27/10/2016 Newsnight


27/10/2016

Kirsty Wark discusses the disclosures about problems within the independent child sexual abuse inquiry. Plus the prospect of a post-Brexit customs union and Trump's ghost writer.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 27/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

It's seen two of its top figures quit in as many months.

:00:00.:00:07.

Tonight, new disclosures about problems at the heart

:00:08.:00:10.

of the independent child sexual abuse inquiry.

:00:11.:00:14.

Also tonight, the first British TV interview with the man who created

:00:15.:00:18.

the image of Donald Trump with the book The Art of the Deal

:00:19.:00:22.

and who is now doing everything in his power to stop him getting

:00:23.:00:25.

He was sociopathic in the classic sense.

:00:26.:00:31.

Telling a lie did not bother him one bit.

:00:32.:00:40.

Shame, sex, honour and blackmail, how modern technology is making

:00:41.:00:43.

the lives of women in some conservative societies

:00:44.:00:44.

The video I received shows me with my husband, naked, having sex.

:00:45.:00:57.

He told me, "I was filming the whole time.

:00:58.:00:59.

It's been a turbulent few months for the Independent Inquiry

:01:00.:01:17.

It's seen the resignations of a third chairwoman

:01:18.:01:21.

The circumstances surrounding the departure of both

:01:22.:01:24.

figures remain hazy, to say the least.

:01:25.:01:30.

But tonight Newsnight can reveal that the inquiry

:01:31.:01:33.

faces its potentially most challenging criticism yet,

:01:34.:01:37.

that it was aware of an allegation that a leading figure on the inquiry

:01:38.:01:41.

had sexually assaulted a colleague, but was allowed to resign

:01:42.:01:44.

Jake Morris has this exclusive report.

:01:45.:01:58.

The independent enquiry into child sexual abuse was set up to

:01:59.:02:04.

investigate claims that a raft of institutions from police to the BBC

:02:05.:02:10.

had swept serious allegations under the carpet for decades. The

:02:11.:02:15.

departure of the enquiry's third share, Dame Lowell Goddard, who

:02:16.:02:20.

denies making racist remarks, has left politicians having to fend off

:02:21.:02:25.

charges they too have swept away serious claims. There were stories

:02:26.:02:30.

about the enquiry and individuals related to the enquiry but the Home

:02:31.:02:34.

Secretary cannot intervene on the basis of suspicion all rumour or

:02:35.:02:44.

hearsay. Now the enquiry faces a potentially more serious allegation.

:02:45.:02:47.

Newsnight has heard of a claim a senior figure on the enquiry

:02:48.:02:51.

sexually assaulted a colleague. It seems an investigation into that

:02:52.:02:56.

senior figure's behaviour has been quietly shelved. He resigned but is

:02:57.:03:01.

working at home on a hand over document to his successor and in

:03:02.:03:06.

that time the enquiry will pay him around ?55,000. It goes to the heart

:03:07.:03:11.

of what responsibility and organisation has to act on suspicion

:03:12.:03:15.

of wrongdoing, even in cases where it appears the alleged victim did

:03:16.:03:19.

not want to make an official complaint. The incident at the

:03:20.:03:23.

centre of the story is alleged to have taken place in the enquiry's

:03:24.:03:29.

headquarters. In early September, two colleagues, one male, one

:03:30.:03:34.

female, entered Millbank Tower and took the lift to the enquiry offices

:03:35.:03:40.

on the 23rd floor. Inside the lift, the man allegedly pushes the woman

:03:41.:03:45.

against the side of the lift and gropes her between the legs. That

:03:46.:03:50.

same day, the alleged victim gave an account of the incident. Newsnight

:03:51.:03:56.

understands in late September, the enquiry chair Alexis Jay and her

:03:57.:04:00.

panel became aware of it. They had serious concerns over the conduct of

:04:01.:04:06.

this man, Ben Emmerson, deputy High Court judge, a barrister of the year

:04:07.:04:11.

and most senior barrister on the entire enquiry. Now he had been

:04:12.:04:15.

named in the account of the alleged sexual assault. At the time the

:04:16.:04:21.

circumstances of the departure of Lowell Goddard put the enquiry under

:04:22.:04:30.

scrutiny. The victim did not want to make a formal complaint. The trouble

:04:31.:04:35.

spilled into the open with the Times reporting Ben Emmerson was

:04:36.:04:40.

considering quitting as lead counsel. That evening he was

:04:41.:04:44.

suspended. Alexis Jay said... Ben Emmerson said the first he knew

:04:45.:05:01.

of his suspension was when he was contacted by the media. Just over 24

:05:02.:05:06.

hours later more news from the enquiry. Ben Emmerson, the most

:05:07.:05:12.

senior lawyer working for the independent enquiry into historical

:05:13.:05:15.

child sexual abuse in England and Wales has resigned. It looked like

:05:16.:05:19.

the enquiry had got its way and whatever problems there may had been

:05:20.:05:24.

with Ben Emmerson, they would be no longer. Suggestions the tension of

:05:25.:05:29.

the previous night had been forgotten. He said in his letter...

:05:30.:05:40.

No reference was made to his suspension. 24 hours after

:05:41.:05:47.

suspending Ben Emmerson, the professor gave a tribute, she

:05:48.:05:49.

said... Furthermore she endorsed his

:05:50.:05:55.

reasoning for his departure. Again, there was no reference to his

:05:56.:06:14.

suspension or any concerns about his leadership and no suggestion that

:06:15.:06:19.

any investigation continues. Why was Ben Emmerson suspended? He is being

:06:20.:06:26.

paid ?1700 a day by the enquiry until the end of November. In terms

:06:27.:06:30.

of what happened, the enquiry will not say. I cannot discuss anything

:06:31.:06:37.

to do with his circumstances. The problem for the enquiry is that it

:06:38.:06:42.

is all a bit too convenient. The handling of the departure of the

:06:43.:06:45.

third chair appears similar. Lowell Goddard was we were led to believe

:06:46.:06:50.

homesick but reports in the Times newspaper painted a picture of

:06:51.:06:54.

dysfunction with her at the helm and even claims of racism. Again the

:06:55.:06:59.

enquiry says the details are private. Newsnight spoke to someone

:07:00.:07:03.

close to the enquiry who paints a picture of a broken institution. One

:07:04.:07:08.

that is so dysfunctional that if people needed to raise concerns, is

:07:09.:07:13.

the culture made it impossible for them to do so. It described the

:07:14.:07:18.

departure of Ben Emmerson as a kind of cover up the enquiry should

:07:19.:07:22.

uncover and until it can confront the reality of what has happened

:07:23.:07:27.

inside it, it will struggle to investigate others. The allegation

:07:28.:07:31.

of sexual assault is of course unproven. Newsnight has only named

:07:32.:07:35.

Ben Emmerson because it would be impossible to tell the story

:07:36.:07:40.

otherwise. His legal representative said his client denied any claim of

:07:41.:07:44.

wrong doing. The child abuse enquiry said...

:07:45.:08:00.

Newsnight has contacted the alleged victim of the sexual assault. Her

:08:01.:08:07.

lawyers refused to comment. Nobody ever imagines the official enquiry

:08:08.:08:11.

into child sexual abuse would have to deal with the disclosure of an

:08:12.:08:16.

alleged assault involving its own workers and handling such sensitive

:08:17.:08:19.

allegations, particularly when the alleged victim does not want matters

:08:20.:08:24.

taken further, can leave any organisation struggling to balance

:08:25.:08:28.

competing duties but some believe that by allowing Ben Emmerson to

:08:29.:08:33.

step down without proper investigation, the enquiry has left

:08:34.:08:37.

itself exposed to claims it behaves note if Ridley from those it seeks

:08:38.:08:46.

to pass judgment on. Ben Emmerson's lawyers said he categorically denies

:08:47.:08:51.

any sexual assault, any bullying or any misconduct at the enquiry and

:08:52.:08:55.

any allegations are completely false. I spoke to a Labour MP who

:08:56.:09:02.

has previously raised questions about the enquiry. It is the latest

:09:03.:09:11.

and probably the most serious to date of a series of allegations that

:09:12.:09:16.

have emerged in recent weeks. The allegations date back not just over

:09:17.:09:20.

recent months but some considerable time and paint a picture of an

:09:21.:09:25.

enquiry that was setup in order to shine a spotlight on institutions

:09:26.:09:32.

that had become by denial, secrecy and cover-up. Taking on some of

:09:33.:09:38.

those characteristics itself. I think the latest allegations raise

:09:39.:09:42.

serious questions of confidence for survivors and if this enquiry is to

:09:43.:09:47.

succeed, which it must, it must proceed on a different basis based

:09:48.:09:53.

on transparency and openness and the ability of people who raised

:09:54.:09:58.

concerns to be heard. To be fair to the enquiry, the alleged victim did

:09:59.:10:03.

not want this investigated. Did the enquiry really do anything wrong? It

:10:04.:10:08.

seems inconceivable given the scale of the dysfunction that has now been

:10:09.:10:14.

revealed in enquiry over several months and the seriousness of these

:10:15.:10:18.

allegations that there were not a number of people who were working on

:10:19.:10:22.

all connected to the enquiry who were aware of the allegations. It

:10:23.:10:28.

seems to me the Home Office has serious questions to answer as to

:10:29.:10:33.

the level of oversight of this enquiry. It is on its fourth chair

:10:34.:10:38.

in two years. They have lost five senior legal counsel during that

:10:39.:10:45.

time and is well as being of profound importance of the country

:10:46.:10:49.

there are huge questions of public money involved in these decisions.

:10:50.:10:53.

You talked about the confidence of survivors and victims. Diouf think

:10:54.:10:58.

the whole thing needs to start again? A new chair has been

:10:59.:11:07.

appointed -- do you think? Going forward the enquiry needs

:11:08.:11:12.

transparency, openness, a willingness to hear when problems

:11:13.:11:15.

occur and treat people properly and support them to be able to blow the

:11:16.:11:19.

whistle and make sure those concerns are acted on and what we have got is

:11:20.:11:26.

a series of allegations about very serious goings on in this enquiry

:11:27.:11:31.

that don't appear to have been acted upon by ministers over a long period

:11:32.:11:36.

of time, these being the latest. Some of the individuals concerned in

:11:37.:11:40.

these allegations are still being paid by the enquiry using public

:11:41.:11:47.

money and that is why we need ministers to come clean about what

:11:48.:11:52.

they knew and why no action has been taken and to constitute the enquiry

:11:53.:11:54.

on a different basis. Thanks. Today saw two of the most solid

:11:55.:11:56.

pieces of good economic news Growth figures today

:11:57.:11:59.

were better than expected, 0.5% as opposed to expected 0.3%,

:12:00.:12:04.

and the government announced that not only is Nissan

:12:05.:12:06.

staying put in Sunderland, there will be two new models

:12:07.:12:09.

on the production line, Both the government and Nissan

:12:10.:12:11.

insist no sweetheart deals have been done but does today's announcement

:12:12.:12:17.

indicate that the car industry is going to be judged a special

:12:18.:12:21.

case in EU negotiations? And if so, what other sectors might

:12:22.:12:25.

be in the same boat? Well, our policy editor,

:12:26.:12:27.

Chris Cook, is here along You have received information about

:12:28.:12:42.

the conversations between the government and this. We have gone

:12:43.:12:47.

from the chief of Nissan raising questions about its future in the UK

:12:48.:12:52.

to the vote of confidence today. As I understand it this and has heard

:12:53.:12:56.

three messages in meetings with government ministers and officials

:12:57.:13:02.

that have given it confidence it can compete with European rivals once

:13:03.:13:06.

the UK leaves the EU. They have been told, look at the substance of what

:13:07.:13:11.

the Prime Minister is saying about the EU and Brexit. Yes, she says she

:13:12.:13:16.

is taking the UK out and taking back control of the immigration and the

:13:17.:13:23.

ECJ will not have jurisdiction over the UK, but she is saying she wants

:13:24.:13:28.

to trade freely within the single market which means the strongest

:13:29.:13:32.

access with the single market outside membership. Secondly a

:13:33.:13:37.

question mark has been placed over whether there is a hard Brexit there

:13:38.:13:41.

would be tariffs on the Nissan car is going to Europe. Think of the

:13:42.:13:47.

Audis, BMWs, coming from the consulate to hear, would they want

:13:48.:13:51.

tariffs placed on them? And the icing on the cake, the government

:13:52.:13:55.

has said to Nissan we are proud of our industrial strategy and at the

:13:56.:14:00.

top of the list of priorities will be the car industry and new

:14:01.:14:05.

technology, driverless and electric cars. Who is investing in those?

:14:06.:14:12.

Nissan. And in the past with new technology, you have had tax

:14:13.:14:16.

subsidies you have been able to do under state aid rules and possibly

:14:17.:14:20.

it will not be trade distorting. They have been left with no specific

:14:21.:14:27.

commitments. It is worth thinking about why is it the government

:14:28.:14:32.

cannot just say if they put ?1000 of tariff on this and we would pay

:14:33.:14:38.

?1000 a head, why not go for that? It is the words trade distorting. If

:14:39.:14:44.

we negotiate a deal with the EU, good market terms, we will not want

:14:45.:14:51.

to appear to subsidise the industry. Secondly there are rules through the

:14:52.:14:57.

WTO about trade distorting subsidies. The system works in that

:14:58.:15:03.

we should aim for fewer subsidies and fewer tariffs. None of this

:15:04.:15:08.

makes sense if the government stays within one piece of the EU

:15:09.:15:12.

infrastructure, the so-called customs union. Leaving the customs

:15:13.:15:17.

union is a complicated thing which imposes costs on business. We're

:15:18.:15:22.

having this conversation because leaving the customs union would be

:15:23.:15:26.

expensive. Why would the government do it? We have made a to explain

:15:27.:15:28.

exactly that. A major argument for Brexit

:15:29.:15:32.

was that our businesses should manufacture more goods and sell them

:15:33.:15:35.

to far-flung places. A major argument for Brexit

:15:36.:15:41.

was that our businesses should So, why is it then that there

:15:42.:15:45.

is still discussion of Britain continuing to follow a big chunk

:15:46.:15:47.

of EU trade policy? There's some talk here in Whitehall

:15:48.:15:50.

about whether Britain might join what's called a customs union

:15:51.:15:54.

with the EU. And what it means is that Turkey can

:15:55.:15:58.

sell goods into the EU and buy goods from the EU without them having

:15:59.:16:06.

to go through bureaucratic and onerous customs checks,

:16:07.:16:08.

or having to pay tariffs. To be part of a customs union

:16:09.:16:11.

with the EU means having to adopt the EU's policies and tariffs

:16:12.:16:18.

on trade from anywhere So joining the customs

:16:19.:16:20.

union would really tie the hands of Liam Fox,

:16:21.:16:26.

our International Trade Secretary, who wants to cut a range of exciting

:16:27.:16:29.

new deals with new trading partners The advantages of staying

:16:30.:16:32.

inside the customs union are clear when you come to a wine

:16:33.:16:38.

warehouse like this one. The inventory here comes

:16:39.:16:41.

from all over the world. Everything inside this

:16:42.:16:45.

warehouse has already gone But how intensive that

:16:46.:16:50.

process is depends on where If it comes from inside the EU

:16:51.:16:55.

customs union, then it's If it's come from outside the EU

:16:56.:17:01.

customs union, though, it's a much more onerous process

:17:02.:17:06.

to sell into the EU, and that's something worth

:17:07.:17:09.

considering when we're talking about whether the UK

:17:10.:17:13.

should stay inside the EU So to import a case of wine into UK

:17:14.:17:16.

from an EU countries such as France, there is a simple entry

:17:17.:17:24.

into a computer system. This is just basically so HMRC can

:17:25.:17:27.

make sure the tax is paid? Yes, there is a track on tax

:17:28.:17:30.

and what has been received. However, if they are importing

:17:31.:17:33.

from outside the EU, someone is bringing wine

:17:34.:17:35.

in from Australia or Israel, there will be a VI1 form,

:17:36.:17:40.

it is called, which is the analytical details of the wine

:17:41.:17:43.

plus the certificate of origin. So this sort of proves

:17:44.:17:54.

where the wine has come from. This is entered for every

:17:55.:17:56.

single wine producer. And then we still need

:17:57.:17:59.

an entry of this, as well, in order to get the stock

:18:00.:18:03.

into the warehouse here. So there is much more paperwork

:18:04.:18:06.

if you bring the wine in from outside the EU

:18:07.:18:08.

than if it is coming Absolutely, yes,

:18:09.:18:11.

there is a lot more. Some of that paperwork relates

:18:12.:18:13.

to health and environmental Some, though, relates

:18:14.:18:15.

to the so-called rules of origin, which, if Britain gets a free

:18:16.:18:20.

trade deal with the EU, The EU has different tariffs

:18:21.:18:22.

for different countries and the rules of origin ensure that

:18:23.:18:26.

you are charged the tariff Just to give you an example,

:18:27.:18:28.

suppose there is a Chinese toy that is shipped

:18:29.:18:34.

to the United Kingdom and then What the European Union wants

:18:35.:18:36.

to ensure is it charges the Chinese tariff on it and not the tariff that

:18:37.:18:42.

applies to the UK, And if we leave the customs union,

:18:43.:18:46.

our products would also have to comply with these rules of origin

:18:47.:18:51.

when they are shipped It is one thing being outside

:18:52.:18:54.

a customs union when you deal in bottles of wine,

:18:55.:18:59.

but being outside would have been a big consideration for Nissan,

:19:00.:19:04.

who make cars in Britain Each piece might need

:19:05.:19:06.

to be origin certified. And Nissan might face tariffs

:19:07.:19:11.

on goods sold back into the EU. Being inside the customs union

:19:12.:19:20.

would also make it easier to maintain a soft border

:19:21.:19:22.

with the Republic of Ireland. It's something the government

:19:23.:19:25.

is committed to to help I think the experience of Norway

:19:26.:19:27.

and Sweden would illustrate the UK could be outside of the customs

:19:28.:19:33.

union, but without a hard border. I mean, the use of technology

:19:34.:19:36.

there to mitigate the effects of a customs border by having

:19:37.:19:38.

a light touch approach to spot checks on vehicles, having

:19:39.:19:41.

numberplate recognition, forwarding documentation in advance,

:19:42.:19:45.

means that you can have the freest possible flow of goods

:19:46.:19:48.

despite having a customs Furthermore, being inside

:19:49.:19:50.

the customs union would make it very difficult for us to cut trade deals

:19:51.:19:58.

of our own. It makes us beholden to EU

:19:59.:20:01.

decisions, so politically, it cuts straight across

:20:02.:20:05.

Vote Leave's message. The outcome that trade experts most

:20:06.:20:08.

commonly predict for Britain is this, that we won't join

:20:09.:20:12.

a customs union with the EU after Brexit, but rather

:20:13.:20:15.

that the government will seek to mitigate the problems

:20:16.:20:18.

of being outside the EU's external borders through so-called mutual

:20:19.:20:22.

recognition agreements. What that means is that for specific

:20:23.:20:25.

sectors that do a lot of cross-border work,

:20:26.:20:28.

they will seek to minimise the amount of bureaucracy

:20:29.:20:31.

that they have to deal with. Well, just because you are outside

:20:32.:20:35.

the customs union doesn't necessarily mean terrible

:20:36.:20:37.

bureaucracy for everyone involved. The USA, Canada and Mexico

:20:38.:20:45.

managed to maintain across a free trade area

:20:46.:20:47.

as opposed to a customs union, so that would illustrate this kind

:20:48.:20:51.

of cross-border relationship and integrated supply chains

:20:52.:20:53.

is possible in a free trade agreement as opposed

:20:54.:20:55.

to a customs union. That's consistent with

:20:56.:20:59.

what Theresa May said here. The important point

:21:00.:21:01.

about the customs union is how you deal with the customs union

:21:02.:21:04.

is not a binary choice. There are different aspects

:21:05.:21:07.

to the customs union. That is precisely why

:21:08.:21:10.

it is important to look at the detail and get

:21:11.:21:12.

the answer right. Officials are currently fretting

:21:13.:21:14.

about how ports, notably Dover, can accommodate extra customs checks,

:21:15.:21:18.

if we do leave the customs union. Civil servants have also told

:21:19.:21:23.

Newsnight that a new customs computer system, replacing

:21:24.:21:26.

the current 22-year-old one, They fear delays well

:21:27.:21:33.

beyond the current 2018 due date. But these are the short-term costs

:21:34.:21:41.

of an attempt to become a less European and a more

:21:42.:21:44.

global trading nation. What's it like to live and breathe

:21:45.:21:47.

the same air in the same room If there was one single thing that

:21:48.:21:51.

brought Donald Trump to the attention of Americans

:21:52.:21:57.

all around the US it was a buccaneering book called

:21:58.:22:01.

The Art of The Deal, which became an instant

:22:02.:22:04.

bestseller when it was It takes the reader through all

:22:05.:22:05.

Trump's big real estate deals line by line,

:22:06.:22:11.

but he did not write a word of it. That was the job of a 30-something

:22:12.:22:15.

year old journalist Tony Schwartz, who stuck with Trump

:22:16.:22:18.

every day for more than a year, but when Trump announced his

:22:19.:22:21.

candidacy, Schwartz was horrified and decided to atone

:22:22.:22:23.

for his part in Trump's rise. And he decided to try to stop him

:22:24.:22:26.

getting to the White House. This is his first British

:22:27.:22:30.

television interview. I started by asking him how,

:22:31.:22:34.

after finishing a newspaper interview with Trump,

:22:35.:22:36.

he ended up co-writing his book. We started doing the interview and

:22:37.:22:45.

at some point he mentioned he was going to do a book, I asked him what

:22:46.:22:50.

it was and he said it was his autobiography. I said that he is

:22:51.:22:55.

only 38 years old, but he said they were paying him a lot of money to do

:22:56.:23:00.

it. I said if I were going to do that I would write a book called The

:23:01.:23:04.

Art Of The Deal because people are interested in deals and that part of

:23:05.:23:10.

him. That's funny because that was 30 something years ago. It's the

:23:11.:23:12.

best title at ever come up with. I've never matched it and it

:23:13.:23:14.

happened happened spontaneously. So do you did a deal with him

:23:15.:23:17.

and you started to write a book From the very first time I sat down

:23:18.:23:21.

with Donald Trump I quickly understood that he had an incredibly

:23:22.:23:27.

short attention span. He got irritated very

:23:28.:23:32.

quickly by questions. Had limited interest in answering

:23:33.:23:36.

them and an even more limited So when that proved

:23:37.:23:39.

impossible, what happened? What happened was, I first thought

:23:40.:23:54.

maybe I'm going to have to abandon this book and then I thought,

:23:55.:23:57.

what if I came into his office every day and he was OK with it and picked

:23:58.:24:00.

up an extension phone and just What he was doing was making

:24:01.:24:04.

deals, which is what I So I thought, I can get some of this

:24:05.:24:09.

stuff from listening and I can go and fill in the details from other

:24:10.:24:14.

people who have been So did these other people

:24:15.:24:16.

at the other end of the line know that you were on

:24:17.:24:20.

the end of the line? Yeah, I mean, if he could have had

:24:21.:24:23.

an audience of 65 countries and 50 million people

:24:24.:24:28.

listening on the calls, But having one person

:24:29.:24:30.

listening in was great. In a way, you were very much partly

:24:31.:24:36.

responsible for the man that we see Yeah, I think I created a version

:24:37.:24:40.

of Donald Trump that was far more But did you actually in the course

:24:41.:24:47.

of that see him do bad things? He treated people very dismissively,

:24:48.:25:02.

he was intimidating, he was a bully. It was very clear that he lacked

:25:03.:25:06.

whatever it is that allows a person to be caring and compassionate,

:25:07.:25:12.

or even reasonably kind. I watched him behave badly

:25:13.:25:17.

and I also became aware, and this is the most important

:25:18.:25:21.

thing about Donald Trump, He was sociopathic

:25:22.:25:26.

in the classic sense. Telling a lie didn't

:25:27.:25:33.

bother him one bit. His idea of what to say

:25:34.:25:37.

was what he thought would work. If it happened to be true,

:25:38.:25:41.

fine but if it wasn't Not only didn't ask me about myself,

:25:42.:25:44.

he didn't know my name, When he called my home,

:25:45.:25:55.

which he would do once or twice a night, my wife would often answer

:25:56.:26:04.

and in a year and a half, he never got to know her name,

:26:05.:26:10.

he never got to know, I guess he might have known that

:26:11.:26:13.

I had kids but he didn't The normal social graces

:26:14.:26:16.

you would expect from a human being who you are deeply involved

:26:17.:26:19.

with were utterly absent. When did you realise

:26:20.:26:27.

things were going awry? Was it when he said

:26:28.:26:29.

he was going to stand? You know when I realised

:26:30.:26:32.

things were going awry? When he came down the escalator

:26:33.:26:35.

at Trump Tower to announce that he was going to run

:26:36.:26:44.

for president, to everybody's The very first thing or second thing

:26:45.:26:46.

he said was, "We need a president who wrote

:26:47.:26:51.

The Art Of The Deal." And I thought, I don't

:26:52.:26:53.

want to be president! But it really struck me that

:26:54.:26:55.

if he was going to start out his presidential campaign saying

:26:56.:27:03.

something that was not only completely false,

:27:04.:27:05.

I wrote every word of that book. I believe he read it,

:27:06.:27:08.

he certainly didn't have anything If he was going to lie about that,

:27:09.:27:15.

my belief was, wow, he's going to lie about anything

:27:16.:27:20.

because it is completely provable You're now advising

:27:21.:27:22.

the Hillary Clinton campaign. Is this because you feel the need

:27:23.:27:25.

to atone for The Art Of The Deal? Well I absolutely feel the need

:27:26.:27:28.

to atone for it. If Donald Trump were to win

:27:29.:27:31.

the election, I don't think he's going to,

:27:32.:27:34.

but if he were to win the election, I would take it seriously enough

:27:35.:27:39.

to move out of the United States. A lots of people say that

:27:40.:27:42.

but I would do it. I'm not going to put myself

:27:43.:27:45.

in harm's way, if this man has the tools of government to use

:27:46.:27:51.

against his enemies. This is quite extreme,

:27:52.:27:53.

you really feel you would have I've got my whole

:27:54.:27:59.

family ready to do it. In all that time, was there anything

:28:00.:28:04.

that ever happened to make you think, this guy isn't so bad,

:28:05.:28:07.

he's quite a good guy? You know, I spent a love of my life

:28:08.:28:10.

trying to understand the human potential, what is possible

:28:11.:28:20.

for a human being. My predisposition is to believe that

:28:21.:28:23.

all human beings are complex and there is no such thing

:28:24.:28:27.

as pure goodness any more Having said that, I've been asked

:28:28.:28:31.

this question multiple times and it made me uncomfortable,

:28:32.:28:41.

the first several times because I couldn't come

:28:42.:28:43.

up with something. Now what I realise is,

:28:44.:28:48.

one quality that he has that has obviously been incredibly useful

:28:49.:28:54.

is a relentlessness. Donald Trump will come

:28:55.:28:59.

at you and at you and at you, It's why he can tell something,

:29:00.:29:03.

say something that is patently and obviously untrue and get some

:29:04.:29:11.

percentage of the people If you could imagine that quality

:29:12.:29:14.

being used in the service of something virtuous,

:29:15.:29:25.

I could quite imagine If we are just talking

:29:26.:29:28.

about his character, no, And if you enjoyed that then a full

:29:29.:29:32.

version of that interview can be Let's talk now to commentator

:29:33.:29:42.

and Donald Trump supporter Charlotte Laws, who joins us

:29:43.:29:45.

from Los Angeles. Good evening to you. Tony Schwartz

:29:46.:29:57.

has probably spent more time close up and personal with Donald Trump

:29:58.:30:00.

and many people have including yourself. And he paints a pretty

:30:01.:30:06.

damning picture. Do you recognise elements of the picture?

:30:07.:30:11.

I think Tony Schwartz is somebody who is a disgruntled ex-employee who

:30:12.:30:20.

is looking for 15 minutes of fame and is a strong Hillary Clinton

:30:21.:30:23.

supporter. I think he is right when he says Donald Trump as personal

:30:24.:30:30.

servants, a positive quality. As for a lot of -- he has perseverance.

:30:31.:30:36.

Many people who have known Donald Trump decades will say the opposite,

:30:37.:30:41.

that he will be a wonderful president, he is reflective, he is

:30:42.:30:45.

kind and caring and gives to charity and gives to people when no one

:30:46.:30:51.

knows about it. Even people like Bill O'Reilly or Sean Kennedy with

:30:52.:30:55.

no Donald Trump for decades and they will say he will be a great

:30:56.:31:01.

president. I have met Mr Trump on three occasions and have had nice

:31:02.:31:04.

conversations and have nothing but positive things to say about those

:31:05.:31:10.

experiences. Tony Schwartz says he is a liar he keeps online and what

:31:11.:31:15.

is truth or fiction is of no consequence if it makes an impact.

:31:16.:31:20.

If that is halfway true, is that a pretty damning indication of what he

:31:21.:31:25.

would read like as President? I think he a grand negotiator and it

:31:26.:31:33.

is important for his presidency to renegotiate trade deals and bring

:31:34.:31:39.

money and jobs back to America and part of negotiating is withholding

:31:40.:31:43.

information, or exaggerating, you could argue. I think those

:31:44.:31:49.

qualities... But lying? Every politician lies, it is part of the

:31:50.:31:54.

way this system works. You could not attack someone so much for that.

:31:55.:32:00.

Hillary Clinton is commander-in-chief liar if she gets

:32:01.:32:04.

elected. It is a universal trait of politicians. Very quickly, would you

:32:05.:32:11.

trust Donald Trump with nuclear codes, because Tony Schwartz says

:32:12.:32:14.

that people should not trust him with nuclear codes. I would and he

:32:15.:32:20.

is a pacifist, he is much less likely to get into more than Hillary

:32:21.:32:26.

Clinton, he is not into nation-building, meddling into other

:32:27.:32:29.

countries and blasting people, that is not the way he operates and

:32:30.:32:34.

thinks. You can look at past interviews and talk to people who

:32:35.:32:37.

have known him and that is what they will say.

:32:38.:32:38.

On last night's programme we broadcast a film which forms part

:32:39.:32:41.

of the BBC Arabic Service's project on the impact of modern

:32:42.:32:44.

technology on one of our most basic emotions, shame,

:32:45.:32:47.

which has been ruining lives for as long as humans can remember.

:32:48.:32:51.

Traditionally it has been used as a form of social control.

:32:52.:32:53.

But in the modern era, technology has offered new ways

:32:54.:32:58.

for shame to be instilled in others - think revenge porn, for example.

:32:59.:33:01.

A problem in our relatively permissive society, but with far

:33:02.:33:05.

bigger human consequences in the more conservative societies

:33:06.:33:07.

Last night's film about shame, sex, honour and blackmail in an online

:33:08.:33:15.

world, explored the impact on men, tonight's shows how

:33:16.:33:17.

women are particularly vulnerable to blackmail.

:33:18.:37:06.

Joining me in the studio is Deeyah Khan, the Emmy and Peabody

:37:07.:37:09.

award-winning filmmaker and human rights activist.

:37:10.:37:11.

And from Kuwait is Dr Alanoud Al Sharekh, an expert in women's rights

:37:12.:37:15.

Good evening. Did anything you saw their shock you? No. I think what

:37:16.:37:32.

the internet has done for all of us in whatever field we are in is that

:37:33.:37:36.

it accent U eights everything that happens off-line. So whether that is

:37:37.:37:47.

a matter of -- accentuates. Whether that is creating revolutions,

:37:48.:37:51.

creating change or reinforcing discrimination and patriarch Lee,

:37:52.:37:55.

the internet is a part of that, so it is not shocking. -- the

:37:56.:38:03.

patriarch. The idea that technology, in this case cameras and the

:38:04.:38:07.

internet were men to liberate women and make their lives free has been

:38:08.:38:10.

turned on its head by this kind of example. There is a duality to it

:38:11.:38:19.

and so in a way, having the camera on them and being able to describe

:38:20.:38:24.

their experience and their own voice has been a big change that

:38:25.:38:30.

technology has allowed. Unfortunately it has exemplified

:38:31.:38:34.

this type of cruel and extortionate behaviour that we see happening in

:38:35.:38:41.

online blackmail. The idea that this man felt safe to do this with

:38:42.:38:47.

impunity in itself is very upsetting and unnerving for women. Yes, of

:38:48.:38:58.

course. It is also possible because of the nature of the conservative

:38:59.:39:02.

societies in this part of the world, the idea that you not only represent

:39:03.:39:08.

your own honour as an individual but the honour of your community and

:39:09.:39:12.

family makes you more like lead to put up with this behaviour then

:39:13.:39:17.

tried to raise attention around it. It is interesting that women have to

:39:18.:39:21.

put up with this behaviour. This is not exceptional? It is not. Women

:39:22.:39:29.

are constantly expected to be... To bear the burden of the honour not

:39:30.:39:37.

just of themselves but the burden of the honour of their family and

:39:38.:39:42.

community, as women who come from the backgrounds we come from we are

:39:43.:39:48.

not the owners of our own bodies and behaviours, everything we do

:39:49.:39:52.

reflects always on somebody else, and these men know that when they

:39:53.:39:59.

are exploiting. And the internet can amplify that? Absolutely, the

:40:00.:40:04.

internet can amplify the resistance against these types of norms, but it

:40:05.:40:09.

can also exemplified the discrimination and oppression and

:40:10.:40:14.

abuse that happens. You talk about traditional societies, but in this

:40:15.:40:19.

country we know that young women from all backgrounds, are called on

:40:20.:40:32.

the internet and the internet for evil is something we have not got to

:40:33.:40:36.

grips with yet. When it comes to the abuse of women in the US and

:40:37.:40:41.

England, you might not come from a Middle Eastern background and this

:40:42.:40:47.

shaming is the norm in some ways. I think the internet as much as it is

:40:48.:40:52.

a source of liberation for so many women and movements, it is an

:40:53.:40:59.

accentuation of discrimination and oppression and abuses that happen

:41:00.:41:02.

off-line but now have also extended into the platform and the world

:41:03.:41:09.

online. We also know just now there is an app by IS for selling. This is

:41:10.:41:24.

the essence of the challenge we all face, that the internet is where we

:41:25.:41:31.

can pick a lot of these challenges that we as women who come from these

:41:32.:41:35.

backgrounds, and we can use the internet to really on pick all of

:41:36.:41:44.

this. But it has become the space where we almost become destroyed.

:41:45.:41:49.

How do you suggest women countered this, that women are educated into

:41:50.:41:55.

not feeling cowed by this, particularly in Middle Eastern

:41:56.:41:59.

societies? I would save firstly there should be stronger legislation

:42:00.:42:05.

to prevent this kind of abuse online. Specifically be trolling and

:42:06.:42:13.

bullying of women. Online, when they are speaking and sharing, not only

:42:14.:42:20.

themselves, they represent a nation at times, if they are Muslim they

:42:21.:42:25.

represent their religion and there is an added layer of ambassadorship

:42:26.:42:29.

that women us to recognise and have the option to choose to reject and

:42:30.:42:36.

have their own voice as individuals online. But also because of the

:42:37.:42:41.

sensitive nature of honour in this part of the world, I think we are

:42:42.:42:48.

seeing more and more, special units that deal with online crimes and

:42:49.:42:53.

specifically blackmail. Thanks, I am afraid I will have to stop you. A

:42:54.:43:00.

final word on our exclusive story. While we were on air the inquiry

:43:01.:43:05.

said this statement, it is not true and inquiry worker made a complaint

:43:06.:43:09.

of assault to the panel or chair or official. It is worth pointing out

:43:10.:43:14.

our report did not say that a complaint had been made but rather

:43:15.:43:15.

that one had been disclosed. A final word on our exclusive story

:43:16.:43:18.

tonight on the child abuse inquiry. That's all we have time for,

:43:19.:43:25.

apart from a quick congrats to Newsnight's Katie Razzall

:43:26.:43:28.

and Yasminara Khan for winning an Asian Media Award tonight

:43:29.:43:30.

for their story about intimidation Subtle changes in the weather. Mist

:43:31.:43:44.

and fog in the south. Colder

:43:45.:43:45.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS