before Justice Goddard went. Ben Emmerson e-mailed me


yesterday and he said, I'm worried about suicides


and people losing heart. And it seems to be, whether it's


towards the staff or the people taking part, brave survivors,


there is no duty of care. Finally, if you had something to say


to Theresa May tonight, Theresa May met myself and the other


survivors from across the country We have a demos, we represent


others, vulnerable adults not capable of articulating


what happened to them as children. Less of the sound bites,


meet with us, let's work this out. If they can do it in Australia,


they can do it here. There are good staff in the inquiry,


there are good ideas but there's a lot of rubbish and there's a lot


of people after the money. We need to sort this out and we need


to sort it out now and save lives, Thank you so much for


joining us tonight. If the Prime Minister


is still undecided as to the shape and terms of Brexit,


and whether to announce in her party conference speech the date


on which the UK will trigger Article 50 and start the whole thing,


her International Trade Secretary is steaming ahead anyway


with his vision. Brexit, according to Liam Fox,


will be a deal which will make our trade with the European Union


as least as free as it We'll be out of the single market


and outside the customs union. And the key thing, he wants Britain


to take a seat as an independent member of the World


Trade Organisation. So is this an agreed policy or just


Liam Fox shooting from the lip? This is pretty much what happened. It


Liam Fox reading a speech today and setting out his vision of what


Brexit will look like. We know that, when you leave the world trade


organisation as part of this relationship with the EU, you take


independent membership. That can mean staying in a single market.


Norway do that. In this case, I don't think it will. In his speech,


Liam Fox mentioned the WTO no fewer than eight times and he mentioned


the single market just once. I think what we got was not exactly a


barnstorming speech, Kirsty, but one with plenty of history lessons.


There was a bit of Adam Smith, a bit of the corn laws and a bit about the


value of free trade to the British economy and how he wanted us to be


right at the forefront of that, to look beyond Europe and embrace trade


with the rest of the world. I believe that the UK is in a prime


position to become a world leader in free trade because of the brave


and historic decision of the British people


to leave the European Union. Those who believe that


the referendum was a sign of Britain looking inwards have it


completely 100% wrong. It is the beginning of Britain


increasing its global engagement. But no specifics, no talk of


manufacturing or servicing is or the financial service sector, the most


viable part of the sector? Very few specifics. We had no dates, nothing


about whether it would be hard or soft. Lots of people reading into


this that it would be hard. Nothing at all about specific bits of the


economy. There are two bits that we should look towards, and one is the


automotive sector, which has been very loud in its lobbying and today,


almost as doctor fox was speaking, the chief executive of Renault-


Nissan, who make half a million cars a year in the UK, saying that he


would be looking for compensation if tariffs were imposed on his car.


Financial services is the other one, the biggest export. That is a sector


where a lot of people I have spoken to recently say they are confused,


they want some guidance, more than anything the City hates a lack of


information. That's what they have at the moment. If they were


expecting answers and clarity today, they didn't get it.


Joining me now is Gerard Lyons, co-chair of Economists for Brexit


and Rain Newton-Smith, Chief Economist from the CBI.


Good evening to both of you. First of all, Gerard, how did you


interpret Liam Fox's tone? I did was a good speech in the sense it was


about global Britain. It's been important since the referendum


result for the UK to convey to the rest of the world that we are


thinking globally. It isn't just about a good relationship with the


rest of the EU but about our ability to sell our goods and services


international beef. It talked about the WTO. It was short and -- short


on specifics but one part of the debate is about the need to have a


global British story. Soon do you think this is setting out the


ultimate position and negotiating backwards? I tend to call it a claim


against a messy Brexit. Liam Fox was talking along the lines of a clean


Brexit, that is having a clean break, having control of


sovereignty, migration, he touched on that, but something we can fall


back on, trading internationally, and then to do a bespoke deal with


the EU. The CBI's position pre-referendum was to remain, so you


are making the best of what you would see as a bad deal, but what if


the deal? To pick up on a few things, I don't know a single sector


of the UK economy, a single business that doesn't think that what this


might mean for their business. So I think it's something that touches on


all sectors. At this stage, sensible not to get wedded to any one


particular model. But I think we need to see a bit more clarity about


where we might end up and importantly what kind of


transitional arrangements we might have. That matters for passport in,


financial services and also... Not just about financial services but


Nissan and everybody else. Exactly, and that is a misconception.


Passport in matters... Explain how simple that is. If you are a


financial service that operates in the UK, pas sporting allows you to


operate in 27 other countries in the EU -- in the EU easily and without


tariffs. That matters for banks and also car manufacturers. When we buy


cars, we often lease them so we get financing alongside it.


These different sectors have to make long-term decisions and it is


impossible to do that, do you even have a short-term plan? We need to


be pragmatic and realistic and uncertainty is the big issue and it


is important at some stage to invoke Article 50 and not necessarily give


away all our secrets in terms of negotiation... But we need a road


map. There is a road map, to position the UK globally and to have


a sensible future relationship with the EU, in terms of passporting, I


have come from dinner in the city and the Chinese, it was about China


and the UK but the issue of passporting was not seen as


important but the issue of the city being innovative and developing


products... But with other sectors and businesses, where passporting,


depending on the model, is important and you must recognise is a


Broadchurch not just in the financial sector and you mentioned


the automobile sector. The actual tower that would be imposed on the


UK outside of the EU, according to the House of Commons library, was


2%-3%, the automobile sector is 10%, but Germany sells a phenomenal


number of cars to the UK. As Liam Fox pointed out, if we were outside


the EU we can cut all of our talents, which helps UK consumers so


the competitive balance changes and this is dynamic, this process. One


thing we must remember is we look through the course of economic


history when people have gone for the big bang approach, it has never


worked well for the wider society so wherever we end up we want to have,


we want to have a clear partnership between government and business at


every step of the way to really understand what the issues are. Are


you having these conversations with senior figures? We are starting to


but we need to see a step up in gear. You either former, your former


adviser, Boris Johnson, you can see there are very many different ways


to skin a cat. We are in an unfortunate position because the


previous Prime Minister and Chancellor did not do any


preparatory work but thankfully the Bank of England was prepared for all


eventualities so there is a catch-up process and we need to have a proper


discussion amongst not just business and government but different


sectors. You explain, Liam Fox seemed to say it was a


straightforward thing and at the moment we are as a block in the WTO.


We will sadly be an independent member but there is something beyond


that? The important message is if we have a clean Brexit, you control the


situation, if it is messy, you must depend on 27 other countries. Philip


Hammond said in May that there has to be access to the single market?


We must recognise we are one of 28 in that negotiating room and I think


the idea that we can just do things completely cleanly, this is going to


be long-running, I like to think of this as a marathon and not a sprint,


we need to have the best minds in the UK for business and from


government working through what this means. There is nothing clear about


years and years of negotiation. If you invoke Article 50 and decide...


Do you want Theresa May, in her speech next week, to give the date


for Article 50? As a human being? I am looking at this from an economic


perspective and minimising uncertainty is important, at the


same time, we need clarity. I would like to be announced next week but


at the same time, invoking this in the first half of next year and all


of Whitehall working to a deadline at the end of it to leave the EU so


against that we always have... With elections in France and Germany? All


of these things have to be combined but you can only control in life


what you control and we must have clarity of position ourselves. Thank


you both very much. The murder of British student


Meredith Kercher in Perugia in 2007 became the subject of a media


frenzy when her housemate Amanda Knox and her Italian


boyfriend were accused The case dragged on,


with convictions being appealed and then appealed again,


before the pair were eventually A new documentary on Netflix now


claims to tell the definitive story of the case,


and Secunder Kermani has been to southern Italy to meet one


of the key protagonists - Amanda Knox's ex-boyfriend,


Raffaele Sollecito. When I was with Amanda,


I was so happy. Raffaele Sollecito had only been


going out with Amanda Knox for a few days when everything


in their lives changed. Meredith Kercher, a British student


living in Perugia with Amanda Knox, The media ran wild with claims that


Knox had killed Kercher Knox and Sollecito spent nearly four


years in jail before Despite that, many in the public


still believe they were involved. And they are now the subjects


of a new feature-length documentary. I really need to reveal my image


before being revealed in my life. So even this interview is something


that adds a point of how I fought to reach the people and tell them,


hey, I'm one of you. I'm a normal guy who passed


through a nightmare. Now I am different because of


the nightmare I passed through. The other person who was in that


nightmare was Meredith Kercher. And her family have said on a number


of occasions that they are not happy with the amount of attention given


to you and Amanda Knox. Don't you think it is a little


insensitive to produce yet another People never understood


the truth about this case. So the victim is Meredith Kercher


but there are another two Sollecito and Knox were


initially convicted largely It was later ruled to


have been contaminated. But this kiss whilst police searched


the house became a symbol of what the media described


as their strange and suspicious They just repeated that kiss


hundreds of times to make it look It was a kiss of comfort


because she was telling me that she felt lost, she felt


with her family on the other side of the world and she didn't know


what to do. Your relationship with Amanda has


kind of been characterised in the media as her sometimes


as being this femme fatale, this very dominant character,


and you being more quiet and just Even after a few days,


I was very attached to her because I found her


good, very good to me. It would be really stupid


to think about that. You mean, to be loyal,


to have some misplaced loyalty to someone just


because you loved them? Another man, Rudy Guede,


was convicted of the murder. But some still claim others


were involved, too. Sollecito says legal fees


cost his family over $1 million and they still owe


hundreds of thousands. He is not ready to


let go of the past. They want to forget it,


the prosecution want to forget it, So I will bring it until the truth


about what they did, What is your relationship


with Amanda now? We don't talk too much


because we are very distant and we are hearing about our lives,


so there is nothing to say You had your entire life turned


upside down by something that What, if anything, has that


experience taught you? You only have power in your


decisions, you can make decisions each time and each decision can


bring you more powerful I don't think about


my future in my life I just think about here,


what I have to do next month. For me, whatever happens after next


month, even the world can be destroyed, but I didn't think


about next year or anything. Two days after the first


Presidential Debate, Donald Trump has apparently decided


not to wing the next one, but to prepare -


and, taking a leaf out of Jeremy Corbyn's approach to PMQs,


he is crowdsourcing ideas in his sparkily titled


Second Debate Preparation Survey, which has gone out to


millions of supporters. Hillary Clinton's performance


earned her a 4% fillip but, with two debates to go,


Trump has promised to go harder on her, perhaps


with more personal invective. I'm joined from Florida


by senior Trump adviser AJ Delgado and from New York


by Business Insider's Josh Barro. Good evening to both of you. We will


make America great again! We will fix it together! Good evening. Josh


Barro, during the debate when they form Miss Universe's name came up,


Donald Trump stumbled over that and there was an issue about that. What


impact did that have? This was a trap that Hillary Clinton set for


Donald Trump and was reporting in advance that among the things she


was doing was consulting with a team of psychologists to find ways of


needle Donald Trump and draw out self damaging reactions from him.


One thing about Donald Trump is when you criticise him he cannot let go


of the thing you criticised him for and he has to fight back, even if it


means fighting over an issue he would probably be better off not


fighting at all. This was Miss Universe 20 years ago, back when he


owned the pageant and she put on some weight as Miss Universe and


Donald Trump made a number of crude public comments about the weight


gain, Collingwood things like Miss Piggy and Miss housekeeping and she


brought -- brought television reporters to watch are working hard


to lose the weight and the next morning, instead of talking about


trade and making America great again, Donald Trump goes around on


television talking about how unfair it was to criticise him over this


and was terrible working with her when she was Miss Universe and it


was a problem she put on so much weight, it is a dumb argument to


have when running for president but Hillary Clinton knew that if she


brought this up he would not be able to let it go. And here he is on Fox.


Talking about this again. TRUMP: She was a Miss Universe


contestant and, ultimately, a winner who they had a tremendously


difficult time with She was the winner and she gained


a massive amount of weight. And we had a real problem


with her, so... You are one of the senior advisers,


was that about a lack of preparedness to do with this and


also an idea that actually would harm him if he repeated the idea


that she had gained a lot of weight? I must push back with something that


Josh said, he said Mr Trump had publicly made crude remarks calling


her Miss Piggy and that is actually untrue, that is simply an allegation


and she claims that Mr Trump used those remarks when referring to her


in private. Megan Kelly of Fox News Astro this week, are there any


witnesses that heard Mr Trump calling you Miss Piggy? And she put


an answer, there are no witnesses, this is purely an allegation by a


woman who has quite a questionable character, she apparently threatened


to kill a federal judge in Venezuela according to a judge their and was


accused of driving the getaway car... We cannot really deal with


that. I watched the clip on American television and she did not say


whether or not she was called Miss Piggy but what Megan Kelly asked was


about the eating disorder that she had and the subsequent weight gain.


You said, as a result of what he said to you,


you developed an eating disorder, bulimia and anorexia.


But you had said publicly at the time


that you suffered from both of those eating disorders prior to the Miss


No, no, never, never prior to the Miss


I never had any problem before Miss Universe.


Megan Kelly went on to show her the Washington Post in which she had


talked about having a eating disorder before the contest. What


about that strategy about, is there not a duty of care in the Clinton


campaign about bouncing her into the middle of the campaign? She has been


very willing to be out there and assertive and she has been talking


before this debate. I don't think that she has been drawn into this


unwillingly. Even AJ is getting drawn into the track of litigating


this story. There is no tape of him calling her Miss picky but there is


take of him saying things like, this is a person who really likes to eat.


There is a long record of Donald Trump talking in a crude way about


the physical appearance of women not just in the context of beauty


pageants, including one of his opponents in the Republican primary.


He said she had an ugly face. He said, look at that face. That was


the grimace she had on her face. The fight we are having to have is, did


because her eating disorder or did she already had it? We shouldn't be


litigating this. That's what I'm saying. It all goes to Donald


Trump's terrible character. UR advising Donald Trump. We know he


will perhaps have different tactics for the next debate and he might go


after Hillary Clinton ardour. Would you advise him to go after her


personal issues, getting her to talk about Bill Clinton's infidelities


and her supposed enabling of it? No, I do believe that we should focus on


the records. I think that's what the public wants. Speaking about his


record on women, this is somebody who elevated to top positions in his


company women, both as chief lawyer and cheap contract at Trump towers.


I would love to see them focus on his record on a number of issues,


and leave out the personal matters. How should Hillary play this? Next


one is a town hall. They don't know what is coming at them. She has to


make sure she doesn't look too prepared. I don't think she looks


too prepared in the first debate. I thought it went well for her to be


prepared. The Callum Hall format is favourable to Hillary Clinton. She


has experience of it. -- town hall format. The events where she does


best are those where she interacts directly with voters and be seen


listening to them. She started her political career with a listening


tour of upstate New York which was mocked and sub -- until it worked.


She had a perfect strategy in the first debate. It doesn't sound from


press reports like Donald Trump has decided to prepare an effective way


for this debate and I think he will come in angry about the way the


first debate was received, likely to try and litigate the items from the


first debate again and I think we will get my head over personal


things. He congratulated himself for not bringing up your Clinton's


marital infidelities, but when you say, look how great it was that I


didn't talk about it and then did he said was true then you sent talking


point out saying, how to discuss this, you don't get any credit for


not bringing up. Those talking points that were leaked were not


written by Mr Trump. It isn't him sending out talking points. They are


from the campaign, right? So Mr Trump doesn't control his campaign?


He isn't asking us personally to go after Hillary Clinton and her


husband's infidelities, no. Come on! This idea that the actions of one's


campaign staff doesn't count as actions under half of one. That is a


new one. Thank you. Big Brother Is Watching


You entered the lexicon after the publication


of Nineteen Eighty-Four, for state surveillance,


and it was about one-way traffic. But would it be more


accurate to change that now We're all at it - cyclists,


snooping parents, police officers. Here's our man in a headcam,


our technology editor When CCTV made an willing reality


stars of us all, the power was all in the hands of the people who owned


the cameras. Shops, councils, government and the police.


Technology created a panopticon for us all to live in, at least in


public. But, as Jeremy Bentham, the design of the panopticon prison,


where the inmates are in sight of God at all times, new, it isn't


necessary for anybody to be watching to have an effect. -- insight of


guards. In Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four,


Big Brother controlled minds with the mere possibility


of being watched. "You had to live - did live,


from habit that became instinct - in the assumption that every sound


you made was overheard, and, except in darkness,


every movement scrutinised." As the French philosopher


Michel Foucault noted... "Surveillance is permanent


in its effects, even if it is However, the evidence of now decades


worth of mass surveillance doesn't appear to back up this theory. We


presumed some type of magic would happen. If you put magic -- cameras


on posts that crime would disappear. It didn't happen and we have cameras


everywhere that cost vast amounts of money and we don't see the necessary


drop in crime. Two technologies, though, that ended the monopoly of


surveillance. The first, the smartphone, putting the power to


record reality in more or less every personal pocket. The other is social


media, allowing that footage to go global, even without convincing


traditional broadcasters it is worth airing. One academic has called this


not surveillance, meaning from above, but sousveillance, from


below. We have seen lots of bees from police shootings in the US,


through to unjustifiably heavy-handed reactions from police.


Without the footage, they would never have been believed. Just last


week, a London driver recorded this. Get out of the car! He says it was a


case of mistaken identity. The officer involved is now on


restricted duties. Look what you are doing to my car. I bought a license


and insurance. The police have responded with more surveillance,


body cameras, recording incidents from their point of view. They have


the added twist of a screen at the front so the person being filmed by


the officer can see their own image, so now everyone's behaviour is being


changed, the public filming the police and the police filming the


public. According to a study published today, body cameras have


reduced complaints against the police by 93%, but cameras also


allow members of the public to become crime-fighters. Some people


call me the equaliser. A vigilante cyclist doing what he says the


police won't. I have called road rage is, mobile phone users... .Txt


and drive when you have a kid in your car.


It is the illusion that somehow we're doing something by merely


recording and then hoping to post that on a social network


A case of pursuing justice against an abuse by an authority,


And the simple act of the recording is merely the first step.


And again, what we need are the systems within


We need the oversight systems to make sure that


We are rapidly moving towards a world where everyone is recording


everything all the time. Does it make for a more safe or even more


polite society or if it just another source of stress and annoyance?


That's almost it for tonight, but before we go...


Election debates are usually fertile territory for budding


and the Presidential Debates in the US this week were no exception.


We leave you tonight with the brainchild of the YouTube


Instantly forgettable, or a new dance craze for the nation?


It's the Hillary Clinton Shimmy Song.


# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, HRC.


# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, HRC.


# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, Hillary.


# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, HRC.


# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, Hillary.


# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, HRC.


# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, Hillary.


# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, HRC.


# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, Hillary.


# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy.


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