29/09/2016 Newsnight


29/09/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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The Inquiry into Historic Child Abuse is beset by yet more problems.

:00:00.:00:07.

We reveal details about the breakdown of relations at the top.

:00:08.:00:10.

Tonight, the lead QC has announced his resignation,

:00:11.:00:12.

following the departure of his junior counsel.

:00:13.:00:18.

The killing of British student Meredith Kercher.

:00:19.:00:21.

A new documentary promises the definitive story of the case.

:00:22.:00:24.

We interview the former boyfriend of Amanda Knox -

:00:25.:00:26.

This interview is something that adds a point, how I fought to reach

:00:27.:00:36.

the people and tell them, hey, I'm one of you.

:00:37.:00:40.

I'm a normal guy who passed through a nightmare.

:00:41.:00:46.

And in the aftershocks of the Presidential Debate,

:00:47.:00:56.

TRUMP: She was a Miss Universe contestant and, ultimately,

:00:57.:01:02.

a winner who they had a tremendously difficult time with

:01:03.:01:04.

She gained a massive amount of weight and it was a real problem.

:01:05.:01:12.

So rows over body-shaming sexism and poll movements.

:01:13.:01:14.

There's plenty to chew over with our US election panel.

:01:15.:01:27.

There is a huge problem at the top of the child abuse inquiry again.

:01:28.:01:33.

The day after the lead QC Ben Emmerson was suspended -

:01:34.:01:38.

he claimed he only found out on the internet - today we learned

:01:39.:01:41.

that the junior counsel and human rights specialist

:01:42.:01:43.

Elizabeth Procheska resigned on the 15th of this month.

:01:44.:01:46.

And in the last few minutes, we have learned that Emmerson

:01:47.:01:48.

We can reveal details of these events which suggest that,

:01:49.:01:53.

no matter that Theresa May said today she was very confident

:01:54.:01:56.

in the leadership of the inquiry under its fourth head,

:01:57.:01:58.

Professor Alexis Jay, there has been

:01:59.:02:01.

When Westminster orders a major enquiry, they rarely run completely

:02:02.:02:18.

smoothly. They can take a very long time, often dealing with

:02:19.:02:20.

controversial issues, and they can cost a fortune, but few have run

:02:21.:02:26.

into as much trouble as the independent enquiry into child

:02:27.:02:31.

sexual abuse. Arriving for work this morning, the current chair,

:02:32.:02:34.

Professor Alexis Jay, the fourth that the enquiry has had in little

:02:35.:02:39.

over two years. In the last 45 minutes, the news that Ben Emmerson,

:02:40.:02:43.

the most senior lawyer on the enquiry, has resigned. In a

:02:44.:02:47.

statement, Professor Alexis Jay said:

:02:48.:03:19.

last night, Mr Emerson was suspended from the enquiry, prompted by

:03:20.:03:28.

concerns over his leadership of the enquiry counsel and this afternoon

:03:29.:03:33.

we learned that his deputy, Elizabeth Prochaska, and was in a

:03:34.:03:35.

fortnight ago. There were suggestions today that Mrs

:03:36.:03:42.

Prochaska's departure was entirely unrelated to last night's statement,

:03:43.:03:45.

but we understand that not to be the case. Sources have told us there

:03:46.:03:51.

were serious problems in the working relationship between Mrs Prochaska

:03:52.:03:54.

and Ben Emmerson. They were the two most senior lawyers on the enquiry

:03:55.:03:59.

into these problems prompted her sudden resignation and immediate

:04:00.:04:02.

departure. For Professor Alexis Jay, the added headache that the largest

:04:03.:04:08.

survivors group involved in the enquiry say they don't want her to

:04:09.:04:12.

directly oversee their hearings because of her background as a

:04:13.:04:15.

social worker. Today in enquiry statement insisted there was no

:04:16.:04:16.

crisis. Others are very concerned. The

:04:17.:04:42.

enquiry has issued a statement saying they are not in crisis but

:04:43.:04:46.

frankly it simply isn't credible to claim this is properly functioning

:04:47.:04:51.

when it is now on to its fourth chair, the lead counsel has been

:04:52.:04:55.

suspended and apparently learned of that on the Internet, the second

:04:56.:04:59.

most lawyer has resigned and it turns out resigned on the 15th of

:05:00.:05:04.

September. This is a dysfunctional enquiry and we need urgent

:05:05.:05:08.

reassurance by the chair that she is getting a grip on the situation.

:05:09.:05:13.

When is the lead counsel going to, well, when they'll will be an

:05:14.:05:16.

investigation into whatever he is supposed to have done? This is

:05:17.:05:23.

beyond a pick-up. In the last month and a half, we have lost our chair.

:05:24.:05:26.

We have now had the lead counsel suspended. This is not about hiccups

:05:27.:05:35.

issues we can resolve. This is about examining why is enquiry is failing

:05:36.:05:40.

us as survivors. Newsnight understands that Alexis Jay has

:05:41.:05:43.

completed a review of the enquiry and she is considering running parts

:05:44.:05:49.

of the 13 strands of the enquiry in parallel. Bitter experience has left

:05:50.:05:55.

many child abuse survivors hugely sceptical of official attempts to

:05:56.:05:58.

deliver justice. The enquiry was never likely to run completely

:05:59.:06:02.

smoothly but the events of the last two days have been something nobody

:06:03.:06:03.

expected. Earlier, before the news

:06:04.:06:05.

about Ben Emmerson's resignation broke, I spoke to Andi Lavery

:06:06.:06:07.

from the abuse survivors I began by asking him

:06:08.:06:09.

for his reaction to Newsnight's revelations about the breakdown

:06:10.:06:14.

in relations at the top There's been a breakdown

:06:15.:06:16.

in relations if you're a survivor of the inquiry or if you are a core

:06:17.:06:22.

participant, because we don't have any relationship

:06:23.:06:25.

with the inquiry either, but I find it astonishing,

:06:26.:06:27.

that this continues to happen. Tell me what your knowledge

:06:28.:06:30.

was of Ben Emmerson. I was introduced to Ben Emmerson

:06:31.:06:36.

by Theresa May back in one of the number of meetings I had

:06:37.:06:39.

with her and the Home Office, who seem to be running the inquiry,

:06:40.:06:43.

as well as the inquiry staff. Ben Emmerson from an early stage

:06:44.:06:46.

sought to reassure and step in, but it really started back

:06:47.:06:50.

in January of last year when the Home Affairs Committee

:06:51.:06:53.

released derogatory e-mails about a number of survivors

:06:54.:06:57.

and remarks by then enquiry staff. Mr Emmerson handled that and took it

:06:58.:07:02.

over and sought to reassure ourselves and many behind us

:07:03.:07:06.

to continue to engage So in fact since the beginning

:07:07.:07:09.

Ben Emmerson has been a constant throughout the different

:07:10.:07:14.

heads of the inquiry. Yes, and he's also showed

:07:15.:07:17.

the utmost courtesy, professionalism and integrity

:07:18.:07:20.

but not only that, his subject matter and his knowledge

:07:21.:07:23.

of the nuances in what we face has been, I wouldn't say it was so much

:07:24.:07:30.

breathtaking as really reassuring, and that's what we need,

:07:31.:07:35.

because all we've ever seen is crass Tonight they say about

:07:36.:07:37.

listening to us. It's absolutely galling,

:07:38.:07:43.

the language they use. It's all PR and releasing

:07:44.:07:48.

it to the media. What's changed since

:07:49.:07:50.

we were children? Even the knowledge of his

:07:51.:07:55.

suspension, what impact has that had an abuse survivors,

:07:56.:07:57.

because I know that you are involved in a number

:07:58.:08:01.

of different survivor groups? It's just like when we were kids

:08:02.:08:04.

and he's been naughty It feels like just what happened

:08:05.:08:07.

to us as children. Suspension - that's a school

:08:08.:08:10.

word, you know? The guy's adversarial

:08:11.:08:13.

and he's quite, you know, tough but, at the end of the day,

:08:14.:08:24.

you can't have a wallflower in charge of this and he should

:08:25.:08:27.

be in charge. You are clearly a supporter

:08:28.:08:29.

of Ben Emmerson, because he has been there from the beginning

:08:30.:08:37.

and he is deeply involved. Did you know Elizabeth

:08:38.:08:41.

Prochaska as well? I've only been to one preliminary

:08:42.:08:44.

hearing thus far, and I saw her at the preliminary hearing

:08:45.:08:49.

with the Catholic Church back in July and the whole

:08:50.:08:54.

atmosphere was a bit funny, but obviously that was seven days

:08:55.:08:58.

before Justice Goddard went. Ben Emmerson e-mailed me

:08:59.:09:01.

yesterday and he said, I'm worried about suicides

:09:02.:09:08.

and people losing heart. And it seems to be, whether it's

:09:09.:09:18.

towards the staff or the people taking part, brave survivors,

:09:19.:09:22.

there is no duty of care. Finally, if you had something to say

:09:23.:09:25.

to Theresa May tonight, Theresa May met myself and the other

:09:26.:09:33.

survivors from across the country We have a demos, we represent

:09:34.:09:38.

others, vulnerable adults not capable of articulating

:09:39.:09:47.

what happened to them as children. Less of the sound bites,

:09:48.:09:51.

meet with us, let's work this out. If they can do it in Australia,

:09:52.:09:56.

they can do it here. There are good staff in the inquiry,

:09:57.:09:59.

there are good ideas but there's a lot of rubbish and there's a lot

:10:00.:10:02.

of people after the money. We need to sort this out and we need

:10:03.:10:05.

to sort it out now and save lives, Thank you so much for

:10:06.:10:09.

joining us tonight. If the Prime Minister

:10:10.:10:13.

is still undecided as to the shape and terms of Brexit,

:10:14.:10:19.

and whether to announce in her party conference speech the date

:10:20.:10:22.

on which the UK will trigger Article 50 and start the whole thing,

:10:23.:10:24.

her International Trade Secretary is steaming ahead anyway

:10:25.:10:27.

with his vision. Brexit, according to Liam Fox,

:10:28.:10:30.

will be a deal which will make our trade with the European Union

:10:31.:10:33.

as least as free as it We'll be out of the single market

:10:34.:10:36.

and outside the customs union. And the key thing, he wants Britain

:10:37.:10:40.

to take a seat as an independent member of the World

:10:41.:10:44.

Trade Organisation. So is this an agreed policy or just

:10:45.:11:01.

Liam Fox shooting from the lip? This is pretty much what happened. It

:11:02.:11:04.

Liam Fox reading a speech today and setting out his vision of what

:11:05.:11:11.

Brexit will look like. We know that, when you leave the world trade

:11:12.:11:15.

organisation as part of this relationship with the EU, you take

:11:16.:11:19.

independent membership. That can mean staying in a single market.

:11:20.:11:24.

Norway do that. In this case, I don't think it will. In his speech,

:11:25.:11:29.

Liam Fox mentioned the WTO no fewer than eight times and he mentioned

:11:30.:11:34.

the single market just once. I think what we got was not exactly a

:11:35.:11:39.

barnstorming speech, Kirsty, but one with plenty of history lessons.

:11:40.:11:43.

There was a bit of Adam Smith, a bit of the corn laws and a bit about the

:11:44.:11:48.

value of free trade to the British economy and how he wanted us to be

:11:49.:11:51.

right at the forefront of that, to look beyond Europe and embrace trade

:11:52.:11:54.

with the rest of the world. I believe that the UK is in a prime

:11:55.:11:56.

position to become a world leader in free trade because of the brave

:11:57.:11:59.

and historic decision of the British people

:12:00.:12:02.

to leave the European Union. Those who believe that

:12:03.:12:04.

the referendum was a sign of Britain looking inwards have it

:12:05.:12:09.

completely 100% wrong. It is the beginning of Britain

:12:10.:12:13.

increasing its global engagement. But no specifics, no talk of

:12:14.:12:32.

manufacturing or servicing is or the financial service sector, the most

:12:33.:12:37.

viable part of the sector? Very few specifics. We had no dates, nothing

:12:38.:12:41.

about whether it would be hard or soft. Lots of people reading into

:12:42.:12:45.

this that it would be hard. Nothing at all about specific bits of the

:12:46.:12:50.

economy. There are two bits that we should look towards, and one is the

:12:51.:12:54.

automotive sector, which has been very loud in its lobbying and today,

:12:55.:13:00.

almost as doctor fox was speaking, the chief executive of Renault-

:13:01.:13:03.

Nissan, who make half a million cars a year in the UK, saying that he

:13:04.:13:08.

would be looking for compensation if tariffs were imposed on his car.

:13:09.:13:13.

Financial services is the other one, the biggest export. That is a sector

:13:14.:13:17.

where a lot of people I have spoken to recently say they are confused,

:13:18.:13:22.

they want some guidance, more than anything the City hates a lack of

:13:23.:13:26.

information. That's what they have at the moment. If they were

:13:27.:13:30.

expecting answers and clarity today, they didn't get it.

:13:31.:13:33.

Joining me now is Gerard Lyons, co-chair of Economists for Brexit

:13:34.:13:35.

and Rain Newton-Smith, Chief Economist from the CBI.

:13:36.:13:40.

Good evening to both of you. First of all, Gerard, how did you

:13:41.:13:50.

interpret Liam Fox's tone? I did was a good speech in the sense it was

:13:51.:13:55.

about global Britain. It's been important since the referendum

:13:56.:13:58.

result for the UK to convey to the rest of the world that we are

:13:59.:14:02.

thinking globally. It isn't just about a good relationship with the

:14:03.:14:06.

rest of the EU but about our ability to sell our goods and services

:14:07.:14:11.

international beef. It talked about the WTO. It was short and -- short

:14:12.:14:16.

on specifics but one part of the debate is about the need to have a

:14:17.:14:21.

global British story. Soon do you think this is setting out the

:14:22.:14:26.

ultimate position and negotiating backwards? I tend to call it a claim

:14:27.:14:31.

against a messy Brexit. Liam Fox was talking along the lines of a clean

:14:32.:14:35.

Brexit, that is having a clean break, having control of

:14:36.:14:40.

sovereignty, migration, he touched on that, but something we can fall

:14:41.:14:44.

back on, trading internationally, and then to do a bespoke deal with

:14:45.:14:50.

the EU. The CBI's position pre-referendum was to remain, so you

:14:51.:14:54.

are making the best of what you would see as a bad deal, but what if

:14:55.:15:00.

the deal? To pick up on a few things, I don't know a single sector

:15:01.:15:05.

of the UK economy, a single business that doesn't think that what this

:15:06.:15:10.

might mean for their business. So I think it's something that touches on

:15:11.:15:15.

all sectors. At this stage, sensible not to get wedded to any one

:15:16.:15:18.

particular model. But I think we need to see a bit more clarity about

:15:19.:15:23.

where we might end up and importantly what kind of

:15:24.:15:26.

transitional arrangements we might have. That matters for passport in,

:15:27.:15:33.

financial services and also... Not just about financial services but

:15:34.:15:38.

Nissan and everybody else. Exactly, and that is a misconception.

:15:39.:15:43.

Passport in matters... Explain how simple that is. If you are a

:15:44.:15:49.

financial service that operates in the UK, pas sporting allows you to

:15:50.:15:54.

operate in 27 other countries in the EU -- in the EU easily and without

:15:55.:15:59.

tariffs. That matters for banks and also car manufacturers. When we buy

:16:00.:16:04.

cars, we often lease them so we get financing alongside it.

:16:05.:16:09.

These different sectors have to make long-term decisions and it is

:16:10.:16:16.

impossible to do that, do you even have a short-term plan? We need to

:16:17.:16:21.

be pragmatic and realistic and uncertainty is the big issue and it

:16:22.:16:26.

is important at some stage to invoke Article 50 and not necessarily give

:16:27.:16:31.

away all our secrets in terms of negotiation... But we need a road

:16:32.:16:36.

map. There is a road map, to position the UK globally and to have

:16:37.:16:39.

a sensible future relationship with the EU, in terms of passporting, I

:16:40.:16:44.

have come from dinner in the city and the Chinese, it was about China

:16:45.:16:48.

and the UK but the issue of passporting was not seen as

:16:49.:16:51.

important but the issue of the city being innovative and developing

:16:52.:16:56.

products... But with other sectors and businesses, where passporting,

:16:57.:17:04.

depending on the model, is important and you must recognise is a

:17:05.:17:06.

Broadchurch not just in the financial sector and you mentioned

:17:07.:17:08.

the automobile sector. The actual tower that would be imposed on the

:17:09.:17:11.

UK outside of the EU, according to the House of Commons library, was

:17:12.:17:19.

2%-3%, the automobile sector is 10%, but Germany sells a phenomenal

:17:20.:17:23.

number of cars to the UK. As Liam Fox pointed out, if we were outside

:17:24.:17:27.

the EU we can cut all of our talents, which helps UK consumers so

:17:28.:17:33.

the competitive balance changes and this is dynamic, this process. One

:17:34.:17:37.

thing we must remember is we look through the course of economic

:17:38.:17:40.

history when people have gone for the big bang approach, it has never

:17:41.:17:45.

worked well for the wider society so wherever we end up we want to have,

:17:46.:17:50.

we want to have a clear partnership between government and business at

:17:51.:17:53.

every step of the way to really understand what the issues are. Are

:17:54.:17:57.

you having these conversations with senior figures? We are starting to

:17:58.:18:03.

but we need to see a step up in gear. You either former, your former

:18:04.:18:08.

adviser, Boris Johnson, you can see there are very many different ways

:18:09.:18:15.

to skin a cat. We are in an unfortunate position because the

:18:16.:18:17.

previous Prime Minister and Chancellor did not do any

:18:18.:18:20.

preparatory work but thankfully the Bank of England was prepared for all

:18:21.:18:24.

eventualities so there is a catch-up process and we need to have a proper

:18:25.:18:28.

discussion amongst not just business and government but different

:18:29.:18:32.

sectors. You explain, Liam Fox seemed to say it was a

:18:33.:18:36.

straightforward thing and at the moment we are as a block in the WTO.

:18:37.:18:41.

We will sadly be an independent member but there is something beyond

:18:42.:18:46.

that? The important message is if we have a clean Brexit, you control the

:18:47.:18:51.

situation, if it is messy, you must depend on 27 other countries. Philip

:18:52.:18:55.

Hammond said in May that there has to be access to the single market?

:18:56.:19:01.

We must recognise we are one of 28 in that negotiating room and I think

:19:02.:19:06.

the idea that we can just do things completely cleanly, this is going to

:19:07.:19:10.

be long-running, I like to think of this as a marathon and not a sprint,

:19:11.:19:15.

we need to have the best minds in the UK for business and from

:19:16.:19:19.

government working through what this means. There is nothing clear about

:19:20.:19:25.

years and years of negotiation. If you invoke Article 50 and decide...

:19:26.:19:33.

Do you want Theresa May, in her speech next week, to give the date

:19:34.:19:38.

for Article 50? As a human being? I am looking at this from an economic

:19:39.:19:42.

perspective and minimising uncertainty is important, at the

:19:43.:19:47.

same time, we need clarity. I would like to be announced next week but

:19:48.:19:51.

at the same time, invoking this in the first half of next year and all

:19:52.:19:55.

of Whitehall working to a deadline at the end of it to leave the EU so

:19:56.:20:01.

against that we always have... With elections in France and Germany? All

:20:02.:20:05.

of these things have to be combined but you can only control in life

:20:06.:20:09.

what you control and we must have clarity of position ourselves. Thank

:20:10.:20:11.

you both very much. The murder of British student

:20:12.:20:15.

Meredith Kercher in Perugia in 2007 became the subject of a media

:20:16.:20:18.

frenzy when her housemate Amanda Knox and her Italian

:20:19.:20:20.

boyfriend were accused The case dragged on,

:20:21.:20:22.

with convictions being appealed and then appealed again,

:20:23.:20:25.

before the pair were eventually A new documentary on Netflix now

:20:26.:20:27.

claims to tell the definitive story of the case,

:20:28.:20:31.

and Secunder Kermani has been to southern Italy to meet one

:20:32.:20:35.

of the key protagonists - Amanda Knox's ex-boyfriend,

:20:36.:20:37.

Raffaele Sollecito. When I was with Amanda,

:20:38.:20:42.

I was so happy. Raffaele Sollecito had only been

:20:43.:20:46.

going out with Amanda Knox for a few days when everything

:20:47.:20:49.

in their lives changed. Meredith Kercher, a British student

:20:50.:20:54.

living in Perugia with Amanda Knox, The media ran wild with claims that

:20:55.:20:57.

Knox had killed Kercher Knox and Sollecito spent nearly four

:20:58.:21:04.

years in jail before Despite that, many in the public

:21:05.:21:10.

still believe they were involved. And they are now the subjects

:21:11.:21:20.

of a new feature-length documentary. I really need to reveal my image

:21:21.:21:24.

before being revealed in my life. So even this interview is something

:21:25.:21:31.

that adds a point of how I fought to reach the people and tell them,

:21:32.:21:36.

hey, I'm one of you. I'm a normal guy who passed

:21:37.:21:40.

through a nightmare. Now I am different because of

:21:41.:21:45.

the nightmare I passed through. The other person who was in that

:21:46.:21:49.

nightmare was Meredith Kercher. And her family have said on a number

:21:50.:21:54.

of occasions that they are not happy with the amount of attention given

:21:55.:21:57.

to you and Amanda Knox. Don't you think it is a little

:21:58.:22:01.

insensitive to produce yet another People never understood

:22:02.:22:04.

the truth about this case. So the victim is Meredith Kercher

:22:05.:22:11.

but there are another two Sollecito and Knox were

:22:12.:22:17.

initially convicted largely It was later ruled to

:22:18.:22:23.

have been contaminated. But this kiss whilst police searched

:22:24.:22:29.

the house became a symbol of what the media described

:22:30.:22:33.

as their strange and suspicious They just repeated that kiss

:22:34.:22:36.

hundreds of times to make it look It was a kiss of comfort

:22:37.:22:42.

because she was telling me that she felt lost, she felt

:22:43.:22:52.

with her family on the other side of the world and she didn't know

:22:53.:22:56.

what to do. Your relationship with Amanda has

:22:57.:22:58.

kind of been characterised in the media as her sometimes

:22:59.:23:02.

as being this femme fatale, this very dominant character,

:23:03.:23:05.

and you being more quiet and just Even after a few days,

:23:06.:23:09.

I was very attached to her because I found her

:23:10.:23:30.

good, very good to me. It would be really stupid

:23:31.:23:34.

to think about that. You mean, to be loyal,

:23:35.:23:43.

to have some misplaced loyalty to someone just

:23:44.:23:46.

because you loved them? Another man, Rudy Guede,

:23:47.:23:50.

was convicted of the murder. But some still claim others

:23:51.:24:05.

were involved, too. Sollecito says legal fees

:24:06.:24:08.

cost his family over $1 million and they still owe

:24:09.:24:11.

hundreds of thousands. He is not ready to

:24:12.:24:14.

let go of the past. They want to forget it,

:24:15.:24:22.

the prosecution want to forget it, So I will bring it until the truth

:24:23.:24:24.

about what they did, What is your relationship

:24:25.:24:35.

with Amanda now? We don't talk too much

:24:36.:24:39.

because we are very distant and we are hearing about our lives,

:24:40.:24:48.

so there is nothing to say You had your entire life turned

:24:49.:24:51.

upside down by something that What, if anything, has that

:24:52.:25:04.

experience taught you? You only have power in your

:25:05.:25:12.

decisions, you can make decisions each time and each decision can

:25:13.:25:18.

bring you more powerful I don't think about

:25:19.:25:22.

my future in my life I just think about here,

:25:23.:25:36.

what I have to do next month. For me, whatever happens after next

:25:37.:25:48.

month, even the world can be destroyed, but I didn't think

:25:49.:25:53.

about next year or anything. Two days after the first

:25:54.:26:00.

Presidential Debate, Donald Trump has apparently decided

:26:01.:26:02.

not to wing the next one, but to prepare -

:26:03.:26:06.

and, taking a leaf out of Jeremy Corbyn's approach to PMQs,

:26:07.:26:09.

he is crowdsourcing ideas in his sparkily titled

:26:10.:26:12.

Second Debate Preparation Survey, which has gone out to

:26:13.:26:15.

millions of supporters. Hillary Clinton's performance

:26:16.:26:18.

earned her a 4% fillip but, with two debates to go,

:26:19.:26:21.

Trump has promised to go harder on her, perhaps

:26:22.:26:24.

with more personal invective. I'm joined from Florida

:26:25.:26:26.

by senior Trump adviser AJ Delgado and from New York

:26:27.:26:30.

by Business Insider's Josh Barro. Good evening to both of you. We will

:26:31.:26:48.

make America great again! We will fix it together! Good evening. Josh

:26:49.:27:04.

Barro, during the debate when they form Miss Universe's name came up,

:27:05.:27:09.

Donald Trump stumbled over that and there was an issue about that. What

:27:10.:27:18.

impact did that have? This was a trap that Hillary Clinton set for

:27:19.:27:22.

Donald Trump and was reporting in advance that among the things she

:27:23.:27:26.

was doing was consulting with a team of psychologists to find ways of

:27:27.:27:31.

needle Donald Trump and draw out self damaging reactions from him.

:27:32.:27:36.

One thing about Donald Trump is when you criticise him he cannot let go

:27:37.:27:39.

of the thing you criticised him for and he has to fight back, even if it

:27:40.:27:42.

means fighting over an issue he would probably be better off not

:27:43.:27:47.

fighting at all. This was Miss Universe 20 years ago, back when he

:27:48.:27:51.

owned the pageant and she put on some weight as Miss Universe and

:27:52.:27:54.

Donald Trump made a number of crude public comments about the weight

:27:55.:27:59.

gain, Collingwood things like Miss Piggy and Miss housekeeping and she

:28:00.:28:03.

brought -- brought television reporters to watch are working hard

:28:04.:28:07.

to lose the weight and the next morning, instead of talking about

:28:08.:28:10.

trade and making America great again, Donald Trump goes around on

:28:11.:28:13.

television talking about how unfair it was to criticise him over this

:28:14.:28:18.

and was terrible working with her when she was Miss Universe and it

:28:19.:28:21.

was a problem she put on so much weight, it is a dumb argument to

:28:22.:28:25.

have when running for president but Hillary Clinton knew that if she

:28:26.:28:28.

brought this up he would not be able to let it go. And here he is on Fox.

:28:29.:28:32.

Talking about this again. TRUMP: She was a Miss Universe

:28:33.:28:34.

contestant and, ultimately, a winner who they had a tremendously

:28:35.:28:37.

difficult time with She was the winner and she gained

:28:38.:28:40.

a massive amount of weight. And we had a real problem

:28:41.:28:50.

with her, so... You are one of the senior advisers,

:28:51.:29:09.

was that about a lack of preparedness to do with this and

:29:10.:29:14.

also an idea that actually would harm him if he repeated the idea

:29:15.:29:19.

that she had gained a lot of weight? I must push back with something that

:29:20.:29:25.

Josh said, he said Mr Trump had publicly made crude remarks calling

:29:26.:29:30.

her Miss Piggy and that is actually untrue, that is simply an allegation

:29:31.:29:36.

and she claims that Mr Trump used those remarks when referring to her

:29:37.:29:41.

in private. Megan Kelly of Fox News Astro this week, are there any

:29:42.:29:46.

witnesses that heard Mr Trump calling you Miss Piggy? And she put

:29:47.:29:51.

an answer, there are no witnesses, this is purely an allegation by a

:29:52.:29:57.

woman who has quite a questionable character, she apparently threatened

:29:58.:30:00.

to kill a federal judge in Venezuela according to a judge their and was

:30:01.:30:03.

accused of driving the getaway car... We cannot really deal with

:30:04.:30:10.

that. I watched the clip on American television and she did not say

:30:11.:30:15.

whether or not she was called Miss Piggy but what Megan Kelly asked was

:30:16.:30:20.

about the eating disorder that she had and the subsequent weight gain.

:30:21.:30:22.

You said, as a result of what he said to you,

:30:23.:30:25.

you developed an eating disorder, bulimia and anorexia.

:30:26.:30:29.

But you had said publicly at the time

:30:30.:30:32.

that you suffered from both of those eating disorders prior to the Miss

:30:33.:30:37.

No, no, never, never prior to the Miss

:30:38.:30:43.

I never had any problem before Miss Universe.

:30:44.:30:48.

Megan Kelly went on to show her the Washington Post in which she had

:30:49.:31:10.

talked about having a eating disorder before the contest. What

:31:11.:31:19.

about that strategy about, is there not a duty of care in the Clinton

:31:20.:31:23.

campaign about bouncing her into the middle of the campaign? She has been

:31:24.:31:29.

very willing to be out there and assertive and she has been talking

:31:30.:31:33.

before this debate. I don't think that she has been drawn into this

:31:34.:31:38.

unwillingly. Even AJ is getting drawn into the track of litigating

:31:39.:31:43.

this story. There is no tape of him calling her Miss picky but there is

:31:44.:31:47.

take of him saying things like, this is a person who really likes to eat.

:31:48.:31:52.

There is a long record of Donald Trump talking in a crude way about

:31:53.:31:55.

the physical appearance of women not just in the context of beauty

:31:56.:32:02.

pageants, including one of his opponents in the Republican primary.

:32:03.:32:06.

He said she had an ugly face. He said, look at that face. That was

:32:07.:32:14.

the grimace she had on her face. The fight we are having to have is, did

:32:15.:32:19.

because her eating disorder or did she already had it? We shouldn't be

:32:20.:32:25.

litigating this. That's what I'm saying. It all goes to Donald

:32:26.:32:30.

Trump's terrible character. UR advising Donald Trump. We know he

:32:31.:32:38.

will perhaps have different tactics for the next debate and he might go

:32:39.:32:42.

after Hillary Clinton ardour. Would you advise him to go after her

:32:43.:32:47.

personal issues, getting her to talk about Bill Clinton's infidelities

:32:48.:32:53.

and her supposed enabling of it? No, I do believe that we should focus on

:32:54.:33:00.

the records. I think that's what the public wants. Speaking about his

:33:01.:33:04.

record on women, this is somebody who elevated to top positions in his

:33:05.:33:08.

company women, both as chief lawyer and cheap contract at Trump towers.

:33:09.:33:13.

I would love to see them focus on his record on a number of issues,

:33:14.:33:22.

and leave out the personal matters. How should Hillary play this? Next

:33:23.:33:26.

one is a town hall. They don't know what is coming at them. She has to

:33:27.:33:31.

make sure she doesn't look too prepared. I don't think she looks

:33:32.:33:35.

too prepared in the first debate. I thought it went well for her to be

:33:36.:33:41.

prepared. The Callum Hall format is favourable to Hillary Clinton. She

:33:42.:33:45.

has experience of it. -- town hall format. The events where she does

:33:46.:33:49.

best are those where she interacts directly with voters and be seen

:33:50.:33:53.

listening to them. She started her political career with a listening

:33:54.:33:56.

tour of upstate New York which was mocked and sub -- until it worked.

:33:57.:34:04.

She had a perfect strategy in the first debate. It doesn't sound from

:34:05.:34:08.

press reports like Donald Trump has decided to prepare an effective way

:34:09.:34:12.

for this debate and I think he will come in angry about the way the

:34:13.:34:16.

first debate was received, likely to try and litigate the items from the

:34:17.:34:21.

first debate again and I think we will get my head over personal

:34:22.:34:24.

things. He congratulated himself for not bringing up your Clinton's

:34:25.:34:29.

marital infidelities, but when you say, look how great it was that I

:34:30.:34:33.

didn't talk about it and then did he said was true then you sent talking

:34:34.:34:37.

point out saying, how to discuss this, you don't get any credit for

:34:38.:34:43.

not bringing up. Those talking points that were leaked were not

:34:44.:34:49.

written by Mr Trump. It isn't him sending out talking points. They are

:34:50.:34:55.

from the campaign, right? So Mr Trump doesn't control his campaign?

:34:56.:35:03.

He isn't asking us personally to go after Hillary Clinton and her

:35:04.:35:08.

husband's infidelities, no. Come on! This idea that the actions of one's

:35:09.:35:13.

campaign staff doesn't count as actions under half of one. That is a

:35:14.:35:16.

new one. Thank you. Big Brother Is Watching

:35:17.:35:17.

You entered the lexicon after the publication

:35:18.:35:19.

of Nineteen Eighty-Four, for state surveillance,

:35:20.:35:21.

and it was about one-way traffic. But would it be more

:35:22.:35:25.

accurate to change that now We're all at it - cyclists,

:35:26.:35:28.

snooping parents, police officers. Here's our man in a headcam,

:35:29.:35:31.

our technology editor When CCTV made an willing reality

:35:32.:35:45.

stars of us all, the power was all in the hands of the people who owned

:35:46.:35:50.

the cameras. Shops, councils, government and the police.

:35:51.:35:55.

Technology created a panopticon for us all to live in, at least in

:35:56.:36:02.

public. But, as Jeremy Bentham, the design of the panopticon prison,

:36:03.:36:04.

where the inmates are in sight of God at all times, new, it isn't

:36:05.:36:12.

necessary for anybody to be watching to have an effect. -- insight of

:36:13.:36:14.

guards. In Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four,

:36:15.:36:15.

Big Brother controlled minds with the mere possibility

:36:16.:36:17.

of being watched. "You had to live - did live,

:36:18.:36:18.

from habit that became instinct - in the assumption that every sound

:36:19.:36:22.

you made was overheard, and, except in darkness,

:36:23.:36:24.

every movement scrutinised." As the French philosopher

:36:25.:36:26.

Michel Foucault noted... "Surveillance is permanent

:36:27.:36:28.

in its effects, even if it is However, the evidence of now decades

:36:29.:36:44.

worth of mass surveillance doesn't appear to back up this theory. We

:36:45.:36:50.

presumed some type of magic would happen. If you put magic -- cameras

:36:51.:36:58.

on posts that crime would disappear. It didn't happen and we have cameras

:36:59.:37:02.

everywhere that cost vast amounts of money and we don't see the necessary

:37:03.:37:07.

drop in crime. Two technologies, though, that ended the monopoly of

:37:08.:37:12.

surveillance. The first, the smartphone, putting the power to

:37:13.:37:16.

record reality in more or less every personal pocket. The other is social

:37:17.:37:22.

media, allowing that footage to go global, even without convincing

:37:23.:37:24.

traditional broadcasters it is worth airing. One academic has called this

:37:25.:37:36.

not surveillance, meaning from above, but sousveillance, from

:37:37.:37:39.

below. We have seen lots of bees from police shootings in the US,

:37:40.:37:44.

through to unjustifiably heavy-handed reactions from police.

:37:45.:37:49.

Without the footage, they would never have been believed. Just last

:37:50.:37:57.

week, a London driver recorded this. Get out of the car! He says it was a

:37:58.:38:05.

case of mistaken identity. The officer involved is now on

:38:06.:38:09.

restricted duties. Look what you are doing to my car. I bought a license

:38:10.:38:14.

and insurance. The police have responded with more surveillance,

:38:15.:38:18.

body cameras, recording incidents from their point of view. They have

:38:19.:38:23.

the added twist of a screen at the front so the person being filmed by

:38:24.:38:28.

the officer can see their own image, so now everyone's behaviour is being

:38:29.:38:33.

changed, the public filming the police and the police filming the

:38:34.:38:36.

public. According to a study published today, body cameras have

:38:37.:38:43.

reduced complaints against the police by 93%, but cameras also

:38:44.:38:46.

allow members of the public to become crime-fighters. Some people

:38:47.:38:54.

call me the equaliser. A vigilante cyclist doing what he says the

:38:55.:38:59.

police won't. I have called road rage is, mobile phone users... .Txt

:39:00.:39:07.

and drive when you have a kid in your car.

:39:08.:39:09.

It is the illusion that somehow we're doing something by merely

:39:10.:39:11.

recording and then hoping to post that on a social network

:39:12.:39:14.

A case of pursuing justice against an abuse by an authority,

:39:15.:39:19.

And the simple act of the recording is merely the first step.

:39:20.:39:24.

And again, what we need are the systems within

:39:25.:39:26.

We need the oversight systems to make sure that

:39:27.:39:30.

We are rapidly moving towards a world where everyone is recording

:39:31.:39:48.

everything all the time. Does it make for a more safe or even more

:39:49.:39:50.

polite society or if it just another source of stress and annoyance?

:39:51.:39:54.

That's almost it for tonight, but before we go...

:39:55.:39:56.

Election debates are usually fertile territory for budding

:39:57.:39:58.

and the Presidential Debates in the US this week were no exception.

:39:59.:40:02.

We leave you tonight with the brainchild of the YouTube

:40:03.:40:04.

Instantly forgettable, or a new dance craze for the nation?

:40:05.:40:09.

It's the Hillary Clinton Shimmy Song.

:40:10.:40:12.

# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, HRC.

:40:13.:40:18.

# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, HRC.

:40:19.:40:40.

# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, Hillary.

:40:41.:40:42.

# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, HRC.

:40:43.:40:44.

# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, Hillary.

:40:45.:40:46.

# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, HRC.

:40:47.:40:48.

# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, Hillary.

:40:49.:40:49.

# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, HRC.

:40:50.:40:52.

# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, Hillary.

:40:53.:40:53.

# Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy.

:40:54.:40:59.

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